The Most IMPORTANT Skill in Fighting Games - Learning How to Learn
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
- This is a topic I think every aspiring fighting game player should hear. Knowing how to learn is crucial so I talk about what skills I think help you do that!
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00:00 Intro
1:00 What Does "Learning to Learn" Mean?
1:45 How to Ask Questions!
3:35 How to Break Problems Down to Find Solutions
5:25 The Problem With "Results Based Learning"
8:25 Understand Why Things Are Good and Not All Answers are Straightforward
10:00 Small Improvements Add Up
13:00 Closing Thoughts 
Игры
More philosophical lectures like this, please.
If you enjoy talking about something, people will typically enjoy listening to you talk about it.
That is true for the most part yeah. The concern is getting people to watch it in the first place but that will come with time ^.^
@@SQuirrel147 Never watched before but you hooked me with this vid. Loved how well thought out your thoughts (Heh) were.
One thing which helped me to be easier on myself while learning FGs in the last year, was embracing "little wins".
Like you described:
Did I land a combo I practiced in a real match?
Did I reacted or guessed right in a mix up situation?
Seeing, an appreciate this things helped me a lot to have a more positive mind, and this alone helps A LOT to learn.
e.g. I have a hard time against Leo, more in regards of MU knowledge, BUT I land a DP punish combo, which I embrace. And so I was not negative about my overall lose, since I did something I practiced in a game. And so I had much more motivation to look through the replays to search for problems.
Also I started to ask more frequently better players, best case one who plays the character I have troubles with, what I they would recommend to do against [insert button or move].
And once I had a 4 hour long practice session with a Potemkin main, since I absolute could not understand how I have to play the MU - now I start to make Potemkins RQ, which suprisingly feels amazing XD
So in the end I for myself realized, if I have a negative thought on my mind or am to shy to ask for help, I learn much much worse - so I would recommend everyone to embrace your little wins of your practice and don't be afraid to seek help.
Being able to focus on the small wins is a big deal and most don't do it so good job on that!
@@SQuirrel147 OMG Senpai noticed me (Yes I had to do that XD)
This is helpful. I'd be happy to see more similar content.
I love that you take the time to actually explain why the question wasn’t thorough enough, as well as the thought processes that are often left unsaid by other top players! Would love to see more!!
This is fantastic fundamental advice not just for fighting games but for life in general.
Would love to hear you expand on evaluating the decision making process.
The video was great!
Is always a pleasure to see this kind of information being shared. On top of useful I also think it's very healthy for the community in long term.
"It's not because you win that you are good, it's because you are good that you might win."
I like that quote actually. It reminds me of something i say a lot along the lines of "Good players aren't good because they are good. They are good because they know how to get good". Even some of the best players have rough patches or fall off for a bit here or there but they always come back swinging after time.
@@SQuirrel147 I think it's very interesting and on point! It may not sound as much if I say it myself but I believe that thinking that way will make the experience of playing more enjoyable in general.
Thank you for your hard work and all this nice content! :)
I'm trying to think of fighting games more like holding a conversation, and yeah I know it's not a novel concept or anything as we literally use "answers" to describe how to respond to a situation, but I think its benefits are underutilized as a general mindset and thought experiment. In a conversation you can focus on coming up with good answers to basically any question, and there's really never only 1 right answer but there's always answers that are good and answers that are bad. Finding a good answer is getting the best out of the situation, and that's really the wins you take away from the matches, not what the game tells you after the match is over.
You don't "win" a conversation(I know some people think you do but that's posturing, not winning) and in the same way you don't really "win" a match when you're playing matches in order to improve, but you *can* do well in a match just like you can do well in a conversation. You can provide consistent, logical arguments for your position, you can have good flow, good vocabulary, be concise and effective, add flair, imagery, be inventive, and you can be attentive and match your responses to what you conversation partner is saying. In a match you can have good movement, good mind games, present a wide variety of options, add creativity, be consistent, have flow in your gameplan, and come up with solutions on your feet to unexpected responses from your opponent.
At that point you're only really losing once you're not coming up with good answers, and that can happen as well but you're not losing to your opponent anymore, you're losing to yourself, and it becomes mroe obvious where you need to focus your work. Maybe it's consistency, maybe it's familiarity, maybe it's variety. That part can still be difficult, but thinking about it like this has helped me get my feelings of inferiority out of the way and not feeling like other people are beating me but rather that I'm simply losing at playing the video game and I realize what I have to change.
That is a very interesting way of thinking about things. Honestly I think an issue for a lot of players is not having these deeper thoughts on the games they play or the improvement process and just kinda go in pressing buttons expecting time spent to translate to results. Looking at FGs as a conversation is good in a more literal sense as well because just like in a conversation, you need to hear your opponent and consider what they are doing. Often players don't get this part and just only pay attention to themselves
Imo, content on The Learning Process is always interesting. The journey never really ends and players at all skill levels can add perpective on what they do or dont understand to the conversation because there’s always value in rotating your focus between larger and smaller concepts. Sometimes we just need to hear the right explanation for how we learn and a concept or learning stategy will click, and that can especially be the case when we return to a larger concept with new experience in a smaller area (and vice versa). So I think being part of the discussion and asking questions is valuable for absolutely everyone as long as you can keep your ego in check and prioritize growth over wins.
Good content
Thanks for the compliment! I think this stuff is very valuable but it's often not what players "look" for. Like I talked about in the video, often times people just want direct answers to questions and don't really ever consider much else. In that sense, content like this is a bit harder of a sell and it's less likely people will search for this stuff.
SQ thank you for this video, I personally got a lot out of it. I would love to see a whole series with topics like this.
"Be easy on yourself." I love that message at the end.
Thank you and have an awesome day!
Thank you for this! I love discussions like these where you talk about in-depth concepts or subtle stuff that average players like us might not see/experience. Keep up the good content!
This is exactly the kind of content I wish I had access to when I started my fighting game journey 9 years ago. While I have seen lots of concrete improvements in myself as a player, I think knowing this info and approach would have saved me a whole lot of frustration throughout the years. I'm really thankful to people like you and Romolla for making content like this, it's very valuable to me and I'm sure countless others as well ❤
Glad you made this video. Been plateaued with my Ram for a while.
I love content about learning in FG's!! Each game and each character is different, but when you can systemize and improve your learning process, it helps put the pieces together so much quicker each time rather than starting from scratch!
Also godlike thumbnail fr LOL
hearing you talk about how to figure out what is "good" or "bad" (in terms of decision making) would be awesome. great video!
Really cool video, it helped me reflect on some stuff about my gameplay, I just started my journey a few weeks ago and these kind of videos are helpful
Love this kind of content!
Thank you for this video
Great content!
This is the kind of video I needed today, thank you
This video was helpful for me, and I'd be very happy to hear about the "how do you identify what's good?" topic that you mentioned!
Thank you for your effort in making videos like this. They really help and just wanted you to know :) i dont play strive anymore but this is so applicable to other games like persona still
Or i should say it helps me in persona arena
A late watch for me but thankfully still applicable. I find it’s really easy to forget that learning is a process and needs to be taken step by step
Videos on Concepts is what this genre desperately needs. Keep doing these.
You definitely should continue those type of videos
Love this!!
a video on the differences between result based learning and the optimal altrnatives vould be great!
MORE of this
hey, thanks
Okay third comment sorry lol
I would really love to see a video on how you can evaluate certain things like you mentioned in the middle section of the video.
I find myself dealing with theoretical examples in both directions. I know that’s part of the whole results not defining whether an option is good or not, but basically there are some things that work on paper or don’t work on paper that do end up working out in a real scenario. Sometimes it’s hard to evaluate that, especially the ones that don’t work on paper but may end up working out in matches due to the human limit.
I may have answered some of my own question in my head now that I’ve typed it out, but I think it’s a good topic nonetheless.
I like these types of videos, one thing that would be nice in another video is something to keep track what was talked about. Romolla does the notepad thing but i find it too wordy and small to keep up with so maybe breaking it down thru YT chapters like ur old ram vids could work
I often forget to add timestamps to my videos lol. Just ran through and put some for this video so thanks for the reminder and thanks for watching ^.^
This is exactly what I've been wanting to express to a friend, yet they're the type of person that doesn't *want* to learn. I worry linking them this video will upset them, as they don't like being told what to do, but will complain I'm not helping them get better.
Thats some good thumbnail.
My question is: How do I find people whose idea of fun isn't about getting better, but instead is about just about messing around within others and not having to learn 17 step combinations to even be able to talk to people?
Honestly, I'm brand new to fighting games entirely. its extremely difficult to not mash and what I feel would help me best is finding a high skill player taking me into a custom match and giving me hands on information. I'm not good at observing then going into my own corner and figuring it out. but when left to my own devices I just get frustrated despite wanting to learn because I straight up dont have the knowledge to answer my own questions and no matter how much research I do on YT or Twitch, I'm not going to find it.
Honestly, asking questions is always kinda hit-and-miss with me. Sometimes, it clicks, and I feel great when I understand. Most of the time though, even if I do understand it at first, it always devolves into an abject lack of comprehension once I start trying to apply it. It’s like my math class; constantly trying to pay attention, trying to pick out the important bits, the things I need to do to improve, but the answer is almost always either something I can’t even begin to approach, or something that feels inexpedient, and takes altogether too much time to be efficient.
So, here I am, six years into trying to understand fighting games… still unable to comprehend my own failings, and still only really able to play them in a safe environment with family or friends who quickly lose interest because I’ve gotten _just_ good enough to frustrate them, and when they start winning with tactics that befuddle me, it quickly deteriorates my mental game until I just get frustrated and punch my fightstick in anger.
It’s shitty, but I love the look and feel and tactile input of these games. The mental game is just too fuckin’ much though. The nuance too deep to get. The problems require so much effort, and all for just one thing.
I’d not mind it if the process was more fun, but there’s so much that involves not hitting buttons, just… _watching myself get beaten…_ I want to get better; to understand it, but it’s like every step forward requires me to climb a mountain, punch myself in the face, and then do a calculus test before I get anywhere, only to realize that isn’t the end of the learning curve, and I can’t even relax into a pattern yet.
Meanwhile, there’s dudes with hiking gear and bloodied feet and faces with calculators in hand passing me by and commenting about how fun this all is and I’m just bewildered, asking: “What the hell am I missing???”
If the only way you derive enjoyment is through winning that might be the problem right there. Learning to enjoy the process as a whole and just the fun of the games you play is just as important as anything else. Focusing on 1 small thing at a time is usually the best way to get over humps like this as an issue for a lot of players is lack of control over their actions in matches. Fighting games move very quickly so it's easy to get overwhelmed in them. The nuance isn't too deep, it's just that it's not intuitive is the thing. That said, if you aren't enjoying the process it will only make the experience a chore
@@SQuirrel147 I have tried focusing on small victories, but the fact that I can’t really control what those victories are most of the time really kills it, like they’re just incidental victories; the side effects of playing the game and occasionally guessing right. Not to mention that the losses really start to pile up and make me feel as though, despite everything I’m doing, eventually I just have to stop playing the game how I want to play it, and instead “play” it by doing stuff that I don’t really want to: watch my own replays, and go into practice mode.
I like these games, the characters, the music, the awesome stunts you can pull… but when I’m not able to do anything with those elements, it stops being fun.
And regarding losing, it’s not really that much of an issue when I lose, it’s when the same thing keeps stuffing me,
Over,
And over,
And over…
And I’m doing my best to explore my options, but they just keep doing it, and it just keeps working. When both me and my opponent are having bouts at each other, everything is fine, even if I lose. It’s when the fights are one-sided, and Im practically a spectator as I watch my character be a victim for 30 seconds as my opponent just repeatedly reads and dunks on me.
The bitterness of losing stings so much more when it’s like I never stood a chance to begin with, and I know it’s moments like that that I’m supposed to watch and learn from my opponent and just do what I can, but again, it starts to make me lose engagement, and yeah… I get overwhelmed. It’s not a matter of me losing, it’s a matter of me getting crushed.
OKAY FINAL COMMENT I PROMISE.
I think one aspect that people don’t consider when they decide to learn via watching other top players play is that you’re only able to see what the players chose to do in the situations.
One very important of a fighting game is, of course, what options you choose to do in each scenario, but it’s just as important to consider the options you ARENT doing.
Watching you play Ram, I can see all of the things you chose to do, and I can slow down or rewind the videos to better understand why you chose to do something.
I can’t pause the video and see inside of your brain and understand what other options you had ready.
You talked about having “7” (I know it’s a random number probably) different things you can do to counter Gunflame based on various situations, and that’s the thing we can’t see. We see the one option you chose, but what are the other 6 you had ready? Why did you choose the one you did and not the others? When do the other options become better than the one you chose?
And even more invisible are the times you may specifically choose to do nothing at all.
So it’s definitely good to watch players fight to see real time adaptation and maybe some combo options you hadn’t considered, but you also need to keep in mind that it’s literally just the tip of the iceberg.
It can be hard to tell the difference between evenly matched top 100 players fighting each other and two top 5 players fighting each other because of this. The tips of their icebergs might look the same, but the top 5 players are going to have a Titanic-sinking level of knowledge that you don’t see, and that’s why a top 5 vs a top 100 can be a slaughterfest.
This is a good point for sure and it's something I will definitely go over in a future video soon! There are so many aspects that go into the learning process I can make an endless amount of videos on. I will also admit for top level players an issue honestly is that for us our thought process is so far ahead in terms of weighing our options and knowing what to consider that the details often get left out when talking about these things. As most of my content is geared towards the low/mid level players looking to improve, I'm having to teach myself how to put myself in the shoes of the people I am trying to assist and how to phrase things in a helpful way. The concept of assessing options through risk reward and playing odds etc is almost second nature for many strong players but I want to explain it in a way that is helpful for any skill level. I appreciate your comments ^.^
huge
1:45
I actually really like the talk about options and results based feedback being wrong.
Great example I have of this from my past is with Wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee/Project M.
Even if you get the tech skill and execution down perfectly for wavedashing, you still probably won’t get the results you’re looking for without playing a bunch of matches and experimenting with how you use the technique.
Wavedashing by itself isn’t a good option. You have to learn how to wave dash with intent or with a purpose. That’s not something you can grind out in the lab.
But you also can’t write it off and say, “I’ll never use wave dashing again because I just keep losing when I do it.” If you never practice it in a real match, you’ll never be able to learn how and when and why you want to do it.
You’re going to wave dash the wrong way at the wrong time or you’re going to wave dash into an opponent’s attack or you’ll mess up the spacing or you won’t predict the opponent’s movement or something.
There are some things you have to know are good options regardless of whether or not they’re costing you the game right now.
That is very true! It's natural to base opinions on face value instead of thinking critically about the matter at hand. Because losing causes frustration in so many players they aren't willing to tough it out and instead end up in a situation where they are going to suffer for longer cause they aren't committing to proper learning methods
Aight SQ, let’s see what this video is all about.
>:) comment for the algorithm.
Edit:
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day.
If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.”
Okay, but also you could just give me a lifetime supply of fish, you greedy meanieface.
Jk this is sound advice. I’m looking forward to your next fishing stream.
Fighting games seem like war. You need to know the enemy and yourself, what works sometimes may not. Thank you.
This reminds me of those times on Twitter where the topic of coaching came up. I saw a lot of good players clowning on the concept of even getting coaches for fighting games talking about it being pointless or a waste of money. No hate to them really and like it's Twitter it doesn't mean anything lol but I really feel like this is part of what's left out of those conversations.
I don't think a lot of better players can empathize with newer players the right way anymore and kinda don't consider that these players may not know how to learn as you bring up here. A lot of them are people who played in the arcades for years and made a fraction of the progress that people do nowadays and it's like... Ugh. Really I don't know why you'd shit on someone trying to improve themselves in the first place like who does that hurt lol
Really not trying to start drama or anything but that shit bothered me and I felt like I'd get dog piled on Twitter haha
𝓟Ř𝔬𝓂𝔬𝐒ϻ 😌
"Learn how to learn"? Are you stupid or what? When it comes to my job or other "real life situations" learning is of course part of it. But playing video games never demanded "learning how to learn" in the first place. When I need to learn how to learn how to play a video game to remain on top of my game in the realm of fighting games, I can also learn something that actually helps me in real life and play video games that still provide that distinctive difference that needs to exist between video games and reality.
Reality: learn for life.
Gaming: have fun for life.
Fighting game pros: "Hold or pee jars!"