the target market is elitist snobs, so that's the pitch. Elitism and snobbery is a condition humans naturally fall into with extreme privilege.. Science has proven that just saying one test group is better than the other created the condition. I am told the primary consumers of very expensive audio are mostly middle eastern and Chinese rich guys. while all of vast wealth live isolated lives, perhaps the unique isolation built into each society is the uniting factor of the two primary consumer groups.
I thought exactly that. We all love music and we want it reproduced well but this is a case of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. Fools and their money are easily parted
I am the “famous reviewer” to whom Jonathan refers, with his usual derision even though I bought the prototype K3 that’s mechanically identical to the finished product. In my review I noted that the test record and app I use is essentially for entertainment purposes only yet the K3 still measured best. Jonathan’s cynical attitude towards magazine reviews and reviewers is clear. Again, the review made very clear that the K3 was and is the best sounding turntable I’ve yet heard, though adding the SAT arm to the rear mount improved the bottom octave performance. Note that he admits they don’t have the testing equipment the manufacturers of the motor assembly and motor controller have but in their case that’s fine and understood, but in the case of the reviewer who also doesn’t have such test gear it’s an opportunity for derision, but that’s been ongoing since the day I first met Weiss at a party. Being a pro at this, I ignored then and ignore now his contempt for me. I couldn’t care less. The turntable is the thing and Krebs designed a brilliant one.
This is truly fascinating. Individuals who are looking at physics and mechanics in an innovative way and applying ideas to produce startling audio products.
the essential rigidity needed is why Rega went with a hard ceramic platter in their top design. this designer had other design solutions, which he clearly stated. however, the pitchman insists his is the only solution, all other designs are inferior and must be eliminated from design considerations.
@@richardelliott8352 Most turntable designers have their own particular approaches. We now have the Wilson Benesch GMT 1, which Michael Fremer has reviewed. It might be the new benchmark. Either way, LP playback is improving, which is amazing considering how long digital has been established.
I agree that a direct drive or idle drive system will hold the speed in a more accurate way while playing. I would love to see what you can do with the idler drive system, they say it is to difficult to engineer one today but imagine with todays technology what we can accomplish :) Love your passion and commirent to the hobby. 🤔
Is the study by the Rockefeller institute that you're talking about at 14:33 publicly available? If yes, can some link to it be provided? Otherwise, a really interesting dialogue full of technical details.
Would you share with us how the listening sessions were accomplished? Specifically, were the critical listeners using passive speakers and/or headphones? If passive, can you give us an idea of the listening room and the speakers involved? How about the electronics? Also, if headphones, can you give us an idea of the models and what type of headphone amplification? Thanks so much, Johnathan, Richard and your entire team for your continued desire to push the envelope in pursuit of sonic nirvana!!!
I shouldn't have omitted the possibility of your listening cohorts using active speakers, or hybrids as well. Looking forward to your insights on the listening journey with the K5. If you have any similar insights with the K3, please share them as well. Thanks again! BTW, I really appreciated your "Listening" series!
Hello Cedric, here's Richard Kreb's reply: 'During tests, my system consisted of the OMA K3 mule prototype (from which the final prototype was produced).- Schroeder CB L arm- Shelter Harmony cartridge-Custom, balanced output, tube preamp-PS audio BHK300 power amps- Speakers that were once Acoustat 2+2. Please do not project any experience you may have with 2+2s onto these units. They are fundamentally different.'
Jonathan, absolutely a wonderful, wonderful discussion. I wish it could have continued longer. However, here's my beef. You placed a record on the turntable and spun it just long enough to totally draw us in and suddenly it faded out. What's up with that? You rascal you. At least tell us the artist name and title. Thou extremely brief, it sounded fantastic on your system - even through RUclips! Can we please have a part 2 on the turntable design? Thanks Jonathan
Absolutely fascinating and as is always the case with you none of the TV sales speak as we see from other high end companies but rather kilos of common sense and the ability do describe complex things so that idiots like me can go, "Oh, that makes so much sense, what has no one else thought of this way!" I wonder, would this sort of damping work for speaker bases to stand on?
if you are truly an idiot, god help you around this guy. if not, you know a sales pitch is in among the all too usual audiophile version of actual science.
I thought the discussion of human hearing had serious factual flaws, which the engineer chose not to participate in. . first the choice of digital cut off frequencies was a manufacturing decision, not a limitation of scientific understandings, as it was, for whatever reason, presented. more importantly, the discussion of human hearing completely avoided that human hearing is only subjective , that one can only know what one thinks they hear, which may or may not agree with reality. of course considering that human hearing is only subjective, immediately questions the validity of such an extreme design as a sonic necessity and not just an ego stroke. an ego stroke can be a very valid product goal, as it is, for example, with high end wristwatches. the pitchman all of sudden throws in , " double blind testing" in the middle of the conversation, but despite all the references to listening tests, I am left with the impression that no statistical analysis , which is essential to separate normal subjective hearing results from the actual reality of what was heard, was ever used, only what people thought they heard , was referenced as a result of listening tests. no results, after error was mathematically eliminated, as with actual double blind testing , seemed to be part of the conversation. I could go on, but if this is only part one of three parts, I could get a stomach ulcer by part three. I just wanted to learn their approach to the main platter bearing design, the foundation upon which all the fancy other engineering rests.
The best point that is made in this presentation is at 31:45. Belt drive technologies are fundamentally limited by the compliance of the belt. It’s often said, but it is basis physics. Direct drive is the most accurate technology. @trackingangle929 did a fantastic demonstration recently that demonstrates the clear difference that timing makes in his comparison of the TechDAS and the OMA. ruclips.net/video/kdLbWQFdsPg/видео.html
@@gino3286 if the belt is made of rubber, it is simply a rubber band so yes. There have been a number of different materials tried, but ultimately this is a limitation of belt drive designs.
Nice interview and an interesting concept. But the "total accurate speed" of 33 and period 3 is not the full truth. In the chain of production the speed of the machines involved to cut the vinyl are not stable at all. Especially in the 50ies to 80ies. R2R during recording -> stable in speed to 100%? Don't think so. See Kind of Blue as an extreme example. Same to play the record for cutting especially on a different R2R. And the cutting engine for the vinyl itself also will not run perfectly with 33 and period 3. So the record will not be pressed with exact 33 and a 3rd at all. And if this flutters, what does a so stable speed of your machine helps? Agreement to that would mean, a turntable running stable by 0,01% will be more than ever needed. Cheers Stefan
@@mfr58 I claim the throne of the king of Spain! also, a belt can be a simple and cost effective mechanical frequency tuning device against transmitted motor noise.
I have trouble understanding how changes of speed at that level of precision could substantially alter the sound. Analog tape recorder engineers never bothered to spend 11 months callibrating their machines after all.
And to add I’m sure the cutting lathe this is based on didn’t have this level of accuracy. Great hobby that keeps those who can afford it to keep spending. 🤓
you understand correctly what one of these guys is trying to obscure, that human hearing did not evolve to be accurate. the evolutionary advantage was flight in the correct direction, even if what you thought you heard was not real.
if you have an electric motor, you will always have slowing down with varying resistance, because there is no rigid connection with primary mover. Only thing I know of which is close to perfect is hydraulic motor with very little compression of the oil, however, we are still at the mercy of its source of power which must be hydraulic pump which is close to perfect, however is driven by electric motor or gasoline engine and we are back at the root of the problem. Yes, you can try to compensate that, but it is always after the fact so it's never stable.
Hello @bastuskochany, here's Richard Krebs' reply: ' The virtual incompressibility of oil makes it an attractive drive option. The problem is that linear torque hydraulic motors are rare, bulky and employ noisy ball or taper roller bearings. Linear flow compensated pumps are even more rare. Then of course as you point out, we need a prime mover. Which would likely be an electric motor. So we are back to where we started. The solution is to use an exceptionally smooth and powerful direct drive motor then carefully apply feedback / feed forward.'
Why has every turntable designer for almost 40 years, chosen to completely ignore the obvious problem of record centering? Nakamichi solved this problem in the late 70s and early 80s with their TX-1000 and Dragon CT turntables, but nobody has tackled the problem since then. Simply look at a frequency over time graph of a turntable playing a stable test tone, and the problem becomes obvious. Even the tiniest amount of off centeredness, causes a huge 1.8 Hz cyclical wow, that completely swamps any speed instability from the platter drive system.
the dragon turntable was not that quiet , despite contemporary glowing reviews. a much simpler solution is for one to simply modify the hole until optimal position is achieved. most who bother with the practice use a pencil mark to show which side of the now enlarged hole goes against the spindle
The worst part of this is the cherry picked ‘science’ taken out of context. That becomes pseudo science, anti-science. You don’t have the foggiest idea what ‘double blind’ means. Sad, but par for the course in audio.
Hello Kuglepen64, here's Richard Krebs reply: 'You are correct, testing was actually single blind. There is an interesting little twist. The programmer did not have any expectation of a positive or negative outcome when he altered the program. He did, of course, know when he made no change.'
I've participated in so many blind and double blind tests (not just audio), and interestingly, despite expectation bias, there was no difference as to the results (qualitative ranking). What does affect blind tests is new versus old (i.e. if one of the samples is a known quantity, to the extent one may recognize and/or look out for it).
The utter SERIOUSNESS of their delivery is hysterical. It’s as if they are giving a briefing to the POTUS about an impending comet impact.
the target market is elitist snobs, so that's the pitch. Elitism and snobbery is a condition humans naturally fall into with extreme privilege.. Science has proven that just saying one test group is better than the other created the condition. I am told the primary consumers of very expensive audio are mostly middle eastern and Chinese rich guys. while all of vast wealth live isolated lives, perhaps the unique isolation built into each society is the uniting factor of the two primary consumer groups.
I thought exactly that. We all love music and we want it reproduced well but this is a case of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. Fools and their money are easily parted
I am the “famous reviewer” to whom Jonathan refers, with his usual derision even though I bought the prototype K3 that’s mechanically identical to the finished product. In my review I noted that the test record and app I use is essentially for entertainment purposes only yet the K3 still measured best. Jonathan’s cynical attitude towards magazine reviews and reviewers is clear. Again, the review made very clear that the K3 was and is the best sounding turntable I’ve yet heard, though adding the SAT arm to the rear mount improved the bottom octave performance. Note that he admits they don’t have the testing equipment the manufacturers of the motor assembly and motor controller have but in their case that’s fine and understood, but in the case of the reviewer who also doesn’t have such test gear it’s an opportunity for derision, but that’s been ongoing since the day I first met Weiss at a party. Being a pro at this, I ignored then and ignore now his contempt for me. I couldn’t care less. The turntable is the thing and Krebs designed a brilliant one.
Jonathan.... We love you.... And not to be ungrateful...... But let the man speak. He had fascinating things to say.
True, and thank you Blue, we always appreciate your comments. It's a tough one for Jonathan for sure...
@@oswaldsmillaudio and thank you for sharing your wonderful products.
I really enjoyed your interview with Mr. Krebs. Lots of fascinating information about turntable design.
thank you very much very informative and interesting!❤👍👍👍
That OMA K5 is an absolute beauty. I'm too poor to own one, but I'd love to hear some of my records on it one day.
This is truly fascinating. Individuals who are looking at physics and mechanics in an innovative way and applying ideas to produce startling audio products.
the essential rigidity needed is why Rega went with a hard ceramic platter in their top design. this designer had other design solutions, which he clearly stated. however, the pitchman insists his is the only solution, all other designs are inferior and must be eliminated from design considerations.
@@richardelliott8352 Most turntable designers have their own particular approaches. We now have the Wilson Benesch GMT 1, which Michael Fremer has reviewed. It might be the new benchmark. Either way, LP playback is improving, which is amazing considering how long digital has been established.
I agree that a direct drive or idle drive system will hold the speed in a more accurate way while playing. I would love to see what you can do with the idler drive system, they say it is to difficult to engineer one today but imagine with todays technology what we can accomplish :)
Love your passion and commirent to the hobby.
🤔
Is the study by the Rockefeller institute that you're talking about at 14:33 publicly available? If yes, can some link to it be provided? Otherwise, a really interesting dialogue full of technical details.
Gorgeous kit. What's the McPrice???
I’m so excited to see the two of you and this table
Would you share with us how the listening sessions were accomplished? Specifically, were the critical listeners using passive speakers and/or headphones? If passive, can you give us an idea of the listening room and the speakers involved? How about the electronics? Also, if headphones, can you give us an idea of the models and what type of headphone amplification? Thanks so much, Johnathan, Richard and your entire team for your continued desire to push the envelope in pursuit of sonic nirvana!!!
I shouldn't have omitted the possibility of your listening cohorts using active speakers, or hybrids as well. Looking forward to your insights on the listening journey with the K5. If you have any similar insights with the K3, please share them as well. Thanks again! BTW, I really appreciated your "Listening" series!
Hello Cedric, here's Richard Kreb's reply: 'During tests, my system consisted of the OMA K3 mule prototype (from which the final prototype was produced).- Schroeder CB L arm- Shelter Harmony cartridge-Custom, balanced output, tube preamp-PS audio BHK300 power amps- Speakers that were once Acoustat 2+2. Please do not project any experience you may have with 2+2s onto these units. They are fundamentally different.'
Jonathan, absolutely a wonderful, wonderful discussion. I wish it could have continued longer. However, here's my beef. You placed a record on the turntable and spun it just long enough to totally draw us in and suddenly it faded out. What's up with that? You rascal you. At least tell us the artist name and title. Thou extremely brief, it sounded fantastic on your system - even through RUclips! Can we please have a part 2 on the turntable design? Thanks Jonathan
The Artist is Duke Ellington The Queen's Suite: Sunset And Mocking bird. I would love to listen to this table.
Thank you so much Maurice. I too would love to hear that table, the design sounds so interesting and unique.
Love all of your passion on your products ❤
I won’t be giving up my belt drive table any time soon. 😎
the cost effectiveness and simplicity as a mechanical motor noise filter benefits me more than a speed stability beyond my desires or needs.
It's all good.But it is not available to a simple vinyl lover. So my Garrard 301 and commonwealth 12d turntable will serve me for a long time!
Absolutely fascinating and as is always the case with you none of the TV sales speak as we see from other high end companies but rather kilos of common sense and the ability do describe complex things so that idiots like me can go, "Oh, that makes so much sense, what has no one else thought of this way!"
I wonder, would this sort of damping work for speaker bases to stand on?
if you are truly an idiot, god help you around this guy. if not, you know a sales pitch is in among the all too usual audiophile version of actual science.
I thought the discussion of human hearing had serious factual flaws, which the engineer chose not to participate in. . first the choice of digital cut off frequencies was a manufacturing decision, not a limitation of scientific understandings, as it was, for whatever reason, presented.
more importantly, the discussion of human hearing completely avoided that human hearing is only subjective , that one can only know what one thinks they hear, which may or may not agree with reality.
of course considering that human hearing is only subjective, immediately questions the validity of such an extreme design as a sonic necessity and not just an ego stroke. an ego stroke can be a very valid product goal, as it is, for example, with high end wristwatches.
the pitchman all of sudden throws in , " double blind testing" in the middle of the conversation, but despite all the references to listening tests, I am left with the impression that no statistical analysis , which is essential to separate normal subjective hearing results from the actual reality of what was heard, was ever used, only what people thought they heard , was referenced as a result of listening tests. no results, after error was mathematically eliminated, as with actual double blind testing , seemed to be part of the conversation.
I could go on, but if this is only part one of three parts, I could get a stomach ulcer by part three. I just wanted to learn their approach to the main platter bearing design, the foundation upon which all the fancy other engineering rests.
The best point that is made in this presentation is at 31:45. Belt drive technologies are fundamentally limited by the compliance of the belt. It’s often said, but it is basis physics. Direct drive is the most accurate technology.
@trackingangle929 did a fantastic demonstration recently that demonstrates the clear difference that timing makes in his comparison of the TechDAS and the OMA. ruclips.net/video/kdLbWQFdsPg/видео.html
does the material from which the belt is made have an influence on compliance ? maybe some synthetic material could provide better performance ?
@@gino3286 if the belt is made of rubber, it is simply a rubber band so yes. There have been a number of different materials tried, but ultimately this is a limitation of belt drive designs.
@@8skywalker8 hi thank you very much indeed I asked because i have seen many high end turntable with belt like VPI
Nice interview and an interesting concept. But the "total accurate speed" of 33 and period 3 is not the full truth.
In the chain of production the speed of the machines involved to cut the vinyl are not stable at all. Especially in the 50ies to 80ies.
R2R during recording -> stable in speed to 100%? Don't think so. See Kind of Blue as an extreme example. Same to play the record for cutting especially on a different R2R. And the cutting engine for the vinyl itself also will not run perfectly with 33 and period 3.
So the record will not be pressed with exact 33 and a 3rd at all. And if this flutters, what does a so stable speed of your machine helps?
Agreement to that would mean, a turntable running stable by 0,01% will be more than ever needed.
Cheers
Stefan
Your argument makes complete sense...however they claim that the sound improved the tighter they controlled the speed of the turntable......
@@mfr58 I claim the throne of the king of Spain! also, a belt can be a simple and cost effective mechanical frequency tuning device against transmitted motor noise.
I have trouble understanding how changes of speed at that level of precision could substantially alter the sound. Analog tape recorder engineers never bothered to spend 11 months callibrating their machines after all.
And to add I’m sure the cutting lathe this is based on didn’t have this level of accuracy. Great hobby that keeps those who can afford it to keep spending. 🤓
you understand correctly what one of these guys is trying to obscure, that human hearing did not evolve to be accurate. the evolutionary advantage was flight in the correct direction, even if what you thought you heard was not real.
Technics sp 10 nuff said
if you have an electric motor, you will always have slowing down with varying resistance, because there is no rigid connection with primary mover. Only thing I know of which is close to perfect is hydraulic motor with very little compression of the oil, however, we are still at the mercy of its source of power which must be hydraulic pump which is close to perfect, however is driven by electric motor or gasoline engine and we are back at the root of the problem. Yes, you can try to compensate that, but it is always after the fact so it's never stable.
Hello @bastuskochany, here's Richard Krebs' reply: '
The virtual incompressibility of oil makes it an attractive drive option. The problem is that linear torque hydraulic motors are rare, bulky and employ noisy ball or taper roller bearings. Linear flow compensated pumps are even more rare. Then of course as you point out, we need a prime mover. Which would likely be an electric motor. So we are back to where we started. The solution is to use an exceptionally smooth and powerful direct drive motor then carefully apply feedback / feed forward.'
@@oswaldsmillaudio turntables have been driven with falling water , to eliminate the pump noise, but were never taken beyond a design exercise.
Why has every turntable designer for almost 40 years, chosen to completely ignore the obvious problem of record centering? Nakamichi solved this problem in the late 70s and early 80s with their TX-1000 and Dragon CT turntables, but nobody has tackled the problem since then.
Simply look at a frequency over time graph of a turntable playing a stable test tone, and the problem becomes obvious. Even the tiniest amount of off centeredness, causes a huge 1.8 Hz cyclical wow, that completely swamps any speed instability from the platter drive system.
the dragon turntable was not that quiet , despite contemporary glowing reviews. a much simpler solution is for one to simply modify the hole until optimal position is achieved. most who bother with the practice use a pencil mark to show which side of the now enlarged hole goes against the spindle
The worst part of this is the cherry picked ‘science’ taken out of context. That becomes pseudo science, anti-science. You don’t have the foggiest idea what ‘double blind’ means. Sad, but par for the course in audio.
Pseudo Science 101.. 😂
Hello Kuglepen64, here's Richard Krebs reply: 'You are correct, testing was actually single blind. There is an interesting little twist. The programmer did not have any expectation of a positive or negative outcome when he altered the program. He did, of course, know when he made no change.'
I've participated in so many blind and double blind tests (not just audio), and interestingly, despite expectation bias, there was no difference as to the results (qualitative ranking). What does affect blind tests is new versus old (i.e. if one of the samples is a known quantity, to the extent one may recognize and/or look out for it).
Hopefully you have drink some alcohol while you have spent time. Next time bring some children to listen and go to pub 😉
Turntable looks good 👍