Most probably for Resto Druid. I've been waiting for him to get good for M+ in all SL, and that never happened. Don't get me wrong, he was a stellar choice for raid, but that's about it. Especially in Season 1+2, if you wanted him to put more damage, you had to get all these offensive trinkets, add a lot of versatility to the stats, and even apply all conduits + souldbind that would make him kinda good in outputting damage. Your videos really helped me achieve a 2560 rio in season 2, biggest dungeon I timed was a +23. I'm really grateful for your content. Now I'm back in season 4 playing with a holy priest, because I don't think I'm going to be playing him in dragonflight. The question is, what are you going to play in Dragonflight?
I am painfully mediocre at video editing, so these type of videos take me ages to finish. If you enjoy this type of content please consider liking the video and subscribing for future content. Thank you! 🔥🔥🔥
Your videos are such high quality in terms of knowledge and information, editing doesn't even matter bro! Keep it up man, I value your opinions over any other creator.
Brilliant video - I love content like this. Tier lists that try to rank how powerful a class will be aren’t particularly useful, because it’s all subject to change, but tier lists like this that give an insight into how a class actually feels to play are great food for thought for those of us without access to the beta.
I totally agree with you, and it's usually the hardest type of video to find. I also really hope Blizzard will watch this video and see how taking away priest utility doesn't make much logical sense. I honestly feel like parts of the blue post MadSkillzz talks about basically says, "We gave X class this ability that's new for them but the same thing you've had so now we have to take away your ability and utility that you already had."
As someone who has been a caster healer for the longest time (holy priest) playing paladin in SL recently has. Been soooo refreshing, it’s fun, interactive, melee dps’ing, managing holy power, it’s a lot of fun…I don’t want that to turn into caster healer either
Well, I understand it is your opinion, but no. Hpaladin was a Range healer for Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, Cata, MoP, WoD and Legion. They were changed in 8.2 until today, so out of the 9 versions of the game, they have been a Melee healer for only 2, so no, at least historically they should not be Melee healer. Also, we are HEALERS, we should be healing 95% of the time, at least in raid scenario. Sure, you need a healer to do DPS in M+, but that should not be a definite factor to bring X healer over X healer. The reason why I think they are going in the right direction is because there are 3 types of players out there. We have Casual players who will only do LFR and Normal Raiding as well as M+ up until maybe 8, then semi hardcore players who will do Heroic and Mythic but slowly and M+ up until maybe 17 and then we have Hardcore players who will always try to be the first at everything and beat the hardest available difficulties super fast. Range Holy Paladin is aimed to please the first 2 types of players, and the Melee Holy Paladin one is aimed to please the last one. As easy as that.
Recent priest post just killed all my hype for DF. They are making most squishest class more squishy and now no kicks for them. I don't want to be liability to the group so I'm moving to resto sham.
MW and HPal both need the ranged healing playstyle because thats the way PvP works atm. Whether you want to talk about it or not, PvP is still an aspect of the game. I like the way the MW looks and I have 3 different talents I'm looking at in terms of M+, raid and PvP.
Exactly. The caster talents are more for pvp. Hpal can’t just tank two dps in melee. They aren’t there for pve besides for less optimal builds for raid fights that aren’t good for melee - like Fetid in Uldir.
After reading some of the comments, I have to conclude that some people would be well advised to look at the introduction before forming an opinion. This tier list is about how easy it was for him to heal disorganized pug groups in a +10 and contribute some damage. Does it matter under that premise that priests have a lack of defensives? Or that priests lost utility? Or that shamans have a lot of utility? Or that tier lists of other content creators (presumably about what they think which healer is the best in general) look different? No. Again, it's just about how easy it was for him in a disorganized pug group. Thanks for the content! Cant wait to play the new disc.
There is literally ZERO reason to worry about the people who want a ranged HPally, priests are a thing, I'm really bummed they're trying to do both. I like not using hard casts, it's part of what makes them fun, I'm always doing something, not just standing there.
This is 100% on point and I am glad someone is talking loud and clear about melee healers. Vivify cant be instant without any kind of limitation to it but talent like this just makes spec feel glitchy. What do you think if vivify was instant but had penance like effect just from melee? One where doesn't cleave unless it bounces of enemy just in melee range.
Thak you for beeing vocal about the preservation healers problems. I really hope blizz makes a talent which allows evokers to increase their range, it is sorely needes or the class will be dead...which would be sad because they look cool and play fun.
Vivify should be a double talent to choose from. Make instant but with a 6 sec cooldown Sort of like Holy Shock, your kicks reduce the cooldown by 1.5 seconds and Crits reset the cooldown. Or just keep vivify normal.
100% agree with what you say about paladins and monks being melee healers. Even in lore and theme, ranged hpal become too close to holy priests in my mind, it feels redundant
Hi there, thanks for the video and starting off with MW - I have played MW since WoD and I like how they have tried to incorporate more and more fistweaving over the years, with this new DF iteration being the best, hands down. On PTR I was just clearing HoS Solo with my MW, because the healing and dmg are so consistent and good, its mindboggling. Even done some HC with others and I think I might main a MW in healing M+ throughout DF if it stays this way. Its so, so enjoyable! :3
This video was supposed to be about what healers were most fun, and the Evoker is the most fun I have had healing in a decade. Yes, the 25 yard range is problematic, but it doesn't make it less "fun".
I absolutely love this video and I’m so happy to see so much monk love! Can’t wait to try evokers and I think the range thing differentiates them. I haven’t had a chance to try it out yet, but your ranged argument for them sounds like an argument of bringing a death knight tank because they’re slow as opposed to a monk who is fast - they’re different but that’s the beauty of different classes
I rolled my paladin in 2009. Back then, holy paladins were not melee healers. I hate melee healing, and I'd be happy to finally be able to heal from range again.
I rolled Paladin for the first time in 2007 and I say that them being melee healers is finally Holy Paladins being in line with what their class thematically should represent. They were created as Priests who train in knightly martial arts to be able to use their powers in the frontlines of battles, where Priests could not in Lore. Why even wear plate armor and have a shield, when standing far behind?
I’ve come around on the evoker 25 yard range. As a mistweaver main, we currently heal mainly in a 20-30 yard range. Rjw is 10 yards. Atotm is 20 yards. Essence font is 30 yards. I’m a raid setting the only thing at 40 yards I’d be using is renewing mist. Granted I haven’t had alpha/beta access yet but I feel like the range limitation won’t feel too different to mistweaver healing yard range.
I have been playing it a lot on Alpha/Beta. It really depends on how you play because it's actually a very versatile healer. Positional spells, shields, hots, ramps with echo etc....Right now, because heroic damage is pretty low, it's fairly easy to manage the range with rescue/hover/deep breath and not get yourself into trouble. It also is very obviously part of the class fantasy I think - it is supposed to be a very dynamic feeling healer where you are zipping around, positioning yourself.
I suppose I'm currently looking forward to trying out the resto shammy. Them trying to force the mêlée healers to hard cast spells is killing my excitement for either of them atm.
Blizzard specifically said in their blue post “we don’t want ranged to overpower the melee playstyle, we just want it to be viable” (aka playable but worse). They have also put all of their time into making ranged playstyle abilities. This means blizz has put all of their time into an intentionally sub optimal style of play which feels terrible for the spec overall.
I was a holy paladin main 2008 to beginning of CN. I am a raid healer at heart so I dropped it in a heartbeat after all that time of maining it....for resto druid and resto shaman. I will continue to go that route for DF. I am disappointed once again about holy paladin. IMO they made it waaay waaay too much fun in BFA with glimmerdin...and ever since it just feels like such a hard nerf in raid and I hate being mediocre dps/heals in a raid setting. I don't see that changing any time soon from watching you or others talk about holy paladin at the moment. It will stay retired. =(. Thanks so much for this video. I love hearing what you have to say about all content ahead of time!
Chad Faeline Stomp enjoyer! 💪 I still think there's much room for improvement in the MW tree but I'm pretty happy with how it is right now. Give us some unique MW raid utility and we'll be golden.
Hi Madskillzz, some things to keep in mind- 1. There is no such thing as a melee healer in PvP. So many creators seem to forget about that. 2. If not 25yard range why bring other healer classes over Evoker. Same classes will continue to be benched 3. PI is utility. Priests are being favoured right now in M+ because of it. Imagine if they had an interrupt as well
What healers are being benched right now? Healer balance in raid has never been better. Also, pi is baaaaarely utility. Most people would consider it under the umbrella of dps, altho you are correct that priests are favored right now because of it
@@andrew-hf9fl PI buffs a DPS's damage. I don't know how that isn't considered utility. MW, HP, DiscP are far less favoured (I.e. benched) than other healers in raids currently. HPs are really only being taken for aura and aura mastery
Blizzard trying to offer range Holy Pally worries me a lot since I love the melee style. I tend to agree that they should focus on making it a really interesting melee healer rather than trying to create, balance, and maintain two specs in one. I get some people enjoyed ranged holy pally back in the day I even mained it but its just going to make our spec worse off in the long run while Blizzard fails to balance and maintain both styles as well as it not even really fitting the whole pally feel, look, and lore.
@@bradmiles1984 Plus healer dps has become very much an important factor ever since, so even with Mastery changes it would be hard to sell us a passive ranged holy Paladin when the alternative can actively contribute damage with a very high uptime to generate its healing ressources.
The only issue with your take on holy paladin is that they started off as a caster healer, and people liked that style. They were later changed to melee healing, and for a lot of people this wasn't a welcome change. People asking for the caster option, by and large, just want the option to play their toon how they did before. In before "LOL, just play priest noob".
All healers also started off with having to use ineffective lower rank healers to preserve mana and having to stand around not playing the game during healing downtimes to let mana-regen kick in. Holy Paladin in special also started off with being a pure buffer who does some heals in between. The game evolves.
100% agree on the pally section. I may be switching to shaman because of their direction. It is a waste of time. They have to change infusion of light and our mastery if they want to take this seriously.
If they're committed to making a hybrid ranged/melee out of Holy Paladin, wouldn't it be easier to make some of the abilities proximity sensitive? Modify cast/cost/power based on a range condition; you could do the same with proc chances/stacks. Then add a range highlight to the unit frames for QoL. That way, you'd end up using mostly the same talents, with some value shifts based on how you're playing it. Bake the flexibility into the class, rather than trying to duct-tape it on via the talents.
Agree with you on Hpal. All specs are getting something exciting and new, and we get some hard cast spells which we either are not going to use because of bad scaling with mastery and they are to weak, or are they are balanced really strong and then thelly feel chunk. Considering reroll ing right now. We should get a spell that let us inst cast our new hard cast or just let it proc of light infusion.
Every new talent for holy paladin basically reads "cast flash of light and holy light more also ignore the rest of your kit" just why blizzard wrath classic exists if you wanna spam holy light lol
I don't understand the 25yd range on evokers healing spells, I understand limiting the range of their damaging abilities, but limiting healing range is so unnecessarily restrictive
I don't understand why they don't change infusion of light to make holy light instant cast, or at the very least have a choice node for that. That would make using HL way more appealing for the instant cast melee build, and all of a sudden all those nodes buffing HL become more appealing regardless of playstyle. I also wish they'd make a post clarifying their intention with the caster playstyle. I think people use caster and ranged interchangeably, but its possible blizzard sees caster pally as a mid-ranged healer. One that stays close enough to melee to hit them with light of dawn, but far enough away that they can cast and not have to worry about cleave/ground effects. It would also explain why they haven't touched their mastery yet.
I like the old holy paladin. Melee stacked with some hard casts and a few instant. I think I can get on with a straight melee build but I want the older style 2-5 man focus. Holy pally was never meant to be a whole raid healer it is small group or tank specific healer
Great video, unfortunately i cant agree with your take on the holy paladin. The moment they changed holy paladin to a melee healer, was the moment they killed my faviourite class and spec. The best place the Holy palading has been IMO was in Cataclysm. If their offering more options for players, then that can only be a good thing.
I've played Mistweaver since Warlords expansion and I got really fed up in season 2 of shadowlands and stopped. I'm so happy about your excitement for Mistweavers and I've been recently messing with mine again. I am 100% going to main a Mistweaver in Dragonflight. I really hope MW will be strong for M+. Also Im excited about the acid rain on resto shaman so I'll probably be maining 2 healers. XD Who knows maybe three. I definitely intend to try out evoker.
I'm so confused now. I've watched four healer videos for Dragonflight and all four have a different #1 healer. One says Resto Druid, one says Holy Priest, another says Resto Shaman and one says Mistweaver. Most of them says Paladin is useful but not the best. I'm a ranged DPS (mostly druid but some times Shaman sometimes Warlock), I want to change to another role since Blizzard can't seem to make up their minds about the utility of Moonkins. Seems at first they are OP and get nerfed and nerfed again, there is just no consistency to Druid DPS. I'm leaning toward Resto Druid or Holy Priest or Resto Shaman but the concerns are Totems are confusing, Chakras, Hyms and power words are confusing to me. So I guess my question is what healer do you play (everyone) when you need serious heavy healing?
Completely agree with you on paladins, focus on melee, that's what they do. I am really excited for evoker however it seems as a healer it's only going to suit m+ so as I have done since vanilla, shaman will be my main 🤷🏼♂️
We shamans Main are something else. I feel people who Main shaman are one of the if not the most dedicated playerbase ever. My first toon was a shaman, been playing shaman since tbc and i won't play any other healer in DF despite evoker looking amazing
19:07 Just to give a different perspective. I agree with Blizzard for giving us built choice. Even if there is one superior built, in reality, many players still perform better with spec / built that they enjoy playing compared to playing 'best' built that they don't enjoy. I fall under this category of player, that's why I support Blizz decision in giving us multiple playstyle. One argument would be: Why don't you practice the best built until you master it? Your output would be higher. Sorry, but WoW is a game for me, not a second job. I have pushed myself to get better and better at my job, now I just want to chill and enjoy WoW. I'm not going to play something that I don't enjoy especially when I am not getting paid to do so lol
I think the argument is that by splitting holy paladin into two separate playstyles, neither of them will get full attention and therefore be less fun to play. There are 5 ranged classes to pick up for those who want to play ranged healer, one of them (holy priest) is very similar in playstyle to "casting" hpal. Heal and Flash Heal are essentially identical to Holy Light and Flash of Light.
Well put. By this logic why even have separate builds? That's what makes WoW different than a game like FFXIV. As long as the ranged Holy Paladin spec works well enough, it's not a bad thing. FWIW, that's kind of how HPal worked in PvP for Shadowlands too and it was a top tier healer for quite some time, so it's definitely possible to have a good melee build and a good ranged build at the same time.
@@andrewshandle They arent saying dont have different builds or play styles.....they are saying make them melee. You can still make it feel completely different without making half their kit useless (ie making a melee char stand in range and do nothing but spam cast heals)
@@chrisford8352 by making them all melee you are saying don't have different play styles, so you kind of defeated your own point. In S1 of SL, a ranged HPal build was very effective in PvP based on some honor talents you'd take, and in M+ and Raiding, the melee build was very effective. A large part of that was due to Ashen Hollow, but Kyrian builds were also very good. So clearly it is possible to make a HPal build within the same expansion that can work with both play styles, _especially_ when you see that many class trees have their PvP Honor Talents from Shadowlands moved into their respective Talent Trees in Dragon Flight.
@@andrewshandle you realize how silly that sounds? Melee isn't a play style. You can be a melee hpal and have different builds/play styles. If they were actually going to make ranged viable again they need to rework mastery and light of dawn
I'll still be a holy pala main. It might not be the best designed one, especially with the mixing of melee and caster healer talents, but that also makes it's the most fun to experiment with. Shaman just does the same thing they always do, same with druid and priest. MW would be my second choice or Evoker
On the rare occasions (overpulling) I used soothing mist and still consumed my instant vivify it felt soooo bad. Even if they make each tick of SOOM reduce the CD on vivify instants that would feel so much better.
Realistically… you’re correct about holy pally. Perfectly balancing it isn’t going to work well… but if they can get it close, I’m excited for the option. For context, I push mid level keys mostly (15-22) with a decent amount of pugging. On weeks where affixes punish ranged or melee, getting to swap between the styles seems exciting. Similarly, if I pug into 3 melee dps, getting to swap to ranged seems valuable especially if the ranged/cast over time build is built around splash healing. But if they aren’t even close, I’d rather they focus on one or the other, preferring the melee style.
Honestly sad to see holy priest so low. We started off as the jack of all trade healers who had a bigger tool kit than most other healing classes, over the years other classes have gotten more interesting play styles and abilities than us - and remain far more mobile than us too. Priest is my favorite class but it might be time for me to look elsewhere. Since the devs have done little to make us more fun, or more competitive.
I mained hpala in SL; I like the melee healing style, BUT i do feel like as a healer they should have some incentive for casting but then again i dont feel like spam casting is they way to go, imo it should work that you cast your powerful abilities and your basic sustain rotation is melee and insta casts. Just from the top of my head something like; give power infusion 5 charges and make talent tree work with that, like you build your power charges and you cast them depending on situation for powerful spells, i think this would be fun as hell. For example give a choice talent to holy light which makes you choose between holy light cleave +1 target per infusion or only hits one target but target gets a shield or dr and the strenght of that is determined by the infusions you had.
Just take ancient teachings off from essence font! We only used it to proc the ability to be able to use melee abilitys. Its great that it's on baseline stomp but the bigger picture is it shouldn't be tied to a casted ability
25 yards? That's 5 more than fistweaver. Personally i'm happy for more unique healers rather than everyone being the same. True rduid would be easier, but when have that not been the case? As you said with Holy, it's good to have a few specs which are easier to learn even if they are hard to master. I also doubt blizzaard would leave evoker unplayable, meaning if they get this workaround weakness, the rest of their kit will be more rewarding.
I like the evokes but will have to wait for tuning. The range isn't an issue for me in dungeons as I am using around 25 yards due to wind shear range on the shaman. But I did find on the evokerr that if there was high damage and we had to move lots there wasn't many oh no buttons to push that meaningfully helped the group, which is odd given the incredible movement they have. The shaman has so many micro management buttons in the current iteration, not sure if I like that tbh. MV is super fun arm, hope it stays similar for live.
I dont see an issue with Evokers. Their range adds elements for skill expression and their mobility helps compensate for their low range. Evokers have some insane spells and with the right usage they're gonna be insane. Some fights will be worse for them and others will be insane, which every class has to deal with
The problem is the range being so low doesnt make the class any more exciting or interesting to play. Its a decision by blizzard just to be a decision and not for any meaningful reason. Theres no meaningful lore or class design reason for their range to be limited.
While skill expression through ingame awareness of teammate positioning due to 25 yard range is INDEED skill expression, the question is: is that fun or satisfying skill expression? When someone dies simply because they are arbitrarily 30 yards away from you eventually you will think to yourself, “why don’t I just reroll healers and actually be able to play the game and not just feel frustratingly impeded from the start? That’s my two cents
@Joshua Goyeau I've been playing beta. The mobility you get to make up for the range is certainly fun. You do sometimes feel very stressed and restricted with the range though. Overall it's going to be fine. It obviously needs to be ironed out a little. Like I said though, it's going to be either bad or just incredibly high skill cap in pvp because of this.
Soothing mist spot healing and prepping HoT spread to cycle through huge essence font revivals always felt perfect to me. Some proactive setup with big flashy follow through buttons. Fistweaving feels bad and I hate it so much. Literally quit my mistweaver because the 3x tigers palm spam feels SO FUCKING BAD, just demoralizing to have to spam wet noodle attacks.
Melee holy pally is not fun but the problem is the mastery. Bring back the absorb mastery for WoG. They should make it like MoP hpally. monk is actually fun and makes sense to me from a theme perspective. Holy paladin was ranged for years. I can’t remember if monk had fistweaving from release but they put it in fairly quickly. Just my opinion.
Agreed. Holy Paladin mastery feels so terrible. I also think all healer mastery should be reworked to add a damage aspect as well however. If tanks get damage & mitigation from mastery why can't healers get damage & healing? It can feel really terrible to get mastery on a piece of gear for an M+ environment currently.
How does Holy Paladin, a holy knight who was in the lore specifically created to counter act the limitations of priesthood of being incapable to act on the frontlines, being a melee healer not sense? They are a plate wearing healer usually having a shield with them, making them melee was finally Holy Paladins playstyle being in line with the identity of the class.
Truly enjoy your content and the time you put in for us. I will be maining Rsham like I always do. I had hoped to be able to main evoker but blizz gave me gust of wind back... Playing anything else is no longer an option lol
I think it’s good to have ranged options for the melee healers for the casual players that just want to play what they like and aren’t going for CE or pushing high keys. Ranged Paladin and monk don’t need to be competitive in 10+ keys, but the option should be there
The issue is that Blizz clearly overfocussed on making the ranged spec competetive despite the fact that just by its very nature it never will be at the expense of the melee spec which had defined Paladins class identity for the last couple of years ever since the glimmer of light trait.
Thank you for this video. Overall it gives a fair and good impression of the current state of healers. I agree on alot of parts except for the 'dual heal ability' on Holy Pala, i think this would be great. Yes some talents would be useless and maybe 'a waste of a developers time', but that goes for all classes, every class has useless talents/nodes. Aside from that, maybe they could try and incorporate nodes and talents that can serve both melee/ranged healing. Secondly, about the Evoker range, I'm not to sure how i feel about this. I mean you said yourself, 2 out of 7 healers in melee should be fine, why not 1 out of 7 in midrange? Yes it would be swell to heal from a distance but isn't this also just the design of the class? You can also instruct your party members to stand closer/take into account that the heal range of an Evoker is shorter. Again not sure yet about this. Thanks again for the video and showing us interesting content!
Their auto attack range is melee yes. And some spells. But all of their healing spells have a 40 yd range. Im interested to see what will happen but for now I think its pretty rough.
For what reason does Soothing Mist not need to be irrelevant? It's a channeled, single target, low through-put ability with bad visuals and almost no interactions with the rest of the Monk kit. No one likes the ability, it's boring. Just let us instant cast Vivify and come up with something to replace Soothing Mist at a later date.
@@dariasraven its situational, the effect existed mutliple times before, when its needed its great, when its not needed it costs more manage and your APM needs to increase to blanket a party or raid in hots
great vid btw. I have a question about beta. Does changing your Saved build to another saved build in the talent tree Save your keybinds the same way changing spec does now? Considering i want to play ranged MW in arena but Fistweave in M+, its gonna be a hassle changing my keybinds back and forth if it doesnt save em automatically from build to build. again thanks for the video! Goodstuff i can main my main again
When blizzard announced they were removing Spirit Shell I was okay with it because I figured, well they just removed a huge CD for us akin to removing spirit link for shamans, we must be getting something good to make up for it, and boy was I wrong
Soothing mist has been largely irrelevant for a decade, one of the biggest problems with Mistweaver design is that blizzard refuses to accept that fact.
As a resto druid main since wotlk, i'm not attracted by playing it again at DF. Not enough change for me. They just took spells/tier bonus/legendaries procs etc.. from previous expansion and put it in a talent tree... I'm really disapointed and may switch to my paladin
I haven't been lucky enough to try Evoker yet, but Holy pally has some of the same issues in a raid environment in terms of range. Light of Dawn will basically only heal melee which means your healing on ranged classes is limited. It's not zero like Evoker who can't reach, but the majority of your healing only hits melee. Maybe Evoker just needs one or two spells that can reach 40 yards or something. I'm also strictly an M+ player so if Evoker is bad in raid I won't mind.
Hold strong Priests. Sure, we don't get battle rez, or heroism, or good movement options (topkek feather), or MW DPS, or an interrupt; and Hymn is just a worse Tranquility... But at least we don't have to jump through 80 hoops to make things work. We hit a spell called heal, and it heals. Good enough! Also, PI :). Just being salty; still gonna rock Priest - but I'm def gonna get into some fistweaving as an alt.
Holy Casters should be pushed towards playing holy Priest, where them standing behind makes sense due to them being robe wearing clerics instead of knightly battle priests.
@@shizachan8421 Well .. if you want to play your pally as a melee go and play MW it has been well re-designed to play around melee healing. LOL! This type of answer makes any sense and makes me RLOL.. Holy priest are not Holy Pally (caster) same with MW bla bla.. you are compare potatoes and tomatoes
@@sashayaway204 What are the differences in themes, style and kits between Holy Paladins and Holy Priests that would justify them both as ranged caster healers? so far, the differences between both classes which I see are those that push Paladin further into the direction of being a melee healer, Paladins being holy Knights in heavy plate armor who in their backstory were created to engage their enemies in the melee where traditional clerics would be too vulnerable.
@@sashayaway204 Nobody cares about your stories about the gold ol' days when holy Paladin was a caster, Hitler was Reichskanzler and buses where seperated.
While I can see Evoker's range being an issue, the reality is that you just need to do some planning and position around them. As long as you keep them near the middle of spread situations they should be fine. I think their range puts them in a unique spot as far as position goes, it's what I like about the Holy Paladins mastery, but unlike Holy Paladins where they have to be in melee and just get screwed over by their mastery when it comes to healing ranged, Evokers don't have to be in melee. There should be enough play for it to be fine, tbh. I for one think the skill expression is something that should be worth trying out, at the very least. As for the melee versus caster Holy Paladin situation, I agree that Infusion of Light needs to be worth using which it currently isn't. That said, I don't think casting inherently feels bad as a melee healer. What feels bad is that when you go to cast, you end up doing no damage, gaining no Holy Power, gaining no Holy Shock CD reduction, doing no auto-attack damage; you lose everything and for what? Nothing, you don't even necessarily do more healing; all of this is what feels bad. If all they did was add something like "Every time you consume a stack of Infusion of Light, you increased the damage and holy power generation of your next Crusader Strike by 100%, stacking up to 5 times." And make the double Infusion Proc baseline, with Inflorescence doubling that for people who really want to cast a lot. Would anyone think that casting would feel bad then? At least for me, no, because you're no longer losing so much, and in fact gaining a way to burst out Holy Power, which is actually cool.
There is only 2 things that differ Disc drastical from the other healers: 1. shielding and thereby preventing dmg right from the beginning 2. healing by dealing dmg i dont mind if we got a (somewhat balanced) spirit shell or other options to be the shielder as long as they dont kill it like in Shadowlands. Yeah you were placing your shields but not for the shield but the atonement. IMAO it just takes away too much of the unikeness of Disc ans Disc with SS isn't that insane! Yes in the past you were able to negate complete boss mechanics, but then you were 90% useless until going for your next ramp as your manaconsumtion is just insane!
13:00 Does PI cause issues or does it just reveal people's issues with other people? If people get jealous or upset the meters didn't come out fairly well, that's why we can't have nice things like PI. Although it could be more neutral than that like, players in general just are more interested in a game where you are the only one responsible for your own performance and when other people are the deciding factor, it's more difficult to have the competitive side of the game that we like. That said, players' DPS is already hugely affected by everyone else in the group. Buffs, bloodlust+heroism, kill times, pull pack sizes, getting heals, etc. So PI just needs to be balanced in line with the rest of it. What if PI simply left a long 'weakened soul-like' debuff on the player so it would have to be used on others? Then it would be the priest's job and skill to know and coordinate w/ every player's "moment in the spotlight". If they mess up when it's your turn, well, you could have not gotten heals and died just as well.
Completely agree with you on Holy Paladins. Im HP main since vanilla WoW, and this new iteration of it is probably the most confusing one ever. The problem is that there is no "ranged vs melee" choice for Paladin, there is "hardcasting vs instant cast" choice, because our mastery and DPS toolkit doesnt allow to be effective to stay ranged. This means we will always stay melee, regardless of the build. And hardcasting in melee is pretty damn unfun thing. And Blizzard just made way to big emphasis on hardcasting. Its weird and clunky. And instant cast melee playstyle feels abandoned, since there was no proper buffs to it, it became even weaker than SL version, since we lost VH, lost ringing clarity, lost Ashen Hallow, lost WoG shield conduit, Mad Paragon is nerfed etc. At this point id rather use Golden ENB Preset and play Fistweaver, since for some reason devs working on it knows exactly how instant casting melee healer should be designed.
Which healer are you most excited for in Dragonflight? 🤔
I don't know MW got so many nerfs on alpha and beta already. I feel like they will keep doing it until we will be D tier again.... :(
Fistweaver monk was designed by some competent dev for sure, and Holy Paladin dev should feel no shame in asking the help from that dude.
Most probably for Resto Druid. I've been waiting for him to get good for M+ in all SL, and that never happened.
Don't get me wrong, he was a stellar choice for raid, but that's about it.
Especially in Season 1+2, if you wanted him to put more damage, you had to get all these offensive trinkets, add a lot of versatility to the stats, and even
apply all conduits + souldbind that would make him kinda good in outputting damage.
Your videos really helped me achieve a 2560 rio in season 2, biggest dungeon I timed was a +23. I'm really grateful for your content.
Now I'm back in season 4 playing with a holy priest, because I don't think I'm going to be playing him in dragonflight.
The question is, what are you going to play in Dragonflight?
@@raharbour388 till the nerfs being weird
Shaman.
I am painfully mediocre at video editing, so these type of videos take me ages to finish. If you enjoy this type of content please consider liking the video and subscribing for future content. Thank you! 🔥🔥🔥
Your videos are such high quality in terms of knowledge and information, editing doesn't even matter bro! Keep it up man, I value your opinions over any other creator.
You do a very good job, it shows
Brilliant video - I love content like this.
Tier lists that try to rank how powerful a class will be aren’t particularly useful, because it’s all subject to change, but tier lists like this that give an insight into how a class actually feels to play are great food for thought for those of us without access to the beta.
I totally agree with you, and it's usually the hardest type of video to find. I also really hope Blizzard will watch this video and see how taking away priest utility doesn't make much logical sense. I honestly feel like parts of the blue post MadSkillzz talks about basically says, "We gave X class this ability that's new for them but the same thing you've had so now we have to take away your ability and utility that you already had."
100% agree, I watch your content exactly because of you giving a feeling for Playstyle / limitations / strengths
As someone who has been a caster healer for the longest time (holy priest) playing paladin in SL recently has. Been soooo refreshing, it’s fun, interactive, melee dps’ing, managing holy power, it’s a lot of fun…I don’t want that to turn into caster healer either
There's literally yet another ranged healer coming, so many other choices if you dont want to melee. Not sure why people are asking for this
Really like this detailed rankings. I’m glad you take the time to do these.
100% with you on Holy Paladin. Such a disappointing direction for them to take.
Thank you, Mad. A vast amount of information to prepare Dragonflight. Nice day.
I just released my Dragonflight M+ healer video! Let me know what you think 👉 ruclips.net/video/UH5a1nkAEsg/видео.html
Well, I understand it is your opinion, but no. Hpaladin was a Range healer for Vanilla, TBC, Wotlk, Cata, MoP, WoD and Legion. They were changed in 8.2 until today, so out of the 9 versions of the game, they have been a Melee healer for only 2, so no, at least historically they should not be Melee healer.
Also, we are HEALERS, we should be healing 95% of the time, at least in raid scenario. Sure, you need a healer to do DPS in M+, but that should not be a definite factor to bring X healer over X healer. The reason why I think they are going in the right direction is because there are 3 types of players out there. We have Casual players who will only do LFR and Normal Raiding as well as M+ up until maybe 8, then semi hardcore players who will do Heroic and Mythic but slowly and M+ up until maybe 17 and then we have Hardcore players who will always try to be the first at everything and beat the hardest available difficulties super fast. Range Holy Paladin is aimed to please the first 2 types of players, and the Melee Holy Paladin one is aimed to please the last one. As easy as that.
Recent priest post just killed all my hype for DF. They are making most squishest class more squishy and now no kicks for them. I don't want to be liability to the group so I'm moving to resto sham.
MW and HPal both need the ranged healing playstyle because thats the way PvP works atm. Whether you want to talk about it or not, PvP is still an aspect of the game. I like the way the MW looks and I have 3 different talents I'm looking at in terms of M+, raid and PvP.
Exactly. The caster talents are more for pvp. Hpal can’t just tank two dps in melee. They aren’t there for pve besides for less optimal builds for raid fights that aren’t good for melee - like Fetid in Uldir.
Holy Paladin healing through melee and dps sounds awesome if made right. Fits the fantasy more.
After reading some of the comments, I have to conclude that some people would be well advised to look at the introduction before forming an opinion.
This tier list is about how easy it was for him to heal disorganized pug groups in a +10 and contribute some damage. Does it matter under that premise that priests have a lack of defensives? Or that priests lost utility? Or that shamans have a lot of utility? Or that tier lists of other content creators (presumably about what they think which healer is the best in general) look different?
No.
Again, it's just about how easy it was for him in a disorganized pug group.
Thanks for the content! Cant wait to play the new disc.
Really glad to hear that Monk fistweaving is still fun after the instant viv change. So hyped.
There is literally ZERO reason to worry about the people who want a ranged HPally, priests are a thing, I'm really bummed they're trying to do both. I like not using hard casts, it's part of what makes them fun, I'm always doing something, not just standing there.
This is 100% on point and I am glad someone is talking loud and clear about melee healers. Vivify cant be instant without any kind of limitation to it but talent like this just makes spec feel glitchy. What do you think if vivify was instant but had penance like effect just from melee? One where doesn't cleave unless it bounces of enemy just in melee range.
I will play my Resto Shaman in DF hope it feels good and can be the DPS healer from BfA.
Disc allowed me to play damage mitigation and prevention focused. Seeing that being thrown out makes me sad...
Thak you for beeing vocal about the preservation healers problems. I really hope blizz makes a talent which allows evokers to increase their range, it is sorely needes or the class will be dead...which would be sad because they look cool and play fun.
Please make an update videos when DF comes out. Love this ranking format.
Vivify should be a double talent to choose from.
Make instant but with a 6 sec cooldown
Sort of like Holy Shock, your kicks reduce the cooldown by 1.5 seconds and Crits reset the cooldown.
Or just keep vivify normal.
100% agree with what you say about paladins and monks being melee healers. Even in lore and theme, ranged hpal become too close to holy priests in my mind, it feels redundant
Hi there, thanks for the video and starting off with MW - I have played MW since WoD and I like how they have tried to incorporate more and more fistweaving over the years, with this new DF iteration being the best, hands down. On PTR I was just clearing HoS Solo with my MW, because the healing and dmg are so consistent and good, its mindboggling. Even done some HC with others and I think I might main a MW in healing M+ throughout DF if it stays this way. Its so, so enjoyable! :3
This video was supposed to be about what healers were most fun, and the Evoker is the most fun I have had healing in a decade. Yes, the 25 yard range is problematic, but it doesn't make it less "fun".
Its hard to argue that evoker is more fun because of the 25 yard range though, its just an inconvenience at the best of times
@@paxtonjolly7975 I didn't say it was fun "because" of the 25 yard range, I said it's fun even with it. I do think the range should increase.
I absolutely love this video and I’m so happy to see so much monk love! Can’t wait to try evokers and I think the range thing differentiates them. I haven’t had a chance to try it out yet, but your ranged argument for them sounds like an argument of bringing a death knight tank because they’re slow as opposed to a monk who is fast - they’re different but that’s the beauty of different classes
I rolled my paladin in 2009. Back then, holy paladins were not melee healers. I hate melee healing, and I'd be happy to finally be able to heal from range again.
well you can always take your basic bitch ass and roll priest. Paladins use plate armor not to stand back and casts some stupid spells.
I rolled Paladin for the first time in 2007 and I say that them being melee healers is finally Holy Paladins being in line with what their class thematically should represent. They were created as Priests who train in knightly martial arts to be able to use their powers in the frontlines of battles, where Priests could not in Lore. Why even wear plate armor and have a shield, when standing far behind?
fist weaving in early shadowlands was the most fun I've ever had with a healer. Super excited about playing it in dragonflight
I’ve come around on the evoker 25 yard range. As a mistweaver main, we currently heal mainly in a 20-30 yard range. Rjw is 10 yards. Atotm is 20 yards. Essence font is 30 yards. I’m a raid setting the only thing at 40 yards I’d be using is renewing mist. Granted I haven’t had alpha/beta access yet but I feel like the range limitation won’t feel too different to mistweaver healing yard range.
I have been playing it a lot on Alpha/Beta. It really depends on how you play because it's actually a very versatile healer. Positional spells, shields, hots, ramps with echo etc....Right now, because heroic damage is pretty low, it's fairly easy to manage the range with rescue/hover/deep breath and not get yourself into trouble. It also is very obviously part of the class fantasy I think - it is supposed to be a very dynamic feeling healer where you are zipping around, positioning yourself.
I suppose I'm currently looking forward to trying out the resto shammy. Them trying to force the mêlée healers to hard cast spells is killing my excitement for either of them atm.
100% agree with you on holy paladin. Am gutted not to be maining it in DF but it's not the melee, instant cast healer I grew to love.
Blizzard specifically said in their blue post “we don’t want ranged to overpower the melee playstyle, we just want it to be viable” (aka playable but worse). They have also put all of their time into making ranged playstyle abilities. This means blizz has put all of their time into an intentionally sub optimal style of play which feels terrible for the spec overall.
Fantastic video and wholly agree with your logic and opinions brother. Keep it up!
Acid rain for Shaman reminds me of that massive damage heal of rain in torghast so that chain i love especially if it will scale pretty good!!
I was a holy paladin main 2008 to beginning of CN. I am a raid healer at heart so I dropped it in a heartbeat after all that time of maining it....for resto druid and resto shaman. I will continue to go that route for DF. I am disappointed once again about holy paladin. IMO they made it waaay waaay too much fun in BFA with glimmerdin...and ever since it just feels like such a hard nerf in raid and I hate being mediocre dps/heals in a raid setting. I don't see that changing any time soon from watching you or others talk about holy paladin at the moment. It will stay retired. =(. Thanks so much for this video. I love hearing what you have to say about all content ahead of time!
Chad Faeline Stomp enjoyer! 💪 I still think there's much room for improvement in the MW tree but I'm pretty happy with how it is right now. Give us some unique MW raid utility and we'll be golden.
Hi Madskillzz, some things to keep in mind-
1. There is no such thing as a melee healer in PvP. So many creators seem to forget about that.
2. If not 25yard range why bring other healer classes over Evoker. Same classes will continue to be benched
3. PI is utility. Priests are being favoured right now in M+ because of it. Imagine if they had an interrupt as well
What healers are being benched right now? Healer balance in raid has never been better. Also, pi is baaaaarely utility. Most people would consider it under the umbrella of dps, altho you are correct that priests are favored right now because of it
@@andrew-hf9fl PI buffs a DPS's damage. I don't know how that isn't considered utility.
MW, HP, DiscP are far less favoured (I.e. benched) than other healers in raids currently. HPs are really only being taken for aura and aura mastery
Blizzard trying to offer range Holy Pally worries me a lot since I love the melee style. I tend to agree that they should focus on making it a really interesting melee healer rather than trying to create, balance, and maintain two specs in one. I get some people enjoyed ranged holy pally back in the day I even mained it but its just going to make our spec worse off in the long run while Blizzard fails to balance and maintain both styles as well as it not even really fitting the whole pally feel, look, and lore.
Problem is their mastery was totally different when they were ranged, the current mastery will be rough if trying to heal at range.
@@bradmiles1984 Plus healer dps has become very much an important factor ever since, so even with Mastery changes it would be hard to sell us a passive ranged holy Paladin when the alternative can actively contribute damage with a very high uptime to generate its healing ressources.
The only issue with your take on holy paladin is that they started off as a caster healer, and people liked that style. They were later changed to melee healing, and for a lot of people this wasn't a welcome change. People asking for the caster option, by and large, just want the option to play their toon how they did before. In before "LOL, just play priest noob".
Yeah I enjoy caster hpal way more than melee one
So go play one. They’re called priests 🙄
@@kique821 Old
All healers also started off with having to use ineffective lower rank healers to preserve mana and having to stand around not playing the game during healing downtimes to let mana-regen kick in. Holy Paladin in special also started off with being a pure buffer who does some heals in between. The game evolves.
100% agree on the pally section. I may be switching to shaman because of their direction. It is a waste of time. They have to change infusion of light and our mastery if they want to take this seriously.
If they're committed to making a hybrid ranged/melee out of Holy Paladin, wouldn't it be easier to make some of the abilities proximity sensitive? Modify cast/cost/power based on a range condition; you could do the same with proc chances/stacks. Then add a range highlight to the unit frames for QoL. That way, you'd end up using mostly the same talents, with some value shifts based on how you're playing it. Bake the flexibility into the class, rather than trying to duct-tape it on via the talents.
Agree with you on Hpal. All specs are getting something exciting and new, and we get some hard cast spells which we either are not going to use because of bad scaling with mastery and they are to weak, or are they are balanced really strong and then thelly feel chunk. Considering reroll ing right now. We should get a spell that let us inst cast our new hard cast or just let it proc of light infusion.
Every new talent for holy paladin basically reads "cast flash of light and holy light more also ignore the rest of your kit" just why blizzard wrath classic exists if you wanna spam holy light lol
Fistweaving being back in DF is the one thing I love about the Beta so far
I don't understand the 25yd range on evokers healing spells, I understand limiting the range of their damaging abilities, but limiting healing range is so unnecessarily restrictive
I don't understand why they don't change infusion of light to make holy light instant cast, or at the very least have a choice node for that. That would make using HL way more appealing for the instant cast melee build, and all of a sudden all those nodes buffing HL become more appealing regardless of playstyle.
I also wish they'd make a post clarifying their intention with the caster playstyle. I think people use caster and ranged interchangeably, but its possible blizzard sees caster pally as a mid-ranged healer. One that stays close enough to melee to hit them with light of dawn, but far enough away that they can cast and not have to worry about cleave/ground effects. It would also explain why they haven't touched their mastery yet.
I like the old holy paladin. Melee stacked with some hard casts and a few instant. I think I can get on with a straight melee build but I want the older style 2-5 man focus. Holy pally was never meant to be a whole raid healer it is small group or tank specific healer
i fell off after the first raid in SL as a fistweaver, and this is very exciting stuff to see!!
Great video, unfortunately i cant agree with your take on the holy paladin.
The moment they changed holy paladin to a melee healer, was the moment they killed my faviourite class and spec.
The best place the Holy palading has been IMO was in Cataclysm.
If their offering more options for players, then that can only be a good thing.
I've played Mistweaver since Warlords expansion and I got really fed up in season 2 of shadowlands and stopped. I'm so happy about your excitement for Mistweavers and I've been recently messing with mine again. I am 100% going to main a Mistweaver in Dragonflight. I really hope MW will be strong for M+. Also Im excited about the acid rain on resto shaman so I'll probably be maining 2 healers. XD Who knows maybe three. I definitely intend to try out evoker.
I'm so confused now. I've watched four healer videos for Dragonflight and all four have a different #1 healer. One says Resto Druid, one says Holy Priest, another says Resto Shaman and one says Mistweaver. Most of them says Paladin is useful but not the best. I'm a ranged DPS (mostly druid but some times Shaman sometimes Warlock), I want to change to another role since Blizzard can't seem to make up their minds about the utility of Moonkins. Seems at first they are OP and get nerfed and nerfed again, there is just no consistency to Druid DPS. I'm leaning toward Resto Druid or Holy Priest or Resto Shaman but the concerns are Totems are confusing, Chakras, Hyms and power words are confusing to me. So I guess my question is what healer do you play (everyone) when you need serious heavy healing?
Completely agree with you on paladins, focus on melee, that's what they do. I am really excited for evoker however it seems as a healer it's only going to suit m+ so as I have done since vanilla, shaman will be my main 🤷🏼♂️
We shamans Main are something else. I feel people who Main shaman are one of the if not the most dedicated playerbase ever. My first toon was a shaman, been playing shaman since tbc and i won't play any other healer in DF despite evoker looking amazing
take me back to the days of nyalotha hpal where we could outdps tanks and full heal with a crit holy shock
Dude!!! We know already Paladin Blows!!! It has been like that for ages now!!!
19:07 Just to give a different perspective. I agree with Blizzard for giving us built choice.
Even if there is one superior built, in reality, many players still perform better with spec / built that they enjoy playing compared to playing 'best' built that they don't enjoy.
I fall under this category of player, that's why I support Blizz decision in giving us multiple playstyle.
One argument would be: Why don't you practice the best built until you master it? Your output would be higher.
Sorry, but WoW is a game for me, not a second job. I have pushed myself to get better and better at my job, now I just want to chill and enjoy WoW.
I'm not going to play something that I don't enjoy especially when I am not getting paid to do so lol
I think the argument is that by splitting holy paladin into two separate playstyles, neither of them will get full attention and therefore be less fun to play. There are 5 ranged classes to pick up for those who want to play ranged healer, one of them (holy priest) is very similar in playstyle to "casting" hpal. Heal and Flash Heal are essentially identical to Holy Light and Flash of Light.
Well put. By this logic why even have separate builds? That's what makes WoW different than a game like FFXIV. As long as the ranged Holy Paladin spec works well enough, it's not a bad thing. FWIW, that's kind of how HPal worked in PvP for Shadowlands too and it was a top tier healer for quite some time, so it's definitely possible to have a good melee build and a good ranged build at the same time.
@@andrewshandle They arent saying dont have different builds or play styles.....they are saying make them melee. You can still make it feel completely different without making half their kit useless (ie making a melee char stand in range and do nothing but spam cast heals)
@@chrisford8352 by making them all melee you are saying don't have different play styles, so you kind of defeated your own point.
In S1 of SL, a ranged HPal build was very effective in PvP based on some honor talents you'd take, and in M+ and Raiding, the melee build was very effective. A large part of that was due to Ashen Hollow, but Kyrian builds were also very good. So clearly it is possible to make a HPal build within the same expansion that can work with both play styles, _especially_ when you see that many class trees have their PvP Honor Talents from Shadowlands moved into their respective Talent Trees in Dragon Flight.
@@andrewshandle you realize how silly that sounds? Melee isn't a play style. You can be a melee hpal and have different builds/play styles. If they were actually going to make ranged viable again they need to rework mastery and light of dawn
personally loved spirit shell. I think it made the spec feel unique and is what drew me to the spec.
Love these videos! Curious where evoker would be now that they upped the range a bit tho.
Excited for the evoker, going to be my main. I dont care about raiding anymore, so the range isn't a big worry for me.
u will have couple of same situations in m+ on higher keys
I'll still be a holy pala main. It might not be the best designed one, especially with the mixing of melee and caster healer talents, but that also makes it's the most fun to experiment with. Shaman just does the same thing they always do, same with druid and priest. MW would be my second choice or Evoker
On the rare occasions (overpulling) I used soothing mist and still consumed my instant vivify it felt soooo bad. Even if they make each tick of SOOM reduce the CD on vivify instants that would feel so much better.
Realistically… you’re correct about holy pally. Perfectly balancing it isn’t going to work well… but if they can get it close, I’m excited for the option.
For context, I push mid level keys mostly (15-22) with a decent amount of pugging. On weeks where affixes punish ranged or melee, getting to swap between the styles seems exciting. Similarly, if I pug into 3 melee dps, getting to swap to ranged seems valuable especially if the ranged/cast over time build is built around splash healing.
But if they aren’t even close, I’d rather they focus on one or the other, preferring the melee style.
Honestly sad to see holy priest so low. We started off as the jack of all trade healers who had a bigger tool kit than most other healing classes, over the years other classes have gotten more interesting play styles and abilities than us - and remain far more mobile than us too. Priest is my favorite class but it might be time for me to look elsewhere. Since the devs have done little to make us more fun, or more competitive.
I play best on my MV, but fancy a change, really not sure what to choose.
I mained hpala in SL; I like the melee healing style, BUT i do feel like as a healer they should have some incentive for casting but then again i dont feel like spam casting is they way to go, imo it should work that you cast your powerful abilities and your basic sustain rotation is melee and insta casts. Just from the top of my head something like; give power infusion 5 charges and make talent tree work with that, like you build your power charges and you cast them depending on situation for powerful spells, i think this would be fun as hell. For example give a choice talent to holy light which makes you choose between holy light cleave +1 target per infusion or only hits one target but target gets a shield or dr and the strenght of that is determined by the infusions you had.
Just take ancient teachings off from essence font! We only used it to proc the ability to be able to use melee abilitys. Its great that it's on baseline stomp but the bigger picture is it shouldn't be tied to a casted ability
25 yards? That's 5 more than fistweaver.
Personally i'm happy for more unique healers rather than everyone being the same.
True rduid would be easier, but when have that not been the case? As you said with Holy, it's good to have a few specs which are easier to learn even if they are hard to master.
I also doubt blizzaard would leave evoker unplayable, meaning if they get this workaround weakness, the rest of their kit will be more rewarding.
I like the evokes but will have to wait for tuning. The range isn't an issue for me in dungeons as I am using around 25 yards due to wind shear range on the shaman. But I did find on the evokerr that if there was high damage and we had to move lots there wasn't many oh no buttons to push that meaningfully helped the group, which is odd given the incredible movement they have. The shaman has so many micro management buttons in the current iteration, not sure if I like that tbh. MV is super fun arm, hope it stays similar for live.
I agree in regards to holy paladin man. They need to figure out what they want with the spec.
I dont see an issue with Evokers. Their range adds elements for skill expression and their mobility helps compensate for their low range. Evokers have some insane spells and with the right usage they're gonna be insane. Some fights will be worse for them and others will be insane, which every class has to deal with
The problem is the range being so low doesnt make the class any more exciting or interesting to play. Its a decision by blizzard just to be a decision and not for any meaningful reason. Theres no meaningful lore or class design reason for their range to be limited.
While skill expression through ingame awareness of teammate positioning due to 25 yard range is INDEED skill expression, the question is: is that fun or satisfying skill expression?
When someone dies simply because they are arbitrarily 30 yards away from you eventually you will think to yourself, “why don’t I just reroll healers and actually be able to play the game and not just feel frustratingly impeded from the start? That’s my two cents
I think most of the issue is with pvp. In pve I don't at all mind the range. In pvp it's almost certainly a death sentence for the spec.
all the foaming in the replies 😂 the range looks fun to me
@Joshua Goyeau I've been playing beta. The mobility you get to make up for the range is certainly fun. You do sometimes feel very stressed and restricted with the range though. Overall it's going to be fine. It obviously needs to be ironed out a little. Like I said though, it's going to be either bad or just incredibly high skill cap in pvp because of this.
I disagree on the melee healers part. I looooove ranged healing as monk so I would hate to feel forced to place melee
Soothing mist spot healing and prepping HoT spread to cycle through huge essence font revivals always felt perfect to me. Some proactive setup with big flashy follow through buttons. Fistweaving feels bad and I hate it so much. Literally quit my mistweaver because the 3x tigers palm spam feels SO FUCKING BAD, just demoralizing to have to spam wet noodle attacks.
Melee holy pally is not fun but the problem is the mastery. Bring back the absorb mastery for WoG. They should make it like MoP hpally. monk is actually fun and makes sense to me from a theme perspective. Holy paladin was ranged for years. I can’t remember if monk had fistweaving from release but they put it in fairly quickly. Just my opinion.
Agreed. Holy Paladin mastery feels so terrible. I also think all healer mastery should be reworked to add a damage aspect as well however. If tanks get damage & mitigation from mastery why can't healers get damage & healing? It can feel really terrible to get mastery on a piece of gear for an M+ environment currently.
How does Holy Paladin, a holy knight who was in the lore specifically created to counter act the limitations of priesthood of being incapable to act on the frontlines, being a melee healer not sense? They are a plate wearing healer usually having a shield with them, making them melee was finally Holy Paladins playstyle being in line with the identity of the class.
Truly enjoy your content and the time you put in for us. I will be maining Rsham like I always do. I had hoped to be able to main evoker but blizz gave me gust of wind back... Playing anything else is no longer an option lol
I think it’s good to have ranged options for the melee healers for the casual players that just want to play what they like and aren’t going for CE or pushing high keys. Ranged Paladin and monk don’t need to be competitive in 10+ keys, but the option should be there
The issue is that Blizz clearly overfocussed on making the ranged spec competetive despite the fact that just by its very nature it never will be at the expense of the melee spec which had defined Paladins class identity for the last couple of years ever since the glimmer of light trait.
Thank you for this video. Overall it gives a fair and good impression of the current state of healers. I agree on alot of parts except for the 'dual heal ability' on Holy Pala, i think this would be great. Yes some talents would be useless and maybe 'a waste of a developers time', but that goes for all classes, every class has useless talents/nodes. Aside from that, maybe they could try and incorporate nodes and talents that can serve both melee/ranged healing. Secondly, about the Evoker range, I'm not to sure how i feel about this. I mean you said yourself, 2 out of 7 healers in melee should be fine, why not 1 out of 7 in midrange? Yes it would be swell to heal from a distance but isn't this also just the design of the class? You can also instruct your party members to stand closer/take into account that the heal range of an Evoker is shorter. Again not sure yet about this.
Thanks again for the video and showing us interesting content!
Their auto attack range is melee yes. And some spells. But all of their healing spells have a 40 yd range. Im interested to see what will happen but for now I think its pretty rough.
Acid Rain alone, as meme-y it might be, is reason enough to stick to my shaman in DF.
For what reason does Soothing Mist not need to be irrelevant? It's a channeled, single target, low through-put ability with bad visuals and almost no interactions with the rest of the Monk kit. No one likes the ability, it's boring.
Just let us instant cast Vivify and come up with something to replace Soothing Mist at a later date.
Can't wait to be a fistweaver again!! Thank you for the content
They still have 2 or 3 months left to fix evoker. Lets hope for the best 😊
On druid, there is a Lifebloom build with Circle of Life and Death that gives you 35% increased tick speed. So more time to dps.
better bring a mage table :D
The more tick speed on hots the less time to dps 😅
@@d43d3 They will be healed faster and the dot and bleed damage will be increased by 15%. So win - win!
@@dariasraven its situational, the effect existed mutliple times before, when its needed its great, when its not needed it costs more manage and your APM needs to increase to blanket a party or raid in hots
@@dariasraven if you have questions about Restodruids you may join the Dreamgrove community.
Sadly all your takes are completely wrong.
great vid btw. I have a question about beta. Does changing your Saved build to another saved build in the talent tree Save your keybinds the same way changing spec does now? Considering i want to play ranged MW in arena but Fistweave in M+, its gonna be a hassle changing my keybinds back and forth if it doesnt save em automatically from build to build. again thanks for the video! Goodstuff i can main my main again
When blizzard announced they were removing Spirit Shell I was okay with it because I figured, well they just removed a huge CD for us akin to removing spirit link for shamans, we must be getting something good to make up for it, and boy was I wrong
Feeling gutted with priest changes. Feels like the class is going to be much less fun than previous iterations.
Soothing mist has been largely irrelevant for a decade, one of the biggest problems with Mistweaver design is that blizzard refuses to accept that fact.
How do you feel about the pvp vs pve considerations? How should that be resolved in a manner that pleases both for healing classes?
As a resto druid main since wotlk, i'm not attracted by playing it again at DF. Not enough change for me. They just took spells/tier bonus/legendaries procs etc.. from previous expansion and put it in a talent tree... I'm really disapointed and may switch to my paladin
I loved holy paladin, when it was ranged... So I would promote the ranged playstyle over melee one (which I hate with passion). But thats me... :-)
Paladin is a melee healer, but Evoker with their 25(now 30) yard healing is an issue?
"Don't tell Blizzard!" and is telling it the Internet haha
I haven't been lucky enough to try Evoker yet, but Holy pally has some of the same issues in a raid environment in terms of range. Light of Dawn will basically only heal melee which means your healing on ranged classes is limited. It's not zero like Evoker who can't reach, but the majority of your healing only hits melee. Maybe Evoker just needs one or two spells that can reach 40 yards or something. I'm also strictly an M+ player so if Evoker is bad in raid I won't mind.
What would you say is the easiest healer to play well?
I’ve healed with everything evoker healing is what I’m looking forward to
Hold strong Priests. Sure, we don't get battle rez, or heroism, or good movement options (topkek feather), or MW DPS, or an interrupt; and Hymn is just a worse Tranquility...
But at least we don't have to jump through 80 hoops to make things work. We hit a spell called heal, and it heals. Good enough! Also, PI :).
Just being salty; still gonna rock Priest - but I'm def gonna get into some fistweaving as an alt.
Caster Holy Paladin here! I am sooooo happy to get the orginal Holy Paladin direction back!
Holy Casters should be pushed towards playing holy Priest, where them standing behind makes sense due to them being robe wearing clerics instead of knightly battle priests.
@@shizachan8421 Well .. if you want to play your pally as a melee go and play MW it has been well re-designed to play around melee healing. LOL! This type of answer makes any sense and makes me RLOL.. Holy priest are not Holy Pally (caster) same with MW bla bla.. you are compare potatoes and tomatoes
@@sashayaway204 What are the differences in themes, style and kits between Holy Paladins and Holy Priests that would justify them both as ranged caster healers? so far, the differences between both classes which I see are those that push Paladin further into the direction of being a melee healer, Paladins being holy Knights in heavy plate armor who in their backstory were created to engage their enemies in the melee where traditional clerics would be too vulnerable.
@@shizachan8421 short answer:
1) play holy priest and you will understand by yourself the big difference
2) holy pally used to be caster 😉
@@sashayaway204 Nobody cares about your stories about the gold ol' days when holy Paladin was a caster, Hitler was Reichskanzler and buses where seperated.
Hey @MadSkillzzTV , which Group-Frame Addon are you using there on beta? :)
For a total noob here what do you mean 30 keys. Activating 30 abilities by key press? Or…. Something else. And affixes… what’s that?
They should give paladin and monk just a whole new spec for different styles of healing with different utilities.
While I can see Evoker's range being an issue, the reality is that you just need to do some planning and position around them. As long as you keep them near the middle of spread situations they should be fine. I think their range puts them in a unique spot as far as position goes, it's what I like about the Holy Paladins mastery, but unlike Holy Paladins where they have to be in melee and just get screwed over by their mastery when it comes to healing ranged, Evokers don't have to be in melee. There should be enough play for it to be fine, tbh. I for one think the skill expression is something that should be worth trying out, at the very least.
As for the melee versus caster Holy Paladin situation, I agree that Infusion of Light needs to be worth using which it currently isn't. That said, I don't think casting inherently feels bad as a melee healer. What feels bad is that when you go to cast, you end up doing no damage, gaining no Holy Power, gaining no Holy Shock CD reduction, doing no auto-attack damage; you lose everything and for what? Nothing, you don't even necessarily do more healing; all of this is what feels bad. If all they did was add something like "Every time you consume a stack of Infusion of Light, you increased the damage and holy power generation of your next Crusader Strike by 100%, stacking up to 5 times." And make the double Infusion Proc baseline, with Inflorescence doubling that for people who really want to cast a lot. Would anyone think that casting would feel bad then? At least for me, no, because you're no longer losing so much, and in fact gaining a way to burst out Holy Power, which is actually cool.
personal issue, but i just want to heal, i hate having to bother to dps as a healer, i chose a healer to heal not to dps.
There is only 2 things that differ Disc drastical from the other healers:
1. shielding and thereby preventing dmg right from the beginning
2. healing by dealing dmg
i dont mind if we got a (somewhat balanced) spirit shell or other options to be the shielder as long as they dont kill it like in Shadowlands. Yeah you were placing your shields but not for the shield but the atonement. IMAO it just takes away too much of the unikeness of Disc
ans Disc with SS isn't that insane! Yes in the past you were able to negate complete boss mechanics, but then you were 90% useless until going for your next ramp as your manaconsumtion is just insane!
SS is gone.. wont come back I think.
Hard agree on the paladin - eloquently stated some of the problems facing the current decision-making process.
13:00 Does PI cause issues or does it just reveal people's issues with other people? If people get jealous or upset the meters didn't come out fairly well, that's why we can't have nice things like PI.
Although it could be more neutral than that like, players in general just are more interested in a game where you are the only one responsible for your own performance and when other people are the deciding factor, it's more difficult to have the competitive side of the game that we like. That said, players' DPS is already hugely affected by everyone else in the group. Buffs, bloodlust+heroism, kill times, pull pack sizes, getting heals, etc. So PI just needs to be balanced in line with the rest of it.
What if PI simply left a long 'weakened soul-like' debuff on the player so it would have to be used on others? Then it would be the priest's job and skill to know and coordinate w/ every player's "moment in the spotlight". If they mess up when it's your turn, well, you could have not gotten heals and died just as well.
Completely agree with you on Holy Paladins. Im HP main since vanilla WoW, and this new iteration of it is probably the most confusing one ever. The problem is that there is no "ranged vs melee" choice for Paladin, there is "hardcasting vs instant cast" choice, because our mastery and DPS toolkit doesnt allow to be effective to stay ranged. This means we will always stay melee, regardless of the build. And hardcasting in melee is pretty damn unfun thing. And Blizzard just made way to big emphasis on hardcasting. Its weird and clunky. And instant cast melee playstyle feels abandoned, since there was no proper buffs to it, it became even weaker than SL version, since we lost VH, lost ringing clarity, lost Ashen Hallow, lost WoG shield conduit, Mad Paragon is nerfed etc.
At this point id rather use Golden ENB Preset and play Fistweaver, since for some reason devs working on it knows exactly how instant casting melee healer should be designed.