In this video, I say "direct command/computer control" a couple of times. Of course, DCC means "Digital Command Control." I blame nerves, fighting with myself, and the commies.
In older time there was analog control of the layout before digital system arrived. AC= alternate current which was synonym with Märklin analog. DC= direct current was power feeder for the two rail system like Fleischmann, Roco etc. Today we use digital system that allows for both 2 rail and Märklin tracks and you can use either DCC or and MM/mfx protocols on the track. The question is if which one of them are best to use and in this case i see 2 rail are easy and cheaper than Märklin tracks. If you want more pro i recommended you 2 rail tracks which you can use ballast with waterglue without problem while Märklin are more difficult because of the thin sheet metal under the Märklin K-tracks. In this case you have to protect thin sheet metal with spray anti-rust paint.
The problem is so many people use the terminology in different ways and interpret it. Originally AC and DC was JUST the powering system and most AC power systems worked on 3-rail tracks... like Lionel O gauge and Märklin HO, among others. Today, many people in the UK and US say "DCC" when they really mean "digital" and "DC" when they mean analog. I am fully aware that most control systems read both MM/MFX and DCC protocol, the problem is when using terminology that is misused or someone has a very narrow view of the meanings and see the meanings only one way. I am trying to explain it in the most open sense and, everything you said I say in this video and others. You still can not use 2-Rail track with 3-Rail vehicles, regardless of control system. I am full 3-Rail Märklin and am not that concerned about having the track look completely realistic. Plenty of great Märklin layouts on RUclips have C-Track and make it look very realistic on their layouts. In this video I am merely pointing out the differences in track and systems and not trying to convert people from one to the other. Most of these videos were meant to explain what I use to friends and family who were interested in what I was doing. My channel grew and suddenly folks from around the world are watching. The more the merrier.
Lol ... that was a nice one ... AC/DC ... and you will spend a lot of money and if the wife find's it out, well ... She maybe switch your track to the highway of hell ... >;) ... but I enjoyed that discuss a lot ... for me was AC always the right choice since I had always a table train layout with a lot of "Backloops". Only later in time I took over the trains of my father to join mine ... have fun ... Luma.
@@runesvensson1244 Ave Rune, First, Anthony Dodge is an American, myself I am living in Portugal. And yes you can buy US trains that run on AC, without the need of convert them, since these models are already produced to run on AC rails. Märklin produced since the 60ties a lot of models of the EMD F7, most are Analog versions, later in time some Digital and even in the last years they produced a lot of them in a modern Digital Sound version. But like Anthony says in his video, these are quit expensive. You can see a lot of them by entering in google “Diesellokomotive F7 Märklin” and see the pictures and text. In the DC World you will find an endless kind of American, Canadian trains ... I hope I could help you in your question … have fun ... Luma
Rivarossi used to sell 2 and 3 rail o gauge that ran on track with wooden roadbed. The trains are pretty rare but were gorgeous metal scale models of Italian trains.
It is amazing the stories I get from folks about the trains from these companies, especially "back in the day." I am so ignorant of this world and love to see and hear what folks have and know. Many of these videos were done specifically for friends, family, and students (as I doubted anybody else would ever watch). I have learned more and see errors, or have had them pointed out to me, but it helped my target audience understand what I was doing and talking about.
Trix express switched from welchstrom to gleichstrom in 1956, they even offered a track powered batteriebahn. I think A company offered battery powered 3 rail o gauge and the train was plastic, can't remember the brand. I know it's rare though.
There was a time when 3-Rail was the dominant, then it all changed in the 50s and most went DC/2-Rail. I think a lot of it was the scarcity of metal and it was just quicker and easier to do 2 rail items.
One thing to mention here is that back in the day ('30's, 40's and 50's) the DC power packs couldn't run S scale or above. They just couldn't produce the power needed to move those locomotives. I know a few folks that have converted old S scale to DC now because the supplies can output the power needed. One other thing I have heard is that the S scalers have talked about is the noise level Apparently, AC for the larger scales can be an issue. I'm and old HO scale DC guy. I have 6 blocks on my layout. With its size, I did exactly what you talked about with running "buses and feeders". Each "area" of my layout (all 36'x8') is broken into smaller bits. Mainly so if I ever move again, the layout can be broken down and moved. That was build into the design. Each loop has its own bus and every so often, I dropped feeders down from the rails to meet the bus. I don't have power issues (thankfully).
That I have also since learned. I was told very early on in my research that almost all model trains were AC powered until the 50s. The other problem is how the acronyms "DC" and "DCC" have evolved multiple meanings and folks argue them. We have AC and DC in regards to electrical current but, in the UK and elsewhere folks discuss "DC vs DCC" when, technically they mean "analog vs digital." In the German/Mainland Europe model train world "DCC" and "MM/MFx" are the two primary chip programming languages/protocols (Think Windows vs Mac), even though DCC simply meant "Digital command control" and thus, MM/MFx is a "form" of DCC (not code-based, but MM/MFx is a form of digital command control, as opposed to analogue). I get folks arguing with me about digital and analog when I am talking electrical current flow, or argue DC/DCCC when I am talking digital stuff. Everybody has an interpretation- and I go to the base meanings.
would it be possible to install a 3 rail pick-up on a 2 rail locomotive and rewire it to run it on 3 rail or does the entire motor needs to be changed?
Please also remember not to refer to DC as direct control since in electrical terminology it is only used for direct current This reminds me of the argument over watts and Volt Amps they are the same thing merely two different ways of expressing the same thing both are voltage x current = Total output Marklin still uses VA in it's nomenclature today Also buy having the 2 outside rails you have better grounding
Actually Watts are not always the same as VA. In an AC circuit, the voltage and current can be out of phase, hence VA can be greater than Watts. Watts = VA x cos ø (power factor). It doesn't make much difference in most practical circuits but they are NOT the same.
My main reasons for choosing 2R (DCC) over 3R are: * 2R track looks more realistic, without those unrealistic looking 3R centrenobs. + The 3R ski under the train doesn't look prototypical. * Märklin is more or less a monopoly manufacfurer for 3R, thus they can charge more for their stuff with less concern about competition (just like Apple does). * Lots of manufacturers make stock and tracks for 2R - making more options available, plus bigger competition makes them compete on price. You addressed the latter reason in the end, but I don't think you addressed the first reason. Any accessories connected to track power will drain from the power supply, regardless of AC or DC, but AC does not suffer voltage drop in the same way DC does. Thus your argument is very valid for analogue layouts. When it comes to digital layouts, this is not the case anymore, as digital 2R and digital 3R both utilize square wave high frequency AC to power the tracks, meaning there is no electrotechnical differences when it comes to voltage drops. The biggest electrical / technical difference between digital 2R and digital 3R are the (lack of) need for reversing electronics when it comes to "reversing loops" on the layout. 3R doesn't require them because the centrenobs are always in the centre and the rails are electrically connected anyway, whereas a reversing loop will cause short circuits on a 2R layout without reversing electronics to prevent such shorts. Many layouts don't have reversing loops, and those that do have them, only has one or a few, thus the extra cost for reverse electronics is quite neglectable in the bigger picture. If you want to run multiple trains independently of each other on an analogue 3R layout, this required electrical insulation and isolation as well, just as analogue 2R requires it. However, you are right that two trains on an analogue 3R layout can be made to run in opposite directions of each other without insulation and isolation, but then both trains start and stop together, as they always run on the same AC voltage level. Thus, to park an analogue 3R train on a siding, while running other trains on the main loop, 3R analogue layouts would require insulation and isolation of that siding just as much as if it were an analogue 2R layout. Other than reversing loops, there are no more needs for insulation or isolation on a digital 2R layout than on a digital 3R layout. Many still opt to insulate and polarize electrically powered frogs (where the tracks cross each other) on 2R turnouts, but with insulated frogs this is not really necessary. It is however required if you use turnouts with electrically powered frogs on 2R layouts. An electrical frog also requires some switch to connect the frog to rail A or rail B, depending on the turnouts position (direct or diverting). This is usually handled by switches built into the solenoid drive or motor that controls the turnout. Also, most modern powered models are made to work with both (analogue or digital) 2R operations and digital 3R operations. The motor is essentially the same on both systems now. You add or remove the 3R ski, and you swap the wheels, but the engine is the same. As a matter of fact, many multi protocol decoders will work just as well with both 2R DCC or one of the digital 3R protocols, so not even the decoder has to be changed (given it meets both specs (for the digital 2R and the digital 3R protocols used by the control station(s))). 3R ski and wheels are often the only things that needs to be changed to convert a modern locomotive between digital 2R and digital 3R operations. Hybrid layouts with separated 2R tracks and 3R tracks exist. They can even be controlled by the same control station, such as the multi protocol Roco Z21. Then you can actually have two versions of the very same locomotive, with identical motors and decoders, where one locomotive runs on 2R and is controlled over DCC while the other locomotive which runs on 3R is controlled over Motorola or MFX protocol. Or even vice versa, if you really want to complicate stuff for yourself. The only difference between these locomotives would be how they pick up the two electrical connections: * wheels + ski (3R), or * wheel A + wheel B (2R) Everything else could (and often would) be equal.
I am aware of what you bring up and point it out. I have always said precise realism is not important to me. As far as most models working on both, it is usually just a matter of chaing the wiring and adding or removing the shoe- the decoders and motors work with both systems. However, many manufacturers tell you certain models will not work well in analogue mode if they are made digital- so read the fine print. It is true, and I mention it in this video and following videos (remember, this is a series... not trying to cover it all in one episode), that all systems read the decoders. One of the problems is that many modelers use the terms "DC" to refer to analogue operation as well as two rail currents- which gets folks confused. Many modelers will talk about DC vs DCC when they really mean "analogue vs digital." Remember, these videos were meant to simplify and explain basics for beginners, not give a master's level course in model trains and how they work. Basics. When we start worrying about "prototypical" or what looks exactly as it does in reality, (being a rivet counter) we all lose because such people scare others from the hobby. We have too many who want expect and want everyone to build completely realistic and fully prototyped layouts and are quite critical of those who don't. I am explaining what I am learning about my world of trains to friends and family, as well as beginners who, like me, could be overwhelmed by folks who want to overload the information. I have run into too many in my first couple of years. I prefer the 3 Rail system, regardless of the issues over how realistic it is for the ease of operation, because it does require much less wiring and work. DC/DCC has not caught up with AC/C-Track in that regard The skis/shoes are hidden well enough on eye-level views that it is not a big issue. I prefer 3 Rail for the advantages, if you do not think those advantages are worth the system, then you build 2 rail. It is not an issue. There is a choice out there, and the hobby allows both. As far as pricing- it is more expensive to make the track in 3 Rail, but Marklin is also caught in the situation where it has to be competitive with 2 rail, so, even though it dominates the 3R market, it does not go crazy with pricing because folks can either switch to 2Rail or plenty of companies, like Piko and Roco, can make 3R models cheaper. There is a reason Marklin is the largest Model train company in the world, whether via Trix, LGB or it's 3 Rail HO systems. So, again, folks have choices. Choices are good. I like mine; it suits what I am after. You know what you like, and that is great. Enjoy the hobby.
@@ModelTrainOutsider I'm not trying to criticise your choice of 3R. I simply wanted to express why I choose what I've chosen, as a response to you explaining why you've chosen to stick to what you've "chosen". I also addressed some statements I considered to be wrong or too biased. Basically to give some balance. I also wanted to point out that I think you give 2R and analogue DC an unfair bad reputation, talking about dead spots (as if the train suddenly gets to a spot with no power), insulation, isolation and excessive cabling. It's almost as if you have a need to defend your choice of 3R, or you relay what others with such needs have communicated (as it seems from this video that you have no personal experience with 2R). This impression is amplified because it seems to be that your choice of the 3R system was more based on a coincidence than an actual choice, as you say you didn't know about 2R and the options when you started out. Afterwards you've chosen to stick to that "choice", and that's perfectly fine. I also consider there to be some very important differences between realism and rivet counting. Purple, pink or red pine trees are unrealistic. The same trees as green are more realistic. Rivet counting is more like getting hung up on the number of branches, the distances between them, and so forth. That's a totally different genre in my book. Maybe not to you. In no way do I consider my reply to be even in the same ballpark as rivet counting. Again, you may think differently. If you choose to have pink pine trees on your layout, I don't care. Your layout, your realm. You are King and Emporor in your realm, and can do whatever you desire. However, if you express why you think one is better than the other, or why you've made your choices, you're also inviting others to make similar expressions. Which is what I did. DC operation is correctly interpreted as analogue 2R. It has nothing to do with 3R, analogue or not. DCC operation is correctly interpreted as digital operation, but can be used on both 2R and 3R. However, digital 3R is more commonly run with MFX, or previously the Motorola protocol. AC operation is similarly used to refer to analogue 3R. The confusion arises when DC is used to describe 2R and AC is used to describe 3R, regardless of digital or analogue operation. DC doesn't make sense for digital 2R operation. DCC is more accurate, but not 100% as I've mentioned. If you wanted to address this confusion of these labels / expressions / terms, then calling the episode "AC and DC tracks" is basically you doing exactly what you in your reply criticise others of doing. My initial reply was intended to give some balance to your video, including to correct some technical details about 2R operation that you seemed inexperienced with. When saying 2R requires lots of insulation and isolation (including for a simple siding) whereas 3R does not, you're basically comparing analogue 2R multi-train operations with digital 3R multi-train operations. That's neither fair nor balanced, which is why I addressed that, and similar subjects. To me, I got the impression that in your eager to keep the video "simple and basic", you described 2R as being more complicated and less functional than it really is. 2R doesn't REQUIRE lots of more cabling than 3R does, with reversing loops being the only actual exception to this. Reversing loops require something reversing the electricity - either an extra device that can swap track polarity automatically within "milliseconds", or a manual switch to do the same. The voltage drops on a layout has to do with two physical properties. 1) The crossection of whatever is transporting the current. For model railroading, this basically means the rails. 2) Poor connectivity in joints. For model railroading, this basically means the joints between individual tracks / track sections. For a given used amount of current, this voltage drop will be the same, whether we're talking about AC or DC operation. However, 3R tracks has an extra conductor (the third rail), thus has a wider total crossection than 2R tracks. This reduces voltage drops slightly, but hardly recognisable on an average layout where the locomotive rarely will be more than 10 metres from the feeder wires. Put shortly, a 2R DCC layout operating on a single 3 ampere booster, doesn't NEED lots of extra wiring. With insulfrog turnouts, your turnouts doesn't need wiring. The only thing NEEDING extra wiring (as mentioned) is reversing loops. If your layout doesn't have reversing loops, there is really no difference between 2R and 3R in simplicity, if that's what you're going for. However, because track joints and fishplates can be a source of bad connectivity over time, they will increase the voltage drop on the layout, as their resistance increases. Thus it is often considered a good practice to have a wide gauge bus wire which has a bigger crossection than the tracks, and at various places connect feeder wires between the bus wire and the tracks. This will be beneficial for both 2R and 3R operations (analogue as well as digital), but is also optional for both track types (up to a certain sized layout). The bigger crossection of 3R tracks means a 3R layout can be somewhat bigger than a 2R layout before this becomes an issue, but for any beginner this isn't something you need to consider. It's a common misconception to think that DC itself is the source of higher voltage drop, and think that's the reason the electrical grid is AC based. What causes the voltage drop is actually the amount of current that goes through a cable, and the reason for the electricity grid to be AC is that you can use transformers to increase the voltage, and thus decrease the amperage going through the cables. DC cannot be transformed to high voltage in a similar fashion. This is not a subject in model railroading. They typicalky operate somewhere between 12 and 18 volt, regardless of system or rail architecture. Any given locomotive running at full speed needs the same amount of power, regardless of the protocol communicating with the decoder, and regardless of the track architecture. Thus it's basically using the same amount of current, given the voltage is the same in either system being compared.
In HO, there's a sizable, but spread out, community. I think the NMRA said they have over 150,000 members who are HO 3-Rail. As most modelers are not NMRA, I would assume there's easily more than 500,000, and probably a lot more. In O-scale, 3-Rail dominates.
wish i had the brain capacity to actually look into stuff before buying stuff. I now have a shit load of DC model trains, with the right kind of track. But i also have 2 Marklin locs which run on AC, and require a third rail in the middle. I have noticed that the Marklin does run if i supply dc to the pickups, but i guess that wont last for ever. I guess i will destroy it very fast> Anyway, they are locomotives. I do not think they will be worthless. And so i think i could just as well resell em.
btw, i bought a very nice Märklin h0 3093 steam loc.... Only paid 45 euro for it. Meanwhile i have a few Fleischmann locs that i am bidding for on catawiki, and they already are around 100 euro. Euro is roughly the same as dollar. Roughly. Anyways, i think i was lucky with the Märklin, or more people wanna get into DC stuff. When the Märklin loc i bought first arrived, i was wondering: what the heck is this middle rail doing underneath it. Tried to power it, no go. On DC track. So i then tried to power the wheel and the middle rail, and it does work. But, i have no clue if i am actually damaging the engine or not by putting DC current on it. I remember when i was 5 years of age, maybe 6. We had a gigantic lay out, mountains, houses, lights, moving cars. But i was stupid, still am, and destroyed the locs one by one. I never understood the value. It broke my father's heart, or so i was told by him later in life. And to this day i could cry about it. But if you leave a kid alone with such a toy and you have not raised him the right way, or the kid is just stupid (like i am, but also perhaps a bit of the raising part that did not work out), they will explore and destroy. But it did make sure i was hooked to trains for ever. I just never had the chance to actually build something. No money, no space, etc. And now, 36 years later, i saw the light. I have the room. I got a bit of money to waste..... not too much but at least to start it the right way. And then mr Stupid walks in again and decides: "Ah, i wanna start this hobby. Let me buy the nice scale, H0. Like we had at home. Wauw, that looks like a nice steam locomotive. Märklin, i heard about them, they are great. I gotta have it. YES, i won the bidding..... Now, bit of track, wait, another nice looking Locomotive. Fleischmann, i heard about them as well.... they are great. I gotta have it. YES, i won the bidding. Wait, Roco, Lima, they look nice enough, bit cheaper. Gotta have em all. Bit more track as well..." Packages arrive. Let me lay out some track and test. Nice, Roco works, Lima works, what the heck is wrong with you Märklin???? You look so damn pretty and you aint running? Are you KAPUTT? " And then i thought: Let me check youtube a bit. And you were the first video that popped up after i entered some search terms. I know, it is an old video. But still very helpful for dummies like me. But man, i really should do it the other way around. When will i ever learn"? Probably never. PS, sorry for being a troll, and writing books. I am just that kind of person. If it is TL, then DR.
sorry for the books i wrote. But my main question in all of the stuff is basically this: Would it damage a Märklin engine if it is fed DC power? I somehow do have a brain to convert the track i have now to have a middle rail. Might not look as nice as factory build, but it would function. But can i just feed it DC? Or does i need another Transformer to put AC on it? @@ModelTrainOutsider
@bertjesklotepino it will not run. Damage? It will short out your system, the same as putting Märklin rolling stock on DC track. DC rolling stock has insulated wheels/axles. Märklin do not. Putting a Märklin piece of rolling stock on 2-rail track is like laying a piece of metal across the rails- instant ZZZZTTT.
Thank you for making me feel even more stupid than i already knew i was. I do not mean this the wrong way sir, obviously. I am very happy that you just lid up a candle in my head. As Johnny Cash once sang in an old Columbo episode: I saw the light. I should have been able to figure that out myself. Thank you for saving me. And this wonderful looking Märklin engine. Anyways, the very first thing i am gonna do is check youtube and your channel.And others. And buy a book explaining it a bit more in detail. Should have done that before starting this "new" hobby.@@ModelTrainOutsider ps: i am dutch, excuse the errors in spelling and grammar. And thank you for the replies. Did not expect that to happen on a video that is 5 years old.
Hey budro. Hoping you can help.. you just might be the guy that could help me.. I want to hang a shelf around my pub at the house and it's about a 14 x 16 room. I have 2 trains but want to run one track and probably just one of the trains at a time.. my older train is from the 80s. Lionel James Gamg. The original track was the metal 3 rail and the transformer has both ac and dc posts but the train engine is supposed to have a dc motor I'm told? The newer train is a lionel western telegraph with the hand held remote and is Ac.. I've bought some EZ 3 rail track which both trains should run on. I've been told I will burn up my older train if I try to run it on ac? If that's true, is there a way to connect up the power for both but throw a switch to change the power to dc when running the older train? Ever heard of doing this? Would like to be able to talk to somebody.. just clueless what to do. Jim
Hi Jim, you can NOT run the old DC train on the 3 rail, you will fry it. And, you can not make a track work AC and DC together. Some guys do have AC and DC mixed layouts, but the loops are isolated and trains do not cross. The best option, if you want 3 rail/AC is to get the old DC converted to AC. It is not difficult and there are plenty of how-to videos, you just need to get the right wheels and the ski... or send it to a shop and they will convert it- more expensive but guaranteed. I have never converted a train myself. Just as an aside, the company Brawa introduced cars designed to work both AC and DC... it failed, and they quit after 2 years.
@@ModelTrainOutsider thanks buddy. Found vids on Benz Trainz channel. The red lionel 8005 general lion chief he converted is my exact train. He installed a full wave bridge rectifier. Think I got my answer.. thanks so much though.. stay calm and train on.. jim
In this video, I say "direct command/computer control" a couple of times. Of course, DCC means "Digital Command Control." I blame nerves, fighting with myself, and the commies.
In older time there was analog control of the layout before digital system arrived.
AC= alternate current which was synonym with Märklin analog.
DC= direct current was power feeder for the two rail system like Fleischmann, Roco etc.
Today we use digital system that allows for both 2 rail and Märklin tracks and you can use either DCC or and MM/mfx protocols on the track.
The question is if which one of them are best to use and in this case i see 2 rail are easy and cheaper than Märklin tracks.
If you want more pro i recommended you 2 rail tracks which you can use ballast with waterglue without problem while Märklin are more difficult because of the thin sheet metal under the Märklin K-tracks. In this case you have to protect thin sheet metal with spray anti-rust paint.
The problem is so many people use the terminology in different ways and interpret it. Originally AC and DC was JUST the powering system and most AC power systems worked on 3-rail tracks... like Lionel O gauge and Märklin HO, among others. Today, many people in the UK and US say "DCC" when they really mean "digital" and "DC" when they mean analog. I am fully aware that most control systems read both MM/MFX and DCC protocol, the problem is when using terminology that is misused or someone has a very narrow view of the meanings and see the meanings only one way. I am trying to explain it in the most open sense and, everything you said I say in this video and others. You still can not use 2-Rail track with 3-Rail vehicles, regardless of control system. I am full 3-Rail Märklin and am not that concerned about having the track look completely realistic. Plenty of great Märklin layouts on RUclips have C-Track and make it look very realistic on their layouts. In this video I am merely pointing out the differences in track and systems and not trying to convert people from one to the other. Most of these videos were meant to explain what I use to friends and family who were interested in what I was doing. My channel grew and suddenly folks from around the world are watching. The more the merrier.
I am just watching these videos for the sections where you argue with yourselves.
Well, the fights occur all over. FF will help! lol
Lol ... that was a nice one ... AC/DC ... and you will spend a lot of money and if the wife find's it out, well ... She maybe switch your track to the highway of hell ... >;) ... but I enjoyed that discuss a lot ... for me was AC always the right choice since I had always a table train layout with a lot of "Backloops". Only later in time I took over the trains of my father to join mine ... have fun ... Luma.
Joyce is quite supportive of the hobby, as you will see later on. 😊
(Assuming you are American) Do you have to convert trains or can you buy US trains that run on AC?
@@runesvensson1244 Ave Rune,
First, Anthony Dodge is an American, myself I am living in Portugal. And yes you can buy US trains that run on AC, without the need of convert them, since these models are already produced to run on AC rails. Märklin produced since the 60ties a lot of models of the EMD F7, most are Analog versions, later in time some Digital and even in the last years they produced a lot of them in a modern Digital Sound version. But like Anthony says in his video, these are quit expensive.
You can see a lot of them by entering in google “Diesellokomotive F7 Märklin” and see the pictures and text.
In the DC World you will find an endless kind of American, Canadian trains ... I hope I could help you in your question … have fun ... Luma
Rivarossi used to sell 2 and 3 rail o gauge that ran on track with wooden roadbed. The trains are pretty rare but were gorgeous metal scale models of Italian trains.
It is amazing the stories I get from folks about the trains from these companies, especially "back in the day." I am so ignorant of this world and love to see and hear what folks have and know. Many of these videos were done specifically for friends, family, and students (as I doubted anybody else would ever watch). I have learned more and see errors, or have had them pointed out to me, but it helped my target audience understand what I was doing and talking about.
Trix express switched from welchstrom to gleichstrom in 1956, they even offered a track powered batteriebahn.
I think A company offered battery powered 3 rail o gauge and the train was plastic, can't remember the brand. I know it's rare though.
There was a time when 3-Rail was the dominant, then it all changed in the 50s and most went DC/2-Rail. I think a lot of it was the scarcity of metal and it was just quicker and easier to do 2 rail items.
One thing to mention here is that back in the day ('30's, 40's and 50's) the DC power packs couldn't run S scale or above. They just couldn't produce the power needed to move those locomotives. I know a few folks that have converted old S scale to DC now because the supplies can output the power needed. One other thing I have heard is that the S scalers have talked about is the noise level Apparently, AC for the larger scales can be an issue. I'm and old HO scale DC guy. I have 6 blocks on my layout. With its size, I did exactly what you talked about with running "buses and feeders". Each "area" of my layout (all 36'x8') is broken into smaller bits. Mainly so if I ever move again, the layout can be broken down and moved. That was build into the design. Each loop has its own bus and every so often, I dropped feeders down from the rails to meet the bus. I don't have power issues (thankfully).
That I have also since learned. I was told very early on in my research that almost all model trains were AC powered until the 50s. The other problem is how the acronyms "DC" and "DCC" have evolved multiple meanings and folks argue them. We have AC and DC in regards to electrical current but, in the UK and elsewhere folks discuss "DC vs DCC" when, technically they mean "analog vs digital." In the German/Mainland Europe model train world "DCC" and "MM/MFx" are the two primary chip programming languages/protocols (Think Windows vs Mac), even though DCC simply meant "Digital command control" and thus, MM/MFx is a "form" of DCC (not code-based, but MM/MFx is a form of digital command control, as opposed to analogue). I get folks arguing with me about digital and analog when I am talking electrical current flow, or argue DC/DCCC when I am talking digital stuff. Everybody has an interpretation- and I go to the base meanings.
Very good video. Glad I found it so I can understand it.now I do.
Glad it was helpful.
would it be possible to install a 3 rail pick-up on a 2 rail locomotive and rewire it to run it on 3 rail or does the entire motor needs to be changed?
Yes, it is done often. It just depends on the particular loco and how easily it can be done.
Please also remember not to refer to DC as direct control since in electrical terminology it is only used for direct current
This reminds me of the argument over watts and Volt Amps they are the same thing merely two different ways of expressing the same thing both are voltage x current = Total output
Marklin still uses VA in it's nomenclature today
Also buy having the 2 outside rails you have better grounding
The problem is DC in the USA means both "Direct Control" and "Direct Current." Causes a lot of confusion.
Actually Watts are not always the same as VA. In an AC circuit, the voltage and current can be out of phase, hence VA can be greater than Watts. Watts = VA x cos ø (power factor). It doesn't make much difference in most practical circuits but they are NOT the same.
My main reasons for choosing 2R (DCC) over 3R are:
* 2R track looks more realistic, without those unrealistic looking 3R centrenobs.
+ The 3R ski under the train doesn't look prototypical.
* Märklin is more or less a monopoly manufacfurer for 3R, thus they can charge more for their stuff with less concern about competition (just like Apple does).
* Lots of manufacturers make stock and tracks for 2R - making more options available, plus bigger competition makes them compete on price.
You addressed the latter reason in the end, but I don't think you addressed the first reason.
Any accessories connected to track power will drain from the power supply, regardless of AC or DC, but AC does not suffer voltage drop in the same way DC does. Thus your argument is very valid for analogue layouts. When it comes to digital layouts, this is not the case anymore, as digital 2R and digital 3R both utilize square wave high frequency AC to power the tracks, meaning there is no electrotechnical differences when it comes to voltage drops.
The biggest electrical / technical difference between digital 2R and digital 3R are the (lack of) need for reversing electronics when it comes to "reversing loops" on the layout. 3R doesn't require them because the centrenobs are always in the centre and the rails are electrically connected anyway, whereas a reversing loop will cause short circuits on a 2R layout without reversing electronics to prevent such shorts. Many layouts don't have reversing loops, and those that do have them, only has one or a few, thus the extra cost for reverse electronics is quite neglectable in the bigger picture.
If you want to run multiple trains independently of each other on an analogue 3R layout, this required electrical insulation and isolation as well, just as analogue 2R requires it. However, you are right that two trains on an analogue 3R layout can be made to run in opposite directions of each other without insulation and isolation, but then both trains start and stop together, as they always run on the same AC voltage level. Thus, to park an analogue 3R train on a siding, while running other trains on the main loop, 3R analogue layouts would require insulation and isolation of that siding just as much as if it were an analogue 2R layout.
Other than reversing loops, there are no more needs for insulation or isolation on a digital 2R layout than on a digital 3R layout. Many still opt to insulate and polarize electrically powered frogs (where the tracks cross each other) on 2R turnouts, but with insulated frogs this is not really necessary. It is however required if you use turnouts with electrically powered frogs on 2R layouts. An electrical frog also requires some switch to connect the frog to rail A or rail B, depending on the turnouts position (direct or diverting). This is usually handled by switches built into the solenoid drive or motor that controls the turnout.
Also, most modern powered models are made to work with both (analogue or digital) 2R operations and digital 3R operations. The motor is essentially the same on both systems now. You add or remove the 3R ski, and you swap the wheels, but the engine is the same. As a matter of fact, many multi protocol decoders will work just as well with both 2R DCC or one of the digital 3R protocols, so not even the decoder has to be changed (given it meets both specs (for the digital 2R and the digital 3R protocols used by the control station(s))). 3R ski and wheels are often the only things that needs to be changed to convert a modern locomotive between digital 2R and digital 3R operations.
Hybrid layouts with separated 2R tracks and 3R tracks exist. They can even be controlled by the same control station, such as the multi protocol Roco Z21. Then you can actually have two versions of the very same locomotive, with identical motors and decoders, where one locomotive runs on 2R and is controlled over DCC while the other locomotive which runs on 3R is controlled over Motorola or MFX protocol. Or even vice versa, if you really want to complicate stuff for yourself. The only difference between these locomotives would be how they pick up the two electrical connections:
* wheels + ski (3R), or
* wheel A + wheel B (2R)
Everything else could (and often would) be equal.
I am aware of what you bring up and point it out. I have always said precise realism is not important to me. As far as most models working on both, it is usually just a matter of chaing the wiring and adding or removing the shoe- the decoders and motors work with both systems. However, many manufacturers tell you certain models will not work well in analogue mode if they are made digital- so read the fine print. It is true, and I mention it in this video and following videos (remember, this is a series... not trying to cover it all in one episode), that all systems read the decoders. One of the problems is that many modelers use the terms "DC" to refer to analogue operation as well as two rail currents- which gets folks confused. Many modelers will talk about DC vs DCC when they really mean "analogue vs digital."
Remember, these videos were meant to simplify and explain basics for beginners, not give a master's level course in model trains and how they work. Basics. When we start worrying about "prototypical" or what looks exactly as it does in reality, (being a rivet counter) we all lose because such people scare others from the hobby. We have too many who want expect and want everyone to build completely realistic and fully prototyped layouts and are quite critical of those who don't. I am explaining what I am learning about my world of trains to friends and family, as well as beginners who, like me, could be overwhelmed by folks who want to overload the information. I have run into too many in my first couple of years. I prefer the 3 Rail system, regardless of the issues over how realistic it is for the ease of operation, because it does require much less wiring and work. DC/DCC has not caught up with AC/C-Track in that regard The skis/shoes are hidden well enough on eye-level views that it is not a big issue.
I prefer 3 Rail for the advantages, if you do not think those advantages are worth the system, then you build 2 rail. It is not an issue. There is a choice out there, and the hobby allows both.
As far as pricing- it is more expensive to make the track in 3 Rail, but Marklin is also caught in the situation where it has to be competitive with 2 rail, so, even though it dominates the 3R market, it does not go crazy with pricing because folks can either switch to 2Rail or plenty of companies, like Piko and Roco, can make 3R models cheaper. There is a reason Marklin is the largest Model train company in the world, whether via Trix, LGB or it's 3 Rail HO systems. So, again, folks have choices. Choices are good. I like mine; it suits what I am after. You know what you like, and that is great. Enjoy the hobby.
@@ModelTrainOutsider
I'm not trying to criticise your choice of 3R. I simply wanted to express why I choose what I've chosen, as a response to you explaining why you've chosen to stick to what you've "chosen". I also addressed some statements I considered to be wrong or too biased. Basically to give some balance.
I also wanted to point out that I think you give 2R and analogue DC an unfair bad reputation, talking about dead spots (as if the train suddenly gets to a spot with no power), insulation, isolation and excessive cabling. It's almost as if you have a need to defend your choice of 3R, or you relay what others with such needs have communicated (as it seems from this video that you have no personal experience with 2R). This impression is amplified because it seems to be that your choice of the 3R system was more based on a coincidence than an actual choice, as you say you didn't know about 2R and the options when you started out. Afterwards you've chosen to stick to that "choice", and that's perfectly fine.
I also consider there to be some very important differences between realism and rivet counting. Purple, pink or red pine trees are unrealistic. The same trees as green are more realistic. Rivet counting is more like getting hung up on the number of branches, the distances between them, and so forth. That's a totally different genre in my book. Maybe not to you. In no way do I consider my reply to be even in the same ballpark as rivet counting. Again, you may think differently. If you choose to have pink pine trees on your layout, I don't care. Your layout, your realm. You are King and Emporor in your realm, and can do whatever you desire. However, if you express why you think one is better than the other, or why you've made your choices, you're also inviting others to make similar expressions. Which is what I did.
DC operation is correctly interpreted as analogue 2R. It has nothing to do with 3R, analogue or not.
DCC operation is correctly interpreted as digital operation, but can be used on both 2R and 3R. However, digital 3R is more commonly run with MFX, or previously the Motorola protocol.
AC operation is similarly used to refer to analogue 3R.
The confusion arises when DC is used to describe 2R and AC is used to describe 3R, regardless of digital or analogue operation. DC doesn't make sense for digital 2R operation. DCC is more accurate, but not 100% as I've mentioned.
If you wanted to address this confusion of these labels / expressions / terms, then calling the episode "AC and DC tracks" is basically you doing exactly what you in your reply criticise others of doing.
My initial reply was intended to give some balance to your video, including to correct some technical details about 2R operation that you seemed inexperienced with. When saying 2R requires lots of insulation and isolation (including for a simple siding) whereas 3R does not, you're basically comparing analogue 2R multi-train operations with digital 3R multi-train operations. That's neither fair nor balanced, which is why I addressed that, and similar subjects.
To me, I got the impression that in your eager to keep the video "simple and basic", you described 2R as being more complicated and less functional than it really is.
2R doesn't REQUIRE lots of more cabling than 3R does, with reversing loops being the only actual exception to this. Reversing loops require something reversing the electricity - either an extra device that can swap track polarity automatically within "milliseconds", or a manual switch to do the same.
The voltage drops on a layout has to do with two physical properties.
1) The crossection of whatever is transporting the current. For model railroading, this basically means the rails.
2) Poor connectivity in joints. For model railroading, this basically means the joints between individual tracks / track sections.
For a given used amount of current, this voltage drop will be the same, whether we're talking about AC or DC operation. However, 3R tracks has an extra conductor (the third rail), thus has a wider total crossection than 2R tracks. This reduces voltage drops slightly, but hardly recognisable on an average layout where the locomotive rarely will be more than 10 metres from the feeder wires.
Put shortly, a 2R DCC layout operating on a single 3 ampere booster, doesn't NEED lots of extra wiring. With insulfrog turnouts, your turnouts doesn't need wiring. The only thing NEEDING extra wiring (as mentioned) is reversing loops. If your layout doesn't have reversing loops, there is really no difference between 2R and 3R in simplicity, if that's what you're going for.
However, because track joints and fishplates can be a source of bad connectivity over time, they will increase the voltage drop on the layout, as their resistance increases. Thus it is often considered a good practice to have a wide gauge bus wire which has a bigger crossection than the tracks, and at various places connect feeder wires between the bus wire and the tracks. This will be beneficial for both 2R and 3R operations (analogue as well as digital), but is also optional for both track types (up to a certain sized layout). The bigger crossection of 3R tracks means a 3R layout can be somewhat bigger than a 2R layout before this becomes an issue, but for any beginner this isn't something you need to consider.
It's a common misconception to think that DC itself is the source of higher voltage drop, and think that's the reason the electrical grid is AC based. What causes the voltage drop is actually the amount of current that goes through a cable, and the reason for the electricity grid to be AC is that you can use transformers to increase the voltage, and thus decrease the amperage going through the cables. DC cannot be transformed to high voltage in a similar fashion.
This is not a subject in model railroading. They typicalky operate somewhere between 12 and 18 volt, regardless of system or rail architecture. Any given locomotive running at full speed needs the same amount of power, regardless of the protocol communicating with the decoder, and regardless of the track architecture. Thus it's basically using the same amount of current, given the voltage is the same in either system being compared.
How popular is AC in USA?
In HO, there's a sizable, but spread out, community. I think the NMRA said they have over 150,000 members who are HO 3-Rail. As most modelers are not NMRA, I would assume there's easily more than 500,000, and probably a lot more. In O-scale, 3-Rail dominates.
Lol......these vids were unique....
Well, my inside joke characters made it easier to be on cam at the time.
So is there a way to use an ac train on dc
No, only if you convert it to DC by re-wiring the motor and pick-ups.
wish i had the brain capacity to actually look into stuff before buying stuff.
I now have a shit load of DC model trains, with the right kind of track.
But i also have 2 Marklin locs which run on AC, and require a third rail in the middle.
I have noticed that the Marklin does run if i supply dc to the pickups, but i guess that wont last for ever. I guess i will destroy it very fast>
Anyway, they are locomotives. I do not think they will be worthless. And so i think i could just as well resell em.
It happens to many!
btw, i bought a very nice Märklin h0 3093 steam loc....
Only paid 45 euro for it.
Meanwhile i have a few Fleischmann locs that i am bidding for on catawiki, and they already are around 100 euro.
Euro is roughly the same as dollar.
Roughly.
Anyways, i think i was lucky with the Märklin, or more people wanna get into DC stuff.
When the Märklin loc i bought first arrived, i was wondering: what the heck is this middle rail doing underneath it.
Tried to power it, no go.
On DC track.
So i then tried to power the wheel and the middle rail, and it does work.
But, i have no clue if i am actually damaging the engine or not by putting DC current on it.
I remember when i was 5 years of age, maybe 6. We had a gigantic lay out, mountains, houses, lights, moving cars.
But i was stupid, still am, and destroyed the locs one by one.
I never understood the value.
It broke my father's heart, or so i was told by him later in life.
And to this day i could cry about it.
But if you leave a kid alone with such a toy and you have not raised him the right way, or the kid is just stupid (like i am, but also perhaps a bit of the raising part that did not work out), they will explore and destroy.
But it did make sure i was hooked to trains for ever.
I just never had the chance to actually build something. No money, no space, etc.
And now, 36 years later, i saw the light. I have the room. I got a bit of money to waste..... not too much but at least to start it the right way.
And then mr Stupid walks in again and decides:
"Ah, i wanna start this hobby. Let me buy the nice scale, H0. Like we had at home. Wauw, that looks like a nice steam locomotive. Märklin, i heard about them, they are great. I gotta have it. YES, i won the bidding.....
Now, bit of track, wait, another nice looking Locomotive. Fleischmann, i heard about them as well.... they are great. I gotta have it. YES, i won the bidding.
Wait, Roco, Lima, they look nice enough, bit cheaper. Gotta have em all. Bit more track as well..."
Packages arrive.
Let me lay out some track and test.
Nice, Roco works, Lima works, what the heck is wrong with you Märklin???? You look so damn pretty and you aint running? Are you KAPUTT? "
And then i thought: Let me check youtube a bit.
And you were the first video that popped up after i entered some search terms.
I know, it is an old video. But still very helpful for dummies like me.
But man, i really should do it the other way around.
When will i ever learn"?
Probably never.
PS, sorry for being a troll, and writing books. I am just that kind of person. If it is TL, then DR.
sorry for the books i wrote.
But my main question in all of the stuff is basically this: Would it damage a Märklin engine if it is fed DC power?
I somehow do have a brain to convert the track i have now to have a middle rail. Might not look as nice as factory build, but it would function.
But can i just feed it DC?
Or does i need another Transformer to put AC on it?
@@ModelTrainOutsider
@bertjesklotepino it will not run. Damage? It will short out your system, the same as putting Märklin rolling stock on DC track. DC rolling stock has insulated wheels/axles. Märklin do not. Putting a Märklin piece of rolling stock on 2-rail track is like laying a piece of metal across the rails- instant ZZZZTTT.
Thank you for making me feel even more stupid than i already knew i was.
I do not mean this the wrong way sir, obviously.
I am very happy that you just lid up a candle in my head.
As Johnny Cash once sang in an old Columbo episode: I saw the light.
I should have been able to figure that out myself.
Thank you for saving me. And this wonderful looking Märklin engine.
Anyways, the very first thing i am gonna do is check youtube and your channel.And others. And buy a book explaining it a bit more in detail.
Should have done that before starting this "new" hobby.@@ModelTrainOutsider
ps: i am dutch, excuse the errors in spelling and grammar. And thank you for the replies.
Did not expect that to happen on a video that is 5 years old.
Thank you for this video :)
Glad you found something of use! 👍
Why is dc converter into ac power of ho train
You would have to ask the manufacturers.
I can't the where sell by people at train show
Well explained 🙏👍
Thank you very much!
Hey budro. Hoping you can help.. you just might be the guy that could help me.. I want to hang a shelf around my pub at the house and it's about a 14 x 16 room. I have 2 trains but want to run one track and probably just one of the trains at a time.. my older train is from the 80s. Lionel James Gamg. The original track was the metal 3 rail and the transformer has both ac and dc posts but the train engine is supposed to have a dc motor I'm told? The newer train is a lionel western telegraph with the hand held remote and is Ac.. I've bought some EZ 3 rail track which both trains should run on. I've been told I will burn up my older train if I try to run it on ac? If that's true, is there a way to connect up the power for both but throw a switch to change the power to dc when running the older train? Ever heard of doing this? Would like to be able to talk to somebody.. just clueless what to do. Jim
Hi Jim, you can NOT run the old DC train on the 3 rail, you will fry it. And, you can not make a track work AC and DC together. Some guys do have AC and DC mixed layouts, but the loops are isolated and trains do not cross. The best option, if you want 3 rail/AC is to get the old DC converted to AC. It is not difficult and there are plenty of how-to videos, you just need to get the right wheels and the ski... or send it to a shop and they will convert it- more expensive but guaranteed. I have never converted a train myself. Just as an aside, the company Brawa introduced cars designed to work both AC and DC... it failed, and they quit after 2 years.
@@ModelTrainOutsider thanks buddy. Found vids on Benz Trainz channel. The red lionel 8005 general lion chief he converted is my exact train. He installed a full wave bridge rectifier. Think I got my answer.. thanks so much though.. stay calm and train on.. jim
You can drive 2 R AC, and 3R DC.
Only if you alter the cars and bogeys.