DC Current: How (And Why) To Run Lionel Trains On DC Instead of AC
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- Опубликовано: 24 фев 2023
- Episode 135: Yes, you CAN run traditional Lionel and Marx trains with DC current! And doing so will often improve the performance of these classic trains with quieter and smoother running and better low-speed operation.
In some cases, you can use a cheap HO scale power pack, or buy a Lionel AC to DC converter box. I prefer to make my own, and I show you how in this video.
So all aboard for this adventure in DC power for your Lionel trains!
Components used in this video:
Creality Ender 3 3D Printer: amzn.to/3KBO19P
3D Printer Enclosure: amzn.to/3KJMAGe
Full Wave Bridge Rectifier (5 Pieces): amzn.to/3YYjyqY
Heavy Duty DPDT Toggles (3 Pieces): amzn.to/3Sss9Q4
STL File for Enclosure Box [Free Download]: www.thingiverse.com/thing:587...
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Back in 1990 I was given a starter set. And to my surprise it is a DC unit. I avoided using the locomotive but used the cars with my traditional AC locomotive 2026. Well the 2026 was out for repairs so I tried the DC Locomotive. I was surprised it would pull 10 cars I don't think many AC starter locomotives would do that. And I did notice the low speed capability. So I was really interested in this video. thanks
You're welcome!! I did this project so I could run the Williams engine in the video. It had been in a box since the 1990s.
This is a great video to watch. Thanks for the tips. Just got back in to o-27 scale, when my cousin brought me a trunk full of ho and o-scale. Sure enjoy watching your videos. Thanks again!!!
Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for the information, I have a modern O scale LMS 'Jinty' tank loco from Darstaed, even though it uses the same 3 rail track as my vintage trains, she however requires DC power to operate. It's good to know that I won't have to make too many changes to the circuit to run both vintage and more modern DC stuff on my layout.
Thanks for this tutorial! I have know for years that American Flyer had Universal Motors and have actually made the dc circuits for my AF. Still learning at age 65!
Happy to help!
I've got an early 1990's Lionel Southern 4-6-2 locomotive. It has an electronic reversing unit and the instructions say it will run on AC or DC. It has whistle tender with tether. The instructions say to unplug the wire to the tender if you run it on DC.
Yes. Otherwise the whistle will sound continuously on DC power. Obviously, Lionel anticipated your engine running on DC so the reverse unit should handle DC just fine.
Nice video. Very interesting, thanks 😀
Thanks for watching!!
I primarily have prewar tinplate trains, O gauge and standard gauge, but have gotten off into the weeds with early American 2" gauge and European 1 gauge trains. I use a DC Lab Power Supply unit for those and they run cool and quiet and amazingly smooth. Hooking this up to my prewar Lionel and postwar Lionel locos, I found the same thing. The postwar motors, regardless of which kind they are, run extremely cool and notably smoother on DC rather than AC. I've got a dozen big Lionel Trainmaster transformers, I wish I'd known about the DC Lab Power Supply gadgets earlier, they are far more efficient at running the trains than any AC transformer.
Thanks for sharing!
Good video, thanks for the inspiration of adding a rectifier to a BPRC board and on board battery of a few of my old school PullMor locomotives. Giving these locos new life on a dead rail layout operation. 🙂👍
Thanks! Sounds cool!
Thanks for all the great videos and 3d prints! I always enjoy seeing the latest one.
This video in particular, caught my eye. I have been running my post-war Lionel trains on DC only for three years now. I moved out of the USA for work and had to deal with the 120/240v 60/50hz issue. Luckily, I saw a video by Benz Trainz using a 12v battery and pwm speed controller. It was an easy solution that Lionel engineered into their design so many years ago.
Thank you for opening up more information about this topic. There are a lot of folks who still do believe all Lionel is AC only.
Best of luck to you. Keep the great content coming.
Cheers
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comments!!!
Fantastic information Mike.! 👍🏻
Thank You.! 😊
Thank you, and thanks for watching!
Thanks for that very interesting tutorial!
And for a non-electrician you did MORE than just fine!
Thanks. I know just enough about electricity to get myself in trouble! ;-)
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Yeah, kind of like me and computers! I'm always afraid I'll push the wrong button on this thing and blow up the East Coast!
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and you just to happened to make a great video on it! I'm a little late in the layout building process to convert unfortunately. I'll keep it in mind for my next layout
Happy to help!
I run all my 027 Lionel engines on DC. I had always thought they were AC only, but, in fact, they do operate better on DC than AC, especially filtered DC without any AC ripple. So now I can share controllers with my HO scale trains. W Rusty Lane K9POW in eastern Tennessee
Great! Thanks for verifying the concept!
Another great video, thank you Mike! My first Lionel trains were D.C. from the 1980s.
They had a bad reputation at that time. But mine worked great!
Today, I run a mix of Prewar, Postwar & MPC era O27 trains. None of them have whistle or horn.
All of them run quieter and I believe, better on Direct Current. I also have some of the
Lionel D.C. trains from the MPC era and feel they were superior to the A.C. versions.
I do use both A.C. and D.C. but not because I am a purist. Just using whatever I have on hand. I love how easy it is to control direction with D.C. only without the E-unit. Just flip a switch on the power pack and you've changed directions!
Absolutely!
Excellent...I may do this!
Happy to help!
Great video Mike. It was very interesting to see and informative. American Flyer at one point actually had a DC set up for a short period back in 1948-1952. They used a regular AC powered transformer like a #88 “Safety First” Transformer - 100 Watts, and connected with it a #15 “Safety First” Directronic Rectifier to convert A/C power, to DC power to run their trains. I actually have these items, and it’s a very interesting set up. The rectifier is huge, but it still works. It’s a amazing how far technology has come to minimize the size of the rectifier.
You also mentioned about not using a modern CW80 transformer. Is that because it puts out a Chopped sine wave compared to Postwar transformer that puts out a Smooth sine wave?
Yes, it's because of the pulse. I guess if you smoothed it with a capacitor it would be okay, but that was more than I wanted to do with this project.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Yes I agree. It would get pretty involved and probably send folks over the edge into a transformer tizzy with the electrical technicalities. LOL However, with modern command control locomotives, you want that chopped sine wave in order to charge up the capacitors inside the locomotives in order to get the most performance out of the engines like smoke output and electro couplers. That’s for another video all in is own. I love your videos because you stay focused on the tried and true conventional locomotives that older people like myself still enjoy, and can relate to the trains and accessories you showcase on your videos. Great job!
The huge train layout that was operating at The Mall of America in Bloomington Minnesota for one year, the first year for the mall converted all engines to run on DC. They discovered that their electric bill dropped by 50%. Eliot Fineman who owned that business passed away in the fall of 2022.
Neat information!
I would add a large cap to smoothen out the rippled DC from the rectifier.
Now, thats cool. Thank you........
You're welcome!
I have a lot of MPC and newer Lionel, many of them with DC can motors. About 10 years ago I drew a few diagrams of circuits using DPDT switches bypassing the circuit boards so they can run on DC power and it would be easier to run multiple units. It would be a bit more complicated if that bypass system still ran smoke, but for my lungs I don’t run smoke. Horns would have to be bypassed by that circuit.
Wow man thank you! I'm glad I don't need to modify my locos to do this! I have 3 layouts in the same room and the O scale always drove me absolutely bezerk with the bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 😂
Happy to help!
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks I am a tiktok creator as well D&N Railworks, I was absolutely thrilled to test this and share it with my viewers! Thanks again!
Another great Lionel video! I noticed that the link to the thingiverse STL file for the box seems to be broken with a 404 error. Thought you might want to know. Thanks for these great videos
Thanks. Thingiverse has become very unreliable.
Another great video, thank you Mike! I have the 6-11701 Lionel Rail Blazer set from 1987 and the steam locomotive operates on DC. I'd like to convert this to run on AC because the locomotive has semimetal value to me. Ideally, I'd like it to have Forward-Neutral-Reverse operation (it has F-R presently). Would you kindly consider a video on this topic? Thanks in advance for your consideration.
For this project you'll need to find an electronic reverse unit. Either an old Lionel or from an aftermarket manufacturer will do. When I last checked, they will run you $30-$50.
Thanks for the video Mike. I have a bare bones Lionel ALCO A unit from 1969 that runs on AC and growls. Switching to DC shouldn't be a big problem. However, how will this effect the operation of my turnouts? I rewired them to run off my AC transformer and not track power (from one of your previous videos). Will I need to continue using a AC transformer for them? THANKS AGAIN
It should have no impact whatsoever on your turnouts.
Love your videos, I had assumed 3d printers were super expensive, but I see the one you linked is very reasonable, have you been happy with it? Have you done a video on using 3d printers? Thanks, Craig
I love my Ender 3. What I really like is that it's open source so you can upgrade easily when and if you like. So far, I've added an all-metal hot end so I can print with more advanced materials (about $35) and I am about to upgrade the motherboard from 8 bit to 32 (about $40). My only wishes are that it could do finer details like a resin printer and I wish the print bed was bigger so I could make O scale rolling stock in a single piece. All3dp.com has many good tutorials and reviews for beginners. While I use my printer for a lot of projects, I would hardly call myself an expert. Most of the things I print are simple household items and a few odds and ends for the layout. I'm not yet into fine scale modeling with my printer.
Thanks so much for your reply!
I run all my Lionel on DC, just have to unhook the E-unit as the controller controls the direction. Also if you have a whistling tender you'll have to unhook it or it will blow all the time. Cheers from eastern TN
Incorrect. A traditional universal motor still requires the E unit for direction control unless you electrically modify the motor. See the video for details.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Well, then, guess I'll hook the E-unit back up and see what happens. Cheers - TN
I have 3 postwar alco diesels, they all run beautiful in reverse and very sluggish forward.
Maintenance was performed and no help.
Do you think if I ran them using DC power that they would improve forward performance?
When ALCOs and NW2s run better one way than the other there is usually an issue with the armature bearing. The motor spins better in one direction.
I have a Lionel Christmas trolley from 1995 and it came with a little transformer that has ac and dc power. The dc side says track and the ac side says accessories. There was a sticker over the ac side that said something about running the locomotive on the ac side might damage it. Before I knew anything about the Lionel ac vs dc power differences, I ran the trolley on a different Lionel transformer that is ac, it actually runs better on it, then it does with the little one that came with it. Could I possibly damage this trolley from running it on ac power? Also this trolley seems to run better at low speeds on ac power. Do you have any idea why that would be?
On your transformer, the AC is constant voltage for accessories. It must have a rectifier in it or it wouldn't run at all on AC. The only thing that makes sense is that you have a basic diode rectifier instead of a full wave. On AC power, only half of the wave gets to the motor in this case, which does provide decent low speed performance but it CAN cause a DC motor to overheat with prolonged use.
Hello, I recently purchased an Atlas Trainman O scale 2 rail DC locomotive will my MRC DC transformer I've been using for HO locos work without damaging either the loco and or transformer. Thanks
In order to answer, you need to know the maximum power draw (amps) of the locomotive and the maximum power output of the transformer. If the transformer output is greater than the maximum draw, it should work. However, an HO transformer will generally put out fewer volts than one made for O scale. Also are you certain that the locomotive runs on "straight" DC? Is there a circuit board involved?
Yet another good idea. Makes me think....
Would the TCA send Storm Troopers to my house, if I tried converting some non-valuable Lionel locks to DCC!?!?!? 😵😲
I've got a 10 amp, NCE DCC system that could work... And provide all the bells and whistles
*** Locos ***
Do you still get the AC buzz coming from the transformer since it is still putting out AC to the rectifier?
Nothing changes for the transformer. If it buzzed before, it will still buzz.
How do you hook up the wires from the DC transformer tp which of the 3 rails??? Thanks
Honestly, it doesn't matter.
Would a post-war ZW transformer work with a DC converter?
Yes.
I grew up with the hum of ac trains. Also the hum lets you know if a switch solenoid Is sticking on. But I may experiment and see how my locos do on Dc. I like to use signals with automatic stopping blocks,so that required the e unit to be turned off. DC would let me retain control of direction. And it would let me do the same with Marx trains that don’t have a lockout lever.
" DC would let me retain control of direction" Not exactly. Changing polarity on a standard AC Universal motor does nothing to the direction(otherwise the direction would change every time you activated the whistle). In order to have directional control with DC you either need to retain the E unit for control, or modify the motor with a rectifier to establish a polarity through the motor.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks yes that’s what I was thinking, by pass e unit and have a bridge rectifier on one motor winding. I’ll have to experiment
ruclips.net/video/iY2M-jawP0c/видео.htmlsi=MiADfff_B-__aVnu
I have an old starter lionel Texas Special that has no reverse unit, horn, anything really. I am considering using it as a puller for a Christmas train set up for my grandchildren. I have a dc transformer from a HO layout I had years ago. could I put A + B to run the tree train od DC. Wife is not a fan of the AC buzz all day!
The Lionel Pullmor Motor likely draws more current than your HO transformer can supply. You'd be better off with a Lionel transformer and a rectifier.
Ben willlionel ctclockons work on all tubular track i know yo did a tutorial on the Lionel ctc lockons
Do you think you could use this set up (less the switch?) With blue rail circuit board.
I've thought about it, but I'm concerned about the maximum amp load for the BlueRail board.
They once advertised that a "high amp" board would be available "soon", but that was more than a decade ago!
I did like the video, however, I think I will stick with AC because I have several engines with electronics and because I am sort of afraid of the magnetization thing. Thanks for sharing.
That's fine. I will still run on AC most of the time. I have a few engines that run much better on DC though. Thanks for watching!
Recently got a Lionel 2026 off ebay. Runs great, especially on DC. Using a variable bench supply, 0-30VDC, up to 10 amps. The 2026 runs great at slow speed, around 6.5 VDC, drawing 1.6-2.0 amps. The tender that came with the engine does not have the whistle module. The engine does have a smoke unit, but it's only working on AC power. It is still the original design for smoke pellets, waiting for the parts to convert to liquid. Guessing the amp draw of the smoker is lower on DC, so it doesn't get hot enough to smoke. Anyone have experience with getting smoke units to work on DC?
You're probably correct about the current draw being in insufficient for smoke. Perhaps using a lower valued resistor in the smoke unit would improve performance?
I don't have a 3d printer or have access to one so i'll have to build a box for my ac/dc converter circuit .Can you give me the dimensions of the box you are using to house your rectifier and switch.
www.tinkercad.com/things/1gRCFJnyZq6-dpdt-selector-box?sharecode=elqIvYIJ1r4D3jMIQcwI-oRv_0CLjDM8vlZjBOkEPU4
Where can I find schematics for my locomotives?
For Lionel, from 1945 on the company provided such information to their Authorized Service Station network - first as paper copies, later as pdf. Most of the Postwar documents were compiled in Greensburg Guide To Repairing Lionel Trains, and the K-LINE Complete Service Manual for Lionel trains. Both are out of print. However, a Google search may sometimes yield the document you are looking for. Until recently, Lionel had all documents for 1970-1986 posted online, but they have removed this from their web page for some reason. Google is the only option I know for these now. For modern Lionel, check the web page. Some documents are there. I wish there was a better answer!
Oh! The Greenburg guide is back in print as a paperback! (Affiliate Link): amzn.to/43zhqHY
I’m split I want to run my trains at slow speeds but at the same time I want my postwar trains to have horns and bells
You could use Bluetooth for your horns and bells. ruclips.net/video/SwvV_-1AjzU/видео.html
It's funny isn't it: all early trains were all dc and all 2 rail. It wasn't until the 1890's when 3 rail started up, and the US of course stuck with 2 rail for a lot longer before changing over to the user friendly 3 rail standard.
DC was still of course the norm, it was only the advent of household ac supply that operation on ac became the norm.
It was really the wartime development of superior anisotropic magnets that dc really became the standard.
A bit of an unknown benefit of AC operation is that due to the pulsation way it operates, if using more than one motor at one time they will operate perfectly in phase with each other.
Bummer and why I don't run dc is just the volts and amps. An old Ives or lionel super motor takes about 8 to 10 volts just to start it humming. Even big power mrc dc controllers with a too high for H0 16v max the old Ives is just cruising but nothing to spare and no wagons behind.
Just to add: the first tt system used a very sophisticated form of multi control. It had the overhead catenary as the power feed, but it used locos with different ac phases with controllers with different phases. E.g I'm going to use this loco and controller and set them to 50hz, and this loco and controller to 35hz: independent control on the same track! It was German though so had to be complicated lol
"It was German so it had to be complicated." LOL!!! :-)
I must be missing something. Why the switch to reverse polarity to the track when the engine has an “E” unit. Should not the “E” unit reverse the engine’s direction. I fail to understand the need to reverse polarity of the DC on the track unless the engine is without an “E” unit, wired direct. Also wiring a switch to power the track DC or AC to go from one to the other is not illustrated. Very nice presentation and diagrams. Thank you
The polarity switch is strictly for DC motors. It makes no difference on AC. As for switching back and forth, run the power feeds from your AC only source to one side of a DPDT, the rectified DC source to the other side, then connect the two center contacts to the track. Or you can physically switch the output wires from one transformer to the other.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks That clears it up nicely. Since I have no DC motors nor sounds and a ZW transformer all I have to do is switch back and forth between AC and DC. Diesels w/no horns on DC and locomotives w/whistles on AC. THANK YOU
You kind of lost me there at the six minute mark. Lionchief engines are designed to run on either an AC transformer or the DC power pack that comes with the starter sets. Current from the track goes to a bridge rectifier on the circuit board which then powers the electronics of the engine. You cannot run the electronics on AC with out converting it to DC first so why do you say you shouldn't run modern engines on DC?
As I mentioned, it works in theory, and it MAY work in practice depending on your particular components. However, depending on the type and current rating of rectifier, sustained exposure to DC COULD cause the rectifier and/or particular resistors or capacitors in the board to fail. It MIGHT work, but I'm not going to tell people it's perfectly fine to run RailSounds or ProtoSound or TMCC or DCS or LionChief on DC without knowing the specs of a particular board. Like I said, better safe than sorry.
If it can run on DC, can it run on 2 rail track?
2 rail track would require several modifications. First, since both outside rails of 3 rail track are electrically identical, none of the train wheels are insulated. This would create an immediate short circuit on 2 rail track. Then the locomotive would have to be rewired to pick up power separately from each rail and not from the center rail pickups. It is far easier to convert a 2 rail item to 3 rail than the other way around.
Then there's the issue of the deep 3 rail flanges....
There is no correlation between the current type and the number of rails. American Flyer made both AC and DC trains for 2 rail. Lionel (and others) made both AC and DC trains for 3 rail.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks One thing I always loved about the 2 rail American Flyers was their "Choo-Choo" sound! No electronics, no circuit boards, no bean cans! Just a great design!
@@crossbow1203 I intend to research that, and maybe sell some to be put in other locomotives.
I don't know where people get the idea that you can't use dc power on 3 rail systems as Hornby dublo was 3 rail dc from it's start until it went 2 rail in the late 50s
I guess people just assume that because most Lionel is 3 rail and most Lionel is AC that must be the connection.
I could also just push them by hand 😂
if you have a horn or whistle you will be screwed
I discuss that in the video. Thanks for watching!
Electrical fact you can put DC on a AC motor but you can not run a DC motor on AC instant cooking
That's covered in the video.
rather not magnetize my e unit...
If that should happen, a little running on AC will demagnetize it.
looks like you copied BENZ TRAINZ he did an entire series on running marx and lionel on DC...
Great minds think alike! Actually, it's a very old idea. I know of folks who ran their Lionel trains on DC power from radio batteries in the 1950s.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks If I remember correctly, in 1902, Lionel sold no transformers. The trains were powered by the massive batteries.