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you insult the integrity of my character and his accomplishments.... thanks for putting me D tier. It's an endorsement. Also, if you are a Celestial warlock, you sell your soul for an eternal benefits package of working in Heaven. Geenie warlocks go to the elemental planes where the Djinn keep them as slaves 4 eternity. Or you can go to Hentai hell with Great Old Ones, enjoy eternity there. You know what, your warlock pact stuff, it's perfect actually. love it. it's like a mirror of the more power you get the worse the afterlife. Correction you don't understand the LONG term benefit of the great old ones pets. I incapacitate a Giant and make him my pet.
I think celestial was done a little dirty... The bonus action healing wall of fire and lesser restoration and cure wounds actuallyakes it quite nice for having both battlefield control and healing capabilities. As well as the ability to remove debuffs. So its arguably one of the better healers in the game. The fact they can do good damage and heal in the same turn is a lot better than what other healers do in most cases because the heal doesnt sacrifice spell slots. Also the cure wounds is good because its up casted and can be spammed during short rests so it can be quite good for that. It's not the best but it probably is at least c tier especially with pact of chain to be able to max healing on yourself suddenly you have tanking abilities like a paladin using lay on hands for a pick me up. Just food for thought
Not only that, but he compared Searing Vengeance with death ward, which is just straight up incorrect. Yeah they both bring you back from death, but death ward is 1 HP, while searing vengeance is HALF your HP, a light damage AOE, and blindness for the round at no save (and you choose your targets)
@@isaacoutland5888 True it is good, it is a later level sort of thing but that being said it is objectively better than deathward as well as the fact revivify on a warlock spell list....I mean, in the right context you can resurrect more people than a cleric during mid tier play, so theoretically up to two players can drop per short rest and so long as you have spell slots and the gems you can bring people up from literal death 6 times. Which is good if you have a lot of foolish players. And is great if they are competent since you would only need to do it once or twice in a pinch. There is a lot of slept on power to this subclass because...it's a warlock who can do healing, battlefield control, and single target damage output (EB+Hex spam), as well as scouting (Chain pact) It is as a whole, underrated. And getting personal inspiring leader saves a feat selection, So you could possibly get healer if you wanted to double down on the healing aspects or literally any other feats that would be fun such as eldritch adept for an additional invocation or perhaps tough, So you can be a bit tanky on top of your already large list of abilities. You get to have a piece of the cleric pie while still getting the weird unique fun of a warlock.
Honestly, I would put Undying at F tier, to show how much worse it is compared even to Celestial and GOO. At least these two have claims to have (as minimal as they are), with Celestial having some alright spells and a bonus action better Healing Word and GOO having very solid spells. Undying has none of that, with just as bad if not worse features
While it’s true that death ward stacking is a strong option available to Undying, the fact that Undead can also do it, has essentially the same flavor, and is better in every other way sort of makes it totally obsolete. They’re definitely getting rid of it in the next player handbook.
I have to point out that for Fathomlock, im pretty sure the Evards feature technically isn't "no concentration" - you still need to concentrate on it, its just you automatically pass concentration checks whenever you take damage. Still a very strong ability, speaking frome experience, but not THAT strong - having Evards out with your concentration still open for something like Bigbys would just be outright broken.
Can someone tell me why should one use evard's B Tentacles when you can have hunger of hadar at lower cost? (I can understand that evard's gives huge advantage for ranged dmg, but with devil's sight you can do that too anyway and remain unseen
@@voodooozo3755 I can give you four reasons: 1) Unless your whole party invests in devil's sight then you've created an area of cover with broken line of sight. It's an investment for the party to make use of the spell to it's fullest. 2) HoH only does damage when a creature starts or ends it's turn in the area. EBT does damage upon entry AND gives the restrained condition. Restrain condition is very potent, and creatures restrained by EBT must use an action to remove it or accept more magical bludgeoning damage. 3) EBT does magical bludgeoning damage, which is a wonderful damage type. HoH does cold and acid, both are more commonly resisted than magical bludgeoning. 4) If you are picking between HoH and EBT then you are likely a warlock with a relevant subclass, unless you are an aberrant mind sorcerer. Warlock pact slots are always cast at their highest level. Having both spells prepared isn't a bad option. Circumstances can change the mileage, but EBT is a far better shutdown with bonus damage, and can more easily clog up an advance of melee combatants.
@@voodooozo3755For the Fathomless specifically, Tentacles doesn't eat a slot on your list of spells known, and doesn't eat one of your precious spell slots. Do note that while you may have Devil's Sight, your party might not, so casting HoH might do more harm than good, while Tentacles restraining targets does benefit your party through advantage on attack rolls. It's worth noting that Tentacles, being a spell, deals magical bludgeoning damage, so that is one of the most reliable damage types available, better than cold or acid. The point about HoH being lower cost is irrelevant for warlocks as they always cast at the highest possible level and HoH doesn't upcast at all (nor does Tentacles if you have lvl 5 slots, but the Fathomless free cast is always at minimum level anyway). And if you can cast 5th level spells, you probably have better things to do than HoH or Tentacles anyway? I guess cost is relevant for an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, but those don't get Devil Sight at all and can easily trade one or both of those spells away for a different psionic spell(s), since having both is probably redundant.
Not trying to be a contrarian here, I agree with most of your opinions on warlock stuff (am playing an archfey rn and 100% agree about bad features good spells and super strong with sleep spam in tier 1). But I think a big thing going for Celestial is its action economy with healing specifically. It isn't a spell, is ranged, and it only requires a bonus action. This makes it better at what 5e healers actually do than most because it can cast a levelled control or offensive spell as an action on the same turn it heals. Healing in 5e is not great in the first place, so being able to optimize for doing something else while you're healing gives it a huge advantage in action economy. Circle of dreams has a similar feature, but that's the only other subclass that has this ability and its features are not as good after the first one either meaning stuff like Moon or Shepard just work far better even if you do plan to heal. These dice stack per level taken in warlock, which is even better for its ability to pump up to 5d6 into someone and actually get them up for the rest of the fight at later levels all without even using a spell. Also, apparently this stacks with Gift of The Ever-Living Ones which is useful if you want to heal yourself for up to 30 HP as a bonus action. All the other features I totally see why you wouldn't like them, but Healing Light alone IMO is far better than most other Warlock starting features. I would say Long Rest is kind of tough for this feature, but totally fair considering its upsides. I could see this feature also being less valuable to tables that do bigger encounters between multiple short rests too, but most tables tend to not operate that way and instead take 1-2 encounters a day max following a long rest. As a result for a majority of tables this feature is very strong. Hope that's understandable, again just pointing out some other relevant info, not trying to debate against your tier list necessarily because that's your opinion on it.
It's ok. It's funny. I was recording a video about why Action Economy is overrated yesterday. You know about the healing problem in 5e so that's good. As for action economy, using more of your action economy is not inherently powerful. Power is power. We should instead look at the efficiency and output of your action economy, rather than how much you use it. How much you can remove action economy is a better way to gauge how powerful you are. That's what I think. That healing feature is ok at getting your friends up but I don't think it's powerful.
I agree. My COS campaign had a celestial warlock and not only did he save several PC’s and NPC’s lives, some of his subclass specific abilities really came in clutch. By Dungeon Dude’s logic that would make it a comfortable B tier imo (though their tier lists work differently)
When Xanathar's came out, I rated Celestial right up there with Fiend. Having a pool of "free" Healing Words starting at level 1 is really useful! Later on, that and the level 10 features are both useful to mitigate attrition if your party is light on that sort of thing, and you're still a solid offensive threat between EB and Wall of Fire. However, that niche got a fair bit less important by Tasha's with its addition of subclasses like Twilight Cleric and Artillerist Artificer who provide easy party-wide temps early on (on top of pre-existing attrition mitigation like lifeberries, healing spirit, etc). That drops its stock quite a bit, but I'd still rate it around or slightly ahead of Archfey, especially if your table isn't optimization-minded. Fathomless and Genie look really fun, so I'm glad to see them rated highly. I'd love to get a chance to play them sometime!
"Pretty well" is an understatement. It actually violates one of the primary drawbacks of healing, by allowing you to heal others with short rest recharge spells instead of long rest recharge ones.
Honestly the undead warlock is the martial characters answer to the hexblade for charisma casters. Form of dread is just soo good for martials. I played a fighter undead multiclass and he was a monster.
Celestial Warlock: RP. Tiefling celestial, pact of the tome warlock. Hes the product of his fathers deal with a devil to procure an heir. His mother was exchanged. Nature v nurter, internal (infernal?) conflict + daddy issues. And actually, in a small (in my case 3 man) party, it covers the role of party face, support, healer and ranged dps. Its strength is in it versatility
celestial warlock tiefling is good for rp but i prefer to do a divine soul sorc tiefling.. be a malformed nephlym whos divine and infernal bloods didnt quite mix. lol
Daolock is such a well designed subclass. It has great self synergy with the main class features of Eldritch Blast and the invocations that affect it and it has consistently useful features. The only problem with Genie Warlock is that Daolock is so good it can be hard to justify picking the other options so much so that genie warlock is often just referred to as Daolock. I would be interested to see builds focused on the other elements, but it's hard to compete with Spike Growth + Eldritch Blast to control grounded enemies, especially when you consider the Bludgeoning damage enabling Crusher for more battlefield control (I don't think Crusher is actually that great unless you have other party members using AoEs). Also, getting resistance to Bludgeoning later is great considering it's the damage type you'd expect most to run into.
Djinn is the best option, starting at level 7 you are flying around invisible spamming eldritch blast. Ask my DM how powerful it is. It’s a boring class to play until the DM specifically designs an encounter to stop the brokenness.
I normally play with Lore in mind, so mechanics come in second place. So I always go Marid and sometimes Djinni . I have never played Dao or Efreeti. My DM make sure to be lore accurate with the patrons and make sure they interfere with your life, often! Also, I think the elemental plane of water is the most interesting elemental plane out of them all.
Efreeti has nice synergy with oil. Honestly it's just a really good subclass as a whole. Although dao wins out as being the best option, every other option has its place. Like I have never felt as though taking a specific genie patron was hurting my character.
@matthewlaird5235 Greater Invisibility isn't as strong as you think it is because of opportunity cost. Most enemies already do not have ranged attacks and EB has a range of 120 feet, which is greater than the close range of most ranged attacks. Just by flying from a distance you are already so safe you don't really need much more protection. Remember if you are making noise (i.e. attacking) RAW enemies still know where you are until you take the Hide action even when invisible, so they are already attackong you with Disadv. with ranged attacks regardless. Greater Invisibility also takes your concentration. Personally buffing your own damage output will typically be weaker than buffing your party's output by controlling enemies. Spike Growth is such a broken spell for 2nd level for a reason, it stays useful basically forever because flying enemies are a minority.
@@matthewlaird5235 you get most of the mechanical benefits of Greater Invisibility from Shadows of Moil too, and that's on the regular Warlock spell list at the same level as GI. GI *is* better, but only marginally in most cases. I'd personally rather take any other genie type than Djinn for that reason.
I just randomly remembered that this channel existed, but couldn't remember its name to search for it... But "DnD kobold minmaxing" immediately lead me here
I'm pretty sure the genie spell list for the genie warlock are spells every genie warlock can chose and then the other spells (doa, effritti, etc) are custom one you can add on top of the genie spell list
One great thing with Fathomless is that it pairs really well with melee, either supporting melee party members or as a multiclass option. The tentacle's damage is basically just a non-spell Spiritual Weapon, but the slow effect helps the melee characters stay in range of their targets, and the damage shield can really help their durability. For multiclassing, Fathomless/Paladin and Fathomless/Barbarian are real standouts. The tentacle damage reduction helps keep your Armor of Agathys up longer, the Fathomless Barbarian can use it since it's not a spell, and for Fathomless Paladins it's a use of their bonus action that doesn't pigeonhole them into specific weapon types.
Celestial seems underrated here. Like...the level 1 feature scales. Similar to the Paladin Lay on Hands feature scaling with class level...except it has 60 range and can be used as a bonus action. Put it this way, if the subclass said "your max HP increases by 4 for each warlock level you gain" I would consider that pretty good, and this feature is roughly that powerful. Downplaying the level 10 feature doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. Inspiring Leader is a good feat. I like getting extra feats--extra feats are really good. (Unless they are bad feats, but this is a good feat, so it's good). The one caveat is like...yeah, sure, if someone is playing Twilight Cleric or Artilerist Artificer maybe don't play a Celestial Warlock. As for when you would want to play a celestial...probably sometime after you get the level 10 feature, so like late Tier 2 onwards? By this point your level 1 feature has scaled substantially, and you get the nice level 10 feature as well. The Level 14 feature is also very good insurance. Celestial also has good spells on its spell list, mostly good higher level spells, but good higher level spells are actually exactly what you want by the time you're a level 10 warlock--you won't be preparing the lower level spells anymore. Like...if you're a tier 3 warlock it's better to be a Celestial than it is to be a Hexblade or a Fiend.
Definitely undervalued Celestial. Healing Light is the best healing feature in the game, proving on average over 100hp worth of healing per long rest. As a bonus action, at 60f range. Radiant Soul gives a resistance and lets you choose two different damage types to boost. Um jot aware of any other subclass that does that, so if you run into a creature that resists one, you can use the other. Also there is no limit on the number of time you can use it, so with a bit of trickery you can use it twice a turn. Celestial Resilience is 15 (and 10 for you party) Temp HP, every rest. Might not be thr strongeat feature, but more survivability is never a bad thing. Searing Vengeance on the other hand is fantastic. Unlike Death Ward, it gets you back up at half your Maximum HP, not 1hp. It also damages and blinds your choice of craturs within 30f. No save, no legendary resistance, they just take 2d8+Cha radiant and are blind until the end of the current turn. Frankly, its so good that its like being in a commited relationship, sometimes going down is a power move.
I have a celestial warlock in a campaign where arcane magic is banned and unless you get your powers as a cleric or paladin, you either are bound as a mage or shot on sight for being a heretic. So Celestial warlock has saved my backside a few times.
@@wegielek3 Healing light is an amazing healing ability. Its damage buff can be applied to two different types, neatly avoiding the problem of resistance and immunity, and it's capstone damages and blinds enemies with no save on top of healing your HP to half. How much more power did you want?
@@calvinwarlick8533 even the strongest healing is weak compared to mediocare crowd control. It's mostly due to how terrible healing is in game. Radiant soul offers niche damage resistance and dmg buff. Buff is nice, but given how few spellslot warlock has, you aint gonna see it pop. Sesting Vengeance would be ok if not for the fact it requires you to be dropped to 0hp first
I like celestial warlock whenever I'm building a melee focused warlock. Radiant Soul + green flame blade + tome pact/Shillelagh is a fun combo. If you're worried about survivability, there's the healing word dice pool and the sorcadinlock / coffeelock meme gains more from this than most of the other warlock options. Take 2 levels of paladin for smites, full plate armor, shields, and a couple spell slots. Then 6 levels of celestial warlock. Then, if the campaign is still running, dump the rest of your levels into sorcerer. Either dragon, divine soul, or the pyromancy sorcerer from the Planeshift Kaladesh pdf. If you're looking for a warlock build that never casts eldritch blast then celestial is a good place to start.
had to stop, Celestial is my favorite, as you are a proper video game style healer. With a ton of great RP potential. Also Celestial with Paladin as a 50/50 build is a combat hero.
IMO Hexblades have greater mechanical synergy with Paladins while also giving interesting story options too. But you just gave me inspiration for a new character so thanks!
@@xdan- I would say it fails at optimization for that reason. As many people in the community feel the optimal way to play is a mix of RP value, Being able to contribute to things other than combat, and still preform well in combat. It's why Wizard almost always tops the best class choice in tier lists. With Bard and Sorcerer in a close second. Variety of spell options, and being able to do stuff is just as valuable as how quickly you can DPR.
I love Fathomless for playing a pure caster build. I love having Slappy Tentacle as an ever-present bonus action ability, and the flavor is super cool :)
Fathomless Plunge is always looked at as meh because whiteroom theory crafters can't see the forest for the trees. By 14th level, your party should have access to mold earth and a decanter of endless water. Unless you're playing in Dark Sun, the decanter should have been in your party's bag of holding for at least 10 levels. If you think fathomless plunge is "situational," you've never made modifications to a dungeon. Dig a ten to twenty foot wide and five foot deep hole with mold earth and fill it with water. You've made a pond/checkpoint your party can warp back to if you are within a mile. When you get to the entrance of the dungeon, tell your DM you need to "Quicksave" then take three rounds digging and spouting water.
Why should I care about light and sacred flame cantrips when I have better things like Eldritch blast and a bulleye lantern? Why are those cantrips so important to you?
Light is better than a lantern since a lantern needs you to buy oil and has weight (if your DM cares about those things) and Sacred Flame is useful since it does radiant damage which can be used to keep a zombie down also, since it is a Dex saving throw spell, it can be more useful if a target’s AC is too high or if they have too much cover that Eldrich Blast is less likely to hit. With Warlock, the more options you have, the better even if you don’t use them often, having them there can be a lifesaver when you do need them which can be more often than people think. Especially since for some godforsaken reasons, warlocks get the least number of cantrips without a hand out like this AND one of the smallest cantrip lists.
@@PackTacticsI know this probably isn't good but sacred flame + the ghostly gaze invocation allows you to smite people through walls that's why you should care it's funny
i love fathomless and celestial the most fathomless in level 10+ is so much fun with celestial in any level 9 or lower if i go warlock has it lets me be helpful to pick ally's up and hexblade is fun for some campains has it lets me be a fighter thats not scared of being locked in low level areas where we are stripped of weapons or in a setting where u might need to go into high society where weapons might not be allowed and has saved us quite a lot :D and archfey in some campaigns and DM's willing to buff them ever so lightly has been the best experience i have had has a RP character
I think celestial is way too low and fathomless is a bit overrated. celestial is at least a B tier but I’d put it A and fathomless is an A as well. Celestial’s first feature is amazing thanks to 5e’s yoyo healing and celestial resilience is great for dungeon crawling( also saves you 10 minutes compared with inspiring leader). Calling searing vengeance a “long rest death ward” is seriously undervaluing it imo. Not saying it’s an amazing feature but half your hp back and a no-save blind is a lot better than just a death ward. Fathomless’s movement control can be good with cooperation but I feel repelling blast is already good enough 9/10 times if you’re getting help from others. Grasping tentacles is pretty great but the other stuffs just alright. Don’t see it on the same level as genie and undead so I think it’s A
I find celestial warlock to be best paired with a stars chalice build druid but go two into warlock to get agonizing blast invocation and use all asi's for charisma so your eldritch blast hits reliably Then rest of the levels into druid Yes your wis is going to be lower but we dont need boosts to hit on heals so we get a smaller heal but we can throw two heals per turn while dropping good dmg with eldritch blast
Then on a turn that really needs it you can use Cure Wounds ( action) Healing light ( bonus action) Plus chalice heal to prevent a tpk It gets even better if wither and bloom is allowed as it gives you a ranged cure Wounds but I know a bunch of people hate wither and bloom but on a potential tpk It let's you heal the person swarmed, damage those that swarmed them and heal two others in a turn it can be a nice move to put the game in your favor ( yes I know it's using wis to hit but it still does half damage if it fails so think of it as a ranged heal with an upside)
If your party synergizes, Fathomless is definitely the best for control. If they don't, I think undead sneaks ahead, because they don't need other people to make form of dread function (although fathomless can do a lot with Evard's, RB, LoL, and their tentacle). I am super happy that my favourite subclass (fathomless) is getting some much needed appreciation. Also, you can multiclass cleric and fathomless, and tentacle of the depths can completely shut down movement in spirit guardians.
Currently have Genie lock whose patron is the recipient of all of the broken port keys used to cast Seal Gate by anyone who casts it, and I spend my lightly active long rests picking through the pieces and putting them together for my them.
People really sleep on celestial and dream's healing. Its a better version of healing word thats free and can be used on the same turn as a leveled spell.
Very important. Remember, to pick repelling blast and have one of your friends pick ray of frost. That way it's going to be really easy shutting down single targets.
Only Celestial Warlock that's decent is the self-healing cannon. Gift of the ever living one to max out healing on yourself, all the eldritch blast invocations. Heal yourself by a lot with a bonus action. Make it better by being a dwarf and getting dwarven resilience as a feat.
4:36 Healing light alone has way more uses than the whole Archfey subclass tho. You glazed over it, but it is really really good. First it is no spell, so it can't be silenced or counterspelled, it uses none of your precious extremely limited spell slots. It is ranged and it is a bonus action, so it does not mess with your action economy too much. You can still cast a leveled spell and use this feature. But more importantly, you get A LOT of them, at level 5 you have 6 dice. In DnD, being able to heal more times is often way more valuable than healing A LOT once. You only need 1 hp to bring someone back to combat. And healing 1-15hp, is almost meaningless if the damage taken is 15. At higher levels it becomes even more valuable, because you can never outheal the damage, so the burst number becomes meaningless. Being able to fill the role of bringing people back to combat, might make you the most valuable member in the team if you have no one that can fill that role. If there is a cleric tho, it is even better, because you can lift the cleric the burden of being a dedicated healer and they can use their turn to cast more useful spells, rather than wasting all their action economy on just healing word and being forced to use a cantrip. That feature alone makes it a B at least, and you get it online at level 1 and it scales each level.... I can't see how you missed how extremely useful that feature alone is. The same thing happened to Dreams Druid, people often say "oh well let the cleric do it". But if you let the cleric do it, you are not allowing the cleric to do anything really useful. The cleric becomes a healbot that just healing word cantrip, when they could be doing SO MUCH MORE. And if there is no healer, then you become crucial, there is no way this feature is not useful.
The thing about healing in very high end optimized party is that Healing Word yo-yo (and close equivalents) are actually like very last ditch scenarios that you want to avoid by just not letting people drop, usually through very oppressive usage of control spells, but in the scenario where that isn't possible, just constantly giving out Temp HPs through the form of Twilight Cleric (and a couple other weaker classes, but mostly that class)
I really hope GOO gets the undying treatment with a completely reworked replacement subclass which covers the same vibe. As it stands, if I want to make an eldritch-themed warlock, I’ll just make a fathomless warlock because it can fit into a pretty adjacent aesthetic, especially with an aberrant sorcerer dip.
warlock is my fave class i love seeing people speak about it here on youtube. tbh my fave warlock is the fiend but i wish they brought out a dragon patron warlock with fizban's
I'm currently playing a Fathomless Warlock and it's so much fun. The extra 1d8 cold and slow for a bonus action gives some great damage output at lower levels, especially when you're in melee and all you've got is a dagger and an Eldrich Blast at disadvantage, plus playing a Marine Biologist is a ton of fun.
I disagree about Celestial Warlocks being D. That being said, no Aura of Vitality and no Raise Dead so not a true healing subclass at most tables..Still no single class build besides this one can raise a wall of fire around a comrade who has fallen at range and raise them from 0 hp on the same turn. For Healing Lights unique action economy I'd give them a C. The more I think about this though there isn't a lot of optimization to do with them so ...it isn't like building a bugbear SS gloomstalker so a lot of players won't like it. Still I personally find you dont need to do 500 dpr to enjoy the game. Great video though. Even when I disagree I feel like I learned something by listening to you!
Thank you for giving love to the Archfey spell list. I play this subclass a lot for flavor reasons, and while I can't disagree with its placement cause the features are basically nonexistent except for Misty Escape which only gets used in emergencies anyways (not sure why you said it makes you more likely to take damage), sleep and plant growth are really good.
C for Celestial warlock. I honestly don’t think Archfey is better then celestial. I’m sure at your table healers are worthless but healing light is better then healing word (a first level spell) and it doesn’t break the spell casting rule. On an even keel I’d say except healing light all the other features are similarly mediocre between the two subclasses, and for you the tie breaker was sleep which drops off quickly in my experience. Even if you still say Archfey is more powerful because the get better spells down the line, I wont argue that point both spell lists seem pretty good to me, does celestial really belong in the same tier are “telepathy” great old one or “doesn’t need to breath” undying? In conclusion Celestial is a perfectly serviceable subclass, it’s best feature is non spell healing which while un-optimal is still good on a warlock. It’s later features are situational but not bad, and it’s spell list is decent but not impressive.
Undying is undoubtedly the worst warlock subclass, but its still my favourite because of how well the abilities translate to the flavour of slowly becoming an undead to better serve your patron. I olayed one for over a year and had a blast, though with Undead warlock now a thing ill probably give that a go next instead.
Tell me how many L1 healing words at 1d4 or cure wounds at 1d8 do you get at L6, cuz a reasonable celestial can 1d6 heal at range 6 times as a bonus action without using any spell slots. Eldritch blast twice with agonizing and hex and still throw heals. I think my DM stopped planting healing potions 🧪 b/c I was reviving or topping off my party all the time.
I actually do think that Undying does have some interesting build strategy to it, and I don't just mean Death Ward stacking though that is another source of power. It's mostly based on how the spells and features it does have is far more enabled by the Invocations that Pact of the Chain unlocks. Firstly, it is the only Warlock subclass that actually can utilize Pseudodragon Poison milking due to Feign Death. That is because in order to milk the familiar, it has to be incapacitated RAW. Feign Death is the only way to do that afaik. Simply commanding your familiar to be willing to have the spell used on them and voila, you can now milk it. As Investment of the Chain master, and you are either on a gold farm or making Slashing and Piercing damage from the party a lot more potent. Only other way to get Feign Death would be through taking 5 levels of Bard. Works for a Hexblade 2/Bard X build but not for any other Single Class Warlock other than Undying. Secondly, Contagion is a sleeper. Not only in combat which can be delivered by your Familiar if you use both your own and its own Reactions to apply it, but even outside of combat. Imagine a Dracula-esque Warlock just sitting in a comfy armchair in front of a fireplace while their familiar is flying to the BBEG to put Contagion on them when they sleep at night due to your Voice of the Chain Master Invocation. What was already a good spying tool and is now also a way to get the pieces of the metaphorical chessboard put into place by weakening the enemy for up to a week. Could even be used to spread the fear of a plague. Thirdly, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones does technically make Indestructible Life better than a Fighter's Indomitable. This might sound weird, but it's all about proportions. Fighters have a d10 hit die, so their feature is a d10. Likewise, Warlocks have a d8 hit die, so their feature is a d8. % wise it's the same. While Fighters do eventually get multiple uses between short rests, you can get a consistent use of it when you think that the 22-28 healing could make a potential difference. Situational, hence you don't need it often. I could also add that an automatic up-cast of False Life could have its uses, especially if your sources for it are otherwise limited and you do not wish to spend feats for it. Heck, Pact of the Tome could in theory also work for Undying. Get Shilleleigh, Find Familiar, and Tome of Ancient Secrets to ritual cast Feign Death, and you can maybe melee with False Life and get lesser poison from a Snake Familiar for some minor gold. I would not recommend that over Pact of the Chain, especially the part about going into melee but it could be done somewhat.
The familiar just needs to be asleep. (I suppose you could argue that it doesn't sleep. But I think the reasonable assumption is that celestials, fey, and fiends all do sleep, and there's nothing saying the familiar is any different in this respect. Anyway, your DM is being a premier pain in the rear if they're insisting, both that an awake and willing familiar can't produce the poison [which already doesn't make sense], and that the familiar doesn't sleep either.) I honestly don't know what you're saying about Indestructible Life. It's not comparable to Indomitable, which hopefully means you take less damage in the first place (obviously superior to taking more and then healing it), and also applies to things that are _worse_ than pure damage, such as most Wisdom saves, concentration checks, etc. And just in terms of its healing power... since you're 14th level and thus on par with other casters who can cast 7th-level spells, it's about the same as if your 14th-level Cleric buddy upcast _healing word_ as high as he possibly could (i.e., around 22 HP). Is that a good strategy, or a good class feature? And you have to have an invocation for it to even do that much!
@@dcarrano I'm not saying that Undying Warlock is a great subclass. Obviously, costing invocations slots to make it functional is not great at all. I'm saying that it can be built to be more interesting based off the features it does have and make it play differently from other Warlock Subclasses without being outright terrible. As for commanding the familiar to sleep, I'm not entirely sure that can be done? Sure, the description of Find Familiar does state that it always obeys commands, but is it even able to sleep non-magically? If simply doing as you command it works RAW, I don't think there would be a debate regarding familiars being able to do things which requires hands. Heck, if it always does what is commanded of it, couldn't familiars then just fly even if they had no such ability simply because it was commanded to? I'm also thinking that by the fact that it is dismissed to a pocket dimension when it dies, I doubt then needs foods which implies that it may not need normal creature functions. But then again, the MM might define any creature needing such unless otherwise stated. Honestly, this is a giant can of worms come to think of it. If there is an answer to this, I'd want to know. As for Indestructable Life vs Indomitable, my mistake. I have never played a Fighter and confused Indomitable with Second Wind. I meant Second Wind which does d10 healing+fighter level similarly to how Indestructable life gives d8+warlock level. Proportionally, these are the same in terms of how much healing it does to the total HP pool. As for a Cleric buddy upcasting the healing; while Gift of the Ever-Living Ones in general might make a Cleric more willing to upcast healing on you; it is far from desirable to trade a spell slot for such at the end of the day. You have your own feature which could feasibly keep you up for another round if you know what is coming and have HP to spare. If something does 40 damage and you have 30, turning that into 52 would be nice. Wont happen often hence why you don't get the feature often.
@@BlazeLycan I'm not speculating that you're commanding it to sleep even though it normally doesn't. I'm saying my reading is that it _does_ sleep. (With a backup argument that, even if it's debatable whether it does, why would the DM use both the ultra-RAW interpretation that it _has_ to be incapacitated even if it's willing, and the ultra-YMMV interpretation that it doesn't sleep? Hopefully the DM isn't deliberately trying to shut down the things PCs attempt, especially when those things are entirely reasonable.) I agree that Indestructible Life is comparable to Second Wind... which is literally a 1st level feature. This is 14th level!! Your 14th level Cleric buddy indeed shouldn't upcast _healing word_ to 7th-level... he should do something appropriate to a 14th level character, such as cast _heal_ , which if upcast to 7th-level would heal *80* HP. That's my point here.
@@dcarrano I am unfamiliar with what YMMV stands for, and I think understanding this is crucial for me to understand the rest of your point. Mind elaborating what that means?
You are horribly underselling Celestial. Non spell bonus action healing means you can revive allies while also casting a leveled spell with your action. Flaming Sphere gives you all the usual benefits that having a bonus action damage option gives, and because it's fire damage you get to add your charisma to that. pretty much all of your damage dealing spells from your class benefit from your 6th level ability, which means that you're getting consistent value out of it. Even Sacred Flame has utility in the form of being a save based cantrip and ignoring cover, giving you a tactical alternative when EB is not optimal and still getting that damage buff. Party wide bonus HP at no cost every rest is hardly a bad ability. Sure, it is comparable to a feat... but a feat is not a worthless commodity. Assuming charisma 20 by 10th level and a 4 man party that is 45 temp HP per rest at level 10. Searing Vengeance is AMAZING as a comeback mechanic. Let's look at what you get at the start of your turn: 1) stand up for free, no movement cost. 2) half your HP back, no action. 3) A trivial amount of no save damage in a large area with no friendly fire. (pretty worthless) 4) Every enemy within 30 feet is blinded until the end of the current turn. No save, no friendly fire. If your party has any co-ordination at all, when the warlock goes down everyone holds their action until their initiative because once they stand back up the enemy is screwed. Offensively your party's attacks now have virtually guaranteed advantage. Any legendary attacks back or enemies with lower initiative than the warlock have disadvantage to retaliate. Alternatively, this allows the entire party to run and/or hide with no attacks of opportunity and no way for the enemy to see them as they escape. All this costs no actions so you can Searing Vengeance, bonus action heal to stand up a downed ally, and still blast away or cast a wall of fire to cover your retreat or whatever else you need to do. This ability can turn a close fight around because blindness is crippling and this applies it to a huge area with no friendly fire and no save.
Legit one of my favorites. Mine is a raving madman where his fathomless patron is still very cthulhu themed. With some nods to Bloodbourne lore he has an amazing backstory and I've got plans for him...and my poor unsuspecting party will be put through some shenanigans (the fun kind of course) >:)
I played an Aasimar Celestial Tomelock in AL for quite a while and really enjoyed it. Could I have been better in some ways? Sure. I think having the damage cantrip boost show up earlier would be good, for example, as would the pseudofeat that does Inspiring Leader.
Fathomless's 14th level ability is basically a fast travel if your party has an empty bag of holding, an ocean present in the campaign, and like a spare day in an area you want to return to, which is nice for returning to the bbeg's castle right before he summons cuthulu or smthn
Playing a celestial with the familiar feat that lets you max healing dice rolls on yourself leads to a pretty neat sustain bruiser. Also they can coffeelock easily since they get greater resto on their expanded spell list. Doesn't make them S tier but worth noting
I would put Dao Genie specifically above Fathomless just because of what you mentioned: the slowing and crowd control mechanics of it. What's better than a bonus action tentacle that can knock an enemy 10ft and deals 1d10? A spike growth that makes the area difficult terrain, deals 2d4 damage for every 5ft the enemy tries to move, and also combos with the Replling Blast even better since Dao Genie can add Bludgeoning Dmaage to the spell so it can combo with the Crusher Feat. This build gets off the ground super early too, so cheese gratering enemies to death and controlling the battlefield becomes more fun than ever!
Once upon a time, I made a 20th level Variant Human Great Old One Warlock character named Literally H.P. Lovecraft. I made every choice I could to keep him on theme, even giving him Magic Initiate at 1st level for the Cat Familiar, whom I _did not_ name.
Master of hexes is a really underrated feature with curse related invocations. At 14th level you're already getting most of hex's bonus damage for free, so relentless hex for misty step or maddening hex for damage/cc with nothing but features and bonus actions and no concentration, VSM, or spell slots needed. A hexblade with ghostly gaze and relentless hex can be blindfolded, gagged, restrained, out of spells, and alone anywhere, but still easily escape if literally any creature is within a range of 30ft at any point.
By the way, there is a *Reeeally* cheesy strat with Searing Vengeance Spehs Merhenes - you and your friends all get ready, buy/acquire some flying mount, fly right above the enemy, start blasting "Angels of Death", fall down (calculation required - the fall damage should KILL you, but not put you into too much *negative* HP [the amount of your max HP] or you'll die), activate Searing Vengeance, deal a crapton of damage to any hostiles in your general area, start circlejerking healing.
2:00 I understand that "slowed" and "difficult terrain" share that you move at half speed essentially, but that's all the similarities. Plant growth causing people within to be slowed would be ridiculously broken
3:05 How does archfey warlock's Misty Escape open up the warlock to be damaged more? I think it's a pretty good 1-round defense, albeit not a good enough feature
I'm a bit confused at 3:00 , why does misty escape open you up to being attacked more? Isn't teleporting away from an attacker and creatures having disadvantage on targeting you until the invisibility ends really good for your defense?
I think misty escape isn't as useful as most people think it is. It's a situational feature if you play well. I think having armor is just massively better for you and very consistent. This is just a once per short rest resource and sure the invisibility helps but it's not that big of an upgrade.
Because it doesn't mitigate the attack, you have to _take_ damage for it to trigger in the first place. That's only really useful if you're somehow caught in the middle of a hoard of enemies.
@@joda7697 Its also extremely useful against creatures who use multiattack. They use their first attack against you, but then you teleport out of their reach. This can potentially waste 1 or more of their attacks if no one else is in their reach.
I actually like GOOlock a lot because while mechanically it may not be super impressive I like telepathically communicating with my party members basically whenever I want. *_Not me beaming "you should steal that thing" into the Rogue's head so they get in trouble_*
A month late but i want to defend archfey warlock.A little at least. Its 1st level feature is next to useless in combat except for this rare situation where you have done something very badly and are now surrounded by fighters about to impale you on their longsword, in this situation it is better that disengage because they cannot just move to you next turn and attack then. But outside of this very specific situation it has one other use, one that makes if decent. Charmed condition has two effects - charmed creature cannot attack charmer and charmer has advantage on ability checks to socially interact with charmed creature. Fey Presence has no listed indication that it is being used, nor has it mentioned anywhere that targets notice that they were charmed. Meaning that it can be used as 1/short rest advantage on social roll. Not reliable one as it requires saving throw but it could save warlocks skin once in a while when he makes very important social roll that he needs all bonuses he could get. Misty Escape is on other hand notable by the fact that it comes online just after most creatures gain more than one attack and much before they can move 60ft at once. Meaning that while it does not protect you from this attack it does protect from ones that could follow. Not the most powerfull feature but i would describe it as kind of good.... mabye....it is a little good at least. Beguiling Defenses. I have nothing to defend Beguiling Defenses beyond that charm immunity is good, rest is a little useless. Only good thing about Dark Delirium is that it does not allow saves after initial one was failed. If you go with charmed option then it can see only you and illusion but cannot attack you because of condition effectively trapping it in state where it cannot do anything useful. Maybe it could be counted as being out of combat for purposes of charm monster since creature trapped literally cannot fight?If so then it could be used like that: you cast it on creature to pull it out of combat, charm it and then use your high charisma and advantage on social rolls to convince it to turn on its friends and then return to combat with an ally in tow.
Here's a simple rework of the Undying Warlock's features: [not doing Spells because that'd take a lot of time] *Among the Dead* Starting at 1st level, you learn the Toll the Dead Cantrip. You also have Advantage on Saving Throws against disease. Additionally, your exposure to the undead has given you a tolerance against their attacks. You gain Resistance against Cold and Necrotic damage. *Defy Death* Starting at 6th level, you have learned to absorb the other half of the necrotic energy that you would otherwise deflect away when hit by it, cancelling it out entirely. You are now Immune to necrotic damage. *Undying Nature* Starting at 10th level, you don't need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep. You still must Long Rest normally in order to gain its effects, however. You are immune to Exhaustion upon obtaining this feature, but must recover any of the points you already have naturally. Additionally, You only age 1 year for every 10 that you live, and are immune to magical aging. *Indestructible Life* When you reach 14th level, the natural life force and necrotic energy suffusing your body become as one. You are now immune to effects that would prevent you from recovering hit points. Additionally, when you cast a Spell under the school of Necromancy, roll a Charisma Saving Throw against double the Spell's level. If you succeed, you do not lose the Spell Slot used to cast the Spell.
idea for the Celestial Radian Soul (6) feature: resistance to Radiant damage. your spells that deal Radiant or Fire damage mark 1 target hit, causing it to take your Warlock level Radiant damage each time its gets hit by a damaging attack or spell during the next minute.
Genie all the way. Getting a Chaotic good patron is way cooler (subjectively for me) than having an evil one which could go against the parties and the dm's expectations.
I know a lot of people are defending Celestial already, but in a gritty realism game (specifically 8hr short rest, 7 day LR, lasting injuries), it may be one of the best builds in the game. I play a reborn Owlin Celestial Warlock with divinely favored (for goodberry) and it’s everything a cleric is but more fun. It gives me so much space to make suboptimal rp choices because my mechanics can back me up.
First tier list I've seen put Fathomless Lock highest. I have played two Fathomless Locks as they are my favorite subclass. Totally agree that they are the premier lock subclass. Now to convince people that Pact of the Talisman is one of the best pacts and that Tomb of Levistus is one of the best invocations as both are solid and both get called bad.
You've forgot the subclass so powerful, that they published it in its own separate document: the Undying Light warlock. Level 6 feature: Searing Vengeance...Once per long rest, whenever you would make a death saving throw, you can immediately get up with half your HP and all enemies within 30ft take 10+CHA Mod radiant damage and are BLINDED until the end of your turn.
Create Thrall is actually very good, just not for immediate combat. You basically get a servant until a remove curse spell is used on them ! And there's no saving throw ! It's a great social and infiltration feature.
Agree with most here but I would rate celestial B-tier, hexblade A-tier [shout out to banishing smite w/ eldritch smite] and fathomless significantly lower, like B-tier
Fathomless #1 is a hot take. I certainly respect it even though i personally would move it behind Undead. Fathomless is so underrated that its cool to see it get gassed up for once
@ i did. you talked about how the expanded spell list wasn't that good amd that it isn't that strong by itself. however there are so many amazing combos with hexblade (without multiclassing). its really strong, probably one of the best if not the best warlock
I can think of a reason to play Celestial. Flavor. That's it. I'm in a campaign where I wanted to play a Warlock, it was a Curse of Strahd campaign, and so we all decided to play as characters diametrically opposed to Undead. (Cleric of Kelemvor, vampire hunter Barbarian, and me. Celestial Warlock, who made a pact with Jergal.)
I just went over their features and spells. Is it healing itself you're questioning? Then I recommend watching my healing video. ruclips.net/video/toolWm5-HIc/видео.htmlsi=6ylaD9u113OBBlJc
Yo! I'm a Lvl 1 hospitality halfing warlock. I take an exhaustion level and skip my long rest and then short rest 8 times in order to cast goodberry 16 times to have extra 160 goodberries for a dungeon.
I had a genie warlock, and she had bracers of illusion so she was basically a sorlock but was full warlock. her eldritch blasts did more damage than 9th level disinitigrates and it was funny seeing her eat a disintigrate, then fire back with something twice as strong xD.
My current character is a swashbuckler rogue dipped into fathomless. We're level8 atm so its a 6/2 split. That slow effect comboed with a booming blade sneak attack is so good
The genie bomber. Fill your vessels extra dimensional space with whatever you want to drop. Have your familiar fly it over the enemy. Push the stuff out of your vessel.
so.. idea for gift of the sea... if you are in a cloudkill or stinkcloud type effect (or any effect that'd restrict breathing or cause spell effects for you breathing in) cast create (or destroy) water to create water at your feet. then use shape water (will have to aquire from pact of tome or other means) to shape the water around your head allowing you to breath without suffering the effects. if need be you may have to freeze the outer layer of water around your head (if the dm doesnt just let it float around your head)..
I’m really looking forward to the 2024 changes to Archfey assuming they’re similar to the playtest. It looks like they got the subclass features a lot more functional, if a bit obsessed with misty step. It’s my favourite warlock theme so I would like it to be more optimal.
Where they screwed up the celestial warlock for me is that they just had an expanded spelllist with cleric spells and not just the choice to pick cleric spells as with divine soul sorcerer. Where DS allows you to have cleric spells with metamagic, celestial would allow you to cast high level cleric spells that return on short rest, that would make it more interesting
You totally skipped over the fact that Undead Warlocks become IMMUNE to necrotic damage when using form of dread. Depending on the campaign that can completely break encounters.
Fathomless is legitimately one of the best warlock subclasses. It practically tells you what to do. You get a feature that slows. You get Sleet Storm and Black Tentacles. The whole subclass is *screaming* "please use me to trap enemies in area hazards". Are there seriously people who *don't* see this as one of the best warlock subclasses? I think the Hexblade was underrated here. Yeah, its non-1st level features are not great. But It's still solid. The damage increase from Hexblade's Curse is actually nothing to scoff at if you're running a Polearm Master Blade Pact warlock. With Lifedrinker you're capping out at 3 attacks per turn with a guaranteed *+16 damage* on each of them. If you connect with all three (and you should since you're attacking off your spellcasting stat) you're looking at a clean 48 damage *before you've even rolled 3d10 + any Hex/Spirit Shroud shenanigans' worth of dice.* As a point of comparison, your run of the mill Eldritch Blaster is looking at a maximum of 4d10+20 damage at level 17. I think you also underestimate just how valuable attacking off Charisma is. Having only one key stat instead of 2 makes all the difference between picking up all the cool feats that take your build up to 11 and being stuck gobbling your bland and boring ability score increases again and again.
One day I wanna try Fathomless, features aside I love water theme stuff and using it despite people thinking is bad. People only think any water themed subclass it's bad because Big Bang Theory infected people with Aquaman hate and I don't need proof of this, I have conviction.
I know this is very specific, but I'd be interested in seeing how you would change the more "meh" subclasses in your tier list. Specifically the Celestial, since I'm playing one currently and wouldn't mind pitching some good tweaks to my DM, heh.
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you insult the integrity of my character and his accomplishments.... thanks for putting me D tier. It's an endorsement. Also, if you are a Celestial warlock, you sell your soul for an eternal benefits package of working in Heaven. Geenie warlocks go to the elemental planes where the Djinn keep them as slaves 4 eternity. Or you can go to Hentai hell with Great Old Ones, enjoy eternity there. You know what, your warlock pact stuff, it's perfect actually. love it. it's like a mirror of the more power you get the worse the afterlife. Correction you don't understand the LONG term benefit of the great old ones pets. I incapacitate a Giant and make him my pet.
_Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes_ is pretty good, right?
I spy with my little eye, Cheat Engine.exe
For shame, for shame!
i'll be honest i love hexblade warlocks tematically but i agree, besides i really think they should learn steel wind strike
But Kobold! You forgot the Clockwork Soul!
Honestly, the thought of a warlock who has to pay their patron a large amount of money is pretty interesting.
If your looking for something like that, fantasy high on yt has a similar patron
Well I've got good news for you then. 🐊
That'd be a really good bit for a dragon patron (the fact that we don't have a subclass for that is CRIMINAL)
@@ridgetmacaroni7015 well a kobold is fairly close to a dragon
Patron's a loan shark. You get power for gold with a terrible interest rate.
I think celestial was done a little dirty... The bonus action healing wall of fire and lesser restoration and cure wounds actuallyakes it quite nice for having both battlefield control and healing capabilities. As well as the ability to remove debuffs.
So its arguably one of the better healers in the game.
The fact they can do good damage and heal in the same turn is a lot better than what other healers do in most cases because the heal doesnt sacrifice spell slots.
Also the cure wounds is good because its up casted and can be spammed during short rests so it can be quite good for that.
It's not the best but it probably is at least c tier especially with pact of chain to be able to max healing on yourself suddenly you have tanking abilities like a paladin using lay on hands for a pick me up.
Just food for thought
Not only that, but he compared Searing Vengeance with death ward, which is just straight up incorrect. Yeah they both bring you back from death, but death ward is 1 HP, while searing vengeance is HALF your HP, a light damage AOE, and blindness for the round at no save (and you choose your targets)
@@isaacoutland5888 True it is good, it is a later level sort of thing but that being said it is objectively better than deathward as well as the fact revivify on a warlock spell list....I mean, in the right context you can resurrect more people than a cleric during mid tier play, so theoretically up to two players can drop per short rest and so long as you have spell slots and the gems you can bring people up from literal death 6 times. Which is good if you have a lot of foolish players. And is great if they are competent since you would only need to do it once or twice in a pinch.
There is a lot of slept on power to this subclass because...it's a warlock who can do healing, battlefield control, and single target damage output (EB+Hex spam), as well as scouting (Chain pact)
It is as a whole, underrated. And getting personal inspiring leader saves a feat selection, So you could possibly get healer if you wanted to double down on the healing aspects or literally any other feats that would be fun such as eldritch adept for an additional invocation or perhaps tough, So you can be a bit tanky on top of your already large list of abilities.
You get to have a piece of the cleric pie while still getting the weird unique fun of a warlock.
Guiding bolt is a great support and damage spell for warlock updating aswell so I think I should've been boosted by that.
Also, sleeping on Flaming Sphere. Great area control, solid damage, and gives you something to do with your Bonus Action outside of Hex.
Honestly, I would put Undying at F tier, to show how much worse it is compared even to Celestial and GOO. At least these two have claims to have (as minimal as they are), with Celestial having some alright spells and a bonus action better Healing Word and GOO having very solid spells. Undying has none of that, with just as bad if not worse features
I thought about it but I didn't want to make another tier. There's also a good argument for death ward stacking but eeeh. I just kept it like this.
While it’s true that death ward stacking is a strong option available to Undying, the fact that Undead can also do it, has essentially the same flavor, and is better in every other way sort of makes it totally obsolete. They’re definitely getting rid of it in the next player handbook.
I have to point out that for Fathomlock, im pretty sure the Evards feature technically isn't "no concentration" - you still need to concentrate on it, its just you automatically pass concentration checks whenever you take damage.
Still a very strong ability, speaking frome experience, but not THAT strong - having Evards out with your concentration still open for something like Bigbys would just be outright broken.
I find it kinda funny that your concentration on it can get broken by stuff like bad weather and Sleet Storm still.
Can someone tell me why should one use evard's B Tentacles when you can have hunger of hadar at lower cost? (I can understand that evard's gives huge advantage for ranged dmg, but with devil's sight you can do that too anyway and remain unseen
@@voodooozo3755 I can give you four reasons:
1) Unless your whole party invests in devil's sight then you've created an area of cover with broken line of sight. It's an investment for the party to make use of the spell to it's fullest.
2) HoH only does damage when a creature starts or ends it's turn in the area. EBT does damage upon entry AND gives the restrained condition. Restrain condition is very potent, and creatures restrained by EBT must use an action to remove it or accept more magical bludgeoning damage.
3) EBT does magical bludgeoning damage, which is a wonderful damage type. HoH does cold and acid, both are more commonly resisted than magical bludgeoning.
4) If you are picking between HoH and EBT then you are likely a warlock with a relevant subclass, unless you are an aberrant mind sorcerer. Warlock pact slots are always cast at their highest level.
Having both spells prepared isn't a bad option. Circumstances can change the mileage, but EBT is a far better shutdown with bonus damage, and can more easily clog up an advance of melee combatants.
@@voodooozo3755For the Fathomless specifically, Tentacles doesn't eat a slot on your list of spells known, and doesn't eat one of your precious spell slots. Do note that while you may have Devil's Sight, your party might not, so casting HoH might do more harm than good, while Tentacles restraining targets does benefit your party through advantage on attack rolls. It's worth noting that Tentacles, being a spell, deals magical bludgeoning damage, so that is one of the most reliable damage types available, better than cold or acid.
The point about HoH being lower cost is irrelevant for warlocks as they always cast at the highest possible level and HoH doesn't upcast at all (nor does Tentacles if you have lvl 5 slots, but the Fathomless free cast is always at minimum level anyway). And if you can cast 5th level spells, you probably have better things to do than HoH or Tentacles anyway? I guess cost is relevant for an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, but those don't get Devil Sight at all and can easily trade one or both of those spells away for a different psionic spell(s), since having both is probably redundant.
@@user-kh7zf I suppose so. I am Not going full fath warlock with my character. I plan to invest everything into cleric after 6th level of warlock
Not trying to be a contrarian here, I agree with most of your opinions on warlock stuff (am playing an archfey rn and 100% agree about bad features good spells and super strong with sleep spam in tier 1). But I think a big thing going for Celestial is its action economy with healing specifically. It isn't a spell, is ranged, and it only requires a bonus action. This makes it better at what 5e healers actually do than most because it can cast a levelled control or offensive spell as an action on the same turn it heals. Healing in 5e is not great in the first place, so being able to optimize for doing something else while you're healing gives it a huge advantage in action economy. Circle of dreams has a similar feature, but that's the only other subclass that has this ability and its features are not as good after the first one either meaning stuff like Moon or Shepard just work far better even if you do plan to heal. These dice stack per level taken in warlock, which is even better for its ability to pump up to 5d6 into someone and actually get them up for the rest of the fight at later levels all without even using a spell. Also, apparently this stacks with Gift of The Ever-Living Ones which is useful if you want to heal yourself for up to 30 HP as a bonus action. All the other features I totally see why you wouldn't like them, but Healing Light alone IMO is far better than most other Warlock starting features. I would say Long Rest is kind of tough for this feature, but totally fair considering its upsides. I could see this feature also being less valuable to tables that do bigger encounters between multiple short rests too, but most tables tend to not operate that way and instead take 1-2 encounters a day max following a long rest. As a result for a majority of tables this feature is very strong. Hope that's understandable, again just pointing out some other relevant info, not trying to debate against your tier list necessarily because that's your opinion on it.
It's ok. It's funny. I was recording a video about why Action Economy is overrated yesterday. You know about the healing problem in 5e so that's good. As for action economy, using more of your action economy is not inherently powerful. Power is power. We should instead look at the efficiency and output of your action economy, rather than how much you use it. How much you can remove action economy is a better way to gauge how powerful you are. That's what I think.
That healing feature is ok at getting your friends up but I don't think it's powerful.
Being the best healer would still make it way worse than any mediocre control, burst, or dpr character, healing is bad in this system
I agree. My COS campaign had a celestial warlock and not only did he save several PC’s and NPC’s lives, some of his subclass specific abilities really came in clutch.
By Dungeon Dude’s logic that would make it a comfortable B tier imo (though their tier lists work differently)
@@Jessie_Helms Currently playing a Clockwork Soul/Celestial Warlock in CoS and the subclass is absolutely clutch in this campaign.
My party has no healer so celestial is king
When Xanathar's came out, I rated Celestial right up there with Fiend. Having a pool of "free" Healing Words starting at level 1 is really useful! Later on, that and the level 10 features are both useful to mitigate attrition if your party is light on that sort of thing, and you're still a solid offensive threat between EB and Wall of Fire. However, that niche got a fair bit less important by Tasha's with its addition of subclasses like Twilight Cleric and Artillerist Artificer who provide easy party-wide temps early on (on top of pre-existing attrition mitigation like lifeberries, healing spirit, etc). That drops its stock quite a bit, but I'd still rate it around or slightly ahead of Archfey, especially if your table isn't optimization-minded.
Fathomless and Genie look really fun, so I'm glad to see them rated highly. I'd love to get a chance to play them sometime!
Celestial is a healer with a capital H. It does what it’s supposed to do pretty well, but isn’t for optimizers.
"Pretty well" is an understatement. It actually violates one of the primary drawbacks of healing, by allowing you to heal others with short rest recharge spells instead of long rest recharge ones.
But it is for optimizers. Celestial warlock creates another subclass option for cocainelocks. So you don't have to take divine Soul Sorcerer
Except the healing isn't that good. Healing can be good in 5E for optimization but celestial's healing is not enough.
@@Varatho Healing Light DOES recharge on a long rest.
@@HoosierJedi spell slots.
Honestly the undead warlock is the martial characters answer to the hexblade for charisma casters. Form of dread is just soo good for martials. I played a fighter undead multiclass and he was a monster.
Celestial Warlock: RP. Tiefling celestial, pact of the tome warlock. Hes the product of his fathers deal with a devil to procure an heir. His mother was exchanged. Nature v nurter, internal (infernal?) conflict + daddy issues.
And actually, in a small (in my case 3 man) party, it covers the role of party face, support, healer and ranged dps. Its strength is in it versatility
celestial warlock tiefling is good for rp but i prefer to do a divine soul sorc tiefling.. be a malformed nephlym whos divine and infernal bloods didnt quite mix. lol
Daolock is such a well designed subclass. It has great self synergy with the main class features of Eldritch Blast and the invocations that affect it and it has consistently useful features. The only problem with Genie Warlock is that Daolock is so good it can be hard to justify picking the other options so much so that genie warlock is often just referred to as Daolock. I would be interested to see builds focused on the other elements, but it's hard to compete with Spike Growth + Eldritch Blast to control grounded enemies, especially when you consider the Bludgeoning damage enabling Crusher for more battlefield control (I don't think Crusher is actually that great unless you have other party members using AoEs). Also, getting resistance to Bludgeoning later is great considering it's the damage type you'd expect most to run into.
Djinn is the best option, starting at level 7 you are flying around invisible spamming eldritch blast. Ask my DM how powerful it is. It’s a boring class to play until the DM specifically designs an encounter to stop the brokenness.
I normally play with Lore in mind, so mechanics come in second place. So I always go Marid and sometimes Djinni . I have never played Dao or Efreeti. My DM make sure to be lore accurate with the patrons and make sure they interfere with your life, often! Also, I think the elemental plane of water is the most interesting elemental plane out of them all.
Efreeti has nice synergy with oil. Honestly it's just a really good subclass as a whole. Although dao wins out as being the best option, every other option has its place. Like I have never felt as though taking a specific genie patron was hurting my character.
@matthewlaird5235 Greater Invisibility isn't as strong as you think it is because of opportunity cost. Most enemies already do not have ranged attacks and EB has a range of 120 feet, which is greater than the close range of most ranged attacks. Just by flying from a distance you are already so safe you don't really need much more protection. Remember if you are making noise (i.e. attacking) RAW enemies still know where you are until you take the Hide action even when invisible, so they are already attackong you with Disadv. with ranged attacks regardless.
Greater Invisibility also takes your concentration. Personally buffing your own damage output will typically be weaker than buffing your party's output by controlling enemies. Spike Growth is such a broken spell for 2nd level for a reason, it stays useful basically forever because flying enemies are a minority.
@@matthewlaird5235 you get most of the mechanical benefits of Greater Invisibility from Shadows of Moil too, and that's on the regular Warlock spell list at the same level as GI.
GI *is* better, but only marginally in most cases. I'd personally rather take any other genie type than Djinn for that reason.
I just randomly remembered that this channel existed, but couldn't remember its name to search for it... But "DnD kobold minmaxing" immediately lead me here
You can also look up almost any spell and I'll pop up. I've covered so many of them.
I'm pretty sure the genie spell list for the genie warlock are spells every genie warlock can chose and then the other spells (doa, effritti, etc) are custom one you can add on top of the genie spell list
I think you’re referring to when he said genie got the short end of the stick, but i think he said djinni and they just sound similar
@@GooseInAGrapefieldHe was speaking about Djinni, I believe it’s the exact same pronunciation tbh
One great thing with Fathomless is that it pairs really well with melee, either supporting melee party members or as a multiclass option. The tentacle's damage is basically just a non-spell Spiritual Weapon, but the slow effect helps the melee characters stay in range of their targets, and the damage shield can really help their durability.
For multiclassing, Fathomless/Paladin and Fathomless/Barbarian are real standouts. The tentacle damage reduction helps keep your Armor of Agathys up longer, the Fathomless Barbarian can use it since it's not a spell, and for Fathomless Paladins it's a use of their bonus action that doesn't pigeonhole them into specific weapon types.
Celestial seems underrated here.
Like...the level 1 feature scales. Similar to the Paladin Lay on Hands feature scaling with class level...except it has 60 range and can be used as a bonus action. Put it this way, if the subclass said "your max HP increases by 4 for each warlock level you gain" I would consider that pretty good, and this feature is roughly that powerful.
Downplaying the level 10 feature doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. Inspiring Leader is a good feat. I like getting extra feats--extra feats are really good. (Unless they are bad feats, but this is a good feat, so it's good). The one caveat is like...yeah, sure, if someone is playing Twilight Cleric or Artilerist Artificer maybe don't play a Celestial Warlock.
As for when you would want to play a celestial...probably sometime after you get the level 10 feature, so like late Tier 2 onwards? By this point your level 1 feature has scaled substantially, and you get the nice level 10 feature as well.
The Level 14 feature is also very good insurance.
Celestial also has good spells on its spell list, mostly good higher level spells, but good higher level spells are actually exactly what you want by the time you're a level 10 warlock--you won't be preparing the lower level spells anymore.
Like...if you're a tier 3 warlock it's better to be a Celestial than it is to be a Hexblade or a Fiend.
Definitely undervalued Celestial. Healing Light is the best healing feature in the game, proving on average over 100hp worth of healing per long rest. As a bonus action, at 60f range.
Radiant Soul gives a resistance and lets you choose two different damage types to boost. Um jot aware of any other subclass that does that, so if you run into a creature that resists one, you can use the other. Also there is no limit on the number of time you can use it, so with a bit of trickery you can use it twice a turn.
Celestial Resilience is 15 (and 10 for you party) Temp HP, every rest. Might not be thr strongeat feature, but more survivability is never a bad thing.
Searing Vengeance on the other hand is fantastic. Unlike Death Ward, it gets you back up at half your Maximum HP, not 1hp. It also damages and blinds your choice of craturs within 30f. No save, no legendary resistance, they just take 2d8+Cha radiant and are blind until the end of the current turn. Frankly, its so good that its like being in a commited relationship, sometimes going down is a power move.
I really like playing as a Celestial Warlock.
Thematically it's fine and can be a good option if your GM doesn't want "sus" characters in the party.
I wish it was more mechanically potent though.
I have a celestial warlock in a campaign where arcane magic is banned and unless you get your powers as a cleric or paladin, you either are bound as a mage or shot on sight for being a heretic. So Celestial warlock has saved my backside a few times.
Same! Healing light is actually insane
@@wegielek3 Healing light is an amazing healing ability. Its damage buff can be applied to two different types, neatly avoiding the problem of resistance and immunity, and it's capstone damages and blinds enemies with no save on top of healing your HP to half.
How much more power did you want?
@@calvinwarlick8533 even the strongest healing is weak compared to mediocare crowd control. It's mostly due to how terrible healing is in game.
Radiant soul offers niche damage resistance and dmg buff. Buff is nice, but given how few spellslot warlock has, you aint gonna see it pop.
Sesting Vengeance would be ok if not for the fact it requires you to be dropped to 0hp first
I like celestial warlock whenever I'm building a melee focused warlock.
Radiant Soul + green flame blade + tome pact/Shillelagh is a fun combo.
If you're worried about survivability, there's the healing word dice pool and the sorcadinlock / coffeelock meme gains more from this than most of the other warlock options.
Take 2 levels of paladin for smites, full plate armor, shields, and a couple spell slots. Then 6 levels of celestial warlock. Then, if the campaign is still running, dump the rest of your levels into sorcerer. Either dragon, divine soul, or the pyromancy sorcerer from the Planeshift Kaladesh pdf.
If you're looking for a warlock build that never casts eldritch blast then celestial is a good place to start.
had to stop, Celestial is my favorite, as you are a proper video game style healer. With a ton of great RP potential. Also Celestial with Paladin as a 50/50 build is a combat hero.
Came here to say this, my second ever character was a Celestial Warlock, and I had a blast.
IMO Hexblades have greater mechanical synergy with Paladins while also giving interesting story options too. But you just gave me inspiration for a new character so thanks!
This is an optimization tier list, not a fun or roleplaying tier list.
@@xdan- I would say it fails at optimization for that reason. As many people in the community feel the optimal way to play is a mix of RP value, Being able to contribute to things other than combat, and still preform well in combat. It's why Wizard almost always tops the best class choice in tier lists. With Bard and Sorcerer in a close second. Variety of spell options, and being able to do stuff is just as valuable as how quickly you can DPR.
I love Fathomless for playing a pure caster build. I love having Slappy Tentacle as an ever-present bonus action ability, and the flavor is super cool :)
I agree!
Fathomless Plunge is always looked at as meh because whiteroom theory crafters can't see the forest for the trees.
By 14th level, your party should have access to mold earth and a decanter of endless water. Unless you're playing in Dark Sun, the decanter should have been in your party's bag of holding for at least 10 levels.
If you think fathomless plunge is "situational," you've never made modifications to a dungeon. Dig a ten to twenty foot wide and five foot deep hole with mold earth and fill it with water. You've made a pond/checkpoint your party can warp back to if you are within a mile. When you get to the entrance of the dungeon, tell your DM you need to "Quicksave" then take three rounds digging and spouting water.
Putting celestial in D tier is crazy lol
“But, I don’t care for cantrips” Then you’re the WRONG person to be rating Warlocks 🤣
Those cantrips are just worse EBARB
Why should I care about light and sacred flame cantrips when I have better things like Eldritch blast and a bulleye lantern? Why are those cantrips so important to you?
Light is better than a lantern since a lantern needs you to buy oil and has weight (if your DM cares about those things) and Sacred Flame is useful since it does radiant damage which can be used to keep a zombie down also, since it is a Dex saving throw spell, it can be more useful if a target’s AC is too high or if they have too much cover that Eldrich Blast is less likely to hit. With Warlock, the more options you have, the better even if you don’t use them often, having them there can be a lifesaver when you do need them which can be more often than people think. Especially since for some godforsaken reasons, warlocks get the least number of cantrips without a hand out like this AND one of the smallest cantrip lists.
@@PackTacticsI know this probably isn't good but sacred flame + the ghostly gaze invocation allows you to smite people through walls that's why you should care it's funny
Bro, i'm from Brazil and i loveee your videos, I'm also a mono warlock in this game and you are realy the best channel for "not noobs"
i love fathomless and celestial the most fathomless in level 10+ is so much fun with celestial in any level 9 or lower if i go warlock has it lets me be helpful to pick ally's up and hexblade is fun for some campains has it lets me be a fighter thats not scared of being locked in low level areas where we are stripped of weapons or in a setting where u might need to go into high society where weapons might not be allowed and has saved us quite a lot :D and archfey in some campaigns and DM's willing to buff them ever so lightly has been the best experience i have had has a RP character
Pact of the Blade is what lets you dismiss and summon your weapon. Hexblade doesn't have to do with that.
I think celestial is way too low and fathomless is a bit overrated. celestial is at least a B tier but I’d put it A and fathomless is an A as well. Celestial’s first feature is amazing thanks to 5e’s yoyo healing and celestial resilience is great for dungeon crawling( also saves you 10 minutes compared with inspiring leader). Calling searing vengeance a “long rest death ward” is seriously undervaluing it imo. Not saying it’s an amazing feature but half your hp back and a no-save blind is a lot better than just a death ward. Fathomless’s movement control can be good with cooperation but I feel repelling blast is already good enough 9/10 times if you’re getting help from others. Grasping tentacles is pretty great but the other stuffs just alright. Don’t see it on the same level as genie and undead so I think it’s A
I find celestial warlock to be best paired with a stars chalice build druid but go two into warlock to get agonizing blast invocation and use all asi's for charisma so your eldritch blast hits reliably
Then rest of the levels into druid
Yes your wis is going to be lower but we dont need boosts to hit on heals so we get a smaller heal but we can throw two heals per turn while dropping good dmg with eldritch blast
Then on a turn that really needs it you can use Cure Wounds ( action)
Healing light ( bonus action)
Plus
chalice heal to prevent a tpk
It gets even better if wither and bloom is allowed as it gives you a ranged cure Wounds but I know a bunch of people hate wither and bloom but on a potential tpk It let's you heal the person swarmed, damage those that swarmed them and heal two others in a turn it can be a nice move to put the game in your favor
( yes I know it's using wis to hit but it still does half damage if it fails so think of it as a ranged heal with an upside)
If your party synergizes, Fathomless is definitely the best for control. If they don't, I think undead sneaks ahead, because they don't need other people to make form of dread function (although fathomless can do a lot with Evard's, RB, LoL, and their tentacle).
I am super happy that my favourite subclass (fathomless) is getting some much needed appreciation.
Also, you can multiclass cleric and fathomless, and tentacle of the depths can completely shut down movement in spirit guardians.
Currently have Genie lock whose patron is the recipient of all of the broken port keys used to cast Seal Gate by anyone who casts it, and I spend my lightly active long rests picking through the pieces and putting them together for my them.
People really sleep on celestial and dream's healing. Its a better version of healing word thats free and can be used on the same turn as a leveled spell.
I feel vindicated in my decision to make my next character a Fathomless warlock! Great video, Kobold!
Very important. Remember, to pick repelling blast and have one of your friends pick ray of frost. That way it's going to be really easy shutting down single targets.
@@PackTactics Will do!
Only Celestial Warlock that's decent is the self-healing cannon. Gift of the ever living one to max out healing on yourself, all the eldritch blast invocations. Heal yourself by a lot with a bonus action. Make it better by being a dwarf and getting dwarven resilience as a feat.
🐊lock
4:36 Healing light alone has way more uses than the whole Archfey subclass tho. You glazed over it, but it is really really good. First it is no spell, so it can't be silenced or counterspelled, it uses none of your precious extremely limited spell slots. It is ranged and it is a bonus action, so it does not mess with your action economy too much. You can still cast a leveled spell and use this feature. But more importantly, you get A LOT of them, at level 5 you have 6 dice. In DnD, being able to heal more times is often way more valuable than healing A LOT once. You only need 1 hp to bring someone back to combat. And healing 1-15hp, is almost meaningless if the damage taken is 15. At higher levels it becomes even more valuable, because you can never outheal the damage, so the burst number becomes meaningless.
Being able to fill the role of bringing people back to combat, might make you the most valuable member in the team if you have no one that can fill that role. If there is a cleric tho, it is even better, because you can lift the cleric the burden of being a dedicated healer and they can use their turn to cast more useful spells, rather than wasting all their action economy on just healing word and being forced to use a cantrip.
That feature alone makes it a B at least, and you get it online at level 1 and it scales each level.... I can't see how you missed how extremely useful that feature alone is. The same thing happened to Dreams Druid, people often say "oh well let the cleric do it". But if you let the cleric do it, you are not allowing the cleric to do anything really useful. The cleric becomes a healbot that just healing word cantrip, when they could be doing SO MUCH MORE. And if there is no healer, then you become crucial, there is no way this feature is not useful.
The thing about healing in very high end optimized party is that Healing Word yo-yo (and close equivalents) are actually like very last ditch scenarios that you want to avoid by just not letting people drop, usually through very oppressive usage of control spells, but in the scenario where that isn't possible, just constantly giving out Temp HPs through the form of Twilight Cleric (and a couple other weaker classes, but mostly that class)
I really hope GOO gets the undying treatment with a completely reworked replacement subclass which covers the same vibe. As it stands, if I want to make an eldritch-themed warlock, I’ll just make a fathomless warlock because it can fit into a pretty adjacent aesthetic, especially with an aberrant sorcerer dip.
warlock is my fave class i love seeing people speak about it here on youtube. tbh my fave warlock is the fiend but i wish they brought out a dragon patron warlock with fizban's
I'm currently playing a Fathomless Warlock and it's so much fun. The extra 1d8 cold and slow for a bonus action gives some great damage output at lower levels, especially when you're in melee and all you've got is a dagger and an Eldrich Blast at disadvantage, plus playing a Marine Biologist is a ton of fun.
I disagree about Celestial Warlocks being D. That being said, no Aura of Vitality and no Raise Dead so not a true healing subclass at most tables..Still no single class build besides this one can raise a wall of fire around a comrade who has fallen at range and raise them from 0 hp on the same turn. For Healing Lights unique action economy I'd give them a C. The more I think about this though there isn't a lot of optimization to do with them so
...it isn't like building a bugbear SS gloomstalker so a lot of players won't like it. Still I personally find you dont need to do 500 dpr to enjoy the game. Great video though. Even when I disagree I feel like I learned something by listening to you!
Thank you for giving love to the Archfey spell list. I play this subclass a lot for flavor reasons, and while I can't disagree with its placement cause the features are basically nonexistent except for Misty Escape which only gets used in emergencies anyways (not sure why you said it makes you more likely to take damage), sleep and plant growth are really good.
C for Celestial warlock. I honestly don’t think Archfey is better then celestial. I’m sure at your table healers are worthless but healing light is better then healing word (a first level spell) and it doesn’t break the spell casting rule. On an even keel I’d say except healing light all the other features are similarly mediocre between the two subclasses, and for you the tie breaker was sleep which drops off quickly in my experience. Even if you still say Archfey is more powerful because the get better spells down the line, I wont argue that point both spell lists seem pretty good to me, does celestial really belong in the same tier are “telepathy” great old one or “doesn’t need to breath” undying?
In conclusion Celestial is a perfectly serviceable subclass, it’s best feature is non spell healing which while un-optimal is still good on a warlock. It’s later features are situational but not bad, and it’s spell list is decent but not impressive.
Undying has death ward stacking and great old one ha
Undying is undoubtedly the worst warlock subclass, but its still my favourite because of how well the abilities translate to the flavour of slowly becoming an undead to better serve your patron. I olayed one for over a year and had a blast, though with Undead warlock now a thing ill probably give that a go next instead.
Tell me how many L1 healing words at 1d4 or cure wounds at 1d8 do you get at L6, cuz a reasonable celestial can 1d6 heal at range 6 times as a bonus action without using any spell slots. Eldritch blast twice with agonizing and hex and still throw heals. I think my DM stopped planting healing potions 🧪 b/c I was reviving or topping off my party all the time.
I actually do think that Undying does have some interesting build strategy to it, and I don't just mean Death Ward stacking though that is another source of power. It's mostly based on how the spells and features it does have is far more enabled by the Invocations that Pact of the Chain unlocks.
Firstly, it is the only Warlock subclass that actually can utilize Pseudodragon Poison milking due to Feign Death. That is because in order to milk the familiar, it has to be incapacitated RAW. Feign Death is the only way to do that afaik. Simply commanding your familiar to be willing to have the spell used on them and voila, you can now milk it. As Investment of the Chain master, and you are either on a gold farm or making Slashing and Piercing damage from the party a lot more potent. Only other way to get Feign Death would be through taking 5 levels of Bard. Works for a Hexblade 2/Bard X build but not for any other Single Class Warlock other than Undying.
Secondly, Contagion is a sleeper. Not only in combat which can be delivered by your Familiar if you use both your own and its own Reactions to apply it, but even outside of combat. Imagine a Dracula-esque Warlock just sitting in a comfy armchair in front of a fireplace while their familiar is flying to the BBEG to put Contagion on them when they sleep at night due to your Voice of the Chain Master Invocation. What was already a good spying tool and is now also a way to get the pieces of the metaphorical chessboard put into place by weakening the enemy for up to a week. Could even be used to spread the fear of a plague.
Thirdly, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones does technically make Indestructible Life better than a Fighter's Indomitable. This might sound weird, but it's all about proportions. Fighters have a d10 hit die, so their feature is a d10. Likewise, Warlocks have a d8 hit die, so their feature is a d8. % wise it's the same. While Fighters do eventually get multiple uses between short rests, you can get a consistent use of it when you think that the 22-28 healing could make a potential difference. Situational, hence you don't need it often.
I could also add that an automatic up-cast of False Life could have its uses, especially if your sources for it are otherwise limited and you do not wish to spend feats for it.
Heck, Pact of the Tome could in theory also work for Undying. Get Shilleleigh, Find Familiar, and Tome of Ancient Secrets to ritual cast Feign Death, and you can maybe melee with False Life and get lesser poison from a Snake Familiar for some minor gold. I would not recommend that over Pact of the Chain, especially the part about going into melee but it could be done somewhat.
The familiar just needs to be asleep.
(I suppose you could argue that it doesn't sleep. But I think the reasonable assumption is that celestials, fey, and fiends all do sleep, and there's nothing saying the familiar is any different in this respect. Anyway, your DM is being a premier pain in the rear if they're insisting, both that an awake and willing familiar can't produce the poison [which already doesn't make sense], and that the familiar doesn't sleep either.)
I honestly don't know what you're saying about Indestructible Life. It's not comparable to Indomitable, which hopefully means you take less damage in the first place (obviously superior to taking more and then healing it), and also applies to things that are _worse_ than pure damage, such as most Wisdom saves, concentration checks, etc. And just in terms of its healing power... since you're 14th level and thus on par with other casters who can cast 7th-level spells, it's about the same as if your 14th-level Cleric buddy upcast _healing word_ as high as he possibly could (i.e., around 22 HP). Is that a good strategy, or a good class feature? And you have to have an invocation for it to even do that much!
@@dcarrano I'm not saying that Undying Warlock is a great subclass. Obviously, costing invocations slots to make it functional is not great at all. I'm saying that it can be built to be more interesting based off the features it does have and make it play differently from other Warlock Subclasses without being outright terrible.
As for commanding the familiar to sleep, I'm not entirely sure that can be done? Sure, the description of Find Familiar does state that it always obeys commands, but is it even able to sleep non-magically? If simply doing as you command it works RAW, I don't think there would be a debate regarding familiars being able to do things which requires hands. Heck, if it always does what is commanded of it, couldn't familiars then just fly even if they had no such ability simply because it was commanded to? I'm also thinking that by the fact that it is dismissed to a pocket dimension when it dies, I doubt then needs foods which implies that it may not need normal creature functions. But then again, the MM might define any creature needing such unless otherwise stated. Honestly, this is a giant can of worms come to think of it. If there is an answer to this, I'd want to know.
As for Indestructable Life vs Indomitable, my mistake. I have never played a Fighter and confused Indomitable with Second Wind. I meant Second Wind which does d10 healing+fighter level similarly to how Indestructable life gives d8+warlock level. Proportionally, these are the same in terms of how much healing it does to the total HP pool.
As for a Cleric buddy upcasting the healing; while Gift of the Ever-Living Ones in general might make a Cleric more willing to upcast healing on you; it is far from desirable to trade a spell slot for such at the end of the day. You have your own feature which could feasibly keep you up for another round if you know what is coming and have HP to spare. If something does 40 damage and you have 30, turning that into 52 would be nice. Wont happen often hence why you don't get the feature often.
@@BlazeLycan I'm not speculating that you're commanding it to sleep even though it normally doesn't. I'm saying my reading is that it _does_ sleep.
(With a backup argument that, even if it's debatable whether it does, why would the DM use both the ultra-RAW interpretation that it _has_ to be incapacitated even if it's willing, and the ultra-YMMV interpretation that it doesn't sleep? Hopefully the DM isn't deliberately trying to shut down the things PCs attempt, especially when those things are entirely reasonable.)
I agree that Indestructible Life is comparable to Second Wind... which is literally a 1st level feature. This is 14th level!! Your 14th level Cleric buddy indeed shouldn't upcast _healing word_ to 7th-level... he should do something appropriate to a 14th level character, such as cast _heal_ , which if upcast to 7th-level would heal *80* HP. That's my point here.
@@dcarrano I am unfamiliar with what YMMV stands for, and I think understanding this is crucial for me to understand the rest of your point. Mind elaborating what that means?
@@BlazeLycan Your Mileage May Vary. i.e., RAW says nothing about this so you're just deciding
You could roll every single feature of undying into a single feat and I still wouldn't take it unless for roleplay purposes
You are horribly underselling Celestial.
Non spell bonus action healing means you can revive allies while also casting a leveled spell with your action.
Flaming Sphere gives you all the usual benefits that having a bonus action damage option gives, and because it's fire damage you get to add your charisma to that. pretty much all of your damage dealing spells from your class benefit from your 6th level ability, which means that you're getting consistent value out of it. Even Sacred Flame has utility in the form of being a save based cantrip and ignoring cover, giving you a tactical alternative when EB is not optimal and still getting that damage buff.
Party wide bonus HP at no cost every rest is hardly a bad ability. Sure, it is comparable to a feat... but a feat is not a worthless commodity. Assuming charisma 20 by 10th level and a 4 man party that is 45 temp HP per rest at level 10.
Searing Vengeance is AMAZING as a comeback mechanic. Let's look at what you get at the start of your turn:
1) stand up for free, no movement cost.
2) half your HP back, no action.
3) A trivial amount of no save damage in a large area with no friendly fire. (pretty worthless)
4) Every enemy within 30 feet is blinded until the end of the current turn. No save, no friendly fire. If your party has any co-ordination at all, when the warlock goes down everyone holds their action until their initiative because once they stand back up the enemy is screwed. Offensively your party's attacks now have virtually guaranteed advantage. Any legendary attacks back or enemies with lower initiative than the warlock have disadvantage to retaliate.
Alternatively, this allows the entire party to run and/or hide with no attacks of opportunity and no way for the enemy to see them as they escape.
All this costs no actions so you can Searing Vengeance, bonus action heal to stand up a downed ally, and still blast away or cast a wall of fire to cover your retreat or whatever else you need to do. This ability can turn a close fight around because blindness is crippling and this applies it to a huge area with no friendly fire and no save.
Fathomless seems so cool. Thanks for this
Legit one of my favorites. Mine is a raving madman where his fathomless patron is still very cthulhu themed. With some nods to Bloodbourne lore he has an amazing backstory and I've got plans for him...and my poor unsuspecting party will be put through some shenanigans (the fun kind of course) >:)
I played an Aasimar Celestial Tomelock in AL for quite a while and really enjoyed it. Could I have been better in some ways? Sure. I think having the damage cantrip boost show up earlier would be good, for example, as would the pseudofeat that does Inspiring Leader.
Fathomless's 14th level ability is basically a fast travel if your party has an empty bag of holding, an ocean present in the campaign, and like a spare day in an area you want to return to, which is nice for returning to the bbeg's castle right before he summons cuthulu or smthn
Playing a celestial with the familiar feat that lets you max healing dice rolls on yourself leads to a pretty neat sustain bruiser. Also they can coffeelock easily since they get greater resto on their expanded spell list. Doesn't make them S tier but worth noting
I would put Dao Genie specifically above Fathomless just because of what you mentioned: the slowing and crowd control mechanics of it. What's better than a bonus action tentacle that can knock an enemy 10ft and deals 1d10? A spike growth that makes the area difficult terrain, deals 2d4 damage for every 5ft the enemy tries to move, and also combos with the Replling Blast even better since Dao Genie can add Bludgeoning Dmaage to the spell so it can combo with the Crusher Feat. This build gets off the ground super early too, so cheese gratering enemies to death and controlling the battlefield becomes more fun than ever!
Once upon a time, I made a 20th level Variant Human Great Old One Warlock character named Literally H.P. Lovecraft. I made every choice I could to keep him on theme, even giving him Magic Initiate at 1st level for the Cat Familiar, whom I _did not_ name.
I find it hilarious how tentacle of the deep is actually just a better spiritual weapon.
It's more than just that but I see what you mean.
Keep up the awesome work Kobold,you too Gator😉
Master of hexes is a really underrated feature with curse related invocations. At 14th level you're already getting most of hex's bonus damage for free, so relentless hex for misty step or maddening hex for damage/cc with nothing but features and bonus actions and no concentration, VSM, or spell slots needed. A hexblade with ghostly gaze and relentless hex can be blindfolded, gagged, restrained, out of spells, and alone anywhere, but still easily escape if literally any creature is within a range of 30ft at any point.
By the way, there is a *Reeeally* cheesy strat with Searing Vengeance Spehs Merhenes - you and your friends all get ready, buy/acquire some flying mount, fly right above the enemy, start blasting "Angels of Death", fall down (calculation required - the fall damage should KILL you, but not put you into too much *negative* HP [the amount of your max HP] or you'll die), activate Searing Vengeance, deal a crapton of damage to any hostiles in your general area, start circlejerking healing.
2:00 I understand that "slowed" and "difficult terrain" share that you move at half speed essentially, but that's all the similarities. Plant growth causing people within to be slowed would be ridiculously broken
3:05 How does archfey warlock's Misty Escape open up the warlock to be damaged more? I think it's a pretty good 1-round defense, albeit not a good enough feature
I'm a bit confused at 3:00 , why does misty escape open you up to being attacked more? Isn't teleporting away from an attacker and creatures having disadvantage on targeting you until the invisibility ends really good for your defense?
I think misty escape isn't as useful as most people think it is. It's a situational feature if you play well. I think having armor is just massively better for you and very consistent. This is just a once per short rest resource and sure the invisibility helps but it's not that big of an upgrade.
@@PackTacticsyou also need to hold on to your reaction to use it, which does open you up to more attacks in the sense you could have used shield
@@PackTactics Fair
Because it doesn't mitigate the attack, you have to _take_ damage for it to trigger in the first place. That's only really useful if you're somehow caught in the middle of a hoard of enemies.
@@joda7697 Its also extremely useful against creatures who use multiattack. They use their first attack against you, but then you teleport out of their reach. This can potentially waste 1 or more of their attacks if no one else is in their reach.
I actually like GOOlock a lot because while mechanically it may not be super impressive I like telepathically communicating with my party members basically whenever I want.
*_Not me beaming "you should steal that thing" into the Rogue's head so they get in trouble_*
A month late but i want to defend archfey warlock.A little at least. Its 1st level feature is next to useless in combat except for this rare situation where you have done something very badly and are now surrounded by fighters about to impale you on their longsword, in this situation it is better that disengage because they cannot just move to you next turn and attack then. But outside of this very specific situation it has one other use, one that makes if decent.
Charmed condition has two effects - charmed creature cannot attack charmer and charmer has advantage on ability checks to socially interact with charmed creature. Fey Presence has no listed indication that it is being used, nor has it mentioned anywhere that targets notice that they were charmed. Meaning that it can be used as 1/short rest advantage on social roll. Not reliable one as it requires saving throw but it could save warlocks skin once in a while when he makes very important social roll that he needs all bonuses he could get.
Misty Escape is on other hand notable by the fact that it comes online just after most creatures gain more than one attack and much before they can move 60ft at once. Meaning that while it does not protect you from this attack it does protect from ones that could follow. Not the most powerfull feature but i would describe it as kind of good.... mabye....it is a little good at least.
Beguiling Defenses. I have nothing to defend Beguiling Defenses beyond that charm immunity is good, rest is a little useless.
Only good thing about Dark Delirium is that it does not allow saves after initial one was failed. If you go with charmed option then it can see only you and illusion but cannot attack you because of condition effectively trapping it in state where it cannot do anything useful. Maybe it could be counted as being out of combat for purposes of charm monster since creature trapped literally cannot fight?If so then it could be used like that: you cast it on creature to pull it out of combat, charm it and then use your high charisma and advantage on social rolls to convince it to turn on its friends and then return to combat with an ally in tow.
Here's a simple rework of the Undying Warlock's features:
[not doing Spells because that'd take a lot of time]
*Among the Dead*
Starting at 1st level, you learn the Toll the Dead Cantrip. You also have Advantage on Saving Throws against disease.
Additionally, your exposure to the undead has given you a tolerance against their attacks. You gain Resistance against Cold and Necrotic damage.
*Defy Death*
Starting at 6th level, you have learned to absorb the other half of the necrotic energy that you would otherwise deflect away when hit by it, cancelling it out entirely. You are now Immune to necrotic damage.
*Undying Nature*
Starting at 10th level, you don't need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep. You still must Long Rest normally in order to gain its effects, however. You are immune to Exhaustion upon obtaining this feature, but must recover any of the points you already have naturally. Additionally, You only age 1 year for every 10 that you live, and are immune to magical aging.
*Indestructible Life*
When you reach 14th level, the natural life force and necrotic energy suffusing your body become as one. You are now immune to effects that would prevent you from recovering hit points. Additionally, when you cast a Spell under the school of Necromancy, roll a Charisma Saving Throw against double the Spell's level. If you succeed, you do not lose the Spell Slot used to cast the Spell.
idea for the Celestial Radian Soul (6) feature: resistance to Radiant damage. your spells that deal Radiant or Fire damage mark 1 target hit, causing it to take your Warlock level Radiant damage each time its gets hit by a damaging attack or spell during the next minute.
that "I'm getting sleepy -w- " was just so adorable, I can't even
Genie all the way. Getting a Chaotic good patron is way cooler (subjectively for me) than having an evil one which could go against the parties and the dm's expectations.
I know a lot of people are defending Celestial already, but in a gritty realism game (specifically 8hr short rest, 7 day LR, lasting injuries), it may be one of the best builds in the game. I play a reborn Owlin Celestial Warlock with divinely favored (for goodberry) and it’s everything a cleric is but more fun. It gives me so much space to make suboptimal rp choices because my mechanics can back me up.
First tier list I've seen put Fathomless Lock highest. I have played two Fathomless Locks as they are my favorite subclass. Totally agree that they are the premier lock subclass. Now to convince people that Pact of the Talisman is one of the best pacts and that Tomb of Levistus is one of the best invocations as both are solid and both get called bad.
You've forgot the subclass so powerful, that they published it in its own separate document: the Undying Light warlock. Level 6 feature: Searing Vengeance...Once per long rest, whenever you would make a death saving throw, you can immediately get up with half your HP and all enemies within 30ft take 10+CHA Mod radiant damage and are BLINDED until the end of your turn.
Finally, someone acknowledging Warlock for more than just a few level dips into it.
Create Thrall is actually very good, just not for immediate combat.
You basically get a servant until a remove curse spell is used on them !
And there's no saving throw !
It's a great social and infiltration feature.
love a tier list
Celestials can get really good mileage out of Gift if the Ever Living Ones for blasty tank builds.
Ludicsavant wrote up an excellent build with celestial called “The Ever-Living Generalist” that is 19 giftlock and it goes crazy
Agree with most here but I would rate celestial B-tier, hexblade A-tier [shout out to banishing smite w/ eldritch smite] and fathomless significantly lower, like B-tier
Fathomless #1 is a hot take. I certainly respect it even though i personally would move it behind Undead. Fathomless is so underrated that its cool to see it get gassed up for once
hexblade being b is crazy. hexblade should definitely be S tier
You didn't listen to the video.
@ i did. you talked about how the expanded spell list wasn't that good amd that it isn't that strong by itself. however there are so many amazing combos with hexblade (without multiclassing). its really strong, probably one of the best if not the best warlock
I can think of a reason to play Celestial.
Flavor. That's it. I'm in a campaign where I wanted to play a Warlock, it was a Curse of Strahd campaign, and so we all decided to play as characters diametrically opposed to Undead. (Cleric of Kelemvor, vampire hunter Barbarian, and me. Celestial Warlock, who made a pact with Jergal.)
I'd like to see more effort put into your thoughts on Celestial. "I see no reason to play them" isn't really explaining why
I just went over their features and spells. Is it healing itself you're questioning? Then I recommend watching my healing video. ruclips.net/video/toolWm5-HIc/видео.htmlsi=6ylaD9u113OBBlJc
Yo! I'm a Lvl 1 hospitality halfing warlock. I take an exhaustion level and skip my long rest and then short rest 8 times in order to cast goodberry 16 times to have extra 160 goodberries for a dungeon.
I had a genie warlock, and she had bracers of illusion so she was basically a sorlock but was full warlock. her eldritch blasts did more damage than 9th level disinitigrates and it was funny seeing her eat a disintigrate, then fire back with something twice as strong xD.
i am here for the cute icons of each subclass !
🐊
Love that it's the opposite of a normal bell curve 😂
Feels almost intentional
My current character is a swashbuckler rogue dipped into fathomless. We're level8 atm so its a 6/2 split. That slow effect comboed with a booming blade sneak attack is so good
Base DnD GOOlock doesn't have mortal reminder? That's like a build defining feature!
The genie bomber. Fill your vessels extra dimensional space with whatever you want to drop. Have your familiar fly it over the enemy. Push the stuff out of your vessel.
Fathomless fun: Check out the spell Dream Sending of Cthulhu and convince your DM it should be on your spell list at lev 5.
Undead/Chain and that Sprite are so damned fun when you have menacing and can twin cast Haste.
One thing to note about the celestial warlock ls that you can use Spirit shroud radiant + EB to max out the lvl 6 feature
You have better options like hypnotic pattern. Spirit shroud is shit.
so.. idea for gift of the sea... if you are in a cloudkill or stinkcloud type effect (or any effect that'd restrict breathing or cause spell effects for you breathing in) cast create (or destroy) water to create water at your feet. then use shape water (will have to aquire from pact of tome or other means) to shape the water around your head allowing you to breath without suffering the effects. if need be you may have to freeze the outer layer of water around your head (if the dm doesnt just let it float around your head)..
I’m really looking forward to the 2024 changes to Archfey assuming they’re similar to the playtest. It looks like they got the subclass features a lot more functional, if a bit obsessed with misty step. It’s my favourite warlock theme so I would like it to be more optimal.
I love playing a Fathomless!
🌊🐊
Where they screwed up the celestial warlock for me is that they just had an expanded spelllist with cleric spells and not just the choice to pick cleric spells as with divine soul sorcerer.
Where DS allows you to have cleric spells with metamagic, celestial would allow you to cast high level cleric spells that return on short rest, that would make it more interesting
You totally skipped over the fact that Undead Warlocks become IMMUNE to necrotic damage when using form of dread. Depending on the campaign that can completely break encounters.
Fathomless is legitimately one of the best warlock subclasses. It practically tells you what to do. You get a feature that slows. You get Sleet Storm and Black Tentacles. The whole subclass is *screaming* "please use me to trap enemies in area hazards". Are there seriously people who *don't* see this as one of the best warlock subclasses?
I think the Hexblade was underrated here. Yeah, its non-1st level features are not great. But It's still solid. The damage increase from Hexblade's Curse is actually nothing to scoff at if you're running a Polearm Master Blade Pact warlock. With Lifedrinker you're capping out at 3 attacks per turn with a guaranteed *+16 damage* on each of them. If you connect with all three (and you should since you're attacking off your spellcasting stat) you're looking at a clean 48 damage *before you've even rolled 3d10 + any Hex/Spirit Shroud shenanigans' worth of dice.* As a point of comparison, your run of the mill Eldritch Blaster is looking at a maximum of 4d10+20 damage at level 17.
I think you also underestimate just how valuable attacking off Charisma is. Having only one key stat instead of 2 makes all the difference between picking up all the cool feats that take your build up to 11 and being stuck gobbling your bland and boring ability score increases again and again.
One day I wanna try Fathomless, features aside I love water theme stuff and using it despite people thinking is bad. People only think any water themed subclass it's bad because Big Bang Theory infected people with Aquaman hate and I don't need proof of this, I have conviction.
13:13; "...What a joke." The point of the spell is to cast it on an incapacitated target then heal them, and now you have a little helper.
Or get any sleeping NPC permanently charmed (with no saves) and since warlock is a charisma class, easily convince them to come along.
Good job, Kobold!
Hexblade warlocks also get a tellport when you have someone with the Hexblade's curse just thought that would have been pointed out
I know this is very specific, but I'd be interested in seeing how you would change the more "meh" subclasses in your tier list. Specifically the Celestial, since I'm playing one currently and wouldn't mind pitching some good tweaks to my DM, heh.
Keep them coming.
The fact the genie warlock isn’t in first place is crazy to me. It’s the only warlock that can take a short rest whenever they want.