@@johndoh5182 They have their place, but the round trip efficiency of flow batteries is lower than Li and Na tech. With large Li deposits being found in various countries, including the US and UK, prices should continue to fall.
Yeah, all these promises, but he didn't state the difference in cost per KwH. Lithium Air for the win! Especially lithium air that can use the air. Maximum therotical potential is 12,000 KWH per KG! About that. Half that if you include oxyogen. So a ten kilogram battery could power a car for ease..
I haven't invested in any sodium ion startups, but I'm hugely invested in this little blue marble we live on, and very much appreciate the (occasional) good news and insight you provide to us on keeping it habitable. Thank you, Dave!
i mean it wont end humanity, but its still a really bad irreversable damage, taking the CO2 back is basically impossible currently and probably for a while
The more investment into all types of electrical energy storage the better. Great work on parsing the data of these technologies and presentations that are understandable, informing, entertaining and balanced. Well done 👍
I think it's important that multiple technologies are pursued as there are many different applications requiring energy storage. Keep up the good work researching and explaining for the interested but less dedicated.😁👍
I think the odds of us ending up with a single battery chemistry is small. The characteristics for those different applications vary so widely, like aircraft and stationary storage for example.
Now a sodium ion battery relationship with potassium immersed in brackish water solution - ignited by a Plasma Arc reactor, would make an interesting energy solution to the world's "how do we get to other planets problem." Simply 'space hop' like a skimming stone across a pond. Replenishing Ions would be easy in space. A condenser to collect space ice would complete the equation. A substantial quartz crystal to harvest solar energy transfer through to the arc generator would ignite the fuse inside a vacuum chamber, which, in turn, can be released as propulsion as and when required. Mathematics is not as hard as you think.
Sodium batteries seems like a great fit for stationary storage. This would free up LFP to be used for cars and other vehicles. Whats left is airplanes and ships, and I think that swappable aluminium air batteries can solve the electric airplane's energy density problem, since charging planes takes too long time anyway.
Their prices are nothing special. LFP cells from NKON in netherlands are cheaper for me in the EU. Alibaba and Aliexpress present many problems importing.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 That being the case, it's STILL nice to see something come out of the headlines and onto a store page, even if prices are relatively high and performance isn't that impressive yet. We've seen plenty of commercial products make major strides in performance and functionality as new versions come out, but too many of these things seem to just hang in development hell forever and never reach consumers at all.
Viable recycling of batteries of various chemistries around the world definetely needs more attention than its getting currently. I remember how much trouble the company I worked for years ago had with this side of things down here in OZ. Practically every battery pack we used was comprised of the 'usual' cylindrical cells. They are probably in landfill.
7:00. What an awesome infographic - I do data science work and need to present data from time to time. What an exceptionally effective way to present the data.
I've bought a few sample Sodium batteries. Looks ideal for Mobility Scooter upgrades from 2 x 12v to 1 x 24v and still adds a bit of weight for stability with greater range...
A small quibble: The overall electrical generation system must get greener for any battery technology to provide appreciable benefit. Without that, we are just replacing carbon rich primary movers (ICE) with secondary storage for carbon rich primary generation(Coal, Oil, NG, Wood, Biomass), involving additional losses and increasing the carbon footprint for making, maintaining and recycling the secondary storage. In addition, we are concentrating the locations of emission, exacerbating the effects in certain locales.
glad to see you revisiting emerging technologies, some of which are hailed to be society's silver bullets; one too many tech channels tend to make short form videos on these technologies, praise them to death and never talk about them again, once they fade away into obscurity
With its lower energy density, would seem to be a good option for large scale grid energy storage where the amount of space they take up is presumably not as critical.
Energy density isn’t only about volume. I think it means EVs will remain lithium ion for now because to get the same energy u need a more massive battery… which actually gives less range, so you need it even bigger, and so on
What a pleasure to find a rational well explained science channel afloat in a sea of disinformation from oil interests and luddites. Thank you for this small island of sanity in a sea of propaganda. From climate change to battery chemistry your work is excellent and unbiased and makes me feel optimistic that there are rational people working on today and tomorrow's technological challenges who might yet save humanity from itself.
Hi Dave. Great work as usual! Shame about all the trolls who now submerge the comments in flatulence. Anyway, how about a future double-hander revisit with Rosie on 'alternative' windmill designs which seem to have resurfaced on social media?
My guess is as production increases/budgets increases they might be able to improve things even more or cost goes down which could help it become more attractive as an option.
Since 2010, Spain invested in multiple thermal energy storage systems using molten salt. A 1GWh molten salt storage capacity system is about to be commissioned & represents one third of Spain's forecasted 2030 requirements. Check it out, pretty impressive. We were flying over the earlier Sodium storages in Southern Spain: lots of wind turbines & concentric solar panels ...
SSB's are already on the market and used in many applications where they fit perfectly. I guess you want some n your car. Nope, not happening. Not even in Formula One cars.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 the only Solid State Batteries I know being sold are Semi Solid State which use a liquid to bridge the bounties between anode/cathode & electrolyte solids. Are these what you are referring to as SSBs?
@@robblincoln2152 I refer to medical devices and long term low powered industrial applications which use solid state batteries. Not semi. Completely solid state. Those that used mainly nuclear batteries until the 1990s.
Thank you for a calm voice of reason and balanced commentary in an otherwise charged and clickbait dominated world. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on the grid infrastructure in the UK and the impact of large future uptake of solar and local renewable on it.
Great unbiased and well explained video. The piece that really needs further understanding with Na-ion is if it is safer than Li-ion when it fails. Is the thermal runaway energy less, is there less toxic emissions produced? If the answer to these questions is yes, this may make Na-ion the go-to chemistry for indoor stationary storage.
Low cost $/MWh, environmentally friendly stationary storage seems the Key to making intermittent generation practical. I'm hoping that sodium ion is going to be able to do that. Sounds reasonably possible....
It makes sense to have local intermitent generation linked to time shifting bulky fixed storage and then plug in the car when you get home or power up the heat pump when you need it.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 For me sodium better environmentally than lithium. But lowering the cost of grid scale batteries is for me the big issue in getting to renewable generation. Wind and solar provide low cost generation, but they need storage to overcome their intermittent nature and that is still way too expensive.
Chinese manufacturer Farasis energy and Hina energy already have their sodium ion battery in mass production. The largest battery manufacturer in the world CATL and the Second largest BYD both have a dedicated sodium ion battery plant on construction.
Having more options is always a good thing, even if it's just to provide alternatives when trying to cut a deal with a lithium cell manufacturer. You're not likely to get much of a discount, but having a little more leverage sure helps. I would love to see sodium-chemistry cells succeed, but we shall see what speed-bumps they'll run into down the road.
Again an insightful presentation. The only Sodium battery technology that I was involved with was the old Molten Sodium Salt cells , as derived from Zebra batteries and touted by GE and an Italian company for railway traction use in the noughties. This looks much more promising.
I really want more research into sodium sulfur batteries. They would be be slightly more energy dense than comparable lithium phosphorus batteries, but a fraction of the cost like sodium phosphorus.
Thanks for another awesome & informative video topic. I'm looking forward to your new "where are they now" series. Electrification is certainly a critical component of climate restoration efforts, but it's also vitally important that they are enviro-friendly & socially responsible (climate is a symptom of a much wider ecological & biodiversity crises). Different batteries are best suited for different applications and, at the end of the series, it would be great if we could catergorise them into the areas where they are most suited, for example - thermal storage (for industries that use heat or for district heating applications etc) - batteries for the home or small business - batteries for a car, light industrial vehicle, heavy industrial vehicle, light aircraft etc - community battery storage (microgrids) or medium-sized businesses - grid-scale batteries or for large-scale businesses or heavy industries A company in the US (and I'm sure elsewhere too) uses second life EV batteries as grid-scale batteries. This type of "modular" design may also be useful (and cheaper) for micro grids. I am particularly interested in LMBs - Ambri. Their modular design may mean they are suitable for micro-grds and grid-scale batteries? Since the vast majority of people will live in cities by 2050, most climate solutions must come from cities. Energy generation & storage tech - in my opinion - should be located as close to consumers as possible.
I am already 74 yrs old. Can't wait 15 yrs for an energy storage solution for my comparatively-small home Solar system. Guess I'll have to go with LI, unless another storage technology is developed in the next 2-3 yrs. Any suggestions?
I would like to see battery storage and "microgrid" tech incorporated into new building construction, especially large multi-unit buildings, both as a means of grid demand-smoothing (and storing any locally-produced energy such as solar panels) and to keep things up and running during interruptions in grid service. If I were a developer, I'd want to build something like that into any apartment/mixed-use building I'd be building. And since energy & power density aren't really an issue for this application, as wisely suggested in this here video, sodium-ion batteries, as well as liquid-flow batteries and a number of other storage technologies that have been & will continue to be covered here, would be well-suited for this, leaving the lithium for where its advantages are truly appreciated.
I have read that where Na ion batteries really fall short is the energy density per unit volume, not energy density per unit mass. However, it is very hard to find this type of information. It would be interesting if anyone has details of the various Na ion formulations with respect to the energy per volume.
From what I can find Na-ion is 250 - 350 wh/liter, Lithium is around 450wh/liter. These numbers are from google, and should be taken with a grain of sodium..🤣
They present massive problems for producers and designers of BMS and Inverter/Charger. It will be interesting to see how the developers can solve the efficiency problem. Size and weight is not a topic. They are well suited for stationary applications, construction and farming, ships and trains. For passenger cars or trucks LFP or Li-Ion are better suited.
YES! Chunkier but cheaper sodium for grid packs, Lithium for EV's. At 22 million tons of lithium reserves and 8kg lithium per EV, that's TWICE the lithium we need.
i love your channel and watch the new vids when i see them. I want you to say this again and for you to know it isn't meant as an insult, your voice is perfect for bedtime, it always helps me get sleepy and ready to pass out. Make a audio recording of your voice telling stories for kids or something and parents will play it for their kids to fall asleep to, just trust me, it will work. Or you could just read the dictionary...
sodium ion batteries are rolling out way earlier than i thought. About 4 years early. 90% recyclable. No need for nickel or cobolt. Much cheaper and easier access to sodium over lithium. Then charge cycles and battery density ramping up. Li Ion factories easy to convert to Na ION. Reliance in India planning multiple GigaFactories. CATL in china going full speed ahead. Natron is USA have interesting heavy duty batteries for grid storage, or shipping. Low power density. But tens of thousands of duty cycles. Lastly zero chance of thermal runaway. And batteries can be zeroed. So no fire risk from short-circuits if transported.
Another great episode Dave. I had a think and came up with a question about the "like" scoring on RUclips. Since I am one of your Patreon Supporters, albeit in a small way, I enjoy getting so see your videos a bit early and "liking" them there. So Question .. If a video gets liked when seen on Patreon does that like carry over to when you publish the video on RUclips? If not then it would seem that your videos are more highly regarded than RUclipss algorithm would give you credit for. O well not a problem as I usually remember to Like the RUclips versions as well. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for another wonderful, fascinating video. I really like this new series idea where you examine how the technologies discussed in previous videos are doing now. It seems like sodium-ion batteries are progressing well at the technical level, with lots of people working on them in different parts of the world. I wonder how the BYD and Faradian initiatives will go, since both of them are aimed at using the batteries in vehicles instead of the more likely use case of stationary storage.
Thanks for the great content. I've learned a lot from your Thinking! I think lithium will be used for higher end EV applications and sodium-ion for more general EV purposes ~Solid Power Inc. SLDP
Thank you, David, for a great Think. I hope soon I will be able to inform you about the special battery, we are working on within INDUSTRY 5.0 Environment with our partners in Czech Republic
This was really nice meaty update, I am actually eager to know improvements in batteries. Looks like solid complementary technology that has way less problems with supply chain and other resource politics. Which is huge.
Depends on what... cost on the other hand plays a very significant role, however it's just one of the key factors. This type of battery might be very good for stationary storage for the grid or house where size does not matter that much.
Thank you for the commentary. Sodium Ion battery production could be tied to desalinasation plants to provide raw materials. Stationary batteries would be a good use for this.
@@JS-pb6gb Sodium is not hard to find and while it could be bound to desalination we do not have a lack of land based supply. New desalination plant designs which extract lithium as a valuable byproduct are definitely possible and are likely in the works by now.
It's the worst in the northwest. Offroading and winter as the excuse but for 99% of users, 99% of the time they don't use it that way. I have a big truck but it's parked at home most all the time.
Just look at the ads for these monsters. See them fording rivers, tackling mountains, bashing through forests and crossing huge deserts. Then see the huge majority of owners dropping kids off at school, going to the shops and commuting 10 k per day. Tax them off the roads!
Not to overly defend the USA here, but the fact is the USA is huge, and our city planning is based around a TON of people living in the suburbs and commuting 15 miles or more to work. We also have a huge portion of our country that experiences freezing in the winter. As much as I would love for it to be true, we just will never be able to convert over substantially to micro-cars. Businesses would be completely crippled with even moderately poor weather because of both worker and customers not being able to get to the business. I live in Austin, Texas, which would probably be the best case scenario for micro-cars, and I do see them occasionally and with increasing frequency, but really there aren't many cities where they could be used.
If you're referring to the United States, ironically a significant reason why the size of vehicles increased so much was due to the supposedly environmentalist Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations. These penalize auto makers based on how fuel (in)efficient their new vehicles are. However, CAFE defines different categories of vehicles, and sets different fuel economy expectations for each category. Rather than continue to make small vehicles and make those vehicles more fuel efficient, it's easier for auto makers to simply build vehicles at a larger size so that they're put in a more lenient weight class, thereby avoiding the penalty, without having to solve the harder engineering problems. They then run massive advertising campaigns to the consumers, convincing consumers that light trucks and SUV's are safer, more attractive, etc. Before the law was imposed, the industry in the US would make about 80% cars, 20% light trucks. Now it's like 35% cars, 65% light trucks, and we've ended up burning way more fuel and doing way more damage to the environment than if the law had simply not existed.
Thanks for keeping us up to date on this! I looked up "Prussian Blue", mentioned in the Northvolt segment and was surprised to find they literally meant the pigment. I assume Prussian White is a chemical variation. None of this stuff seems really environmentally friendly though. As well as developing these technologies, we probably all ought to plan on reducing our material and energy consumption.
Prussian Blue is NaFe(Fe(CN)6). Prussian White is Na2Fe(Fe(CN)6). Nickel, Cobalt and Copper substituted variants are also being trialled for better cycle life and storage capacity.
It’s always better for the environment to consume less, but comparing sodium chemistries to practically anything else out there, it toxicity is negligible. I think we would be well off putting national policies (primarily tax and federal purchasing policies) into place that favored Sodium batteries DESPITE their lower density BECAUSE of their much much lower toxicity. Don’t know about you, but I don’t need the ridiculously high range which might require the densities afforded by the best lithium chemistries.
@@robblincoln2152 Lithium chemistry’s do have a place in automotive applications (especially aviation - yes electric aircraft are a “thing”). It’s about what is “appropriate” for an application.
It is amazing how much attention and development has been focused on electric batteries, and rightlly so. I believe this huge effort will deliver a good path to the future of electric vehicles.
@@PeterSedesseyou're suggesting a fundamental change to the way human beings & our societies work, it may meet some resistance. The day someone first put 2 wheels on a cart the EV was invented, it's just taken a few millennia to refine it to the range of products we have now. The idea is entrenched in the human psyche.
@@alanhat5252 What is the fundamental change? Instead of using a Tesla Powerwall that is 1x3x4 you use a sodium ion battery that is twice as big, but 1/10th the cost. You buy a new home, you move in your fridge, and you move in your battery which will be about the same size and cost.
I may be wrong, but I truly believe that battery technology that is being researched and developed now, will change the world in a relatively few years from now. I believe it might be a quantum leap similar in magnitude to the shift from kerosene lanterns and candles to electricity. In spite of the opposition from the fossil fuel industry and their political cronies, the market will demand change.
Also agree. I started getting into battery technology for home backup use in 2015 and sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries were still the standard due to costs and availability. Then Li-ion prices dropped and became the standard and now is being replaced by LiFo battery technology as the preferred solution for home and EVs. The tech seems to change for the better every five years.
I feel like a lot of people are waiting for that to happen. Hence the downturn of EV sales. That, with people waiting for the NACS changeover, and all the early adopters already have their EVs. People want sodium ion and solid state technology to get into regular production. For vehicles, sodium ion would be best for smaller economy EVs and phevs. Also, it would be very ideal for battery storage for the home as a back up generator. Larger and high performance EVs will be other battery technology. Hopefully that all gets going in the next 2 years which would tie into the NACS changeover, and EV sales will then be huge by 2026.
@@jeffs6090you betcha! Every week a new article of the new battery technology that's revolutionary - solid-state batteries! Why would anybody buy any bee now! Wait till next week😅
I live for the day when we just suck up sea water, get fresh water for our needs, make hydrogen and store our power in sodium. The answer to many problems is as far as the nearest coast line. Thank you for an excellent presentation. Solar Bob
What happened to that startup that made a grid battery out of a large container of heated sand? Always wondered how they got electricity out of that system.
They are currently building a Lithium refinery here in Oklahoma. The investment being made to get out from under China is ultimately a good thing. I think battery technologies have a long road ahead. But with enginuity and perseverance we will get a battery that suits all our needs.
The biggest problem with Sodium ion (Na+) batteries is that the voltage is a little low over most of the voltage graph for a typical 12V replacement battery. Putting four Na cells in series creates a nominal 12V battery but the voltage is already well under 12V at 50% state of charge (SOC). The energy density isn't great when compared to LiFePO4 (Lithium-iron, or LFP) batteries, let alone NMC Li-ion batteries like those used in most EVs. The cost for Na+ is still higher than those chemistries for now. Presumably, that will drop as production is developed and refined, but bulk Na+ battery availability could free up the constraints on lithium, and might also just drop the prices of LFP and NMC batteries at the same time, keeping them cheaper, and still better, than Na batteries.
what you wrote is just another way of saying the density is lower than lithium ion, which is true. I think he mentioned in the video, for most people the goal of sodium isn't in EVs, it is for stationary batteries, that then reduces the demand of lithium so lithium is cheaper for EVs.
@@PeterSedesse Nope. The main point is that the voltage vs. SOC curve is too steep in Na+ batteries. This is VERY bad for stationary batteries where the single largest load is usually the inverter. Inverters typically include a low voltage cutoff, and that would mean getting less than half of the theoretical SOC out of the battery, and the rest having a voltage too low to run the inverter. EVs, with their more complex voltage management systems are often better equipped for a voltage curve like that of Na+. But then you might as well go with LFP, which is lighter, cheaper, and already proven.
In the applications where they will be used this makes no real difference. A number of these cells will be stacked in series to create a 400V battery. Hence you might end up using a few more Na ion cells compared to a Li ion battery.
Thanks for the explanation @daveduncan2748, that may represent a challenge for the residential side of things, as the 12V batteries are almost in disuse, most solar for residential are made of 24V ones, anyway, we can use it in home use, but the fact that they can't sustain the voltage when the battery is 50% or less is a challenge. There must be ways to normalize the current, wish us luck! I going to research a bit more about the voltage variation and the stability of residential system using 12V batteries, just in case we, as a society, need to change to a more sustainable batteries for the closer future. And by the way do you know of any use of this technology in the residential sector? I know they are pretty new but, no harm in ask.
Even if sodium ion isn't it, the level of research funding now being injected into battery tech is such that we will eventually find that panacea material that's cheap, environmentally friendly, and delivers all the range and charge time we need (I'm ultimately optimistic).
There is not, and never has been anything such as a free lunch, or a magic bullet, or perpetual motion. We must use the materials we have as judiciously as we can to achieve the desired results. We cannot expect electric vehicles to exceed petroleum vehicles in every aspect. Rather embrace the new technology for what it is and change your own expectations accordingly. That’s my 2 cents
Great video. Awesome tech for developing countries and home storage likely, and I think you're right about lithium too despite the current "lithium mining and pricing crisis" faced by miners such as those here in Australia who are facing temporary shutdown due to macroeconomics, covid driven supply issues and Chinese supply stocking and subsidies. That will correct in time I think but for now it's helping drive down general vehicle prices as a result of mass production getting better and battery prices going down, along with competition in the small car market. New Tech in the solid state front will increase range and with prices low, it's yet to be seen how the SUV market in western countries will go. Sodium ion for now will go well in the small car run-around-town market.
You conviniently missed the most advanced company in Sodium ion space: HiNa. Even it could be seen on the paper you showed at the end. As opposed to other companies HiNa has been deploying Mega watt hour size batteries since 2017. They were also the first ones to deploy them commercially in cars earlier this year.
Once super charging is ubiquitous along with fast charging EVs, battery range will largely become irrelevant. A 200 mile range would be more than adequate. You need a rest anyway every 200 miles driving, so you can fast charge then. Also large scale storage is better suited to sodium ion technology, due to safety.
Energy Density is not a concern for Stationary Storage.
It just need to be cheap.
Yup, which is why Redox flow batteries work well for that purpose, not Tesla grid storage based on Li-Ion, no matter HOW HARD they try to push it,
I'd rephrase that to say it's of relatively little concern. If each battery is the size of the titanic then ill not be putting one in my attic...
@@johndoh5182 They have their place, but the round trip efficiency of flow batteries is lower than Li and Na tech. With large Li deposits being found in various countries, including the US and UK, prices should continue to fall.
Yeah, all these promises, but he didn't state the difference in cost per KwH.
Lithium Air for the win! Especially lithium air that can use the air. Maximum therotical potential is 12,000 KWH per KG! About that. Half that if you include oxyogen.
So a ten kilogram battery could power a car for ease..
@@hamsterminatorwhy not? Think how much bigger your attic would be?
I haven't invested in any sodium ion startups, but I'm hugely invested in this little blue marble we live on, and very much appreciate the (occasional) good news and insight you provide to us on keeping it habitable. Thank you, Dave!
Thank you. Much appreciated :-)
Habitable to whom? Fossile CO2 won’t make it unhabitable, just not for the currentl ecosystems.
i mean it wont end humanity, but its still a really bad irreversable damage, taking the CO2 back is basically impossible currently and probably for a while
@@purplegoop1247 there are also natural rated of carbonification of minerals that take out CO2
@@teekanne15right, the same ecosystems that produce all of humanity’s food and other crucial resources like timber. 🤡
The more investment into all types of electrical energy storage the better. Great work on parsing the data of these technologies and presentations that are understandable, informing, entertaining and balanced. Well done 👍
Love the idea of revisiting previous “game changing” tech 😊 to see where they are now, as ever keep up the good work 👍
I think it's important that multiple technologies are pursued as there are many different applications requiring energy storage. Keep up the good work researching and explaining for the interested but less dedicated.😁👍
I think the odds of us ending up with a single battery chemistry is small. The characteristics for those different applications vary so widely, like aircraft and stationary storage for example.
Now a sodium ion battery relationship with potassium immersed in brackish water solution - ignited by a Plasma Arc reactor, would make an interesting energy solution to the world's "how do we get to other planets problem."
Simply 'space hop' like a skimming stone across a pond. Replenishing Ions would be easy in space. A condenser to collect space ice would complete the equation.
A substantial quartz crystal to harvest solar energy transfer through to the arc generator would ignite the fuse inside a vacuum chamber, which, in turn, can be released as propulsion as and when required.
Mathematics is not as hard as you think.
Sodium batteries seems like a great fit for stationary storage. This would free up LFP to be used for cars and other vehicles. Whats left is airplanes and ships, and I think that swappable aluminium air batteries can solve the electric airplane's energy density problem, since charging planes takes too long time anyway.
Na-ion batteries are already on sale on alibaba and other from various Chinese sellers.
Their prices are nothing special. LFP cells from NKON in netherlands are cheaper for me in the EU. Alibaba and Aliexpress present many problems importing.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 That being the case, it's STILL nice to see something come out of the headlines and onto a store page, even if prices are relatively high and performance isn't that impressive yet. We've seen plenty of commercial products make major strides in performance and functionality as new versions come out, but too many of these things seem to just hang in development hell forever and never reach consumers at all.
Do there exist any automobiles that use sodium ion?
Or are they still too heavy for EVs due to the lower energy density?
I thoroughly enjoy your thoughtful and thought-provoking presentations.
Cheers Brian :-)
Does it make you, have a think?
*Rimshot*
I’ll show myself out.
Dave, love these recap the tech episodes!
Cheers David. Lots more coming this year :-)
@@JustHaveaThink 🎉
Viable recycling of batteries of various chemistries around the world definetely needs more attention than its getting currently.
I remember how much trouble the company I worked for years ago had with this side of things down here in OZ. Practically every battery pack we used was comprised of the 'usual' cylindrical cells. They are probably in landfill.
7:00.
What an awesome infographic - I do data science work and need to present data from time to time.
What an exceptionally effective way to present the data.
Thanks! For revisiting ideas and their real-world applicability. Myriad of "promising" storage. And for doing applications not just for automobiles.
Thanks so much for your support. Much appreciated :-)
I've bought a few sample Sodium batteries. Looks ideal for Mobility Scooter upgrades from 2 x 12v to 1 x 24v and still adds a bit of weight for stability with greater range...
A small quibble: The overall electrical generation system must get greener for any battery technology to provide appreciable benefit. Without that, we are just replacing carbon rich primary movers (ICE) with secondary storage for carbon rich primary generation(Coal, Oil, NG, Wood, Biomass), involving additional losses and increasing the carbon footprint for making, maintaining and recycling the secondary storage. In addition, we are concentrating the locations of emission, exacerbating the effects in certain locales.
glad to see you revisiting emerging technologies, some of which are hailed to be society's silver bullets; one too many tech channels tend to make short form videos on these technologies, praise them to death and never talk about them again, once they fade away into obscurity
Nice to get an update on how the sodium cells are progressing.
With its lower energy density, would seem to be a good option for large scale grid energy storage where the amount of space they take up is presumably not as critical.
Energy density isn’t only about volume.
I think it means EVs will remain lithium ion for now because to get the same energy u need a more massive battery… which actually gives less range, so you need it even bigger, and so on
Probably could set up a differential equation similar to that used in rocketry. The more fuel the rocket needs, the more fuel the rocket needs
What a pleasure to find a rational well explained science channel afloat in a sea of disinformation from oil interests and luddites. Thank you for this small island of sanity in a sea of propaganda. From climate change to battery chemistry your work is excellent and unbiased and makes me feel optimistic that there are rational people working on today and tomorrow's technological challenges who might yet save humanity from itself.
Hi Dave. Great work as usual! Shame about all the trolls who now submerge the comments in flatulence. Anyway, how about a future double-hander revisit with Rosie on 'alternative' windmill designs which seem to have resurfaced on social media?
Nice, a video just about the technology. The lack of "us vs them" comments in appreciated.
Thanks for the update.
After you first mentioned "salt" storage
I have often wondered why it hasn't made the big splash it potentially should have.
My guess is as production increases/budgets increases they might be able to improve things even more or cost goes down which could help it become more attractive as an option.
Since 2010, Spain invested in multiple thermal energy storage systems using molten salt. A 1GWh molten salt storage capacity system is about to be commissioned & represents one third of Spain's forecasted 2030 requirements.
Check it out, pretty impressive. We were flying over the earlier Sodium storages in Southern Spain: lots of wind turbines & concentric solar panels ...
I’d like to see a similar checkup on solid state batteries.
Which variety? Solid state isn’t a single solution but a design philosophy.
SSB's are already on the market and used in many applications where they fit perfectly. I guess you want some n your car. Nope, not happening. Not even in Formula One cars.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 the only Solid State Batteries I know being sold are Semi Solid State which use a liquid to bridge the bounties between anode/cathode & electrolyte solids. Are these what you are referring to as SSBs?
Literally next week's video :-)
@@robblincoln2152 I refer to medical devices and long term low powered industrial applications which use solid state batteries. Not semi. Completely solid state.
Those that used mainly nuclear batteries until the 1990s.
Thank you for a calm voice of reason and balanced commentary in an otherwise charged and clickbait dominated world. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on the grid infrastructure in the UK and the impact of large future uptake of solar and local renewable on it.
Great unbiased and well explained video. The piece that really needs further understanding with Na-ion is if it is safer than Li-ion when it fails. Is the thermal runaway energy less, is there less toxic emissions produced? If the answer to these questions is yes, this may make Na-ion the go-to chemistry for indoor stationary storage.
Thank you Dave, good thinking with the recaps of earlier new worthy stuff .
Cheers Ed. Glad you enjoyed it
Another great video, thanks Dave. I always feel sad when they come to an end... see u next week! 😊
Happy that you follow the projects and inovations that you Show on previous videos.
Low cost $/MWh, environmentally friendly stationary storage seems the Key to making intermittent generation practical. I'm hoping that sodium ion is going to be able to do that. Sounds reasonably possible....
It makes sense to have local intermitent generation linked to time shifting bulky fixed storage and then plug in the car when you get home or power up the heat pump when you need it.
@@andrewharrison8436 I need my heat pump when its cold outside and not when the sun shines.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 Yes, me too. Looking at the ridge top wind turbines as being a better match to my energy neeeds
@tiepup Thats marketing hogwash. Where are those superduper redox flow batteries?
@@wolfgangpreier9160 For me sodium better environmentally than lithium. But lowering the cost of grid scale batteries is for me the big issue in getting to renewable generation. Wind and solar provide low cost generation, but they need storage to overcome their intermittent nature and that is still way too expensive.
Always a pleasure to watch your high quality videos. Thank you
Thanks Jack. Glad you like them!
As always, a pleasure to watch.
Great video like always. Never mentioned for stationary storage was Vandium - used for a comparision
Chinese manufacturer Farasis energy and Hina energy already have their sodium ion battery in mass production. The largest battery manufacturer in the world CATL and the Second largest BYD both have a dedicated sodium ion battery plant on construction.
Having more options is always a good thing, even if it's just to provide alternatives when trying to cut a deal with a lithium cell manufacturer. You're not likely to get much of a discount, but having a little more leverage sure helps. I would love to see sodium-chemistry cells succeed, but we shall see what speed-bumps they'll run into down the road.
You can use Prussian Blue analogues for both cathode and anode. Perhaps less total storage but definitely simpler manufacture.
Again an insightful presentation. The only Sodium battery technology that I was involved with was the old Molten Sodium Salt cells , as derived from Zebra batteries and touted by GE and an Italian company for railway traction use in the noughties. This looks much more promising.
I really want more research into sodium sulfur batteries. They would be be slightly more energy dense than comparable lithium phosphorus batteries, but a fraction of the cost like sodium phosphorus.
Thank you!!! I love a follow up video.
Cheers Steve :-)
Great video, Dave! Like you said, another string to the bow
Great program , if you can I would love to hear about the Australian co. HB3 you reported on a few years ago, thanks.
Thanks for another awesome & informative video topic. I'm looking forward to your new "where are they now" series. Electrification is certainly a critical component of climate restoration efforts, but it's also vitally important that they are enviro-friendly & socially responsible (climate is a symptom of a much wider ecological & biodiversity crises).
Different batteries are best suited for different applications and, at the end of the series, it would be great if we could catergorise them into the areas where they are most suited, for example
- thermal storage (for industries that use heat or for district heating applications etc)
- batteries for the home or small business
- batteries for a car, light industrial vehicle, heavy industrial vehicle, light aircraft etc
- community battery storage (microgrids) or medium-sized businesses
- grid-scale batteries or for large-scale businesses or heavy industries
A company in the US (and I'm sure elsewhere too) uses second life EV batteries as grid-scale batteries. This type of "modular" design may also be useful (and cheaper) for micro grids.
I am particularly interested in LMBs - Ambri. Their modular design may mean they are suitable for micro-grds and grid-scale batteries?
Since the vast majority of people will live in cities by 2050, most climate solutions must come from cities. Energy generation & storage tech - in my opinion - should be located as close to consumers as possible.
We will be reviewing progress at Ambri soon!
I am already 74 yrs old. Can't wait 15 yrs for an energy storage solution for my comparatively-small home Solar system. Guess I'll have to go with LI, unless another storage technology is developed in the next 2-3 yrs. Any suggestions?
I would like to see battery storage and "microgrid" tech incorporated into new building construction, especially large multi-unit buildings, both as a means of grid demand-smoothing (and storing any locally-produced energy such as solar panels) and to keep things up and running during interruptions in grid service. If I were a developer, I'd want to build something like that into any apartment/mixed-use building I'd be building.
And since energy & power density aren't really an issue for this application, as wisely suggested in this here video, sodium-ion batteries, as well as liquid-flow batteries and a number of other storage technologies that have been & will continue to be covered here, would be well-suited for this, leaving the lithium for where its advantages are truly appreciated.
these revisits are very interesting and helpful, thanks.
I have read that where Na ion batteries really fall short is the energy density per unit volume, not energy density per unit mass. However, it is very hard to find this type of information. It would be interesting if anyone has details of the various Na ion formulations with respect to the energy per volume.
From what I can find Na-ion is 250 - 350 wh/liter, Lithium is around 450wh/liter. These numbers are from google, and should be taken with a grain of sodium..🤣
They present massive problems for producers and designers of BMS and Inverter/Charger. It will be interesting to see how the developers can solve the efficiency problem. Size and weight is not a topic. They are well suited for stationary applications, construction and farming, ships and trains. For passenger cars or trucks LFP or Li-Ion are better suited.
Thanks for this update, your work is very much appreciated and the format is spot on, as always.
Much appreciated!
ありがとうございます！
Thanks for your support. Much appreciated
I think we’re going to need a number of different battery solutions to meet the total requirement - great news overall!
I bought 16x Na-ion 18650 1500mA 3V batteries and no problem what so ever.
Excellent Dave! The isea of revisiting older subjects is great.😄
Thanks Richard. More to come :-)
YES! Chunkier but cheaper sodium for grid packs, Lithium for EV's. At 22 million tons of lithium reserves and 8kg lithium per EV, that's TWICE the lithium we need.
It‘s just unbelievable how 100% reliable Dave is, a rock in the surf. 👍
Bless you! I appreciate your support :-)
finally... that is a great idea... Thank you for doing the following up work.
Thanks!
Thanks for your support. Much appreciated!
i love your channel and watch the new vids when i see them. I want you to say this again and for you to know it isn't meant as an insult, your voice is perfect for bedtime, it always helps me get sleepy and ready to pass out. Make a audio recording of your voice telling stories for kids or something and parents will play it for their kids to fall asleep to, just trust me, it will work. Or you could just read the dictionary...
Thanks for the update - this is highly interesting!
thanks for making these videos
sodium ion batteries are rolling out way earlier than i thought. About 4 years early. 90% recyclable. No need for nickel or cobolt. Much cheaper and easier access to sodium over lithium. Then charge cycles and battery density ramping up. Li Ion factories easy to convert to Na ION.
Reliance in India planning multiple GigaFactories. CATL in china going full speed ahead. Natron is USA have interesting heavy duty batteries for grid storage, or shipping. Low power density. But tens of thousands of duty cycles. Lastly zero chance of thermal runaway. And batteries can be zeroed. So no fire risk from short-circuits if transported.
Thanks Dave, another great update. Keep them coming
It all helps. Thanks for the update.
Great stuff as always
great presentation thank you for the update
Our pleasure!
Thank you again for wonderful presentation - cheers
Cheers Colin :-)
Another great episode Dave. I had a think and came up with a question about the "like" scoring on RUclips. Since I am one of your Patreon Supporters, albeit in a small way, I enjoy getting so see your videos a bit early and "liking" them there. So Question ..
If a video gets liked when seen on Patreon does that like carry over to when you publish the video on RUclips? If not then it would seem that your videos are more highly regarded than RUclipss algorithm would give you credit for. O well not a problem as I usually remember to Like the RUclips versions as well.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you for another wonderful, fascinating video. I really like this new series idea where you examine how the technologies discussed in previous videos are doing now.
It seems like sodium-ion batteries are progressing well at the technical level, with lots of people working on them in different parts of the world. I wonder how the BYD and Faradian initiatives will go, since both of them are aimed at using the batteries in vehicles instead of the more likely use case of stationary storage.
Cheers Kevin. Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks so much for your educational efforts!
Thanks Dave! Always a thumbs up in my book.
Thanks for this update! Very informative.
Our pleasure!
I appreciate this revisiting of promising tech segment 👍 Great idea. Thanks for sharing your wonderful work ✌️✨
Thanks for the great content. I've learned a lot from your Thinking! I think lithium will be used for higher end EV applications and sodium-ion for more general EV purposes ~Solid Power Inc. SLDP
Thank you, David, for a great Think. I hope soon I will be able to inform you about the special battery, we are working on within INDUSTRY 5.0 Environment with our partners in Czech Republic
Love you work, cheers.
I thought Na ion batteries were more for storage as opposed to transport. I think the storage application may be most favorable.
CATL do have Sodium Ion powered batteries for use in cars but of the 42 EV manufacturers in China - only the Wuling Mini and JMEV are for sale
An eye opening topic, Thanks for the insight.
This was really nice meaty update, I am actually eager to know improvements in batteries. Looks like solid complementary technology that has way less problems with supply chain and other resource politics. Which is huge.
Depends on what... cost on the other hand plays a very significant role, however it's just one of the key factors. This type of battery might be very good for stationary storage for the grid or house where size does not matter that much.
Thank you for the commentary.
Sodium Ion battery production could be tied to desalinasation plants to provide raw materials.
Stationary batteries would be a good use for this.
Desalinations doesn’t produce salt it produces brine, it will cost much more to fully get pure salt
@@JS-pb6gbNot to mention that finding salt to create these batteries is not a bottle neck in the process.
@@JS-pb6gb Sodium is not hard to find and while it could be bound to desalination we do not have a lack of land based supply. New desalination plant designs which extract lithium as a valuable byproduct are definitely possible and are likely in the works by now.
Yahoo 😀 Love your videos always 😊 Happy New Year from Canada 🇨🇦
Cheers Jason. Happy new year!! :-)
I wish microcars were beloved by my country as well. We love them as big as they'll fit in the lane.
It's the worst in the northwest. Offroading and winter as the excuse but for 99% of users, 99% of the time they don't use it that way. I have a big truck but it's parked at home most all the time.
Just look at the ads for these monsters. See them fording rivers, tackling mountains, bashing through forests and crossing huge deserts. Then see the huge majority of owners dropping kids off at school, going to the shops and commuting 10 k per day. Tax them off the roads!
Yep, big American 4x4s are taking off in Australia and it's a pain in the lane. Only decent range electric 4x4s will take off here for those plonkers.
Not to overly defend the USA here, but the fact is the USA is huge, and our city planning is based around a TON of people living in the suburbs and commuting 15 miles or more to work. We also have a huge portion of our country that experiences freezing in the winter. As much as I would love for it to be true, we just will never be able to convert over substantially to micro-cars. Businesses would be completely crippled with even moderately poor weather because of both worker and customers not being able to get to the business. I live in Austin, Texas, which would probably be the best case scenario for micro-cars, and I do see them occasionally and with increasing frequency, but really there aren't many cities where they could be used.
If you're referring to the United States, ironically a significant reason why the size of vehicles increased so much was due to the supposedly environmentalist Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations. These penalize auto makers based on how fuel (in)efficient their new vehicles are. However, CAFE defines different categories of vehicles, and sets different fuel economy expectations for each category. Rather than continue to make small vehicles and make those vehicles more fuel efficient, it's easier for auto makers to simply build vehicles at a larger size so that they're put in a more lenient weight class, thereby avoiding the penalty, without having to solve the harder engineering problems. They then run massive advertising campaigns to the consumers, convincing consumers that light trucks and SUV's are safer, more attractive, etc.
Before the law was imposed, the industry in the US would make about 80% cars, 20% light trucks. Now it's like 35% cars, 65% light trucks, and we've ended up burning way more fuel and doing way more damage to the environment than if the law had simply not existed.
Thanks for keeping us up to date on this! I looked up "Prussian Blue", mentioned in the Northvolt segment and was surprised to find they literally meant the pigment. I assume Prussian White is a chemical variation. None of this stuff seems really environmentally friendly though. As well as developing these technologies, we probably all ought to plan on reducing our material and energy consumption.
Prussian Blue is NaFe(Fe(CN)6).
Prussian White is Na2Fe(Fe(CN)6).
Nickel, Cobalt and Copper substituted variants are also being trialled for better cycle life and storage capacity.
It’s always better for the environment to consume less, but comparing sodium chemistries to practically anything else out there, it toxicity is negligible. I think we would be well off putting national policies (primarily tax and federal purchasing policies) into place that favored Sodium batteries DESPITE their lower density BECAUSE of their much much lower toxicity. Don’t know about you, but I don’t need the ridiculously high range which might require the densities afforded by the best lithium chemistries.
@@robblincoln2152 Lithium chemistry’s do have a place in automotive applications (especially aviation - yes electric aircraft are a “thing”).
It’s about what is “appropriate” for an application.
@@robblincoln2152 You're probably right about that, but I was thinking of the cyanide in the Prussian Blue and Prussian white.
@@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672 GOOD CATCH! I wasn’t thinking at all of that! Thank you for the reminder.
It is amazing how much attention and development has been focused on electric batteries, and rightlly so.
I believe this huge effort will deliver a good path to the future of electric vehicles.
EVs are part of the problem, but really home storage is the real prize.
@@PeterSedesse - That too
@@PeterSedesseyou're suggesting a fundamental change to the way human beings & our societies work, it may meet some resistance.
The day someone first put 2 wheels on a cart the EV was invented, it's just taken a few millennia to refine it to the range of products we have now.
The idea is entrenched in the human psyche.
@@PeterSedesseelectric cars are fast becoming home storage, particularly where there are 2 or more on the driveway.
@@alanhat5252 What is the fundamental change? Instead of using a Tesla Powerwall that is 1x3x4 you use a sodium ion battery that is twice as big, but 1/10th the cost. You buy a new home, you move in your fridge, and you move in your battery which will be about the same size and cost.
I may be wrong, but I truly believe that battery technology that is being researched and developed now, will change the world in a relatively few years from now. I believe it might be a quantum leap similar in magnitude to the shift from kerosene lanterns and candles to electricity. In spite of the opposition from the fossil fuel industry and their political cronies, the market will demand change.
Also agree. I started getting into battery technology for home backup use in 2015 and sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries were still the standard due to costs and availability.
Then Li-ion prices dropped and became the standard and now is being replaced by LiFo battery technology as the preferred solution for home and EVs.
The tech seems to change for the better every five years.
@@JeremiahTownsend- FYI, Lithium Iron Phosphate was originally denoted LiFePO4, but then shortened to LFP.
I feel like a lot of people are waiting for that to happen. Hence the downturn of EV sales. That, with people waiting for the NACS changeover, and all the early adopters already have their EVs. People want sodium ion and solid state technology to get into regular production. For vehicles, sodium ion would be best for smaller economy EVs and phevs. Also, it would be very ideal for battery storage for the home as a back up generator. Larger and high performance EVs will be other battery technology. Hopefully that all gets going in the next 2 years which would tie into the NACS changeover, and EV sales will then be huge by 2026.
@@jeffs6090you betcha! Every week a new article of the new battery technology that's revolutionary - solid-state batteries! Why would anybody buy any bee now! Wait till next week😅
I live for the day when we just suck up sea water, get fresh water for our needs, make hydrogen and store our power in sodium.
The answer to many problems is as far as the nearest coast line.
Thank you for an excellent presentation. Solar Bob
As long as they stop selling use once and destroy ones and are recycle too to re use w out wastefulness
Recycling, repurposing is as intrinsic as reducing private vehicles or we are just swapping 2 unsustainable industries
What happened to that startup that made a grid battery out of a large container of heated sand? Always wondered how they got electricity out of that system.
Polar Night Energy? They are doing OK - review coming this year :-)
They are currently building a Lithium refinery here in Oklahoma. The investment being made to get out from under China is ultimately a good thing. I think battery technologies have a long road ahead. But with enginuity and perseverance we will get a battery that suits all our needs.
I think that we are going to need a range of batteries and other storage solutions, just as we need a range of green generation solutions.
I’m looking forward to your reassessment of Vanadium Redox Flow Batteries.
I look forward to installing Sodium Ion batteries in my house to compliment my solar panels and allow me to further reduce my dependence on the grid.
The biggest problem with Sodium ion (Na+) batteries is that the voltage is a little low over most of the voltage graph for a typical 12V replacement battery. Putting four Na cells in series creates a nominal 12V battery but the voltage is already well under 12V at 50% state of charge (SOC). The energy density isn't great when compared to LiFePO4 (Lithium-iron, or LFP) batteries, let alone NMC Li-ion batteries like those used in most EVs. The cost for Na+ is still higher than those chemistries for now. Presumably, that will drop as production is developed and refined, but bulk Na+ battery availability could free up the constraints on lithium, and might also just drop the prices of LFP and NMC batteries at the same time, keeping them cheaper, and still better, than Na batteries.
How difficult is it to build switching DC power converters of large size
what you wrote is just another way of saying the density is lower than lithium ion, which is true. I think he mentioned in the video, for most people the goal of sodium isn't in EVs, it is for stationary batteries, that then reduces the demand of lithium so lithium is cheaper for EVs.
@@PeterSedesse Nope. The main point is that the voltage vs. SOC curve is too steep in Na+ batteries. This is VERY bad for stationary batteries where the single largest load is usually the inverter. Inverters typically include a low voltage cutoff, and that would mean getting less than half of the theoretical SOC out of the battery, and the rest having a voltage too low to run the inverter. EVs, with their more complex voltage management systems are often better equipped for a voltage curve like that of Na+. But then you might as well go with LFP, which is lighter, cheaper, and already proven.
In the applications where they will be used this makes no real difference. A number of these cells will be stacked in series to create a 400V battery. Hence you might end up using a few more Na ion cells compared to a Li ion battery.
Thanks for the explanation @daveduncan2748, that may represent a challenge for the residential side of things, as the 12V batteries are almost in disuse, most solar for residential are made of 24V ones, anyway, we can use it in home use, but the fact that they can't sustain the voltage when the battery is 50% or less is a challenge. There must be ways to normalize the current, wish us luck!
I going to research a bit more about the voltage variation and the stability of residential system using 12V batteries, just in case we, as a society, need to change to a more sustainable batteries for the closer future. And by the way do you know of any use of this technology in the residential sector? I know they are pretty new but, no harm in ask.
Sodium even don't have to compete with Lithium. They just have to littlebit Cheaper. In the Markets like Africa and India.
Great video David ! 🔝 this looks promising
Cheers Marco :-)
Even if sodium ion isn't it, the level of research funding now being injected into battery tech is such that we will eventually find that panacea material that's cheap, environmentally friendly, and delivers all the range and charge time we need (I'm ultimately optimistic).
lack of knowledge would be my bet for your optimism
@@DistinctiveBlendhow so?
@@aFEWwanderingALBINOSI imagine he's referring to the overall outlook as we ghost past +1.5°C
@@aFEWwanderingALBINOS As one person commented already there's the overall outlook but also the chemistry of battery tech.
There is not, and never has been anything such as a free lunch, or a magic bullet, or perpetual motion. We must use the materials we have as judiciously as we can to achieve the desired results. We cannot expect electric vehicles to exceed petroleum vehicles in every aspect. Rather embrace the new technology for what it is and change your own expectations accordingly. That’s my 2 cents
Why are home storage batteries (like Powerwall) not coming down more in price?
Great video. Awesome tech for developing countries and home storage likely, and I think you're right about lithium too despite the current "lithium mining and pricing crisis" faced by miners such as those here in Australia who are facing temporary shutdown due to macroeconomics, covid driven supply issues and Chinese supply stocking and subsidies. That will correct in time I think but for now it's helping drive down general vehicle prices as a result of mass production getting better and battery prices going down, along with competition in the small car market. New Tech in the solid state front will increase range and with prices low, it's yet to be seen how the SUV market in western countries will go. Sodium ion for now will go well in the small car run-around-town market.
Great Show !
Thank you :-)
You conviniently missed the most advanced company in Sodium ion space: HiNa. Even it could be seen on the paper you showed at the end. As opposed to other companies HiNa has been deploying Mega watt hour size batteries since 2017. They were also the first ones to deploy them commercially in cars earlier this year.
Why aren't hemp batteries or CNT or graphene batteires in the market yet?
Interesting, Thank You . I hope they work
Once super charging is ubiquitous along with fast charging EVs, battery range will largely become irrelevant. A 200 mile range would be more than adequate. You need a rest anyway every 200 miles driving, so you can fast charge then. Also large scale storage is better suited to sodium ion technology, due to safety.
Thanks Dave,
What about price and weight differances