Right? I just couldn’t fathom the amount of corruption, lies, and ABUSE that is rife in the church. Plus the victims kept coming, and coming, and coming… which makes me believe the kid abuser was probably abused himself. There’s likely a lonnng, hidden chain of abuse in the church that has been stifled and smothered. I don’t know if you’re a former Mormon, but I worry about kids in nursery. It would be the perfect place for kids to be abused, kids who can’t speak up or don’t know what’s going on.
The perpetrator can be placed in a treatment facility. This is what SHOULD happen if the abuse is reported to Child and Family Services and they deem he is a threat to other children, which he obviously was. And yes, when children receive treatment, there is a good chance for a positive outcome. Once they become adults a positive outcome is less likely.
My friend's husband is a police officer and when he was "called" as one of my ex-husband's counselors, she told me that she was so glad that her husband would never get called as bishop because he was a mandatory reporter. It felt weird when she told me that, but now I realize in hindsight how absolutely alarming that statement was.
So much rage throughout this episode, and I’m just an outsider. Mad respect for having the courage to speak out despite some of the most egregious (communal) gaslighting I’ve ever heard of.
This was a fantastic episode, and an exposé into how members of the Church become victims yet again by being gaslighted and bullied to continue to allow abuse in the Church and the protection of the institution at all costs.
Ashley was so reserved in part 1 but MAMA BEAR came out, as she should! tragic that it had to happen, but I’m proud these parents fought for their children.
It makes me super mad to hear about "daughter too young to remember" - I was the same age when sexual abuse happened, it was for a longer period of time though (I was 3-4), and it was really difficult to cope with the half-memories I have but that I could and cannot properly grasp. Because memory is so foggy, and nothing is clear cut, it is complicated to near-impossible to think it through and come to a conclusion, it cannot be rationalised. This kind of early childhood memory can be very traumatizing, because it is a dark and shapeshifting threat, it caused me a lot of pain in my life. It took so much therapy, I am 40 now and a happy human, but I felt for a long time like I never had a childhood and like I never had any happy childhood memories, because everything was overshadowed by weird feelings of shame and guilt, there was only a sense of total loss of control over my life because of the lack of understanding what had happened to me, I just felt like a "rotten fruit" ;(
This was such a terrible experience. Thank you for sharing it because maybe one day, maybe one TBM will be pricked in their heart to discover the human cost to SA and the criminal enterprises that keep it going generation after generation.
Hey y'all, thanks for all your kind words :) they mean a lot to me :) I forgot to mention what helped me more than any therapy: transparency. Therapy kept me alive, but I didn't get better by it before I acknowledged and openly talked about what happened, so I was able to reframe the experience in a years-/decade-long process. This was absolute key for me.
@@kellyreilly-robinson2130 @Kelly Reilly-Robinson one day at a time, until one is possible to see a more bright future ahead. Good on you, Kelly :) So good to know there are others that made it through ok, in the end :D life can be so good
What you said about this being an epidemic of sexual shame was so poignant. It has affected so many lives, mine included. I developed DID as a result of my experiences. I have a daughter that came out as a lesbian after being married in the temple. trying to reconcile everything in my head while still being a good Mormon finally came to a point where I thought I was going to explode. I have always hated church yet have served in many big callings and thought I was unusual in the fact that I dreaded church every single week my whole life. And then I had a member of the stake presidency shatter my view of priesthood holders. That is a story that makes just about anyone pry when I talk about it. I was so furious that I cried for hours. I also have a friend whose bishop abused her son, and several other boys in the ward. Yet when they went to trial, most of the ward sided with him. And even though he was convicted and sentenced, they all still sided with him. Incredible that here these boys were brave enough to finally stand up and yet they are being shamed and ostracized for doing so. I never realized what a toxic place being in the church was. It feels so freeing to have an extra day of the week all to myself, and not have to answer to anyone or be in charge of anything. I had to divorce my husband in order to get that peace, but it was worth it.
One of the boundaries I had a hard time learning because of my mormon upbringing is that I am not responsible to keep other people's secrets or to protect their reputations. IMO that is misplaced loyalty. In addition, if I know of a person who is sexually abusing others or breaking the law and I don't tell everyone I know that might be affected, I am in part responsible for future victims. IMO Radical honesty is the best policy. I believe that secrets, lies and misrepresentations of the truth are the friend of abusers and Jared was spot on in saying that for many organizations including the LDS church the goal of a helpline is often not to help the victims but to head off damage to the organization's reputation. How is the kid supposed to learn how serious what he did was unless he is faced with serious real world consequences such as everyone knowing and treating him accordingly? Another very courageous discussion. Wishing Jared and Ashley joy and more love on their journey.
I’ve been watching this episode all day. I get the feeling this was hard for John. Having the strength to platform all these stories is a blessing. If you need to take a break John please do many people here want to see you to continue to thrive and be able to give a voice to good people like the jared and Ashley ❤
This story was a huge revelation on my own situation. When I was 8 my dad passed away, and a year later my mom had us join the LDS church after being offered comfort by missionaries promising that their way meant that she could live with him again after this life. However, this decision ended up being one of the worst things that ever happened to me as a child. During that first year, at the age of 9 and still lost and grieving over my father, while spending time after school at the house of an elder who's wife ran a form of childcare, I was SA'd by that elder. Truthfully I was so disassociated for most of the whole thing, I don't remember all the of specific details, I remember how it started, I remember certain things taking place, I remember talking to the police and not being very forthcoming with the extent of what actually happened (something I still beat myself up over,) and most importantly - I remember talking to someone else. Who asked me over and over and over again if I forgave him, and how important forgiveness was, and I just wanted them to shut up, so I finally said yes I forgive him. As an SA'd disassociated 9 year old, as if that meant something. I spent the rest of my life until today thinking that this was something to do with a legal settlement or something, but I was wrong. When you talked about the whole theme of forgiveness being pressured onto you after what happened to your daughter, I just felt this pit in the bottom of my stomach. It seemed related. So I did something I haven't done in 30 years since this happened and spoke with my mother about the specifics of how she handled it. She's generally pretty reluctant to speak about it at all, but something was different this time. She relayed the process to me, and no where in there was me speaking to anyone else about forgiveness, there was no legal settlement, just me talking to the police. It certainly wouldn't have been appropriate for someone with the police to ask such a thing, and if I had been my therapist at the time, I feel like I would have remembered it better, because I spent a lot of time with them. I told her about this memory and she got so mad, because she had the same thought I did: someone with the church spoke to me about forgiveness, and not only that, if this is true then they also did so totally without my mom's awareness or consent on the matter. Nothing really happened to the guy at the time. I know stories about how he was abusing his own daughters as well, and that somehow his wife decided to stay with him. We moved wards, but they stayed right where they were, and his wife kept running childcare out of her home. I was given a letter of "apology" clearly written by the dude's lawyer that I've hung onto this whole time. I've always been kicking myself for not speaking up more at the time, but I have to show myself forgiveness, I was a very young child who went through a whole lot of traumatizing crap in a very short amount of time. I may finally have the piece of the puzzle that leads me to pressing charges with that letter in hand. I truly believe this helped me realize that my situation was purposefully covered up and swept under the rug by the church. So, truly, thank you for sharing your stories and helping to pull out some of my repressed memories. I am reaching out to a lawyer now. Edit: reading through some of the comments now and WOW, yeah, the whole "church intervention on the victim" thing seems to be a REALLY common theme. Only strengthens what I believe happened. I am so livid.
As a victim myself, I urge you to press charges. Why? Not for vengeance, but for closure for yourself. For that little girl you once were that was robbed of her innocence by an adult. For all those other victims and possible future victims. You have the key to turn that lock. You will feel so liberated. Not that it will ever be forgotten, but he won't have that hold of you anymore. Sending you healing vibes and all the courage you need to do whatever is best for you.
I am so sorry that this happened to you and I’m so sorry about the way that it was handled by the people around you. Please be kinder to your young self. You did the best that you could at the time
I'm glad that John said the LDS church is a harbour for paedos. I've often thought that, but never said it. Jared and Ashley are inspirational. They refused to let go. Knowing that the leaders are fully aware of the problem within the church is sickening. They care about money more than they care about the children.
Damn right that it's a safe space (if not a breeding ground) for abusive monsters. There's a reason Ted Bundy took an interest in the church, however briefly. It's like that quote that says "If you welcome both wolves and sheep all you'll end up with is wolves." The smart or the lucky sheep will head for safety elsewhere and any that are left will be eaten.
I was in the primary presidency in my ward in Oregon and we were told there was a sexual offender in the ward but they wouldn't tell us who it was because they didn't want him to feel unwelcome. From that point on I had extreme anxiety so I was always checking in on classrooms, bathrooms, even the stage to make sure the primary kids were safe.
I'm wondering why zero discussions or altercations with the abuser himself came up in this storyline. It sounds to me like he was being treated with "kid gloves" by absolutely everybody. This kid sounds like he's incapable of remorse and somehow no one in his life or the wider community were trying to find out why.
Their story has so many similarities to the local sex abuse case here in Kasson, Minnesota where LDS Church leaders defended a registered sex offender in court. Thank you Jared and Ashley for your courage and vulnerability in sharing your stories!
Hugs to John and his crew for giving people a platform to speak out for change. I am not a Morman, but I have had issues with organized religion. I think we need to coin a term "high demand organizations." This enslave people too.
Domestic abuse, narcissistic abuse would fall in the same category, I think. Like John said, the abuser only cares about protecting/ preserving authority.
Can confirm that this is the typical church response. Similar thing happened in my east coast ward. Hide it, cover it up, don’t tell the mom as soon as you know, let the abuser keep attending church, don’t tell the majority of ward members.
Reminds me of the Dugger son that is now in prison for SA and child porn. It all started when he was a kid and their church and his own family hid it all with him never receiving any real consequences until he was an adult.
I'm 66 years old and was molested by my uncle when I was 3. He was 13. I never forgot about it. I'm not sure how it actually affected me if at all, but I remember it to this day.
My daughter told me at 3 1/2 years old that her father, my X husband , had and still was molesting her. I reported to DCFS and the state of Utah sent an unqualified person to interview my daughter but sent her to her dad's house and left a note about the investigation in his door. He called and found out he was being investigated and from there forward threatened our daughter that he was going to murder me and blow up our house killing her brothers and grandma. I was an active member married to my second husband from El Salvador. My daughter told us about the threats and more about her molestation. We then caught her brothers doing and speaking sexually to each other. I went to our bishop with our info and witness info of their step dad, my second husband, my mom and myself. But because 2 of us weren't priesthood holders that the church could do nothing until the state or courts did something. My X came to our oldest son's baptism and demanded to Baptize him. I was devastated because my bishop knew of the molestation. My bishop told me because my X had a current temple recommend and his bishop said he's worthy then my X can baptize or eldest son. We had to sit thru the baptism knowing the church would do nothing. I reported prior to his bishop and nothing was done. My X even was the Scout master of his ward.. and was an elementary school teacher. The church covering this up, never reporting and even allowing my X to Baptize, have a temple recommend and scout master. All of this was the final straw... I left the church. It ended my second marriage the stress and my second husband after talking to the bishop minimized the abuse and told me maybe the kids are lying. The LDS church participated in destroying my kid's lives. I have so much anger about this. I devoted so much of my life and money to the church and they protect sexual abusers. Years later I owned a magazine for single moms and was one of the top advocates for single moms in Utah. This is a huge problem in the LDS church. There are so many stories I've advocated for. Interesting, my magazine, Synergy for Single Moms, was the first magazine the church allowed to be distributed in church employment offices.
@@walkbyfaith2874 I'm not a member anymore. It took years and me threatening legal actions against the LDS church to get my name removed from the church records.
I’m really horrified for the daughter of the General Authority who was molested. Her father talking about that and making decisions about forgiveness. He does not have that right to decide for others. I am also horrified that this former foster child who had already experienced so much trauma and was further traumatized can have what happened to her swept away since she is so young. Nobody can speculate on how it is for her and to insist forgiveness is the most important ideal. Barf!
Jared and Ashley are amazing people!!! At the end when Jared said the most important thing for home was for him to be true to what he knows to be true, that he is willing to chance loosing money and friends and prestige, ALL of this to be true, was so powerful!!! So many people are too afraid. But the truth will set you free Jared and Ashley ❤
John, the "ad" for MS is terrific. Wonderful idea to share the mission of MS & demographics of viewers. When we think of how overwhelmed our mental health system is, MS goes a long way to helping people understand & recover from high demand groups & institutions. Kudos for this positive, honest explanation. We all need honest information more than ever.
This same thing happened to our family when my friend got groomed and abused by a high priest at the age of 14. Us kids tried to warn our other friends about him, we were told to keep our mouths shut. Our bishop told our parents that if anyone talks about it to anybody else in the ward again, our parent's temple recommends would be taken away and their membership would "be in question". So we were basically forced to keep our mouths shut, while the pedophile pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Of course, I never stopped telling everyone about the dangerous CONVICTED pedophile named Hector Amezcua, who has a record in Minnesota, but has since moved to California in the Buena Vista area. If anyone knows this man, PLEASE KEEP ALL CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS MAN!!
One thing that must be brought up is most kids that are molesting are more than likely victims of molestation themselves. I think the parents or friends of the family - the adults- of this boy should be investigated. This could be why the adults are covering this up. Maybe they're the perpetuator of this boy. This is a serious thing and it's common in the LDS church. This boy's actions point to him being a victim as well - by an adult. His father should be questioned first and sounds like the stake president who's friends with the boys family should be investigated.
I kept thinking this though the whole episode. This kid learned his behavior from someone. I kept hoping they would point this out. Also, in my experience, priesthood holders are just a big boy's club aimed at protecting each other. So happy to hear this mentioned.
I wish this were brought up. It's easy to claim some people are just "born" predators and are irredeemable, but the ugly truth is that most children who abuse other children are survivors themselves, and simply naming and shaming them without wondering what might have happened to them is helping perpetuate the cycle. Note: I am not implying that survivors of child abuse are inherently going to become abusers, nor that adult abusers have been through sexual abuse. Rather, *children* who abuse tend to have gone through something themselves and they need to be separated from their victims and other children AND given support in order to heal and avoid becoming adult offenders as well.
I just listened to this and I honestly think they were willingly giving their son access to children knowing what he was going to do. They were all in on it. They all liked the power.
Please please please get counseling support for this baby. My parent was abused as a preschool child. They had nightmares for years and was a teen before anyone told them what had happened. Childern do remember that bad things happened even when they don't have words for it.
I dont understand why the focus was on this kid's "repentance" and not on getting him specialized therapy right away to make sure he stops doing this! That is alarming.
I don't generally listen to a lot of podcasts, but this one rang very close to home. Thank you for speaking up Jared and Ashley. It can be such a scary thing to do especially when you know you're just going to get a lot of push back and rejection when/if you do.. Jared, I admire that you have come to peace with where you are in life. You also acknowledge that other's may not come to the same conclusion as you have which, you say, is also their right. (You have shown a lot of respect for your wife in where she is at in her journey as it appears, you and her might be in a little different places). I hope that your family can heal and find peace and love whereever life's road takes you.
i so feel for you, yes it is so hard to walk away from your faith even when it is justified, walking away from what you have always known feels like walking into an abyss. so sorry for what you experienced also inspired by you guys for sticking up for your kids and holding feet to the fire. 🙏
Wow!!! Very powerful!!! I have so much respect for Jared confronting years of indoctrination and choosing his own truth and principles. Would love to hear more from them. ❤️❤️❤️
We went through similar situation but different religion. It just about destroyed us as a family but thank goodness several years later we came out ok. My daughter is the strongest most loving human I know and is well adjusted adult who helps autistic children. Evil never wins even when it seems it may.
As someone who was m*lested as a baby and only found out about the abuse a few months ago (I’m almost 25), our bodies remember. When I finally found out, everything made sense. Had I been talked to about the abuse as a younger person, I would not have lived with sexual shame for so long. What IS a shame is finding out that family members still protect my abuser and he’s likely still offending. My hands are completely tied because he lives in another country. Thank you for raising hell for your child and the other families. It brings me peace
The body certainly does remember. And for your having to learn of it so long after, ... But at least you did & if that helps things make sense, hopefully that will lead you further. I very often wonder if there is a child on the planet who reaches 10 w/o bring violated. Truly, I believe this is the essential Biblical "wound," the particular shame sexual sensation immediately produces. As a wee child no one has any prior reference to identify what has happened, let alone SHAME in it. 🎶🎶🎶 for you
I feel that the real reason The Church protects the abusers is because the abusers are part of their families. My personal experience regarding sex abuse is in my own family with a sibling. He was protected by my mother and still is because- Priesthood holder. That was the 1970's and '80s. Now my brother has served time in prison in Utah and Washington state for abusing multiple children and is on parole after being released last year. My sibling who was his victim is bringing charges against him and I stand with that victim. I am sure things are about to get ugly in the family with more time in court Sex abuse is pervasive in every corner of the globe and in every kind of communal organization. We must not let shame prevent us from speaking up. I care nothing about the reputation of The Church or the supposed power of the Priesthood. I appreciate that this family has spoken up here. Everybody please join me in speaking freely about the crimes against victims
The times “WHAT THE F**K?!!” entered my mind during this episode = one hundred thousand million trillion. Okay, maybe a slight exaggeration, but seriously, what the f**k?!!!?!!! This is so seriously messed up in so many ways.
Is anyone looking into the perpetrator’s family to see if someone is/has abused this kid? This doesn’t usually just “pop up.” He’s learned this behavior somewhere
@@slconley You can, but often children who've abuse other children have themselves been victims of sexual abuse, and it's worth looking into in order to both help these kids never offend again AND protect the younger children in the family.
This brings me back to my high school days when my mentally handicapped brother was raped by four priests. Nothing was done. All four went on missions etc. and my own parents made up some excuse as to why my brother was catatonic. This has ruined my brother for life.
A child's mind stores memories of events such as these. They can come to the surface at any time. Too young to remember is a sad sad excuse to not let the victim be heard and justice done
I have several experiences in my family of the church covering up abuse. They church will go to any length to cover up abuse, even go as far as getting the child to falsely accuse someone else...
I'm contemplating having my records removed from the LDS church. I look back now in shame for not applying my critical thinking earlier. I was just too far gone as a convert from early teens in the 90s. Besides the real church history issues, one of the things I've realized is that Bishops and all the way up, these men in authority are no different from the average Joe. I've watched these men fail the members that have needed help repeatedly. They lack the relevant competencies to address serious issues. From abused women being told to stay in marriages where the spouses were physically beating them to poverty issues, health issues, addiction issues and giving multiple callings to members who are already over-burdened by life's issues and their actual jobs.
My blood is boiling. So in the next few years he has free rein to do whatever he wants. God forbid he touches anyone once he turns 18. Straight to jail!
The parents of this 13-year-old perpetrator should have taken way more responsibility. They should have searched throughout the U.S. for a place where this kid could be away from possible future victims and could get immediate therapy. Instead his parents kept taking him to church and activities!!!
There was a guy in my ward years ago who had been convicted of child rape. He served time in prison and was also on the sex offenders registry. He served in the nursery. I didn't find out for 2 years. I never let my kids go to nursery again. I feel guilty for not saying anything to anyone else but at the time I didn't want to cause any waves. So sad that I didn't have a stronger voice back then. There was also a missionary who tried to get my 17 year old daughter to sneak out and have sex with him. He wasn't sent home. He was transferred to the next city over. He was 24-25 years old.
In the state of Utah abusers have restrictions around places where children gather. Like nursery. Unfortunately, these restrictions are not put in the handbook but relayed by the Legals of the corp church. If they choose.
I’m still amazed that in todays world, how ill prepared the church is in dealing with these topics discussed throughout this interview. It feels like the church always leads from behind when it comes to societal issues.
I have to say this!::::: It infuriates me that everyone around them were trying to convince them that a “toddler/3yr.old” would not remember being molested…,,,, I’m here to say that my sister was molested when she was 2 and SHE REMEMBERS!!! And what happened to her was only ONE TIME and SHE REMEMBERS!! So it’s disgusting and revolting to me that those people were using that as a reason to rationalize his behavior and minimize what he actually did and minimize how it will affect his victims in the future…. It’s VERY IMPORTANT TO PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN after something bad happens and to stand up for them and to DO THE HARD THING cuz what happened to my sister was brushed under the rug and it damaged her FOR LIFE!!! When a child knows that their parents did everything in their power to protect them that will resonate with them and they will remember that their parents DID PROTECT them and did stand up for them… that is a bigger impact to the child and their future more than the actual event of abuse.. MY SISTER always felt like since nothing was ever done to her perpetrator that in her mind nobody cared, that they were more worried about protecting the perpetrator and his future more than hers she felt unloved and it reflected in the choices she made throughout her whole life, she became a severe drug addict and she became promiscuous because she hated herself cuz she felt like it was her fault that she had been molested … ALWAYS DO RIGHT BY YOUR CHILDREN!!! Even if it IS the hardest thing to do!!!
This is awful. So many victims. I blame the parents even more than the kid! No excuses, but he's 13 and his parents are not helping him overcome this terrible thing! They need to show him accountability! I'm not saying he's a victim, he's not, but my blood boils for the negligent parents! They should pay for how they delt with this. I have children. It would break my heart too if my boy would do this at any age, and even at the age of 13, I would hold him accountable and make sure the police was involved. I love my kids, adore them! But making excuses for them is the worst you can do. The church leaders acted unbelievably bad. My God. Hugs to victims and thanks for sharing this!
Future Josh Duggar! The sad fact is that juvenile sex offenders actually have a low rate of recidivism IF they get professional help! But some parents enable and deny the abuse and end up letting their children become monsters!!!!
This is still another unbelievable story. My complete sympathies to all of you as an ex Catholic. This is such a loving, gentle and kind podcast that I hate to be negative, but this actually became hard to watch with the continuous interrupting. I would love to have heard the husband get to finish a sentence. I do really appreciate the parents passion and taking action. I also very much appreciate you, John, for these stories. 1:06:06
It's so distressing that they were concerned that the abuser didn't feel like an outcast. Instead of getting him the intensive rehabilitation and monitoring he obviously needs, they are enabling him. Molesting children isn't a phase someone grows out of. They had a chance to get him the help he needs to prevent future victims. As he matures, his predation tactics will get more refined, harder to detect, and the power difference between him and his victims will grow. It's okay to make predators feel like outcasts from society. They should be! If you want to be part of society, you need to control or redirect those urges in a healthy way. What a valuable lesson that could have been for him. Instead, he was taught "anyone that whines about you assaulting them is an inconvenience we will make go away."
Not only that, but the parents apparently have issues with boundaries and seemed to dislike the policies in place to prevent adults from having too much power over children. This makes me wonder if the kid wasn't abused himself in the first place, and the behaviour had simply been normalized by the family. If so, the kid was in danger from his own family, and the younger children were also at risk--from him, from the parents, from reproducing that behaviour themselves.
That poor daughter, she probably came from an abused background and thought she would be safe and protected in a new family, then the perpetrator violated that trust all over again. I hope she’s doing well and healing ❤ and that’s ridiculous but not shocking no one from the church asked how your daughter was 😢
When a boy in our ward repeatedly sexually abused our daughter the Bishop basically said keep it quiet we don't want to divide the ward. We had to go to a different ward to not go to church with him and his family. We ultimately moved to get away from them.
Why do church types always seem to side with the wrong side? My high school best friend has been going to the same church her entire life. She brought her husband into that church. He emotionally abused her for years until she checked into a mental hospital because she was so messed up by his abuse. She divorced him and her church, who had known her her entire life, sided with him!
Год назад+5
I believe you 100%. I'm glad she I no longer with him and has you as a friend❤
patriarchal religions- which is pretty much all the largely known ones- will most commonly side with the man if he's following their rules, regardless of his wife's status.
Great story thank you both and M.S. so shocking. I'm sorry I know this is a passionate story, but I started to cringe everytime his wife interrupted him and sensed his frustration at times. ❤ I feel bad saying this 🤷♀️ like I said maybe it was passion of the story itself.
I don't think she was doing it to interrupt. I think there wasn't a clear story teller and they both wanted to share. But it was distracting to me because sentences were not finished or broken into many chunks.
I felt the same way. Understandably she is very angry and does not want any part of the story left out. Hopefully ,she doesnt always treat him this way.
I want to add ..yes they are very brave and the more voices who come out ,the quicker this type of abuse to all the victims and the parents who are also abused by the good ol boy system.
Thank you for shining a much needed light on this ugly subject! I'm a former mormon my local bishop didn't do a darn thing about some missionaries who stole from me. Also its been on local news a mormon who has been caught 3 times molesting boys in the church! I think finally the police are going to do something and hold him in jail on a 500,000 bond. This is in Redmond OR and its currently going on. I even called down to utah about the theft but not a frickin thing was done!
Wow as much as I am trying to heal from my childhood abuse. And the way it was just brushed under the rug. Thought it was just my story. I am 55 and steal healing from what happened to me and the way it was handled. And the fact that it was my brother and my other brother passed in March of 2020. So when my mom passes it will be him and I dealing with The trust. The ahoritey he still holds over me. It is a process. As I walked away from the church and he walks on water because he married in the temple and is the righteous one. When really he is not. Very hard at times. I steal an healing. But have no family support because we don't talk about that. It was DeWalt with in there eyes. It is very hard
The leaders want to keep things quiet so members don't lose faith in the church but the reality is if the leaders would jump right on it and get to the bottom of the situation and report to the police, the members would have RESPECT for them that if the situation were to occur with one of their children, they would be looked after. I worked in a situation where I had access to information. I found something out that was happening VERY close to my niece. I risked it, but I called and warned her only to NEVER let her girls be alone at the building at any time, in any situation- not even to go to the bathroom- until a point in the future when she definitely know it was over. I would not be able to live with myself if something happened. Adult men were assigned to monitor the halls at all times but the members didn't know what was going on or any details. Arrests were made, but details were never released nor parents asked if their children had had any encounters.
So shady! The church "abuse helpline" told the bishop that he "can not report to police." They purposely said it that manipulative way, rather than saying, "you may choose not to to report, or to report." Who says "You can 'not-report' something!?"
But the question is why would you want to stay when the whole church is built on many lies and deceits and abuses. The saying goes “a foolish man builds a house on sand instead of rock.” It was a deceiver that built the church so he could sleep with a lot of women and get money and praise and adoration. Now it’s at epic proportions. If he was alive now he would be worshipped as a God and that the problem, he’s not a God. Or Jesus or Jesus’s brother. I often wonder if the money will disappear or a large portion has disappeared to the prophets and past prophets pockets. And now I’m really angry I had to help feed my Mormon friends children were gave everything to their church and when they didn’t have food and had a baby and girls 3, 5 7 and 8 were told could they wait 3 days? They had no food, no formula and I immediately got them sacks and sacks of food, and if I were church members that gave everything I would file a class action law suit against them.
I need to say this, having worked with both perpetrators and survivors of sexual abuse (as a mental health professional). A 12-year-old who is molesting children is also a type of victim. It does not excuse his actions, of course, and there needs to be accountability - most certainly . . . and there are adults (including his parents) who need to be accountable. However the perpetrator gained the propensity to sexually abuse children, he most likely had to be taught by another perpetrator. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that children who have been abused are likely to become abusers. Only the reverse of this is true - that those who abuse were most likely abused themselves. I have visited the section of a juvenile detention center, where young perpetrators are housed. It was one of the saddest experiences of my life. I have experienced a lot of loss in my life, but seeing those kids just broke my heart. It reminded me - in a really harsh way - of how much child sexual abuse has occurred without it being addressed - or even acknowledged or consciously remembered. Thankfully much more gets addressed these days, much sooner than it did just one generation back. As horrific as it is that the children in these families had to experience this abuse, this couple’s daughter has a good chance of recovering well because her parents have not backed down from addressing this directly and going out of their way to protect others. The collective healing that needs to take place regarding sexual crimes is not possible without addressing the whole system.
This was sad all around. A 13 yo boy, most likely a victim of abuse, hurts another in the worst way. Its hard to hear a 13 yo being called an evil predator but I understand why. It sad.
The truth is that actual juvenile offenders actually have a low rate of recidivism IF they get help! However, like Josh Duggar and so many others, their parents enable or deny the abuse is happening so they never get help and it becomes something they know they can get away with.
There are some parallels to the case of Josh Dugger…when he was 13, he had touched girls inappropriately and it was covered up/swept under the rug…and he went on to commit serious sexual crimes as an adult.
This story has many shades of the IBLP.... among others the Josh Dugger Story... but the difference being he landed in jail for 12 1/2 yrs... and is not to be around children... but supervised around his own... when they come to visit... He will still have children at home when he gets out as well... I don’t understand how sooo many religious sects allow all the coverup tactics ... and states don’t seem to do anything abt it!!! And the parents as well... It’s all abt money and protecting their “good name”... in many cases it’s already trashed... Thank you Dr John and Margie...for all the hard work y’all do to enlighten those of us who may have suspected all the hideous crimes that go on .. but to hear all the real life stuff... gut wrenching... But needs to be said... 🙏💕
These people are so disceptive. It’s so unsettling. We’ve all been victims to this system. I can see the little me in it as a young girl, teen, young mom….We need to open our eyes?
Something similar occurred in my ward. The Bishop at the 5he was hoping to get released and wasn’t willing to do anything . The parents were never called in nor was the youth. Unfortunately it’s not something the church knows how to deal with.
I can't tell you how many times I yelled out, "OH MY GOD!!!!!" in this episode!
Truly he is just and loving
Me too!!!
Truly insane
Right? I just couldn’t fathom the amount of corruption, lies, and ABUSE that is rife in the church. Plus the victims kept coming, and coming, and coming… which makes me believe the kid abuser was probably abused himself. There’s likely a lonnng, hidden chain of abuse in the church that has been stifled and smothered. I don’t know if you’re a former Mormon, but I worry about kids in nursery. It would be the perfect place for kids to be abused, kids who can’t speak up or don’t know what’s going on.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a victim to ruin a predator’s life. The predator ruined THEIR OWN life.
Amen
🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾
Thank you for saying this!!
The perpetrator can be placed in a treatment facility. This is what SHOULD happen if the abuse is reported to Child and Family Services and they deem he is a threat to other children, which he obviously was. And yes, when children receive treatment, there is a good chance for a positive outcome. Once they become adults a positive outcome is less likely.
The predator ruins the victim's life. The Mormon church must beware. Pride has entered in..
My friend's husband is a police officer and when he was "called" as one of my ex-husband's counselors, she told me that she was so glad that her husband would never get called as bishop because he was a mandatory reporter. It felt weird when she told me that, but now I realize in hindsight how absolutely alarming that statement was.
So much rage throughout this episode, and I’m just an outsider. Mad respect for having the courage to speak out despite some of the most egregious (communal) gaslighting I’ve ever heard of.
Just another outsider praising these people for speaking out and seeking truth.
The integrity of this couple is inspiring, powerful testimony!
This was a fantastic episode, and an exposé into how members of the Church become victims yet again by being gaslighted and bullied to continue to allow abuse in the Church and the protection of the institution at all costs.
Ashley was so reserved in part 1 but MAMA BEAR came out, as she should! tragic that it had to happen, but I’m proud these parents fought for their children.
It makes me super mad to hear about "daughter too young to remember" - I was the same age when sexual abuse happened, it was for a longer period of time though (I was 3-4), and it was really difficult to cope with the half-memories I have but that I could and cannot properly grasp. Because memory is so foggy, and nothing is clear cut, it is complicated to near-impossible to think it through and come to a conclusion, it cannot be rationalised. This kind of early childhood memory can be very traumatizing, because it is a dark and shapeshifting threat, it caused me a lot of pain in my life. It took so much therapy, I am 40 now and a happy human, but I felt for a long time like I never had a childhood and like I never had any happy childhood memories, because everything was overshadowed by weird feelings of shame and guilt, there was only a sense of total loss of control over my life because of the lack of understanding what had happened to me, I just felt like a "rotten fruit" ;(
I am SO sorry. You did NOT deserve that- NOBODY does. You deserve to be safe and feel safe. I’m glad you went to therapy and it helped you.
Agree something so horrific will at some point remember what happened
This was such a terrible experience. Thank you for sharing it because maybe one day, maybe one TBM will be pricked in their heart to discover the human cost to SA and the criminal enterprises that keep it going generation after generation.
Hey y'all, thanks for all your kind words :) they mean a lot to me :)
I forgot to mention what helped me more than any therapy: transparency. Therapy kept me alive, but I didn't get better by it before I acknowledged and openly talked about what happened, so I was able to reframe the experience in a years-/decade-long process. This was absolute key for me.
@@kellyreilly-robinson2130 @Kelly Reilly-Robinson one day at a time, until one is possible to see a more bright future ahead. Good on you, Kelly :) So good to know there are others that made it through ok, in the end :D life can be so good
What you said about this being an epidemic of sexual shame was so poignant. It has affected so many lives, mine included. I developed DID as a result of my experiences. I have a daughter that came out as a lesbian after being married in the temple. trying to reconcile everything in my head while still being a good Mormon finally came to a point where I thought I was going to explode. I have always hated church yet have served in many big callings and thought I was unusual in the fact that I dreaded church every single week my whole life. And then I had a member of the stake presidency shatter my view of priesthood holders. That is a story that makes just about anyone pry when I talk about it. I was so furious that I cried for hours. I also have a friend whose bishop abused her son, and several other boys in the ward. Yet when they went to trial, most of the ward sided with him. And even though he was convicted and sentenced, they all still sided with him. Incredible that here these boys were brave enough to finally stand up and yet they are being shamed and ostracized for doing so. I never realized what a toxic place being in the church was. It feels so freeing to have an extra day of the week all to myself, and not have to answer to anyone or be in charge of anything. I had to divorce my husband in order to get that peace, but it was worth it.
In the company of narcissists the victims are always to blame.
Jared and Ashley are the kind of parents all kids deserve. Thank you for fighting for your daughter and also for sharing your story.
One of the boundaries I had a hard time learning because of my mormon upbringing is that I am not responsible to keep other people's secrets or to protect their reputations. IMO that is misplaced loyalty. In addition, if I know of a person who is sexually abusing others or breaking the law and I don't tell everyone I know that might be affected, I am in part responsible for future victims. IMO Radical honesty is the best policy. I believe that secrets, lies and misrepresentations of the truth are the friend of abusers and Jared was spot on in saying that for many organizations including the LDS church the goal of a helpline is often not to help the victims but to head off damage to the organization's reputation. How is the kid supposed to learn how serious what he did was unless he is faced with serious real world consequences such as everyone knowing and treating him accordingly? Another very courageous discussion. Wishing Jared and Ashley joy and more love on their journey.
I’ve been watching this episode all day. I get the feeling this was hard for John. Having the strength to platform all these stories is a blessing. If you need to take a break John please do many people here want to see you to continue to thrive and be able to give a voice to good people like the jared and Ashley ❤
This story was a huge revelation on my own situation. When I was 8 my dad passed away, and a year later my mom had us join the LDS church after being offered comfort by missionaries promising that their way meant that she could live with him again after this life. However, this decision ended up being one of the worst things that ever happened to me as a child. During that first year, at the age of 9 and still lost and grieving over my father, while spending time after school at the house of an elder who's wife ran a form of childcare, I was SA'd by that elder. Truthfully I was so disassociated for most of the whole thing, I don't remember all the of specific details, I remember how it started, I remember certain things taking place, I remember talking to the police and not being very forthcoming with the extent of what actually happened (something I still beat myself up over,) and most importantly - I remember talking to someone else. Who asked me over and over and over again if I forgave him, and how important forgiveness was, and I just wanted them to shut up, so I finally said yes I forgive him. As an SA'd disassociated 9 year old, as if that meant something. I spent the rest of my life until today thinking that this was something to do with a legal settlement or something, but I was wrong.
When you talked about the whole theme of forgiveness being pressured onto you after what happened to your daughter, I just felt this pit in the bottom of my stomach. It seemed related. So I did something I haven't done in 30 years since this happened and spoke with my mother about the specifics of how she handled it. She's generally pretty reluctant to speak about it at all, but something was different this time. She relayed the process to me, and no where in there was me speaking to anyone else about forgiveness, there was no legal settlement, just me talking to the police. It certainly wouldn't have been appropriate for someone with the police to ask such a thing, and if I had been my therapist at the time, I feel like I would have remembered it better, because I spent a lot of time with them. I told her about this memory and she got so mad, because she had the same thought I did: someone with the church spoke to me about forgiveness, and not only that, if this is true then they also did so totally without my mom's awareness or consent on the matter.
Nothing really happened to the guy at the time. I know stories about how he was abusing his own daughters as well, and that somehow his wife decided to stay with him. We moved wards, but they stayed right where they were, and his wife kept running childcare out of her home. I was given a letter of "apology" clearly written by the dude's lawyer that I've hung onto this whole time. I've always been kicking myself for not speaking up more at the time, but I have to show myself forgiveness, I was a very young child who went through a whole lot of traumatizing crap in a very short amount of time. I may finally have the piece of the puzzle that leads me to pressing charges with that letter in hand. I truly believe this helped me realize that my situation was purposefully covered up and swept under the rug by the church. So, truly, thank you for sharing your stories and helping to pull out some of my repressed memories. I am reaching out to a lawyer now.
Edit: reading through some of the comments now and WOW, yeah, the whole "church intervention on the victim" thing seems to be a REALLY common theme. Only strengthens what I believe happened. I am so livid.
I’m so sorry this happened to you
As a victim myself, I urge you to press charges. Why? Not for vengeance, but for closure for yourself. For that little girl you once were that was robbed of her innocence by an adult. For all those other victims and possible future victims. You have the key to turn that lock. You will feel so liberated. Not that it will ever be forgotten, but he won't have that hold of you anymore. Sending you healing vibes and all the courage you need to do whatever is best for you.
@@mcjnegrete8203 thank you so much ❤️
@@mcjnegrete8203unfortunately the statute of limitations likely has run out for this lady.
I am so sorry that this happened to you and I’m so sorry about the way that it was handled by the people around you. Please be kinder to your young self. You did the best that you could at the time
I'm glad that John said the LDS church is a harbour for paedos. I've often thought that, but never said it.
Jared and Ashley are inspirational. They refused to let go. Knowing that the leaders are fully aware of the problem within the church is sickening. They care about money more than they care about the children.
Damn right that it's a safe space (if not a breeding ground) for abusive monsters. There's a reason Ted Bundy took an interest in the church, however briefly. It's like that quote that says "If you welcome both wolves and sheep all you'll end up with is wolves." The smart or the lucky sheep will head for safety elsewhere and any that are left will be eaten.
I was in the primary presidency in my ward in Oregon and we were told there was a sexual offender in the ward but they wouldn't tell us who it was because they didn't want him to feel unwelcome. From that point on I had extreme anxiety so I was always checking in on classrooms, bathrooms, even the stage to make sure the primary kids were safe.
That is horrible and totally not ok. So sorry you had to deal with that!
i love when mama bear kicks in. we fight for our kids. you go Ashley.
I'm wondering why zero discussions or altercations with the abuser himself came up in this storyline. It sounds to me like he was being treated with "kid gloves" by absolutely everybody. This kid sounds like he's incapable of remorse and somehow no one in his life or the wider community were trying to find out why.
This two parter is what Mormon Stories does best. Allowing the interviewees to share just enough to enlighten. Expertly guided by JD.
I think this was one of the most powerful Mormon Stories I have heard to date.
I know this couple and I am blown away.
Their story has so many similarities to the local sex abuse case here in Kasson, Minnesota where LDS Church leaders defended a registered sex offender in court. Thank you Jared and Ashley for your courage and vulnerability in sharing your stories!
Hugs to John and his crew for giving people a platform to speak out for change. I am not a Morman, but I have had issues with organized religion. I think we need to coin a term "high demand organizations." This enslave people too.
I agree. I'm not Mormon either but resonate with so much of what's discussed
It doesn't even have to be a religious organization to cause this much hurt. I see parallels in workplaces, HOAs, etc.
Domestic abuse, narcissistic abuse would fall in the same category, I think. Like John said, the abuser only cares about protecting/ preserving authority.
Can confirm that this is the typical church response. Similar thing happened in my east coast ward. Hide it, cover it up, don’t tell the mom as soon as you know, let the abuser keep attending church, don’t tell the majority of ward members.
@@bestoffriends703 a frigging shame: why can abusers even cling to their authority? Children are weak and vulnerable, that's why.
“I’m sorry you feel that way!” Oh my dear god! I’m on minute 42 when the email was sent to everyone in the ward. My blood is boiling for them. Wow.
I wish the wife would stop interrupting her husband. It's very disrupting
Condescending af. 🤦🏻
Yes. When she talks over others and talks so fast it is hard to understand what she is saying.
@@maureenlewis4300 I think she is just trying to speed up the story. Her husband's narrative is very slow.
Gaslighting
I love and appreciate Margie’s sincere and thoughtful comments and questions.
Reminds me of the Dugger son that is now in prison for SA and child porn. It all started when he was a kid and their church and his own family hid it all with him never receiving any real consequences until he was an adult.
I'm 66 years old and was molested by my uncle when I was 3. He was 13. I never forgot about it. I'm not sure how it actually affected me if at all, but I remember it to this day.
I’m sorry that happened to your 3 year old self.
My daughter told me at 3 1/2 years old that her father, my X husband , had and still was molesting her. I reported to DCFS and the state of Utah sent an unqualified person to interview my daughter but sent her to her dad's house and left a note about the investigation in his door. He called and found out he was being investigated and from there forward threatened our daughter that he was going to murder me and blow up our house killing her brothers and grandma. I was an active member married to my second husband from El Salvador. My daughter told us about the threats and more about her molestation. We then caught her brothers doing and speaking sexually to each other. I went to our bishop with our info and witness info of their step dad, my second husband, my mom and myself. But because 2 of us weren't priesthood holders that the church could do nothing until the state or courts did something. My X came to our oldest son's baptism and demanded to Baptize him. I was devastated because my bishop knew of the molestation. My bishop told me because my X had a current temple recommend and his bishop said he's worthy then my X can baptize or eldest son. We had to sit thru the baptism knowing the church would do nothing. I reported prior to his bishop and nothing was done. My X even was the Scout master of his ward.. and was an elementary school teacher. The church covering this up, never reporting and even allowing my X to Baptize, have a temple recommend and scout master. All of this was the final straw... I left the church. It ended my second marriage the stress and my second husband after talking to the bishop minimized the abuse and told me maybe the kids are lying. The LDS church participated in destroying my kid's lives. I have so much anger about this. I devoted so much of my life and money to the church and they protect sexual abusers. Years later I owned a magazine for single moms and was one of the top advocates for single moms in Utah. This is a huge problem in the LDS church. There are so many stories I've advocated for. Interesting, my magazine, Synergy for Single Moms, was the first magazine the church allowed to be distributed in church employment offices.
😳😡🤢
I’m feeling for you. Devastating! Gross. My heart aches for you and your family. I’m so sorry!
Why are you still members of this LDS church?
@@walkbyfaith2874 Because it’s my birthright
@@walkbyfaith2874 I'm not a member anymore. It took years and me threatening legal actions against the LDS church to get my name removed from the church records.
I would have reported this myself immediately. If my child had been abused I would not have waited on no one else to report it.
I’m really horrified for the daughter of the General Authority who was molested. Her father talking about that and making decisions about forgiveness. He does not have that right to decide for others. I am also horrified that this former foster child who had already experienced so much trauma and was further traumatized can have what happened to her swept away since she is so young. Nobody can speculate on how it is for her and to insist forgiveness is the most important ideal. Barf!
Jared and Ashley are amazing people!!! At the end when Jared said the most important thing for home was for him to be true to what he knows to be true, that he is willing to chance loosing money and friends and prestige, ALL of this to be true, was so powerful!!! So many people are too afraid. But the truth will set you free Jared and Ashley ❤
John, the "ad" for MS is terrific. Wonderful idea to share the mission of MS & demographics of viewers. When we think of how overwhelmed our mental health system is, MS goes a long way to helping people understand & recover from high demand groups & institutions. Kudos for this positive, honest explanation. We all need honest information more than ever.
Me too .. a survivor of childhood sexual abuse at the Mormon Chapel. Thank you so much for this incredible powerful story.
Thanks for your work John, it's helped me understand my dysfunctional TBM family's mind set.
This same thing happened to our family when my friend got groomed and abused by a high priest at the age of 14. Us kids tried to warn our other friends about him, we were told to keep our mouths shut. Our bishop told our parents that if anyone talks about it to anybody else in the ward again, our parent's temple recommends would be taken away and their membership would "be in question". So we were basically forced to keep our mouths shut, while the pedophile pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.
Of course, I never stopped telling everyone about the dangerous CONVICTED pedophile named Hector Amezcua, who has a record in Minnesota, but has since moved to California in the Buena Vista area. If anyone knows this man, PLEASE KEEP ALL CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS MAN!!
One thing that must be brought up is most kids that are molesting are more than likely victims of molestation themselves. I think the parents or friends of the family - the adults- of this boy should be investigated. This could be why the adults are covering this up. Maybe they're the perpetuator of this boy. This is a serious thing and it's common in the LDS church. This boy's actions point to him being a victim as well - by an adult. His father should be questioned first and sounds like the stake president who's friends with the boys family should be investigated.
Exactly my thoughts- especially with 2 parents in positions of authority both in the church and in education
I kept thinking this though the whole episode. This kid learned his behavior from someone. I kept hoping they would point this out. Also, in my experience, priesthood holders are just a big boy's club aimed at protecting each other. So happy to hear this mentioned.
I wish this were brought up. It's easy to claim some people are just "born" predators and are irredeemable, but the ugly truth is that most children who abuse other children are survivors themselves, and simply naming and shaming them without wondering what might have happened to them is helping perpetuate the cycle. Note: I am not implying that survivors of child abuse are inherently going to become abusers, nor that adult abusers have been through sexual abuse. Rather, *children* who abuse tend to have gone through something themselves and they need to be separated from their victims and other children AND given support in order to heal and avoid becoming adult offenders as well.
@@elilass8410 I agree with you 100%
I just listened to this and I honestly think they were willingly giving their son access to children knowing what he was going to do. They were all in on it. They all liked the power.
This story just confirmed my distrust in the LDS. Atrocious behavior by these disgusting men in positions of authority. Ty for sharing ur story.
Jared and Ashley are the heroes in this story. Thank you, Jared and Ashley.
Please please please get counseling support for this baby. My parent was abused as a preschool child. They had nightmares for years and was a teen before anyone told them what had happened. Childern do remember that bad things happened even when they don't have words for it.
Church preaches that we should be honest in our dealings, yet is so evasive and is always hiding terrible things.
Jared's ability to survive and thrive despite the church is amazing.
I dont understand why the focus was on this kid's "repentance" and not on getting him specialized therapy right away to make sure he stops doing this! That is alarming.
These guys are so brave I can’t even imagine the toxic crap they have been dealing with!
this kid has fine tuned his predatory behavior , its very scary how he will be when he is fully adult
So true. People that let him get away with this arent helping him. They are making him more dangerous
Especially given the EXEMPLARS he calls mama & daddy
Big virtual hugs to Mom and Dad, and their child. I can’t imagine how this must have felt, but their strength in this fight is so admirable. ❤️
“Blackballing” the victims is a common theme throughout the church.
I don't generally listen to a lot of podcasts, but this one rang very close to home. Thank you for speaking up Jared and Ashley. It can be such a scary thing to do especially when you know you're just going to get a lot of push back and rejection when/if you do..
Jared, I admire that you have come to peace with where you are in life. You also acknowledge that other's may not come to the same conclusion as you have which, you say, is also their right. (You have shown a lot of respect for your wife in where she is at in her journey as it appears, you and her might be in a little different places). I hope that your family can heal and find peace and love whereever life's road takes you.
i so feel for you, yes it is so hard to walk away from your faith even when it is justified, walking away from what you have always known feels like walking into an abyss. so sorry for what you experienced also inspired by you guys for sticking up for your kids and holding feet to the fire. 🙏
To everyone who appears on MS with their personal stories: YOU are HEARD!
Abusers view people as objects. "They won't remember it" is an assurance that the object won't have the wherewithal to inform on you later.
Wow!!! Very powerful!!! I have so much respect for Jared confronting years of indoctrination and choosing his own truth and principles. Would love to hear more from them. ❤️❤️❤️
We went through similar situation but different religion. It just about destroyed us as a family but thank goodness several years later we came out ok. My daughter is the strongest most loving human I know and is well adjusted adult who helps autistic children. Evil never wins even when it seems it may.
Unbelievable story. Thank you for your honesty
The detail makes it believable. Along with corroborating "testimony" from others.
The depth and pervasiveness of excuse making for abuse is horrifying.
As someone who was m*lested as a baby and only found out about the abuse a few months ago (I’m almost 25), our bodies remember. When I finally found out, everything made sense. Had I been talked to about the abuse as a younger person, I would not have lived with sexual shame for so long. What IS a shame is finding out that family members still protect my abuser and he’s likely still offending. My hands are completely tied because he lives in another country.
Thank you for raising hell for your child and the other families. It brings me peace
The body certainly does remember. And for your having to learn of it so long after, ... But at least you did & if that helps things make sense, hopefully that will lead you further. I very often wonder if there is a child on the planet who reaches 10 w/o bring violated. Truly, I believe this is the essential Biblical "wound," the particular shame sexual sensation immediately produces. As a wee child no one has any prior reference to identify what has happened, let alone SHAME in it. 🎶🎶🎶 for you
@Jared82 thank you so much, Jared 🫶🏼
I feel that the real reason The Church protects the abusers is because the abusers are part of their families. My personal experience regarding sex abuse is in my own family with a sibling. He was protected by my mother and still is because- Priesthood holder. That was the 1970's and '80s. Now my brother has served time in prison in Utah and Washington state for abusing multiple children and is on parole after being released last year. My sibling who was his victim is bringing charges against him and I stand with that victim. I am sure things are about to get ugly in the family with more time in court
Sex abuse is pervasive in every corner of the globe and in every kind of communal organization. We must not let shame prevent us from speaking up. I care nothing about the reputation of The Church or the supposed power of the Priesthood. I appreciate that this family has spoken up here. Everybody please join me in speaking freely about the crimes against victims
Brave parents! I hope this causes awareness regarding the matter and prevents future incidents.
The times “WHAT THE F**K?!!” entered my mind during this episode = one hundred thousand million trillion.
Okay, maybe a slight exaggeration, but seriously, what the f**k?!!!?!!! This is so seriously messed up in so many ways.
Is anyone looking into the perpetrator’s family to see if someone is/has abused this kid? This doesn’t usually just “pop up.” He’s learned this behavior somewhere
Actually you can have predatory sexually deviant children who have not been abused. It’s not common but it’s possible.
@@slconley You can, but often children who've abuse other children have themselves been victims of sexual abuse, and it's worth looking into in order to both help these kids never offend again AND protect the younger children in the family.
This brings me back to my high school days when my mentally handicapped brother was raped by four priests. Nothing was done. All four went on missions etc.
and my own parents made up some excuse as to why my brother was catatonic. This has ruined my brother for life.
Thats horrible. Your poor brother
That is vile. I am so sorry.
A child's mind stores memories of events such as these. They can come to the surface at any time. Too young to remember is a sad sad excuse to not let the victim be heard and justice done
Thankyou Jared and Ashley for your courage in sharing your painful story!
I have several experiences in my family of the church covering up abuse. They church will go to any length to cover up abuse, even go as far as getting the child to falsely accuse someone else...
I'm contemplating having my records removed from the LDS church. I look back now in shame for not applying my critical thinking earlier. I was just too far gone as a convert from early teens in the 90s. Besides the real church history issues, one of the things I've realized is that Bishops and all the way up, these men in authority are no different from the average Joe. I've watched these men fail the members that have needed help repeatedly. They lack the relevant competencies to address serious issues. From abused women being told to stay in marriages where the spouses were physically beating them to poverty issues, health issues, addiction issues and giving multiple callings to members who are already over-burdened by life's issues and their actual jobs.
My dad was a church lawyer and a partner for kirton McCONKIE and this episode just PISSED me off like nothing else
My blood is boiling. So in the next few years he has free rein to do whatever he wants. God forbid he touches anyone once he turns 18. Straight to jail!
The whole story strongly suggests he will have to reach Ted Bundy level before someone finds him out succeeds in justice
The parents of this 13-year-old perpetrator should have taken way more responsibility. They should have searched throughout the U.S. for a place where this kid could be away from possible future victims and could get immediate therapy. Instead his parents kept taking him to church and activities!!!
And the church should have stepped in if the parents weren’t proactive. They shouldn’t have to move anywhere.
There was a guy in my ward years ago who had been convicted of child rape. He served time in prison and was also on the sex offenders registry. He served in the nursery. I didn't find out for 2 years. I never let my kids go to nursery again. I feel guilty for not saying anything to anyone else but at the time I didn't want to cause any waves. So sad that I didn't have a stronger voice back then.
There was also a missionary who tried to get my 17 year old daughter to sneak out and have sex with him. He wasn't sent home. He was transferred to the next city over. He was 24-25 years old.
In the state of Utah abusers have restrictions around places where children gather. Like nursery. Unfortunately, these restrictions are not put in the handbook but relayed by the Legals of the corp church. If they choose.
I admire them both for their courage - especially Jared. There needs to be consequences for the “church” trying to sweep these things under the rug!
I’m still amazed that in todays world, how ill prepared the church is in dealing with these topics discussed throughout this interview. It feels like the church always leads from behind when it comes to societal issues.
it does lead from behind. it's willfully ignorant because to be more accountable would mean men have to be held responsible.
I have to say this!::::: It infuriates me that everyone around them were trying to convince them that a “toddler/3yr.old” would not remember being molested…,,,, I’m here to say that my sister was molested when she was 2 and SHE REMEMBERS!!! And what happened to her was only ONE TIME and SHE REMEMBERS!! So it’s disgusting and revolting to me that those people were using that as a reason to rationalize his behavior and minimize what he actually did and minimize how it will affect his victims in the future…. It’s VERY IMPORTANT TO PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN after something bad happens and to stand up for them and to DO THE HARD THING cuz what happened to my sister was brushed under the rug and it damaged her FOR LIFE!!! When a child knows that their parents did everything in their power to protect them that will resonate with them and they will remember that their parents DID PROTECT them and did stand up for them… that is a bigger impact to the child and their future more than the actual event of abuse.. MY SISTER always felt like since nothing was ever done to her perpetrator that in her mind nobody cared, that they were more worried about protecting the perpetrator and his future more than hers she felt unloved and it reflected in the choices she made throughout her whole life, she became a severe drug addict and she became promiscuous because she hated herself cuz she felt like it was her fault that she had been molested … ALWAYS DO RIGHT BY YOUR CHILDREN!!! Even if it IS the hardest thing to do!!!
This is awful. So many victims. I blame the parents even more than the kid! No excuses, but he's 13 and his parents are not helping him overcome this terrible thing! They need to show him accountability! I'm not saying he's a victim, he's not, but my blood boils for the negligent parents! They should pay for how they delt with this. I have children. It would break my heart too if my boy would do this at any age, and even at the age of 13, I would hold him accountable and make sure the police was involved. I love my kids, adore them! But making excuses for them is the worst you can do.
The church leaders acted unbelievably bad. My God. Hugs to victims and thanks for sharing this!
Future Josh Duggar! The sad fact is that juvenile sex offenders actually have a low rate of recidivism IF they get professional help! But some parents enable and deny the abuse and end up letting their children become monsters!!!!
This is still another unbelievable story. My complete sympathies to all of you as an ex Catholic.
This is such a loving, gentle and kind podcast that I hate to be negative, but this actually became hard to watch with the continuous interrupting. I would love to have heard the husband get to finish a sentence.
I do really appreciate the parents passion and taking action. I also very much appreciate you, John, for these stories. 1:06:06
It's so distressing that they were concerned that the abuser didn't feel like an outcast. Instead of getting him the intensive rehabilitation and monitoring he obviously needs, they are enabling him. Molesting children isn't a phase someone grows out of. They had a chance to get him the help he needs to prevent future victims. As he matures, his predation tactics will get more refined, harder to detect, and the power difference between him and his victims will grow. It's okay to make predators feel like outcasts from society. They should be! If you want to be part of society, you need to control or redirect those urges in a healthy way. What a valuable lesson that could have been for him. Instead, he was taught "anyone that whines about you assaulting them is an inconvenience we will make go away."
Not only that, but the parents apparently have issues with boundaries and seemed to dislike the policies in place to prevent adults from having too much power over children. This makes me wonder if the kid wasn't abused himself in the first place, and the behaviour had simply been normalized by the family. If so, the kid was in danger from his own family, and the younger children were also at risk--from him, from the parents, from reproducing that behaviour themselves.
Horrifying.
Thank you for this interview.
How and When will children be protected.?
Thank you so much for being so vulnerable and telling your story!! Thank you for helping put pressure on tscc!!
That poor daughter, she probably came from an abused background and thought she would be safe and protected in a new family, then the perpetrator violated that trust all over again. I hope she’s doing well and healing ❤ and that’s ridiculous but not shocking no one from the church asked how your daughter was 😢
Wow, hard realisations to come to but I'm glad you can now both experience calmness of spirit as well as a fire to share this story.
When a boy in our ward repeatedly sexually abused our daughter the Bishop basically said keep it quiet we don't want to divide the ward. We had to go to a different ward to not go to church with him and his family. We ultimately moved to get away from them.
My first thought was, what has happened to the 13yr old abuser to BECOME this abuser.
Thank you for sharing this topic this type of disclosure is very much needed
This is true…I’ve been around them all long time and so many events get swept under the rug. The Enoch ward is the worst!
Why do church types always seem to side with the wrong side? My high school best friend has been going to the same church her entire life. She brought her husband into that church. He emotionally abused her for years until she checked into a mental hospital because she was so messed up by his abuse. She divorced him and her church, who had known her her entire life, sided with him!
I believe you 100%. I'm glad she I no longer with him and has you as a friend❤
That happens often
patriarchal religions- which is pretty much all the largely known ones- will most commonly side with the man if he's following their rules, regardless of his wife's status.
Great story thank you both and M.S. so shocking. I'm sorry I know this is a passionate story, but I started to cringe everytime his wife interrupted him and sensed his frustration at times. ❤ I feel bad saying this 🤷♀️ like I said maybe it was passion of the story itself.
I don't think she was doing it to interrupt. I think there wasn't a clear story teller and they both wanted to share. But it was distracting to me because sentences were not finished or broken into many chunks.
@@StephRivera Thank you, yes! I felt a bit frustrated when sentences were not finished. This doesn't take away from the importance of the interview!
I felt the same way. Understandably she is very angry and does not want any part of the story left out.
Hopefully ,she doesnt always treat him this way.
I want to add ..yes they are very brave and the more voices who come out ,the quicker this type of abuse to all the victims and the parents who are also abused by the good ol boy system.
Thank you for shining a much needed light on this ugly subject! I'm a former mormon my local bishop didn't do a darn thing about some missionaries who stole from me. Also its been on local news a mormon who has been caught 3 times molesting boys in the church! I think finally the police are going to do something and hold him in jail on a 500,000 bond. This is in Redmond OR and its currently going on. I even called down to utah about the theft but not a frickin thing was done!
How many times have we been out to dinner? None times. LOL.
Sounds like when they would move priests to another parish to keep it quiet.
Wow as much as I am trying to heal from my childhood abuse. And the way it was just brushed under the rug. Thought it was just my story. I am 55 and steal healing from what happened to me and the way it was handled. And the fact that it was my brother and my other brother passed in March of 2020. So when my mom passes it will be him and I dealing with The trust. The ahoritey he still holds over me. It is a process. As I walked away from the church and he walks on water because he married in the temple and is the righteous one. When really he is not. Very hard at times. I steal an healing. But have no family support because we don't talk about that. It was DeWalt with in there eyes. It is very hard
The leaders want to keep things quiet so members don't lose faith in the church but the reality is if the leaders would jump right on it and get to the bottom of the situation and report to the police, the members would have RESPECT for them that if the situation were to occur with one of their children, they would be looked after. I worked in a situation where I had access to information. I found something out that was happening VERY close to my niece. I risked it, but I called and warned her only to NEVER let her girls be alone at the building at any time, in any situation- not even to go to the bathroom- until a point in the future when she definitely know it was over. I would not be able to live with myself if something happened. Adult men were assigned to monitor the halls at all times but the members didn't know what was going on or any details. Arrests were made, but details were never released nor parents asked if their children had had any encounters.
So shady! The church "abuse helpline" told the bishop that he "can not report to police." They purposely said it that manipulative way, rather than saying, "you may choose not to to report, or to report." Who says "You can 'not-report' something!?"
1:42:07 "urgh, these annoying victims. My poor baby-toucher is so sad and friendless because of them".
But the question is why would you want to stay when the whole church is built on many lies and deceits and abuses. The saying goes “a foolish man builds a house on sand instead of rock.” It was a deceiver that built the church so he could sleep with a lot of women and get money and praise and adoration. Now it’s at epic proportions. If he was alive now he would be worshipped as a God and that the problem, he’s not a God. Or Jesus or Jesus’s brother. I often wonder if the money will disappear or a large portion has disappeared to the prophets and past prophets pockets. And now I’m really angry I had to help feed my Mormon friends children were gave everything to their church and when they didn’t have food and had a baby and girls 3, 5 7 and 8 were told could they wait 3 days? They had no food, no formula and I immediately got them sacks and sacks of food, and if I were church members that gave everything I would file a class action law suit against them.
That surprises me. John is a great, well educated, kind and loving individual.
Thank you and God Bless. Jean
"I'm not sure how I screwed up but I know I'm a screw-up" hit the nail on the head right there
The Betrayl Bond, Patrick Carnes expiains why people stay in abusive relationships even with organization, or Nations for that matter.
I need to say this, having worked with both perpetrators and survivors of sexual abuse (as a mental health professional). A 12-year-old who is molesting children is also a type of victim. It does not excuse his actions, of course, and there needs to be accountability - most certainly . . . and there are adults (including his parents) who need to be accountable. However the perpetrator gained the propensity to sexually abuse children, he most likely had to be taught by another perpetrator. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that children who have been abused are likely to become abusers. Only the reverse of this is true - that those who abuse were most likely abused themselves.
I have visited the section of a juvenile detention center, where young perpetrators are housed. It was one of the saddest experiences of my life. I have experienced a lot of loss in my life, but seeing those kids just broke my heart. It reminded me - in a really harsh way - of how much child sexual abuse has occurred without it being addressed - or even acknowledged or consciously remembered.
Thankfully much more gets addressed these days, much sooner than it did just one generation back. As horrific as it is that the children in these families had to experience this abuse, this couple’s daughter has a good chance of recovering well because her parents have not backed down from addressing this directly and going out of their way to protect others.
The collective healing that needs to take place regarding sexual crimes is not possible without addressing the whole system.
I hope they left the church. Still waiting for their story to turn to how they deconstructed 😳😳 I hope!
This was sad all around. A 13 yo boy, most likely a victim of abuse, hurts another in the worst way. Its hard to hear a 13 yo being called an evil predator but I understand why. It sad.
The truth is that actual juvenile offenders actually have a low rate of recidivism IF they get help! However, like Josh Duggar and so many others, their parents enable or deny the abuse is happening so they never get help and it becomes something they know they can get away with.
There are some parallels to the case of Josh Dugger…when he was 13, he had touched girls inappropriately and it was covered up/swept under the rug…and he went on to commit serious sexual crimes as an adult.
This story has many shades of the IBLP.... among others the Josh Dugger Story... but the difference being he landed in jail for 12 1/2 yrs... and is not to be around children... but supervised around his own... when they come to visit... He will still have children at home when he gets out as well... I don’t understand how sooo many religious sects allow all the coverup tactics ... and states don’t seem to do anything abt it!!! And the parents as well... It’s all abt money and protecting their “good name”... in many cases it’s already trashed... Thank you Dr John and Margie...for all the hard work y’all do to enlighten those of us who may have suspected all the hideous crimes that go on .. but to hear all the real life stuff... gut wrenching... But needs to be said... 🙏💕
These people are so disceptive. It’s so unsettling. We’ve all been victims to this system. I can see the little me in it as a young girl, teen, young mom….We need to open our eyes?
Something similar occurred in my ward. The Bishop at the 5he was hoping to get released and wasn’t willing to do anything . The parents were never called in nor was the youth. Unfortunately it’s not something the church knows how to deal with.