Classic question! --- Spoiler --- I got the flashback bonus question wrong because i thought the targets were declared before it went on the stack. Whoops!
Gandalf's Sanction vs Tarmogoyf with 20 instants but no sorceries in your graveyard is an interesting one. You will have excess damage, but still won't kill Goyf.
Could you do a video on Lightning Storm and other cards (if there are any) that put counters on things that aren't permanents, players or cards in exile? I kind of get how it works, but its confusing in how it interacts with things that interact with counters (I'm guessing it doesn't), but especially I don't get how it works with priority & resolving when you activate the ability of a card on the stack to put counters on itself.
Name a specific "thing that interact with counters" first. Proliferate and time travel explicitly mentions the game objects they can interact with (permanents and players/suspended cards you own and permanents you control). Lightning Storm specifically has the relevant rulings on its Gatherer page, but most of this is normal: - The player casting Lightning Storm gets priority as usual and can immediately activate Lightning Storm - Activating puts a copy of the ability on the stack. If this resolves, the target of the spell changes (if the player activating this ability does so) and a counter is put on the Lightning Storm on the stack. Afterwards, the active player gets priority (this may not be the player casting Lightning Storm).
I think the term "lethal damage" is misleading. The rules are much clearer. 704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, it has damage marked on it, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event. So there's never "lethal damage". Otherwise there might be uncertainty if the "lethal damage" became "non-lethal"
There *is* lethal damage, though. The rules are indeed clear: 302.7. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect is marked on that creature (see rule 120.3). If the total damage marked on that creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage So at the time the damage is dealt, it is "lethal damage", as defined by the rules. It is no longer lethal damage at the time when state-based actions are checked, which is why the goyf survives. But you can’t say that there’s never lethal damage.
@@Grimgar1337 but when the lethal damage rule states it's destroyed at the time lethal damage is applied, why does goyf remain on board until the priority is passed to the goyf player allowing their goyf to grow off the spell that just killed it? Goyf should go to the graveyard at the same time as lightning bolt or even right before it since it was dealt lethal damage, it should not remain on board long enough to see the priority to pass and state based actions to be checked
@@illiji915 The lethal damage rule does not state that it's destroyed at the time lethal damage is applied. Rather, anytime the game checks for state-based actions, any creatures that are lethally damaged are destroyed. This difference between when the creature is damaged and when the creature is destroyed means that creature can have damage equal to or greater than its toughness and not be destroyed if its toughness increases before the game performs state-based actions (which is what happens in the goyf+bolt case from this video).
@@miserepoignee9594 704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, it has damage marked on it, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature *has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.* that sounds like it is immediately destroyed
@@illiji915 State-based actions are the thing that cause goyf to go to the graveyard, so of course it has to stay on the board long enough to see state-based actions be checked.
What doesn't kill you grows the tarmogoyf
as well as dying
Gotta say, the flashback part was a bit of a surprise to me
A true classic
I love how there is a more recent version of this interaction in foundations.
An all-time classic
I'm surprised this hasn't been a DDR video already. This is a classic
It was, #20, 3 years ago
That was a rite of passage for modern players
Classic question!
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Spoiler
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I got the flashback bonus question wrong because i thought the targets were declared before it went on the stack. Whoops!
I missed what this was updated for
Merry Christmas from the Gallaghers! We need to meet up for some dinner
Gandalf's Sanction vs Tarmogoyf with 20 instants but no sorceries in your graveyard is an interesting one. You will have excess damage, but still won't kill Goyf.
Love it!
What about Perplexing Chimera and Mutate?
Or Spelljack?
What about Mindslaver stuff?
Could you do a video on Lightning Storm and other cards (if there are any) that put counters on things that aren't permanents, players or cards in exile? I kind of get how it works, but its confusing in how it interacts with things that interact with counters (I'm guessing it doesn't), but especially I don't get how it works with priority & resolving when you activate the ability of a card on the stack to put counters on itself.
Name a specific "thing that interact with counters" first.
Proliferate and time travel explicitly mentions the game objects they can interact with (permanents and players/suspended cards you own and permanents you control).
Lightning Storm specifically has the relevant rulings on its Gatherer page, but most of this is normal:
- The player casting Lightning Storm gets priority as usual and can immediately activate Lightning Storm
- Activating puts a copy of the ability on the stack. If this resolves, the target of the spell changes (if the player activating this ability does so) and a counter is put on the Lightning Storm on the stack. Afterwards, the active player gets priority (this may not be the player casting Lightning Storm).
A Classic!
i thinm the only change in this video vs the original is Dave is in his completed man cave.
Ah, Jund.
What will happen to tarmogoyf if you cast a dress down?
I think the term "lethal damage" is misleading. The rules are much clearer.
704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, it has damage marked on it, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
So there's never "lethal damage". Otherwise there might be uncertainty if the "lethal damage" became "non-lethal"
There *is* lethal damage, though. The rules are indeed clear:
302.7. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect is marked on that creature (see rule 120.3). If the total damage marked on that creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage
So at the time the damage is dealt, it is "lethal damage", as defined by the rules. It is no longer lethal damage at the time when state-based actions are checked, which is why the goyf survives. But you can’t say that there’s never lethal damage.
@@Grimgar1337 but when the lethal damage rule states it's destroyed at the time lethal damage is applied, why does goyf remain on board until the priority is passed to the goyf player allowing their goyf to grow off the spell that just killed it? Goyf should go to the graveyard at the same time as lightning bolt or even right before it since it was dealt lethal damage, it should not remain on board long enough to see the priority to pass and state based actions to be checked
@@illiji915 The lethal damage rule does not state that it's destroyed at the time lethal damage is applied. Rather, anytime the game checks for state-based actions, any creatures that are lethally damaged are destroyed. This difference between when the creature is damaged and when the creature is destroyed means that creature can have damage equal to or greater than its toughness and not be destroyed if its toughness increases before the game performs state-based actions (which is what happens in the goyf+bolt case from this video).
@@miserepoignee9594 704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, it has damage marked on it, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature *has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.*
that sounds like it is immediately destroyed
@@illiji915 State-based actions are the thing that cause goyf to go to the graveyard, so of course it has to stay on the board long enough to see state-based actions be checked.