I don't think Vegeta was saying Gohan's SS2 form was weaker, I think he was saying Gohan was weaker, period. His base form is weaker and that makes all his forms weaker since they're multipliers.
i think following the introduction of SSJ2 as a general form not specific to Gohan, the more logical interpretation of Gohan v Cell is that Gohan was perfecting the rage boost he used to get as a child, as a means of enhancing his power all the way up to a new SSJ level. after doing that, he obviously still knew how to reach that SSJ level, but the specific means by which he achieved it may have been forgotten. ie, his perfected rage boost, which also would’ve helped make his SSJ2 form extra strong, was no longer present when fighting Dabura.
IF Gohan wasn't using SSj2, Vegeta would have pointed it out, as would Goku, when Vegeta was mocking Gohan during the Dabura fight, it wouldn't have meant a damn thing if Gohan was holding SSj2 back for no reason.
@@famalam943this is has already been settled by toryiama. Gohan was ssj2 and he was a little weaker than we he fought cell. He was still stronger than cell at full power power but he was extremely rusty. Dabura had the power level of super perfect cell so this is why he struggled
I always thought he went super Saiyan 2 when I was younger. I would recreate the fight in Dragonball Raging Blast 2, but one day I just turned super Saiyan 1 on accident and there was some dialogue between him and Dabura. This shifted my opinion that he was Super Saiyan 1 the whole time.
Vegeta DID casually say he could go SSJ2. Going Majin didn’t magically give him SSJ2, it made his SSJ2 as strong as Goku’s. Goku was just surprised at how strong Vegeta was
Nope, he never outright said it. He simply says he’s stronger than Goku after he knows Goku mastered SSJ. Which could be IMPLIED that he’s reached SSJ2 but in what world would Buu Saga Vegeta not immediately transform just to rub it in Goku’s face the moment he got a chance? This is the same Vegeta who has a cocky nature whenever he encounters any enemy even if they’re kicking his ass. So it’s basically neither confirmed nor denied and we’ll literally never know because of Toriyamas passing.
@@TheSCPStudio When Goku transforms in to SSJ2 against Yakkon, Vegeta thinks to himself something along the lines of (gotta paraphrase, don't have my manga on me rn) "So Kakarot's got that form too" or something like that. This could be taken as one of two things, either that Goku's also got that form like Gohan does, or that Goku's also got that form like Vegeta does. Using your own logic of "how cocky Vegeta is," considering how upset and flabbergasted he was with how strong Goku was in the Cell Saga after he and Gohan mastered SSJ1, he would not be so calm when he's thinking in his head, where no one else can hear him, if he saw Goku transform into a form that he himself couldn't transform into. Especially since Goku had been dead for 7 years and Vegeta didn't even know that Goku could train during those 7 years. So presumably be trained to surpass Cell Saga Goku and Gohan, which would naturally include getting SSJ2.
I have to disagree. Vegeta never went SSJ2 against Kid Buu, if he could do it at will, why didn't he. I think the Majin possession just gave Vegeta power equal to a SSJ2, which would explain the sparks, but would also explain why he couldn't go SSJ2 against Kid Buu.
@@Nestle245 you do realize I seen the video he said that the aura would change to spiky when they were powered up so the opposite should be true if they are physically weaker than they were before. also this is toriyama it could just be as everyone has assumed an error
7:30 I don't think Goku was surprised that Vegeta could turn SSJ2. He was likely surprised at how far Vegeta's power had grown to match his own SSJ2 power. As a side note, Vegeta could already turn SSJ2 before Majin. He hinted at this when Goku was fighting that monster that ate light (Yakon?), being the only one who noticed that Goku briefly turned SSJ2 to overwhelm Yakon. This thought bubble is only shown in the manga.
Plis the fact Vegeta thought he closed the gap between him and Gohan. I don't care if Gohan was slacking in peace time, Vegeta isn;t catching SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ1. So obviously he had SSJ2.
no man there goku realized that vegeta already had super saiyan 2. but He still let himself be mentally controlled by babidi to reduce the gap between them
I always figured that Gohan could TRANSFORM into SS2, but he probably just couldn’t sustain it in a fight like he used to since he didn’t train in that form; so he just used SS1 because he was used to it.
Goku wasn't surprised that Vegeta could go SSj2, i think you're miss-interpreting that scene in the manga. He's surprised at how STRONG Vegeta is as a SSJ, since its comparable to his own.
Majin Vegeta and Goku should already be equals as a SSJ, no? If Goku knew Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2, he shouldn't be surprised at his strength if SSJ Goku = SSJ Majin Vegeta. Vegeta only realized Goku could go SSJ2 from watching his fight with Yakon, but Goku never saw Vegeta transform before Vegeta went Majin. Even though Vegeta had unlocked SSJ2 already, it doesn't seem like Goku knew it.
@@simonkaggwanjala1459 Goku was surprised at how strong SS2 vegeta is because Vegeta trained on earth, meanwhile Goku had the benefit of Otherworld which was straight up a better place to train and get better results. Goku isn't surprised by the power, but the fact that Vegeta achieved the same Base strength as Goku while he was alive.
@@seksaouiabderraouf2531 It's actually both. Goku didn't know vegeta had ssj2 the manga makes it clear. In the manga goku says he's gonna finish the fight quickly so he went straight to ssj2 thinking vegeta didn't have it. He also stated mid battle that he was surprised that vegeta in ssj2 still could match him despite the hard training he did in the afterlife.
I notice SSJ 1, 2, and 3 have different Auras: - SSJ1 is like raging fire - SSJ2 is like sparks or lightning - SSJ3 is like an energy ball (in Buu saga that is)
Auras mean nothing in the anime. They’re just visual tools. Which is fine, but don’t think too hard about the meaning because of it. In the manga they dictate the control over energy or a form. Auras are the energy leaking from the individual. Once they master a form, there should be no aura.
@@TheSCPStudiowhich of course, explains “Super Saiyan Full Power”, or better known as “Super Saiyan Fourth Grade”. But even in the manga Super Saiyan is still seen with aura waaaay after the Buu Saga. And the DBS Manga introduces a form called “Perfected Blue” and I’m pretty sure blue aura appears after the transformation
If someone has played the Budokai Tenkaichi 2 there were informations for each character and their transformation. I recall that in the information about SSJ2 Adult Gohan said that it was only used against Kibito and for some inexplicable reason he never used it again. Which means he was just a regular SSJ against Dabura
doesn't work for the anime, and toriyama can't have forgotten for the manga because he was doing goku and vegeta's fight at the same time, which means that against all narrative consistency and integrity, he had to have been ssj1. then again toriyama's no stranger to bad writing, case and point the entire arc this debate sprung from
@@dankerbelljust so you know, bad writing is not synonymous with your personal opinion. You may not like it but it’s not bad writing. Bad writing is George Lucas throwing Star Wars together with no plans for the future while simultaneously starting at Episode 4. Making the brother and sister a love interest until he decided to randomly make them siblings 2 movies later. There’s nothing like that that’s comparable in the Buu Arc of DBZ.
@@TheSCPStudionah bad writing is king kai not telling future trunks and gohan where new namek was Or the inconsistency of gohans age we all like db but you’re just not looking at it objectively there’s plenty of points in db that doesn’t add up
your breakdown of this content is very impressive and very easy to understand, I love that you have cited your content, keep up the good work pal you got yourself a sub :)
Gohan probably couldn't risk getting angry incase he became out of control like he did against Cell. Instead of finishing Cell, he dragged things out which cost him his father and that probably left a mental scar on him.
That’s not correct, he it’s not that he was scared it’s that he couldn’t tap into that level of anger. He had become accustomed to the peace. Also keep in mind he was in his late teens at this point, so he was likely able to control his emotions better than when he was a child.
That makes no sense. Had he stayed angry enough during the entire fight against Cell, he would have finished him pretty quickly. He's extremely angry at Cell, thus he is out of control, dragging out the fight? You mean he was so angry he preferred tormenting Cell to killing him? Otherwise, that logic makes no sense.
This is a fantastic video. You presented the problem, all the difficulties in getting to a conclusive solution, mentioned how the anime was inconsistent and why that is. Defaulted to using the manga as the source but even then mentioned how it can be inconsistent too. Presented both sides with arguments for each and gave an informed opinion at the end. This is quality content.
This is such an interesting and well produced video. Most DBZ video creators let their love of the show get the best of them, resulting in more fanboying and less analyzing. But this is great! Please, more.
I think for Gohan it is more difficult to turn into SSJ2 because of his gentle nature and he still needs anger to reach this form because he didn't train to completly control SSJ2. That's why he said against boo and dabura. "I am angry but still ..." and couldn`t turn into SSJ2 against kibito Gohan was still angry because of videl.
I always figured Gohan rarely using SSJ2 after fighting Cell was because he was just barely ABLE to enter that form…..he had to really power up hard and use a lot of effort to enter a form he SHOULD have no problem entering by the Buu saga. His lack of training made him weaker and barely able to do the transformation…..lol I have always been a fan of the Mystic/Ultimate form, but I hate how it was seemingly unearned….I guess that was supposed to be his latent potential….but wtf? Makes no sense in a lot of ways….
Mystic makes perfect sense and was earned. The problem is all the training happened basically off screen. Its no different than the hyperbolic time chamber.
Gohan has zero issues with it. Against Kabito, he straight up says "do you wanna see SSj, or do you want the next level?" as if it's something he can just turn on at any time. If it was something he could only do then, it wouldn't make sense, Videl already had the bean, Gohan was fine.
Yeah. You can see the difference from when Gohan easily goes back into SS2 against Super Perfect Cell, vs how much he struggles to go into it against Kibito.
One of the best examples of Toriyama's forgetfulness for me was in battle of gods. My mans forgot what color 18s hair was and thought she was supposed to have purple hair!!!
I say its ssj2 because I noticed when he goes into it his facial expression change drastically like you can really even tell when he fought broly in the second one when he transformed his face went mad serious and that’s how I can tell because he’s normally kinda laid back
And also when ion know if people don’t realize this but if vegeta trains in his base form and that form increases in power then his ss1 would multiply that so he could catch up to gohan without reaching a new form by simply by training constantly and it was a 7 year skip so in that time vegetas base got stronger but he never reached ssj2
There's no way vegeta could surpass ssj2 gohan with just his ssj1 form.Vegeta did unlock ssj2 but he was weaker then goku's ssj2 so to close the gap he let himself being controlled by babidy and that's how ssj2 vegeta became as strong as ssj2 goku.
@@Gimas96even with plus power of babidi control he still weaker than Goku. Even Goku dont lost his stamina because of the soul of other world, Vegeta still having damaged more than Goku, so I got the winner is Goku
Fans: You can clearly differentiate SSJ1 and SSJ2 because normally, there is a hair there and in SSJ2, that one single hair is gone. Toriyama: Wait, was SSJ2 the super long hair one where I forgot to draw eyebrows? Fans: Where is Launch? Toriyama: WHO is Launch?
When Gohan goes SSJ2 for Kibito he confidently _offers_ to do so beforehand. This implies that it is something he can do at will, not just when he is angry. While anger was the SSJ2 trigger the first time, afterwards being angry simply means that he will be more powerful regardless of his SSJ level.
ever since i was little i liked the idea that gohan went ssj2 but the form was suppressed and weaker because of ptsd from getting his energy stolen at the tournament kind of like a mental block
I'm glad you mentioned the auras and the Manga. I've found over the years thst a LOT of debate stems from basically Toei art direction and filler not really bothering with aura consistency, but Toriyama was actually pretty on point with conveying this. That's why the "Goku's BEEN using Kaioken" moment against Freeza is different. If you haven't paid attention in the Manga, you get there and then flip back and notice that... Yep, while he isn't yelling it out and making a big show... He's had that rough jagged Kaioken aura a few times already. In the anime they kind of invent an invisible/stealth Kaioken aura by showing earlier moments but adding the aura in to show he'd been briefly using it.
He was definitely ssj2. And it’s not ambiguous whether dabura was equal to perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell Goku was in the afterlife still sensing Gohan and Cells energy so he knows how powerful SPC was. So when he made that statement he was definitely talking about SPC. Also remember SSJ Gohan was getting bullied by regular perfect cell who was STILL holding back and adult Gohan was weaker than that, so does it really make sense for a WEAKER AND RUSTY ssj Gohan to be fighting relative to a PC/SPC level foe? And IF Dabura was holding back it was not by much at all as we see him being exhausted and winded during the fight.
Everything's correct, except for your claim Goku could sense Super Perfect Cell's power from the afterlife. Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo couldn't sense Frieza's power from the afterlife, either. Piccolo was quite shocked about Frieza's ki when he arrived on Namek.
@@undyingsoul3949 we see in the manga Goku is using King Kai to see and sense the battle. And tells him to fire a Kamehameha just like Cell. Gohan says he’s lost half his ki from his injury but Goku tells him that he still has the power to win. And Goku was confident as hell saying that so he wasn’t just trying to encourage Gohan with empty words he was telling the truth. Even later in the clash. Gohan tells him that he can’t do it. But Goku who is still sensing the battle tells him he’s still not going all out because he’s afraid he’ll destroy the earth and not to worry because the dragon balls can fix it. Goku wouldn’t be saying all this if he didn’t know Gohans power in comparison to Cells.
If gohan was super saiyan 2 then he was a pretty weakened version of it compared to the tournament. His aura is reduced to regular super saiyan and he’s lost his sparks
Since you mention tenkaichi 3 there’s something interesting you forgot. In budokai tenkaichi 3 in the dragon history mode it states that gohan never went ssj2 after the world tournament for unknown reasons. You can check it by going to adult ssj2 gohans bio in the game.
I think he turned ssj2 half way through the fight when he says round two. He got hit with a bunch of rocks from dabura and he looks like he transforms again right after that's when I think he goes ssj2
I agree with him being most likely just Super Saiyan, at least in the manga this much is clear from the lack of sparks. The anime, however, seems to think Gohan should be a Super Saiyan 2 based on how both Gohan and the narrator state Gohan is going all out. There's anime production sketches showing Gohan in the Dabura fight labeled as "Super Saiyan B", and the same label was used for Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, and SSJ2 Gohan in the World Tournament. Furthermore, we have 2 separate statements from the Daizenshuu guidebooks. Daizenshuu 2, a guidebook strictly for the manga, states the last time Gohan goes SSJ2 is at the World Tournament. Daizenshuu 7, which was a guidebook for all Dragon Ball media (manga, anime, movies, etc.), state Gohan used SSJ2 against Dabura. Since this guidebook factored in the anime, it seems to me that Gohan was definitely a SSJ in the manga, but the anime staff thought he was a SSJ2 and redid the scene based on their interpretation.
with the manga giving evidence to how gohan wasn't ssj2 and showing goku and vegeta in the forms i'd like to think that gohan can use ssj2 but it's probably too exhausting for him to use like how goku and vegeta used it in their fight due to him not training in times of peace
They really needed to make SSJ2 more distinct visually. Would’ve been cool to do something like make SS2 hair to be like Broly’s highlighter yellow/greenish color to help.
Or rather he should have never gave gohan the yamcha special. He should have kept his cell hair just like in that older gohan design he had for the buu saga before he changed it. It was cell gohan hair but shorter. It was perfect
Dabura was fighting at a level that surpassed Super Perfect Cell to the point Goku retracted his earlier statement about Dabura being easy or around Cell's level, saying his Magic makes him even stronger/trickier to deal with than he had originally thought. If Gohan was not at SSJ2, he wouldn't be able to hang with a foe like that.
Noce video and editing! Subbed!! Please do more dragon ball content. The only other topic thst ive seen debated so heavily was the super buu vs kid buu debate. Perhaps that one could be next?
I would always assume Gohan was ssj1 the entire time but when he tried to destroy Buus capsule he turned ssj2 and remained there until he got bodied. Also depending on scaling it literally doesnt matter considering who he fights. You could make the argument Dabura was holding back literally the entire time until fighting Buu.
From an in-universe perspective, I think fighting sense is the most consistent explanation. Gohan, from the Boo arc on, has been notorious for getting rusty and needing to regain his fighting sense or instincts, to the extent that, in recent works, he's been unable to go Ultimate without first doing so. I'm of the belief that the same applies to Super Saiyan 2. This is based primarily on material over the past decade rather than the manga up to 1995, but perhaps losing his fighting sense forces Gohan to rely on intense anger to achieve forms he could access more easily when he was not rusty. For instance, during Freeza's return, Gohan stated that he believed he could turn into a Super Saiyan, with no mention of SS2 or Ultimate. With intense anger, perhaps SS2 could have been achieved, but the circumstances were not quite right to facilitate it. Likewise, perhaps a well-trained Gohan during the same time period could have gone SS2 or even Ultimate against Freeza, forcing him to transform before Goku and Vegeta arrived.
“Gohan’s power is FULL THROTTLE!” That was some ending narration when Gohan unveils his super saiyan power to Dabura, not sure how anyone can think he wasn’t SSJ2 in the anime
answer: toriyama's design of gohan was still going through development. remember that he only JUST created high school gohan. we see by aura and lightning that gohan is clearly NOT in ss2. and he can't have forgotten, because he literally showed lightning ss2 gohan in the tournament, and lightning goku/vegeta right after gohan's fight with dabura. so while gohan could and SHOULD have gone ss2...he just...never did. also, considering how mssj goku and mssj gohan were still near perfect cell, and considering how SUPER perfect cell lost to 50% ss2 gohan, I think ANY version of cell is closer to ssj rather than ss2, therefore so is dabura.
@@GrubKiller436 the only "circumstance" is vegeta distracting him for a second. That is viable, but it basically still means full power cell did in fact lost to 50% ss2 kid gohan. if you want a compromise I can say full power cell loses to 60% gohan.
@@GrubKiller436 ??? I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics bro. The author literally nerfed gohan to half strength JUST so that the fight could be close.
@@najeebshah. yes that narratively makes more sense. But I need the definitively spikier hair, 1 bang, and electricity. Otherwise, then id be calling ssj3 an ssj2 since visual cues dnt matter 🥹
I disagree Goku just stated Dabura was around the same power as cell usually when they reference a persons power in Dragon Ball it’s in regards to when they were at their strongest. Why would goku not be referring to super perfect cell instead of the weaker perfect cell? Why would goku refer to a weaker cell? He would of likely made a distinction otherwise, but he doesn’t. Gohan had access to SSJ2 we could see that from the tournament, why fight him as an SSJ2 when he can go further?
I still remember that back in the dbz manga and anime ssj1 hair was a lot more "fluffy", it wasn't until ssj2 where the hair actually got a lot spikier
Yes the Z sword scene does matter for this, because I really doubt Gohan was supposed to be in SSJ1 when he was lifting it cause many Kaioshins tried and couldn't do it. Shin was the weakest of the kaioshins and according to "El manga legendario" he was equal to SSJ Goku from the Cell games. I think you should look mostly the hair not the lighting, he had SSJ2 hair against Dabura and in the Z sword, the lighting just symbolizes strenght, even Cell had it, the absence of lighting could mean that he wasn't as strong as before as a SSJ2.
@@UchihaTobito In "El Manga Legendario", a guidebook made by Bird Studio (Toriyama's studio), so it's maybe the most "canon" guidebook that exists, but it's only available in Spanish and French.
Oh lol I thought you were just describing the manga as "legendario". I plan to address the various guidebooks more in future videos, but my goal to discover what the original source material implies, regardless of guidebooks
@@UchihaTobito Yeah, in my first comment when I said that I think Gohan was in SSJ2 against Dabura, I was completely ignoring the Daizenshuu. People take the Daizenshuu as canon and perfect just because of Toriyama's note, when in reality it's just official, not canon, and it isn't 100% right, like for example it states that Goku at the beggining of DB was only twice as strong as the average human lol, when he already could lift cars. But overall it's a great encyclopedia.
In a similar scenario, in Broly's Second Coming, Gohan is SS2 in that movie. The animations were misplaced and makes it seem he is in SS. Otherwise, when the world is in stake and he is the only powerful fighter left and around at the moment, why would he hold back?
@@Alvin-ue8vzHe sure did lol. But given he was matched against BROLY, he at least did better than the first time around, although he didn't significantly kept up with his training but has SS2 at least.
@@R.R.R.712 That's true! "Teen" Gohan from the cell saga didn't stand a chance, although the movie was not canon. And I imagine that Broly in Second Coming is stronger than before due to zenkai boost and hibernation! Lol
In that fight he was definitely a Super Saiyan 2 didn’t You see that part during the fight when he challenged Dabura to start using his real power and right before he did that he turned up the flames of his aura and it created a shockwave so powerful it completely shattered one of the rock pinnacles that was in front of him at SS1 You never see that type of force being displayed after a power up.
Just like in Budokai 2-3-Infinite World. The intro was correct, however in the game there's no real difference between SS and SS2 for Gohan. Vegeta has a similar issue. In Kakarot Gohan is shown to have 2 hair bangs in his powered up state both in SS and SS2. Even the created characters for the Saiyans, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are the same just adding lightning bolts in XenoVerse and XenoVerse 2. Even Budokai-2-3 Goku's hair bangs are shown much thinner but the back of the hair is the same. [SH Figuarts did this too]
I think maybe they wanted Vegeta and Goku SS2 to be the main focus. And not have a third SS2 (Gohan) be a distraction from it? He could have been an SS2 in power but they were saving that more for Vegeta and Goku to be focused on them having SS2
@@GxGNoir You mean when Gohan got his potential unleashed? “Mystic” isn’t a form, his power boost is from his inner potential being fully awakened by the Old Kai.
I am curious as to why you didn't mention the Daizenshuu, which most consider 100% canon. It outright says Gohan used ssj2 in Daizenshuu 7. Case closed
The purpose of the video is to explore why there is confusion in the first place by analyzing what the primary sources actually say, since everything else is a second-hand interpretation. I'm personally not that interested in the "official" answer, especially considering the Daizenshuu weren't actually written by Toriyama. And a lot of things Toriyama wrote are contradictory, it's just fun to try to make those contradictory pieces fit together. But I think it's totally fine for fans to defer to the Daizenshuu. In future videos I do plan to reference the Daizenshuu to highlight other points of view.
in dragon ball z kakarot, majin buu saga and afterward, when you transform into super saiyan you have the bang and the wispy hair but when you go super saiyan 2 the wispy hair is gone and only the bang remains. also in said game, when gohan fights dabura and buu he automatically transforms into super saiyan 1 rather than 2
I heard one dragon ball youtuber suggest that Gohan in the Buu saga wasn’t capable of fighting in his Ssj2 form which makes a little more sense. Toriyama wouldn’t forget to give Gohan the aura and lightning while simultaneously giving Vegeta and Goku the Ssj 2 aura
His hair shows ssj2 , i remember games and forums saying he was ssj2 but with his lack of training,thats what brought about no lightning, that and or the writer forgot the lightning
@@TheRoxas314 no in the Tenkaichi games it states otherwise atleast in the first or second one , I believe in the third it states that he hasn't used that transformation since the tournament or fighting dabura , in fact Tenkaichi one has you fight dabura as a ssj2 so what are you talking about when you say all Tenkaichi ?
@@blissheyoka6540 So tenkaichi 2 (and 3?) say he hasn't used the transformation since the tournament. Kakarot uses ssj1. Guess I missed the first Tenkaichi game as reference my bad. Still believe he was only ssj1 though as the manga obviously depicts him that way.
@@TheRoxas314 in the story mode you still fight as ssj2 plus his hair is definitely ssj2 and after the tournament quote could mean after dabura as well ,he's definitely ssj2 though
I always thought it was that Gohan couldn't use it in a practical sense. Like he could use it for bursts or to flex but not for extended conflicts due to him being lazy. So it fits for when he shows it off to Kabito and for when he tries to blitz buu's cocoon.
It's more that Gohan fights with emotion, and though Gohan can go SSj2, he can't get as angry as he was when he fought Cell. Gohan against Cell was like SSj2 stacked with a rage boost, against Dabura he was just SSj2 without the rage boost. If you want numbers, you could say that normally, SSj2 falls the metric of 2x SSj like the guidebooks say, but when Gohan fought Cell, his SSj2 was 2x SSj with another 2x boost on top of that for the rage. This is why when SPC shot Gohan's arms, and Gohans power was cut in half, Gohan wasn't just at SSj level.
We should also take into account that around this time Toriyama was slowly forgetting Super Saiyans 1 and 2 are separate transformations from eachother thanks to him making not that many differences between the forms in the Buu Saga, so when Super Saiyan 3 was coming along man immediately man thought it was SSJ2, if I recall
I think narratively it makes much more sense for Gohan to be SSJ2 against Dabura. For Gohan to be SSJ, I guess the assumption made is that Dabura is only about as strong Perfect Cell. However, that still shouldn't make any sense. Gohan at this time is stated to be weaker than Teen Gohan, and SSJ Gohan was weaker than Perfect Cell, he needed to go SSJ2 to beat Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan in the Buu Saga should be significantly weaker than Dabura in that case, but they were roughly equals in the fight. To add on, while Saiyans do hold back, but only when their opponents are clearly no match for then. It doesn't make sense Gohan would hold back for so long, even after Dabura was clearly a match for him and had gotten close to severely injuring him on multiple occasions. What makes more sense is that Dabura is equivalent to Super Perfect Cell in power (it also just makes more sense for Goku and Vegeta to be referring to Cell's power as they last saw him, not before that). Super Perfect Cell was a bit weaker than SSJ2 Teen Gohan at their peaks, as Gohan only struggle against Cell in their beam struggle because he had one working arm. Therefore, it makes narrative sense if Dabura was as strong as Super Perfect Cell, and Gohan was weaker than he was in the Cell Saga, than SSJ2 Gohan would be roughly equal to Dabura.
It's simple, Gohan went SSJ2 and Dabra was Super Perfect Cell Level because that is the last form that both Vegeta and Goku sensed during that time with Goku stating Gohan still has enough power to beat cell. So simply put, Dabra was somewhat over SPC and Gohan full output was lower then when he fougt SPC which puts both of them around similar levels which is why Gohan was putting up a fight against Dabra
If in the manga sparks are consistent, if they aren't here then it means he wasn't SSJ2 or Tori forgot. But he couldn't forget here, he made the sparks when Gohan was at the tournament and just made sparks for Goku and Vegeta fight which is really memorable. He couldn't forget about putting the sparks for Dabura the whole time. So Gohan was clearly SSJ1 for me
Bro he didn’t have any electricity around the form. There’s not much more to debate. Gohan’s hair shape isn’t valid at all because he doesn’t have a consistent hairstyle anywhere through the Buu saga.
In that fight he was definitely a Super Saiyan 2 didn’t You see that part during the fight when he challenged Dabura to start using his real power and right before he did that he turned up the flames of his aura and it created a shockwave so powerful it completely shattered one of the rock pinnacles that was in front of him at SS1 You never see that type of force being displayed after a power up.
He was SSJ 2. People need to stop the “if there’s no electricity it’s SSJ 1” logic cause it’s not always present even with SSJ 3. You can even tell by the hair and the bangs so it’s not difficult if you really pay attention. If Gohan is rusty and fighting a character that can compete with perfect cell/SPC it would make more sense that he’s using his strongest form to fight that type of powerful foe as he was barely keeping up with Dabura.
@07:31 i think the story would made more sense in the aspect that end of Cell Games Goku was considered by Cell to be stronger than Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo combined. And by his own admission, he was way stronger then Vegeta. A similar moment of confidence was shown in the Piccolo Daimao arc, after PD used the dragon balls to gain back his youth and power. Piccolo Daimao said something along the lines of "the one that beat you to a pulp has now become even more overwhelmingly powerful", i am pretty sure Son Goku had the same confidence, knowing that he was that much ahead of Vegeta and with 7 years of training he would be even more. Than Vegeta let Babidi's magic do the trick and caught up to him tremendously to the point that they were equal in power. Also, the argument that Toriyama is forgetful is very solid. At the end of the sayians arc, both Vegeta and Son Gohan lost their tails, never to be grown again, while Son Goku's kept growing all the way to the 23rd tenkaichi budokai where they gave a half baked excuse like "kami wished my tail away" or something. Also, Trunks and Son Goten were straight up born without tails.
He went Super Saiyan 1 against Dabura, because he was trying to fight like his Father and Vegeta fought against their opponents, holding back and going "Step-by-step" as needed. Goku tried to defeat Yakon in his base-form, Vegeta defeated Pui-Pui in his base-form, and Gohan tried to fight Dabura only using his base-form; Gohan also participated in Rock-Paper-Scissors with Vegeta and Goku to see who would get to fight each opponent, because Gohan was TRYING to be like them. So LOGICALLY, it makes sense that when his base-form was getting slapped by Dabura, Gohan said, "Okay, we'll take it to the next level, but I'm still gonna hold back so Dad and Vegeta don't think I had to max-out to beat this guy, who looks like he'd be easy for either of them."
Take into account how long it takes him to transform into SSJ2 in front of Kibito. Then, as you said, he wasn't restored to full power until the sensu bean before Buu. He may not have been ABLE to quickly hop into SSJ2 against Dabura, so was just fighting at a heightened SSJ level. Then, he goes SSJ2 against Buu because he's had his chi restored. Though, it could obviously be just a style thing, to have the SSJ2 transformation take so long in the tourney. Or it could be to show that he really has to dig for it now. He needs the trigger to dive into it quickly, or else he really has to focus to pull it off. With no time to dig against Dabura and not being at max power, he could have stalled and not been able to pull it off. Full power plus the (potential) anger trigger against Buu, and he can pop right into it.
It's not possible for a version of Gohan that is explicitly said to be much weaker than his younger self to be able to go toe to toe with someone who is supposed to be as strong as any version of Perfect Cell unless said version of Gohan is tapping into SSJ2, since even Kid Gohan in SSJ was struggling to keep up with Cell and would have had to have fallen back on a rage amp to compete. Also we're shown that Gohan can go SSJ2 in the tournament and while he was drained, he was healed by Kibito and felt stronger than ever.
For me, he was two the whole time but it was just weaker with him gradually trying to regain control over it. Even if he was healed, the attack on him could've also left some unknown trauma on him. Everyone forgets how tuff Dabura was fighting Fat Buu, Gohan was KO'd before Supreme Kai and Dabura.
He was ssj2. The whole narrative changes and it makes no logical sense. Honestly anything else is just cope from gohan stans who can’t accept he couldn’t handle Dabs.
One thing that alewys baffled me was how many people defended Gohan's desire to not train during peace times. Personally I think this is extremely selfish and short sighted for a supposedly smart individual. Gohan exists in a universe where threats can appear capable of destroying the entire planet in a single attack. I believe the first example we got of this was in DBZ Movie 2 with Doctor Wheelo about to fire at the Earth from high orbit. So with that in mind Gohan is one of a small number of people who could have the power to protect Earth from threats of that level. So it is his responsibility to be as strong as he possibly can be so that he is as prepared as possible for when the next threat inevitably comes along. If not for Goku and Vegeta Gohan would have lost to Freeza and let the planet die too. We saw all the way back in Dragon Ball that even Kid Goku with a power level of less than 180 single handedly destroyed most of the red ribbon army, meaning no army on Earth could stop even the likes of Nappa. So those who have the power have a responsibility to maintain it for the good of their planet and Universe. Gohan should have one shot Dabura here, like Vegeta said. He should have been knocking on the door of Super Saiyan 3.
To be fair in this case Frieza was the uncontested ruler of the Universe, the only thing he feared was the legend of the Super Saiyan and Frieza had nothing on Gohan after Cell so I can't blame him for believing he could deal with any threat. Also he could probably deal with the situation, part of the blame lies on the Supreme Kai that underestimated how Gohan could fill half of Buu's energy and restrained him giving Bibidi a a free 50% charge, the other part lies on Vegeta for "Muh Ego" and Goku for trying not to hurt Vegeta's feeling instead of simply going SSJ3 and oneshot him
Mentioning the Dr Wheelo movie does not support your argument at all cause it isn't canon to Toriyama's story, that was the worst example I've ever seen.
The aura is the best thing to go by imo, since Goku and Vegeta are depicted with different auras and with lightning as opposed to Gohan. Gohan's hair in his base form at the tournament was drawn differently than at the beginning of the Buu arc, already looking a lot like the SSJ2 style. Gohan never went SSJ2 again after the tournament, even if it doesn't make sense. It's like an instant retcon. Maybe Toriyama needed a little extra tension: "can Gohan regain his powers?" which is enhanced by Vegeta and Goku's answer "maybe if he gets mad again". Maybe he even forgot Gohan used SSJ2 at the tournament, who knows.
The electricity from the tournament was Toriyama showing the potency of Gohan's Rage from when Videl got beat, from that point every time he transformed it got lower until he pulled the Z-Sword. When Gohan pulled the Sword that SSJ2 is the strongest its ever been even stronger than when he killed cell because it draws out the weilders power to Max.
since you mention budokai tenkaichi 3, I have to mention another game, Dokkan Battle, this version of gohan against dabura is said: Great Saiyaman Super Saiyan, the art is that raging gohan before launch the super kamehameha
Nah, if that were the case, then he would've said that. All we got from that fight from Goku and Vegeta was that he was rusty. Also, he didn't even go SSJ2 when he tried to stop Buu from hatching. I don't know what the heck Toriyama was doing.
gohan was ssj during Videl vs Spopo, ssj2 during kibito, ssj2 during dabura, ssj2 during attack on majin buu. Even in movie 10 Gohan turned ssj2 and was missing lighting aura around him. I think it was just implying that Gohan was not at his strongest in the form but there was absolutely no reason for him to not be ssj2 in those few instances
your kind of comment is literally why this video was made. the video goes through what you said WORD FOR WORD and decidedly there's no concrete answer bro.
@@faetalize The point is that Gohan was not a ssj after world tournament transformation because he faced enemies on same level as Cell and above. There was just no way for him to stay in super saiyan form and fight an equal fight of someone greater than super saiyan. Also there are actual sketches of ssj/ssj2 Gohan for movie 10 which is why we can tell that ssj2 Gohan was fighting Broly and not SSJ gohan
He had lightning + hair difference as an SSJ2 in Bojack Unbound. I feel they could've better implied he was an SSJ2 in Broly : Second Coming, if he was an SSJ2 @@uqwqooe
@@blaykay-4797 like I said there is a sketch for ssj/ssj2 Gohan movie 10 where you can tell the difference. For some reason there is also vegeta ssj2 fighting janemba and hirudegarn while looking like ssj (lack of electricity and defined hair)
Gohan was always in SS1 in that fight. It’s dumb to leave it ambiguous. He could transform at the tournament because he cared much more about Videl than he did about those civilians Vegeta killed. You have to take into consideration the fact that if you don’t master a new transformation, then you can’t access that easily unless you are extremely angry. Danger does not equal anger. Gohan didn’t train during the 7 year gap. So, he could only access SS2 when he is emotionally affected by the situation. Dabura and Babibi didn’t do anything that extreme that would directly trigger Gohan’s ultimate rage. Therefore, he was always in SS1. Gohan’s lack of training made him so weak to the point he could only access SS2 with an extreme amount of rage. In that case, it only makes sense that Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell
My head-canon for Buu saga Gohan was that while he was still capable of SS2 at his angriest, he couldn't really maintain it because (as vegeta stated) he was not the fighter he used to be and had made no effort to improve or even sustain the power he had in the Cell saga. AND because he genuinely doesn't like being that angry. I also figured since they eventually moved him away from SS transformations altogether and stick to that to this day, I feel this was Toiryama's subtle way of saying that any Super Saiyan form would never really be optimal for Gohan because he's a different kind of person than Goku/Vegeta are. Now anytime Gohan uses SS, it's just a warm-up for his Ultimate form.
I think Gohan was SSJ1. During the tournament, his hair grew a bit longer compared to early Buu arc, since some time had passed as they were training for the tournament. Gohan went SSJ2 because he still had pent up anger over Videl getting beaten up. Even the fac5 that Gohan said he’d take it to the next level seemed a bit out of character for Gohan, since he isn’t normally one to show off. All he needed was to go SSJ1, but for some reason he wanted to go even higher. Why? Because he’s still angry and needs to let off some steam, imo. That helped him easily go into the form. Vs Dabura and Buu, I think he calmed down too much, and due to his rust, he couldn’t easily access SSJ2 without enough anger. Yes, he saw Vegeta kill plenty of people, but it was Vegeta. I think it was hard for Gohan to know where to direct his anger to for that moment, as he doesn’t know to what extent Vegeta was being controlled. And of course, it wasn’t as personal either. Videl was personal, someone he loved specifically. Yeah I’m sure he was mad at the people dying, but Videl being hurt and almost dying was obviously something that set him off a lot more, because he knows and loves her. Vs Buu, you pointed out that he says he wasn’t angry enough. I think that was the main context clue. He needs to be mad to go SSJ2. Toriyama was straight up drawing sparks for Goku and Vegeta, and none for Gohan. He wasn’t forgetting at that time, Gohan just didn’t have the anger he needed. Yeah he was confidant in his speed, but maybe he was simply just underestimating Buu because he looked fat or slow, or was just trying to reassure himself out of desperation. Either way, I think most clues point towards a rusty Gohan that needs enough anger to access SSJ2 at the time. He probably didn’t have this issue anymore after the Z Sword training, but then he got Ultimate and it didn’t matter anymore. In DBS, remember that Gohan was depicted as growing weak and rusty, which caused him to lose Ultimate and saying he could only go SSJ. As in SSJ1. He flat out lost access to forms due to his lack of training. Only later while training with Piccolo do we see him finally use SSJ2 and Ultimate again, because he brought it out of him. This mirrors what happened to him in the Buu saga, where he was having trouble “getting angry” enough. The only exception was at the tournament, which again, must’ve been because of Videl. Overall, yeah Toriyama made it vague, weird and confusing, so much so that even the games are clearly confused about it and show different takes on it that contradict other games, but I think most signs point to SSJ1 Gohan. Last note, yes, he was definitely SSJ2 vs Broly. His hair style was pre-tournament, so he still had the 2 bang SSJ1, which clearly differentiated it from SSJ2 when he fought Broly 1 on 1. It didn’t have sparks, but a lot of movies at that time didn’t show sparks for SSJ2. I know this makes it more confusing, but the 2nd Broly movie and the Buu saga are different situations. People are right about the Broly movie (he is SSJ2 there) and wrong about about the Buu saga (he is SSJ1 everywhere but the tournament scene), and that’s because of the hair style changes.
If Gohan was SSJ vs Dabura then Dabura would have folded him in any capacity. Dabura is compared to Cell. Which Cell isn’t even up for debate, it’s SPC as DB has never once compared a new enemy with a previous ones weaker form. “Oh yeah Cell is stronger than Freeza Goku how do you feel?” “Well it’s just first form Freeza so no big deal.” Gohan dropped enough so his SSJ2 was on par with SPC or someone relative. If he was SSJ any version of OC would have one beaten him up but Babadi actively complains that there’s no damage being done to Gohan. He was definitively SSJ2.
Regular Perfect Cell at max power would beat kid Ssj1 Gohan. Regular Perfect Cell also folds high school Ssj1 Gohan (who is weaker). If you think Dabura is on the same level as high school Ssj1 Gohan (when it's stated he's on Cell's level) then I don't know what to tell you
Кино
I don't think Vegeta was saying Gohan's SS2 form was weaker, I think he was saying Gohan was weaker, period. His base form is weaker and that makes all his forms weaker since they're multipliers.
i think following the introduction of SSJ2 as a general form not specific to Gohan, the more logical interpretation of Gohan v Cell is that Gohan was perfecting the rage boost he used to get as a child, as a means of enhancing his power all the way up to a new SSJ level. after doing that, he obviously still knew how to reach that SSJ level, but the specific means by which he achieved it may have been forgotten. ie, his perfected rage boost, which also would’ve helped make his SSJ2 form extra strong, was no longer present when fighting Dabura.
I agree
IF Gohan wasn't using SSj2, Vegeta would have pointed it out, as would Goku, when Vegeta was mocking Gohan during the Dabura fight, it wouldn't have meant a damn thing if Gohan was holding SSj2 back for no reason.
@@ZenKrioexactly, the whole narrative changes. It’s ridiculous to claim gohan was ssj1
@@famalam943this is has already been settled by toryiama. Gohan was ssj2 and he was a little weaker than we he fought cell. He was still stronger than cell at full power power but he was extremely rusty.
Dabura had the power level of super perfect cell so this is why he struggled
Person 1: Gohan was SS1!
Person 2: Gohan was SS2!
Vegeta: You're both wrong, Gohan was a b*tch
W
W
Royal blue isn't even a real powerup. Vegeta is too short to be important.
Vegeta wouldn't be alive had Gohan not saved his life vs Cell
@@TheGreatOne93 we talking about the Dabura fight tho
I always thought he went super Saiyan 2 when I was younger. I would recreate the fight in Dragonball Raging Blast 2, but one day I just turned super Saiyan 1 on accident and there was some dialogue between him and Dabura. This shifted my opinion that he was Super Saiyan 1 the whole time.
In RB2's Gohan Bio in Museum Mode, it references Daizenshuu 2 by saying he didn't use SS2 again after the Kibito Fight.
Your younger merks you now
Well guides can be wrong
@elijahwatjen9839 games aren't cannon so that's just headcannon 😊
@@elijahwatjen9839Not really
Vegeta DID casually say he could go SSJ2. Going Majin didn’t magically give him SSJ2, it made his SSJ2 as strong as Goku’s. Goku was just surprised at how strong Vegeta was
Nope, he never outright said it. He simply says he’s stronger than Goku after he knows Goku mastered SSJ. Which could be IMPLIED that he’s reached SSJ2 but in what world would Buu Saga Vegeta not immediately transform just to rub it in Goku’s face the moment he got a chance? This is the same Vegeta who has a cocky nature whenever he encounters any enemy even if they’re kicking his ass.
So it’s basically neither confirmed nor denied and we’ll literally never know because of Toriyamas passing.
@@TheSCPStudio When Goku transforms in to SSJ2 against Yakkon, Vegeta thinks to himself something along the lines of (gotta paraphrase, don't have my manga on me rn) "So Kakarot's got that form too" or something like that. This could be taken as one of two things, either that Goku's also got that form like Gohan does, or that Goku's also got that form like Vegeta does. Using your own logic of "how cocky Vegeta is," considering how upset and flabbergasted he was with how strong Goku was in the Cell Saga after he and Gohan mastered SSJ1, he would not be so calm when he's thinking in his head, where no one else can hear him, if he saw Goku transform into a form that he himself couldn't transform into. Especially since Goku had been dead for 7 years and Vegeta didn't even know that Goku could train during those 7 years. So presumably be trained to surpass Cell Saga Goku and Gohan, which would naturally include getting SSJ2.
I have to disagree. Vegeta never went SSJ2 against Kid Buu, if he could do it at will, why didn't he. I think the Majin possession just gave Vegeta power equal to a SSJ2, which would explain the sparks, but would also explain why he couldn't go SSJ2 against Kid Buu.
@JubeiKibagamiFez you didn't read the manga did you. He goes ssj 2 after telling goku to charge his energy
@@hydratoons5906 No. I don't have the money to invest in all those issues. I wish I did, though. I would buy the whole series in a heartbeat.
I think the idea here is that even in super Saiyan 2 with his Aura is less intense to indicate that he is weaker than he was as a preteen
This
Very good point! I haven't thought about that.
Aura should be the same in ss2 regardless if he isn't as strong.
@@Nestle245 you do realize I seen the video he said that the aura would change to spiky when they were powered up so the opposite should be true if they are physically weaker than they were before. also this is toriyama it could just be as everyone has assumed an error
Aura may exist during a transformation but it is not required.
They always train to NOT need an aura because that's power leaking off.
7:30 I don't think Goku was surprised that Vegeta could turn SSJ2. He was likely surprised at how far Vegeta's power had grown to match his own SSJ2 power. As a side note, Vegeta could already turn SSJ2 before Majin. He hinted at this when Goku was fighting that monster that ate light (Yakon?), being the only one who noticed that Goku briefly turned SSJ2 to overwhelm Yakon. This thought bubble is only shown in the manga.
Damn, you beat me to it.
Plis the fact Vegeta thought he closed the gap between him and Gohan. I don't care if Gohan was slacking in peace time, Vegeta isn;t catching SSJ2 Gohan in SSJ1. So obviously he had SSJ2.
no man there goku realized that vegeta already had super saiyan 2. but He still let himself be mentally controlled by babidi to reduce the gap between them
@@ExMaulExTeam not a bad thought. but I think we're all overestimating Toriyama here.
Yeah Vegeta found out and already had Super Saiyan 2
I always figured that Gohan could TRANSFORM into SS2, but he probably just couldn’t sustain it in a fight like he used to since he didn’t train in that form; so he just used SS1 because he was used to it.
It's actually make a lot of sense, Buu saga gohan's SS2 is like Buu saga goku's SS3 🤔
Goku wasn't surprised that Vegeta could go SSj2, i think you're miss-interpreting that scene in the manga. He's surprised at how STRONG Vegeta is as a SSJ, since its comparable to his own.
Majin Vegeta and Goku should already be equals as a SSJ, no? If Goku knew Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2, he shouldn't be surprised at his strength if SSJ Goku = SSJ Majin Vegeta.
Vegeta only realized Goku could go SSJ2 from watching his fight with Yakon, but Goku never saw Vegeta transform before Vegeta went Majin. Even though Vegeta had unlocked SSJ2 already, it doesn't seem like Goku knew it.
@@simonkaggwanjala1459 Goku was surprised at how strong SS2 vegeta is because Vegeta trained on earth, meanwhile Goku had the benefit of Otherworld which was straight up a better place to train and get better results. Goku isn't surprised by the power, but the fact that Vegeta achieved the same Base strength as Goku while he was alive.
@@seksaouiabderraouf2531 In other words, Goku was surprised at Vegeta's grind, not the result. That sound about right?
@@seksaouiabderraouf2531 It's actually both. Goku didn't know vegeta had ssj2 the manga makes it clear. In the manga goku says he's gonna finish the fight quickly so he went straight to ssj2 thinking vegeta didn't have it. He also stated mid battle that he was surprised that vegeta in ssj2 still could match him despite the hard training he did in the afterlife.
@@aperson3723 no he went ssj2 thinking his ssj2 was superior
I notice SSJ 1, 2, and 3 have different Auras:
- SSJ1 is like raging fire
- SSJ2 is like sparks or lightning
- SSJ3 is like an energy ball (in Buu saga that is)
Auras mean nothing in the anime. They’re just visual tools. Which is fine, but don’t think too hard about the meaning because of it.
In the manga they dictate the control over energy or a form. Auras are the energy leaking from the individual. Once they master a form, there should be no aura.
@@TheSCPStudiowhich of course, explains “Super Saiyan Full Power”, or better known as “Super Saiyan Fourth Grade”. But even in the manga Super Saiyan is still seen with aura waaaay after the Buu Saga. And the DBS Manga introduces a form called “Perfected Blue” and I’m pretty sure blue aura appears after the transformation
If someone has played the Budokai Tenkaichi 2 there were informations for each character and their transformation. I recall that in the information about SSJ2 Adult Gohan said that it was only used against Kibito and for some inexplicable reason he never used it again. Which means he was just a regular SSJ against Dabura
I always identified the SSJ2 by the sharp hair and thunder sparks
Same
bruh did u even watch the video. the aura and hairstyles are not consistent so it’s not that easy
@@dabear7822 for me it is
I always take it that if there's electricity, it's ssj2 and up
doesn't work for the anime, and toriyama can't have forgotten for the manga because he was doing goku and vegeta's fight at the same time, which means that against all narrative consistency and integrity, he had to have been ssj1. then again toriyama's no stranger to bad writing, case and point the entire arc this debate sprung from
@@dankerbelljust so you know, bad writing is not synonymous with your personal opinion. You may not like it but it’s not bad writing. Bad writing is George Lucas throwing Star Wars together with no plans for the future while simultaneously starting at Episode 4. Making the brother and sister a love interest until he decided to randomly make them siblings 2 movies later. There’s nothing like that that’s comparable in the Buu Arc of DBZ.
@@TheSCPStudionah bad writing is king kai not telling future trunks and gohan where new namek was
Or the inconsistency of gohans age we all like db but you’re just not looking at it objectively there’s plenty of points in db that doesn’t add up
@@dankerbellno that doesnt mean he was ssj1
your breakdown of this content is very impressive and very easy to understand, I love that you have cited your content, keep up the good work pal you got yourself a sub :)
Gohan probably couldn't risk getting angry incase he became out of control like he did against Cell. Instead of finishing Cell, he dragged things out which cost him his father and that probably left a mental scar on him.
That’s not correct, he it’s not that he was scared it’s that he couldn’t tap into that level of anger. He had become accustomed to the peace. Also keep in mind he was in his late teens at this point, so he was likely able to control his emotions better than when he was a child.
What lol 😂😂🤣
You fans love to get wild with your theories
He did get his father killed pulling a Vegeta, that's crazy.
That makes no sense. Had he stayed angry enough during the entire fight against Cell, he would have finished him pretty quickly.
He's extremely angry at Cell, thus he is out of control, dragging out the fight? You mean he was so angry he preferred tormenting Cell to killing him?
Otherwise, that logic makes no sense.
This is a fantastic video. You presented the problem, all the difficulties in getting to a conclusive solution, mentioned how the anime was inconsistent and why that is. Defaulted to using the manga as the source but even then mentioned how it can be inconsistent too. Presented both sides with arguments for each and gave an informed opinion at the end.
This is quality content.
This is such an interesting and well produced video. Most DBZ video creators let their love of the show get the best of them, resulting in more fanboying and less analyzing. But this is great! Please, more.
I wish we could have power like this on real life
I think for Gohan it is more difficult to turn into SSJ2 because of his gentle nature and he still needs anger to reach this form because he didn't train to completly control SSJ2. That's why he said against boo and dabura. "I am angry but still ..." and couldn`t turn into SSJ2 against kibito Gohan was still angry because of videl.
Ssj1 also required rage to break through and use though so that's a tough one.
@@AlexHiddleson-ip7cjbut he mastered SSJ. SSJ2? Not so much
It is Ss2 because of bangs or bang solo.
The lightning is part time, not always.
Also Z Broly fought this same Ss2 Gohan.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I have been wondering on this topic for a long while. Thank you for making the video!
I always figured Gohan rarely using SSJ2 after fighting Cell was because he was just barely ABLE to enter that form…..he had to really power up hard and use a lot of effort to enter a form he SHOULD have no problem entering by the Buu saga. His lack of training made him weaker and barely able to do the transformation…..lol I have always been a fan of the Mystic/Ultimate form, but I hate how it was seemingly unearned….I guess that was supposed to be his latent potential….but wtf? Makes no sense in a lot of ways….
Mystic makes perfect sense and was earned. The problem is all the training happened basically off screen. Its no different than the hyperbolic time chamber.
Gohan has zero issues with it. Against Kabito, he straight up says "do you wanna see SSj, or do you want the next level?" as if it's something he can just turn on at any time. If it was something he could only do then, it wouldn't make sense, Videl already had the bean, Gohan was fine.
@@ZenKriocame to say the same exact thing
In the manga gohan went from base form to ssj2 in like 2 panels, it's incorrect to think he was barely able to get to that form during the buu saga.
Yeah. You can see the difference from when Gohan easily goes back into SS2 against Super Perfect Cell, vs how much he struggles to go into it against Kibito.
One of the best examples of Toriyama's forgetfulness for me was in battle of gods. My mans forgot what color 18s hair was and thought she was supposed to have purple hair!!!
I thought Toriyama doesnt do colouring? Besides cover pages
@@fgvcosmic6752 sure but that doesn't mean he conceives everything in black and white.
@@innocuousalias6632then how do you know he thought she had purple hair…
@@neexy9669 behind the scenes video of battle of gods. But I don't think you really wanted to know. I think you just wanted to play this stupid game.
I say its ssj2 because I noticed when he goes into it his facial expression change drastically like you can really even tell when he fought broly in the second one when he transformed his face went mad serious and that’s how I can tell because he’s normally kinda laid back
And also when ion know if people don’t realize this but if vegeta trains in his base form and that form increases in power then his ss1 would multiply that so he could catch up to gohan without reaching a new form by simply by training constantly and it was a 7 year skip so in that time vegetas base got stronger but he never reached ssj2
He did that when he was the golden fighter as well his face looked extremely serious but he hadn't used ss2 til Kabito shows up
There's no way vegeta could surpass ssj2 gohan with just his ssj1 form.Vegeta did unlock ssj2 but he was weaker then goku's ssj2 so to close the gap he let himself being controlled by babidy and that's how ssj2 vegeta became as strong as ssj2 goku.
@@Gimas96even with plus power of babidi control he still weaker than Goku. Even Goku dont lost his stamina because of the soul of other world, Vegeta still having damaged more than Goku, so I got the winner is Goku
@@clothes4060Goku was losing stamina
Fans: You can clearly differentiate SSJ1 and SSJ2 because normally, there is a hair there and in SSJ2, that one single hair is gone.
Toriyama: Wait, was SSJ2 the super long hair one where I forgot to draw eyebrows?
Fans: Where is Launch?
Toriyama: WHO is Launch?
I'll defend Toriyama, SSJ2 is a barely recognisable form lol
When Gohan goes SSJ2 for Kibito he confidently _offers_ to do so beforehand. This implies that it is something he can do at will, not just when he is angry. While anger was the SSJ2 trigger the first time, afterwards being angry simply means that he will be more powerful regardless of his SSJ level.
ever since i was little i liked the idea that gohan went ssj2 but the form was suppressed and weaker because of ptsd from getting his energy stolen at the tournament kind of like a mental block
Good video I hope you have more Dragon Ball content in store
Good vid, the aura stuff was good
I'm glad you mentioned the auras and the Manga. I've found over the years thst a LOT of debate stems from basically Toei art direction and filler not really bothering with aura consistency, but Toriyama was actually pretty on point with conveying this. That's why the "Goku's BEEN using Kaioken" moment against Freeza is different. If you haven't paid attention in the Manga, you get there and then flip back and notice that... Yep, while he isn't yelling it out and making a big show... He's had that rough jagged Kaioken aura a few times already. In the anime they kind of invent an invisible/stealth Kaioken aura by showing earlier moments but adding the aura in to show he'd been briefly using it.
He was definitely ssj2. And it’s not ambiguous whether dabura was equal to perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell Goku was in the afterlife still sensing Gohan and Cells energy so he knows how powerful SPC was. So when he made that statement he was definitely talking about SPC. Also remember SSJ Gohan was getting bullied by regular perfect cell who was STILL holding back and adult Gohan was weaker than that, so does it really make sense for a WEAKER AND RUSTY ssj Gohan to be fighting relative to a PC/SPC level foe? And IF Dabura was holding back it was not by much at all as we see him being exhausted and winded during the fight.
W, L, W, L 🤔
Everything's correct, except for your claim Goku could sense Super Perfect Cell's power from the afterlife. Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo couldn't sense Frieza's power from the afterlife, either. Piccolo was quite shocked about Frieza's ki when he arrived on Namek.
@@undyingsoul3949 we see in the manga Goku is using King Kai to see and sense the battle. And tells him to fire a Kamehameha just like Cell. Gohan says he’s lost half his ki from his injury but Goku tells him that he still has the power to win. And Goku was confident as hell saying that so he wasn’t just trying to encourage Gohan with empty words he was telling the truth. Even later in the clash. Gohan tells him that he can’t do it. But Goku who is still sensing the battle tells him he’s still not going all out because he’s afraid he’ll destroy the earth and not to worry because the dragon balls can fix it. Goku wouldn’t be saying all this if he didn’t know Gohans power in comparison to Cells.
If gohan was super saiyan 2 then he was a pretty weakened version of it compared to the tournament. His aura is reduced to regular super saiyan and he’s lost his sparks
@@billfox847 just an animation/artist error. Happens alot especially in the anime
Akira Toriyama in heaven: Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrd
lol
Gohan's Anger theme slowed and reverb in the background👏🔥💯
Since you mention tenkaichi 3 there’s something interesting you forgot. In budokai tenkaichi 3 in the dragon history mode it states that gohan never went ssj2 after the world tournament for unknown reasons. You can check it by going to adult ssj2 gohans bio in the game.
Yeah and fun fact most if not all the games depict Gohan as SSJ1 vs Dabura as well.
@@TheRoxas314yeah it does. I remember reading that information in Tenkaichi 2 as well.
I think he turned ssj2 half way through the fight when he says round two. He got hit with a bunch of rocks from dabura and he looks like he transforms again right after that's when I think he goes ssj2
Honestly, no one goes into further detail about answering these difficult dbz questions than you do. I'm impressed. Consider me a new subscriber.
I agree with him being most likely just Super Saiyan, at least in the manga this much is clear from the lack of sparks.
The anime, however, seems to think Gohan should be a Super Saiyan 2 based on how both Gohan and the narrator state Gohan is going all out. There's anime production sketches showing Gohan in the Dabura fight labeled as "Super Saiyan B", and the same label was used for Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, and SSJ2 Gohan in the World Tournament.
Furthermore, we have 2 separate statements from the Daizenshuu guidebooks. Daizenshuu 2, a guidebook strictly for the manga, states the last time Gohan goes SSJ2 is at the World Tournament. Daizenshuu 7, which was a guidebook for all Dragon Ball media (manga, anime, movies, etc.), state Gohan used SSJ2 against Dabura. Since this guidebook factored in the anime, it seems to me that Gohan was definitely a SSJ in the manga, but the anime staff thought he was a SSJ2 and redid the scene based on their interpretation.
with the manga giving evidence to how gohan wasn't ssj2 and showing goku and vegeta in the forms i'd like to think that gohan can use ssj2 but it's probably too exhausting for him to use like how goku and vegeta used it in their fight due to him not training in times of peace
That part about Gohan and Goku losing their aura when they come out of the time chamber blew my mind.
Loved the video, your channel popped up on my recommended, so I figured I would check it out.
They really needed to make SSJ2 more distinct visually. Would’ve been cool to do something like make SS2 hair to be like Broly’s highlighter yellow/greenish color to help.
Toriyama should've kept the fluffy SSJ hair from the Frieza and Android Saga and had SSJ2 be the spikey detailed hair.
@@jasonone8726 THIS. Absolutely
Or rather he should have never gave gohan the yamcha special. He should have kept his cell hair just like in that older gohan design he had for the buu saga before he changed it. It was cell gohan hair but shorter. It was perfect
Dabura was fighting at a level that surpassed Super Perfect Cell to the point Goku retracted his earlier statement about Dabura being easy or around Cell's level, saying his Magic makes him even stronger/trickier to deal with than he had originally thought.
If Gohan was not at SSJ2, he wouldn't be able to hang with a foe like that.
Noce video and editing! Subbed!! Please do more dragon ball content.
The only other topic thst ive seen debated so heavily was the super buu vs kid buu debate. Perhaps that one could be next?
It's not next, but it is in the queue!
I would always assume Gohan was ssj1 the entire time but when he tried to destroy Buus capsule he turned ssj2 and remained there until he got bodied. Also depending on scaling it literally doesnt matter considering who he fights. You could make the argument Dabura was holding back literally the entire time until fighting Buu.
From an in-universe perspective, I think fighting sense is the most consistent explanation. Gohan, from the Boo arc on, has been notorious for getting rusty and needing to regain his fighting sense or instincts, to the extent that, in recent works, he's been unable to go Ultimate without first doing so. I'm of the belief that the same applies to Super Saiyan 2. This is based primarily on material over the past decade rather than the manga up to 1995, but perhaps losing his fighting sense forces Gohan to rely on intense anger to achieve forms he could access more easily when he was not rusty. For instance, during Freeza's return, Gohan stated that he believed he could turn into a Super Saiyan, with no mention of SS2 or Ultimate. With intense anger, perhaps SS2 could have been achieved, but the circumstances were not quite right to facilitate it. Likewise, perhaps a well-trained Gohan during the same time period could have gone SS2 or even Ultimate against Freeza, forcing him to transform before Goku and Vegeta arrived.
After the cell arc. The animators completely forgot to animate ss2 90 percent of the time
This is about the manga also. He didn't have the sparks during the Dabura fight, plus he still had the white aura, which is SSJ1 in the manga.
“Gohan’s power is FULL THROTTLE!” That was some ending narration when Gohan unveils his super saiyan power to Dabura, not sure how anyone can think he wasn’t SSJ2 in the anime
In the immortal words of Team Four Star: "there's little zappy-zaps" 😂😂
answer: toriyama's design of gohan was still going through development. remember that he only JUST created high school gohan. we see by aura and lightning that gohan is clearly NOT in ss2. and he can't have forgotten, because he literally showed lightning ss2 gohan in the tournament, and lightning goku/vegeta right after gohan's fight with dabura.
so while gohan could and SHOULD have gone ss2...he just...never did.
also, considering how mssj goku and mssj gohan were still near perfect cell, and considering how SUPER perfect cell lost to 50% ss2 gohan, I think ANY version of cell is closer to ssj rather than ss2, therefore so is dabura.
That doesn't mean that Cell at full power lost to 50% Gohan. It just means that Gohan won that clash under specific circumstances.
@@GrubKiller436 the only "circumstance" is vegeta distracting him for a second. That is viable, but it basically still means full power cell did in fact lost to 50% ss2 kid gohan.
if you want a compromise I can say full power cell loses to 60% gohan.
@@asianpersuasion4901 He lost. Doesn't mean he's less powerful. We are talking about power levels. No need to play mental gymnastics.
@@GrubKiller436 ??? I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics bro. The author literally nerfed gohan to half strength JUST so that the fight could be close.
@@asianpersuasion4901 And then also nerfed Cell.
Why do you think Vegeta needed to be added in there?
I personally believe the Dabura comparison was referring to regular Perfect Cell, and that that was SSJ1 Gohan fighting Dabura.
W and L
Lol when thry say cell they obviously mean cell at his best and even if not ssj gohan wasn't enough
@@najeebshah. yes that narratively makes more sense. But I need the definitively spikier hair, 1 bang, and electricity. Otherwise, then id be calling ssj3 an ssj2 since visual cues dnt matter 🥹
I disagree Goku just stated Dabura was around the same power as cell usually when they reference a persons power in Dragon Ball it’s in regards to when they were at their strongest.
Why would goku not be referring to super perfect cell instead of the weaker perfect cell?
Why would goku refer to a weaker cell? He would of likely made a distinction otherwise, but he doesn’t.
Gohan had access to SSJ2 we could see that from the tournament, why fight him as an SSJ2 when he can go further?
Why would it be SSJ 1 Gohan if he’s rusty and fighting a character that can compete with perfect cell? It would make way more sense if he were 2…
I still remember that back in the dbz manga and anime ssj1 hair was a lot more "fluffy", it wasn't until ssj2 where the hair actually got a lot spikier
That “forever” hits hard now…
Yes the Z sword scene does matter for this, because I really doubt Gohan was supposed to be in SSJ1 when he was lifting it cause many Kaioshins tried and couldn't do it. Shin was the weakest of the kaioshins and according to "El manga legendario" he was equal to SSJ Goku from the Cell games. I think you should look mostly the hair not the lighting, he had SSJ2 hair against Dabura and in the Z sword, the lighting just symbolizes strenght, even Cell had it, the absence of lighting could mean that he wasn't as strong as before as a SSJ2.
Where does it say Shin is as strong as Cell Games Goku?
@@UchihaTobito In "El Manga Legendario", a guidebook made by Bird Studio (Toriyama's studio), so it's maybe the most "canon" guidebook that exists, but it's only available in Spanish and French.
@@UchihaTobito Also forgot to mention that the Daizenshuu says Gohan was in SSJ2 against Dabura.
Oh lol I thought you were just describing the manga as "legendario". I plan to address the various guidebooks more in future videos, but my goal to discover what the original source material implies, regardless of guidebooks
@@UchihaTobito Yeah, in my first comment when I said that I think Gohan was in SSJ2 against Dabura, I was completely ignoring the Daizenshuu. People take the Daizenshuu as canon and perfect just because of Toriyama's note, when in reality it's just official, not canon, and it isn't 100% right, like for example it states that Goku at the beggining of DB was only twice as strong as the average human lol, when he already could lift cars. But overall it's a great encyclopedia.
In a similar scenario, in Broly's Second Coming, Gohan is SS2 in that movie. The animations were misplaced and makes it seem he is in SS. Otherwise, when the world is in stake and he is the only powerful fighter left and around at the moment, why would he hold back?
Gohan got REKT
@@Alvin-ue8vzHe sure did lol. But given he was matched against BROLY, he at least did better than the first time around, although he didn't significantly kept up with his training but has SS2 at least.
@@R.R.R.712 That's true! "Teen" Gohan from the cell saga didn't stand a chance, although the movie was not canon. And I imagine that Broly in Second Coming is stronger than before due to zenkai boost and hibernation! Lol
@@R.R.R.712 Wrong, Gohan in this movie kept up with his training for seven years
In that fight he was definitely a Super Saiyan 2 didn’t You see that part during the fight when he challenged Dabura to start using his real power and right before he did that he turned up the flames of his aura and it created a shockwave so powerful it completely shattered one of the rock pinnacles that was in front of him at SS1 You never see that type of force being displayed after a power up.
fun fact:ssj2 goku is actually a messed up drawing of the ssj hair💀💀💀💀☠️
Just like in Budokai 2-3-Infinite World. The intro was correct, however in the game there's no real difference between SS and SS2 for Gohan. Vegeta has a similar issue. In Kakarot Gohan is shown to have 2 hair bangs in his powered up state both in SS and SS2. Even the created characters for the Saiyans, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are the same just adding lightning bolts in XenoVerse and XenoVerse 2. Even Budokai-2-3 Goku's hair bangs are shown much thinner but the back of the hair is the same. [SH Figuarts did this too]
SSJ 1 and 2 for Xenoverse CACs is a bad example since it's just a recolor, not even a separate hair.
True, and the fact that the lightning bolts was just for SS2 and nothing else. Talk about lazy!
I think maybe they wanted Vegeta and Goku SS2 to be the main focus. And not have a third SS2 (Gohan) be a distraction from it? He could have been an SS2 in power but they were saving that more for Vegeta and Goku to be focused on them having SS2
but then they made him the strongest z fighter again by far when he got mystic anyway
@@GxGNoir
You mean when Gohan got his potential unleashed? “Mystic” isn’t a form, his power boost is from his inner potential being fully awakened by the Old Kai.
@@bbrandumbb so why does he have to transform into it in super?
@@GxGNoir Super retconned it into a transformation; originally it was simply Gohan's full potential being brought out into his base form.
oh so its another case of super making everything less cool@@simonkaggwanjala1459
I always thought he never really recovered from having his power taken at the tournament. So when he fought fought Buu, he only had access to SSJ 1
On a side note I like how Goku's trident bangs for ss2 almost kind of forshadow the ssj3.
I am curious as to why you didn't mention the Daizenshuu, which most consider 100% canon. It outright says Gohan used ssj2 in Daizenshuu 7. Case closed
The purpose of the video is to explore why there is confusion in the first place by analyzing what the primary sources actually say, since everything else is a second-hand interpretation.
I'm personally not that interested in the "official" answer, especially considering the Daizenshuu weren't actually written by Toriyama. And a lot of things Toriyama wrote are contradictory, it's just fun to try to make those contradictory pieces fit together.
But I think it's totally fine for fans to defer to the Daizenshuu. In future videos I do plan to reference the Daizenshuu to highlight other points of view.
in dragon ball z kakarot, majin buu saga and afterward, when you transform into super saiyan you have the bang and the wispy hair but when you go super saiyan 2 the wispy hair is gone and only the bang remains. also in said game, when gohan fights dabura and buu he automatically transforms into super saiyan 1 rather than 2
I heard one dragon ball youtuber suggest that Gohan in the Buu saga wasn’t capable of fighting in his Ssj2 form which makes a little more sense. Toriyama wouldn’t forget to give Gohan the aura and lightning while simultaneously giving Vegeta and Goku the Ssj 2 aura
His hair shows ssj2 , i remember games and forums saying he was ssj2 but with his lack of training,thats what brought about no lightning, that and or the writer forgot the lightning
All the games depict him as Super saiyan 1 vs Dabura. From the tenkaichi series to Kakarot.
@@TheRoxas314 no in the Tenkaichi games it states otherwise atleast in the first or second one , I believe in the third it states that he hasn't used that transformation since the tournament or fighting dabura , in fact Tenkaichi one has you fight dabura as a ssj2 so what are you talking about when you say all Tenkaichi ?
@@blissheyoka6540 So tenkaichi 2 (and 3?) say he hasn't used the transformation since the tournament. Kakarot uses ssj1. Guess I missed the first Tenkaichi game as reference my bad. Still believe he was only ssj1 though as the manga obviously depicts him that way.
@@TheRoxas314 in the story mode you still fight as ssj2 plus his hair is definitely ssj2 and after the tournament quote could mean after dabura as well ,he's definitely ssj2 though
I always thought it was that Gohan couldn't use it in a practical sense. Like he could use it for bursts or to flex but not for extended conflicts due to him being lazy. So it fits for when he shows it off to Kabito and for when he tries to blitz buu's cocoon.
It's more that Gohan fights with emotion, and though Gohan can go SSj2, he can't get as angry as he was when he fought Cell. Gohan against Cell was like SSj2 stacked with a rage boost, against Dabura he was just SSj2 without the rage boost. If you want numbers, you could say that normally, SSj2 falls the metric of 2x SSj like the guidebooks say, but when Gohan fought Cell, his SSj2 was 2x SSj with another 2x boost on top of that for the rage. This is why when SPC shot Gohan's arms, and Gohans power was cut in half, Gohan wasn't just at SSj level.
What if Gohan knew that their energy was being harvested, and avoided ssj2 purposely.
9:25 oof that hit different now
We should also take into account that around this time Toriyama was slowly forgetting Super Saiyans 1 and 2 are separate transformations from eachother thanks to him making not that many differences between the forms in the Buu Saga, so when Super Saiyan 3 was coming along man immediately man thought it was SSJ2, if I recall
Nah that was way after the original series ended when he forgot. He said he remembered there were 3 when he started working on super
What do you mean, mere chapters apart Goku and Vegeta are depicted as SSJ2s while Gohan never had the auto again after the tournament.
In one of the Budokai games it states that Gohan used SSJ2 as a demonstration to Kabito & after that he never used it again for unknown reasons.
thanks for having (yes) in your video title i thought i needed to stay for a whole 10 minutes
I think narratively it makes much more sense for Gohan to be SSJ2 against Dabura.
For Gohan to be SSJ, I guess the assumption made is that Dabura is only about as strong Perfect Cell. However, that still shouldn't make any sense. Gohan at this time is stated to be weaker than Teen Gohan, and SSJ Gohan was weaker than Perfect Cell, he needed to go SSJ2 to beat Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan in the Buu Saga should be significantly weaker than Dabura in that case, but they were roughly equals in the fight.
To add on, while Saiyans do hold back, but only when their opponents are clearly no match for then. It doesn't make sense Gohan would hold back for so long, even after Dabura was clearly a match for him and had gotten close to severely injuring him on multiple occasions.
What makes more sense is that Dabura is equivalent to Super Perfect Cell in power (it also just makes more sense for Goku and Vegeta to be referring to Cell's power as they last saw him, not before that). Super Perfect Cell was a bit weaker than SSJ2 Teen Gohan at their peaks, as Gohan only struggle against Cell in their beam struggle because he had one working arm. Therefore, it makes narrative sense if Dabura was as strong as Super Perfect Cell, and Gohan was weaker than he was in the Cell Saga, than SSJ2 Gohan would be roughly equal to Dabura.
This better not be a Mandela effect
It's simple, Gohan went SSJ2 and Dabra was Super Perfect Cell Level because that is the last form that both Vegeta and Goku sensed during that time with Goku stating Gohan still has enough power to beat cell. So simply put, Dabra was somewhat over SPC and Gohan full output was lower then when he fougt SPC which puts both of them around similar levels which is why Gohan was putting up a fight against Dabra
If in the manga sparks are consistent, if they aren't here then it means he wasn't SSJ2 or Tori forgot.
But he couldn't forget here, he made the sparks when Gohan was at the tournament and just made sparks for Goku and Vegeta fight which is really memorable. He couldn't forget about putting the sparks for Dabura the whole time. So Gohan was clearly SSJ1 for me
Also, SSJ1 in the manga has a white aura, which he had during that Dabura fight.
Good time to bring this up but when adult gohan fought broly in the script he was ss2 the animators forgot the lightning
I was not expecting that half corpse at 6:36. That's way more brutal than normal for DBZ, at least for civilian casualties.
Bro he didn’t have any electricity around the form. There’s not much more to debate. Gohan’s hair shape isn’t valid at all because he doesn’t have a consistent hairstyle anywhere through the Buu saga.
In that fight he was definitely a Super Saiyan 2 didn’t You see that part during the fight when he challenged Dabura to start using his real power and right before he did that he turned up the flames of his aura and it created a shockwave so powerful it completely shattered one of the rock pinnacles that was in front of him at SS1 You never see that type of force being displayed after a power up.
He was SSJ 2. People need to stop the “if there’s no electricity it’s SSJ 1” logic cause it’s not always present even with SSJ 3. You can even tell by the hair and the bangs so it’s not difficult if you really pay attention. If Gohan is rusty and fighting a character that can compete with perfect cell/SPC it would make more sense that he’s using his strongest form to fight that type of powerful foe as he was barely keeping up with Dabura.
that's not a fact. the video shows that ss3 always has lightning in the manga
Nah vegeta is weaker and will always be weaker.
Not only the electricity, but SSJ1 in the manga has a white aura, which he had during the Dabura fight. Blame Toriyama for this confusion and debate.
@07:31 i think the story would made more sense in the aspect that end of Cell Games Goku was considered by Cell to be stronger than Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo combined. And by his own admission, he was way stronger then Vegeta. A similar moment of confidence was shown in the Piccolo Daimao arc, after PD used the dragon balls to gain back his youth and power. Piccolo Daimao said something along the lines of "the one that beat you to a pulp has now become even more overwhelmingly powerful", i am pretty sure Son Goku had the same confidence, knowing that he was that much ahead of Vegeta and with 7 years of training he would be even more. Than Vegeta let Babidi's magic do the trick and caught up to him tremendously to the point that they were equal in power.
Also, the argument that Toriyama is forgetful is very solid. At the end of the sayians arc, both Vegeta and Son Gohan lost their tails, never to be grown again, while Son Goku's kept growing all the way to the 23rd tenkaichi budokai where they gave a half baked excuse like "kami wished my tail away" or something. Also, Trunks and Son Goten were straight up born without tails.
Toryama must have some type of amnesia
He went Super Saiyan 1 against Dabura, because he was trying to fight like his Father and Vegeta fought against their opponents, holding back and going "Step-by-step" as needed. Goku tried to defeat Yakon in his base-form, Vegeta defeated Pui-Pui in his base-form, and Gohan tried to fight Dabura only using his base-form; Gohan also participated in Rock-Paper-Scissors with Vegeta and Goku to see who would get to fight each opponent, because Gohan was TRYING to be like them.
So LOGICALLY, it makes sense that when his base-form was getting slapped by Dabura, Gohan said, "Okay, we'll take it to the next level, but I'm still gonna hold back so Dad and Vegeta don't think I had to max-out to beat this guy, who looks like he'd be easy for either of them."
Take into account how long it takes him to transform into SSJ2 in front of Kibito. Then, as you said, he wasn't restored to full power until the sensu bean before Buu. He may not have been ABLE to quickly hop into SSJ2 against Dabura, so was just fighting at a heightened SSJ level. Then, he goes SSJ2 against Buu because he's had his chi restored.
Though, it could obviously be just a style thing, to have the SSJ2 transformation take so long in the tourney. Or it could be to show that he really has to dig for it now. He needs the trigger to dive into it quickly, or else he really has to focus to pull it off.
With no time to dig against Dabura and not being at max power, he could have stalled and not been able to pull it off. Full power plus the (potential) anger trigger against Buu, and he can pop right into it.
Toriyama himself doesn't even remember the distinction.
It's not possible for a version of Gohan that is explicitly said to be much weaker than his younger self to be able to go toe to toe with someone who is supposed to be as strong as any version of Perfect Cell unless said version of Gohan is tapping into SSJ2, since even Kid Gohan in SSJ was struggling to keep up with Cell and would have had to have fallen back on a rage amp to compete. Also we're shown that Gohan can go SSJ2 in the tournament and while he was drained, he was healed by Kibito and felt stronger than ever.
For me, he was two the whole time but it was just weaker with him gradually trying to regain control over it. Even if he was healed, the attack on him could've also left some unknown trauma on him. Everyone forgets how tuff Dabura was fighting Fat Buu, Gohan was KO'd before Supreme Kai and Dabura.
He was ssj2. The whole narrative changes and it makes no logical sense. Honestly anything else is just cope from gohan stans who can’t accept he couldn’t handle Dabs.
I can’t wait to see the gameplay for Budokai Tenkaichi 4
He transformed for sure
One thing that alewys baffled me was how many people defended Gohan's desire to not train during peace times. Personally I think this is extremely selfish and short sighted for a supposedly smart individual. Gohan exists in a universe where threats can appear capable of destroying the entire planet in a single attack. I believe the first example we got of this was in DBZ Movie 2 with Doctor Wheelo about to fire at the Earth from high orbit. So with that in mind Gohan is one of a small number of people who could have the power to protect Earth from threats of that level. So it is his responsibility to be as strong as he possibly can be so that he is as prepared as possible for when the next threat inevitably comes along. If not for Goku and Vegeta Gohan would have lost to Freeza and let the planet die too. We saw all the way back in Dragon Ball that even Kid Goku with a power level of less than 180 single handedly destroyed most of the red ribbon army, meaning no army on Earth could stop even the likes of Nappa. So those who have the power have a responsibility to maintain it for the good of their planet and Universe.
Gohan should have one shot Dabura here, like Vegeta said. He should have been knocking on the door of Super Saiyan 3.
To be fair in this case Frieza was the uncontested ruler of the Universe, the only thing he feared was the legend of the Super Saiyan and Frieza had nothing on Gohan after Cell so I can't blame him for believing he could deal with any threat.
Also he could probably deal with the situation, part of the blame lies on the Supreme Kai that underestimated how Gohan could fill half of Buu's energy and restrained him giving Bibidi a a free 50% charge, the other part lies on Vegeta for "Muh Ego" and Goku for trying not to hurt Vegeta's feeling instead of simply going SSJ3 and oneshot him
That's his entire character
His entire character is that he's not fight crazy like Goku or Vegeta, He's a human first
Mentioning the Dr Wheelo movie does not support your argument at all cause it isn't canon to Toriyama's story, that was the worst example I've ever seen.
The aura is the best thing to go by imo, since Goku and Vegeta are depicted with different auras and with lightning as opposed to Gohan. Gohan's hair in his base form at the tournament was drawn differently than at the beginning of the Buu arc, already looking a lot like the SSJ2 style.
Gohan never went SSJ2 again after the tournament, even if it doesn't make sense. It's like an instant retcon. Maybe Toriyama needed a little extra tension: "can Gohan regain his powers?" which is enhanced by Vegeta and Goku's answer "maybe if he gets mad again". Maybe he even forgot Gohan used SSJ2 at the tournament, who knows.
The electricity from the tournament was Toriyama showing the potency of Gohan's Rage from when Videl got beat, from that point every time he transformed it got lower until he pulled the Z-Sword. When Gohan pulled the Sword that SSJ2 is the strongest its ever been even stronger than when he killed cell because it draws out the weilders power to Max.
since you mention budokai tenkaichi 3, I have to mention another game, Dokkan Battle, this version of gohan against dabura is said: Great Saiyaman Super Saiyan, the art is that raging gohan before launch the super kamehameha
The way i like to look at it is that Gohan is opting not to go Super Saiyan 2 in an attempt to not wake up Buu faster.
Nah, if that were the case, then he would've said that. All we got from that fight from Goku and Vegeta was that he was rusty. Also, he didn't even go SSJ2 when he tried to stop Buu from hatching. I don't know what the heck Toriyama was doing.
He was clearly 2
I thought he was 16 years old
@@JWRDAT-li9go oh damn bro brain isn’t working
when hes ss2 u see the thunder around him i thought everyone knew that
God , finally someone talk about this
gohan was ssj during Videl vs Spopo, ssj2 during kibito, ssj2 during dabura, ssj2 during attack on majin buu. Even in movie 10 Gohan turned ssj2 and was missing lighting aura around him. I think it was just implying that Gohan was not at his strongest in the form but there was absolutely no reason for him to not be ssj2 in those few instances
your kind of comment is literally why this video was made. the video goes through what you said WORD FOR WORD and decidedly there's no concrete answer bro.
@@faetalize The point is that Gohan was not a ssj after world tournament transformation because he faced enemies on same level as Cell and above. There was just no way for him to stay in super saiyan form and fight an equal fight of someone greater than super saiyan. Also there are actual sketches of ssj/ssj2 Gohan for movie 10 which is why we can tell that ssj2 Gohan was fighting Broly and not SSJ gohan
He had lightning + hair difference as an SSJ2 in Bojack Unbound. I feel they could've better implied he was an SSJ2 in Broly : Second Coming, if he was an SSJ2 @@uqwqooe
@@blaykay-4797 like I said there is a sketch for ssj/ssj2 Gohan movie 10 where you can tell the difference. For some reason there is also vegeta ssj2 fighting janemba and hirudegarn while looking like ssj (lack of electricity and defined hair)
@@uqwqooei mean movie gohan never stopped training so using him as reference is outright flawed
Gohan was always in SS1 in that fight. It’s dumb to leave it ambiguous. He could transform at the tournament because he cared much more about Videl than he did about those civilians Vegeta killed. You have to take into consideration the fact that if you don’t master a new transformation, then you can’t access that easily unless you are extremely angry. Danger does not equal anger. Gohan didn’t train during the 7 year gap. So, he could only access SS2 when he is emotionally affected by the situation. Dabura and Babibi didn’t do anything that extreme that would directly trigger Gohan’s ultimate rage. Therefore, he was always in SS1. Gohan’s lack of training made him so weak to the point he could only access SS2 with an extreme amount of rage. In that case, it only makes sense that Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell
My thoughts exactly. It seems that we're in the minority though. People still think power scaling to be reliable in DBZ.
Toryama copletely forgot to draw his ssj2 aura. He even uses the form in the games.
My head-canon for Buu saga Gohan was that while he was still capable of SS2 at his angriest, he couldn't really maintain it because (as vegeta stated) he was not the fighter he used to be and had made no effort to improve or even sustain the power he had in the Cell saga. AND because he genuinely doesn't like being that angry.
I also figured since they eventually moved him away from SS transformations altogether and stick to that to this day, I feel this was Toiryama's subtle way of saying that any Super Saiyan form would never really be optimal for Gohan because he's a different kind of person than Goku/Vegeta are. Now anytime Gohan uses SS, it's just a warm-up for his Ultimate form.
I think Gohan was SSJ1. During the tournament, his hair grew a bit longer compared to early Buu arc, since some time had passed as they were training for the tournament. Gohan went SSJ2 because he still had pent up anger over Videl getting beaten up. Even the fac5 that Gohan said he’d take it to the next level seemed a bit out of character for Gohan, since he isn’t normally one to show off. All he needed was to go SSJ1, but for some reason he wanted to go even higher. Why? Because he’s still angry and needs to let off some steam, imo. That helped him easily go into the form.
Vs Dabura and Buu, I think he calmed down too much, and due to his rust, he couldn’t easily access SSJ2 without enough anger. Yes, he saw Vegeta kill plenty of people, but it was Vegeta. I think it was hard for Gohan to know where to direct his anger to for that moment, as he doesn’t know to what extent Vegeta was being controlled. And of course, it wasn’t as personal either. Videl was personal, someone he loved specifically. Yeah I’m sure he was mad at the people dying, but Videl being hurt and almost dying was obviously something that set him off a lot more, because he knows and loves her.
Vs Buu, you pointed out that he says he wasn’t angry enough. I think that was the main context clue. He needs to be mad to go SSJ2. Toriyama was straight up drawing sparks for Goku and Vegeta, and none for Gohan. He wasn’t forgetting at that time, Gohan just didn’t have the anger he needed. Yeah he was confidant in his speed, but maybe he was simply just underestimating Buu because he looked fat or slow, or was just trying to reassure himself out of desperation. Either way, I think most clues point towards a rusty Gohan that needs enough anger to access SSJ2 at the time. He probably didn’t have this issue anymore after the Z Sword training, but then he got Ultimate and it didn’t matter anymore.
In DBS, remember that Gohan was depicted as growing weak and rusty, which caused him to lose Ultimate and saying he could only go SSJ. As in SSJ1. He flat out lost access to forms due to his lack of training. Only later while training with Piccolo do we see him finally use SSJ2 and Ultimate again, because he brought it out of him. This mirrors what happened to him in the Buu saga, where he was having trouble “getting angry” enough. The only exception was at the tournament, which again, must’ve been because of Videl.
Overall, yeah Toriyama made it vague, weird and confusing, so much so that even the games are clearly confused about it and show different takes on it that contradict other games, but I think most signs point to SSJ1 Gohan.
Last note, yes, he was definitely SSJ2 vs Broly. His hair style was pre-tournament, so he still had the 2 bang SSJ1, which clearly differentiated it from SSJ2 when he fought Broly 1 on 1. It didn’t have sparks, but a lot of movies at that time didn’t show sparks for SSJ2. I know this makes it more confusing, but the 2nd Broly movie and the Buu saga are different situations. People are right about the Broly movie (he is SSJ2 there) and wrong about about the Buu saga (he is SSJ1 everywhere but the tournament scene), and that’s because of the hair style changes.
If Gohan was SSJ vs Dabura then Dabura would have folded him in any capacity. Dabura is compared to Cell. Which Cell isn’t even up for debate, it’s SPC as DB has never once compared a new enemy with a previous ones weaker form.
“Oh yeah Cell is stronger than Freeza Goku how do you feel?”
“Well it’s just first form Freeza so no big deal.”
Gohan dropped enough so his SSJ2 was on par with SPC or someone relative. If he was SSJ any version of OC would have one beaten him up but Babadi actively complains that there’s no damage being done to Gohan. He was definitively SSJ2.
This comment made some logical, understandable sense.
Meh, he started out as ss1 then went to 2 when it wasn’t enough
Also the vast majority of games including Kakarot have it as ss2
Regular Perfect Cell at max power would beat kid Ssj1 Gohan. Regular Perfect Cell also folds high school Ssj1 Gohan (who is weaker). If you think Dabura is on the same level as high school Ssj1 Gohan (when it's stated he's on Cell's level) then I don't know what to tell you