Awesome guys! That natural sun-lit reef is mine, when I started this project so many years ago I never could have imagined the amazing support I've received. With our life and family struggles the reefing community has been the amazing, thanks so much for the wonderful words of encouragement through the years!
I feel it is a combination of points at what makes an optimal lighting set up for coral. The top priority being a wide coverage of lights to envelope the coral in light as you point out. The next keeping you schedule relatively in the same spectrum through the day without deviating too much from popping blues evening and night and warmer spectrum through mid day. The third being color blending (diffusion). My experience showed me that we strive for stability in water chemistry but stability in underwater dynamic spectrum is just as important. Think about it, when you use T5 or halides it is usually light on, same spectrum through the day, then light off. That's as stable as you can make lights. Its too easy to play with color graphs on leds. STABILITY in lighting is key. Thanks Ryan for drilling these concepts into the reefing hobby. Its been long time needed.
Thanks guys, this has answered so many questions re lighting I have had over the years. I think this video has created a fantastic benchmark for light choice and set up. Keep up the great work, well done.
Speaking broadly, it's my hope manufacturers take note of the concepts you're talking about here. You didn't throw out any crazy ideas. You may have challenged peoples long standing assertions, but that's often a good thing. And the vast majority of what you discussed matched the general scientific understanding, at least to the point it can be understood. You're not pulling this out of left field, you're getting direct input from both commercial coral farms and college professors who spend their lives studying these topics. Exactly where you should be looking for this information. And for what it's worth. It also matched much of what is taught in other fields, like indoor agriculture. Though with notable differences such as attenuation, or the absence of Chloro B, or the inclusion of Chloro C2. (which is part of my own background) As for what I'd like. I very much value the ability to fine tune LED's. I enjoy advanced settings. But I'm also coming from a formal background that included college lectures on indoor lighting. Meaning I am not the typical new-reefer in terms of light technology. New Reefers who can often get the wrong light (or the wrong light settings), fails, and can't explain why. New hobbyist's especially, and certainly those who don't have a frame of reference for these quite deep talks on lighting: they need "plug and play". Approaches like the Kessil Logic or the Blade offer a far better entry level path for anyone new or unsure of what's taking place, because they were built taking the biology in mind (though I'm not entirely certain if that's happy coincidence or sound research). And that's not an endorsement of the product, that's support for their implementation and approach I'm also deeply conflicted about form factor. I like small panels LED's like Radions the most esthetically. Yet, I can't deny the data showing a bank of T5's or 5-8 strip LED's will often outperform them in terms of support to the coral and zooxanthellae. The conflict stems from my tank being as much a living piece of art and a noticeable item of furniture, as it is a life support system for these amazing marine animals. Meaning I have to enjoy looking at it. And I enjoy looking at Radions more than looking at a T5 panel. I personally think the G6 lens is a good compromise on this topic. As for older technology, I don't and won't make comparisons. I have grown plants under both T5's and Halides. But never coral. By the time I started reefing, LED's were already well established. I hope that's feedback in line with what you were asking for. And if I didn't agree with what you're presenting and trying to do, I wouldn't be engaging this much. Best of luck Sir.
Thanks for the feedback!. That last bit about form factor vs biology is the biggest barrier. there is overwhelming reluctance for both customers and stores to stock. Fixtures can be elegant looking with one cord but $2700 will always seem a lot more expensive than 3x $900. There has been almost no adoption of huge panels like the Stratton or coral care. Huge panels are expensive, still have multiple cords and hanging solutions and 90% don't know the biology benefits. So for that reason, I agree that medium-size ultra-wide angle lights are the compromise and will likely continue to be the most successful. I am hopeful that strips become the modular option that is ideal for biology, easy to install, low profile and doesn't have the sticker shock. We will see.
i have had a ATI sunpower over my main display for 7 years, i swapped it out for 2x Gen 5 Radions, and after a few months I swapped it back, and used the radions on smaller tanks and without a doubt no matter what i do, the growth and life in the tank is just better on the T5's.
If you guys are correct on this the new Giesemann V12 is going to beat any LED on the market for coral health given the spectrum and the spread. I can't wait to see the reviews on that light.
One thing I’ve learned though life is a lot of people don’t like change and will come up with far fetched arguments to validate their choices - too much spread!!! Also I’m sure the BRS team are over testing lights but would be cool to see the changes over the evolution of the Radions - it might help sell a few more Gen 6’s 😊
Very interesting conversation! I think BRSTV is making the community progress by a lot with all the research. Also, how many people knew T5’s didn’t have UV in their spectrum?
@BRStv only UVC is destructive to DNA, not UVA and UVB wavelengths. Please look at the reptile keeping world for evidence. The uv in reef lights is pretty weak anyway, try using bulbs designed for reptiles if you want to experiment. UVA is part of the visible spectrum of all reptiles and amphibians (don’t know about fish), and they actually often suffer lethargy and depression without proper UVA light.
Halides and T5 are better for the simple reason you can’t tweak the spectrum and screw it up. Run Radion pros or Reefbreeders at 100% and don’t mess with it and you’ll get the same result.
Yeah, run the Radions at 100% and watch your corals lose all their zooxanthellae, lol..... This is why people have so much trouble is advice like this.
It is the set it and forget it aspect that take alot of people out of the hobby. There are also the gimmicks that bring people into the hobby like a thunderstorm setting or some disco effect and think it is cool. Some fish have a hard enough time not being spooked just walking by. People want results too quickly. Always a chase of the next new coral that will make them thousands. LED's are amazing in my expierience if you can stop messing with sliders. I rented a par meter, found my par range at my color preference and never touched it again. I would love to see a controlled test of a tank that doesnt get touched spectrum wise vs a tank where someone is always trying to find the perfect color of the coral they see online to match their coral. See if the coral adjusts to a new spectrum quickly or take months to adapt. Easy to do with both LED or T5.
My main observations: 1) T5’s and MH are the most cost efficient way to provide a blanket of light. It takes you about 5-7 years to recover your initial LED cost on electrical savings alone… and that is assuming you do have electrical savings when you blanket the tank with LED modules. Going with the mantra of “there is no magic Photon”, LED’s Photons will require the same amount of power when you need to blanket a tank. 2) Spectrum blending… ha, here is where the magic photon starts to make sense. LEDs, no mater how many diffusers you get, will always be using multiple different spectrum LEDs that will hopefully blend before they reach the coral. In fact, even with diffusers, when you add surface agitation that blend is never as homogeneous as what you get in T5’s / MH. 3) true UVB radiation down to 300nm and lower. THis is what the sun produces and is in fact known to promote vitamin D growth which is a clear booster of the immune system. THis spectrum is in the sun, and it bathes the corals. I laugh when I hear all the LED “pros” saying that it is irrelevant to the corals because there is no scientific proof that it is necessary. I would like to know where is the scientific proff to the contrary? Having “successful” tanks with LEDs is as much of a proof as having successful MH. I would also wager that those old style MH tanks tended to last longer without STN or RTN because of the potential sterilizer effect of the UVB radiation, or even simply the strengthening of the coral’s immune system. What do I use? LEDs 😊. Why? Because I an fortunate enough not to care about the cost difference and I like the controllability and the look they provide. Do I believe it is better? No.
I think this sums it up, 10+ years ago lighting wasn't a problem. The technology change was the problem. However, technology desires and availability is changing so we need to change with it or get left behind.
One very big assumption here is that corals and fish produce vitamin D from UVB. It may be out there but I haven’t found the research to support this assumption. The vast majority of coral and fish never see UVB in the wild. Vitamin D is easily supplemented with diet for us and our livestock.
@@raisethereef I understand your point, but I do find it surprising that on one hand we want to emulate down to the Trace Element level the chemistry of the Ocean water in our tanks (and there is also very little evidence of what each of those trace elements actually do), but on the other hand we want to argue that our corals have no need for the full spectrum of sunlight when they take about 85% of their energy needs from photosynthesis.
Consider the difference between good council for the average reefer and the conversation that trailblazers are having . For the 90% emulating others success in an artificial environment produces better results than emulating the ocean. For the trailblazers emulating the ocean is how we find out more and when enough of us are successful and can produce clear repeatable results we pass that onto the 90%.
A quick summary of the video: The Ati sunpower is the gold standard but you don't want to use that you want to use a big array of leds like one xr15 every half a foot to achieve the same thing as a single ati sunpower can do at a fraction of the cost 🤣
Lol, I JUST argued with Ryan about MH and T5 being far superior to LED. He argued vehemently, that LED could do everything that MH/T5 could and referenced the BRS tank. It only took that tank something like 5 years and WWC, Unique Corals and everyone else came to help them. LED is a great supplemental lighting source and does help, but it will never compare to MH or T5. I find this video funny because he's flip flopped off his argument with me. Of course they'll push LED, it's what BRS sells. Don't forget they also own Neptune that produces the Sky LED. So yeah, either spend 6 grand doing proper LED lighting with enough units to blanket the tank or spend 400 to 1000 on T5 or MH with a complete setup.
@@hurricaneaquatics This video is nothing but an infomercial. The point I am trying to make is why would you want to do it with LED when you can do it with T5s far cheaper. The Germans are not going to stop making T5's for quite a few years yet.
I'm reading after having moved and I am looking at my four foot 4 bulb dimmable SunPower sitting in a box for f'cks sake. Time to get to work... Long live T5
Here in Europe all flourescent tubes, included T5´s will be prohibited from 2023 on, so we are forced to switch over to LED anyways. Isn't that the case in the usa also??
There may be some niche industries that can still use them in the EU but once they are done there they are done here too because the companies that make T5 tubes for the US are in the EU.
Guess I’m a little lost lol. I got 3 ai primes for my brand new 120. I have enough room and might trade it in for a 175. Now should I run 4 primes? And add T5s. Primes are suggested to be at 13” off the water. So will the T5s be ok that high?
If you decide to add T5s into the mix, they'll do just fine 13" off the surface of the water. Maybe a touch of light spill into the surrounding room, but that may or may not bother you.
@@BRStv I’m thinking about making a canopy so The light spill I wont have to worry about. I was just wondering how the T5 would do at the ai prime recommend height. Should I use 4 or 5 primes? I was going to use the 60” hybrid T5 light. It comes with 4 light brackets. But I just wanted to make sure I didn’t need another prime for the perfect light set up.
Leds since the diy day never had any problem with color and growing coral. So I don't know we're your trying to go with this. Led is user error. That's it.
User error is a big part of it. The purpose of this whole lighting series is to highlight that different lights do different things and to reach what we're trying to achieve, we need to use each of the tools a little bit differently. Mounting height alone is a huge part of setting up a modern day LED light fixture correctly.
Awesome guys! That natural sun-lit reef is mine, when I started this project so many years ago I never could have imagined the amazing support I've received. With our life and family struggles the reefing community has been the amazing, thanks so much for the wonderful words of encouragement through the years!
Such an epic tank and concept 🙌
This live was so good! Ryan squared is truly exponential knowledge.
My first light was t12's over a 45. My 2nd light was powered compacts over a 75. Ahh the good Ole days of constantly replacing ballasts!
I feel it is a combination of points at what makes an optimal lighting set up for coral. The top priority being a wide coverage of lights to envelope the coral in light as you point out. The next keeping you schedule relatively in the same spectrum through the day without deviating too much from popping blues evening and night and warmer spectrum through mid day. The third being color blending (diffusion). My experience showed me that we strive for stability in water chemistry but stability in underwater dynamic spectrum is just as important. Think about it, when you use T5 or halides it is usually light on, same spectrum through the day, then light off. That's as stable as you can make lights. Its too easy to play with color graphs on leds. STABILITY in lighting is key. Thanks Ryan for drilling these concepts into the reefing hobby. Its been long time needed.
Glad to be of service :)
Thanks guys, this has answered so many questions re lighting I have had over the years. I think this video has created a fantastic benchmark for light choice and set up.
Keep up the great work, well done.
thanks for the kind words :)
Speaking broadly, it's my hope manufacturers take note of the concepts you're talking about here. You didn't throw out any crazy ideas. You may have challenged peoples long standing assertions, but that's often a good thing. And the vast majority of what you discussed matched the general scientific understanding, at least to the point it can be understood.
You're not pulling this out of left field, you're getting direct input from both commercial coral farms and college professors who spend their lives studying these topics. Exactly where you should be looking for this information. And for what it's worth. It also matched much of what is taught in other fields, like indoor agriculture. Though with notable differences such as attenuation, or the absence of Chloro B, or the inclusion of Chloro C2. (which is part of my own background)
As for what I'd like. I very much value the ability to fine tune LED's. I enjoy advanced settings. But I'm also coming from a formal background that included college lectures on indoor lighting. Meaning I am not the typical new-reefer in terms of light technology. New Reefers who can often get the wrong light (or the wrong light settings), fails, and can't explain why.
New hobbyist's especially, and certainly those who don't have a frame of reference for these quite deep talks on lighting: they need "plug and play". Approaches like the Kessil Logic or the Blade offer a far better entry level path for anyone new or unsure of what's taking place, because they were built taking the biology in mind (though I'm not entirely certain if that's happy coincidence or sound research). And that's not an endorsement of the product, that's support for their implementation and approach
I'm also deeply conflicted about form factor. I like small panels LED's like Radions the most esthetically. Yet, I can't deny the data showing a bank of T5's or 5-8 strip LED's will often outperform them in terms of support to the coral and zooxanthellae. The conflict stems from my tank being as much a living piece of art and a noticeable item of furniture, as it is a life support system for these amazing marine animals. Meaning I have to enjoy looking at it. And I enjoy looking at Radions more than looking at a T5 panel. I personally think the G6 lens is a good compromise on this topic.
As for older technology, I don't and won't make comparisons. I have grown plants under both T5's and Halides. But never coral. By the time I started reefing, LED's were already well established.
I hope that's feedback in line with what you were asking for. And if I didn't agree with what you're presenting and trying to do, I wouldn't be engaging this much. Best of luck Sir.
Thanks for the feedback!. That last bit about form factor vs biology is the biggest barrier. there is overwhelming reluctance for both customers and stores to stock. Fixtures can be elegant looking with one cord but $2700 will always seem a lot more expensive than 3x $900. There has been almost no adoption of huge panels like the Stratton or coral care. Huge panels are expensive, still have multiple cords and hanging solutions and 90% don't know the biology benefits. So for that reason, I agree that medium-size ultra-wide angle lights are the compromise and will likely continue to be the most successful. I am hopeful that strips become the modular option that is ideal for biology, easy to install, low profile and doesn't have the sticker shock. We will see.
Great guest too
i have had a ATI sunpower over my main display for 7 years, i swapped it out for 2x Gen 5 Radions, and after a few months I swapped it back, and used the radions on smaller tanks and without a doubt no matter what i do, the growth and life in the tank is just better on the T5's.
Great show!
If you guys are correct on this the new Giesemann V12 is going to beat any LED on the market for coral health given the spectrum and the spread. I can't wait to see the reviews on that light.
Awesome work guys. I was almost second guessing my light set again and a new famous reef show discussed UV around the 17,000 gallon range. 😂
One thing I’ve learned though life is a lot of people don’t like change and will come up with far fetched arguments to validate their choices - too much spread!!!
Also I’m sure the BRS team are over testing lights but would be cool to see the changes over the evolution of the Radions - it might help sell a few more Gen 6’s 😊
Very interesting conversation! I think BRSTV is making the community progress by a lot with all the research. Also, how many people knew T5’s didn’t have UV in their spectrum?
Seems like all the people who are hung up in the UV discussion forgot to look :)
What are the new radion g6 spectrum settings Ryan mentioned
UV is not important to coral growth. Ask any marine biologist. UV is just has harmful to coral as it is to use. Fish and algae is a different story.
@@BRStv haha to be clear I did watch the video and I didn’t know UV were not essential nor that T5’s didn’t have them.
@BRStv only UVC is destructive to DNA, not UVA and UVB wavelengths. Please look at the reptile keeping world for evidence. The uv in reef lights is pretty weak anyway, try using bulbs designed for reptiles if you want to experiment. UVA is part of the visible spectrum of all reptiles and amphibians (don’t know about fish), and they actually often suffer lethargy and depression without proper UVA light.
I believe the small tank of the month is Lou's from WWC
Whoops! Wrong Lou 😅
Halides and T5 are better for the simple reason you can’t tweak the spectrum and screw it up. Run Radion pros or Reefbreeders at 100% and don’t mess with it and you’ll get the same result.
Adjusting the intensity wattage to appropriately per the amount of par you need.
Yeah, run the Radions at 100% and watch your corals lose all their zooxanthellae, lol..... This is why people have so much trouble is advice like this.
It is the set it and forget it aspect that take alot of people out of the hobby. There are also the gimmicks that bring people into the hobby like a thunderstorm setting or some disco effect and think it is cool. Some fish have a hard enough time not being spooked just walking by. People want results too quickly. Always a chase of the next new coral that will make them thousands. LED's are amazing in my expierience if you can stop messing with sliders. I rented a par meter, found my par range at my color preference and never touched it again. I would love to see a controlled test of a tank that doesnt get touched spectrum wise vs a tank where someone is always trying to find the perfect color of the coral they see online to match their coral. See if the coral adjusts to a new spectrum quickly or take months to adapt. Easy to do with both LED or T5.
/agree. They are life support, not toys
ATI blue plus was the gold standard until the sky came out and we all learned about percentages.
Great watch, but I still think my t5s are magical😂😂😂
My main observations: 1) T5’s and MH are the most cost efficient way to provide a blanket of light. It takes you about 5-7 years to recover your initial LED cost on electrical savings alone… and that is assuming you do have electrical savings when you blanket the tank with LED modules. Going with the mantra of “there is no magic Photon”, LED’s Photons will require the same amount of power when you need to blanket a tank. 2) Spectrum blending… ha, here is where the magic photon starts to make sense. LEDs, no mater how many diffusers you get, will always be using multiple different spectrum LEDs that will hopefully blend before they reach the coral. In fact, even with diffusers, when you add surface agitation that blend is never as homogeneous as what you get in T5’s / MH. 3) true UVB radiation down to 300nm and lower. THis is what the sun produces and is in fact known to promote vitamin D growth which is a clear booster of the immune system. THis spectrum is in the sun, and it bathes the corals. I laugh when I hear all the LED “pros” saying that it is irrelevant to the corals because there is no scientific proof that it is necessary. I would like to know where is the scientific proff to the contrary? Having “successful” tanks with LEDs is as much of a proof as having successful MH. I would also wager that those old style MH tanks tended to last longer without STN or RTN because of the potential sterilizer effect of the UVB radiation, or even simply the strengthening of the coral’s immune system. What do I use? LEDs 😊. Why? Because I an fortunate enough not to care about the cost difference and I like the controllability and the look they provide. Do I believe it is better? No.
I think this sums it up, 10+ years ago lighting wasn't a problem. The technology change was the problem. However, technology desires and availability is changing so we need to change with it or get left behind.
One very big assumption here is that corals and fish produce vitamin D from UVB. It may be out there but I haven’t found the research to support this assumption. The vast majority of coral and fish never see UVB in the wild.
Vitamin D is easily supplemented with diet for us and our livestock.
@@raisethereef I understand your point, but I do find it surprising that on one hand we want to emulate down to the Trace Element level the chemistry of the Ocean water in our tanks (and there is also very little evidence of what each of those trace elements actually do), but on the other hand we want to argue that our corals have no need for the full spectrum of sunlight when they take about 85% of their energy needs from photosynthesis.
Consider the difference between good council for the average reefer and the conversation that trailblazers are having .
For the 90% emulating others success in an artificial environment produces better results than emulating the ocean.
For the trailblazers emulating the ocean is how we find out more and when enough of us are successful and can produce clear repeatable results we pass that onto the 90%.
A quick summary of the video: The Ati sunpower is the gold standard but you don't want to use that you want to use a big array of leds like one xr15 every half a foot to achieve the same thing as a single ati sunpower can do at a fraction of the cost 🤣
Lol, I JUST argued with Ryan about MH and T5 being far superior to LED. He argued vehemently, that LED could do everything that MH/T5 could and referenced the BRS tank. It only took that tank something like 5 years and WWC, Unique Corals and everyone else came to help them.
LED is a great supplemental lighting source and does help, but it will never compare to MH or T5. I find this video funny because he's flip flopped off his argument with me.
Of course they'll push LED, it's what BRS sells. Don't forget they also own Neptune that produces the Sky LED.
So yeah, either spend 6 grand doing proper LED lighting with enough units to blanket the tank or spend 400 to 1000 on T5 or MH with a complete setup.
@@hurricaneaquatics This video is nothing but an infomercial. The point I am trying to make is why would you want to do it with LED when you can do it with T5s far cheaper. The Germans are not going to stop making T5's for quite a few years yet.
@@TwoScottishReefers Oh I totally agree. The hypocrisy is real.
I'm reading after having moved and I am looking at my four foot 4 bulb dimmable SunPower sitting in a box for f'cks sake. Time to get to work... Long live T5
Here in Europe all flourescent tubes, included T5´s will be prohibited from 2023 on, so we are forced to switch over to LED anyways. Isn't that the case in the usa also??
There may be some niche industries that can still use them in the EU but once they are done there they are done here too because the companies that make T5 tubes for the US are in the EU.
They gave T5 bulbs a pass. They are not going to be banned.
that is wrong , still avaliable
Guess I’m a little lost lol. I got 3 ai primes for my brand new 120. I have enough room and might trade it in for a 175. Now should I run 4 primes? And add T5s. Primes are suggested to be at 13” off the water. So will the T5s be ok that high?
If you decide to add T5s into the mix, they'll do just fine 13" off the surface of the water. Maybe a touch of light spill into the surrounding room, but that may or may not bother you.
@@BRStv I’m thinking about making a canopy so The light spill I wont have to worry about. I was just wondering how the T5 would do at the ai prime recommend height. Should I use 4 or 5 primes? I was going to use the 60” hybrid T5 light. It comes with 4 light brackets. But I just wanted to make sure I didn’t need another prime for the perfect light set up.
One thing about this hobby these videos over complicate having a fish tank. Do water changes. Don’t buy a bunch of equipment
Brilliant marketing though
Leds since the diy day never had any problem with color and growing coral. So I don't know we're your trying to go with this. Led is user error. That's it.
User error is a big part of it. The purpose of this whole lighting series is to highlight that different lights do different things and to reach what we're trying to achieve, we need to use each of the tools a little bit differently. Mounting height alone is a huge part of setting up a modern day LED light fixture correctly.