No, not instead of blaming the Church, but at the same time they blame the Church. I think Pope Benedict's attitude is appropriate: own up to the problem, and try to move forward, with blunt sincerity.
@sooperfukker Then how do you explain the celibacy of Paul--and of Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that those who are willing and able to become "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom" should do so?
The way children are treated brings tears to the eyes. Knowing that God the complete benevolence of God but wondering how these things can be allowed, I pray the following way. It helps to know that God is *never* mocked; and God will vindicate these children. ~ I pray for the suffering, especially children. Like boys and girls in danger of abortion. Refugees. hungry people. Children brought up without guidance to You. Lonely adults and children. *Children and adults enslaved,* *sometimes in extremely unspeakable evil ways.* All the unearned suffering people, O Lord, whom You strengthen and wipe away every tear. This helpless suffering is difficult to understand; but Your Perfect Compassionate Benevolence and Providence has a reason with one that unearned suffering is joined with Jesus Christ's Passion. And we are Raised with Him. war no more, pain no more, You wipe away every tear.... ~
@thepomegranate Friend, I'm not denying any of that and neither is the Pope! That was the whole point of his using the image of the church with the dirty face. No one knows this darkness better than Pope Benedict. He's not proposing an either/or of church or culture. He's placing the real abuse of the church within the context of a wider cultural problem.
I think we've lived in a generation that doesn't know how to hate the sin, and love the sinner. For example, it's become a sin in and of itself to judge the wrong action that someone commits, especially if they don't know that it's wrong. We need to return to truthfully and fearlessly setting people free from self destruction, and do it out of true Love. It's hard to imagine returning to that, because we've lost truth, allowing faults has too long been the norm.
thank you fr. I am a Catholic and fervently longs to be a cleric. My focus is not majorly on the scandal as on the root cause. it stems form a deep moral corruption which is a result of the decline in the up and down way of thinking to a more relativistic and horizontal mode. I support just punishment to the abusers but let it be reformative rather than anger based and biased and cruel punishment just because some one is a priest. perversion can eat into any one and the best solution is not to clammer loudly the problem as the media does but to wake the slumbering self to look up to Christ the raised bronze serpent for healing of the self and the entire church. heretics don't aim at their own sanctity which distinguishes them from saints who say, the church is corrupt because I am corrupt and take up the cross to carry on Christ's redemptive work.
1 Corinthians chapter 7 talks about this in more detail. Celibacy is encouraged "but because of immorality, it is better to marry to eliminate the temptations", something along those lines, that it is better to marry than to burn with passion. I really believe by simply obeying this advice and not adding or subtracting from it, the Church can cut it's problems in half as it pertains to it's sex scandals.
@wordonfirevideo Fr. Barron, I am Orthodox and as we both well know confession in the Church is a vital Mystery (what you call sacrament). It is important for the Priest to be able to counsel those he is leading. How can a single man, who does not know what marriage is like, counsel a married couple? How can a single man counsel a family when he knows no family? Participating in these is a vital component in being able to counsel others.
I had to come back to this vid after I read a report about the Pope condemning the persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt only to see a slew of anti-Catholic rants in the comments section (some coming from self-proclaimed Catholics) about the sex abuse crisis. Fr. Barron puts it well, instead of blaming the CC, people need to look beyond the church to see that child abuse is more prevalent in our culture and hence this is a bigger, cultural problem.
I'm going to paste a scripture that I feel is the key element to the problems within the Catholic church. Regarding marriage and the command to abstain from it in order to be a priest I think does a great disservice to the priesthood, as I feel marriage should be the norm, while abstinence should be an option for those who want to serve the priesthood more fully. Man has a natural inclination to be with a companion, just as we have natural inclination toward food, lest we starve and die.
Reptentance on whose part? JPII? He's dead. His successor? Was constantly repenting on behalf of the Chuch for it (rewatch this video if you have to). The Curia and national bishops' conferences? Making huge strides a reform to protect youth. Me as a lay minister? I don't have anything to repent for in this case, but I've been a vocal support of those reforms for a while now. So, who is to repent?
There is always more interest in bashing Catholicism than in solving the problems of sexual attitudes in our culture. I think Peter Hitchens' arguments about the advancement of secularization spells out our problems plainly enough. There's a long road ahead.
Honestly, 2 reasons why the Pope made it that Priests could not marry. This is history and not so slight against the Church. 1st. Priests were having families, and instead of leaving their belongings to the Vatican, they were leaving them to their family. 2nd. During their travels to Spain, France, etc...Priests were fathering children in different places, outside of their own families.
Agreed. If we want to perform a real "root cause analysis" of the problem (and find a solution), we can't close our eyes to the points being made in this video. What is common to all people who abuse children? This should be our focus.
I read an article the other day about abuse that had gone in the Netherlands, and when the Priest or the victim went to the Dutch police, the Dutch police basically said we do not want to deal with this. This went beyond the Church. It's really, really disgusting. All we can do now is continue to help the victims, and continue the strict regulations for the Priesthood, and any remaining abusers need to be criminally convicted.
1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.
@jkranites There is a lot more, but the Pope pretty much said at that point no more(para-phrasing) Monasticism is encouraged, but it shouldn't have to be a required to be a Priest. The church made it that if you had a family as a Priest, you could not be anything but a Priest, not a Bishop, Cardinal, Archbishop..etc...
@xtrashed In another Tucson case, that of Msgr. Robert Trupia, the bishop wrote to then-Cardinal Ratzinger, who would become pope in 2005. Bishop Manuel Moreno called Trupia "a major risk factor to the children, adolescents and adults that he many have contact with." There is no indication in the case files that Ratzinger responded.
@itslifeisall Ummm... I think the Lord was speaking figuratively, friend. And Jesus and Paul willingly embraced the ideal of celibacy--as do Catholic priests today. Their example is altogether relevant to the topic at hand!
@@ewaldradavich7307 Scripture shows the opposite: 1 Cor 9: v5: "Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?"
I also agree that celibacy is a gift from God and those who receive this gift, of coarse, they will honor it not by their own strengths, but by the Holy spirit who dwells within the person. I just do not feel like a panel of cardinals or whoever gets together and "ordains" a priest, gives the gift of celibacy. Therefor not everyone who enters the priesthood has this gift, and so the personal struggle will ensue. Anyone who fights a fight on their own strength absent the grace of God, will fail!
Yes child abuse occurs in society, but when discovered the rapist is brought to justice. The Church decided instead to protect rapists, to give them protection and forgive them. They did not, and continue not to be open and transparent with authorities in having these rapists. Point to a single school or hospital that protected or haboured child rapists!
@3rosesred, I say post it on your page. Offer your sufferings and persecutions to Christ in prayer so that you might share in the good and holy Passion of Our Lord. On account of your sufferings we can rejoice knowing that we share in the easy yoke of love that Christ has laid down for us when He tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. Crosses by themselves cause sufferings, but a cross taken up for His sake is sheer joy because He draws us by suffering to Love, most blessed love.God bless
My point was that the practice of actively covering up abuse is not a distinctly Catholic issuse, as you said before that it was. As to the chronic patterns of transferring abusers, read the John Jay Report. Conducted independantly, it shows, quite clearly, that transfers were made after the accused abusive priest had completed a course of therapy to "cure" him; this was the prevailing psychology of the time, which we now know is false and have learned form those mistakes.
The Catholic religion, with his symbols and profound self-criticism, is so inspiring and beautiful that we can see it as a piece of Art ... and nothing else.
@spangularity I think you misunderstand: a straw man fallacy is a deliberate misrepresentation and oversimplification of an opponent's *argument*. I do not think that personal beliefs qualify as an argument. Therefore whatever you think FB is wrong about with atheists is a separate matter, and whatever he says in the video is not a straw man because he does not in fact have and opponent with an argument to oversimplify. Your test, however, does misrepresent his argument.Thats the disconnect here
@legolasegb Good points, but is being noncoital for periods of one's life a relevant comparison to a life void of physical affection? I would not say celibacy is responsible for sex abuse, but I wouldn't say it plays no part either. It obviously doesn't work for many, and with the conditions under which celibacy was instituted, the history of married priests, the lack of biblical injunction and the number of laity and clergy that question the requirement, it certainly warrants open discussion.
I don't know where I'd go if I left the Church--maybe to a different church that would cover things up longer? Or a place where there is no Pope Francis or Robert Barron or Peter or Paul or Augustine or Little Flower or Edith Stein or Kolbe? I can't. And I want to be a part of the body of Christ building the Church on earth with His grace. I have nowhere else to go. Love to all you commenters, people of good hearts who want the best.
when it comes to sexual abuse to any person especially children, the wheels of justice must put to work. it is not a time to make homilies, speeches, apologies etc abouth this issue. it is a time for action. A time to entrust the criminal case to our justice system, to a co-equal and independent branch of government, which is the Judiciary. a criminal case must be filed in a court of law against these criminals. the question is, "how many criminal cases were filed against these accused clerics?" Numbers won't lie. If the numbers are low, then there is an issue of cover-up. It is even diabolical for the church hierarchies not to exercise their prime duty to surrender these accused clerics to the civil authorities. Apostle John did not hesitate to put in writing that his colleague, Judas Iscariot, was a thief. Bishops then must surrender these accused clerics to the civil authorities so that a criminal case may be filed against these accused priests.
@xtrashed Documents reviewed by The Associated Press show that as a Vatican cardinal, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.
The attitude of many within the church since the Second Vatican Council has been completely distorted by the shepherds. The leaders have ignored the Ethos of Christ and the very necessity of the Salvation of souls. This is not at all a result of Vatican II, in my honest opinion as Pope Pius XII once said, the enemies within would become more visible. This was able after the Second Vatican Council with the changes in the world and the revolution against Christ. All in all there is hope in Christ
Father Barron, here is the difference. Child abuse is a mortal sin that may, with true repentence, be forgiven. Child abuse by a Priest of a child in his care is sin under Color of Christ. It is the single unforgiveable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If thousand of pederast priests were ordained, isn't the greatest failure of the Church one of Spiritual Discernment?Or did a manpower shortage & a generation of closeted homosexual men looking for a safe profession create a perfect storm?
@wordonfirevideo true fundamentalism speaking here...justifying ones disposition with scripture...self-serving of course.....ps: as you know "the" bible ...as historic document should be taken with a hand of salt
I agree that our moral relativism must have been key to the actions of the priests who abused kids. I agree that Hildegard's vision of the Church as soiled and torn is right, and that something was fundamentally flawed. What I don't understand is what Ratzinger said had to be changed. Was it just purging those priests who did such things? I revere Ratzinger but sometimes his arguments are difficult to follow.
cheetah100 makes this challenge: "Point to a single school or hospital that protected or haboured child rapists! " Try googling "sexual abuse cover up public schools" and you will learn a lot. For example CBS News has an interesting article titled: Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School?
I feel very strongly that the church has no moral authority to command individuals that they must abstain from marriage in order to be a priest, because scripture says quite differently. If priests lived married lives, then the craving and the lust and other issues that lend themselves to temptation when one is deprived of a very natural human need, then you can see where these problems can get magnified. But you are right this is a societal problem, not just a clergy problem.
@TheHardout2005 Of course it does! That was the idea. I am using it as an example. Perhaps you should look up the Wikipedia article on "irony". Yes, I understand the concept of the straw man fallacy. The good father uses it every time he attributes a particular belief set to the atheist, other than "having no belief in god." Rewatch the video. FB tells me all about what I must believe (as an atheist) when in fact he knows no such thing. Atheist = no belief in god. That's it. Fullstop.
@MrViobattie what have those people to dow with the abuse of children? this has nothing to do with the actuall content of this video *U_troll* btw: and those who do good things because of other faiths/reasons? are they less heroic because they are not of this denomination?
@spangularity Are you addressing Fr. Barron? If so, I think perhaps you should obtain a proper understanding of a straw man fallacy before before you accuse him of it. It is a misrepresentation of an opponent's argument, so that it can be refuted easily. I've noticed that atheists use it quite frequently. You can find the definition on wikipedia. What is it you are told you're thinking? You know that quick test you posited? I think that might even qualify as a straw man.
Around 1990 I heard a radio interview with the author of an article titled, "The Hands That Would Shape our Souls," which had recently been published in the Atlantic Monthly. The author recounted his experiences with Catholic seminarians, and I was more than a little surprised by his offhand remarks that made it clear that the seminaries were full of homosexuals. He seemed to take this as a matter of course. From this apparent fact, I cannot come to any other conclusion than that the priesthood, for some reason, attracts men who are sexually abnormal. That being the case, is it any wonder that there are priests sexually abusing children?
I like the commentary, but isn't it true that actions are right in some circumstances and wrong in others? If an alien came down to earth and told you to rape somebody, otherwise he would obliterate the planet, what would be the right thing to do?
The more I've thought about the bishop's comments, the more holes I see in the Pope Benedict's argument. Do priests engage in sexual tourism? Are they consumers of child pornography? Just how influenced are the clergy--who are supposed to take their cues from the church--by secular culture? I have read accounts of sexual abuse in the church that occurred in the 1940s and 1950s, when victims were evidently expected to keep their mouths shut about it. Human trafficking was much less common then than it is now, and child pornography was practically unknown. The Pope's argument rings hollow in my ears.
@itslifeisall It's not relevant at all. I've never had sex. It's a "requirement" since I'm single and Catholic. That fact does not compel me or push me to have sex with minors (or anyone else). There are times in marriage when you can't have sex with the Mrs. Not/never having sex doesn't compel someone to have sex.
@hugopelland Again do you understand what myth means? I have told you already and you do not seem to get it. It means a traditional story handed down orally to tell religious truth, NOT an unproven or untrue story. I could use the same argument for you are using a crutch, that you are not capable of reasoning. I could argue that God puts demands on you but you would rather ignore those demands, and live in a fantasy world where you make up the rules.
@hugopelland Catholicism is a historical religion, without it being based in history this religion would of died out not long after it originated. Didn't Voltaire say religion would be gone in 100 years? His house is now owned by the Geneva Bible society and religion is still here. Voltaire was wrong, and so are you my friend.
@wordonfirevideo Given the history of castration within early Christianity and Matthew's reference of eunuchs "so born from their mother's womb", the figurative nature of the reference is uncertain. More seriously, the sex abuse scandal results from priests breaking a vow of celibacy and often doing so in a perverse and abusive manner. Married priests were common into the sixth century, and the first pope was married. Celibate choice vs. continued requirement is relevant to the topic at hand!
@hugopelland Says the person you has seemed to have watched many of Father's Barron's videos and you just can't stop watching. Your an ignorant person to call me simple minded. Religion is not useless. Art can not answer anything about the origin of the universe, or moral values etc. By the way do you know the meaning of the word myth? It means a traditional story handed down orally to tell religious truth, NOT an unproven or untrue story.
@hugopelland You are ignorant. You said religious believers as simple minded, depending on a crutch. Some of the most intelligent people in the history of the world have been religious.
Thank you for this. I will be using this video as an example of the "Strawman Argument" when I am discussing logical fallacies. In addition - it is fascinating to be told what I am thinking, by a man who has never met me. Quick test: Mext time you're in a large group of people, ask them: "Hands up all those who approve of child porn." [pause] "Hmmmm", you'll think. That's a lot less than the pope and fr Barron say...
Most people aren't aware of the logical extension of the faulty value structures they hold; this is especially true since most people just take in and believe what their culture or gives them and professes to be immutably true.
Before Ratzinger became Pope he sent a letter to all the Bishops telling them to keep quiet about any child abuse they encountered. This makes him an accomplice to child-rape. He belongs in jail.
It's common knowledge. The letter was sent in May 2001. Lawyers acting for abuse victims called it a "clear obstruction of justice" (the Guardian newspaper)
Are you being sarcastic? When I say 'common knowledge I mean it was in all the papers and TV news. What more do you want - the guy cared more about the reputation of the church than about the well-being of children.
It is odd how this video mixes conservative Christian closed-mindedness with leftist political correctness and self-declared victimhood, but that is exactly what modern Catholicism represents. Relativism is positivist and scientific. Relativism does not preclude ethics. The politically correct wish that no race or religion be stereotyped is anti-scientific.
@wordonfirevideo Wow. I thought the Church only required celibacy. I didn't realize it included castration. As for Paul and Jesus, I'm not aware of any requirement imposed on them, so the example is really not relevant to the topic at hand.
Here's a tiny flame amdist these comments...keep in mind that the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a showcase for saints.
it is both
No, not instead of blaming the Church, but at the same time they blame the Church. I think Pope Benedict's attitude is appropriate: own up to the problem, and try to move forward, with blunt sincerity.
Bravo. Kudos to Pope Benedict XVI and to Fr Barron.
@sooperfukker Then how do you explain the celibacy of Paul--and of Jesus? Didn't Jesus say that those who are willing and able to become "eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom" should do so?
The way children are treated brings tears to the eyes.
Knowing that God the complete benevolence of God but wondering how these things can be allowed, I pray the following way. It helps to know that God is *never* mocked;
and God will vindicate these children.
~
I pray for the suffering, especially children. Like boys and girls
in danger of abortion. Refugees. hungry people. Children brought up without guidance
to You. Lonely adults and children. *Children and adults enslaved,*
*sometimes in extremely unspeakable evil ways.* All the unearned suffering
people, O Lord, whom You strengthen and wipe away every tear.
This helpless suffering is difficult to understand; but Your Perfect
Compassionate Benevolence and Providence has a reason with
one that unearned suffering is joined with Jesus Christ's Passion.
And we are Raised with Him.
war no more, pain no more, You wipe away every tear....
~
Excellent reflection, Father, as always.
STAY STRONG IN JESUS CHRIST.
God bless Papa Benny!!
@thepomegranate Friend, I'm not denying any of that and neither is the Pope! That was the whole point of his using the image of the church with the dirty face. No one knows this darkness better than Pope Benedict. He's not proposing an either/or of church or culture. He's placing the real abuse of the church within the context of a wider cultural problem.
I think we've lived in a generation that doesn't know how to hate the sin, and love the sinner. For example, it's become a sin in and of itself to judge the wrong action that someone commits, especially if they don't know that it's wrong. We need to return to truthfully and fearlessly setting people free from self destruction, and do it out of true Love. It's hard to imagine returning to that, because we've lost truth, allowing faults has too long been the norm.
thank you fr. I am a Catholic and fervently longs to be a cleric. My focus is not majorly on the scandal as on the root cause. it stems form a deep moral corruption which is a result of the decline in the up and down way of thinking to a more relativistic and horizontal mode. I support just punishment to the abusers but let it be reformative rather than anger based and biased and cruel punishment just because some one is a priest. perversion can eat into any one and the best solution is not to clammer loudly the problem as the media does but to wake the slumbering self to look up to Christ the raised bronze serpent for healing of the self and the entire church. heretics don't aim at their own sanctity which distinguishes them from saints who say, the church is corrupt because I am corrupt and take up the cross to carry on Christ's redemptive work.
1 Corinthians chapter 7 talks about this in more detail. Celibacy is encouraged "but because of immorality, it is better to marry to eliminate the temptations", something along those lines, that it is better to marry than to burn with passion. I really believe by simply obeying this advice and not adding or subtracting from it, the Church can cut it's problems in half as it pertains to it's sex scandals.
Peace.
Praise the Lord
@wordonfirevideo
Fr. Barron, I am Orthodox and as we both well know confession in the Church is a vital Mystery (what you call sacrament). It is important for the Priest to be able to counsel those he is leading. How can a single man, who does not know what marriage is like, counsel a married couple? How can a single man counsel a family when he knows no family? Participating in these is a vital component in being able to counsel others.
excellent assessment of the true problem, while still excepting responsibility for the in house problem. In end build a stronger Church.
I had to come back to this vid after I read a report about the Pope condemning the persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt only to see a slew of anti-Catholic rants in the comments section (some coming from self-proclaimed Catholics) about the sex abuse crisis. Fr. Barron puts it well, instead of blaming the CC, people need to look beyond the church to see that child abuse is more prevalent in our culture and hence this is a bigger, cultural problem.
excellent reflections. that said, the church still has not 'cleaned house' and ensured the perpetrators have been prosecuted legally.
I'm going to paste a scripture that I feel is the key element to the problems within the Catholic church. Regarding marriage and the command to abstain from it in order to be a priest I think does a great disservice to the priesthood, as I feel marriage should be the norm, while abstinence should be an option for those who want to serve the priesthood more fully. Man has a natural inclination to be with a companion, just as we have natural inclination toward food, lest we starve and die.
always great!
Reptentance on whose part? JPII? He's dead. His successor? Was constantly repenting on behalf of the Chuch for it (rewatch this video if you have to). The Curia and national bishops' conferences? Making huge strides a reform to protect youth. Me as a lay minister? I don't have anything to repent for in this case, but I've been a vocal support of those reforms for a while now.
So, who is to repent?
There is always more interest in bashing Catholicism than in solving the problems of sexual attitudes in our culture. I think Peter Hitchens' arguments about the advancement of secularization spells out our problems plainly enough. There's a long road ahead.
Honestly, 2 reasons why the Pope made it that Priests could not marry. This is history and not so slight against the Church.
1st. Priests were having families, and instead of leaving their belongings to the Vatican, they were leaving them to their family.
2nd. During their travels to Spain, France, etc...Priests were fathering children in different places, outside of their own families.
Agreed. If we want to perform a real "root cause analysis" of the problem (and find a solution), we can't close our eyes to the points being made in this video. What is common to all people who abuse children? This should be our focus.
@BalladoftheWindfish So, in my example, what do you think would be the right thing to do?
What exactly do you think how the Church has proclaimed Christ has affected the priestly abuse scandal?
I read an article the other day about abuse that had gone in the Netherlands, and when the Priest or the victim went to the Dutch police, the Dutch police basically said we do not want to deal with this. This went beyond the Church. It's really, really disgusting. All we can do now is continue to help the victims, and continue the strict regulations for the Priesthood, and any remaining abusers need to be criminally convicted.
1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.
So you know the pope so well could you review the show The Two Popes?
@jkranites
There is a lot more, but the Pope pretty much said at that point no more(para-phrasing)
Monasticism is encouraged, but it shouldn't have to be a required to be a Priest. The church made it that if you had a family as a Priest, you could not be anything but a Priest, not a Bishop, Cardinal, Archbishop..etc...
@xtrashed
In another Tucson case, that of Msgr. Robert Trupia, the bishop wrote to then-Cardinal Ratzinger, who would become pope in 2005. Bishop Manuel Moreno called Trupia "a major risk factor to the children, adolescents and adults that he many have contact with." There is no indication in the case files that Ratzinger responded.
What would he say about Pope Francis today????
@itslifeisall Ummm... I think the Lord was speaking figuratively, friend. And Jesus and Paul willingly embraced the ideal of celibacy--as do Catholic priests today. Their example is altogether relevant to the topic at hand!
Jesus never insisted on celibacy nor did Paul. show me the scripture
@@ewaldradavich7307 Scripture shows the opposite: 1 Cor 9: v5: "Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?"
@@marianweigh6411. I never promoted celibacy. Celibacy is a demand put on those who become rc priests. Celibacy is not scriptural.
I also agree that celibacy is a gift from God and those who receive this gift, of coarse, they will honor it not by their own strengths, but by the Holy spirit who dwells within the person. I just do not feel like a panel of cardinals or whoever gets together and "ordains" a priest, gives the gift of celibacy. Therefor not everyone who enters the priesthood has this gift, and so the personal struggle will ensue. Anyone who fights a fight on their own strength absent the grace of God, will fail!
Yes child abuse occurs in society, but when discovered the rapist is brought to justice. The Church decided instead to protect rapists, to give them protection and forgive them. They did not, and continue not to be open and transparent with authorities in having these rapists. Point to a single school or hospital that protected or haboured child rapists!
@hugopelland
Happy new year to you.
@3rosesred, I say post it on your page. Offer your sufferings and persecutions to Christ in prayer so that you might share in the good and holy Passion of Our Lord. On account of your sufferings we can rejoice knowing that we share in the easy yoke of love that Christ has laid down for us when He tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. Crosses by themselves cause sufferings, but a cross taken up for His sake is sheer joy because He draws us by suffering to Love, most blessed love.God bless
My point was that the practice of actively covering up abuse is not a distinctly Catholic issuse, as you said before that it was. As to the chronic patterns of transferring abusers, read the John Jay Report. Conducted independantly, it shows, quite clearly, that transfers were made after the accused abusive priest had completed a course of therapy to "cure" him; this was the prevailing psychology of the time, which we now know is false and have learned form those mistakes.
Okay, here's what I don't understand. How does the moral relativism of the secular world have anything to do with the clergy?
The Catholic religion, with his symbols and profound self-criticism, is so inspiring and beautiful that we can see it as a piece of Art
... and nothing else.
@spangularity I think you misunderstand: a straw man fallacy is a deliberate misrepresentation and oversimplification of an opponent's *argument*. I do not think that personal beliefs qualify as an argument. Therefore whatever you think FB is wrong about with atheists is a separate matter, and whatever he says in the video is not a straw man because he does not in fact have and opponent with an argument to oversimplify. Your test, however, does misrepresent his argument.Thats the disconnect here
@legolasegb Good points, but is being noncoital for periods of one's life a relevant comparison to a life void of physical affection? I would not say celibacy is responsible for sex abuse, but I wouldn't say it plays no part either. It obviously doesn't work for many, and with the conditions under which celibacy was instituted, the history of married priests, the lack of biblical injunction and the number of laity and clergy that question the requirement, it certainly warrants open discussion.
How did pope Benedict happen to leave the papacy?
I don't know where I'd go if I left the Church--maybe to a different church that would cover things up longer? Or a place where there is no Pope Francis or Robert Barron or Peter or Paul or Augustine or Little Flower or Edith Stein or Kolbe? I can't. And I want to be a part of the body of Christ building the Church on earth with His grace. I have nowhere else to go. Love to all you commenters, people of good hearts who want the best.
when it comes to sexual abuse to any person especially children, the wheels of justice must put to work. it is not a time to make homilies, speeches, apologies etc abouth this issue. it is a time for action. A time to entrust the criminal case to our justice system, to a co-equal and independent branch of government, which is the Judiciary. a criminal case must be filed in a court of law against these criminals. the question is, "how many criminal cases were filed against these accused clerics?" Numbers won't lie. If the numbers are low, then there is an issue of cover-up. It is even diabolical for the church hierarchies not to exercise their prime duty to surrender these accused clerics to the civil authorities. Apostle John did not hesitate to put in writing that his colleague, Judas Iscariot, was a thief. Bishops then must surrender these accused clerics to the civil authorities so that a criminal case may be filed against these accused priests.
@xtrashed Documents reviewed by The Associated Press show that as a Vatican cardinal, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.
The attitude of many within the church since the Second Vatican Council has been completely distorted by the shepherds. The leaders have ignored the Ethos of Christ and the very necessity of the Salvation of souls. This is not at all a result of Vatican II, in my honest opinion as Pope Pius XII once said, the enemies within would become more visible. This was able after the Second Vatican Council with the changes in the world and the revolution against Christ. All in all there is hope in Christ
@Jugglable You can't do evil that good might come of it, consequences be damned.
Father Barron, here is the difference. Child abuse is a mortal sin that may, with true repentence, be forgiven. Child abuse by a Priest of a child in his care is sin under Color of Christ. It is the single unforgiveable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
If thousand of pederast priests were ordained, isn't the greatest failure of the Church one of Spiritual Discernment?Or did a manpower shortage & a generation of closeted homosexual men looking for a safe profession create a perfect storm?
@wordonfirevideo true fundamentalism speaking here...justifying ones disposition with scripture...self-serving of course.....ps: as you know "the" bible ...as historic document should be taken with a hand of salt
@hugopelland
Art is not religion and religion is not art.
I agree that our moral relativism must have been key to the actions of the priests who abused kids. I agree that Hildegard's vision of the Church as soiled and torn is right, and that something was fundamentally flawed. What I don't understand is what Ratzinger said had to be changed. Was it just purging those priests who did such things? I revere Ratzinger but sometimes his arguments are difficult to follow.
cheetah100 makes this challenge: "Point to a single school or hospital that protected or haboured child rapists! "
Try googling "sexual abuse cover up public schools" and you will learn a lot. For example CBS News has an interesting article titled: Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School?
I feel very strongly that the church has no moral authority to command individuals that they must abstain from marriage in order to be a priest, because scripture says quite differently. If priests lived married lives, then the craving and the lust and other issues that lend themselves to temptation when one is deprived of a very natural human need, then you can see where these problems can get magnified. But you are right this is a societal problem, not just a clergy problem.
@TheHardout2005 Of course it does! That was the idea. I am using it as an example.
Perhaps you should look up the Wikipedia article on "irony".
Yes, I understand the concept of the straw man fallacy. The good father uses it every time he attributes a particular belief set to the atheist, other than "having no belief in god."
Rewatch the video. FB tells me all about what I must believe (as an atheist) when in fact he knows no such thing.
Atheist = no belief in god. That's it. Fullstop.
@MrViobattie what have those people to dow with the abuse of children? this has nothing to do with the actuall content of this video *U_troll*
btw: and those who do good things because of other faiths/reasons? are they less heroic because they are not of this denomination?
@spangularity Are you addressing Fr. Barron? If so, I think perhaps you should obtain a proper understanding of a straw man fallacy before before you accuse him of it. It is a misrepresentation of an opponent's argument, so that it can be refuted easily. I've noticed that atheists use it quite frequently. You can find the definition on wikipedia.
What is it you are told you're thinking?
You know that quick test you posited? I think that might even qualify as a straw man.
Around 1990 I heard a radio interview with the author of an article titled, "The Hands That Would Shape our Souls," which had recently been published in the Atlantic Monthly. The author recounted his experiences with Catholic seminarians, and I was more than a little surprised by his offhand remarks that made it clear that the seminaries were full of homosexuals. He seemed to take this as a matter of course. From this apparent fact, I cannot come to any other conclusion than that the priesthood, for some reason, attracts men who are sexually abnormal. That being the case, is it any wonder that there are priests sexually abusing children?
I like the commentary, but isn't it true that actions are right in some circumstances and wrong in others? If an alien came down to earth and told you to rape somebody, otherwise he would obliterate the planet, what would be the right thing to do?
The more I've thought about the bishop's comments, the more holes I see in the Pope Benedict's argument. Do priests engage in sexual tourism? Are they consumers of child pornography? Just how influenced are the clergy--who are supposed to take their cues from the church--by secular culture? I have read accounts of sexual abuse in the church that occurred in the 1940s and 1950s, when victims were evidently expected to keep their mouths shut about it. Human trafficking was much less common then than it is now, and child pornography was practically unknown. The Pope's argument rings hollow in my ears.
@itslifeisall It's not relevant at all. I've never had sex. It's a "requirement" since I'm single and Catholic. That fact does not compel me or push me to have sex with minors (or anyone else). There are times in marriage when you can't have sex with the Mrs. Not/never having sex doesn't compel someone to have sex.
@hugopelland
Again do you understand what myth means? I have told you already and you do not seem to get it. It means a traditional story handed down orally to tell religious truth, NOT an unproven or untrue story. I could use the same argument for you are using a crutch, that you are not capable of reasoning. I could argue that God puts demands on you but you would rather ignore those demands, and live in a fantasy world where you make up the rules.
@hugopelland
Catholicism is a historical religion, without it being based in history this religion would of died out not long after it originated.
Didn't Voltaire say religion would be gone in 100 years? His house is now owned by the Geneva Bible society and religion is still here. Voltaire was wrong, and so are you my friend.
@hugopelland
So stop your petty insular comments.
@wordonfirevideo Given the history of castration within early Christianity and Matthew's reference of eunuchs "so born from their mother's womb", the figurative nature of the reference is uncertain. More seriously, the sex abuse scandal results from priests breaking a vow of celibacy and often doing so in a perverse and abusive manner. Married priests were common into the sixth century, and the first pope was married. Celibate choice vs. continued requirement is relevant to the topic at hand!
@hugopelland
Says the person you has seemed to have watched many of Father's Barron's videos and you just can't stop watching. Your an ignorant person to call me simple minded. Religion is not useless.
Art can not answer anything about the origin of the universe, or moral values etc.
By the way do you know the meaning of the word myth? It means a traditional story handed down orally to tell religious truth, NOT an unproven or untrue story.
@hugopelland
You are ignorant. You said religious believers as simple minded, depending on a crutch. Some of the most intelligent people in the history of the world have been religious.
Thank you for this. I will be using this video as an example of the "Strawman Argument" when I am discussing logical fallacies.
In addition - it is fascinating to be told what I am thinking, by a man who has never met me.
Quick test: Mext time you're in a large group of people, ask them: "Hands up all those who approve of child porn." [pause] "Hmmmm", you'll think. That's a lot less than the pope and fr Barron say...
Most people aren't aware of the logical extension of the faulty value structures they hold; this is especially true since most people just take in and believe what their culture or gives them and professes to be immutably true.
Penn State. Your argument is invalid.
Before Ratzinger became Pope he sent a letter to all the Bishops telling them to keep quiet about any child abuse they encountered. This makes him an accomplice to child-rape. He belongs in jail.
Source plz
It's common knowledge. The letter was sent in May 2001. Lawyers acting for abuse victims called it a "clear obstruction of justice" (the Guardian newspaper)
thanks for common knowledge source. I'll not be argumentative.
Are you being sarcastic? When I say 'common knowledge I mean it was in all the papers and TV news. What more do you want - the guy cared more about the reputation of the church than about the well-being of children.
I elect Dave for the judge of all. What is your point? He's not perfect? He's evil? What?
It is odd how this video mixes conservative Christian closed-mindedness with leftist political correctness and self-declared victimhood, but that is exactly what modern Catholicism represents. Relativism is positivist and scientific. Relativism does not preclude ethics. The politically correct wish that no race or religion be stereotyped is anti-scientific.
@wordonfirevideo
Wow. I thought the Church only required celibacy. I didn't realize it included castration.
As for Paul and Jesus, I'm not aware of any requirement imposed on them, so the example is really not relevant to the topic at hand.
what a good little propaganda agent.