I think the list is probably very indicative of character specialists vs character popularity. Ram is "mid-tier" because she has specialists, but is also very popular. This leads to the specialists winning a ton of games and many of the other players balancing it by losing a ton. This is in contrast to Potemkin as a "mid-tier": he has character specialists that play a ton but isn't insanely popular. This inflates his win rate, placing him higher than expected, but he also struggles a lot, evening him out around the middle. Then there's Chipp: high specialization coupled with many weaker players dropping him early because they die in 2 hits. This means the best players Chipp has are giving the most representation by far - making him top 2. At least this feels how the math is working out.
This would also explain how Bridget ended up where she did; being a very popular character from release, but in a sort of reverse of Chipp, she maintained a lot of casual, lower-level players because of her fun-factor, while the only top player rep that stuck with her was Diaphone, and even he's experimenting with Sin now. The vast bulk of her results are coming from the lower end instead of the upper, shown in the fact that the required ELO to classify as Top 100 with Bridget is so much lower than average.
My problem with your system is that, if a character is strong, you shouldn’t feel too bad about it, I would have suggested that against a strong character, the points you lose is divided by their relative strength and not amplified, because while beating them does reward you handsomely, you definitely shouldn’t punish them for losing to the best character in the game
The chipp zanuff thing actually makes a little bit of sense. The issue in his relevancy tends to come from what his kit is capable of versus the general mechanical environment of the game. And what I mean by that: It has insane combo potential, and the raw number of hits is impressive. The over all damage however, is nominally balanced, if a little low depending on who you ask. Versus any players from what I'll say is. Maybe floor 8/9 up however, everyone tends to have pretty consistent set play and game plans they're trying to execute on. And they have damage that isn't as low/more options, whereas Chipp has to play in rush down, and that's his ONLY option. The end result has probably created both a small Chipp player base, AND, Chipp Players who treat his skill set like musical instruments. I.E.: "You don't practice until you're perfect, you practice until you stop making mistakes." Creating this over all match up spread that skews his position, because the lack of players + high skill is creating a skewed data distribution.
Maths nerd here, what you're doing is essentially a simplified version of the Sonneborn-Berger score. If you want to do your analysis but fancier, here's what I'd do. For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning. These points go towards their base score. For example, if a character has a 36% chance of winning, they'll score 0.36 base points. Adding these up for all the matchups gives everyone's base scores, but we're not done yet! How do we reward strong counterpicks? Simple, we make a second score system that takes that into account. For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning multiplied by their opponent's base score. So, if we have the 36% matchup from earlier but the opponent was a strong character with 20 base points, they'll earn 7.2 points. We also add on the square of the character's base score. This is so strong characters don't get screwed over by the fact the mirror matchup can never be better and 0.5-0.5. Finally, we tally up these new points for every matchup and that's the total score!
Bridget is a super interesting result here, as I don’t agree she’s bad atm, but i definitely see how she got here. Difficult to optimise damage, a midrange character with reasonable hurtboxes, low health, a very unique gameplan and, as you said, a large player base. Any combination of these factors could’ve done this to our girl, but hey, let’s get her boosted for the jokes Patch Notes Update: Ladies and Gentlemen, we got em
@@Astray_pgmg Reasonable for FGs in general. In any other game, her mobility and range would make her fine, maybe even broken depending on the game, but with the disjoints present in Strive, she ended up a bit overtuned in the wrong direction, I think.
The 100th or so Bridget is around 1600 ELO. Top 100s for a char like Ky starts at 1850+ so average top 100 Bridget being much lower ELO than other Top 100 opponents probably affected a lot. Doesn't seem to be a lot of players at a high level as her and she is definitely really hard to play at a high level due to having to optimize all her combos, setplay, pressure, and mixup options.
Faust main here,completely expecting its him or pot Edit: YEAH BABY THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR, THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT. I play with 2 of my friends regularly besides going to tournaments and one of them mains ram and the other mains gio. Typically it goes ram beats faust, faust beats gio, gio beats ram. However no matter how bad my boy gets it, I still love my funny bag boy, especially since my secondary is Zato and, while I live playing him, he requires me to use 2 of my braincells Which is a big problem because I only have 1. Also, absolutely love these videos, so much research is calculated and a lot of these go super in depth. Always love coming back to these vids. Great job on these
@@TheJacoliexp I know, best part is that my friend plays nago and baiken when we play against each other and still complains about how busted faust is.
not quite so simple when the bridget is actually good and can bait 6p with rolling back dash cancel into a full counter hit combo or just continuing to pressure
My friend is a #62 Bridget on Rating Update (well, last time I checked he was anyway). From watching his games it feels like bridget doesnt have extremely bad matchups against most of the cast, she just has an extremely bad matchup against 6P
Testament is funny being so low cause they’re actually very strong right now. The thing is that they’re matchups require a lot of strategy required to tackle the matchups consistently. Especially against characters like Ky since stun dipper literally destroys testaments autopilot. And also having below average defense makes them more easily run over by characters with higher damage/return
I actually called the bridget reveal when you started listing the usual suspects- I really love playing her, but it can feel genuinely scary trying to start offense with her when 6P can ruin her whole career. That said, YOU ALL SAW IT, JACK-O IS THE MOST BALANCED CHARACTER IN STRIVE. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket for anyone complaining about silly Halloween girl.
Testament being so low makes a whole lot of sense, they are basically a Ramlethal who requires more set-up to get started and as a result not many people play them still wont stop my friends to complain about them tho.
You’re so underrated you have taught me so much about dbfz, ggst, and just fighting games as a whole. Keep doing what you’re doing. (I know I sound like a bot but I’m not so f@$k off)
Chipp is a sleeper bracket assassin CONFIRMED. Also keep that spreadsheet, because once the patch shakes up the power levels of the tiers you might wanna plug the new numbers in.
My guess for why bridget is struggling in this setting is due to her being just still fairly new to the point most of the top players havent fully solved her or settled on moving to her, while also from what I've generally heard, the consesus being she's mid-low tier. Which makes Sin being so high even weirder since he's so new, maybe because of some early games of people being knowledge checked on not knowing the matchup helped boost him?
Sin is way simpler imho, what's great about him was figured out pretty quickly and he doesn't seem to have relatively complicated strategies that I'm aware of. Brisket is technically a setplay character so I could see her being harder to break in
They've been out for months and I can't imagine that Bridget has such incredible depth that nobody has figured out how to play them properly. Imo Bridget was always loved because of the design and personality, their gameplay really isn't that incredible.
@@iminyourwalls8309 it took months for people to realize that nago was good and he doesn't seem like he has incredible depth. Also it took 20 years for somebody to win with Yoshi in smash Brothers so you know there's that.
I have a theory about brisket. Many casuals are picking up basket, and loosing because basment needs to be right 2-3 times more due to her low hp and guts. Add in her tricky combo game and 2 step neutral, casuals struggle to succeed with her.
Haven’t watched the vid yet, gonna guess testament. Testament’s victory condition of stain state really doesn’t give them the victory. Edit: Bridget makes perfect sense. She is a set play mix up with low damage. The other mix up characters all can go straight into their mix with no delay and get more value out of it.
I'm a Pot player and I already don't consider him to be THE worst so I kinda' was just along for the ride on this one, glad to see you're experiencing and possibly also having fun with making the video and testing this new format. Danganronpa music as BGM was a delight too. Also hi o/ and thank you for your video
I am totally using this to prove that I am godlike with testament. I always knew they were bottom tier and that I was just better than everyone else. This is the proper use of a tier list.
I wanna put up a more detailed explanation as to why Jacko beats Bridget so hard. The worst offender to Bridgets gameplan is Jackos Shields. Unlike axl, Bridget is a lot more predictable with her long range moves. Despite shield being really good against big ass pokes and whatnot, versus axl, its really hard to gauge when to shield versus him. Versus Bridget however, way too easy. Giving jacko an advantage constantly. Bridget has to put in an offence and stay super close range in order to have a good chance. If the jacko does not use shield, the matchup is suddenly normal. The threat of shields puts Bridget in such a scared situation. She cannot do anything, her moves are reactable to shield against. She has to go for a no-mixup mixup with a throw. And as a jacko who loves to use shield, I have a gameplan ready for that as well. Resulting in Bridget absolutely not able to do anything. You would think closer range characters would have a hard time versus shields, but the fact of the matter is, they wont throw out attacks so easily while bridget does. Same with testament to a degree, even Ram falls prey to shields. Yet she and other characters still have an in that keeps Jacko on her toes. Bridget does not. Literally, Bridgets best approach so far in my opinion is to burst versus jacko, and skate into jacko. Jacko does not have enough time to put down a minion and shield. If jacko bursts tho, she does. Goldlewis, a character who can 1-shot Jacko absolutely denies Goldlewis, and yet Goldlewis has some methods to bypass Jackos Shields. Il say it again. Bridget, cannot. Many other characters, yes. Bridget, no.
I'm honestly not surprised with how brisket ended up. Every single time I fight one I feel like they just get steamrolled. Seemed like a really fun character but never felt like they were strong
I don't even play guilty gear but Pot seems like the actual candidate from what I've seen so far. I mean you need to eat glue and perfectly calculate how to land only one good move that in your movelist.
The thing about Pot is that, while he's not that great, he IS a very simple character to play. He doesn't have a lot that he's trying to do, so once you know the few set-ups he has, all of your brain power gets to be funneled into watching and reacting to the opponent's habits. He's a prime character for letting the tippy top players that these stats are looking at skill-gap players near their level simply because the opponent almost always has more things to pay attention to in the match, which is probably skewing his W/L upwards.
A few weeks ago I checked out these MU charts and when I saw Bridget and went “oh. Oh hell nah I can’t take these seriously from a balance perspective”
I 100% firmly believe brisket is so low because of the wave of trans women who have never played a fighting game but love the basket so they walk into the flames
I think it's because, as you said about Bridget. She's a casual character. If casual players are fighting more seasoned players, this would definitely alter the spreadsheet results
In the year of our lord 2022, with all the tierlist videos in here, you're one of the few if not only ones that actually does a proper tier list. thank you+
Hey man I just wanted to say congrats on clocking in almost 700 hours, thats some real gamer shit that I'm not even close to competing with. Good job Gekko!
I play chipp and anji. chipp seems about right. When i lose i always feel like its a skill issue, because i have more options than the opponent. Usually though, i just cant adapt in matches because i die so quickly. have to constantly watch replays to figure out what was happening.
My initial guess for lowest was Faust, but he came up earlier in the video, along with Testament, another one I was suspicious might be low (and together two of my favorite three characters, alongside Ramlethal). So after those were eliminated, I tried to think of a character who might actually be lowest. Bridget occurred to me for a moment and I almost voted then, but I held back, thinking that I didn't have any actual evidence for that and from all I've heard she's pretty alright. I figured I must be wrong and decided to just keep watching to see who it actually is. Turns out it was actually Bridget. Well then. I wonder what's going on there, because, yeah, that seems odd.
I think it's just that Bridget doesn't really have any stable top player representation. The fact that the ELO required to count as a Top 100 Bridget is so much lower than the average means that the players filling out the lower end of her 100 have weaker win/loss ratios than the lower ends for most other characters, but unlike other characters that are typically consider weak like Faust and Anji, no Top Players stuck with her to balance out her results. The only ones were KizzieKay, who plays other characters all the time for youtube content, and Diaphone, and both of them have been focusing on Sin since he released.
Would love to see an update of this in a few months give or take, would be interesting to see how things have changed! Some bad characters have gotten some good changes and some formerly good characters got put in the forever box
If I were to guess, Ram is one of those characters whose broken stuff is relatively easy to use, so while she's busted at mid and high levels of play, once you hit the very top other players can use their characters more difficult broken stuff and make her less relevant. AKA, Ram being mid is a side effect of only looking at the top 100
@@timaragon well the consensus in America used to be that Nago was low tier. Then he was considered only top 5. He's only now being considered top because of his overwhelming tournament results and because of his online win rates. In fact most top players have been saying that tier lists were wrong and that the casuals were right. Furthermore in Japan the consensus is actually that Ram is mid tier which is accurate when compared to her online win rates and tournament results.
@@rexflores8461 zando winning the mixup, ram appearing in countless top 8s in tons of stacked tournaments, plenty of online tournament wins, etc. what are u talking abt, her results definitely back her up she's fundamentally an extremely solid pick because she has everything a character could possibly ask for. screen control, damage, defensive utility, meter gain and usage, mix, you name it, she has it (and most of the time has it in spades). even though she has gimmicks, she doesn't need to rely on them because her core kit is extremely strong at every level of play. she rewards solid play really well, and that makes her very difficult to fight. a lot of her interaction is rps based, but the reward is heavily skewed in her favour also japan thinking she's mid tier means nothing. japan thinks hc is mid tier, but most people agree that's just because japan isn't really using happy chaos as well as other regions
I think the reason Bridget is so low is because her top 100 players are worse players. The reason for that being that when she released, she was okay, not amazing and not terrible, so there wasn't much reason for super high level players to drop their characters and pick her up.
I think that an interesting way to maybe squeeze a little bit more accuracy out of this would to instead of giving the more popularly decided "op" characters a boost, you effect the numbers based on pick rate, so if you have a really good matchup against a highly picked character that you're more likely to come across randomly online, you'd have a higher rank, and lower for the opposite.
My genuine guess as to who bottom 1 is in this particular list, is Bridget. Her health and damage and reliance on mixups makes most of her matchups pretty volitile EDIT: fucking called it. I-no and Millia ALSO being so low speaks to how this method generally doesn't favor Brisket's archetype of "mix you into the dirt, but if you hit me once I'm dead" because that character archetype's match-ups will generally be SUUUPER volatile. This also makes Brisket a bad tournament character, which means she isn't played by a ton of top players which leads to more people around my skill level getting counted in the top 100
My guess was Axl cause he seemed to be the most plausible but Bridget actually makes a lot of sense. She's an easy character to pick up and a popular one so her players might be a bit more varied than some of the others? Idk that's just my guess though
Its really funny having tier discussions with my friends who are significantly less invested in the game than I am. I'm playing Pot (generally considered bad by everyone) and they'll tell you he's mid to high tier. A friend of mine plays Ram but refuses to block and kind of just flails far slash heavy slash and everyone thinks she's weak. I think its all about your perception and what you see out of other players that informs your own personal feelings. This is a more "scientific" approach but it's still colored by which top players are on which characters and popularity. How "solved" a character is also plays into this a ton too. HC was considered bad until steady aim loops were found
19:56 my guess is Pot…he’s my main, I’m new to GG and picked him cuz I thought he looked cool, finally decided to switch up and I’m loving Baiken! Edit: wtf!?!? Bridget!?!?!
so i usually just play with friends locally or online, and we have come to the conclusion that axl and sol are one of the strongest characters, whilst happy chaos is the weakest. my whole worldview was just shattered into pieces
I always knew I was hard carried by my main but 14 points wow but a think I try to remember when rating characters is the skill level a charachter like pot for example would mostly likely be top tier if in groep of players that never played a fighting game before but will fall the higher the skill level
Huh. Interesting... I mained Faust when I played, and kept hearing how bad he was in the tier lists. Doesn't look like his Match-ups have improved much.
Ironically I clicked on this video to see where Bedman, Asuka and Johnny were placed, but since this was made before their release, I figured I'd stick around anyway to watch this vid! Very fun watch 😂
I worked out the exact percentages according to the top 1000 players as of 1/22/2023 and the top 3 characters are GoldLewis #1(+2.4%), Axl #2(+2.1%), and JackO #3(+1.9%) and the bottom 3 characters are Bridget #22(-4.6%), Sin #21(-3.1%), and Happy Chaos #20(-2.6%). Edit: percent correction (The percent represents the average win rate advantage or disadvantages across the cast with data from the top 1000 players in each character and correcting based on elo rank) 1/21/2023
As a Bridget main, she absolutely isn't the worst character in the game However, I will admit she has some REALLY upsetting matchups, 5S isn't as disjointed as you'd think and it leads to some awkward looking hits where you're hit from the other side of the screen lol She's not bad, she's just weird, and as such it might lead to some strange information
@@caldineescogroft8831 She ain't as bad as Faust, I've played both a little and one is definitely a lot worse than the other Could be a cope though, I don't know much of the game's balance, so for all I know Bridget could genuinely be ass
@@kitkatiecat no, its because she have a terrible mach up agaist faust every time i see a bridget player they insta cancel the mach wen they see im a faust player
I'm confused why top 100 was chosen. When doing statistical analysis it is best to have a large sample sizes no? And top 1000 would still be representative of actually good players while having the population to smooth out the oddities that occur at very high level play. I think these results aren't very sensical because the data set is tiny for no reason.
It's the matches of the top 100, not just the players themselves. So you still have thousands of matches of data in any single matchup. Additionally, increasing that number actually favors more popular characters. As a larger player base for one character would mean that there are more top players at that level. So accounting for the playerbase size would probably be necessary if you start increasing that number. While just taking the top 100 should generally mean we are looking at the top players. If we start increasing that number, we could see lower skilled players skewing the results for less popular characters.
Because matchup tier lists generally only matter at the higher level of play. A person with around 2200-2400 elo rating could random pick and dominate a player of around 1500-1600 elo rating, but that doesn't mean the higher level players character has a good matchup against the lower one, since the difference between players is game knowledge and how well they can adapt. As Gecko mentioned in the video if a top100 player goes against top 1 happy chaos, its not really worth taking into account since the lower skilled player would have next to no chance of taking a game from the top player. Thats why I would argue that narrowing down the sample size would be even better since games by similar skilled players would only be taken into account.
21:27 Im a Jacko player and Bridget is one of the most annoying characters to deal with and Im supposed tp have a 7.5 - 2.5 matchup? What am I doing wrong? 😆
as someone who has started getting interested in strive, but doesn't have it yet, I find it funny that the two characters I were considering maining are also the two 'worst' in the game.
Im assuming faust and bridget. The thing with them is they aren't great but damn are they fun. They might not win you games but in those games youll be having a blast
why is it that people always look at only the best players when it comes to these tier lists? celestial floor only represent a very small minority of players, this is barely going to be relevant to anyone!
I’m surprised you were soo surprised at Chipp being high up, I mean sure it’s surprising that he’s number two here, but recent discourse has had most people thinking he’s high tier. Bridget certainly might be pretty bad to just off of risk reward, but she’s far better than -19. I don’t think there are a lot of good players playing Bridget and she isn’t one of the easier characters on the roster to pilot well. I also think the newness of Bridget is still hurting her rating update stats to some degree.
chipp and bridget, low damage speedy characters with no health. Except bridget has to go through like 5 extra hoops to do what chipp does. Im surprised bridget is that low, but im not surprised chipp has a high score.
@@darthhydreigon820 Sin is an obviously and straightforwardly strong character, Bridget is certainly both weaker and requires more effort to make work. Bridget is weak for sure, but not -19, worst in game weak I don't think.
See guys, Leffen was right, Zato is mid tier. EDIT: Bridget has low representation and tends to get damage diffed. Most top bridget players aren't even really bridget specialists, off rating update Bridget's top 10 has Diaphone twice, Mocchi, Hoochoo, and a few other names. Bridget's top player is ranked 98th overall. I don't want to say Bridget's top players are bad, but I don't REALLY think we've seen a character specialist grind her for the extended period like what we've with seen with most every other character. Anyone know if Hoochoo travels?
as an anji main (yes we exist) he's really fun he's just hard to kill with and can be punished easily but idfc ima still play him cuz he's fun and feels right to play
Whoever I'm playing at the moment is the worst character in the game, and whoever I'm playing against is the best character in the game, that's why I lose all the time, definetly not because of skill issue, no no.
I mean the win rate is only a part of what makes a character good, you would also have to consider pick rate, because the more a character is popular the more casuals are picking it, lowering the win rate
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I think the list is probably very indicative of character specialists vs character popularity. Ram is "mid-tier" because she has specialists, but is also very popular. This leads to the specialists winning a ton of games and many of the other players balancing it by losing a ton. This is in contrast to Potemkin as a "mid-tier": he has character specialists that play a ton but isn't insanely popular. This inflates his win rate, placing him higher than expected, but he also struggles a lot, evening him out around the middle.
Then there's Chipp: high specialization coupled with many weaker players dropping him early because they die in 2 hits. This means the best players Chipp has are giving the most representation by far - making him top 2.
At least this feels how the math is working out.
This would also explain how Bridget ended up where she did; being a very popular character from release, but in a sort of reverse of Chipp, she maintained a lot of casual, lower-level players because of her fun-factor, while the only top player rep that stuck with her was Diaphone, and even he's experimenting with Sin now. The vast bulk of her results are coming from the lower end instead of the upper, shown in the fact that the required ELO to classify as Top 100 with Bridget is so much lower than average.
Every time I find a potemkin on ladder I'm like "ah shit" cuz you know he has spent 1k hours knowing every frame of every move.
I was genuinely thinking that Potemkin was bottom 5 at best
This!
My problem with your system is that, if a character is strong, you shouldn’t feel too bad about it, I would have suggested that against a strong character, the points you lose is divided by their relative strength and not amplified, because while beating them does reward you handsomely, you definitely shouldn’t punish them for losing to the best character in the game
As a Faust main, I can absolutely agree we don't give a crap about how bad he is. We just like playing funni bag man lol
And also with him not being common, people don't understand what to do against him
I HATE FAUST'S CROUCH RAHHHHHHHHH
i love fighting him
ill drop any combo when its a legit foot race to the horn on the floor sometimes lol😂
@@pablitotorres8254same
WHEN DID KIRBY HAVE A KNIFE
The chipp zanuff thing actually makes a little bit of sense. The issue in his relevancy tends to come from what his kit is capable of versus the general mechanical environment of the game. And what I mean by that: It has insane combo potential, and the raw number of hits is impressive.
The over all damage however, is nominally balanced, if a little low depending on who you ask. Versus any players from what I'll say is. Maybe floor 8/9 up however, everyone tends to have pretty consistent set play and game plans they're trying to execute on. And they have damage that isn't as low/more options, whereas Chipp has to play in rush down, and that's his ONLY option.
The end result has probably created both a small Chipp player base, AND, Chipp Players who treat his skill set like musical instruments. I.E.: "You don't practice until you're perfect, you practice until you stop making mistakes." Creating this over all match up spread that skews his position, because the lack of players + high skill is creating a skewed data distribution.
And he is played by the president
@@arrownaut Joe Biden doesn't play this game
@@Thee_Znutz ...not yet.
@@Thee_Znutz R/whooosh
@@Thee_Znutz Bill Clinton sure as hell does...
Maths nerd here, what you're doing is essentially a simplified version of the Sonneborn-Berger score.
If you want to do your analysis but fancier, here's what I'd do.
For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning. These points go towards their base score. For example, if a character has a 36% chance of winning, they'll score 0.36 base points.
Adding these up for all the matchups gives everyone's base scores, but we're not done yet! How do we reward strong counterpicks? Simple, we make a second score system that takes that into account.
For each matchup, the characters score points equal to their chance of winning multiplied by their opponent's base score. So, if we have the 36% matchup from earlier but the opponent was a strong character with 20 base points, they'll earn 7.2 points.
We also add on the square of the character's base score. This is so strong characters don't get screwed over by the fact the mirror matchup can never be better and 0.5-0.5.
Finally, we tally up these new points for every matchup and that's the total score!
Very interesting. Now I kinda wanna write a simple algorithm to solve this table for each character.
@@nouvelle147 if you do ever get around to doing that you should post your findings. That would be interesting to look at
@@sladevalen I have some spare time tomorrow, I'll try to do it. Will probably make a post on the subreddit
@@nouvelle147
Did you do it?
@@nouvelle147 We must know!
There was a missed opportunity to make a lab coat android21 while you were on the lab coat
Bridget is a super interesting result here, as I don’t agree she’s bad atm, but i definitely see how she got here. Difficult to optimise damage, a midrange character with reasonable hurtboxes, low health, a very unique gameplan and, as you said, a large player base. Any combination of these factors could’ve done this to our girl, but hey, let’s get her boosted for the jokes
Patch Notes Update: Ladies and Gentlemen, we got em
6p and KSMH hurtboxes is reasonable?
@@Astray_pgmg Reasonable for FGs in general. In any other game, her mobility and range would make her fine, maybe even broken depending on the game, but with the disjoints present in Strive, she ended up a bit overtuned in the wrong direction, I think.
@@H1_R3Z too balanced for Strive
Alright, let me amend that: Reasonable hurtboxes by Strive’s standards
The 100th or so Bridget is around 1600 ELO. Top 100s for a char like Ky starts at 1850+ so average top 100 Bridget being much lower ELO than other Top 100 opponents probably affected a lot. Doesn't seem to be a lot of players at a high level as her and she is definitely really hard to play at a high level due to having to optimize all her combos, setplay, pressure, and mixup options.
Faust main here,completely expecting its him or pot
Edit: YEAH BABY THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR, THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT. I play with 2 of my friends regularly besides going to tournaments and one of them mains ram and the other mains gio. Typically it goes ram beats faust, faust beats gio, gio beats ram. However no matter how bad my boy gets it, I still love my funny bag boy, especially since my secondary is Zato and, while I live playing him, he requires me to use 2 of my braincells Which is a big problem because I only have 1.
Also, absolutely love these videos, so much research is calculated and a lot of these go super in depth. Always love coming back to these vids. Great job on these
Yeah same
I'm taking a screenshot of this and sending it to my friend who thinks that faust is absolutely broken lol.
@@wetnamE trust me, faust is absolutely one of the worst characters in the game, bar none
@@TheJacoliexp I know, best part is that my friend plays nago and baiken when we play against each other and still complains about how busted faust is.
@@TheJacoliexp faust is the best character in the game
I really enjoy playing against Bridgets. Using 6P has never been more fun.
Now here's a question to you, do you enjoy 2S into your knees? Or 63214P breaking your ribs?
fr. just 6p and dp thru everything lol
not quite so simple when the bridget is actually good and can bait 6p with rolling back dash cancel into a full counter hit combo or just continuing to pressure
@@MrSupersayanguy against most characters a well timed j.k will beat 6p plus you have a built in 6p bait with j.236k
C O U N T E R
My friend is a #62 Bridget on Rating Update (well, last time I checked he was anyway).
From watching his games it feels like bridget doesnt have extremely bad matchups against most of the cast, she just has an extremely bad matchup against 6P
Bridgets when their opponent has a 6p 💀
Brisket main here half her good oki and corner pressure is super weak to 6p
Testament is funny being so low cause they’re actually very strong right now. The thing is that they’re matchups require a lot of strategy required to tackle the matchups consistently. Especially against characters like Ky since stun dipper literally destroys testaments autopilot. And also having below average defense makes them more easily run over by characters with higher damage/return
Both Testament and Bridget really aren't as bad as the matchup spread makes them seem imo
I had the hands ready when you hinted Pot at being bottom, leave us glue eaters command grab in peace lmao
I actually called the bridget reveal when you started listing the usual suspects- I really love playing her, but it can feel genuinely scary trying to start offense with her when 6P can ruin her whole career. That said, YOU ALL SAW IT, JACK-O IS THE MOST BALANCED CHARACTER IN STRIVE. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket for anyone complaining about silly Halloween girl.
Helloween* Girl
She's broken now
@@VEXF0R mathematically 50% :) lol
having my only character played in the tower being faust made me decide tiers aren't real
Testament being so low makes a whole lot of sense, they are basically a Ramlethal who requires more set-up to get started and as a result not many people play them still wont stop my friends to complain about them tho.
You’re so underrated you have taught me so much about dbfz, ggst, and just fighting games as a whole. Keep doing what you’re doing. (I know I sound like a bot but I’m not so f@$k off)
Isn't that exactly what a bot would say?
Chipp is a sleeper bracket assassin CONFIRMED. Also keep that spreadsheet, because once the patch shakes up the power levels of the tiers you might wanna plug the new numbers in.
My guess for why bridget is struggling in this setting is due to her being just still fairly new to the point most of the top players havent fully solved her or settled on moving to her, while also from what I've generally heard, the consesus being she's mid-low tier. Which makes Sin being so high even weirder since he's so new, maybe because of some early games of people being knowledge checked on not knowing the matchup helped boost him?
Sin is way simpler imho, what's great about him was figured out pretty quickly and he doesn't seem to have relatively complicated strategies that I'm aware of. Brisket is technically a setplay character so I could see her being harder to break in
They've been out for months and I can't imagine that Bridget has such incredible depth that nobody has figured out how to play them properly. Imo Bridget was always loved because of the design and personality, their gameplay really isn't that incredible.
He will forever be femboy to me an the Yoyo is not a tool of war but of wholesome
@Senritsu} {Jumpsuit And she will be trans to a large majority of the playerbase and to everyone on the Guilty Gear team.
@@iminyourwalls8309 it took months for people to realize that nago was good and he doesn't seem like he has incredible depth. Also it took 20 years for somebody to win with Yoshi in smash Brothers so you know there's that.
I have a theory about brisket. Many casuals are picking up basket, and loosing because basment needs to be right 2-3 times more due to her low hp and guts. Add in her tricky combo game and 2 step neutral, casuals struggle to succeed with her.
This list only looked at top players so lower players weren’t considered
Haven’t watched the vid yet, gonna guess testament. Testament’s victory condition of stain state really doesn’t give them the victory.
Edit: Bridget makes perfect sense. She is a set play mix up with low damage. The other mix up characters all can go straight into their mix with no delay and get more value out of it.
I'm a Pot player and I already don't consider him to be THE worst so I kinda' was just along for the ride on this one, glad to see you're experiencing and possibly also having fun with making the video and testing this new format. Danganronpa music as BGM was a delight too. Also hi o/ and thank you for your video
As a Faust player, i completely disagreed with that chart. Faust is only in 2nd worse place because the Gods are feeling sad
I am totally using this to prove that I am godlike with testament. I always knew they were bottom tier and that I was just better than everyone else. This is the proper use of a tier list.
Yes!
I love the use of Ace Attourney music lol
goddamit brisket nation we need to catch up
I wanna put up a more detailed explanation as to why Jacko beats Bridget so hard.
The worst offender to Bridgets gameplan is Jackos Shields.
Unlike axl, Bridget is a lot more predictable with her long range moves. Despite shield being really good against big ass pokes and whatnot, versus axl, its really hard to gauge when to shield versus him. Versus Bridget however, way too easy. Giving jacko an advantage constantly. Bridget has to put in an offence and stay super close range in order to have a good chance. If the jacko does not use shield, the matchup is suddenly normal.
The threat of shields puts Bridget in such a scared situation. She cannot do anything, her moves are reactable to shield against. She has to go for a no-mixup mixup with a throw. And as a jacko who loves to use shield, I have a gameplan ready for that as well. Resulting in Bridget absolutely not able to do anything.
You would think closer range characters would have a hard time versus shields, but the fact of the matter is, they wont throw out attacks so easily while bridget does. Same with testament to a degree, even Ram falls prey to shields. Yet she and other characters still have an in that keeps Jacko on her toes. Bridget does not.
Literally, Bridgets best approach so far in my opinion is to burst versus jacko, and skate into jacko. Jacko does not have enough time to put down a minion and shield. If jacko bursts tho, she does.
Goldlewis, a character who can 1-shot Jacko absolutely denies Goldlewis, and yet Goldlewis has some methods to bypass Jackos Shields. Il say it again. Bridget, cannot.
Many other characters, yes. Bridget, no.
I got pissed after being locked down by Jackos minions at full screen for 20 minutes a few hours ago
@@DeertickDaniel That is the better description to hate jacko ;D
Enjoyed this style of video. Made me laugh. Good stuff
Would love to see this method being applied to seasaon 3 stuff now. Great and interesting vid! Getting into GGST atm and love your channel a lot :D
17:18 the person you're fighting is called Amongus enjoyer 💀
As a certified Potemkin buster I got scared for a sec
I'm honestly not surprised with how brisket ended up. Every single time I fight one I feel like they just get steamrolled. Seemed like a really fun character but never felt like they were strong
I don't even play guilty gear but Pot seems like the actual candidate from what I've seen so far. I mean you need to eat glue and perfectly calculate how to land only one good move that in your movelist.
The thing about Pot is that, while he's not that great, he IS a very simple character to play. He doesn't have a lot that he's trying to do, so once you know the few set-ups he has, all of your brain power gets to be funneled into watching and reacting to the opponent's habits. He's a prime character for letting the tippy top players that these stats are looking at skill-gap players near their level simply because the opponent almost always has more things to pay attention to in the match, which is probably skewing his W/L upwards.
@@H1_R3Z I love to watch Potemkin, always makes me laughing at how simple he punishes bad habits😆
@@H1_R3Z this is actually why i started playing pot. It made me slow down and learn to use my opponents habits against them
I'm a Faust main, and I'm also a noob. I was screwed from the select screen.
Man the Danganronpa and Ace Attorney music in the background really adds a lot!
A few weeks ago I checked out these MU charts and when I saw Bridget and went “oh. Oh hell nah I can’t take these seriously from a balance perspective”
Like wtf , crazy amount of work. Great vid
I 100% firmly believe brisket is so low because of the wave of trans women who have never played a fighting game but love the basket so they walk into the flames
Wtf lol.
He mentioned that statistics are from the top players, so no newbies are involved in the chart
@@nouvelle147 🤓
@@amp7711 You're very mature
@@nouvelle147 you're a very big nerd
I think it's because, as you said about Bridget. She's a casual character. If casual players are fighting more seasoned players, this would definitely alter the spreadsheet results
Isnt it based on top 100 tho
he*
@@Arbelik I think she transitioned? I went with the pronouns Gekko went with
@@arrownaut doesn't mean he was born without a pp. Everyone can call themselves how they want, but there is this thing called biology and nature
@@Arbelik I'm not really an expert on this. It confuses me a bit, so I just went with what Gekko said
Love the background music choice
You should link the spreadsheet. It would be cool to check out.
In the year of our lord 2022, with all the tierlist videos in here, you're one of the few if not only ones that actually does a proper tier list. thank you+
Hey man I just wanted to say congrats on clocking in almost 700 hours, thats some real gamer shit that I'm not even close to competing with. Good job Gekko!
I play chipp and anji. chipp seems about right. When i lose i always feel like its a skill issue, because i have more options than the opponent. Usually though, i just cant adapt in matches because i die so quickly. have to constantly watch replays to figure out what was happening.
My initial guess for lowest was Faust, but he came up earlier in the video, along with Testament, another one I was suspicious might be low (and together two of my favorite three characters, alongside Ramlethal). So after those were eliminated, I tried to think of a character who might actually be lowest. Bridget occurred to me for a moment and I almost voted then, but I held back, thinking that I didn't have any actual evidence for that and from all I've heard she's pretty alright. I figured I must be wrong and decided to just keep watching to see who it actually is.
Turns out it was actually Bridget. Well then. I wonder what's going on there, because, yeah, that seems odd.
I think it's just that Bridget doesn't really have any stable top player representation. The fact that the ELO required to count as a Top 100 Bridget is so much lower than the average means that the players filling out the lower end of her 100 have weaker win/loss ratios than the lower ends for most other characters, but unlike other characters that are typically consider weak like Faust and Anji, no Top Players stuck with her to balance out her results. The only ones were KizzieKay, who plays other characters all the time for youtube content, and Diaphone, and both of them have been focusing on Sin since he released.
As long as best girl Bridget isn't bottom one I'll be happy
Womp womp
can we have an updated version, pleeease...
Holy fuck he's handsome!
FU K I'm straight
...FU K!
Would love to see an update of this in a few months give or take, would be interesting to see how things have changed! Some bad characters have gotten some good changes and some formerly good characters got put in the forever box
As a ky player im happy that he is so high in this list it gives me confidence in my ky
Chipp players: That is Bullshit Blazing!
If I were to guess, Ram is one of those characters whose broken stuff is relatively easy to use, so while she's busted at mid and high levels of play, once you hit the very top other players can use their characters more difficult broken stuff and make her less relevant. AKA, Ram being mid is a side effect of only looking at the top 100
She's more so just broken at the low to intermediate level of play imo
@@rexflores8461 Yet the consensus of nearly every pro player is that she's top 3 in the game even Ramlethal mains like SQ admit that.
@@timaragon well the consensus in America used to be that Nago was low tier. Then he was considered only top 5. He's only now being considered top because of his overwhelming tournament results and because of his online win rates. In fact most top players have been saying that tier lists were wrong and that the casuals were right. Furthermore in Japan the consensus is actually that Ram is mid tier which is accurate when compared to her online win rates and tournament results.
@@rexflores8461 zando winning the mixup, ram appearing in countless top 8s in tons of stacked tournaments, plenty of online tournament wins, etc. what are u talking abt, her results definitely back her up
she's fundamentally an extremely solid pick because she has everything a character could possibly ask for. screen control, damage, defensive utility, meter gain and usage, mix, you name it, she has it (and most of the time has it in spades). even though she has gimmicks, she doesn't need to rely on them because her core kit is extremely strong at every level of play. she rewards solid play really well, and that makes her very difficult to fight. a lot of her interaction is rps based, but the reward is heavily skewed in her favour
also japan thinking she's mid tier means nothing. japan thinks hc is mid tier, but most people agree that's just because japan isn't really using happy chaos as well as other regions
I think the reason Bridget is so low is because her top 100 players are worse players. The reason for that being that when she released, she was okay, not amazing and not terrible, so there wasn't much reason for super high level players to drop their characters and pick her up.
Thx for helpin me get into Strive
I think that an interesting way to maybe squeeze a little bit more accuracy out of this would to instead of giving the more popularly decided "op" characters a boost, you effect the numbers based on pick rate, so if you have a really good matchup against a highly picked character that you're more likely to come across randomly online, you'd have a higher rank, and lower for the opposite.
sooo, can you make an updated version of this?
My genuine guess as to who bottom 1 is in this particular list, is Bridget. Her health and damage and reliance on mixups makes most of her matchups pretty volitile
EDIT: fucking called it. I-no and Millia ALSO being so low speaks to how this method generally doesn't favor Brisket's archetype of "mix you into the dirt, but if you hit me once I'm dead" because that character archetype's match-ups will generally be SUUUPER volatile. This also makes Brisket a bad tournament character, which means she isn't played by a ton of top players which leads to more people around my skill level getting counted in the top 100
P.S. Daisuke pls buff Brisket
Id love to see you do this again it's entertaining to watch. Also your voice reminds me of rabbidluigi
My guess was Axl cause he seemed to be the most plausible but Bridget actually makes a lot of sense. She's an easy character to pick up and a popular one so her players might be a bit more varied than some of the others? Idk that's just my guess though
this vid is pretty outdated, bridget is rather strong right now
You all realize this video was before a major balance patch right? Apart from entertainment value it has nothing to do with anything.
Its really funny having tier discussions with my friends who are significantly less invested in the game than I am. I'm playing Pot (generally considered bad by everyone) and they'll tell you he's mid to high tier. A friend of mine plays Ram but refuses to block and kind of just flails far slash heavy slash and everyone thinks she's weak.
I think its all about your perception and what you see out of other players that informs your own personal feelings. This is a more "scientific" approach but it's still colored by which top players are on which characters and popularity. How "solved" a character is also plays into this a ton too. HC was considered bad until steady aim loops were found
Oh hell yeah this filming format was very fun tho
4:52 "He was about a week old". And he hadn't been in the game long either.
19:56 my guess is Pot…he’s my main, I’m new to GG and picked him cuz I thought he looked cool, finally decided to switch up and I’m loving Baiken!
Edit: wtf!?!? Bridget!?!?!
so i usually just play with friends locally or online, and we have come to the conclusion that axl and sol are one of the strongest characters, whilst happy chaos is the weakest. my whole worldview was just shattered into pieces
I always knew I was hard carried by my main but 14 points wow
but a think I try to remember when rating characters is the skill level
a charachter like pot for example would mostly likely be top tier if in groep of players that never played a fighting game before but will fall the higher the skill level
Sick, the 3 characters I like the most, I-no, Anji and Bridget are all here. WHAT THE FUCK IS MY TASTE????
Decent may I remind you that this tierlist says that pot and Leo are same level
@@arandomguyontheinternet2308 Yeah I know it's not truly representative, everyone knows Pot is top 1.
@@stevetheblobman pot players are built too differently to be on the same tier list as the rest of us
Happy Chaos of course
Huh. Interesting... I mained Faust when I played, and kept hearing how bad he was in the tier lists. Doesn't look like his Match-ups have improved much.
Ironically I clicked on this video to see where Bedman, Asuka and Johnny were placed, but since this was made before their release, I figured I'd stick around anyway to watch this vid! Very fun watch 😂
You are not alone in your Ky opinions
If there are no Ky haters left in the world I am dead
Better question where the hell is bedman??
Unless they changed the backstory, I thought Bridget was a boy but raised as a girl. IIRC Testament is a dude as well.
No, no, no, and no
Testament's enby, bridget's trans
I worked out the exact percentages according to the top 1000 players as of 1/22/2023 and the top 3 characters are GoldLewis #1(+2.4%), Axl #2(+2.1%), and JackO #3(+1.9%) and the bottom 3 characters are Bridget #22(-4.6%), Sin #21(-3.1%), and Happy Chaos #20(-2.6%).
Edit: percent correction (The percent represents the average win rate advantage or disadvantages across the cast with data from the top 1000 players in each character and correcting based on elo rank) 1/21/2023
As a Bridget main, she absolutely isn't the worst character in the game
However, I will admit she has some REALLY upsetting matchups, 5S isn't as disjointed as you'd think and it leads to some awkward looking hits where you're hit from the other side of the screen lol
She's not bad, she's just weird, and as such it might lead to some strange information
As a faust main i can confirm that this coment is cope
@@caldineescogroft8831 She ain't as bad as Faust, I've played both a little and one is definitely a lot worse than the other
Could be a cope though, I don't know much of the game's balance, so for all I know Bridget could genuinely be ass
@@kitkatiecat no, its because she have a terrible mach up agaist faust every time i see a bridget player they insta cancel the mach wen they see im a faust player
@@caldineescogroft8831 fr? never been against one since they're so rare lol
@@kitkatiecat faust do be out here reaching for the heavens with his 6P and crouching under bridgets pokes.
I am not a bridget main but I will never not love that absolutely every person in the world has a different name for biscuit
It made me happy to hear chipp was so high on the lists, I love his fast attack style.
Goood job, very interesting!
I'm confused why top 100 was chosen. When doing statistical analysis it is best to have a large sample sizes no? And top 1000 would still be representative of actually good players while having the population to smooth out the oddities that occur at very high level play. I think these results aren't very sensical because the data set is tiny for no reason.
More sample size isn’t always better. Ideally he’ll only look at top 10 for each character.
It's the matches of the top 100, not just the players themselves.
So you still have thousands of matches of data in any single matchup.
Additionally, increasing that number actually favors more popular characters. As a larger player base for one character would mean that there are more top players at that level.
So accounting for the playerbase size would probably be necessary if you start increasing that number.
While just taking the top 100 should generally mean we are looking at the top players. If we start increasing that number, we could see lower skilled players skewing the results for less popular characters.
Because matchup tier lists generally only matter at the higher level of play. A person with around 2200-2400 elo rating could random pick and dominate a player of around 1500-1600 elo rating, but that doesn't mean the higher level players character has a good matchup against the lower one, since the difference between players is game knowledge and how well they can adapt. As Gecko mentioned in the video if a top100 player goes against top 1 happy chaos, its not really worth taking into account since the lower skilled player would have next to no chance of taking a game from the top player.
Thats why I would argue that narrowing down the sample size would be even better since games by similar skilled players would only be taken into account.
21:27 Im a Jacko player and Bridget is one of the most annoying characters to deal with and Im supposed tp have a 7.5 - 2.5 matchup? What am I doing wrong? 😆
Me who just got the game and is learning Testament and I-no: "🥲 pain it is then"
Gecko really said "yo, block this mix" and threw this at us
My guess from the start of the video was either Faust or Goldlewis (and I say that as a Faust main).
Did not see that coming.
as someone who has started getting interested in strive, but doesn't have it yet, I find it funny that the two characters I were considering maining are also the two 'worst' in the game.
Im assuming faust and bridget. The thing with them is they aren't great but damn are they fun. They might not win you games but in those games youll be having a blast
I called Ky for third place as a joke wtf
Edit: I GUESSED BRIDGET FOR LAST PLACE AS A JOKE TOO WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING
Give her back her Yo-Yo Roger moves and then Bridget will be ballin
why is it that people always look at only the best players when it comes to these tier lists? celestial floor only represent a very small minority of players, this is barely going to be relevant to anyone!
We should get another one of these at the end of season 3
This dude is handsome why doesnt he make more videos infront of the green screen nowadays?
I play testament and thought they were atleast mid tier so bottom 5 is a big surprise.
Bridget has every tool but damage...
It’s difficult to play her when the risk reward for her is so skewed at least most of her mixes are safe and can even be reset
I’m surprised you were soo surprised at Chipp being high up, I mean sure it’s surprising that he’s number two here, but recent discourse has had most people thinking he’s high tier.
Bridget certainly might be pretty bad to just off of risk reward, but she’s far better than -19. I don’t think there are a lot of good players playing Bridget and she isn’t one of the easier characters on the roster to pilot well. I also think the newness of Bridget is still hurting her rating update stats to some degree.
I was thinking the same, I think Chipp is very strong and my impression was most people agree.
chipp and bridget, low damage speedy characters with no health. Except bridget has to go through like 5 extra hoops to do what chipp does. Im surprised bridget is that low, but im not surprised chipp has a high score.
but i mean sin is like 7th while bridget is dead last
@@darthhydreigon820 Sin is an obviously and straightforwardly strong character, Bridget is certainly both weaker and requires more effort to make work. Bridget is weak for sure, but not -19, worst in game weak I don't think.
Dang, should have commented my guess. I was so on the fence but Bridget was gonna be my guess
I had a feeling it was Brisket and there it was.
See guys, Leffen was right, Zato is mid tier.
EDIT: Bridget has low representation and tends to get damage diffed. Most top bridget players aren't even really bridget specialists, off rating update Bridget's top 10 has Diaphone twice, Mocchi, Hoochoo, and a few other names. Bridget's top player is ranked 98th overall. I don't want to say Bridget's top players are bad, but I don't REALLY think we've seen a character specialist grind her for the extended period like what we've with seen with most every other character. Anyone know if Hoochoo travels?
It's obviously Happy Chaos
as an anji main (yes we exist) he's really fun he's just hard to kill with and can be punished easily but idfc ima still play him cuz he's fun and feels right to play
i don't even play strive.. (last one was midnight carnival) but i do love your videos about ggx xD.
BRIDGET?! THATS LIKE MY WORST MATCH
What's the list of background music used in this video? Sounds like I've heard of them before
Whoever I'm playing at the moment is the worst character in the game, and whoever I'm playing against is the best character in the game, that's why I lose all the time, definetly not because of skill issue, no no.
I mean the win rate is only a part of what makes a character good, you would also have to consider pick rate, because the more a character is popular the more casuals are picking it, lowering the win rate