Back in the day, It was so brilliantly cheesy & corny that you just had to watch it again & again -- and they used to always talk about how expensive it was to make, & we were like "WHY?"
I think initially he was on board but after a while, especially towards the end of the tour he was mentally checked out. That whole thing did WAY MORE harm than good. The Pepsi accident, bad press over the ticket prices that he didn’t even agree to; I can’t even blame him. But the business of it all got in the way of what could’ve been a good thing.
@@misterDjayMDJ I totally agree. He had lot going on at the time. He was also writing songs for other artists, I believe he started working on Captain EO movie and the Bad album.
Nice breakdown. I wish Michael and Jermaine appeared. "Torture" really could've been The Jackson's next biggest music video after "Blame It On The Boogie" and "Can You Feel It."
WoW! I would have never put the two together, and this makes a lot of sense. Between The Captain EO short film and The Torture Video, even the Dangerous Pepsi, added, a lot of simularites. Now I can't un see it. Amazing!
Victory was never michael's plan , he wanted thriller tour , not a new jackson album or a jackson tour or a jackson music video , he wanted to go solo but his mother convinced him , thats why he never performed any victory songs on the tour , michael made sure that victory tour favored thriller album while simultaneously respect jackson's old songs but he kept victory out of the way , he even gave jermaine a chance only to get some rest in between the show , at the end , thriller and victory tour were huge success but same cant be said for the album , thriller was more imp to mj and i respect that , he wanted to go solo , and he did it
Not entirely true there are photos on google of Michael Jackson’s CBS/Epic contract. Prior to Thriller, but in July 1982, Michael was legally contracted to deliver his forthcoming Thriller, and a new Jackson’s album- but between December 1982 and September 1984. Of course, Motown 25 meant that they needed to have this album DONE as they also were assumed to begin a tour in Summer of 1983, a year prior to Victory, but still during the promo run of Thriller. Victory would have been somewhat completed, and Michael did have songs slated for Thriller (State of Shock, Victory) these songs were instead meant for the Victory album. I feel like Motown 25 was a catalyst for his aspirations as a solo act, and not just MJ and the Jacksons. All contractual work.
Michael didn’t want to do ANY tour after Thriller. He wanted to take a break from music, only release “short films” to promote future albums & wanted to break into Hollywood.
@@jihadthegeneral Good point. But contractually, he had to have. Look up his Triumph era interviews. In one interview (1980) He stated a solo album in 1982, then a follow up to the Jackson’s album and lastly its accompanying tour. Michael was amidst recording the Victory album (State of Shock, Victory, Be Not Always) early on in 1983 when Suzanne De Passé encouraged him to attend and participate in Motown 25. Billie Jean and Beat It shorts were filmed prior to.
When I went to the Victory Tour, the Jacksons opened the show with the Torture video on two big screens. It would be my first time watching a concert on the big screens in real time, while seeing them in person.
Great Video! I always thought that Michae was just too busy to do the video, basically still riding high off the success of Thriller, but the points you made were good!
Crazy how the music on that album and 2300 Jackson’s street just sounds like typical 80s music and sounds totally different from thriller and off the wall
Big difference in quality from a production and engineering standpoint other than State of Shock. I say the 12” extended mix of Torture is a close second musically. I have to give Jackie props on that one IMO.
I thought that 2300 Jackson Street was great despite the fact that Michael wasn't in it because the Jacksons changed their musical style and it's a shame that they didn't put out another album afterwards.
@@kimbelsimpson7535the group still owed the label a album after victory and Mike and Marlon were on the title track and they left the group after victory tour as well
I love videos like this giving backstories and all because as a new MJ fanatic (I got into his work last week Friday) I feel like there is not enough info about his career also I feel people downplay his career but I digress anyway love this can't wait to see more.
I remember those early days when I first got into Michael those were some of my best days I was 11 😂😂😂...And your right there's not enough information, but take what you can trust..
This is an EXCELLENT analysis. Maybe the thing I regret most about someone’s career having nothing to do with my own is the sandbagging of Tell Me I’m Not Dreaming. That was one of the best songs any of them ever recorded. But another interesting thing is that there were plenty of records in the early 90s that were never released as singles but promoted on radio to drive album sales. I do wonder how many albums Jermaine sold purely to fanatics like me who had to have that song.
2 things: First, I heard MJ was trying to spare himself from overexposure. Second, it seemed like he didn't wanna be bothered with his brothers anymore than he had to. MJ was checkin' out from the Jacksons. He was like, I'll do these concerts with y'all like I promised mother, but that's it! Then, I'm OUT! Peace!
Goodness, I don't often leave comments, and I don't expect you to read this, but MisterDJ, this is supreme work, I really mean it My only tiny suggestion (with only love & respect) would be to balance or slightly lower (db wise) your narration, within or around the rest of any other audio on the clip.. Aside, I applaud your work, and I bless & salute you! I've been subscribed for a minute btw, and I always look forward to your posts!
Thank you man, none taken. Getting the audio to where it needs to be has always been a tricky thing on some of my video essays. I appreciate you supporting the channel bro, thanks again for your comment and the feedback.
That is very interesting. Thank you for the video. I’ve always liked the song and I’ve even watched a video several times. I used to be scared of it as a child lol.
I almost know for sure that Jermaine would’ve worn that black sequined costume he wore at a couple of shows on the Victory Tour. He also had a spider-themed guitar to go with it. Just like the spiders/web in the video. I’m not sure what Michael would’ve worn other than the white military jacket cause that’s all they had on set for him to wear that day as far as I know. Usually he had costumes made specifically for his short films so if it was anything else it would’ve been something we’ve never seen.
Hey buddy, it's been awhile man. I hope you're doing great. I hope everything's going awesome for you. I haven't been doing so fantastic but I'm making it go buddy. Always thinking about you. Hope we can get you on one of my channels. I've been working on and talk and get your opinions on some things but outside of that nonsense just to be able to talk to you on the phone and catch up with you would be the most important. Stay awesome. Keep doing what you do. Lots of love buddy
Torture hasn't flown under the radar -- back in the day, that video & the Victory album were both HUGE deals....We all talked about whether MJ was actually in this video or not, whether it was an impersonator or wax figure...We taped the video & watched it back in slow-mo on the VCR to investigate
a few reasons why the VICTORY album and tour was hurt 1. Michael didnt wanna do the album or tour 2. The Lottery for the tickets 3. Michael getting burned 4. DON KING having anything to do with the tour. Michael didnt like him
Hey misterDjay, is it possible that the Michael Jackson biopic movie will include the scene of Michael Jackson experiencing racism in the music industry? Also is it possible that the false allegations that were made against Michael Jackson were racially motivated and the fact that he is black?
I'd love for a scene where we see the music videos for Billie Jean & Beat It were almost NOT played on MTV due to racism. However, MJ's manager threatened to pull ALL acts under the Epic label from MTV if they didn't play MJ's videos!
@@OurKindofEntertainmentit was the President of Epic Records who threatened to pull all the videos from his label out of MTV’s rotation, NOT MJ’s manager.
@@OurKindofEntertainment This is such a hot take and I'm tried of it being the main narrative. I have no love for MTV overall, especially in the last 25 years. But to say they didnt play MJ because they are racist is a false statement that is framing history incorrectly. MJ was not even the first black artist to be featured. Donna Summer, Prince and others featured on the network but just not in as heavy rotation. MTV was primarily for rock at the time. R&B, soul, disco and funk were not really featured unless it was also in the pop genre. MTVs demographic was almost entirely white suburban youth listening to punk and rock. While segregation regarding tv shows still existed, it was not being people were racist. It just existed that way. For instance, Soul Train was a black targeted show as was BET that eventually became its own network rather than a show block in 1983. This doesnt mean white people didnt or werent allowed to watch. Or that whites were excluded in production or feature. Famously Elton John and David Bowie were performers on Soul train. MTV was the inverse to this. It was all about punk and rock essentially speaking to rebellious middle class kids. The argument was not because people were or were not racist. Look at it this way, Its like an ice cream shop that serves one flavor of ice cream. Now, the maker of said Ice cream says, "put this flavor in your store." The shop owner responds with, "sir, the store is called Vanilla." "I don't care, put it in your store or Im cutting your distribution." MTV was strong armed for marketing purposes for Thriller. Saying MTV was racist is a disservice to the other black artists who already appeared and the people in charge of the networks. The whole story is overblown. MTV only existed for barely 2 years since 81. It was still in its infancy. MTV expanded from rock and metal and punk to occasional pop hits. MTV also never played Rap and it wasnt really till aerosmith and run DMC "walk this way" that from that point on MTV was open to more. Hell, they still never gave Country or Gospel the time of Day. They were never featured despite the immense popularity back then.
your reasons seem plausible but they had a family fight too at this time . Maybe because Paula had an affair with Jackie? And why wasn`t Michael in the Video for Body too? I wish they where all together in a Video for "Wait" and "One more chance" It seemed Michael sabotaged the whole Victory project. No Victory Songs on the Tour called "Victory" Very sad ending. I really like the Victory Album, especially Jackies and Randys Material but Tito and Marlon are great too.
Jackie wasn’t on the tour because his ex wife accidentally backed her car into his leg when she caught him with Paula at a drive-in theater [allegedly]. Michael wasn’t in the Body video because he wasn’t on the song, I don’t think it was anything more than that. Wait DEFINITELY is music video worthy, I even thought of a concept for the video that I think would’ve been great. I think more so the business-minds behind the Jacksons like CBS/Arista/Don King etc were the ones who sabotaged everything. It was more about business than the art itself. I’m definitely going to do a video essay about the album in the future. And One More Chance was a great love ballad too. The other Jackson brothers were great too, the only songs I didn’t really like were Be Not Always and Body.
Hey, I like Torture I was 23 when it first came out and I still listen to it off and on today at age 63 that song and Can you feel it extended remixes.
SHIT WHY MICHAEL WASN'T IN "BODY." VIDEO? I understand. He may have been on tour or he just felt like it was his brother's project.I believe michael would have made that record sale more
I remember back in the day watching the video for the first time, and asking where the hell Michael was. I didn’t even notice Jermaine was missing! Hey, I was 12 and still high on Thrillermania!
Que buen video, like y suscrito, sin embargo me cuesta creer que para Michael este haya sido un video con muchas ambiciones, se sabe que MJ no quería ni salir de gira ni hacer un nuevo disco con sus hermanos, entonces tampoco siento que hacer un videoclip para Victory haya sido tan importante para él, aunque lo que se pelearon entre hermanos sí lo sabía me parece que MJ simplemente buscó una excusa para no salir en el clip, el hecho de que no se interpretasen canciones del álbum Victory en la gira también da para otro vídeo.
First of all, all that nonsense between Jermaine and Michael, yet Jackie put in the effort he could what with recovery from knee surgery. Second, Torture was the best track on the album which wasn't the brothers best work. The song State of Shock with Mick Jagger has practically been forgotten if I'm not mistaken. Third, Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin' is one me favorites. Pity it wasn't played in concerts.
So what would Michael have done in the video had he not peaced out? I'm curious how he'd have agreed to this if Thriller got flack from his religious people? Great video
The Victory Tour could have made more money on pay per view back then with one big night showing. It would have been more successful. Plus, once done with his obligation...he could have announced his solo tour the following day.
The brothers hired a camera crew, they shot some shows & Michael blocked it. Then, he hired his own camera crew behind the brothers back & they blocked him from releasing it.
I had completely forgotten about this video even existing LOL I remember it being such a giant disappointment without MJ and JJ being in it. Using the wax figure seemed worse than just not having MJ in it at all! This video definitely helps explain the bts stuff going on at the time, which is cool. I always figured there was no way it came simply down to sheer contractual issues. Clive Davis and Walter Y had to have been smart enough businessmen to not stand in the way of $$$ being made. Anyone around in 1983-84 will tell you that anything (and I mean anything) involving Michael was a license to print money. So whatever contractual BS they couldn't get past by not having them both appear in this music video (as well as not releasing "Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming" as a single) ended up with lots of money NOT being made. A real shame.
At the end of the day I always felt Jermaine was always competitive with Michael almost envious his whole career he never wanted to play robin to Michael he wanted to be Batman.
😂😂😂🤦🏾♀️ I'm sure it would of been different with Michael... yeah when I first saw the video it was definitely different and that Michael statue 🤦🏾♀️ I mean that's your brother 😂😂...
THe 'Victory' album wasn't a true Jacksons album....It was mostly a collection of songs that each Brother was working on. No brilliance that made both 'Destiny' and 'Triumph' stone cold classics.
Looking back, this video is kinda corny LoL -- Amazing the amount of time & expense & effects dumped into it...With all that talent & effort, it shoulda been at the level of the Thriller video
Lol that’s technically a Marlon Jackson song so there would’ve been no place or need for Michael. There’s no way Michael would dance back up behind Marlon. He couldn’t have saved that video cause it was terrible. I don’t even know how that song made the album.
@@misterDjayMDJ Chicago 1945 or any Victory outtake could have replaced it. Hell, end off the album with Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'. Body is easily the worst song on the album
Because they weren’t really in the studio together. They were all working on songs individually for the most part outside of The Hurt/Wait and Torture. The rest of the songs they all did by themselves, so each brother pretty much had a song they sang lead on rather they doing them all as a group. And Michael was keeping the good songs he was working on for himself like Liberian Girl lol
I like what we got but would have been 10 times bigger had Michael and Jermane both been in it. At the time Michael really wanted to be on a solo tour. He only did the victory tour as a favor.
I think the reason for Michael's absence is obvious. The Victory album didn't meet Michael's standards. The album is far weaker than their previous albums and far weaker than Michael's solo albums, most notably Thriller. How can he put out one of the greatest albums of all time and be associated with the Victory album just two years later? He wasn't in the videos and didn't perform none of the songs.
It’s a chicken or egg thing. The album didn’t meet his standards partly because he didn’t work on it the way he worked on every other Jacksons album. He big timed them, and it’s hard to blame him, but I don’t feel the same way about any Michael album after this (not even Bad) the way I feel about The Jacksons, Destiny, and Triumph. Those albums were soulful in a way that his later work generally wasn’t.
@@moondoggy02116I'm sure MJ intended it to be that way He had been doing RnB and soul for years of his career. So he needed to switch things up and do pop records and a little bit of rock. Given the level of huge success he had for decades, you can clearly see it worked. Just like Taylor swift changed genres from country music to pop and it has worked tremendously for her career
@@for-house-stark It worked for what *he* wanted, no doubt. But the concept of something "working" depends on the goal. Black or White is a far bigger song than Rock With You, but in terms of which song is better or will be better remembered ... to me, it's obvious. But taste is relative.
The funny thing is Jermaine carried himself like Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson was Michael Jackson. Michael didn't need to do this, it was charity to his family. So Mike was looking for an excuse to get out this bullsh!t. That's why neither one was in the music video.
This is an EXCELLENT analysis. Maybe the thing I regret most about someone’s career having nothing to do with my own is the sandbagging of Tell Me I’m Not Dreaming. That was one of the best songs any of them ever recorded. But another interesting thing is that there were plenty of records in the early 90s that were never released as singles but promoted on radio to drive album sales. I do wonder how many albums Jermaine sold purely to fanatics like me who had to have that song.
The funny thing is that the 2 people singing lead aren't in the video
That video was TORTURE without Michael and Jermaine! 😂😂😂
Lmao I’ve heard that one a few times 😂😂
Damn sure was 😂😂😂😂😂
Like it's not awful, but then using Wax Figures of Michael and Jermaine near the end was just wacky 😅
Back in the day, It was so brilliantly cheesy & corny that you just had to watch it again & again -- and they used to always talk about how expensive it was to make, & we were like "WHY?"
I enjoyed it at the time 🤷
Michael was not messing with his brothers during this time. He knew alll they wanted was to thrive and share the success of thriller.
I think initially he was on board but after a while, especially towards the end of the tour he was mentally checked out. That whole thing did WAY MORE harm than good. The Pepsi accident, bad press over the ticket prices that he didn’t even agree to; I can’t even blame him. But the business of it all got in the way of what could’ve been a good thing.
@@misterDjayMDJ I totally agree. He had lot going on at the time. He was also writing songs for other artists, I believe he started working on Captain EO movie and the Bad album.
@@misterDjayMDJ They still used his wax figure, though
@@sallyjohnson9504 He could have done it, take a break and do it a day or two work, but they did well with statue of Michael and the skeleton scene
@@misterDjayMDJThe whole Don King debacle didn't help.
I miss Michael Jackson. There'll never be another. RIP MJ
"Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming" was the jam -- shoulda been released as a single. Still got massive airplay anyway
ABSOLUTELY!!!
And a Grammy Award nomination for R&B Duo or group Vocal Performance
Great song
@@Tarantulisimo it was. Just not in the U.S.
@@Tarantulisimo it also should've been included on the Victory Album
Videos like this make me excited for your eventual coverage on MJ's solo albums!
They’re on the way 🫡
@misterDjayMDJ good I've been waiting on someone to do a deep dive of MJs first few solo albums during the Motown era.
@@QMusicSTLYEAH !
Nice breakdown. I wish Michael and Jermaine appeared. "Torture" really could've been The Jackson's next biggest music video after "Blame It On The Boogie" and "Can You Feel It."
WoW! I would have never put the two together, and this makes a lot of sense. Between The Captain EO short film and The Torture Video, even the Dangerous Pepsi, added, a lot of simularites. Now I can't un see it. Amazing!
Victory was never michael's plan , he wanted thriller tour , not a new jackson album or a jackson tour or a jackson music video , he wanted to go solo but his mother convinced him , thats why he never performed any victory songs on the tour , michael made sure that victory tour favored thriller album while simultaneously respect jackson's old songs but he kept victory out of the way , he even gave jermaine a chance only to get some rest in between the show , at the end , thriller and victory tour were huge success but same cant be said for the album , thriller was more imp to mj and i respect that , he wanted to go solo , and he did it
Not entirely true there are photos on google of Michael Jackson’s CBS/Epic contract. Prior to Thriller, but in July 1982, Michael was legally contracted to deliver his forthcoming Thriller, and a new Jackson’s album- but between December 1982 and September 1984. Of course, Motown 25 meant that they needed to have this album DONE as they also were assumed to begin a tour in Summer of 1983, a year prior to Victory, but still during the promo run of Thriller. Victory would have been somewhat completed, and Michael did have songs slated for Thriller (State of Shock, Victory) these songs were instead meant for the Victory album. I feel like Motown 25 was a catalyst for his aspirations as a solo act, and not just MJ and the Jacksons. All contractual work.
victory went platinum that year.
Michael didn’t want to do ANY tour after Thriller. He wanted to take a break from music, only release “short films” to promote future albums & wanted to break into Hollywood.
@@jihadthegeneral Good point. But contractually, he had to have. Look up his Triumph era interviews. In one interview (1980) He stated a solo album in 1982, then a follow up to the Jackson’s album and lastly its accompanying tour. Michael was amidst recording the Victory album (State of Shock, Victory, Be Not Always) early on in 1983 when Suzanne De Passé encouraged him to attend and participate in Motown 25. Billie Jean and Beat It shorts were filmed prior to.
@@jihadthegeneral you mean after the Triumph tour he didn't wanna do anything touring, TV, NOTHING
When I went to the Victory Tour, the Jacksons opened the show with the Torture video on two big screens. It would be my first time watching a concert on the big screens in real time, while seeing them in person.
Great Video! I always thought that Michae was just too busy to do the video, basically still riding high off the success of Thriller, but the points you made were good!
10/10, can’t wait for the album retrospectives 👀👀
Crazy how the music on that album and 2300 Jackson’s street just sounds like typical 80s music and sounds totally different from thriller and off the wall
Big difference in quality from a production and engineering standpoint other than State of Shock. I say the 12” extended mix of Torture is a close second musically. I have to give Jackie props on that one IMO.
Especially because this sound is a product of Teddy Riley. So it sounds like a pre-Dangerous affair, slow jams kind of feel.
I thought that 2300 Jackson Street was great despite the fact that Michael wasn't in it because the Jacksons changed their musical style and it's a shame that they didn't put out another album afterwards.
@@kimbelsimpson7535the group still owed the label a album after victory and Mike and Marlon were on the title track and they left the group after victory tour as well
I love videos like this giving backstories and all because as a new MJ fanatic (I got into his work last week Friday) I feel like there is not enough info about his career also I feel people downplay his career but I digress anyway love this can't wait to see more.
I remember those early days when I first got into Michael those were some of my best days I was 11 😂😂😂...And your right there's not enough information, but take what you can trust..
This is an EXCELLENT analysis. Maybe the thing I regret most about someone’s career having nothing to do with my own is the sandbagging of Tell Me I’m Not Dreaming. That was one of the best songs any of them ever recorded. But another interesting thing is that there were plenty of records in the early 90s that were never released as singles but promoted on radio to drive album sales. I do wonder how many albums Jermaine sold purely to fanatics like me who had to have that song.
I remember watching the video as a kid waiting for Michael to pop up in video then was like "damn"😂😂😂
No lie you did your homework on this my dude this video was great keep up the great work
This video was incredible.
2 things: First, I heard MJ was trying to spare himself from overexposure. Second, it seemed like he didn't wanna be bothered with his brothers anymore than he had to. MJ was checkin' out from the Jacksons. He was like, I'll do these concerts with y'all like I promised mother, but that's it! Then, I'm OUT! Peace!
GREAT VIDEO!!! I LOVE deep dives into the short films & lyrics!! i hope u do more!! THX!❤
Goodness, I don't often leave comments, and I don't expect you to read this, but MisterDJ, this is supreme work, I really mean it
My only tiny suggestion (with only love & respect) would be to balance or slightly lower (db wise) your narration, within or around the rest of any other audio on the clip.. Aside, I applaud your work, and I bless & salute you! I've been subscribed for a minute btw, and I always look forward to your posts!
Thank you man, none taken. Getting the audio to where it needs to be has always been a tricky thing on some of my video essays. I appreciate you supporting the channel bro, thanks again for your comment and the feedback.
That is very interesting. Thank you for the video. I’ve always liked the song and I’ve even watched a video several times. I used to be scared of it as a child lol.
One of the gems here on youtube. Your ideas are ahead of the times. The cb vs mj comparison vid was my intro a year or two back
They ain’t rumors Jackie was definitely knocking Paula’s head back and that injury was due to Jackie’s wife finding out
Lmao listen man, I tried to keep it P.C 😂😂😂😂
Exactly that's what Jackie get 😂😂😂😂....
@@misterDjayMDJlmaoooo
Yup Enid (Jackie's wife) ran him over at a drive in movie theater when she caught the two of them. Carol (Marlon's wife) snitched on them 😂
Hahahahahahahaahaa
I wanna see thos storyboards of MJ and Jermaine and I wanna know what costumes he would have worn and what he wore going over the concepts
I almost know for sure that Jermaine would’ve worn that black sequined costume he wore at a couple of shows on the Victory Tour. He also had a spider-themed guitar to go with it. Just like the spiders/web in the video. I’m not sure what Michael would’ve worn other than the white military jacket cause that’s all they had on set for him to wear that day as far as I know. Usually he had costumes made specifically for his short films so if it was anything else it would’ve been something we’ve never seen.
@@misterDjayMDJ Cool
@@misterDjayMDJ Anything on Michael?
I Love You're Commentary. I Like Commentary From True Fans❤
This was when Michael was itching to go solo. Thankfully they all stayed family in the end.
Never cared for the video....but this segment made sense of it all. Great job!
Hey buddy, it's been awhile man. I hope you're doing great. I hope everything's going awesome for you. I haven't been doing so fantastic but I'm making it go buddy. Always thinking about you. Hope we can get you on one of my channels. I've been working on and talk and get your opinions on some things but outside of that nonsense just to be able to talk to you on the phone and catch up with you would be the most important. Stay awesome. Keep doing what you do. Lots of love buddy
Great content 💎
This proves that father knows best! He (Papa Joe)told them, don't let no one come between you brothers. These executives did just that.
Torture hasn't flown under the radar -- back in the day, that video & the Victory album were both HUGE deals....We all talked about whether MJ was actually in this video or not, whether it was an impersonator or wax figure...We taped the video & watched it back in slow-mo on the VCR to investigate
a few reasons why the VICTORY album and tour was hurt
1. Michael didnt wanna do the album or tour
2. The Lottery for the tickets
3. Michael getting burned
4. DON KING having anything to do with the tour. Michael didnt like him
Hey misterDjay, is it possible that the Michael Jackson biopic movie will include the scene of Michael Jackson experiencing racism in the music industry? Also is it possible that the false allegations that were made against Michael Jackson were racially motivated and the fact that he is black?
Possible, I doubt they would go that route or even touch on that situation cause of the effect it had not just on MJ, but his family as well.
I'd love for a scene where we see the music videos for Billie Jean & Beat It were almost NOT played on MTV due to racism. However, MJ's manager threatened to pull ALL acts under the Epic label from MTV if they didn't play MJ's videos!
@@OurKindofEntertainmentit was the President of Epic Records who threatened to pull all the videos from his label out of MTV’s rotation, NOT MJ’s manager.
@@EFunkRock thanks!!!
@@OurKindofEntertainment This is such a hot take and I'm tried of it being the main narrative. I have no love for MTV overall, especially in the last 25 years. But to say they didnt play MJ because they are racist is a false statement that is framing history incorrectly. MJ was not even the first black artist to be featured. Donna Summer, Prince and others featured on the network but just not in as heavy rotation. MTV was primarily for rock at the time. R&B, soul, disco and funk were not really featured unless it was also in the pop genre. MTVs demographic was almost entirely white suburban youth listening to punk and rock.
While segregation regarding tv shows still existed, it was not being people were racist. It just existed that way. For instance, Soul Train was a black targeted show as was BET that eventually became its own network rather than a show block in 1983. This doesnt mean white people didnt or werent allowed to watch. Or that whites were excluded in production or feature. Famously Elton John and David Bowie were performers on Soul train. MTV was the inverse to this. It was all about punk and rock essentially speaking to rebellious middle class kids. The argument was not because people were or were not racist.
Look at it this way, Its like an ice cream shop that serves one flavor of ice cream. Now, the maker of said Ice cream says, "put this flavor in your store." The shop owner responds with, "sir, the store is called Vanilla." "I don't care, put it in your store or Im cutting your distribution."
MTV was strong armed for marketing purposes for Thriller. Saying MTV was racist is a disservice to the other black artists who already appeared and the people in charge of the networks. The whole story is overblown. MTV only existed for barely 2 years since 81. It was still in its infancy.
MTV expanded from rock and metal and punk to occasional pop hits. MTV also never played Rap and it wasnt really till aerosmith and run DMC "walk this way" that from that point on MTV was open to more.
Hell, they still never gave Country or Gospel the time of Day. They were never featured despite the immense popularity back then.
Very interesting! I never even thought about this!
Thanks for that.👍🔥🤝
your reasons seem plausible but they had a family fight too at this time . Maybe because Paula had an affair with Jackie? And why wasn`t Michael in the Video for Body too? I wish they where all together in a Video for "Wait" and "One more chance" It seemed Michael sabotaged the whole Victory project. No Victory Songs on the Tour called "Victory" Very sad ending. I really like the Victory Album, especially Jackies and Randys Material but Tito and Marlon are great too.
Jackie wasn’t on the tour because his ex wife accidentally backed her car into his leg when she caught him with Paula at a drive-in theater [allegedly]. Michael wasn’t in the Body video because he wasn’t on the song, I don’t think it was anything more than that. Wait DEFINITELY is music video worthy, I even thought of a concept for the video that I think would’ve been great. I think more so the business-minds behind the Jacksons like CBS/Arista/Don King etc were the ones who sabotaged everything. It was more about business than the art itself. I’m definitely going to do a video essay about the album in the future. And One More Chance was a great love ballad too. The other Jackson brothers were great too, the only songs I didn’t really like were Be Not Always and Body.
Hey, I like Torture I was 23 when it first came out and I still listen to it off and on today at age 63 that song and Can you feel it extended remixes.
A lot of HBCU and HIGH SCHOOL Marching Bands play “Torture”
That's correct!
SHIT WHY MICHAEL WASN'T IN "BODY." VIDEO?
I understand.
He may have been on tour or he just felt like it was his brother's project.I believe michael would have made that record sale more
0:54 I have to find this interview. That couch looks so comfortable lol.
Excellent information
I remember back in the day watching the video for the first time, and asking where the hell Michael was. I didn’t even notice Jermaine was missing! Hey, I was 12 and still high on Thrillermania!
Que buen video, like y suscrito, sin embargo me cuesta creer que para Michael este haya sido un video con muchas ambiciones, se sabe que MJ no quería ni salir de gira ni hacer un nuevo disco con sus hermanos, entonces tampoco siento que hacer un videoclip para Victory haya sido tan importante para él, aunque lo que se pelearon entre hermanos sí lo sabía me parece que MJ simplemente buscó una excusa para no salir en el clip, el hecho de que no se interpretasen canciones del álbum Victory en la gira también da para otro vídeo.
First of all, all that nonsense between Jermaine and Michael, yet Jackie put in the effort he could what with recovery from knee surgery. Second, Torture was the best track on the album which wasn't the brothers best work. The song State of Shock with Mick Jagger has practically been forgotten if I'm not mistaken. Third, Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin' is one me favorites. Pity it wasn't played in concerts.
So what would Michael have done in the video had he not peaced out? I'm curious how he'd have agreed to this if Thriller got flack from his religious people? Great video
The Victory Tour could have made more money on pay per view back then with one big night showing. It would have been more successful.
Plus, once done with his obligation...he could have announced his solo tour the following day.
It wouldn’t have made that much money by comparison. The reality is Jackson didn’t want to tour then.
0:54 what interview is that?
It’s not an interview, it’s something to do with Janet winning an award and him being proud of her.
I always feel like they tried compete with thriller
Why they didn't release the victory tour officially in dvd or blu ray format😅
The brothers hired a camera crew, they shot some shows & Michael blocked it. Then, he hired his own camera crew behind the brothers back & they blocked him from releasing it.
@@jihadthegeneral Micheal was evil I see
I had completely forgotten about this video even existing LOL I remember it being such a giant disappointment without MJ and JJ being in it. Using the wax figure seemed worse than just not having MJ in it at all! This video definitely helps explain the bts stuff going on at the time, which is cool. I always figured there was no way it came simply down to sheer contractual issues. Clive Davis and Walter Y had to have been smart enough businessmen to not stand in the way of $$$ being made. Anyone around in 1983-84 will tell you that anything (and I mean anything) involving Michael was a license to print money. So whatever contractual BS they couldn't get past by not having them both appear in this music video (as well as not releasing "Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming" as a single) ended up with lots of money NOT being made. A real shame.
Michael's choreographer, Michael Peters would have been a better choice for the video.
Thats funny because usually Jermaine jumps right on especially knowing Michael isnt showing up.😅
At the end of the day I always felt Jermaine was always competitive with Michael almost envious his whole career he never wanted to play robin to Michael he wanted to be Batman.
we always took it as Michael didn't want to be part of some trash lol...we used to laugh at the song & video, I didn't know anybody liked it
😂😂😂🤦🏾♀️ I'm sure it would of been different with Michael... yeah when I first saw the video it was definitely different and that Michael statue 🤦🏾♀️ I mean that's your brother 😂😂...
I heard he did film some of the video but fell out because he didn't like the direction the video was going in and refused to film anymore
Until now, I didnt know Jermaine isn't in the video...
Great song
and i just can't fight this feeling 🤭
Would have been cool if they melted the wax figure of Michael, like they did in Raiders of the lost ark.
THe 'Victory' album wasn't a true Jacksons album....It was mostly a collection of songs that each Brother was working on. No brilliance that made both 'Destiny' and 'Triumph' stone cold classics.
Looking back, this video is kinda corny LoL -- Amazing the amount of time & expense & effects dumped into it...With all that talent & effort, it shoulda been at the level of the Thriller video
Explain the "Body" video😅
LMFAO Michael wasn’t even on the song, ima leave that explanation to someone else.
@@misterDjayMDJ why wasn't he tho? That's what I'm asking. The vid and song was babage btw 😆
Lol that’s technically a Marlon Jackson song so there would’ve been no place or need for Michael. There’s no way Michael would dance back up behind Marlon. He couldn’t have saved that video cause it was terrible. I don’t even know how that song made the album.
@@misterDjayMDJ Chicago 1945 or any Victory outtake could have replaced it. Hell, end off the album with Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'.
Body is easily the worst song on the album
Because they weren’t really in the studio together. They were all working on songs individually for the most part outside of The Hurt/Wait and Torture. The rest of the songs they all did by themselves, so each brother pretty much had a song they sang lead on rather they doing them all as a group. And Michael was keeping the good songs he was working on for himself like Liberian Girl lol
I think Michael didn’t want over exposer and There was an argument with the brothers
I like what we got but would have been 10 times bigger had Michael and Jermane both been in it. At the time Michael really wanted to be on a solo tour. He only did the victory tour as a favor.
Messed up that everything had to be about Michael…..or I don’t want to do it if we don’t do things MY way…..
They wanted to ride the coat tails of MJs success. So they might as well do things his way
Wait Jermaine wasn’t in there either?😂😂😂
How about Michael just didn’t wanna do this project in the first place, and had, (had) enough.
That wasn’t even Jackie either he was recovering from a accident !!
No, Jackie was in the music video. But they had a body double do his more physical scenes.
I think the reason for Michael's absence is obvious. The Victory album didn't meet Michael's standards. The album is far weaker than their previous albums and far weaker than Michael's solo albums, most notably Thriller. How can he put out one of the greatest albums of all time and be associated with the Victory album just two years later? He wasn't in the videos and didn't perform none of the songs.
It’s a chicken or egg thing. The album didn’t meet his standards partly because he didn’t work on it the way he worked on every other Jacksons album. He big timed them, and it’s hard to blame him, but I don’t feel the same way about any Michael album after this (not even Bad) the way I feel about The Jacksons, Destiny, and Triumph. Those albums were soulful in a way that his later work generally wasn’t.
@@moondoggy02116I'm sure MJ intended it to be that way
He had been doing RnB and soul for years of his career. So he needed to switch things up and do pop records and a little bit of rock. Given the level of huge success he had for decades, you can clearly see it worked. Just like Taylor swift changed genres from country music to pop and it has worked tremendously for her career
@@for-house-stark It worked for what *he* wanted, no doubt. But the concept of something "working" depends on the goal. Black or White is a far bigger song than Rock With You, but in terms of which song is better or will be better remembered ... to me, it's obvious. But taste is relative.
The funny thing is Jermaine carried himself like Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson was Michael Jackson. Michael didn't need to do this, it was charity to his family. So Mike was looking for an excuse to get out this bullsh!t. That's why neither one was in the music video.
They didn’t appear in the Body Video either which was a better song
No no no. Body was the worst song on Victory
Waste of money.
I honestly thought MJ wasn't in it because the lyrics and visuals were far too dark/ erotic. Not gonna lie the video always creeps me out
Maybe in another universe
If Michael was in the video, nobody would have noticed the absence of Jermaine.
Torture was still a good video. 😎😎
Mike was nursing burns, that's what I heard. He's not in Rockwell's hit video either.
This is an EXCELLENT analysis. Maybe the thing I regret most about someone’s career having nothing to do with my own is the sandbagging of Tell Me I’m Not Dreaming. That was one of the best songs any of them ever recorded. But another interesting thing is that there were plenty of records in the early 90s that were never released as singles but promoted on radio to drive album sales. I do wonder how many albums Jermaine sold purely to fanatics like me who had to have that song.
Jermaine probably sold like 200,000 records lmao