Why I deleted GrapheneOS
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- Опубликовано: 25 май 2023
- Chats you couldn't see on screen: drive.google.com/file/d/1kncB...
OId GrapheneOS videos, which were obviously done by someone whose goal was to sabotage the project(eyeroll):
• GrapheneOS; the greate...
• GrapheneOS strikes aga...
• GrapheneOS: Documentin...
• Louis Rossmann takes a...
![Luke Combs - Ain’t No Love In Oklahoma (From Twisters: The Album) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J6YlaeACE4E/mqdefault.jpg)
"You have been warned! I will expose you"
Louis next day: Makes a 20 min video 'exposing' himself. :D
Never cave to blackmail, as long as you live.
@@rossmanngroup You are excellent.
@@rossmanngroup If you d idn't catch the link I put here yesterday- He stepped down
I hate cancel culture and believed in this project but it's worth noting that we would never let major tech companies get away with treating reviewers or critics this way. Especially the black mail threats
@@xtremeownagedotcom he saw it
This is informative, and unfortunate
😂😂 you got there first, My disappointment is immeasurable & my day is ruined!
This is informative, and unfortunate
@@AidanMacgregor-Personalit is informative, and unfortunate
This is informative and unfortunate
Oh How dare you 😤😠
02:05 “I don’t engage in these conversations, they’re unhealthy.” That was perfectly said. Such pointless drama from this other guy.
schizos man, matrix is full of them xD
This is a VERY mindful take -- sometimes it's not about correcting another who is incorrect or has a wrong view of you and recognizing it's not healthy and just walking away. This is very hard for me to do -- so I do applaud Louis on this.
I'm so curious to know how old the other guy is, he reminds me of me when I was 15 on irc.
I remember TrueCrypt dev quit the same way, and his project was about security as well. A food for thought.
In defence of the guy: it's pretty easy to gaslight a regular person into this paranoid state, alphabet agencies use this tactic a lot and they don't like your devices and programs being secure from them. So this case might not be as schizo as you think. *Especially if an actual swatting attempt was a thing.*
@@neom0nk hes 34 or 35
One of the inherent advantages of Open Source is that when a project needs new leadership, but the current leadership doesn't recognize that fact, the project can simply be forked, perpetuating the good idea and leaving the failed leaders to howl into the abyss until / unless they decide to grow up.
I hope there is someone out there with the experience and knowledge to be able to fork and take over management of the project, but I don't know how many people like that are out there.
This does not always work tho. Sometimes the community around a project is quite small or specific and they don't always just flow with the forks. This happened with a project I was doing some lite work on that then got forked because the main dev went on some power trip.. The project was forked and the fork is vastly better then the original, however the vast majority of the users are still on the original. Forking does not always solve the little napoleons that seam to pop up in OSS sometimes.
This is what I hate, honestly. You've declared it can be forked, great. Are you the one who's going to lead that? Or are you just hoping that someone else will do it?
and now we have 600 linux distros
@@funnyberries4017lmao yes
This just absolutely baffles me. He had an enthusiastic, glowing endorsement from one of the most trusted, well regarded tech personalities there is. 100% free of charge might I add. All he had to do was not be a complete dick, and he's still managed to blow it. I hope he gets the help he needs.
Honestly. On one side yes. On another, it shows that the guy clearly is a "genius". Usually geniuses are good at something (like tech), but lack social skills because of their genius (unless they are self reflective and learn it).
And he also seems passionate about his project.
So yeah, he might not have the best social skills, but I would at least trust that this project is coded well and securely.
I'd say, at this point, help is too late, and not going to help at all.
I'd get if someone has immense distrust against the world, I have gone through very rough circumstances that make it difficult for me to trust almost anyone, except those close to me.
*HOWEVER*, this is not a valid excuse to constantly accuse other people of doing horrendous acts.
I'm not saying he has trust people just because they've known him for a long time, but the least he could do is act gentlemanly and not absolutely insane.
I find his behaviour disgusting, horrendous, and repulsive.
I am not a saint of any sort, and he who has had many, more than many, chances to fix himself, he has not. This is who he is.
I know people exactly like this, he has dug too far down, and now no matter who says what he'd rather die with his pride, rather than admit he's wrong.
But that's just my opinion.
@@hoodie_catif he didn't have that distrust and wasn't extremely irrationally emotional, why would he pour his life into this project? He would've been working to extract money out of his consumers to benefit himself materially
People want these one of a kind passionate people to provide them with high quality free stuff, but also want those passionate people to be regular and normal to please our sensibilities
@@NJ-wb1cz Then he needs to step back and leave the whole pr thing to someone else who can at least moderate what they say, if you want to be a genius with no social skills then great, just leave the social part to someone else and not lash out on someone who is one of the biggest and most genuine supporters of your project
Perfect example of someone snatching defeat from the jaws of success.
Don't mind if I would reuse that in the future.
the jaws of victory
I love the way you state that. Kind of illustrates self-sabotage.
I do believe it was Abraham Lincoln who either came up with the saying or atleast made it common when critiquing a piss poor generals performance.
@@bastiat691 Seriously thought the phrase was misstated, and not intentional ?
As an autistic person I want thank you profusely for telling individual that our condition is not an excuse to bully people. It pisses me off when people use autism as a justification for treating others poorly. Like anyone else we are accountable to others for how our behaviour impacts them.
The only reason I like to use it as an excuse is to say retarded, i grew up in a world saying that and I will continue to say it.
Some autistic people are genuinely unable to control their behaviour but anyone capable of writing these kind of messages is so-called “functional” enough to be in control of whether they are an asshole or not. (I’m saying that as someone who is on the spectrum and works in social care for people with ASD and LD).
carnivore diet helps against bi-polar, depression, anxiety, autism... and more
@@user-lm3ll1jp7fumm
@@BanjoPixelSnackmaybe 95% of the time ;) point being when overstimulated and overwhelmed and the primal rage takes over, it's easy to be an asshole, but once that ebbs, its a choice to continue being an asshole....
Unfortunately, the OSS world is full of people who feel entitled to behave like abusive assholes, with the excuse that they're just being "straight talking" and avoiding "enforced corporate bullshit politeness" or something to that effect. What they're missing is that there's a reason communicating like this will get you fired in a normal place of work, that goes way beyond overzealous cargo cult HR departments.
I'm autistic myself, for what it's worth, and I can recommend doing a web search for "autistic paranoia". It's something I am aware that I am prone to, that I have to constantly fight to suppress, and I think I may have just seen what it would look like if I stopped trying to suppress it. Thank you for the reminder of why I put in the effort.
Thank you for putting in the effort and thus making the world a nicer place to be.
Lol that depends how you mean. Look at Linus Torvalds. Without him there would probably be no "OSS world" at all, and he's known to have "behaved abusively" before.
I feel like the majority of engineers are not overly emotional people, and the majority don't mind straight talk. If something is designed like shit, I don't mind at all someone saying straight up that it is designed like shit - provided they can explain why and it's logical. I feel like sometimes, people really need to be put down to be able to improve. There are those many cases, where someone thinks they are an exceptional engineer, when they're actually terrible. The problem is when you get a highly sensitive person who doesn't like criticism working with a team of engineers who expect perfection - usually they end up whining about how they were treated without actually having the introspectiveness to understand why.
Then again, I think there's a separation between "straight talking" and what this guy is doing. The things this guy is saying to Louis are clearly not "straight", they're paranoid and borderline some kind of illness. There's a big difference between telling someone to fuck off out of a project because their work is shit and they're not capable of doing it properly, and accusing everyone of attacking you with no justification and saying things that sound borderline crazy.
@@ryanjay6241If engineers weren't emotional, they wouldn't use swear words or "attacks" at all. Linus Torvalds himself apologized for his past behavior and promises to do better. Honesty and transparency are very important, if something violates an important principle of course it should be pointed out directly. But none of that is an excuse to cuss somebody out. Adults should have the emotional maturity to handle things with tact, and that is one of the most crucial skills of a leadership position. (Which, BTW, is often the issue - these solo devs with great technical chops and productivity have no idea how to manage a big project with thousands of users and dozens of contributors. And there's simply limits to what a lone dev can do.)
@@ryanjay6241 Not going to debate Linus, who I generally hold in a very high regard, but the OSS movement and an abrasive communication style predate him (see Theo de Raadt and the NetBSD split).
People never need to be put down in order to improve. If you genuinely want someone to improve, you give them well balanced, honest but most importantly constructive feedback, without making them feel worthless. Now, people are different, and some are indeed a lot thicker skinned than others, but regardless of how readily they may brush it off, destructive negativity is never part of what makes someone improve - that'll still be the constructive feedback part in the end, even if it first has to be unwound from a layer of invectives.
@@radiantxpdd true, however i doubt that linus' goal is to get people to improve - probably just tired of people who (to him, at least) don't spend the bare minimum of effort getting PRs to... well, any kind of standard at all.
not that it's a _good_ way to behave, but i think it's _understandable_, at least.
"Autism is not an excuse to bully people."
Thank you, Louis. That was a classy way to handle that he threw the spectrum card at you. I know so many people on the spectrum that are respectful and treat people well even if their ability to communicate is challenging.
As someone who's on the spectrum, I can vouch for this as well. Using that as an excuse to bully people is absolutely absurd
Austism is the excuse du jour for being an ass these days.
Normally people with autism are supposed to be polite, docile, and apologetic.
Ironically enough, trying to use this card is the kind of bs that people on the spectrum are great at calling out.
I was interacting with a kid who was autistic, but verbal, and he was polite! People seem to use *insert mental thing here* as an excuse to be a crap person. It is a shame.
The way he communicated with you makes it even more informative and unfortunate. I'm really over this "do this or I'll expose you" schtick too. Instead of having a public chat about it (say an interview) it's "believe me or die"
Your commrnt is a sad commentary on the way the world has become.
My God. That guy comes across as a real douche . Can't please some people .
@@rricci Cry more
Imagine blowing up someone's DM about getting attacked with fabricated evidence while generating higher quality evidence of the exact behaviors you're disputing.
@@eternalgamers10 What's wrong? Sad your boy, Byedone is down in the polls? Need a safe place place?
Some of y'all are finally coming around and seeing what we've already known. It has been like this for as long as I can remember. I've always preferred to self-build LineageOS with specific GrapheneOS changes, because at the end of the day, I do not trust that man, and I do not trust his builds.
It's sad, but I'm kinda glad that Daniel finally is stepping down and letting the project go to other people who are more capable at communicating. I'm glad to hear that he is finally taking a step back and realizing that he is actively harming the project, and that it isn't just his little play-toy. Maybe other people will be more willing to contribute and use the project now that he is gone.
As an aside, the other thing that kills me is like Techlore orchestrated the drama against Daniel, as if Daniel hasn't been at the forefront of drama *long* before the Techlore vid (cough cough CopperheadOS).
People forget about CopperheadOS but it is important to remember! Daniel deleted the signing keys and screwed everyone over
Perhaps he is starting to have some awareness, but his stepping down messages state his victimhood as the reason rather than his active malice toward others. Who really knows if he understands the harm he attempts to cause others, and the harm he has caused to himself.
@@truectl where can i see his announcement?
I dont think he has a problem with communication. He communicated what he was thinking well. Thinking this way, being so emotional, irrational and refusing accountability is the problem here. You are saying he shouldn't have said this. Im saying he shouldn't be thinking this way in the first place.
What do you use now ? What about louis?
What a word salad. So since everyone with a mental disorder is checking in, I am schizophrenic, and that is text book delusional thinking. The choices of words, the elevated sense of drama, the vague threats to you and also from you according to him. This is a person that needs to talk to someone, and see how long this has been going on. Most people think that if they do not see or hear things that they do not have schizophrenia, but there is a subtype without hallucinations and it often goes missed because it gets misdiagnosed as something else. Paranoid fits that people are against you and twenty responses to "hey I am not going to pursue this line of thinking" are indications of a person that is paranoid and lacks insight into their condition.
stop eating sugar and you will go back to normal, everyone is shizo now cause everyone eats shit gmo food with pesticide sugars and are mind model modified to engage in social justice battles all the time
This is sad, Apple and Google probably grinning at the incompetence of their competitors. Poor guy doesn't realize you are one of the best advocates he would ever have (due to your own inclinations and projects) and most normal users will be way harsher to deal with.
Unfortunately, agreed.
This is a sad omen of a project ruined by an ego and a person using a common disability to try to shield them from blame and to give them the right to bully others... This is NEVER ok or acceptable.
Reading this comment reminded me of the whole incident with Phil Fish, the creator of the game Fez. People liked his game a lot, and so wanted to post videos about it, even getting big youtubers interested in it, then he got mad and decided that any money these videos made should be going to him and not the people who made the video.
So many people tried to explain how much free marketing the videos were (especially the ones from big youtubers) but he just ignored everything about it, and now everyone just kinda hates him for it.
he is no longer an advocate where he knee-jerk reacts with a bashing comment like this that so many of his supporters and followers will stumble upon.
they're both Autidiots in this exchange, but Louis lit the fuse first.
i'm still grateful for all the right to repair progress his made.
all this is just "unfortunate and disappointing." and i can say that because Louis actually provide all sides of the conflict, unlike the other video that he watched where evrything was one sides.
@@RandomDeforge The thing is, Louis was giving him an opportunity to present his side. Instead of just saying hey I don't like that you put that comment because it not showing both sides and misrepresenting me, here's the proof that he left things out and took things out of context, he just decides to attack and deflect from providing evidence.
That makes me pause and ask is he mad that the was misrepresented and Louis didn't talk to him to clarify things, or is his anger really about his bad character being exposed.
It's almost like installing a ROM created by a bunch of devs living in their mom's basement with zero social skills is not a good idea...
When I was diagnosed bi-polar in my early 20s, my mother told me the most useful thing ever: "You bi-polar disorder is NOT an excuse for bad behavior. If you use it as an excuse, I'm holding you personally accountable." This guy REALLY needed this advice when he was found to be neuro-divergent.
Absolutely. Autism can be much harder to combat than bipolar as it arises from structural dysfunction rather than a correctable neurochemical imbalance.
However, even stroke victims manage. Just because I'm autistic doesn't mean I have any more excuses than they do. I can only expect more time to adjust. That's it.
I'm autistic too and have an autistic parent, which I think helped avoid coddling. I had a model that I could grow up functional and responsible. Certain online autistic communities encouraged this crybully behavior which I previously thought autistic people were incapable of, due to the fact that I did not perceive social subtext and took people's word on their emotional states at face value and could not engage in paranoid speculation as to people's motives. Unfortunately, no. The Internet enables autistic people to access social neuroses that we previously would have been unlikely to cultivate because we wouldn't have found enough people on a similar wavelength to build and maintain a circle of shared delusion. Getting locked into an online echo chamber unleashes maladaptive traits of neurotypicals (like groupthink) in autistic people and maladaptive traits of autistics (like social isolationism) in neurotypicals.
Having once temporarily been immersed in such a circle, I learned my autism didn't make me immune to this kind of social neurosis, that it was only because it was statistically improbable that I would share the perspective or desires of a group that I had previously avoided succumbing to irrational social norms. Like that Star Trek Voyager episode where a telepathic space monster manipulates the crew by showing them illusions that it is a pathway back to Earth when actually it's going to eat the ship. Seven of Nine, the ex-Borg who is not emotionally attached to Earth, is the only crewmember not fooled, so she thinks she is immune to its telepathic manipulation. Later when the rest of the crew is passed out and she is implementing a plan that requires firing two shots at it, her sensors indicate that Voyager was expelled after only one shot. Then the alien who was helping her yells out, "Why haven't you fired the second charge?" and helps her realize that the sensor data telling her that one was enough was an illusion from the alien entity. Because everyone conscious desired escaping the creature's grasps, Seven's desires finally aligned with those of the group, and so now she was susceptible to the deception, as much as anyone else, and only her experience of being an outside observer to the group think and the intervention of the alien she trusted to be on the same side allowed her to break free of the illusion. Through a similar experience, I learned that my autism didn't render me impervious or any less inherently susceptible to groupthink than anyone else, much like Seven being ex-Borg didn't render her immune to telepathic manipulation, and that in fact perceiving yourself as impervious to such influence only makes you MORE vulnerable to succumbing.
Thanks for listening. As usual, I hope you learned something (apologies to Mr. Rossmann).
That is the downsides of too much psychology
@@decyattysyachpchyolThank you for sharing this! I mean it. I do wish you a very happy and fulfilling life!
@@Mavendow Heads up, the "neurochemical imbalance" hypothesis has proven to be bollocks.
Welp. I met you in person last year at a Rice University career fair, and I was inspired by you to install GrapheneOS on my then new Pixel 6. I will now have to install something new. This is truly informative and unfortunate.
It was fun meeting you all! Being next to the Google booth was a trip.
Don't engage with people like that and do not allow them to drag you into their swamp of misguided anger and hate. Most importantly, don't ever let them make you doubt yourself. Never ever doubt yourself just for the simple fact that you know you will always do the right thing if you've wronged someone. Stop worrying so much about possibly being wrong, and know that you can always do the right and corrective thing later. I say this because you are a person people listen to, a leader, and people unfortunately respong waaay more to a more aggressive leadership than some of the apologetic, accepting and peacemaking attitudes of more wiser individuals. Just my humble opinion. Much love and respect.
By the way I really believe this person needs help, this is beyond therapy this sounds like psychosis. If you do know any of his family memebers or roommates or anybody who is in daily physical contact with him its worth communicating with because at this stage he would be unaware of his own condition (lacks insight). Nothing to be done from anybody else though.
Can’t say when I woke up I would have expected to see Louis getting blackmailed by a GrapheneOS developer
So weird
You just travelled to a parallel universe.
Truly bizarre...
neckbeards gonna neckbeard
If there's one thing Louis has taught us, its that anything can happen to him 😂
Louis was blackmailed?
I was once told, the fastest way to derail a conversation is to assume malice on part of the other before the conversation can even begin. This is what I think Daniel has done.
it's an intentional tactic. the message wasn't to engage in good faith, it was to accost and harass into censorious compliance.
@@TheJacklikesvideos Well said Mr. Paul, well said.
This happens alot in the professional environment. They mainly do it to feel like they are dominant. It just ends in them having empty pockets thinking they somehow won by having a bigger following. At the end of day, its just another person trying to use their position to harass others and sometimes get the reality check.
Why comment so vaguely on a video of a guy you don't know when you're in Louis positon. And then he is talking about communication. If i read that comment i assume Louis agrees with the video, and not that it's about the way the guy communicates.
@@TheJacklikesvideos It is never done in good faith
Back in the Lineage OS days I had trouble compiling the project to my phone and tried to ask help at the official IRC channel. I described what kind of compiler errors I was getting and even followed them with my own suggestion questions of what might be the issue. I got replies from one guy who instead of helping or answering my questions directly played this snarky game with comments like this:
"nice guess, but try a bit harder"
"that's not it but you are close, try a bit harder to think what it means"
Like dude, you don't have to help me if you don't have any spare time or don't want to do it, time is expensive, but if I read and follow carefully your project's installation and compilation manuals and encounter a problem, I would rather receive no help at all instead of this kind of abusive waste of fucking time. What a great strategy to gain more support and users to your project.
I concluded that you are better off living with absolute minimal exposure to smartphones at all in the end.
Haha that's the Linux community in a nutshell. It's called mate guarding 😅
Why do so many plugin/app/OS/Game Mod/Etc developers have to be the most horrible people known to man to the average user
You would think its because they have to deal with stupid questions all the time, but that would implore the dev to make the guides more detailed right? Some don't even do that.
Instead, they have this god-complex where everything they say, do, etc is correct and other ways of doing it are wrong, which is the most dangerous mindset to have when dealing with cybersecurity. I'll sit back and eat popcorn while watching one of these clowns get hacked because they're actually thinking outside the box, while the developer scrambles to recover his shattered ego.
Mental health is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. I hope he gets the therapy he needs. Well done for dealing with someone's meltdown so well, Louis. I hope you got to enjoy your day. ❤
He stepped down from the project, I really hope he receives the help that he needs to be able to get back on his feet and work on projects like this (in a good way) again. ❤
GrapheneOS guy going full DarkSydePhil with his rationalizations.
Never go full DSP.
At one point it sounded like a hallucinating chatbot.
“Stop harassing us and give us money to meet our donation goal, snort”
i diD nOtHiNG wRoNG, i DiD eVeRyThinG cOrReCT
HOW AM I TOXIC?!?!
his moves didn't come out
If anyone thinks Louis is a bad man, I just have one thing to say. That cat sits next to him during his rants every single day in the most content way with his eyes closed next to his Dad. Absolute trust :)
nerds
Although cats are fantastic,and very choosy-he is not that cat's dad.
Cats are not humans,for better or worse,let alone kids.
Damn
@@alakhazom Ughh shur up
jesus, I haven't noticed the cat until I read your comment.
Well thought out video, interesting, this is the first time i saw anything by you, I subscribed to you out of your ethics and clear thought, Happy Saturday Be Well 🕊️
It's a sad situation because I feel for him, I feel for you, and I especially feel for the project as a whole. Who knows; maybe this will end up being the wakeup call he needs to finally make a change
Been following Daniel Micay since the CopperheadOS fallout. It has become increasingly clear that he has a mental problem that needs to be addressed. It's one thing to get targeted and harrassed by your old project partners but it's an entirely different matter to constantly spin that stuff up for drama and trying to galvanize your community. Especially when that "harrassment" doesn't qualify as such upon closer inspection. I think he has found that when he plays the victim he gets blanket support from people and is now serially abusing this. I am sure that he has at this point in time lost the good will of many people that wanted to support the project (since it's awesome) but couldn't due to his behaviour. It is both fortunate and unfortunate that he tried to do this with someone that doesn't take bullshit forever and has a large enough following and credibility to actually hurt him (and by extension the project). I hope that something positive will come out of this. Thanks for making this video.
he has autism bro, stop being ableist
@Zandabyte @"This is something you see with some open source devs"; as an outsider, whats the inside baseball here? I liekd that coding competition meme, and i operate on these branches of cleanflight when flying, but not familar with large sample of history coding ppl stereotypes
@@lackofeffortfpv7412 not @Zandabyte, but sometimes, people have very specific visions, and are not interested in compromising on that in any way.
There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but ̶O̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶r̶c̶e̶ community developed projects are not well suited for this.
There are some people who want the open source, but not the collaborative community development, but also don't want to be an " Evil" Corporation, so instead of imposing their vision on the project by paying salaries, (because "evil") they impose their vision by making not going along with what they want toxic. And then hope that you (open source dev contributor) go along with it because you care about the project enough that you are unwilling to dump it, and the team is small enough that they need you, so you couldn't let the project die, could you?
Most things people call harassment don't actually fit that. A lot of crimes, in fact, have their term used colloquially in a way that far exceeds the actual legal limit.
Doing things I don't like near or about me isn't harassment (especially if you're a public individual and/or in a public place) and hopefully never will be.
Open source dev here.
The skill set needed to write amazing code is very different to the skill set needed to communicate with other people.
Companies have PR / client liason / whatever departments because the devs (even when socially able) are going to be protective of their code. PR doesn't feel the same ownership and can talk a lot more calmy in the face of criticism.
Now take someone - like myself - whose code forms a large part of their identity. It takes self control to respond to comments 'professionally' when they can be context free. And criticism can be personal rather than objective towards the project.
It can be very hard for single open source dev or a small team to handle the barrage of... people stuff that a big open source project can generate.
You are completely correct about not removing your comment. You have a right to free speech and a right to criticize people, especially with the evidence you have provided. That video about debunking myths about GrapheneOS is the reason why I went out and bought a Pixel phone and installed GrapheneOS.
Keep making great content and don't tolerate stupidity from others.
Free speech is wonderful, but the additional right of not having to listen is equally important.
Also, it wasn't that much a criticism to be that upset about. Its not like he called him a fraud or something worse, he was reacting out of disbelief...
@@rricci I have a right to live in a SOCIETY that is snowflake free.
@Comrade Vlad No actually there are tons of ways in which a company has to honor your ability to express yourself, especially when said forum is public and permits contributions with basically no barrier.
Not that this really had anything to do with the comment.
@@nnthepirateOriginally the government's job was to protect your rights against not just themselves, but other people as well. If the government did their job then yes it would prevent private platforms from deleting forms, comments, and free speech from active users. There's also the right to Free Press, which means that anyone can post anything publicly, and if its false, and defamatory or otherwise, the poster is liable. That being said, no its not your right to not hear it, its your right to change the channel, turn off the device, or exit the app, but you DO NOT have a right to censor someone else's free speech because you don't want to hear it, because you simply don't like what they have to say.
I'm finally trying out GrapheneOS. After years of using De-Google Lineage your videos pushed me to try it. It's awesome so far.
It doesn't matter how, "awesome," something is...if you've got a Jackass like this clown working for the project...it's a dead loss.
What a stable and down to earth person. I can't wait to put their code on my cell tower and GPS tracked device with my sensitive pictures.
As a father with an Autistic 6 year old son, I approve of this message. As Tyrion Lannister said (or close to what he said), let your weaknesses be your shield. Project it, shout It, make your weakness your fortress for those who whish to hurt you will exploit it without regard, therefor hiding it will only leave you vulnerable. Autism is no excuse for anything, but merely a platform for empathy and understanding. Actions are judged by their results, period.
What does it mean to project and shout your weakness? And why is hiding it from the public a bad idea? I would assume that telling people what's wrong with you is like handing gasoline to an angry mob with torches.
@@flameshana9 To explain: if you acknowledge your weakness and don't hide it, they can't use it against you. They will have no ammo to use. It's kind of a different route of overcoming your weaknesses.
No, that's a weak, feminine, manipulative, j**ish tactic and it's disgusting.
"Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." is what he said in the show, IDK if its different in the books
Somebody mentioned this video in Tom Spark's channel. And the owner of that channel (I assume his name is Tom Spark?) said this: "His take is pretty bad imo. Leaked dms and made fun of his autism".
Update: The dev who was freaking out in this vid will not only be stepping down as the lead GrapheneOS dev, but also as a foundation director. He will have no involvement in the project going forward after transferring his work.
Great news, thanks.
Regardless if anyone has an illness, condition, or whatever, they have to act respectful, civilized, and professional. What he did was disgraceful.
@@PhilipMarcYTI think lots of people lie about being ill so they can be abusive.
This is very unfortunate! It's regrettable that someone from the open-source community appears not to value or handle feedback. My empathy goes out to his teammates and collaborators.
I want to send you some encouragement with this comment. Keep doing what you are doing and don't ever be mislead into thinking its not make any difference. I am a new subscriber and really enjoying your content. I enjoyed this video and am looking forward to more. Also like the cats. :)
Literally the only goddamn reason I even knew such an OS even existed was because of you. So no, you were not an 'attacker' of the GrapheneOS project, to me and probably a few others, you were a 'messenger' of the existence of such an OS.
EXACTLY. But the unhinged tend to attack their own benefactors.
My experience as well. Louis was driving this for me. I don’t blindly follow anyone but I certainly give Louis the benefit of the doubt because after 10 plus years he’s never lead me astray.
To be fair, GrapheneOS started going mainstream because of Edward Snowden promoting it. But that brought people who have decided to attack the project and its creator also just because of Edward Snowden. The lead dev is now going into a paranoia tailspin unfortunately where even honest good faith criticism of his behavior from genuine supporters of GrapheneOS is just seen as more attacks from people who want to sabotage the project and the concept of a privacy-based smartphone OS.
Hi Louis! I'm a senior moderator on XDA Developers and I'm not surprised that a ROM dev lashes out like that. There's always some drama involved everywhere but since IM programs like Telegram have become their main distribution channel, it's really been going downhill. We deal with a lot of this TG-drama nowadays, it's become a major bullying platform. Thank you for bringing this content that may shed some light on the increasing polarisation, even in the world of development. - Timmy
but why did everyone abandon XDA?
@@juanwick730 XDA is still the largest home to the Android development community, taking the large all-consuming corporations out of the equation. In a world of Reddit, I'd say we're not doing so bad as an over 2 decades old classic forum. And despite everyone now also using the more direct flashy communication platforms, XDA remains the more professional base that provides structural oversight of all the projects everywhere.
@@TimmyM But in reality I was forced to use telegram for my last two devices to find any updated custom roms. Almost as disgusting as being forced to use Discord to find game mods now.
I’m surprised that Louis didn’t bother to put in the time or research before leaving people like me out of pocket. It’s easy for someone with millions of subs to recommend something but then months later to take back what he said and says he no longer trusts it, meanwhile I’m several hundred out of pocket.
@@stayjuice3724 I'm sure he had the best intentions and didn't really take anything back. It seems he responded based on some conversation in a certain moment, there could've been a language barrier or even some misunderstanding that got out of control. I don't know Louis but it looks like he's pretty occupied with his business and is under a certain amount of pressure to release content. That and his passion for such topics may have caused rushing the discussion out there, which may not have been the best way to go forward. Again, I only saw what I saw in the video and I could relate to the underlying issue: people need to get along a bit more or hate will be all what's left... Are you the dev he was talking about?
Honestly the key to a drama free life is to identify and get away from the toxic people. The 80/20 rule applies to drama, 20% of the people are responsible for 80% of the drama…wait scratch that, it’s more like 10% of the people are responsible for 95% of the drama.
I absolutely support you and your handling of this situation...
As you said, there are lots of people in tech who have absolutely no social skills. Unfortunately for some of them their lack of social skills is a major insecurity and they compensate for it with a giant ego. Pair that with actually delivering some manner of successful project or making lots of money and they can become intolerable.
Edit: Don't try to get the last word with people like this. Nobody wins.
Sooooo accurate.
That guy in office space really was needed after all. ruclips.net/video/m4OvQIGDg4I/видео.html
Not just anti social, but I believe that programmers ACTUALLY think they can program people too. They get used to having machines do what they want, they almost develop a God complex. I had s friend that was cool when I met him some time ago, but as time went on, he started talking down at me more and morw.
he doesnt have an ego. he just asked him to remove 1 comment and rossman freaked out, and leaked all his dms, and made fun of his autism at the same time
@Tom Spark's Reviews "asked him" lol man. Yeah that's all he did.
Daniel has stepped down as Foundation director and lead developer. He is confident the project will be in good hands with the rest of the development team 👍🏼
Hopefully he goes directly to the adult education center and gets to work on his issues.
Just saw this. He has taken no responsibility and has chosen to take the victim route.
@@fyfoh As another on the spectrum speaking here, what a coward.
@@fyfoh I feel like his interaction with Louis was the result of a lot of stress and trauma from what has been happening to him. He isn't in the best state of mind. Thus, I think his statement when stepping down sort of shows that, that is likely the case. He probably didn't apologize or take any responsibility simply because he is currently not in the proper state of mind to be able to do so.
@@kuroodo_ That's the kind of excuse that lets people like him get away with being a manipulative asshole.
This was coercion, if not straight up black mail. Good on ya for standing up to them.
As someone who was LITERALLY just about to switch to Graphene due to a big step in my career...I honestly don't think I could support this project any more than you can, and for many of the same reasons. This behavior, this pattern, is extremely troubling and as unfortunate as it may be, we'll have to begin the hunt for a suitable alternative. Though now I see he may have stepped down...or "asked" to step down, so perhaps not. Yay!
Lineage OS is a good solution until napoleons stop being total asses
4 months later, but there is Lineage OS, Calyx OS, Divest OS (A fork of Lineage), and e/os,, so many! Hope you found whatever worked for u
He needs to stfu and get a PR guy to do all the talking.
@@daveyhodge agreed, what an idiot. Hes killing his own project.
So did you install it?
I really hope that Graphene gets forked and lead by someone more sane.
*Update:* The cat is out of the bag, confirmed in the Matrix server, you can keep using Graphene now.
thats actually a really good idea, hopefully theres someone capable and willing to do so
Honestly I hope it dies as an example. I support my devs but some devs lately have begun to act kinda over-entitled.
@@revlouch some devs have insane egos. It's the whole "creator complex" where they create something that has a hint of popularity and now think they have absolute dominion over it
Nah. It doesn't take completely sane persons to create a project so good in protecting privacy, and being overall safety. It needs just the amount of paranoia. He's jus not coping well with this paranoia of his, outside of his project life.
@@pgruszewski Dam that makes to much sense. And really if there is any truth in the swat happening to the dude no matter ho did it. I mean can you really blame someone for not coping well. Rossman is actually quite nice in his video response too. I hope it helps.
But really I barely thing anyone truly can be called a complete sane person no matter what stage in there life they are in. It is like common sense. :c It is rare to find people that seems to have it.
Everyone should notice lacking this things at times. Your lying to yourself if you don't.
I was in the same room as Louis once and HE STOLE SOME OF MY OXYGEN. Yes, some people call this breathing, but Louis was clearly bullying my air.
Keep doing what you do Louis! We got your back.
This is a pretty good analogy. The next step is to accuse Louis of trying to suffocate you. It's too bad about the Graphene dev being so self-centered and self-indulgent that he can't understand that to apologize for bad behavior is part of being a human.
I think "having his back" is the kind of thinking that is at the heart of this, and part of how this situation got to where it is.
"I like Louis so I'll ignore xyz" - No.
"GrapheneOS is great so I'll defend xyz behaviour" - No.
Don't have people's back. Support their good behaviour, and call out their poor behaviour.
@@vorpled I see your point, but Daniel being consistently insane is the issue here, not me believing in Louis because he has a history of being even-handed.
Looks like Daniel has taken the right action to step down and focus on his mental health. It would be such a shame for this project to fall over because of that. Been planning my pathway from Apple to an android running this OS but this has me re-evaluate this path now.
Something tells me his decision did not come from his own initiative.
And what path are you on now? I'm looking for some guidance on which to choose.
There also Calyx OS
My thoughts exactly as I watched your video, knowing how amazingly supportive your reviews of this OS were. So sad!
As someone who is on the spectrum it is sad to see someone using it as an excuse to play victim and bully others like he has. I have fought really hard to get where I am despite the schools I went to fighting me and my family tooth and nail to me committed simply because I was different and didn't act like everyone else and they didn't know what else to do. Thankfully my parents found an excellent pediatric neurologist to help diagnose and help me understand and get deal with my issues. It's still a struggle even to this day.
I completely get what you're saying. If you would like to talk about it, i'm all ears and enjoy talking to others. What I find interesting is I can't tell you how many people iv'e come across who mention they are on the spectrum when first talking to them. Are they identifying with said condition? Speaking of being on the spectrum, i've had friends that were on it and they were just different. Everyone is different. Are doctors misdiagnosing some people with a label who fall outside of what society deems 'normal' in an attempt to ostracize them for an ulterior motive or what is going on here? If I said i'm also autistic, would I be falling into the trap myself? Someone help me understand please.
As another autistic person, I agree.
Autism is not an excuse for being an asshole.
I was planning on getting a Pixel device in the future JUST to run Graphene on it… I think I might run Calyx instead.
@@bluecar5556 I generally don't tell anyone I am autistic and most would have no idea I am as with taking the correct medication along with having 20+ years learning how to deal with it. However I don't like going out in public by myself without someone who knows me just in case I have one of my meltdowns which generally includes me screaming a bunch of obscenities and storming out of the building and sitting down on the ground next to the car I came in and balling my eyes out. It doesn't happen often but I still don't like going out without someone to help me just in case.
Many years ago no one really knew or understood autism and so many people were misdiagnosed and some sent to psych wards and heavily medicated. Thankfully more and more people are understanding Autism and people can be properly diagnosed and given the proper medication so we can live more productive lives. My junior high school had me go to a psychiatrist and he told my parents what to do to correct my behavior which were all the wrong things to do as I wasn't doing the stuff on purpose as it was all neurological.
@@bluecar5556 Getting a diagnosis as an adult is a complex issue than for children as most adults are seen as functioning members of society even if they've experienced many issues throughout life and they have less to no priority when it comes to a proper diagnosis. If you're on the spectrum but not a extreme case, in my country, I've had Drs tell me they can give me a diagnosis if I ask and point me towards online tests because a proper psychiatric evaluation is thousands of dollars. I have PTSD and panic disorder which results in sometimes similar, sometimes not, symptoms to certain levels of autism and I got along quite well with my roommates who did have extreme cases of autism due to a shared understanding of certain experiences. It is entirely possible people are simply asking their doctors for a diagnosis as taking any online test and intentionally answering in a way to be deemed on the spectrum is not impossible. Long term there should be more involved for mental health services but globally we simply don't have the resources to support the populations needs appropriately and people have capacity to lie.
@@bluecar5556 there are no creators out there that could be considered normal, that come with the job, as you say it a spectrum, and eveen the one say the normal, are just just very high on the + or - side of the spectrum, or just in the middle, where ever that is, and as for Are doctors diagnosing some people with a label who fall outside of what society deems 'normal' is a spectrum,
Years ago I was a moderator on a forum. There was a guy who was active there who'd frequently act like an idiot and a jerk to others. When confronted with it he would always claim autism made him do it. I finally had to confront him and tell him that I have two autistic kids who have issues socializing but act nothing like he did. After that I started warning him like an other user and he eventually started to act like less of an idiot. Autism is not an excuse to act like a jerk, nor is it a reason that anyone would. I'm sorry your time with Graphene OS ended like this
It is an excuse (fair one at that), and it is ground to be more tolerant. but as any excuses go they have limited validity (if any).
@@raizan5946 I knew an autistic person from birth who was more than just a little. I dont want to give to much information, so ill just get to the point without the story. That person had a good soul, but was wreaked by two things: Not getting the exact specific training they needed, and being *allowed* to be rude like that because of their condition.
Giving attention is no solution at all. They need to be subject to *education* that specifically fills in the gaps of their weakness and allows no abuse of condition for attention. That is *the* solution. Someone who uses their condition to get what they want is the marker of someone who was not given the help they needed when they were young, and compensation was given in the form of attention which did absolutely nothing.
Eventually, reality caught up to this person, and they did grow. But they grew the way a tree that is already half grown does: Conforming to their previous shape. Theyre a wonderful person but you can *see* they are trapped by their past. You cant mess up on this. You get no second chances. You gotta help the tree grow in a way that allows them to be happy right from the get go. Theyre ok, fyi. Just frustrated by their past. My tenses are random to obscure information.
I know a guy who became way more annoying once diagnosed as an Aspie. Before the diagnosis, he had no trouble with humor. Now, "please don't make these references, I have Aspergers and don't understand them."
The problem isn't that it's an excuse, but that it becomes an excuse to not even try.
Autism isn't the only excuse. Some coworkers are gen X like me, and a zoomer coworker posts a meme. For zoomer humor, this was pretty obvious. Nope, "I'm out of touch with meme culture, I don't get it." FFS, knowyourmeme explains all this stuff in exruciating detail.
@@Elemblue2 I don't really mean to be too simplistic and disregard whatever fair point your reply has, because I know it has merit in some ways. But autism is a catch all term for a myriad of conditions that aren't all the same and if they are not the same they can't be handled the same (and even when you talk about the same type of autism, the persons are not the same and the degrees of the condition).
Go tell a person with type 1 of diabetes to handle their diet better and eat socially at the bbq without insulin use, the depressed patient to not be sad, the guy with renal or liver failure to not be a wuss with alcohol and the girl with heart failure to not get tired while rock climbing. The conditions are not excuses, but hurdles which require special effort to overcome or can't be overcame at all, so tolerance is a fair thing to give when the guy refuses to eat in the bbq, the depressed guy to take meds and do what it cans, not drink when you no longer can't detoxify your body without dialysis and not overdo exercise respectively. Neuropsychiatric and mental conditions are not different from strictly biological ones but the onlookers have a harder time giving them the same respect.
There is no a clear cut solution, but tolerating doesn't mean you have to put up with the burden if you don't want to. Good luck.
@@dispatch-indirect9206 why would you expect anyone to Google other people's jokes? If they don't care and the joke is bad then let it go... What the hell... Part of someone having talent telling jokes and with comedy is knowing the audience they are talking to.
I'm not excusing anyone that refuses to try, but there is a difference about refusing to try when you have to do it and refusing to try about pointless things. Just so you have some perspective about the Asperger's dude position, he has been overworking himself to fit (without a real need to do so) while "normal" people just are themselves. Honestly, good for him that he no longer cares about faking catching other people's humor.
I appreciate Louis putting the chats out there, and I choose to trust him that they're genuine. They better be.
From what I see on screen, however, I disagree with some of his reactions and interpretations, like i tend to do when people are talking.
Taking a glance at their github page and seeing that there's more than one dude working on it (figures), I also choose to trust them to check, quietly or not, new code and stuff before pushing the update. Or at least looking through it.
I do understand Louis's reaction and if I were him i'd probably do the same, considering the apparent personal animosity here and that his stakes are way higher.
I'm still interested in the project and ill look into getting it onto my devices.
I found the reaction to the conversation (from Rossmann) didn't quite add up. It was pretty apparent to me that McCay was being bullied himself... and was telling Rossmann "Yo you're supporting the guy bullying me"... but Rossmann somehow turned it around and insinuated that McCay was the aggressor...
That was... manipulative... was it not?
I don't thnk Louis is dumb at all... thats what concerns me. It was obviously just someone being direct... no need to call them a bully and discredit the entire project that humanity is kind of relying on for last hope of privacy...
Is someone working for intelligence agencies? Might explain some behaviors from Rossmann if so...
@@austinzobel4613Except he was out of line.
@@lymphomasurvive Who, and how so?
@austinzobel4613 Rossman's comment on the video didn't warrant the massive walls of text, sent by McKay, that were in parts aggressive, condescending, and unnecessary.
@@lymphomasurvive Oh well I'm autistic myself and it just feels like my communication can get very lengthy and extensive. I come across as a jerk but I'm just addressing facts or points. I recognized instantly that it wasn't right to call McKay a bully. If nothing else happened, then I still don't feel it was appropriate to do that TO MCKAY from ROSSMAN
he said being autistic isnt an excuse to bully... but what if he was just being direct? ..and he wasn't bullying just communicating something very important?
Talking about "autism" isnt an excuse... its context to better understand the intent behind the communication...
This is why I do not read or respond back to my own posts anymore sometimes someone will troll and take me out of context. The reason I follow this channel is you do the right thing the guy for some reason lost it for one comment.
This is unfortunate but yet informative 😂
I'll say it again, I was going to put this on my next phone and had been telling people about it but if this is the level of stability we can expect then I don't trust the person not to go off the deep end and do something crazy to everyone.
Oh yeah. I even went the Google Pixel route when upgrading my phone just to put GrapheneOS in it since waching the Louis video on it, but I'm now doubting the sanity of this guy and if I can trust my personal device with his product.
I’m going to keep an eye on development until I get the Pixel 8… He may be the lead developer but he isn’t the only developer and I’d hope the rest of team would go some way in preventing/notifying users of malicious updates. We’ll see i guess!
It is the best option out there that does not require extra work to get the custom ROM to a similar state.
As an update, the developer in question is stepping down from the project.
@@josh8106 That was quick!
I've had experience with this guy. We got into a technical discussion on the project's Reddit, which was "energetic" and in the style of LKML (before Linus promised to be nice). That's the way I communicate too. I have exactly 0 problem with it. That's the way great engineers hash out difficult problems on great projects and it is absolutely productive. However, the one rule is - it is never personal, you are discussing the technical problem and its solution, not the other person (unless they've repeatedly sent you broken patches). Unable to support his points with a technical argument (he made some unsupportable maximalist claims like "Linux is horribly insecure" -- this despite Graphene actually running on a Linux kernel -- and some other braindead horsesh-t, which was obvious to me as a former kernel dev and I called out), Micay accused me of being part of some shadowy cabal harassing him over a period of years. The issue I was posting about was the reason I felt GrapheneOS was not suitable for an enthusiast, the lead dev made clear this wasn't going to change, *and* appeared unhinged, so I dropped it and never bothered with it again. More than a year after this, I received a notification that I was banned from the GrapheneOS reddit for 'personal attacks'. I didn't even remember what it was at this point, I had to remind myself what it was and read the discussion thread. 'Lo and behold, Micay had deleted his posts where he personally abused me instead of arguing the technical point. Thinking it was a volunteer mod (no project lead would have time to mod his own reddit), I wrote back saying that although I didn't particularly care since I had no plans to use GrapheneOS or its subreddit, there were no personal attacks in that thread from my end, only Micay's and that he had doctored the thread. I got blocked and realised the mod was actually Micay himself. Micay is unhinged enough that he went through 1yr+ of threads to ban anyone who disagreed with him on anything, apparently, *and* doctored the threads to remove anything incriminating him. This is not the standard 'open source dev is too frank and forthright for the tastes of wider society' thing, which is good, productive and absolutely OK with me, f- societal norms if they get in the way of getting work done. The man is unhinged. I have all the receipts.
Quick correction: the original discussion was, in fact, from 3 years ago, so Micay had gone through at least 3 years' worth of threads on Reddit to ban anyone who has ever disagreed with him. In my case, he banned me twice.
@@paulie-g This is informative, and unfortunate
certified reddit moment
Spoken like a shadowy cabal member.
please add paragraphs to your style of communication in the future.
After your videos I was so close to installing this OS on my phone that I was going to purchase for this. But after seeing tia video, I will never use GrapheneOS while such unstable people are running the project. Thanks for bringing it up.
Been watching you for years you make great content! But i agree with you 100%. Ita a shame i had been looking for a new os for my phone for a while now and i would of i installed it on your recommendation but not now because i cant trust someone tbat comes off as unprofessional and childish with phone. Thanks for saving me some time and grief.
Ray of hope: Open source projects often hit snags with ego driven devs. Please understand Graphene as a concept rocks. If this guy makes a single move to mess this up in a way that affects end users, people like me will help fund a fork to being the project back better than ever. Usually the dev fights back and tries to dox and DMCA people for a bit. Service may be interrupted. But I would bet someone is going to fork Graphene now just in case. And Graphene was already a fork of an older OS. The project can live on without any one guy.
(In open source, a fork is when you make a copy of the code. You start working independently on your copy. So no matter what happens to the old code, you have a backup. This also means you can do new development without worrying about the old code messing things up, and vice versa. Maybe they will call the fork GrXpheneOS or something to set it apart. But it will live on. If it hits the fan, just keep your ears on and watch for the successor to start up.)
This comment gives me hope. Id be glad to donate to a fork being developed. Privacy on mobile is one of the trickiest and most elusive scenarios in all of tech. I wouldn't even mind if a graphene like OS charged for the OS as long as it was fully open source code. Pretty bummed right now. Thanks for your comments.
Even the kid from the movie FaceOff went on to lead a Fortune 500 company.
@@sprtwlf9314 Don't be bummed. Think of it more as a speed bump thana closure. I can guarantee that someone is workingbon an alternative. KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!!
It really does make you appreciate iOS & Android Open Source Platform are run by sane people.
@@rricci thank you. Appreciate your positivity and insight. Realistically what would a timeline look like if someone were to fork graphene and start a new project that was usable? A couple months or are we talking a year or two? I'm sure there's a million and one factors. I'll be supporting it and my guess is many many people will be too. Cheers.
I saw the Techlore video long ago and I was curious to know what has been your own experience since you were so publicly defending the OS.
Thank you for bringing it up in a responsible way.
This was even more informative and unfortunate.
That’s the thing though, a crazy paranoid dude is exactly the type of guy I want to run a privacy software.
I am autistic and one rule I was always taught is to NEVER use it as a crutch.
On a second note, I can understand to a very small degree why someone might lash out like that. The desire to not let stuff go and retaliate like that and blow everything out of proportion is intense for some of us on the spectrum and it takes a ton of effort to learn to let things go. When you conquer that demon you come out a far greater person though.
what's worse is using it as a sword.
So true. "But it's not RIGHT!" is a feeling that's so very hard to overcome. Unfortunately, the whole world is not right, and this one detail I'm currently hyper-focused on is just one of a myriad of similar details. Learning/training to just let things slide even though they're not right is HARD for some of us, to the point that some people on the spectrum are barely able to interact with the world at all. Those who master the art of deliberately overlooking the little wrongs in the world, though - by whatever amount of effort required - can concentrate their energy on more productive things, and lead a fulfilled life.
I'm autistic as well and I agree 100%. The victimhood mindset is incredibly limiting and my life has improved more than I was ever able to imagine once I finally got past it.
A victim hood mentality is super toxic in general. No matter what applied to. A little bit of mental effort to actively focus on the positive little things in live opposed to all the bad and uncomfortable things can have such a big positive impact on one's live and happiness.
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 While that is very true, it may be the hardest thing to actually do. To many autistic people it's not "a little bit" but rather "a tremendous amount" of effort. Most standard issue humans can't even imagine how draining it is for some people to overlook some silly little thing that's not "right", as obviously the entire world is just wrong about leaving this unfixed. Also, the entire world won't be able to understand what they're obsessing about, but that makes it even worse and is a major driver of that victim complex.
I hate how so many great project's leaders turn out to be such awful people
Then maybe they aren't that awful at all
@@lazypig93 Read what was written. It is pure defamation over and over again. Graphene is open to being derailed by judgments for defamation because of this crazy dev. If this dev is the only main developer on graphene, then the OS is dead. If there are others, they need to fork the code and separate from this crazy person.
@@_PatrickO Welcome to the world of Open Source, where there are no PR or monetary incentives. People who are willing to work for free or for low amounts of money are often driven by passion. However, this passion sometimes leads to a higher level of ego or a sense of entitlement. It's unfortunate that the open source community is often plagued with drama.
It's ironic that often times, the people who change the world are often the biggest assholes, because reality as it was annoys them the most, and they're more likely to have enough hubris to think they can change it.
@@Egan466 Most open source is not this way. That is a fantasy excuse mentally ill people are inventing to justify disgusting behavior. I work on open source stuff every day.
This is informative, and unfortunate.
You are totally right!
Louis, I guess the only thing you could do is to edit the comment on Techlore to: ‘This is informative and unfortunate, if true.’ Other than that I think your doing the best you can and we thank you for it! Carry On Good Sir!
Daniel has stepped down as developer and grapheneOS foundation director as of may 26. Would love to see a follow up video as to how you feel about this
"If I spend all my time doing the right thing, I'd never have time to dev"
"If you have an issue with how autistic people communicate"
I have autism.
I am a solo developer.
I can still find time to do my passion whilst also finding time to do the right thing. I can communicate effectively without resorting to emotional rants. Yes, there are many things this world arbitrarily hates about people with autism...but emotionally-driven rants are not one of them. I understand wanting to be heard but this isn't the way to do it.
I'm really just over how entitled solo developers can be. If you can't be kind *and* indulge in your passion...then why are you even doing it.
EDIT: I think it's important to mention that last part was very emotionally driven as I have some very...personal experiences with entitled people who also happen to be solo devs. I do not believe all solo devs are toxic like this.
I also have autism. That is not how an autistic person communicates. That's how an egotistical and paranoid maniac who grew up too pampered by their parents communicates.
The Wii community has people like this in it too. It's a plague.
_If you can't be kind and indulge in your passion...then why are you even doing it._
Kindness has a bad failure mode. Kindness is something you naturally are when you're happy, when you're on an up cycle. It falls apart when you're on a down cycle, because there's no sense of obligation to it, so it easily gets replaced with negative emotions.
People need to develop gratitude and respect for others, which means do the work to actually figure out why you're grateful and why you respect others. But when you have that deeper sense of those people, it will ensure your behavior can be at least courteous to them even during adverse situations.
@@dispatch-indirect9206 except people will think that gratitude is just debt payment,
weird people liberals.
@@runed0s86 yeah, aren't some of the wiimiifi/reconnect 24 devs a little coo-coo for coca puffs?
@@runed0s86 I don't think that's a result being pampered. I think that's a result of an undiagnosed mental illness.
wow 😮 That's a great video. We need to be careful with those proyects about "second choices" and "terms of privacy", coz the mayor oof the time we don't know what kind of people are involved in those projects (mental health at all) 😅
Yes, I learned something with this video. Thank you. You have a new subscriber. (I'm sorry for my english level)
Evenly presented and thoughtful. Calmly explaining the truth like this always cuts through bs like this like a hot knife through butter. Increasing your volume or outrage doesn't make your point more valid.
You are absolutely right about experience dealing with people leveraging a victimhood complex. Once you see it, it can't be unseen and the pattern is incredibly obvious. Thanks for putting this explainer out. I feel bad for you, based on how much mental energy this stuff inevitably takes. Use restraint, stay in the right, don't provide food for drama.
There are some instances I dont fully agree with Louis, but what I always seem to find is that he is very fair when he argues. This at least makes it so that I can trust that he means no harm or have no ill intentions. I also like the transparency and openness from him. Keep it up, and thanks for sharing this with us.
I think that is what so many of us have in common on following him, to be honest.
Louis is the posterboy of someone you may or not agree with all his points (or any of them) and still, genuinely respect the logic that led him to differ from your own thoughts.
Man, I was about to start looking into switching over to Graphene after hearing you speak so positively about it for so long... its a shame that this is the latest development. Thanks for the update, Louis.
Have you found any suitable alternatives yet?
thanks for everything you do louis.
As I said in the comments of the original video, The only thing these kinds of "I'm a victim, so therefore its okay" individuals will see as a clue that they need to change is when they see their support for their project start to dip and lose interest. No amount of talking to them/confronting them will show them they need to change, they've already surrounded themselves with either people who support that behavior or their environment has already convinced them.
I agree with Louis with this. It sucks, but thats the only thing they'll understand unfortunately.
This is especially true in the age of social media. While social media can cast a wide net which can be good it can also help to develop a following that just doesn't care about the problems. In a way this isn't a direct problem with a project. If the developers just adapt and put with it work still gets done but it becomes extremely toxic and uninviting especially to newcomers. Unfortunately though some projects just assume if they have a code of conduct everything will be just fine. No way that could back fire on itself no. Communities need be proactive and supportive. Inclusivity is an act not a statement.
I feel for the guy as far as the swatting goes. Nobody deserves that regardless of how much of a jerk they are online, but this was a dumb bridge to burn. People are allowed to highlight your communication online and there was nothing wrong with Louis' comment on that video. Him stepping down from the project and staying off social media was the right move. I hope he gets the help he needs.
He needs Vengeance! @Animalhouse8849 are you ready to commit?
this kind of confrontational victim behaviour with the excuse of autism is truly despicable.
he stepped down from the project?
i think you have responded in a very respectful and calm headed manner, it's easy to be frustrated when dealing with someone that deflects any criticism under the guise of attacking a vulnerable person and hiding behind victimhood.. I genuinely hope this dev would seek help, for his sake.
I would have never thought my man was in the spectrum and now i respect those huge gatherings he goes to even more
This is informative and unfortunate.
_"If you have a problem with people with autism communicating differently, that's your problem."_
I have autism. No it absolutely is not in the slightest. That's not how this works, and you're making yourself, and everybody with autism look bad.
This man is singlehandedly responsible for his own peril, and autism has nothing to do with it. Good manners, compassion, temperance... or lack thereof, however, *does.*
I don't care what situation you're in, what kind of troubles you're going through or what problems you face, hiding behind a diagnosis is wrong and abusive to every single person who is actually trying to improve their life, DESPITE their diagnosis.
For the longest time, my life wasn't great. I had a lot of trouble communicating properly with people all the way up until i was 19 or 20. Highschool was quite literally traumatic.
But i don't hide behind that.
I don't let that define me, because that DOESN'T define me.
If you have autism, and you have a problem with people having a problem with you not being able to communicate properly, THAT is a you problem.
Because if you cannot communicate your shortcomings to people, if you cannot make people positively empathize with your situation and grant you their patience to have you catch up to them, that's on you.
We cannot change who we are, how we act, how we think.
But we can change who others think we are, how others react, how others think.
Letting your disabilities or divergence define you is a choice. Do not hold others accountable for that. They do not deserve that, and neither do you.
Treat yourself by treating others with the compassion you expect in return. You're doing yourself a disservice by blaming your shortcomings on others.
No, it's the other way around - we can't change how _others_ think we are, how _others_ react or think, but we can change how _we_ are, act, and think. I am only responsible for myself and my behavior, no one else's, just as you are only responsible for yourself and your behavior.
I suspect I have autism too (it wasn't cool to diagnose when I was young, and I'm way too old to care now)... And for me, the struggle with communication isn't just saying inappropriate stuff and being a dick. It's the opposite. It's the time I lose trying to make sure I'm NOT saying inappropriate stuff or making myself sound like a dick. For example, I've restarted this comment at least twice so far, and spent about 10 minutes on it when it's likely going to take 30-40 seconds to read at most.
@@tin2001 I have also done this myself many times in the past, I even re-wrote this comment as well!
So very well said! Nail on the head and all that.
@@tin2001 That's how I grew up, took so long for me to formulate what I wanted to say, how I would say it that people thought I was slow. I wanted to say it right the first time without being corrected even though I was really young, young enough mistakes are a given. It may have taken 20+ years but I'm better at it. Took a lot of practice. Still keep quiet most of the time as to gauge how people will take what I say. Once comfortable I can usually hang in a conversation some but that need to make it fit is still there.
Love the cat and the sofa tear :)
What have you switched to! Would love to see a video on your new setup!
Autism is not an excuse to treat people poorly.
He needs to learn how to communicate with people
Autism literally means you are socially impaired. It's probably the only excuse if you can't communicate properly. Go do research on it.
I'm autistic. The crap in recent years from the social justice community has hurt autism treatment so much. There are large communities of people including therapists who now believe all trauma is permanent, and any attempt to "fix" a suffering person is oppressive. Like literally, telling an autistic person that they must learn to look people in the eyes sometimes is hate speech.
This is one of those "grain of truth" things that needs balance. On the one hand, people often misinterpret autistic people as being aggressive or mean when the autistic person is literally just staring at their shoes and mumbling having a migraine from social anxiety. That sucks. But autistic people also don't get a get out of jail free card when they're dicks. You have to find a balance.
This developer doesn't seem to be acting very autistic. He does seem to be acting like a total dick.
I don't think people like this really have Aspergers. I think they've got something more like Borderline Personality Disorder or Malignant Narcissism. Those are much more serious than Aspergers. Of course another way of looking at it is they're just terrible people and all these labels don't really capture the difference between being a bit awkward and being terrible because they're based on the idea that there are no bad people, only ill people. Which just isn't true. We've all met people who are a bit Aspie but decent and people who show signs of much darker personality traits but would probably score low on the Aspie spectrum.
Actually, telling an autistic person like me where to look in a conversation is horrible. People should understand that people have different needs and different social queues. Forcing someone to mask their autism is hate speech yeah.
@@trenixjetix This ^^
Thank you for bringing this to the main channel! It's important people see the gaslighting people will do. Way to get ahead of him because I'm sure he had every intention of painting you out in a bad light because he's too dim to understand where he's gone wrong.
Also gotta add the reciepts you posted in Google Drive (of all places 😅) was a nice touch. IMO, this dude seems like a liability and a danger to others.
This guy clearly has issues ot going through some personal stuff. Doesn't excuse his behaviour. You handled that like a gentleman.
My brother in Christ, 5 words in a comment section under some RUclips video is NOT aiding in abuse and swatting.
Some people really shouldn't have direct customer contact.
This is definitely informative, and so very very unfortunate.
Micay certainly sounds like he's in need of some help, or a relaxing break somewhere calm and quiet at the very least -- but, that being said, considering his blind and uncontrolled adversarial aggression, I 1,000,000% would not trust anything he codes on my phone or computer at ANY time or for ANY reason. Hard no on that.
People in that kind of paranoid and anger-focused mindset, no matter the reason for it, are often prone to do petty, illogical, and destructive things, regardless of who it may hurt -- even themselves. I can easily see him feeling "justified" at adding code (or trying to add it -- I imagine he's not the only one who handles the code) to target specific users, such as yourself, either to spy on them to get "evidence" or to limit and negatively affect their use of his products. Even if the risk is small, it's just not worth it.
Give him some time and maybe he'll level out and realize the hole he's dug and start working to make amends -- sometimes a bridge of trust CAN be rebuilt, with enough work.... but don't hold your breath waiting for that either.
This is information and unfortunate, is going to be my fav meme format this year. XD
Time? This problem have like 7 years now.....
@@MrZakuRetro That's kinda the whole point of the next line, "don't hold your breath waiting for that either." Some people are able to recognize and confront their inner demons in weeks or months... some require years... some need decades... and some spend almost every year of their entire life living with them, often burning every bridge they cross. It's really great when people can recover from that, turn their life around, and make amends to the people they've hurt or offended... just don't hold your breath waiting for it, that's all.
Back when I had more mental difficulties, I'd introduce strange bugs which only affected the small subset of people I didn't like. There's no reason to specifically target a user when one can pop down a bit of spaghetti code that looks like what everyone else writes. My autism grants me _a lot_ of skill parsing confusing code.
I once wrote a javascript+PHP one-liner web page complete with BASE64 images for its animated menu, client-side generated sub-pages, and had a SWF loader. It was less than 2kb.
It broke so many conventions that firewalls got confounded and treated it like normal traffic. It allowed me to play games on firewalled computers... So, yeah, lol: don't trust this guy.
This is informative and unfortunate
Thank you for letting us know. This is informative and unfortunate ♥
Wow man. One of the best sagas of youtube commenting I've ever seen. As always Louis exits with the hat on, completely on the point. That guy Daniel is shooting himself on the foot, and because of whatever mental health condition he has, he is creating very negative image and bad press for his own project. As Louis says, what a waste of talent.
This is informative, and unfortunate.
It took 2 very mild responses to get from "I don't understand" to "You will suffer x consequences if you don't do what I say" by the person who claims to be especially sensitive to ongoing harassment. That certainly rings alarm bells for me.
People who constantly claim to be bullied are usually the biggest bullies.
I am only an occasional viewer, but every video I've seen in the last six months or so, you are supporting and promoting Graphene OS.
That you take your own promotion and it's associated responsibility seriously by helping those who are new to the software, only proves what a good customer and ally you are to the platform.
Thanks for sharing.. wowzers.. i was planning to swatch to GrapheneOS based on your earlier videos, but that behaviour.. wow... i guess i'll need ot search for another alternative.
This helps me make my OS decision. Thx.
I'm a person who goes by "manners above all else". Doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what your position or status is, the moment i sense hatered, belitteling or any of the sorts i'm instantly judging the person and their work.
I also believe in "separating the art from the artist" to a sensable degree, however i wouldn't trust my personal information to a person who thinks and acts like that either.
The personal information part is very important angle that I hadn't thought about.
@@AcidiFy574 Good at elocution and acting, not well mannered. fren
That would make you a delusional fool though. Only skill that can contribute to real work matters.
@@lazypig93 Wanted to keep the comment short but ofc skill matters as well and manners by themselves can't do much. However from personal experience as well as those close to me, if manners are lacking it's beyond painful and devastating in the long run even if you have the best person on the job, you will get used and hurt is you prioritise skill over manners.
Tl;dr: Manners 1st, skill very close second and ideally alongside, but am never prioritising skill over maners.
@@AcidiFy574 would you trust any politician or person of power who belittles/ doesn't give a crap about those they're deciding for to care or do their job properly and favourabli for all? I don't. Ofc manners by themselves don't accomplich much however skill by themselves is even worse imo.
Case in point what is happening with GraphineOS. Sure the company might claim whatever but how would i trust anything that comes out of a person who gaslights and victimises themselves?
How about a petition for Louis to change the name of the channel to 'man yells at cloud while shaking fist.'
...and petting cat.
I wonder if Louis petting his cat for an hour would be as popular as his other channel.
I would say this is informative, and unfortunate but it was more heartbreaking tbh.
This is why OS development need to have a real data security governance team, so that in no way can the data be compromised by insider threats...
I think this is a very resonable response, thanks for showing how to handle things in a mature way. I really appreciate how straight forward you lay things out.
Louis, you are absolutely right in not trusting the work of someone you have an adversarial relationship with. If a tech person wants to get back at you, they'll use the technology at hand. It's a valid concern.
A healthy FOSS ecosystem doesn't need any one contributor in the way society doesn't need any one human.
I just wanna say... I just love how your cats usually sit beside you when you're making a video. I found it hilarious, but... not surprising, because cats really do love intervening in all activities and being the center of attention. Cats are awesome. Also, regarding the rest of the video, you're not being a jerk. Just because someone is great at coding doesn't make them right every time or good at everything else. And using weaknesses as excuses also doesn't make a bad argument right.
My brother is on the spectrum and has similar issues to this. I've had to cut ties with him because of his abuse and his self entitlement for being able to abuse people. He has killed so many relationships because of the way he treats people and he never self reflects. Thanks for sharing this. The only way people like this are going to be held accountable is if their behavior is put on full display.
Being on the spectrum doesn't make you a *hole, it makes it even harder as life will have lessons for those people.
The mind is a complex thing, and mingling autism with being mean or nice does not help anyone.
People without it go both ways, so do people with.
I'm autistic and I'm so sorry to hear that you have had to cut a family member off because of this. I had to do the same thing for an autistic family member for similar reasons.
If anything it made me angrier --I'm autistic and I figured this out (I'll always be a bit crap at it but I'm also always on the lookout) so I *know* there is no excuse for continuing to treat people like crap because "I didn't think about it".
Some people just don't understand the need to work through it and, considering the loneliness they experience as a result, it's a surprise to me.
I wish you well in finding/creating/maintaining a loving supportive group of people around you.
@@schoo9256 Is it really on them and not the society around them that almost always pushed them to end up like that?
@Words I know society failed them and I feel pity for them, because in many ways society also failed me. I can't speak to general cases because i dont know everyones general case. I can only speak to the reality of being deeply emotionally involved with people who refuse to improve themselves, refuse to be kind to you, and refuse to learn healthy coping mechanisms for their own pain, even given every chance.
The oeople i am talking about are functional enough to have skilled jobs and businesses, bachelor degrees, connections in the community, and marriages and families. If they have that level of agency, they and society have equal responsibility for how they turn out, and they have shirked theirs. It's not only that they don't understand, it's that when faced with something that could make them change their ways, they fear change and they refuse to understand. It's absolutely heartbreaking because you can see their potential to become such wonderful people, and they refuse to because it opens painful old wounds.
I understand why they don't want to face that but as someone with ptsd myself I have faced mine and continue to face mine, because I want to be a better person. The more I face my wounds, the more I realise it is pointless to try and protect others from their own pain. They have to face it or they will never be free.
And the people who choose not to understand do so because they can't face it.
@@schoo9256 fit in or die alone? Why bother contributing to that society?
"open source developers don't have the best social skills"
why am I catching strays Louis
I was diagnosed with aspergers at a young age. I also know a few people with it. The one thing you should NEVER do is use it as an excuse. Sure, you have a tougher time in many areas. But most people with this problem can at minimum get up to a bare minimum level of functioning. Be a bit weird sure, but not horrible. I know one person that consistently uses autism as an excuse, and whenever they're doing that it's just the worst thing to interact with them. Especially when they pull the "you don't know what it's like" excuse on people. Yes I do know what it's like. It sucks, but you can live with it and compensate for most of it. And it is exceptionally worthwhile to do so. A diagnosis should be a starting point to improve as you now know more about your weaknesses and how to counter them. It may even let you get specific targeted help where needed. Just sitting there demanding the world change will just hurt you and everyone around you. What's easier to change, the whole world? Or yourself?
Thats true and I value your point on it. I'm not diagnosed but I noticed people misinterpret my communication pretty often. Got lost of energy to make mental points is all. I value being direct and off the cuff.
That being said, I don't think McCay was using anything as an excuse. He was a human being who was being bullied himSELF. McCay was essentially saying "Rossmann dont act like the good guy when you are supporting the guy bullying me."
Rossmann never even responded to this important point... dismissed it and even called McCay the bully, saying "Autism is not excuse to bully" ... when McCay never did that at all! It was pretty obvious Rossmann was playing an angle... McCay was straight and to the point. I value McCay's way of speaking way more... and I really dislike the effect Rossmann had on the best privacy-focused open-source project we HAVE out there.
He insinutated that vulernabilities would be placed against him... a baseless attack that grips the minds of anyone who relies on Rossmann for information.
That was just incorrect as heck, because it would be anti-thetical to the nature of the project... its open source... people would see it, and the trust in the project would be destroyed. Rossmann slings this around acting like it wasn't a social attack.
Just makes me wonder... are good guys like Rossmann the best to have in the pocket of intelligence agencies?
I do agree there could of been more tact in how he went about this.
Like asking for clarity, cant fix misconceptions or misinformation if you damage the existing report with your patrons.
Daniel Micay's stepping down as Graphene head dev. No word on whether it's his decision or the backlash finally triggered a purge.