Hey man, I know this was posted 4 years ago, but my son and I have been building a 69 mustang, with a 289 out of a 65. I haven't been able to get the damn distributor dialed in until your video. Every other video left me with more questions than answers. Found your video last night, and our project started for the first time last night. Thanks man!
Converted my 1971 Mustang Coupe from a 2 barrel intake to a 4 barrel and forgot to set the timing to TDC before removing things. Was backfiring and sputtering until my brother and I found this video, got it running properly in 30 minutes thanks to you! AWESOME!
Instead of fiddling around trying to get it to drop in the oil pump shaft just turn the crank until it drops down then turn the crank back to 10 degrees, so much easier.
Omg!!!! Very simple and to the point. A co worker actually sent me this video knowing that I was having trouble starting my car. This is exactly what I needed. Thank you a million.
Thanks for the refresher course, I remembered the steps, But forgot the position on the rotor, You made it straight to the point without all the selling products the way I like it, Really simple.
I was going to say man you should be a professor of car engines because you explain so well and clearly, but then you said in class and I was like ok, makes perfect sense. He is a teacher after all.
Yes, good video.👍👍 Manually set the crank and then tune the cap right too it with the pen light on Coil negative to battery positive . 5:55 Tap sliping the oil pump around actually works too. You just got to remember to return to your mark. I did a ford 460 today the exact same way Exquisite video knowledge for all ol'fords, good job
Great video! 4:15 instead of playing with it, just bump the starter once and it'll drop right down. Just read that tip in my '66 service manual and it worked perfect!
Doing that will also move the timing off 10° before TDC. You'll notice in the video after he gets it on the compression stroke and sets it at the 10° mark, the engine doesn't rotate again until they start it. The oil pump is also driven off the distributor, so bumping the engine doesn't make the oil shaft spin, but instead the cam gear rotates. The idea he shows in the video is to force the oil pump to rotate to match the rest of the engine, not vice-versa.
Thanks so much for showing how you had to fiddle with it to get it to seat completely. I had a hard time getting mine to seat, and now I understand why.
Thanks a bunch for making this video!! As a mechanically inclined guy with little Automotive experience this was perfect!! And I didn’t need a set of fancy tools. :)
Thanks. My brother changed some stuff on my car due to no start condition turned out to be a fusable link wire. He changed everything cause he was helping. So your video helped me a lot. I'm a painter not a mechanic lol.
You prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know of a trick to log back into an instagram account..? I stupidly forgot the password. I love any help you can offer me!
@Ernest Solomon i really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and Im trying it out now. I see it takes a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Thanks for this. I don't work on Fords. I'm a GM man. Working on a 289 that someone screwed up putting the dist in. Vacuum advance is hitting the thermostat housing and it needs to go even more to time it.
Great Video have a 64 Mustang over in the UK and wanted to check the timing as it developed a misfire hard to start and popping through the carb. Yet to try it but great detailed video 👍🏼
I see what he's trying to do it's a good way of finding top TC of the compression stroke if you go past the timing mark make sure you turn it back a little bit farther and then turn it back to where you want the timing to be set which 10° is pretty good then when you put the distributor in and the rotor don't line up it's no big deal just estimate how much farther the rotors going to turn turn it back to the desired amount and all you do is rotate the engine backwards until the distributor falls into place then rotate it back to 10° and see if her roller lines up to where it should be normally the rotor doesn't go straight to the rear but a little bit to your right which is the left side of the engine then all you have to do watch your points turn the distributor until the points just start to open and you're right on top and where you want the timing mark to be I've done many engines many and sometimes I don't even have to move distributor when I put the timing light on it. PS I learned a lot of tricks from working on VW just valves set and timing..
Getting recommendations for time in the same engine without a vacuum advance. It’s locked out. We have it turned that way and I wanted to know if I can get all out of it get.
Thanks. Not sure just how to use every bit of everything you did, but I have done everything except put a light to it which seems key. My 65 289 is a beast but won't stay running. I will try what I can remember.
So where do I set my marks if there is no numbers of degree? It says TDC and then slashes after but no numbers? Love the video extremely informative but just a little stuck with this. Thanks for your time.
Definitely an early 289 before the government regulated PCV system. Note the breather tube sticking up from the timing cover. It stands for independence! Love it!
It's interesting that if you Google 289 firing order you can find images that show the no.1 position in 3 or 4 different places but the firing order is always the same. In my case l tried putting the number one lead at the 12 o'clock position and the engine wouldn't start and back fired through the carb. After some investigation l discovered the the no. 1 position was actually at the 3 o'clock position relative to the video here. Different distributors maybe?
Everything is good and enjoyable! I have never interacted with such old people - V8, but I have marks on the crankshaft pulley in a different place. motor 1966
Please help! My uncle and I put a 302 in my 66 mustang. Everything was top dead center, distributer on 1 (mine ignition 1 doesn't point straight back like yours more back right) never did the 10 or 12 degree thing or the light test/timing gun. It starts, needs a new carb, and has a misfire. Do I have to redue the timing? The distributor? If my timing is off would that cause my car to shake when trying to accelerate? Car shakes really bad when going 35 or is that do to the carb/possible misfire? Thank you!!!!!
Mark, Great video. I have a question. I went through your process on my 70 Boss 302 with a dual point distributor. The light on my test light was dimly lite all the time and when the points opened I got a bright light on the test light. I am wondering why I have a constant dim light all the time? Does it have something to do with the dual points? Thanks
shelbygt350r I have a 70 Boss 302 in my F-150. I don’t think my distributer has dual points though. The timing is terrible right now, and I’m hoping this video helps. I don’t know if I have any numbers or pointer though. We’ll find out today!
I'm confused I was told to do the thumb trick, set balancer on "0" and line up rotor to plug #1. So you set balancer to desired degree and not "0". I guess I will try this..its for a 302 stroked 331
This last time I put my distributor in, the rotary is facing the front, it usually faced the direction of the master cylinder. My question is, should it. Cause now my car is over heating and that's the only difference I can think of.
Outstanding! thanks you I didn't know about the the cylinder numbers stamped. Question could the crank shaft be moved to get the distributor to drop in vice stabbing it over and over? Again thanks a lot learn something new!
At the time of this recording. We had this trainer set up so one button turned on the ignition and the second button engaged the starter. We have since moved to a switch with a key. Similar to a rotary switch.
Pretty nice to bring back stuff I learned in automotive school. I know this distributor had points. With the turning of the unit to get the light off, on a point less distributor do that light matter?
Oh wow this is amazing. Would this timing procedure apply to a 1973 302? My engine is shaking like crazy during idle, back fires, and dies as soon as its placed in gear.
Excellent explanation. Thank you! One question: how tie my distributor should be? I got a Ford F-100 1972 and the distributor is a little bit loose. Btw, it doesn't start. I guess because it is not timed, maybe? Thanks for your help.
Hey Mark, I have a 351 windsor efi and timing is throwing me off! When I get #1 on compression my timing mark is is 10 degrees atdc #1 on the dizzy is lined up perfect! But when I check this thing with a timing light its 16 to 20 atdc! The more I advance toward 10 btdc it starts to idle way to hi and my headers start to glow red hot quick after start up! When I have it set to where the motor seems happy header elbows dont get as hot but still getting red at at collection of tubes close to the shortie flange were it hooks up to exhaust especially when I raise the RPMs tubes will heat back up! Im lost!
hopefully this finds you, i have followed this video multiple times. we have a 68 Mustang 289. when doing the test light method i wasn't able to get the light to shut off, only slightly dimmer. i set the point gap correctly. in fact the point is new.. any help would be great
When you did it did you turn the engine slowly until that rub block on the points was exactly on one of those corners of that cam that rubs against it that opens and closes the points ? If not that's probably what the problem is and the gap is not right . After you tighten the screw recheck the gap because it can change .
I tried this, but could not get the bulb to turn off. It would turn off and on, however, if I rotated the distributor while the factory wire leading to the (+) side of coil was disconnected. Not sure why that is and if that’s an accurate way to check it or not?
I understood everything until I saw that number 1 on the distributor cap. It through me off only because I always see it pointed at the number one cylinder and not have it on the cap. I know that the wire on that number one cylinder was placed at the number one spark plug so I know it's correct. I just have never seen it done that way and I always said to my self why must it be pointed at the number one cylinder when no matter where it's pointed if you're on compression of the number one and connect the wire to it, number one can be started anywhere. Am I correct in that understanding ?
Hi Mark, one question: First, the pointer points exactly on the number 1 plug, but the test light is on. You turn the distributorclockwise, until the light goes out. At this position, the distributor pointer is about 15° beyond number 1 plug. Does this mean, that the spark has to "jump back" this distance?
Christian Schneller if you put your crankshaft pointing to 8, 10, 12 degrees (what ever your spec is) then the rotor will be about that many degrees off. Remember you are turning the distributor clockwise because the rotor turns counter-clockwise so actually the spark is jumping forward 😊.
@@marklennon1 thank you so much for your fast response. I very appreciate this. Will have to think about this because honestly it's still not logical for me yn
Number one piston is 10° before TDC. The pointer is exactly at number one on the distributor but there is no spark yet, test light is on. I turn the distributor clockwise which simmulates the pointer going counter clockwise, as it will during operation. With the pointer going counter clockwise, it already travels to number 5 and the spark has to jump back on number 1. With vacuum advance applied, the contact travels clockwise, but distributor stays. With 15 degrees of vacuum advance, the contact will interrupt when the pointer is exactly on no 1 of the distribitor piston is 10+15 degrees BTDC. Am I wrong. Sorry for the confusion and thank you a lot for your attention. 🙂👍🏻
I’m trying to set up a 351 ford engine that just got rebuilt and I’m so confused probably from watching to many videos most say to have the pointer at #1 however my chiltons manual shows the layout very similar to this with the pouter at #5or 6 when I’m at 6 below tdc which it calls for could this be correct?
I have a 79 Lincoln continental 4.0 6.6 L. Could you please walk me through how to do the top dead center procedure on a distributor without points. I believe my distributor is an electronic distributor
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Hey man, I know this was posted 4 years ago, but my son and I have been building a 69 mustang, with a 289 out of a 65. I haven't been able to get the damn distributor dialed in until your video. Every other video left me with more questions than answers. Found your video last night, and our project started for the first time last night. Thanks man!
Awesome!
This is wholesome
Set point gap before setting static timeing.
This is the most direct, easy to understand videos on this subject. You have a good way of clearly communicating. Thanks, you should do more!
Converted my 1971 Mustang Coupe from a 2 barrel intake to a 4 barrel and forgot to set the timing to TDC before removing things.
Was backfiring and sputtering until my brother and I found this video, got it running properly in 30 minutes thanks to you! AWESOME!
I’ve never seen that method but damn that was cool. I’ve just never thought about it that way… It makes perfect sense though. Thanks for sharing.
This is by far the best video to understand timing in a small block ford.
I totally agree!
This is so satisfying to watch. Especially the end when the engine starts. What a great feeling. :) Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Instead of fiddling around trying to get it to drop in the oil pump shaft just turn the crank until it drops down then turn the crank back to 10 degrees, so much easier.
Omg!!!! Very simple and to the point. A co worker actually sent me this video knowing that I was having trouble starting my car. This is exactly what I needed. Thank you a million.
Thanks for the refresher course, I remembered the steps, But forgot the position on the rotor, You made it straight to the point without all the selling products the way I like it, Really simple.
This is no doubt the best form of teaching I have seen on distributor timing. A+
I was going to say man you should be a professor of car engines because you explain so well and clearly, but then you said in class and I was like ok, makes perfect sense. He is a teacher after all.
Been struggling with my 67 289, after your video I’m feeling confident I will have it dialed in tomorrow!
Thank you for this video, direct and straight to the point, perfect
Yes, good video.👍👍
Manually set the crank and then tune the cap right too it with the pen light on Coil negative to battery positive .
5:55
Tap sliping the oil pump around actually works too.
You just got to remember to return to your mark.
I did a ford 460 today the exact same way
Exquisite video knowledge for all ol'fords, good job
Great video! 4:15 instead of playing with it, just bump the starter once and it'll drop right down. Just read that tip in my '66 service manual and it worked perfect!
Good idea just earth it out yeah
Doing that will also move the timing off 10° before TDC.
You'll notice in the video after he gets it on the compression stroke and sets it at the 10° mark, the engine doesn't rotate again until they start it.
The oil pump is also driven off the distributor, so bumping the engine doesn't make the oil shaft spin, but instead the cam gear rotates. The idea he shows in the video is to force the oil pump to rotate to match the rest of the engine, not vice-versa.
Perfect video, thank you so much for the excellent explanation on Ford SB timing and ignition.Thanks to you I finally got my 302 running.
This video really cleared up my confusion when setting my timing. Best and clearest video on this I found so far.
Thanks so much for showing how you had to fiddle with it to get it to seat completely. I had a hard time getting mine to seat, and now I understand why.
Helped a lot with timing of my 289 1965 in the Czech Republic. Running well. Many thanks 😉
Never seen anyone set timing like that. Thanks for the tip.
Thanks a bunch for making this video!! As a mechanically inclined guy with little Automotive experience this was perfect!! And I didn’t need a set of fancy tools. :)
Thank you. I remember replacing the distributor on a 302 and having a heck of a time getting it installed.
Thanks. My brother changed some stuff on my car due to no start condition turned out to be a fusable link wire. He changed everything cause he was helping. So your video helped me a lot. I'm a painter not a mechanic lol.
I've watched this a dozen times and you are a genius!
I've been struggling for last few weeks to get my f100 started after changing push rods lifter, tryed this started first time thanks🙂
Did you need to use a timing light?
@@dreamingcode The trucks started that well since I haven't had to put timing light on.
simple, straight, understandable. Thanks for posting!
This video helped me so much. I finally got my Boss 302 started and timed and I did it on almost the first try! Thanks you!
Great Video!! thanks for posting and sharing your experiences.
Where have you been all this time.........it’s a lost art to put to explain the firing order on a car....excellent ,, excellent excellent work....
Thank you for the nice words.
@@marklennon1 does this work on electronic ignition?
You prolly dont give a shit but does anyone know of a trick to log back into an instagram account..?
I stupidly forgot the password. I love any help you can offer me!
@Nicholas Brentley Instablaster ;)
@Ernest Solomon i really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and Im trying it out now.
I see it takes a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Thanks for this. I don't work on Fords. I'm a GM man. Working on a 289 that someone screwed up putting the dist in. Vacuum advance is hitting the thermostat housing and it needs to go even more to time it.
Great Video have a 64 Mustang over in the UK and wanted to check the timing as it developed a misfire hard to start and popping through the carb. Yet to try it but great detailed video 👍🏼
Great vid. Easy to understand. Very helpful.
thank you! This is the best video on setting the timing!
Thank You Sir! Brought my ‘72 Bronco back to life!! ;-D
I3adme awesome!
I'm excited to try this my self. Thank you
Best tuning video I’ve watched!
What do I do if my test light doesn't go off when I rotate the distributor?
You ever figure out the issue? Mine did the same thing
@@drakechalmers5650 trying to remember. I took it to a shop and they said they had to rebuild the distributor.
You are the Man......................Perfect!
I see what he's trying to do it's a good way of finding top TC of the compression stroke if you go past the timing mark make sure you turn it back a little bit farther and then turn it back to where you want the timing to be set which 10° is pretty good then when you put the distributor in and the rotor don't line up it's no big deal just estimate how much farther the rotors going to turn turn it back to the desired amount and all you do is rotate the engine backwards until the distributor falls into place then rotate it back to 10° and see if her roller lines up to where it should be normally the rotor doesn't go straight to the rear but a little bit to your right which is the left side of the engine then all you have to do watch your points turn the distributor until the points just start to open and you're right on top and where you want the timing mark to be I've done many engines many and sometimes I don't even have to move distributor when I put the timing light on it. PS I learned a lot of tricks from working on VW just valves set and timing..
Excellent!! Best one ive seen on timeing
Yeah buddy good job showing use how to do it! Super easy and simple! Great job again, thank you so much!!!!!!!
Best video on you tube about this subject by far.
Getting recommendations for time in the same engine without a vacuum advance. It’s locked out. We have it turned that way and I wanted to know if I can get all out of it get.
Thanks. Not sure just how to use every bit of everything you did, but I have done everything except put a light to it which seems key. My 65 289 is a beast but won't stay running. I will try what I can remember.
thanks for the video. never seen timing done that way.very helpfull !
Best how to video ever! Thanks.
Excellent video, thanks.
Great instruction. Right to the point. Thank you.
Best timing video ever
You are an ACE!🏺♠️
Awesome video man.
So where do I set my marks if there is no numbers of degree? It says TDC and then slashes after but no numbers? Love the video extremely informative but just a little stuck with this. Thanks for your time.
Excellent video thank you
use a 1/4" long shaft hex and turn the pump, then drop it back in.
Awesome 👌...
Thank you for making this Video...
Definitely an early 289 before the government regulated PCV system. Note the breather tube sticking up from the timing cover. It stands for independence! Love it!
It's interesting that if you Google 289 firing order you can find images that show the no.1 position in 3 or 4 different places but the firing order is always the same. In my case l tried putting the number one lead at the 12 o'clock position and the engine wouldn't start and back fired through the carb. After some investigation l discovered the the no. 1 position was actually at the 3 o'clock position relative to the video here. Different distributors maybe?
Great video.
Everything is good and enjoyable! I have never interacted with such old people - V8, but I have marks on the crankshaft pulley in a different place. motor 1966
Please help!
My uncle and I put a 302 in my 66 mustang. Everything was top dead center, distributer on 1 (mine ignition 1 doesn't point straight back like yours more back right) never did the 10 or 12 degree thing or the light test/timing gun. It starts, needs a new carb, and has a misfire.
Do I have to redue the timing?
The distributor?
If my timing is off would that cause my car to shake when trying to accelerate? Car shakes really bad when going 35 or is that do to the carb/possible misfire? Thank you!!!!!
What causes test light not to turn off while turning dizzy tried it with 2 distributors and it does the same thing
You ever figure it out? My timing light didn’t turn off as well
Great video , thanks
Mark, Great video. I have a question. I went through your process on my 70 Boss 302 with a dual point distributor. The light on my test light was dimly lite all the time and when the points opened I got a bright light on the test light. I am wondering why I have a constant dim light all the time? Does it have something to do with the dual points? Thanks
shelbygt350r I have a 70 Boss 302 in my F-150. I don’t think my distributer has dual points though. The timing is terrible right now, and I’m hoping this video helps. I don’t know if I have any numbers or pointer though. We’ll find out today!
neat trick with timing by using the points open/close with a test light not a timing light.
Thanks. Cool to find that out.
I have a 260 long block I'm getting ready to install in my 62 Mercury Meteor. Your video will definitely help me get it started quickly. Thanks again!
I'm confused I was told to do the thumb trick, set balancer on "0" and line up rotor to plug #1. So you set balancer to desired degree and not "0". I guess I will try this..its for a 302 stroked 331
Well done
This last time I put my distributor in, the rotary is facing the front, it usually faced the direction of the master cylinder. My question is, should it. Cause now my car is over heating and that's the only difference I can think of.
Points and condensors,ok,electronic with the box fits just fine,289,302,are the same hieght at the flange,
Outstanding! thanks you I didn't know about the the cylinder numbers stamped. Question could the crank shaft be moved to get the distributor to drop in vice stabbing it over and over? Again thanks a lot learn something new!
Thank you very much!! great tutorial video!!
Good video for newbies. You and I are likely related. Both ford guys ,LOL.
Hi, I'm curios to know what kind of set up have. Is that a engine block stand you built where you can start the engine with a press of a button?
At the time of this recording. We had this trainer set up so one button turned on the ignition and the second button engaged the starter. We have since moved to a switch with a key. Similar to a rotary switch.
Pretty nice to bring back stuff I learned in automotive school. I know this distributor had points. With the turning of the unit to get the light off, on a point less distributor do that light matter?
Oh wow this is amazing. Would this timing procedure apply to a 1973 302? My engine is shaking like crazy during idle, back fires, and dies as soon as its placed in gear.
Wow learnt a lot from this. Thanks
what does it mean if the light doesn't turn off?
Did you ever figure it out?
Excellent explanation. Thank you!
One question: how tie my distributor should be? I got a Ford F-100 1972 and the distributor is a little bit loose. Btw, it doesn't start. I guess because it is not timed, maybe?
Thanks for your help.
Very well explained.
Salud.
Does the using the light work for timing on electronic ignition?
Also wondering
Same
El distribuidor va antihorario en ese motor verdad?
Hey Mark, I have a 351 windsor efi and timing is throwing me off! When I get #1 on compression my timing mark is is 10 degrees atdc #1 on the dizzy is lined up perfect! But when I check this thing with a timing light its 16 to 20 atdc! The more I advance toward 10 btdc it starts to idle way to hi and my headers start to glow red hot quick after start up! When I have it set to where the motor seems happy header elbows dont get as hot but still getting red at at collection of tubes close to the shortie flange were it hooks up to exhaust especially when I raise the RPMs tubes will heat back up! Im lost!
I thought the rotor should pointing towards cylinder 1 as close as possible?
Oye, con un destornillador de pala puedes ubicar en su sitio la ranura de la bomba de aceite.
The Rokguitarstar said it all!!!!!!!
Great video
hopefully this finds you, i have followed this video multiple times. we have a 68 Mustang 289. when doing the test light method i wasn't able to get the light to shut off, only slightly dimmer. i set the point gap correctly. in fact the point is new.. any help would be great
When you did it did you turn the engine slowly until that rub block on the points was exactly on one of those corners of that cam that rubs against it that opens and closes the points ? If not that's probably what the problem is and the gap is not right . After you tighten the screw recheck the gap because it can change .
I tried this, but could not get the bulb to turn off. It would turn off and on, however, if I rotated the distributor while the factory wire leading to the (+) side of coil was disconnected. Not sure why that is and if that’s an accurate way to check it or not?
That router should be pointing approximately 1 o’clock position just like to Cleveland engine👍🏼
GRACIAS AMIGO, APRENDÍ A TOMAR EL TIEMPO SIN NECESIDAD DE LAMPARA: PREGUNTO, SE PUEDE HACER LO MISMO CON ENCENDIDO ELECTRONICO? (SIN PLATINOS).
is it just to leave it before moving on to timing lite after or no need?
Not an once of fat on this video. My guy top notch informative vid, I commend you.
Another question if I put the distributor in its place are supposed to be able to turn the rotor button once its flushed with the intake?
What if my harmonic balancer doesn’t have degree marks?
I understood everything until I saw that number 1 on the distributor cap. It through me off only because I always see it pointed at the number one cylinder and not have it on the cap. I know that the wire on that number one cylinder was placed at the number one spark plug so I know it's correct. I just have never seen it done that way and I always said to my self why must it be pointed at the number one cylinder when no matter where it's pointed if you're on compression of the number one and connect the wire to it, number one can be started anywhere. Am I correct in that understanding ?
Great vid. I had to watch a few times. So is a timing light not necessarily needed to set the timing?
Thank you!!!! Great Video!!!!
Hi Mark, one question: First, the pointer points exactly on the number 1 plug, but the test light is on. You turn the distributorclockwise, until the light goes out. At this position, the distributor pointer is about 15° beyond number 1 plug. Does this mean, that the spark has to "jump back" this distance?
Christian Schneller if you put your crankshaft pointing to 8, 10, 12 degrees (what ever your spec is) then the rotor will be about that many degrees off. Remember you are turning the distributor clockwise because the rotor turns counter-clockwise so actually the spark is jumping forward 😊.
@@marklennon1 thank you so much for your fast response. I very appreciate this. Will have to think about this because honestly it's still not logical for me yn
Number one piston is 10° before TDC. The pointer is exactly at number one on the distributor but there is no spark yet, test light is on. I turn the distributor clockwise which simmulates the pointer going counter clockwise, as it will during operation. With the pointer going counter clockwise, it already travels to number 5 and the spark has to jump back on number 1. With vacuum advance applied, the contact travels clockwise, but distributor stays. With 15 degrees of vacuum advance, the contact will interrupt when the pointer is exactly on no 1 of the distribitor piston is 10+15 degrees BTDC. Am I wrong. Sorry for the confusion and thank you a lot for your attention. 🙂👍🏻
I’m trying to set up a 351 ford engine that just got rebuilt and I’m so confused probably from watching to many videos most say to have the pointer at #1 however my chiltons manual shows the layout very similar to this with the pouter at #5or 6 when I’m at 6 below tdc which it calls for could this be correct?
Do I still put it on 12 degrees on the harmonic balancer ???
I have a 79 Lincoln continental 4.0 6.6 L. Could you please walk me through how to do the top dead center procedure on a distributor without points. I believe my distributor is an electronic distributor