"You're castrating them, you're amputating their breasts, and you're not even asking them why". That's the correct way to describe puberty blockers, top surgery, and gender affirmative care.
That was fantastic. I’m sorry to say that despite following this issue closely for 5 years i’d never come cross Dr Az. More podcasts please Arty you’re a great interviewer.
For reasons that should be obvious, I’m glad you brought up the music as subculture issue. Teenagers of my era learned a few guitar chords and started a band to stand out. I made a lot of silly decisions in those days but mostly in regard to bizarre clothing and hair dye. Things that can be easily abandoned once the reality of adult life sets in.
Thank you Arty for introducing me to this wonderful man! He was fantastic. I’ll be showing various friends this interview. I hope you’re having a truly lovely time in the UK. Wish you lived over here X
Thank you both. This is a great conversation. And I finally learned why something bugging was me. I am almost a septuagenarian (Punk Rock goth-ish). Thank you for explaining why music is no longer as important. and how it was replaced by social media. Makes so much sense. And also makes me feel less guilty about not liking pop music (it all sounds like cartoon Disney toys singing for a commercial to me but then again ridiculous love ballads are not my cup of tea) If anyone has any suggestions for current bands let me know Thanks again for the great conversation
I do so many “masculine” things. But because I am a woman, I don’t think of these as “masculine” things or of myself as having “masculine” traits. I am a doctor, and I have had a very few transsexual patients through a career that has spanned decades. “Back in the day” it took a very long time for gender-dysphoric adults to get to the point of transition. Bring back the Lesbians, for the love of heaven!
Such a telling point re paucity of lesbian role models. Martina Navratilova and Ellen are probably the only ones most people can name, and none under 40 years old. Homophobia is still rife, but does Stonewall care?
I wish people would stop using words like "feminine" and "masculine" to describe personality. If we want to say a girl is tough, we say that girl is tough. If we want to say a boy is delicate or moves differently from other boys, we say that boy is delicate or moves differently from other boys. Associate toughness with masculinity is indirectly associating toughness with maleness.
I love Az! Thanks for this Arty. Az has great moral fortitude to make this stand against the gender ideology cult. If only he could of ran the GIDS in the UK, we’d have a more healthy approach to gender dysphoria
Great interview Arty, really interesting and fantastic that a "professional" person that absolutely knows what he's talking about can express his views freely. I might have to look up the Dr's book now!
Great discussion. I love the 'Goth 5' comment! I am so glad I had punk rock to submerge myself into, otherwise I don't know what I would have done with all my insecurities and teenage angst.
Excellent interview with many useful and clear distinctions regarding what is currently included, indiscriminately, under the 'trans' banner. The Goth identity evolution parallel with ROGD is excellent.
Drag is a sub group of transvestitism in that they get off on the performance. Drag refers to women as fish and use the acronym CUNT to describe what they do. Drag is not an attack on gender norms it's a mocking performance of womanhood in a way that would be classed as offensive and a hate crime were it to be done on the grounds of race instead of gender.
Being trans isn't the issue, the issue is that a subset of trans and their allies don't know who to behave and communicate in an adult manner. But for some reason, this type of sociopathic bullying behavior is tolerated in the online world and sane people capitulate without a fight. And it's not just the trans sphere, it is everything from cultural appropriation to fill in the blank. There is no human reason to act in such an extreme way about these things to the point of cancelling people and ruining lives, that's severely disordered behaviour. The people that are the heros on Twitter are probably friendless outcasts in real life, because no one wants to be around such toxicity.
the left-ish/soft left/socially liberal section of the ruling class have very enthusiastically gotten on board with the cancel culture which was previously enthusiastically used by the McCarthyite, pro-war right. Now everyone loves to cancel others!
people who have been bullied in mainstream life sometimes become the biggest bullies in subculture communities. Observed it in the punk scene in the early 2000's, and this seems very similar to me, just online so it's amplified
Youre kinda right,I used to be one of those mean people, because people online were mean to me. I thought they were supposed to be good people, I didn’t have any friends to snap me back to reality. Also, school never warned me that people would peer pressure me into being a “good person”, I was prepared to say no to drugs, I wasn’t prepared for the guilting and shaming. I got duped into believing the whole cultural appropriation thing too. I’ve noticed its strongest proponents are monoracial people or people with monoracial identities(mixed people who believe in the one drop rule). They don’t consider mutts like me or the fact that people adopt eachothers culture when they marry. It never even fit my beliefs in the first place. If arroz con gandules became a popular food, id be ecstatic.
That was a great interview. You both explained the concepts in clear language that is easy for even the uninitiated in the 'gender wars' to understand. You picked up on something I've always thought: the subculture element and the fact that modern music is pretty crap. Coming from the punk/goth esthetic of the 80s myself and finding my 'tribe' through shared musical tastes. I often got bangers thrown and insults at me. I was pretty confident and thought, 'F you!! If you think I look outrageous this weekend, wait till next weekend!!'. Musical fashion/videos today are over-sexualised, or the lyrics are misogynistic so I can well understand how young girls want to escape from those images and expectations by becoming NB or trans identified.
The 7 yr thing is extremely interesting. There’s the old documentary called 7-Up that followed a cohort of people across their lives every 7 years. It is a brilliant discourse on lifespan development. I’m firmly of the opinion that this trajectory of lifespan development is why we *should never* intervene with drug or surgical medical treatment during youth. You’re both quite right that we shouldn’t even be considering RODG as a gender identity issue, and it’s arguable that no childhood “confusion” around their sex should be treated as such. We are bumping into the major issue with all of this & it’s that it doesn’t seem possible to properly operationalise gender identity & certainly not to the extent we can justify broadly applied medical intervention.
I’d agree with you drag is an exaggerated and subversive representation of a female stereotypes. - but having been to many many drag shows, I’m painfully aware drag humour invariably centres around female put-downs. Lots of references to fish and bitches 🤦♀️
They're depriving all of us of the healthy balancing presence of gay people in society. I am straight but I've always felt grateful for my gay friends who ARE the true gender non-conformists. As a straight woman I need the gay women and men to be around so that I myself don't drown in gender stereotypes. I used to be a member of a Facebook group called in Polish Chujowa Pani Domu, which loosely translates as The Crappy Housewife, where women and girls celebrated how bad they were as cooks and cleaners. I loved the defiant spirit of that group. As much as we all have to conform to a certain degree, we also need the balance provided by rebels. Gender ideology is not about rebels, it's about affirmation of stereotypes in the worst possible form.
Great quote from Hakeem, "The surgeons are the master craftsmen." Unfortunately, they take recommendations from quacks. I know, my former husband went to one. Ute Heggen, author, In the Curated Woods (iuniverse, 2022)
I was very moved by your talk on Feminist Question Time, thank you Ute. Your dignity despite the suffering inflicted on you is impressive. I do hope your children have got through ok - thank god they have an exceptional mum!
Actually now they no longer accept that we just call them by their pronouns, they insist that we actually believe it. I started out feeling sorry for them, later I saw them as pathetic and felt sad for them, now I actually feel threatened and angry.
So frustrating, I agree. Doesn’t make sense to talk about detransition rates without a longitudinal parameter. Detransition after 5,10, 15 years? I know of no longitudinal study of adult detransition rates. We know from all 11 peer-reviewed longitudinal cohort studies 60 - 95% of gender non-conforming young people eventually become comfortable in their bodies by about 20 years of age and most realise they’re gay. Tragically, not before many have been sterilised by hormones, hysterectomy or castration. Adults are a different proposition altogether, because most adult male transitioners are heterosexual autogynephiles, unlike young trans-identifiers. There are few adult female transitioners.
I thought about the tattoo issue. Mainly when youngster's are covering their necks and even face. Apparently our brains don't develop fully until after 25. I think it is the prefrontal cortex, responsible for rational thinking. Funny how you call it 7 years because 18 years old to 25 years is 7 years ..just a thought
We shouldn’t be chopping anyone about. For how to accommodate these individuals in society after? They will always create issues for women’s spaces. Women will pay when legal fictions are created and those individuals want to be validated for the rest of their life to justify what they have done to their bodies. This is an instance where the advance of medicine has led humans to a poorer outcome.
EGALE Canada in its glossary of terms no longer has "homosexual" (I guess that's a bad word now), and "gay" is defined as "same-gender attracted". I've also read in a gender identity book for teens that "homosexual" is a bad old word that was historically used against queer people.
That's appalling! Older homosexuals object very much to being called queer. But the 'kindness' demanded from us to these delusionals is never reciprocated.
The fact that trans are many groups it matters which groups are making up the greater proportion of trans people? We need to know who we are dealing with .
Ugh. If you identify as a blind person, you could try it out with occluding contact lenses first, for crying out loud. And I think if you are sending someone for a consultation and you think they are a. poor candidate, it would be a good idea to outline your concerns in the referral note - worded carefully to avoid being dismissed as transphobic! This video is a brilliant conversation. Dr. Hakeem is so knowledgeable about these issues.
Great reporting , well done Arty…but the drag scene is misogyny. They are insulting and not flattering. Yes they are sending up gender AND taking a swipe at us at the same time. I’ve never seen a drag act and thought “ that’s a good/ flattering portrayal of us”. Anyway. Brilliant. I’d like to see an interview with Posie or Brittany Roux.
"You're castrating them, you're amputating their breasts, and you're not even asking them why".
That's the correct way to describe puberty blockers, top surgery, and gender affirmative care.
That was fantastic. I’m sorry to say that despite following this issue closely for 5 years i’d never come cross Dr Az. More podcasts please Arty you’re a great interviewer.
Az Hakeem’s book ‘DeTrans’ is the follow up and is excellent.
What a great episode. Two thought provoking individuals have a reasoned discussion. Dr Hakeem is definitely on my list of impressive psychiatrists.
For reasons that should be obvious, I’m glad you brought up the music as subculture issue. Teenagers of my era learned a few guitar chords and started a band to stand out. I made a lot of silly decisions in those days but mostly in regard to bizarre clothing and hair dye. Things that can be easily abandoned once the reality of adult life sets in.
yep. Tough to abandon not having a winky... after severing ones winky
There’s no such thing as sex reassignment surgery or sex reassignment.
Awesome discussion! I must know how he manages to understand Judith Butler... 🤔🤔🤔
the only thing one needs to understand about Butler's work is that it's intellectually onanistic drivel
You have a real gift for the long form interview Arty, and Az is always a fascinating guest
Excellent, thought-provoking interview & exchange - Thanks
Great guest, great interview.
Thank you Arty for introducing me to this wonderful man! He was fantastic. I’ll be showing various friends this interview. I hope you’re having a truly lovely time in the UK. Wish you lived over here X
Thank you both. This is a great conversation. And I finally learned why something bugging was me. I am almost a septuagenarian (Punk Rock goth-ish). Thank you for explaining why music is no longer as important. and how it was replaced by social media. Makes so much sense. And also makes me feel less guilty about not liking pop music (it all sounds like cartoon Disney toys singing for a commercial to me but then again ridiculous love ballads are not my cup of tea)
If anyone has any suggestions for current bands let me know
Thanks again for the great conversation
Meh, i'm a 20yo and it all sounds like disney cartoon/ boring tik tok pop to me as well 🙃
Check out Idles. A UK band
I do so many “masculine” things. But because I am a woman, I don’t think of these as “masculine” things or of myself as having “masculine” traits. I am a doctor, and I have had a very few transsexual patients through a career that has spanned decades. “Back in the day” it took a very long time for gender-dysphoric adults to get to the point of transition.
Bring back the Lesbians, for the love of heaven!
Such a telling point re paucity of lesbian role models. Martina Navratilova and Ellen are probably the only ones most people can name, and none under 40 years old. Homophobia is still rife, but does Stonewall care?
I wish people would stop using words like "feminine" and "masculine" to describe personality. If we want to say a girl is tough, we say that girl is tough. If we want to say a boy is delicate or moves differently from other boys, we say that boy is delicate or moves differently from other boys. Associate toughness with masculinity is indirectly associating toughness with maleness.
Thank you, Arty! ♥
This was excellent! Thanks Arty❤️
47:35 "It's not like any other branch if medicine."
I say it's not medicine at all.
Very insightful and engaging. Not on board with the drag element, but happy to listen to a different perspective. More please Arty!
I love Az! Thanks for this Arty. Az has great moral fortitude to make this stand against the gender ideology cult. If only he could of ran the GIDS in the UK, we’d have a more healthy approach to gender dysphoria
Such kind, decent, and compassionate men, both of you. Thank you SO much.
Great interview Arty, really interesting and fantastic that a "professional" person that absolutely knows what he's talking about can express his views freely. I might have to look up the Dr's book now!
two brave men
I love you so much, Arty! Great interview. I always seem to learn something when I watch your videos.
Arty Thank you for introducing me to Dr Az Hakeem
Great discussion. I love the 'Goth 5' comment! I am so glad I had punk rock to submerge myself into, otherwise I don't know what I would have done with all my insecurities and teenage angst.
Hope to see new interviews from Arty ❤
Excellent interview with many useful and clear distinctions regarding what is currently included, indiscriminately, under the 'trans' banner. The Goth identity evolution parallel with ROGD is excellent.
An excellent interview. Thanks
I feel the same way about drag to be honest. Maybe now I’ll be able to explain it more clearly. Great interview!
Drag is a sub group of transvestitism in that they get off on the performance.
Drag refers to women as fish and use the acronym CUNT to describe what they do. Drag is not an attack on gender norms it's a mocking performance of womanhood in a way that would be classed as offensive and a hate crime were it to be done on the grounds of race instead of gender.
I agree re drag.
I think I could listen to Dr Az all day - great interview, thanks Arty! Ardderchog 👏
Excellent discussion. Thank you.
Great interview ! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
His last name literally means Doctor
Oh cool! Doctor doctor! 🤣
@@ArtyMorty ....give me the news i got a ....
@@calonstanni 😆
This conversation has to be had widely.
A lot of this looks like child abuse to me!
Being trans isn't the issue, the issue is that a subset of trans and their allies don't know who to behave and communicate in an adult manner. But for some reason, this type of sociopathic bullying behavior is tolerated in the online world and sane people capitulate without a fight. And it's not just the trans sphere, it is everything from cultural appropriation to fill in the blank. There is no human reason to act in such an extreme way about these things to the point of cancelling people and ruining lives, that's severely disordered behaviour. The people that are the heros on Twitter are probably friendless outcasts in real life, because no one wants to be around such toxicity.
the left-ish/soft left/socially liberal section of the ruling class have very enthusiastically gotten on board with the cancel culture which was previously enthusiastically used by the McCarthyite, pro-war right. Now everyone loves to cancel others!
people who have been bullied in mainstream life sometimes become the biggest bullies in subculture communities. Observed it in the punk scene in the early 2000's, and this seems very similar to me, just online so it's amplified
Youre kinda right,I used to be one of those mean people, because people online were mean to me. I thought they were supposed to be good people, I didn’t have any friends to snap me back to reality. Also, school never warned me that people would peer pressure me into being a “good person”, I was prepared to say no to drugs, I wasn’t prepared for the guilting and shaming.
I got duped into believing the whole cultural appropriation thing too. I’ve noticed its strongest proponents are monoracial people or people with monoracial identities(mixed people who believe in the one drop rule). They don’t consider mutts like me or the fact that people adopt eachothers culture when they marry.
It never even fit my beliefs in the first place. If arroz con gandules became a popular food, id be ecstatic.
That was a great interview. You both explained the concepts in clear language that is easy for even the uninitiated in the 'gender wars' to understand. You picked up on something I've always thought: the subculture element and the fact that modern music is pretty crap. Coming from the punk/goth esthetic of the 80s myself and finding my 'tribe' through shared musical tastes. I often got bangers thrown and insults at me. I was pretty confident and thought, 'F you!! If you think I look outrageous this weekend, wait till next weekend!!'. Musical fashion/videos today are over-sexualised, or the lyrics are misogynistic so I can well understand how young girls want to escape from those images and expectations by becoming NB or trans identified.
Good segment.
The 7 yr thing is extremely interesting. There’s the old documentary called 7-Up that followed a cohort of people across their lives every 7 years. It is a brilliant discourse on lifespan development. I’m firmly of the opinion that this trajectory of lifespan development is why we *should never* intervene with drug or surgical medical treatment during youth. You’re both quite right that we shouldn’t even be considering RODG as a gender identity issue, and it’s arguable that no childhood “confusion” around their sex should be treated as such. We are bumping into the major issue with all of this & it’s that it doesn’t seem possible to properly operationalise gender identity & certainly not to the extent we can justify broadly applied medical intervention.
Do our cells not completely turn-over every 7 years. Could be wrong can't remember where I read that.
Look, it's lovely Arty! Love Dr. Az Hakeem! ❤
Excellent, intelligent and informed discussion. Anyone listening to this and not peaking is beyond help.
I’d agree with you drag is an exaggerated and subversive representation of a female stereotypes. - but having been to many many drag shows, I’m painfully aware drag humour invariably centres around female put-downs. Lots of references to fish and bitches 🤦♀️
They're depriving all of us of the healthy balancing presence of gay people in society. I am straight but I've always felt grateful for my gay friends who ARE the true gender non-conformists. As a straight woman I need the gay women and men to be around so that I myself don't drown in gender stereotypes.
I used to be a member of a Facebook group called in Polish Chujowa Pani Domu, which loosely translates as The Crappy Housewife, where women and girls celebrated how bad they were as cooks and cleaners. I loved the defiant spirit of that group. As much as we all have to conform to a certain degree, we also need the balance provided by rebels.
Gender ideology is not about rebels, it's about affirmation of stereotypes in the worst possible form.
Dr Az is brilliant as ever
Arty!!!! Are you there?
If you are, can you go over and look at ‘the damage report’ involving the Donald.
Love you as always ❤️😘
Great quote from Hakeem, "The surgeons are the master craftsmen." Unfortunately, they take recommendations from quacks. I know, my former husband went to one. Ute Heggen, author, In the Curated Woods (iuniverse, 2022)
I was very moved by your talk on Feminist Question Time, thank you Ute. Your dignity despite the suffering inflicted on you is impressive. I do hope your children have got through ok - thank god they have an exceptional mum!
Very informative. Thank you to you both. 🙏
Love this interview Arty
He should be introduced to FAIR - (Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism) they have a medical professional network. He would be an asset.
The number of detransitioners is now so high that one psychiatrist is not enough. So very needed task.
Actually now they no longer accept that we just call them by their pronouns, they insist that we actually believe it. I started out feeling sorry for them, later I saw them as pathetic and felt sad for them, now I actually feel threatened and angry.
So frustrating, I agree. Doesn’t make sense to talk about detransition rates without a longitudinal parameter. Detransition after 5,10, 15 years?
I know of no longitudinal study of adult detransition rates.
We know from all 11 peer-reviewed longitudinal cohort studies 60 - 95% of gender non-conforming young people eventually become comfortable in their bodies by about 20 years of age and most realise they’re gay. Tragically, not before many have been sterilised by hormones, hysterectomy or castration.
Adults are a different proposition altogether, because most adult male transitioners are heterosexual autogynephiles, unlike young trans-identifiers. There are few adult female transitioners.
Arty, when are new videos coming up?
Loved this discussion! Also (sorry if this was asked before) is the channel name a “Without a Clue” reference?
It sure is!
@@ArtyMorty I ❤️ that movie!
Lovely man
Say it again... Pink used to be for boys and Blue used to be for girls...
Humane,thoughtful,intelligent,funny and,most of all,not in thrall to ideology.
Just what the Doctor should be ordering.
I thought about the tattoo issue. Mainly when youngster's are covering their necks and even face. Apparently our brains don't develop fully until after 25. I think it is the prefrontal cortex, responsible for rational thinking. Funny how you call it 7 years because 18 years old to 25 years is 7 years ..just a thought
Would the Radical Notion publish him? Not their standard fare but a possibility
Well, this needs more views
Wow. Goth Mark V. Is that the spelling?
It should be LGB+F for fetishists.
Apologies my editor is broken
I like the sound of Az's next book. We need some fierce medical GC material! Odd take on drag queens, though . . .
A name change is used to sanitise all sorts. Spin.. Marketing...
We shouldn’t be chopping anyone about. For how to accommodate these individuals in society after? They will always create issues for women’s spaces. Women will pay when legal fictions are created and those individuals want to be validated for the rest of their life to justify what they have done to their bodies. This is an instance where the advance of medicine has led humans to a poorer outcome.
EGALE Canada in its glossary of terms no longer has "homosexual" (I guess that's a bad word now), and "gay" is defined as "same-gender attracted". I've also read in a gender identity book for teens that "homosexual" is a bad old word that was historically used against queer people.
That's appalling! Older homosexuals object very much to being called queer. But the 'kindness' demanded from us to these delusionals is never reciprocated.
The Trans Umbrella
surely that's a walking stick that identifies as an umbrella
The fact that trans are many groups it matters which groups are making up the greater proportion of trans people? We need to know who we are dealing with .
I'm still goth. Actually goth. I love goth music so much. Yes, I still "look" goth, but not as extreme as before.
Ugh. If you identify as a blind person, you could try it out with occluding contact lenses first, for crying out loud. And I think if you are sending someone for a consultation and you think they are a. poor candidate, it would be a good idea to outline your concerns in the referral note - worded carefully to avoid being dismissed as transphobic! This video is a brilliant conversation. Dr. Hakeem is so knowledgeable about these issues.
After, salivating to my Arty, I started to listen. 3 minutes in. Feckin’ horrendous
So it would seem drag has been hijacked?
Great reporting , well done Arty…but the drag scene is misogyny. They are insulting and not flattering. Yes they are sending up gender AND taking a swipe at us at the same time. I’ve never seen a drag act and thought “ that’s a good/ flattering portrayal of us”. Anyway. Brilliant.
I’d like to see an interview with Posie or Brittany Roux.
Society makes up social constructs
Feckin 3 weeks ago? I need you to be more consistent 😉😂❤️😘
Time for bed said zebbadee
Dr Hakeem looks like a snack. Sorry but we were all thinking it.
It is exactly like blackface but targeting females, regardless of the motivation of the person
ROGD, I'ts all tied in with anime and there is a lot of grooming going on especialy on tumblr and reddit, it should be investigated.
The buck stops with women rights activists to stop this nonsense. But I understand why clinicians are running away from this horror show. .