The Last of Us: Scientists Have Already Proven Joel Was (Probably) Right
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- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2023
- When The Last of Us concluded its first season as a series on HBO Max, viewers are forced through the same decisions Joel has to make at the end of The Last of Us game: save Ellie and doom the world to the cordyceps infection, or allow the Fireflies to conduct a fatal operation to find a potential cure? The Last of Us series fans face the question: Was Joel Right? And in this video, IGN’s Kim Horcher contends…yeah, he kinda was.
In The Last of Us Show, Joel (portrayed by Pedro Pascal) and Ellie (played by Bella Ramsey) are forced into an impossible situation and they both save each other’s lives multiple times. Is Joel supposed to throw that away because of the Fireflies claims? Join Kim Horcher for The Last of Us explained and why The Last of Us Joel was right to do what he did to save The Last of Us Ellie.
#IGN #TheLastOfUs 
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Love how passionate this woman is. It sounds like she’s had this building up inside for years.
Let's be fair! most of us had these feelings build up for years! the game ended the same way and us gamers mostly agreed on this opinion!
Probably was...
she was probably just reading a script she didn't make lol
She has 😂 the game is a decade old
Sooo truee!!!
One thing no one is thinking about here is logistics. Creating a vaccine is one thing but in a world like this how the heck are you supposed to get the materials and support to not only create it but distribute it?
This is 100% a concern. The idea that the cure was some “sure thing” that was going to “save humanity” is one of a series of really terribly thought-out retcons that Druckman butchered the universe to shove into the second game.
@@SurferMan127 so you are an expert on how the story was originally intended?
Touch gras
I’ve been saying this exact thing for ages. Thank you!
Especially since the Fireflies could've been like "nah this our cure, go find your own"
My take was that the Fireflies didn't plan on distributing the cure. They just wanted to have monopoly over it, like a bargaining chip.
Right or not, what Father or Mom would not "destroy the world" to save their kid? This was the most human choice he could made... LoU isn't a show about heroes and fantasy, it's a show that we can identify and have empathy with their choices like was ours.
This. This is literally it. The entire point of both games.
@@simonfarre4907 Both game?
2nd game which has alot of plot hole to fit the narrative than saying violence is bad after all the world state in it?
@@Gantaipao There are no plot holes in the 2nd game, not a single one. There's no character inconsistencies.
And the narrative is _definitely_ not "violence is bad".
Not even that. Why would you want to save the human race?
*tlou
Let's talk about how Marlene gave her best friend's daughter up to be sacrificed without consent by one guy who said he'd be able to cure humanity
And breaking her word to Ellies mother.
Did not the game imply Eli knew she probably be sacrificing her life for thete to be a cure?
and marlene knows how and why this fluke happened ..so she already has the cure pregnant infected mothers ..
@@winwinmilieudefensie7757 lmfao fr, sounds sick, in a twisted way, just infect pregnant mothers.
@@amandafurrow2338 doesn't change the fact that she wasn't asked.
My main issue was just that she wasn't asked. They can wait. They don't have to cut her up right then and there.
Wtf lol since when people that kill people ask the persons permission
Would you wait for a 14 year that can not even drink, to make this kind of decision?
@ty-zz9ic , there have been people who are willing to volunteer for experiments, knowing they may get injured or die. For example, look at the space race.
How do you think animals we test on feel?
Thank you for this! It always just struck me as common sense that murdering your test subject means eliminating your only "source" for a cure. Why is there even an argument in people's minds about this?
Because of the way it was presented to them.
It's sci-fi mumbo jumbo... They literally said in the episode they will extract the tissue, reproduce it, and make it a cure. Somehow, the cure is what's in the brain and the surgery of the brain would effectively kill the subject. Why are you all so caught up in this like it's somehow believable in the first place?
In the show it was necessary to make a vaccine.
@@evilsimeon not really. in the second half of the show the most dangerous life form to humans were humans. get a vaccine for that first!
plus, it MIGHT have worked. im not letting someone kill me for a "it MIGHT work", let alone without even asking me.
It's called creative license. They took liberties with the nitty gritty of the science to ratchet up the stakes. This isn't a medical biopic. The purpose is to make you engage with the moral dilemma.
Its also worth pointing put that it was revealed on the 2nd game that the guy who was supposed to perform the surgery on Eillie wasn't a real doctor. He was just some guy with a bachelor's in biology. To say he did not qualify to carry out the procedure and succeed in making a cure would be an understatement. Even if he was a surgeon, a oncologist is an entirely different field of study
At the end of the day, the Firelies were acting out of desperation , not rationality
Not true.
@@skyhunter2816 ssssshhhh people who have played the game are talking
Umm..im on my 3rd playthrough riggt now and don't remember that at all
post-hoc rationalization
Wait a minute didn't they say in the game that he was the only qualified scientist to harvest and create the vaccine. He was a very rare skilled doctor.
Has everyone forgotten that the show ALSO added TWO new cold open scenes in episodes 1 & 2 where BOTH experts say that "there is no cure" and "there is no medicine" for the cordycepts infection.
And considering the world ends immediately after, we have to assume no scientific breakthrough happened between that to 20 years later
There's plenty of diseases that used to have no cure, then someone came up with one. That's what these people are trying to do, because that's what's required to save the world. Emotion aside, the real question is, do we have enough faith in their chances of success to let them extinguish the one living immune specimen? My answer is HELL NO.
They make it pretty clear that the mainstream scientific community didn’t believe a cordycept infection was a credible threat, so no one was funding research into developing a cure. So that is more likely for why “there is no cure”. Not that a cure was impossible. And the fireflies make it pretty clear this is not a traditional vaccine or anti-fungal cure. It doesn’t kill the cordycept with chemicals or produce antibodies to attack them, the way traditional vaccines work. It’s a special hormone or pheromone that Ellie’s body produces that confuses the cordycepts into thinking that she is another cordycept rather than a human host, so it doesn’t attack her and hijack her brain.
Yeah but every disease "has no cure" until one is developed. HIV technically has no cure, yet it's manageable today. Tuberculosis & leprosy had no cure until antibiotics & vaccines.
they never had a baby born and develop with the coedycepts to develop an immunity.
You're right about all these points but none of this crosses Joel's mind when he decides to kill all the fireflies
yeah he literally has no clue whether the cure would work or not
Just a father's instinct 😂
Well no, he's just focused on getting his baby girl out. When your'e John Wicking everything, not much time for reflection.
It doesn't matter, the point is it wasn't possible to begin with.
exactly, he's just in dad's 'save my baby' mode
He shot the doctor because he was a threat to Eli and he saw her as his daughter at that point and all he wanted to do was get her out of that situation as soon as possible he wanted her in his arms so he can feel like he saved her he was shooting anything and anyone that stood his way no questions asked
and he said he "wouldn't allow it"
Eli😂
Use periods.
@@par32 ………. Now what?
He couldn't have shot him in the foot.
The reason Abby's dad was so quick to cut her brain out is because he wasn't a real doctor. In some documents in the 1st game you find out he started med school in 2007, That's 4 years of school + 2 years of residency meaning he wasn't a "doctor" until 2013 the same year the outbreak stared but he was somehow an accomplished brain surgeon (something that takes 14 - 16 years) and he was able to find a fungal cure something that isn't possible in modern day 2023. In reality he was a vet posing as a real doctor (which is why he was checking up on the horses in Part 2) and he was gonna sacrifice an innocent girl to cover his story then claim there was no cure knowing nobody would question the "Surgeon" and nobody would figure out the lie keeping him safe.
So...I despise Abby more now lmao.
Damn, that's deep
@@ItsCreaidan why?
They were zebras bro. Not horses, we know you aint a vet for sure now
@@saggyflapjax Zebras are just horses that wanted to be pandas
The way he asked “is there enough power” like you don’t even know if you have enough power to complete the surgery but you actually think you’re gonna be able to make a cure???? Girl please
C'mon, that's just a double check. like asking asking if the scalpel is ready.
Man this sounds like a stretched cope for a fictional character that doesn't even matter. This comment section is so weird like that
@@kenz2756 no spoiler but oh he matters
@@bunaioara Only way he matters is consequence killed him, and rightly so. It's just so weird people are constantly rationalizing in this comment section for what is essentially the writer's fault rather than the characters.
FINALLY the ending of the game always felt a bit contrived. It always felt odd that they just assumed that they had a cure by murdering a teenage girl and there was no debate around that.
There was a debate about it. Marlene and Jerry argue this very topic a lot before they do anything. It was also never a sure thing, they knew it wasnt a guarantee but at least it was a shot at saving humanity.
💯
@@fabricejoseph3393 oh please they just threw that in the second game to make marlene seem like a better person
You have to understand that when a civilian collapse so does the education. Abbey's father could not have been more then 25 when the outbreak happened, lacking the experience needed. As the doctors in the middle ages after the fall of Rome had lost allot of knowledge and just experiment with allot of random ideas so do the Fire Flies do here.
In an apocalypse with some medical background, it’s easy to lie or boost your résumé. Abbey’s father is the real villain here as his little lie led to countless deaths.
Lmao plenty of people from before the fall were alive
@@HypocritesExposd Exactly this
Dude, roman doctors didn't know sh*t. They believed on humors and stuff.
Any self-respecting sturgeon wouldn’t operate that quickly- he was a hack.
Yeah that "sturgeon" is definitely a fish
@@JOEYZ-nq2gn 🤣🤣🤣
@@JOEYZ-nq2gn lmao 😂😂
@@JOEYZ-nq2gn imagine wanting to perform a sturgery on someone's brain hoping to farm mushrooms to administer to others...implausible.
@@aleksoctop treating the brain like it's caviar waiting to be harvested is my guess 🤷
This kinda feels like it's sidestepping the point of the ending. In a work of fiction, the real world science doesn't really matter. The moral question that the game/show is asking - "Would you doom humanity to save someone you love?" - only works if we assume the cure is legit.
This^
Whether or not a miracle cure is possible is up to the writers. The point is not scientific possibility, it's about the moral implications. Even with a cure being unlikely, the question still works of saving one person versus a chance to save all of humanity. Even if the chance is small, it could be the ONLY chance.
If that is the question the story was trying to ask, then we can only conclude bad plotting on the part of the writers. The text does not present the cure as a sure bet, only as a theoretical maybe. If they wanted it to be a sure bet, then they needed to write those scenes differently.
Fiction establishes internal logic. Has to follow that logic
They aren't asking that. In the show there's only a CHANCE to save the world. We all know it probably won't work
@@station7thedoor 💯
Having only watched the show . You really have to think what can the fireflies actually accomplish it’s not like they’re a match against fedra if anything fedra would’ve had a better chance at making it work
Damn! This is a IGN video. Finally they let someone who really played and enjoyed game. Her point are what us TLOU fans been debating about since 2013
Joel´s choice was human. He cannot be judged. Any father would destroy the world for his daughter.
But she's not his daughter. His daughter died, because of the pandemic (indirectly), the very thing he just decreased the chance of stopping.
@@Peace_Guard He considers her his daughter . He even compares her to Sarah in the very next scene. She's his reason for living so you really can't blame him for doing what he did. You'd do the same for a loved one.
No fool. Everyone else’s kid matters too, not just mine.
It's like we're back in 2013 again with these videos and topics 😂
Abby gonna ruin everything
Back to 2020 again
The never ending arguments will age me bro and it’s been a decade 👵
Dude yeah it's crazy lmaoooo but we're like the veterans looking onto a new generation fighting a familiar battle 😂
OMG, TIME LOOP! The last decade…
We never left..
A simpler time. Before the Pandemic and another Financial Crisis. Again.
The science was not a factor in Joel’s decision whatsoever. His decision was based solely on love and his own wants
True thats what makes it so great
sure but thats not relevant to the overall outcome
Even if he could make a cure, it’s not like the firefly’s would just hand it out willy nilly, even FEDRA would care more for peoples survival, and that’s saying A LOT.
Relax it’s just a fiction. Stop worrying bout it. The directors will worry about it 😂
@@arouneshboradude take your opinion somewhere else
@@nalvareza why so serious? 🤔
Wtf are you talking about ? This is not real we didnt bomb Italie during covid. Littéraly ign redefining rock bottom
Doubtful
"Now let's head to the comments to see what the experts think"
The greatest evils always begin by making decisions for other people without their consent.
And there are morons who agree to blinding a Person because they gave "consent" to be blinded.
You don't have the option to NOT kill the surgeon in the game. That is one of my major problems with the game. In any case, you can ask any doctor in the world and they probably would not support the idea of killing a patient without further studies, so this "doctor" was a psychopath.
They’re in the apocalypse and this girl is highly likely to be the cure to the entire human race don’t act like sacrificing her for that cause makes someone “psychopathic” 💀
They should have had Ellie's permission, and explain to her she won't survive and they may not even be successful.
@@Lu22Hsedating someone and performing a fatal surgery without their consent (whether she would have said yes or not) is psychotic. just my 2 cents.
@@ashistired6456 you missed out the part where it was to save literally all of humanity 🙃
@@Lu22H you missed the part where human beings have rights
yeah , the surgery is way too soon even if they are 100% confident that it would work
😂😂😂 funniest thing here is that we treat this like a real life situation. They did something big with this game
If she is already infected and the fungus doesn't try to convert her, why does the fungus try to attack her with other infected? Never understood this
She's immune cant be infected
The infected are not only trying to spread the fungus when they attack people, they are also trying to feed in order to stay alive and to increase their chance of passing on the infection. Makes sense that the infected would try and eat her since she is presenting as a normal healthy person that they could eat.
@@curlykid999 Why don't they try to eat other infected then?
@@MrFatperson That'd just be a no Brainer, why would any organism trying to spread itself just kill itself
@2k well shouldn't they consider her "same species" since shes already infected
Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling, Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia
People forget that Jackson exists, and possibly there are more cities like it.
Tommy is a former firefly, he could reach a resource barter deal: food in exchange for immunity.
In a addition, on Jackson there are surely people who are experts in medicine and pharmacology to apply the dose of immunity.
Jackson is an example of why not to trust the Fireflies. Tommy left them for a reason, the commune has no Fireflies or FEDRA they are both bad and not to be trusted.
Finally, someone with a sense of reality.
Of all choices available, fireflies chose death.
.
The ends don't justify the means, because you never know if the ends are truely reachable. The means however will imprint into your culture. 💟
Everything you say in this video applies to the original game
Also humanity isn't worth saving when the life of one has no meaning
To steal a comment from reddit:
"It really is baffling the lengths that some people will go to destroy any sort of grey morality that the ending poses. They need the fireflies to be bad and incompetent and for the cure to be unrealistic, because it makes it easier to swallow Joel's actions. The irony in this is that it also makes the ending much worse because it would just be about a father saving his daughter from bad people by killing them."
When people's bias is so strong that they would go as far as to discredit the other side as much as possible in order to defend what they see/believe. And its not uncommon in real life. Might even be able to think of a few examples...
People always try to overrationalize deliberately ambiguous endings.
It goes both ways. Murder is bad. Killing a girl without her getting a say is bad. Killing a whole hospital is worse, but it’s still bad. Motivation doesn’t get to play that big of a factor when it comes to killing. People that disagree are usually labeled as sociopaths
Cause that's how some people see the ending. It's either a dad saving his daughter from bad people, or a man dooming humanity for selfish reasons. Everyone has their arguments for either side.
it is already about a father saving his daughter, but it has nuance
Any one not sure if what the firefly’s were doing was wrong need to read “the ones who walked away from omelas”.
2:15 it's not a virus.. it's a fungi. You Probably skip the episode 2.
Yes!!! Thank you!!! I’ve literally been saying a lot of these things forever!!!
Colin Moriarty beat y’all to this conclusion when the game came out, and even told The creators of the game Neil and Bruce of his interpretation of the ending. They said no if they had preformed the surgery they would have found the cure. They’d have authority over the canon of the series at the end of the day. It’s interesting an actual scientist prospect full deep dive into the probability of success would be an awesome video.
Stand down 😊
People had a similar argument with harry potter books. The audience is the one that interprets what is consuming. Even tho the creator might have wanted something else. U can't stop people from making the same conclusions.
Colin is a lil baby
@@sinistergrin7053 yet you're the one on here writing about it. Grow up you lizard
If it's in the game they have authority over it.
Can we please, PLEASE, start making the distinction that VACCINES are used to prevent VIRAL infections? FUNGAL infections are treated with different families of drugs (azoles, polyenes and allylamine/thiocarbamates).
Didn't they do this surgery a bunch of times before this and it always failed in the game and they were going to do it anyway?
This is a bit more of an opinon piece, but yeah, the show doesnt justify teh fireflies' decision the same way the game had. In the game it was more definitive that a cure could be made, in tehshow, theyre not sure but thought they could. Also, whether or not the fungi grow in the brain or in all other cells is a mute point because how it is in the show isn't necessarily how it is in the show or game.I agree about the consent though
Humanity took Joel's daughter, so he took humanity's daughter to save himself.
"for eh, many reasons" 😂
Both sides have points, both side acted selfish, but none asked the person who have to choice
This game might be the only one in history where you rage quit from the story and not from gameplay
what?
We don't need Scientist's opinions for Joel's actions, any person would do the same for their loved ones.
You'd murder dozens of people begging for mercy to deliver your daughter from death that could could save the planet?!
No
@@randomguyQuan yes
Whether the cure can be solved by Ellie's surgery or not, the fireflies are definitely wrong. there's no way people can get a solution just by killing other people. just like Vision on Avengers says: "We don't trade lives!"
"Proceeded to trade lots of lives on the battlefield of Wakanda."
Every time someone relate "virus" to "fungus" infection a biologist die...
Joseph Anderson made this exact argument like 5 years ago
Marlene think she is cool and making the right decisions🤣
If this situation were real, yeah, it most likely wouldn’t work going into brain surgery right away😂
Successfully extract from a single subject, test it on a sample subject, expose to fungus, sample subject must be successful at preventing fungus control. Sequence of events being successful would be improbable, and the risks are too high.
@2:17 "virus"? It is fungi. The script of this video is like a compliance EV. both are without heart in it.
Game Theory also said something similar to this.
And was also wrong.
The removal of spores and the removal of Ellie’s consent are two major decisions that are really gonna give the second season some continuity issues
She doesn't give consent in the game either.
@2:15 "The HBO series' shift from spores to tendrils completely changes the nature of the virus". What virus?!? For heaven's sake, at least get it right.
Wow this really make a lot of sense, why would they rush it if it was their only hope.
They are desperate.
@@jonfreeman9682 Which makes them wrong and untrustworthy.
"Not the bugs, the people."
Why the funghal heck everyone keeps saying "virus"? Eveb Troy Baker did so in a recent interview... -.-
Finally! My theory for all those years, put into words. Thank you! 🙏🏼
Plenty of people have had these incorrect theories. It's a game/story, science doesnt need to line up to justify Joel's actions.
Last of us show will go down as the best video game adaptation in history hands down . Was such a beautiful show . People need start taking notes on how to make a adaptation. Because this exactly how you do it
High quality commentary
THey just wanted to force a big dillema as the ending
Exactly. No self respecting doctor would jump to a decision so fast.
People will argue that they ran all the tests, and the way they were going was the only way forward...
A: They only had run tests on her for under a month.
B: Jerry isn't a doctor, just a dude with a bachelor's degree in biology.
C: Though Cordyceps grows predominantly in the brain, it spreads through the spinal fluid.
D: They're might've been other immune patients that they worked on previously, but failed.
Agreed. Also please stop calling it a virus.
As a gamer. What a relief
Spot on analysis IGN! Fantastic job, KUDOS!
This goes straight to the point of media in general. You don't follow logic 100% otherwise you wont have a show or game that is entertaining. We'd just sit there in a hospital for weeks gathering data... not really fun to do or see (yes you can do something else during that time, but it would take from the themes and ultimately the point of the story.) You have to accept a story for what it gives you otherwise it probably wouldn't be a gripping story to begin with.
When a story follows that edge of just believable enough, is when it can accomplish both sides - believable but also entertaining.
No you don't. Stop the Abby dickriding
There are shows and gems that follow logic and are still entertaining. Open your kind
If cordyceps don’t actually go for the brain, could Sam and other runners still be conscious inside before they’re kill or turn into stalkers
yes the fungus controls motor functions of human body and slowly takes over the brain meaning they can see whats going on but can't do anything
The point is he would have done the same if they conducted a thousand tests and possibly consent
Exactly, you can extract cerebrospinal fluid thus acquiring the "chemical messenger" without killing someone.
It’s these perspectives that help me understand and agree with Joel’s decision 👏🏿 fiction
The whole comment section is coping. I've no idea why people need to go to great lengths to do these post-hoc rationalizations.
@@kenz2756literally this comment section is so braindead
What if she were to have kids they would be immune too
Maybe. Assuming her immunity is genetic, and assuming the gene responsible is dominant as opposed to recessive.
Probably considering she became immune because of her mom
This just made it even painfull (Joel's death).😢
you do know that there are people who haven't played the games right?
Unnecessary spoiler. Smfh
Finally, someone who gets it... I've commented on a few videos with similar arguments but you explain this so much better here. Thank you!
Agreed! Also, the world has gotten used to living with the infected. There don't seem to be that many anymore anyway. Even if the "cure" worked, people are more of a danger to each other than the infected are, ain't no cure for that. Also, imagine if they did do the surgery and it didn't work.
It’s not about that… it’s the fact that they were going to take away this girl that he had come to love as a daughter. He didn’t want to lose another.
Exactly, getting into the weeds about real world science in a work of fiction kinda misses the point.
well liked all episodes except the last one it was a big rush in the end, kind of hard to digest that fireflies would make this rash decision if they really were hoping to change the world
the Doctor at the very beginning of the show said it literally is not possible to make a vaccine for the cordyceps
Did he know someone would be immune? This doctor comment is pretty lame
Finally a channel with its head on straight.
it's not a virus.
How many people is it acceptable to vivisect? 3? 27? 290? Just keep doing it until the Brave New World is ushered in?
yeah... not a virus.
Yeah so basically what I’ve been saying since the first game came out. Eff Marlene and the Fireflies.
Also, Marlene even if was at first against the procedure as shown in the 2nd game, she still ultimately failed to do what she promised Anna. To protect her.
Couldn’t agree more
The Last of Us people knew before that this was a plot hole, and they didn’t take the time to change it in the show 😤
It’s not a virus!
Elli is not old enough to consent to a martyr. Even if she wanted to do it. There's a reason why we make that distinction.
It's alright guys, we already have a ton of Reddit threads on these subject since the original game release
Firefly just want to be the healing church in Bloodborne.
Not a virus and you mean “raises the question” not “begs the question“
These people are making Joel's decision look easy, but the whole damn point of the ending is that it wasn't easy, only easier in Joel's mind, and by saying that, they're making the ending look shallow and devoid of weight, and the weight of that decision is what makes the ending so impactful in the first place.
Dammit, thank you! Someone who understands the damn story! Everybody misunderstood this back in the day and now apparently.
@@h.i.mcdunnough9421 agreed
Thank you so much Kim! You said it all. ❤
They did take her blood in the beginning
2:18 its a fungus, not a virus
first legit ign upload. love this take
*clears throat
WE NEED THE LAST OF US PART THREEEEE!!!!
Naughty Dog burned that bridge and we all know it. The idea that a game THAT THOROUGHLY AWARDED still doesn’t have a sequel in development tells us all we need to know about the true fan reaction and how phony the praise for it was.
Gonna take the chance
HALF-LIFE 3!!!
2:20 virus???
Please don't call it a "virus" lol, it's a fungus.