I 100% agree! My reference point is the turn in point for the upcoming turn. Repeat, repeat, repeat until you no longer think and it becomes automatic.
I used to think of it in the context of my downshifts. Where do I need to start braking so I can get in the gear I want for corner entry and exit. Like you said, you might arrive at a given corner at a different speed on some laps so the marker becomes irrelevant.
Thanks John! Keep them coming! One thing I found that helped me was going to a car Event. Then comparing to my Ducati Events. A HPDE Track Day in a car at the same Track really helped me focus on RP's at Summit for both vehicles. Really paid dividends for T5, T7, T10 and even the down hill start of the Chute after T3.
one of the best drills ever is to ride laps without using the brakes at all. it teaches you to think ahead and gauge speed. california superbike school would dedicate an entire session to this drill. it allows you to vary braking points using reference to speed and position on track without relying on markers.
I mean, use reference points on track, but your actions/decisions aren’t fixed to those exact points; they are made IN RELATION to those reference points
Correct, but the implied thought process with using a "brake marker" means that rider starts their braking process like it's a fixed, non-adjustable action. If you give an input (throttle, gas, brake, turn in, etc) based off a reference point, it's (almost) infinitely adjustable.
@@jaottobotto - I see what you’re saying, I just never looked at “brake markers” as anything but a reference point to make your decision of when to brake relative to the situation in the moment… I can think of MANY times deciding to ‘late brake’ using my brake markers very carefully to understand what I can most likely get away with
@@SongJLikes you're on the right track. However, a lot of riders don't have the same thought process as you, hence the video. Lots of riders think "He says he brakes here, this is where I need to brake" without considering different braking styles, machinery, and previous corner exit speed. Thanks for the comments!
Thanks for the insight. I'm a noob to track days (3 so far), and braking markers is one thing I don't use. I tend to close gaps in the braking zone and wasn't sure if not using markers was correct prior to this video. Thanks for the confirmation bias. Your videos have been helpful, especially the passing video. I'm working hard to earn a bump
Hey John! Really enjoy these voiceover type videos! A lot of really good information that is super easy to understand! Could you expand on the reference point topic again at some point? This is something I most definitely struggle with on the track.
Think about it this way. The brake marker is an indicator to help you find your reference point. A 600 and 1000 will have completely different reference pints due to the weight and entry speed differential. In most cases when coming into a heavy braking corner, a 600 requires less distance in which to get to the optimum corner speed. Even a difference in engine arrangement (V twin or I4) or engine braking settings will impact the reference point for that heavy braking corner. A strategy I've seen is if unfamiliar with the track, do a couple of tours and use the brake markers to progressively set your reference point, i.e. Start at 6 and work your way forwards. You may then find that the most comfortable marker is 4 which probably means your reference point might be between 4 and 3. Then you will fine tune based on track conditions. For example, on a full tank with new tyres, 3 and 3 quarters might be the reference point. If your tank is almost finished and the bike is light, tyres doing good, you can probably brake at 3.5. So it will change during a session. In ideal conditions and as the day progresses, the reference braking pint can get even lower as all the rubber is laid down on the track. What's important is to use the markers to find your reference point and then to be able to hit that reference consistently each lap. Racing against other people though into that corner is another matter. One which should only really be tackled fully once you get used to the track and are comfortable with your reference points. As he said, in racing, you will sometimes have to compromise your reference point to make a pass but then understand that this will affect your apex or drive phase.
Makes alot of sense to any level of rider to use reference points. If remember correctly Freddie Spencer was asked if used brake markers and he said he did not use them because he did not need em. Basically he does not use brake markers. I think he has a thinkers way of wrestling those big superbikes.
I only use them for high-speed corners where i cant see. Maybe i need a tigher helmet but breaking into T1 and the chicane at Daytona is where i use it
You really should pay more attention to the better riders around you. The way you explained this was as if there is one universal breakpoint for every rider and every bike, and that’s just not true. Even when I get to a new track, I know I have to start out with a certain breakpoint and change it as I get more comfortable exiting the corner before that and breaking into that corner. Obviously it’s going to change if I have a bad exit or if I have to pass somebody going into a corner, but if you think these top riders are doing 15 to 20 laps within half a second of each other on an open track at record setting pace without break points, you would probably be best served not posting videos trying to educate other riders about technique.
@@jaottobotto I feel zero obligation to post videos of myself riding my motorcycle. I think there’s one from 2008 somewhere on here. Doesn’t change the fact. There are plenty of discussions of world class riders to be found talking about brake points. They use them. But if you want to listen to Joe Schmo here saying they’re dumb, then feel free to listen to him. I’ll go with what I learned at the professional riding schools I’ve been to and have heard reinforced from, once again, world class riders.
@@cenzano38 your first reply told us that you didn’t watch the video, your second reply is a testimony to your inability to learn from these world class riders you speak of.
@@jaottobottoMy THIRD reply is that you definitely don’t pay attention to what’s written down right in front of you. I never said I didn’t watch your nonsensical video. I’ll also add again that you’ve likely never been to a riding/racing school, been properly coached, or read books on riding on track. You’d know that riding points are all over on them. Maybe doing that would keep you from looking like someone posting that counter-steering starts at a certain speed.
@@cenzano38 I'm sorry you didn't read or watch anything. In your first comment, never did I say anywhere that there is a universal braking point. That's entirety of my video, and you're just reiterating what I said in my video, which is why I know you didn't actually listen or watch it.
Braking points or references can be...a cone,numbered marker,patch work in trake,discoloration on track. It can be..a marker counting 1,2 brake. It depends. Something you have to work on. Conditions, drafting,etc play a part.
This is utter bullshit. Brake markers ARE reference points. Whoever uses brake markers as the only places they can brake, they are fooling themselves. The "intangible reference point" that you're telling yourself you use, is an excuse not to discuss what other hundreds of references you're using. Example, your 5 board into turn 1. Sometimes you'll get there faster and need to brake sooner, sometimes you'll arrive slower and can wait a couple of meters but that board ain't moving. A brake marker is not law, it's a reference point to remind you where in the track you are. Use it as such. Same with tip-in points, apexes, exit points, racing lines etc. All of those are references AND markers that tell them where they are on track and what comes next, and next, next. Your brain is processing waaaay more information that you are being aware of it seems, and it's doing you a disservice.
@@jaottobotto nope. you use them as a reference. If you're first learning a track, you might start braking at the 4 board, and as you build speed, you keep pushing that brake marker until you can't make it down to the apex or it screws up your drive. You have to use your big brain to judge if you're coming into the turn faster or slower than normal and adjust your braking point accordingly. Seems silly to not use them.
I 100% agree! My reference point is the turn in point for the upcoming turn. Repeat, repeat, repeat until you no longer think and it becomes automatic.
I used to think of it in the context of my downshifts. Where do I need to start braking so I can get in the gear I want for corner entry and exit. Like you said, you might arrive at a given corner at a different speed on some laps so the marker becomes irrelevant.
Thanks John! Keep them coming! One thing I found that helped me was going to a car Event. Then comparing to my Ducati Events. A HPDE Track Day in a car at the same Track really helped me focus on RP's at Summit for both vehicles. Really paid dividends for T5, T7, T10 and even the down hill start of the Chute after T3.
one of the best drills ever is to ride laps without using the brakes at all. it teaches you to think ahead and gauge speed. california superbike school would dedicate an entire session to this drill. it allows you to vary braking points using reference to speed and position on track without relying on markers.
I mean, use reference points on track, but your actions/decisions aren’t fixed to those exact points; they are made IN RELATION to those reference points
Correct, but the implied thought process with using a "brake marker" means that rider starts their braking process like it's a fixed, non-adjustable action. If you give an input (throttle, gas, brake, turn in, etc) based off a reference point, it's (almost) infinitely adjustable.
@@jaottobotto - I see what you’re saying, I just never looked at “brake markers” as anything but a reference point to make your decision of when to brake relative to the situation in the moment… I can think of MANY times deciding to ‘late brake’ using my brake markers very carefully to understand what I can most likely get away with
@@SongJLikes you're on the right track. However, a lot of riders don't have the same thought process as you, hence the video. Lots of riders think "He says he brakes here, this is where I need to brake" without considering different braking styles, machinery, and previous corner exit speed. Thanks for the comments!
Thanks for the insight. I'm a noob to track days (3 so far), and braking markers is one thing I don't use. I tend to close gaps in the braking zone and wasn't sure if not using markers was correct prior to this video. Thanks for the confirmation bias. Your videos have been helpful, especially the passing video. I'm working hard to earn a bump
Hey John! Really enjoy these voiceover type videos! A lot of really good information that is super easy to understand! Could you expand on the reference point topic again at some point? This is something I most definitely struggle with on the track.
Think about it this way. The brake marker is an indicator to help you find your reference point. A 600 and 1000 will have completely different reference pints due to the weight and entry speed differential. In most cases when coming into a heavy braking corner, a 600 requires less distance in which to get to the optimum corner speed. Even a difference in engine arrangement (V twin or I4) or engine braking settings will impact the reference point for that heavy braking corner.
A strategy I've seen is if unfamiliar with the track, do a couple of tours and use the brake markers to progressively set your reference point, i.e. Start at 6 and work your way forwards. You may then find that the most comfortable marker is 4 which probably means your reference point might be between 4 and 3. Then you will fine tune based on track conditions.
For example, on a full tank with new tyres, 3 and 3 quarters might be the reference point. If your tank is almost finished and the bike is light, tyres doing good, you can probably brake at 3.5. So it will change during a session. In ideal conditions and as the day progresses, the reference braking pint can get even lower as all the rubber is laid down on the track.
What's important is to use the markers to find your reference point and then to be able to hit that reference consistently each lap.
Racing against other people though into that corner is another matter. One which should only really be tackled fully once you get used to the track and are comfortable with your reference points. As he said, in racing, you will sometimes have to compromise your reference point to make a pass but then understand that this will affect your apex or drive phase.
Makes alot of sense to any level of rider to use reference points. If remember correctly Freddie Spencer was asked if used brake markers and he said he did not use them because he did not need em. Basically he does not use brake markers. I think he has a thinkers way of wrestling those big superbikes.
Same applies for when people mention “shift points”
I only use them for high-speed corners where i cant see. Maybe i need a tigher helmet but breaking into T1 and the chicane at Daytona is where i use it
very helpful take.. I never heard it explained this way, but it does make sense.
Nice video. Thank you
Brake check reference FTW
Makes allot of sense...
Brake when you see Elvis.....
You really should pay more attention to the better riders around you. The way you explained this was as if there is one universal breakpoint for every rider and every bike, and that’s just not true. Even when I get to a new track, I know I have to start out with a certain breakpoint and change it as I get more comfortable exiting the corner before that and breaking into that corner. Obviously it’s going to change if I have a bad exit or if I have to pass somebody going into a corner, but if you think these top riders are doing 15 to 20 laps within half a second of each other on an open track at record setting pace without break points, you would probably be best served not posting videos trying to educate other riders about technique.
You should post up some of your videos so we can learn from them.
@@jaottobotto I feel zero obligation to post videos of myself riding my motorcycle. I think there’s one from 2008 somewhere on here. Doesn’t change the fact. There are plenty of discussions of world class riders to be found talking about brake points. They use them. But if you want to listen to Joe Schmo here saying they’re dumb, then feel free to listen to him. I’ll go with what I learned at the professional riding schools I’ve been to and have heard reinforced from, once again, world class riders.
@@cenzano38 your first reply told us that you didn’t watch the video, your second reply is a testimony to your inability to learn from these world class riders you speak of.
@@jaottobottoMy THIRD reply is that you definitely don’t pay attention to what’s written down right in front of you. I never said I didn’t watch your nonsensical video. I’ll also add again that you’ve likely never been to a riding/racing school, been properly coached, or read books on riding on track. You’d know that riding points are all over on them. Maybe doing that would keep you from looking like someone posting that counter-steering starts at a certain speed.
@@cenzano38 I'm sorry you didn't read or watch anything. In your first comment, never did I say anywhere that there is a universal braking point. That's entirety of my video, and you're just reiterating what I said in my video, which is why I know you didn't actually listen or watch it.
So what you're saying is... Brake check reference was the way all along. Got it.
Braking points or references can be...a cone,numbered marker,patch work in trake,discoloration on track. It can be..a marker counting 1,2 brake. It depends. Something you have to work on. Conditions, drafting,etc play a part.
This is utter bullshit. Brake markers ARE reference points. Whoever uses brake markers as the only places they can brake, they are fooling themselves. The "intangible reference point" that you're telling yourself you use, is an excuse not to discuss what other hundreds of references you're using. Example, your 5 board into turn 1. Sometimes you'll get there faster and need to brake sooner, sometimes you'll arrive slower and can wait a couple of meters but that board ain't moving. A brake marker is not law, it's a reference point to remind you where in the track you are. Use it as such. Same with tip-in points, apexes, exit points, racing lines etc. All of those are references AND markers that tell them where they are on track and what comes next, and next, next. Your brain is processing waaaay more information that you are being aware of it seems, and it's doing you a disservice.
they're just reference points...to say, "don't use braking markers" is the most idiotic, clickbait thing you could title this.
@@andygilliland so you’re saying you’d brake at the same spot on T1 every time regardless of if you had a terrible or stellar last corner exit drive?
@@jaottobotto nope. you use them as a reference. If you're first learning a track, you might start braking at the 4 board, and as you build speed, you keep pushing that brake marker until you can't make it down to the apex or it screws up your drive. You have to use your big brain to judge if you're coming into the turn faster or slower than normal and adjust your braking point accordingly. Seems silly to not use them.