How to 'deal' with Powergamers in D&D
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
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► INDEX
0:00 Intro
1:28 Reverse AC skit
2:00 How to challenge Powergamers
3:41 Powergaming a puzzle skit
4:18 More ways of challenging Powergamers
5:13 Body-swapping skit
6:03 Allowing your players to shine
6:50 Wandering Tavern
8:03 Conclusion
Music from Epidemic Sound 
Игры
I like the yous that talk to each other, but its nice to see more of the you that talks to the camera.
It's nice actually addressing you for once
So nice to see a familiar eldritch being in the comments.
"99% of the time, any issues within your d&d playgroup can be resolved with a conversation"
True in gaming and true in life
Or an Eldritch Blast
2:00
This reminds me of a player who had managed to get their AC to a 20 at level two, and kept on talking about how immune to everything they were.
First fight of the campaign, I turn to them and say something like “and the (insert creature that I forgot) is going to attempt to attack you, so-“ player instantly interrupts, saying “let me guess, a miss?”
The look of horror on their face when I told them to make a dexterity saving throw was 100% worth it.
the problem begins when the power level is more of "25 AC, having most hp in the group by like 10-20 points at level 5, having all savingthrows being good other than like strength, having ranged damaging cantrips that deal damage similar to paladin's smite, renewing up to 15 temporary hit points a turn and being generally good at everything"
i did not make up that character, the only reason they're out of the campaign as it is rn is because they decided to split the party and went alone to the place i planned to be a dragon layer that is a trap for the entire party :/
I've always suspected there is a meta plot to Arlentric's shorts. I didn't realize how meta it is.
The metaverse runs deep
As a minmaxer, my favorite solution is to minmax for nonsensical things, especially if they also help the party. My favorite was an order cleric bard, so she was literally cheerleading! Bonus action to give bardic inspiration, action to cast heroism on the same person, and then they also get an attack!
The best and funnest kind of minmax in my opinion!
I think min-maxxed support builds are the only ones that are never problematic. They help others feel awesome rather than giving you the spotlight. You feel great because you were incredibly impactful, they feel great because you helped them feel awesome, the dm can throw more complex or harder encounters at the party (which I’ve found to be more fun to run/play), everyone wins.
@@weepingwalnut Yeah, any time I'm in a party with noobs or that just generally don't optimize for whatever reason, unless a few of them chose to play support, I always build support, if some of them DO choose to play support, I hear what everyone else is playing and then choose a build that won't step on anybody's toes. IMO, the only way an optimized build is actually a problem is if it has overlap with another player's role in the party, because then you're fighting over the same spotlight moments and the better build will win, anything else can be solved by a competent DM and a respectful player.
That quick "its not permanent" just makes it all the funnier
One of my favorite modules in the Living Greyhawk campaign for 3.x D&D had the PCs get soul-swapped. Basically, the GM took all the character sheets, then shuffled them back so everyone was playing someone else's character for the bulk of the module. Great fun--my dour, sarcastic Grey Elf Alienist Wizard was swapped with out party's super-chipper Halfling Bard. They BOTH were a bit scarred by the experience.
Our whole group are minmax players. Their characters are specialized in one direction and can destroy the opponent in one blow. As a DM, I'm fine with that. NPCs and other enemies have means to defend themselves against one or more characters. The boss can usually be defeated only with the right combination of character abilities. Yes, I must have in mind that if they choose the right ability at the right moment, the players will fly through the campaign at lightning speed, but that's another story.
Our High damage weapon wielding wizard was charmed by our enemy... He tpk'd our party... Ouch 😮
Our DPS Barbarian had Dominate Person cast on him, and the only reason we survived was because he got hit with an effect that made him unable to stand, so he was crawling everywhere trying (and thankfully failing) to hit us.
I’m a bard healer and I firmly believe in proactive healing. I always squeeze all I can out of unused spell shots at the end of the day as preparation for the next and Mind Blank on a wizard is never a bad call.
You mentioned that the solution can be simple, and I just thought of the simplest solution for at least one encounter that includes a powergamer which would be awesome to play against, getting thrown into a room that looks like it just has a big mirror on the other side, but it's actually one big room that has doppelgangers of the party imitating their moves on the other side until the time to strike, so you can take your local powergamer and see how well they deal with themselves, alongside the rest of the party with their respective selves.
Yea and fighting doppelgangers can be really fun even if you don't powergame since when a DM of mine did that it was great
I really like this longer form content, especially how you use it to tie together lots of your more classic short skits, it's a neat way to expand upon an already good style. Pretty cool :D
DM here, taking a break from Dming and piloting a Lv16 min/maxed character.
Advice:
Communicate w/ your player & know their capabilties, strengths and weaknesses. Make a social contract on boundaries at the table, and then treat them like any other player. Giving them highs and granting moments to shine, as well as lows that show their weaknesses in RP or in combat.
Any respectable player will follow the social contract - including powergamers.
My current social contract is 'no magic jar, no simulacrums or summoned armies in our same combat, and magic items must be earned or crafted, never bought' and its really helping our crew play the game this high a level w/o things breaking too much!
And remember, forshadowed surprises, status conditions, and when it makes narrative sense exposing their weaknesses can always challenge a character - even if theyre min/maxed.
I don’t know why it took me so long to actually acknowledge your accent as Aussie, it just sounds so immediately familiar and pleasant I didn’t even notice
I'll admit I never have and probably never will get to play D&D, but I still watch every one of your videos. You have great humour and even videos like this that are more informative rather than skit are really well put together and enjoyable to watch. I'd love more long form. I appreciate the effort you put into your videos, good stuff.
Absolutely more long form pls, this was great.
I'm glad to see you make a longform vid - that even incorporates some skits!
Loving the longform, glad to hear you have more ideas in the works😊. Hope you have a lovely week!
This is a good video. As a DM you should check in with the players every now and then and see how they are enjoying the game, how they are enjoying everyone else, anything they’d like to change ect.
Communication is key!
I also like how the short skits were included in this video.
One problem I've noticed that wasn't mentioned, is that power gamers are also more likely to be spotlight hogs. This isn't always true, but it often is. By "challenging them more", you risk other players feeling even more unimportant.
For this reason, my brain starts at the point of "this may not be the right game group for you", but outwardly I do try the conversation(s) and to find ways to some the spotlight around the table.
Really like the longer form content
As a power gamer, my DM is dealing with me by making me the DM, since the group is a group of murder hobos, and they aren't really having fun with being the DM. Since they don't know how to handle that and my builds.
Do you feel you're happy/equipped enough to DM that kind of group?
@@Arlentric I'm more of a combat kind of player, and the DM is more of a story teller. We feel like I'd be able to handle a group of murder hobos a bit better, plus I can still make power gamer NPCs for the players to have challenges against. So I'm happy about the situation.
It also helps that I'm a theory crafter, so I find interesting ways to build characters, and situations.
@@fmbholyrunner3316dave?
Loved the longer videos! Was just saying to myself how I wish there were longer videos of yours! Your style of doing and scenarios are super cool and love your rogue esque hair color! ❤❤❤❤
Just remember, one of the more challenging encounters for players to face is a rival adventuring group, one that actually works together and are well versed in doing so. If all else fails theres always the Kobiyashi Maru quest, the only way to win is to lose.
I actually loved the video.
The way you integrated what you were saying with examples (Frieren, ATLA) and you youtube shorts. All that while talking to us, without that "the video has to be fast paced and I need to talk super excited to the audience".
Definitely gonna watch more of these.
Thanks for the content you make, gives me lots of ideas to put in my campaigns :D
I Love your short videos as they always make me laugh. In fact I share the links with my group. That being said I enjoyed this long form vid as well. I currently don't DM but I liked your thoughts on power gamers. I hope you do more long form vids.
I had no idea you did things other than skits, this was a really good and helpful video.
Thanks :D
Another long form vid! 🗿
Hope you enjoyed it!
The power gaming a puzzle skit gave me a brain hemorrhage
Yep, your long-form is very enjoyable, and great tips for DMs!
My best friend doesn't want to be challenged, they just want to win. Trying to figure out how to challenge him makes him upset if he isn't just destroying everything. They're really good at figuring out how to be extremely powerful, too. Don't know how to make it so that he doesn't just run through and everyone else just sort of follows him.
It's nice to have YOU in a video. performance is good and all. But these things often require a discussion. I'm glad you're going there.
Much more me to come, I've realized I have way too much just to ramble away about, so WAY too many more videos in the works
@@Arlentric how would you rule this situation? What if a lvl 3 sorcerer quickens a catapault spell and uses a 5lb bag of flour as the projectile making hit the wall beside the enemy creating a flour cloud that he targets with firebolt. What would you rule happens?
How I'd run the turn is by asking them to roll a perception check to see how good their eye sight and situational awareness is( to find a good spot close to their enemy where the bag can and will explode as intended) and a dexterity check to see how good their aim is while trying to hit the bag with the spell(because neither would have AC for the spells to hit)
I know people will argue that sorcerers use "charisma" To attack but those spells are only supposed to target creatures and using a spell for something other than it's intended and expected use means that the character must use his raw skills and experience to change it. Forgive me I'm ranting.
As for how it ends? What exactly happens would depend on the style of your game and the situation in which the person decided to do something like that(fun, funny, serious, weird, cute)
I'll try using a few examples
1. Perception check fails
-the bag hits the ceiling and explodes spilling dust all over the room, obscuring view(helping the enemy)
-the bag hits a wet puddle on the floor and fails to explode or only causes a tiny splash of wet flour causinga small patch of difficult terrain
2. Dexterity check fails
-the bag hits the spot and explodes but, you failed to account for a draft and the flour fog blows a little to the left missing your enemy
-the bag flies perfectly but the enemy notices it and catches it(if not in combat) or dodges it(because he's that good and not stupidly waiting for it)
3. Both rolls are kinda high and succeed
-the bag explodes in his face possibly blinding him and making him look like a clown (maybe until he does a con save to escape) but the firebolt fails to cause an explosion (if you don't want the player to succeed completely)
-the player succeeds and the enemy takes extra 2d6 fire damage/ extra d6 fire damage and is dazed for a turn. (Because you want to see them happy)
I know it's too long and probably not related to what was asked? (Sorry) But I hope it helps somehow
Had a barbarian. Guy brought in a armored fighter who rolled really well, so he had a lot of AC and HP. Every fight I'd go out in a rage of glory and get reduced or knocked out. We didn't have a cleric. Before the fighter showed up, I was the only fighter type so I could last out any combat we did, when buddy showed up, either I get wiped out or the fighter hardly got a scratch.
Another fun way to challenge the party is to give them an enemy with an asymmetric win condition. The party is trying to defeat their foe, but their foe is trying to steal the McGuffin and escape with it, or to assassinate their NPC ally and get away, or destroy the McGuffin and get away, or draw out the battle for as long as possible to slow the party down while a ritual is being completed or some other kind of clock runs out. It's especially great when the party realizes that defeating them was never the goal of the enemy, sometimes they don't realize until it's too late, sometimes they realize at the last second and pull a skin of their teeth save, but either way, most of the time it results in a cool plot hook to draw them into the next adventure!
Once as a thought experiment I decided to build the Ultimate Ninja Master, optimizing for stealth, infiltration, and escape so they can get in, quickly dump a lot of damage into a single target or steal something or whatever, and get out. After I put it together I realized it kind of sucks on a PC (unless you're playing solo), but as a recurring antagonist it's amazing! Mark of Shadows Elf, Scout Rogue 13/College of Whispers Bard 7, feats can vary depending on how you plan to use them, if focusing more on infiltration, Actor, Keen Mind, Observant, and Telepathic are great options, if focusing more on assassination, then Piercer, Skulker, Sharpshooter, and Elven Accuracy are awesome, mix and match for the fifth feat, or take something else that's just generally useful like Lucky or Fae Touched. Lots of awesome options to mess with your players if this guy is messing with them, and pretty much all of them involve asymmetric win conditions, because he's not trying to kill the party, he isn't equipped to do that! No, he's trying to do a job and the party happens to be in the way, maybe he's trying to assassinate a noble under their protection, maybe he's trying to steal the McGuffin, maybe he's trying to break into a vault to steal an ancient tome and the players happen to be in the area. Even if he fails his mission objective, he escapes using a combination of his scout abilities, his stealth skills, and his various other tricks! Have him be like the left hand of the BBEG or something, acting as a constant thorn in the party's side, accomplishing his goals despite their efforts to stop him, messing with the party's plans, and then escaping before they can do anything about it!
I remember I had a pathfinder 1e group where we had a tanky fighter , a midrange druid/clutch healer, a healadin, a dodgey damage dealing rogue, a blast happy wizard, and me the bard who made everyone better. We got introduced a gunslinger a few months into our gameplay and he alone completely warped our dynamic in doing waaay more damage than the rogue, having crazy high AC, and having skills like but better than the rogue.
And we did have to have a chat because the rogue player was slowly but surely losing interest in the game and the fighter player was feeling useless as well because the DM set up challenges to HIS level not ours. So after a bit of doing we made some changes namely to his crit range which is what was causing so many issues, his high AC mattering less because he became a sniper instead of a in the thick of it pistilaro making the Fighter feel more impactful again. He and the rogue player also rearranged some skill allocations so they didn't overlap so much.
Great video. Love the shorts stitched into it, it narrates your overall points very well. From a video editing perspective I would suggest just adding an audio filter to balance your various clips to within the same range, but otherwise, bully to you, I look forward to seeing more! :)
genuinely appreciate the tip - I'll look into that for my next one :D
just as long as your character has weaknesses (narrative or otherwise) you’re fine! flaws are included in the character sheet for a reason 🥰
Lovely 😊! More longform videos pls
Happily :D
I’m here cause of your shorts love the idea of long form and would like maybe some skits playing though scenarios
Ie for this video maybe a skit of what you have done to out play the min max payers and giving solid advice like you did at the same time
Maybe a bunch of different little skits that can tie in to a video
Obviously do what come naturally for you but that’s my opinion and what I’d be hoping for in the future
Either way love the content and am looking forward to seeing what you do with the long form
I’m actually the minmaxxer of my group: the Dragonborn barbarian. My DM loves it because he gets to create more challenging encounters. My party loves it because I can handle the combat so they can make creative and fun builds. Don’t worry though, I still roleplay the character extremely well and he’s become a beloved character in the campaign. Recently, my DM has given him a cursed weapon: the Berserker’s Greataxe. Luckily, my character has explained to the party that in order to avoid the berserk mode, they can just dash, as the curse says I must use my action to attack, nothing about dashing.
My Soulknife rogue is a different story. He’s very much hated because he’s just invisible.
My favorite two ways to deal with min/max characters:
Step One: Let them shine at what they do.
Step Two: Let the other players shine at what they do.
Step Three: Rake in the profit when you once in a while create a situation with the wrong guy in the wrong place. Min/Maxing comes with delicious disadvantages in some fields. And both, having a player feel like he is blitzing through everything and enemies are just like fish in barrel and him feeling like his PC is like a fish out of water make for great scenes.
It's all about finding balance. Most players who build an OP character do this because they actually want to feel actually op and they deserve this moment. Others might just enjoy being good with the mechanics and those deserve as well to be presented with a challenge. A few are just afraid to mess up and be a hindrance to the party. That certainly would be a good point to talk about outside of game, because it rarely is a problem and if communicated well, players might actually try for once a min/min character instead of a min/maxed character.
Those are super fun too from a roleplay perspective and the whole party protecting for example their adopted party mascot can create really great and memorable scenes. Squires and apprentices for example would be a classic weak characters to play.
I've been guilty of powergaming before, my main strategy for building a character combat wise is establishing what class/subclass they would be and what their combat style would be from RP and backstory purposes- then build around that. For example i had a fighter i wanted to multiclass into warlock due to the way the dm ruled resting, and hexblade champion would make me crit on a 18. However due to backstory stuff my boy Arthur was involved with the fae, and so even though archfey was objectively worse that's what I chose to build around.
Then i did research and chose pact of the blade for moonbow, which combined with this armour i later got that has 60ft flying speed once per day for an hour- I can move up to 120 feet in the air and then use moonbow which has a 150 feet range and consistent 1d8 per spell level arrows if i choose to use them that way.
I'd love to see more longform content. My only piece of advice is that whenever you use clips, you make them the same volume level as the rest of the videos. Some people like me listen to videos while their hands are busy, and being able to hear everything in the video without manually changing your volume would be great ^-^
Sometimes, the way to deal with the powergamer is to create encounters where the powergamer needs to do their thing. For example, say the players are about to face down one threat when, from behind them, another more dangerous threat shows up. Now the powergamer needs to handle an enemy group tuned for them while the rest of the party handles the weaker foes. If you really need to emphasize which group is for the powergamer, you can have an intelligent creature who knows who they are bellow a challenge.
cool advice! i’m going to add goku
I love a power gamer or min/maxer at my table. It gives me a chance to see what they made, and how to challenge it.
One of my favorite things I did with a melee min/max was challenge them with a Ranger. They couldn't get close enough on their own to fight back. Sure, the min/max had a massive AC, so the chances of damaging them was very low, but they had ultimately met their match because a low chance to hit is better than the min/maxer's no chance to hit. They had to rely on their party to even the playing field.
A ranged Min/max? Get someone who can keep them close. A Battle Master Fighter with Sentinel, and the maneuver Precision Attack for a bonus to attack or Feinting Strike for advantage on an attack to stick them in place with Opportunity Attacks is a good way too. Once again, they'd have a party to help them out if they felt they needed it.
But of course don't ALWAYS hard counter your players. Giving them a fight they really shine can be just as much fun as giving them a hard challenge.
The video stated it perfectly to give variation.
Dear god, not the reverse AC! *Shudders*
Occam's Razor: The simplest solution is often the correct one.
As a min maxer.
I find my dm focuses more on rp and politics to flesh out our backstories and bring our characters to life.
Being said he restricted our starting location which had social and governmental strictures on how a character makes a living in that particular city.
Currently playing becmi (gestalt modified cause fewer players) in a merchant city campaign
Fleshing out who, what, and why we are in the plotical landscape made how we min max and how we develop from the encounters.
It also helps we all hate murder hobos and can form npc relations for recurring shenanigans
watching this as a powergamer to plan a counter for these counters to me
Give them something non-disruptive to power game. Work it into their story.
You don't need spellcasters to get through super-tanks. A kobold tribe that's figured out their own recipe for alchemist's fire (or other elemental chemicals) and deploys them at range with slings is just fine. Twenty 5-foot bursts of 2d4 fire/acid/poison/cold damage (dex save for half) will chip away at most tanks.
If you just can't get through the HP-wall of a difficult player, go around it. Sleep effects, charm effects, the poisoned condition, even just a low-lying bit of tunnel in a mine or dungeon filled with harmful mine-gasses and low on oxygen to start forcing the Exhaustion condition.
Got a minion-master who keeps mind-controlling goblin tribes to kill themselves or otherwise plow through hordes of low-level enemies? Don't invest in a single big-bad. Just change the enemy type. Reflavor the goblins as animated puppets that an evil circus has been leaving in its wake. Use all the same stats as goblins but make them resistant to the most common damage type your party uses and set their creature type to CONSTRUCT so they can't be easily charmed, re-animated, etc.
Still have a problem with murder-hobos? Make the campaign about an infestation of Puppeteers (old 3.5 monster but it's a simple premise that's easily modified). A town is suddenly acting strange. Everyone is being controlled by a strange leech/centipede/squid-like monster clamped on the back of their heads. If the players try to fight the townsfolk, they're going to kill a bunch of innocents and the parasites will mysteriously vanish before they can explain the carnage to higher authorities, turning them into wanted fugitives. Force them to think and be clever or talk their way through the campaign. Sure, put together a 'boss fight' for the end, but make them have to talk their way there.
I am a power gamer by definition. I found flavoring is awesome, Dr Jeckle/Mr Hyde was simple Artificer (alchemist) with Barbarian, drinking special Potion to rage as a bonus action. Or flavoring the race centaur in dnd beyond to play as an awakened goat. Also reskinned a scimitar as a cleaver for a dex based lizardfolk druid (chef). Made a forest gnome druid(Moon)/Monk(open Hand) which would commonly travel as a squirrel and run up and drop kick enemies with unarmed strikes. Placed a book in my inventory about giants(paying 25 gp) because i speak giant, made for good roleplay and advantage on history giants. Buying a block and tackle for weak/smart characters along with burglar pack for pitons/hammer/rope/crowbar to lift 400lb block over a entrance. Buying a goat as a for milk, pack animal (for light gear), alert system, bait, pet, confidant, gift/trade, once slaughtered a few meals. and can use remains (hide/bones) for various gear. These are all by definition power gaming but make the game so much better.
And forgot tools can be used without proficiencies like wood carving tools to gouge a hole in a locked door, takes time and doesn't have to be petty
5:05 "Cobblestone" walls? I take out a wooden pickaxe, breaking 8 cubes of cobblestone away from the wall before building an entire furnace.
I would give (almost) anything to have a DM like you. I min/max. I don't see a simple farmer suddenly deciding to go adventuring. I wouldn't just walk up to a dragon and boop it on the nose (though I might be tempted, they're so cute). However, my barbarian who's been trained for the fighting pits since he was a lad just might. I min/max not to be the most powerful thing out there, but to be able to survive the first few waves of skeletons and ghouls that are infesting the local farmer's land. I always make sure to back up my min/max with a good backstory and have a life goal in mind for them.
DMing a table full of min/maxers, it can be frustrating to come up with a challenge that makes sense in-world. The only time I have ever seen genuine fear in my party's eyes was when I managed to possess the Tempest Cleric. I allowed the player to continue controlling his character, but with the secret instruction to wipe out his companions. His general competitive streak took over, and let's just say that nobody enjoyed being on the business end of a surprise Channel Divinity Call Lightning. Except me... I enjoyed it very much.
I relate to fizzle flop way to much
I have personaly made a dnd homebrew rule where if you get to level 20 in one class you can save that character and put them somewhere else and start again with level 1 in another with everything carrying over. It is ok when I was having ChatGPT dm but when I did that for a real campain I made a rule where the past class features are locked. Another thing I home brewed was to be able to play a litteral adult dragon, again when I moved from chat to a real dnd group I made it so they can't turn into their dragon form.
I also remember a time when we just decimated a boss that in the world we were playing in that had 4 health bars. we did so many mean/evil things to it that it decided to never respawn. Another boss from that world that we faced had (Because I have no spelling I am using what minecraft calls them) Pointed Dripstone from the ceiling fall on it then it got pounced on and died.
(I am sorry for any spelling or gramer mistakes I tried to make it readable but I am not sure how well I did.)
Another thing I remembered. I litterly made a level 220 (Level 20 in everything I had ecept for wizard) fox for one of the games I was dming because my players were not the best. the funny thing is that even with the op fox one of my players died 3 time. One was a bag of holding full of fireball that was ment for emergencys. another was a young Green Dragon that would have run away on it's next turn (was able to BS a Revivify, also should not have spammed the posion breath{Fox also was healing as much as he could}). and fighting a owlbear alone (the rest of the party found out it was aowlbear and ran.) well pulling agro with the rest of the dungens enemys. For the third one I feel bad because as the dm I sould not have had them cut the dudes head off after they fell. I asked if the person if they were ok with me saying that Enemys did something else and just sorta rewrite what happened, but they player said no.
Something you can do is instead of arguing with the powergamer, embrace them. Have them cook up character sheets that other players may wish to use. After all, if the problem is that they're more powerful than the rest of the party, then that problem goes away if the same procedure was done on everyone (in theory atleast)
I have a single "house rule" as DM that is told to everyone prior to character creation:
- Force damage is like bludgeoning damage, except it attacks the life force not the body. So all constructs, undead, and ghostly aberrations are immune to it despite the stat blocks for them not saying so. Force damage under stock rules has only two monsters immune to it -- Helmed Horrors and Amethyst Dragons. Almost nothing resists it either. The rule levels the playing field a bit, so that I as DM can set up more encounters where one character can shine instead of it always being the one using trusty ol' force damage carrying the party's offense every single fight. It also makes combat more interesting when half the party isn't firing Eldritch Blasts as their entire contribution to each combat turn... because that happens -- put a Warlock, a Sorcerer, a Bard, and a Paladin in the same party and it makes sense under stock rules for all 4 of them to grab Eldritch Blast (Spellsniper) with Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept) as a way to giga-blast things from 240 ft away. They spend no resources, and it doesn't matter if it's one big target or many small ones since Eldritch Blast is a large number of 1d10+5 attacks.
This one rules seems to be enough. I can easily tailor encounters to the party, once I have the tools this provides me. Maybe the fighter has to switch weapons against a certain foe immune to magical weapons, or the cleric's healing is hard to use because of some Silence spells that have popped up on the battlefield due some hiding casters trying to help fight without getting themselves killed. It's pretty easy to make every fight require new tactics.
Let's go!!
Whats truly incredible about the Simulacrum-Wish combo is that you dont even need Wish. Simulacrum just breaks the game by itself. Only a ruling from Adventurer's League fixes infinite Simulacrums.
Crap... you figured out my reverse AC strategy also known as THAC0, I hope none of my players see this video.
I’m a new dm so this helped greatly thank you
Oofies. In my experiences, which are many, they're usually narcissistic and a simple conversation isn't going to change the person behind the choices.
Ah yes, being intentionally vague and platitudeiness!
I love min maxers, their weaknesses are so exploitable
I run for a group of four lvl 15s. I've homebrewed some truly vile shit, but they're just too powerful to challenge normally.
I feel like I HAVE to preface my comment by saying that I know my problem is based on my personal experience and issues with a DM not listening/showing favouritism/having personal issues with me that he never expressed. So into my actual comment.
For me, there's a difference between someone that likes to optimise their build and a power gamer or min-maxer. The people I've played with that like to optimise their builds have all had their place in the party and their character is well optimised for that place (for example; someone is "the tank", they've built their character around being in the enemies' faces, taking their attention and their damage way better than anyone else in the party could ever hope to. But barter a good deal with the merchant they cannot). On the other hand, my experiences with someone I'd call a power gamer or min-maxer involves them going out of their way to somehow fill every single role in the most optimised way possible that they can, even stomping on other players ideas and characters to do so. I've played with a couple people like this but the one that will always be my go-to example is an absolute jerk about it. In the span of like two months real time, he went through something like 4 or 5 characters "finding something he liked". With those characters he: made a copy of my homebrew class but made it better (I was playing a pyromancer whose one, single thing was if he died, he fireballed and rose from the ashes a few turns later provided those ashes were in a close enough group, so this player made a cryomancer and gave himself ice armour, an ice guardian, access to higher level ice spells through class abilities, and the ability to freeze himself in time to negate a certain amount of damage each turn) and he stopped playing that character maybe two sessions after the DM decided that if he and I hit the same target in a turn then that target took extra damage for going from one temperature extreme to the other in less than 6seconds. He replaced that character one that effectively shut down roughly half of another player's character did and competed with them for the rest (the other player was played a very multiclassdd character that was essentially a jack of all trade; he could fight decently as a dex fighter, he had good perception and insight and general utility skills and had tactical knowledge (a drow from the Underdark that was brought up as whippjng biy for a prince and promoted as master-at-arms/tactician due to familial bloodlines and aptitude, but didn't bother trying to talk to people except to offer tactical advice. The min-maxer made his own jack of all trades combatant that mad magic too, a fantastic skill set with much better stats, and could also wheel and deal and somehow had even better military tactical experience despite having grown up on the streets and never having been in any kind of military training or situation). He abandoned that one after the drow got a "curse" from Lolth that made him far superior in melee combat than anyone else in the party with room to grow better still if the player pursued that route. The next few from that player were variations of the same thing, a new character that can do everything this character can do but better then being abandoned when either the player found a way to improve or the DM decided to give the player's character something unique. He eventually settled toward the end of the campaign (so were around level 17+) on a wizard that could cast druid spells too and made a level 10 spell (that I'm still not sure how he pulled off) that was essentially a nuke.
In other games and campaigns, he's always done the same thing. The only exception MIGHT be in a game he doesn't have much experience with like Shadowrun but even then he tried.
As far as I know, the DM never tried to talk to him about it, never asked him to stop actively stepping on other people's toes, but for that campaign at least he did make sure that every character got something that made them feel unique. The DM is the same DM that developed a personal issue with me in a later campaign, though, and I ended up leaving before I got to witness the min-maxer at it again overly much in the fresh campaign, but he did happen to be playing what looked like a cross between my character and someone else's (when at level 1, session 1, you're basically stripped of the ability to do anything because your racial ability is taken and youre put in a situation where your class abilities should help you but don't because of weak reasoning, you get frustrated). He slowly moved the game to the min-maxer's house without saying anything to me and I stopped trying. Found out months later that he was avoiding me because he started dating someone he knew I was interested in and didn't wanna just have that conversation like an adult
I care more about inner partyz balance because my games are challenging enough.
I usually just buff the unoptimal choices to keep all character options viable. I also approve characters individually and ask them to tone it down as needed. I'm also not likely to lowe the power levels of supports though.
MORE LONG FORM PLZ THNK
I'm still a newbie DM, playing for the first time with a power gamer who "is god" (wants to ascend to godhood? Wants power, and lots of combat) My strat to balance him with the other players, who are more into the roleplaying aspect?
He's going to prison. I mean, eventually, because of all the havoc he longs to wreak. The other players may talk their way out of prison, but he? I'm planning my prison because of him. Plus, if he isn't sentenced to death and the others gets captured too, I have community service (killing invading fiends) OR the mafia gets them out to hire for a job.
Also, I didn't want my NPCs to be so squishy, so they have means to survive let's say, a fireball, and placed Shield Guardians around the city as security guards.
I was dealing with a player who “apparently” got a *one-shot* iron axe from a lvl 1 demon and had 1998 health at like level one. I punished him severely by dealing over 5,000 damage in 2 attacks. Act like a main character and suffer like Itadori did.
The biggest problem with minmaxers is when everyone isnt on the same table, I mean like you end up shouting across the room, jokes aside the problem comes when one player overshadows everyone else making them feel worthless. I have lots of characters ready for campaigns that vary in how optimised they are for this exact reason.
I answer either use old spells or make spells and attacks to switch it up I’ve had them fight a gravity manipulator warrior with swords for hands and a monkey king style enemy that shoots out pillars the size of mountains on top of them or even use them as platforms to monk style beat them up
Im a min maxer, but that love roleplay, i mostly min max for survability because im too attached to my character. But for roleplay reason i always put à major flaw or weakness, like i have an archivist (3.5 dnd) and she bad at reflex because she lacks experience in real battle, else shes a booksworm that know everything and prepare in advance for any situation. Also dm found a way to counter me that make us all laugh: Trip, now my character complain about getting trip in every fight and i roleplay around that xD
Power gamers are only ever really a problem when only part of the party is power gaming. If everyone is, then the dm can just bump up the difficulty of scenarios.
Personally I just find something silly to try to optimize. Sure, I got create demiplane at level 5, doesn't help with most scenarios but still scratched that theorycrafting itch and gives me something different to mess with.
For me, the problem always came when the "Power gamer" additionally cheated. And unfortunately, refused to talk things out to make things fun for everyone.
The biggest one that sticks in my mind, is a Totem Barbarian, that had ~150 health at level 5 (Yes, I know how they tried explaining that to me.) always rolled "Crits" out of view of everyone else, and if asked to roll in view because of that would usually end up leaving for the night.
A big problem was I could either build encounters / traps and stuff to challenge them, or the 3 other players. Who were new to the game (This was their first campaign ever.) So things ended up being mostly too easy if he was there, too hard if he decided he didn't want to participate for whatever reason. It was hardly ever in balance.
6:52 - Collins Dictionary: "If you put someone in their place, you show them that they are less important or clever than they think they are."
To all DMs: You are pretending to be a god, you're not one. The players are supposed to be your friends, not dogs. Talk to them, yes, but if you want to talk down to them, seek professional help.
Putting someone in their place could literally be telling someone to not talk down to everyone else because they aren't more important. Hence you showed them they weren't as important as they thought. Context is massively important.
please upload them in full hd pretty please
Is it difficut when you have a group of players new to dnd and one veteran player? Sounds challenging to challenge the one player while also making the other players feel powerful.
This is all really good advice in general; As someone who is both an experienced power gamer and DM for power gamers, here are the tips and tricks I use and have had used against me that work best;
1.) As the DM, you have perfect information; You never have to guess what everyone is best and worst at. You know everyone's best and worst saves, how each character avoids damage, and how much of each resource each player has at all times. Even if you don't, you always have the right as DM to ask. In your game, there is no hidden information from you, so it's important to use that information.
2.) Bad guys can use magic items, too. For best effect, make sure they're one-use to avoid giving the party anything too powerful. Basically any buff spell can be turned into a potion, and any big-bad who can cast spells can make use of scrolls. You don't even have to count them out ahead of time. Just make a list of useful buffs and spells; If you feel a fight isn't enough of a challenge, break out the list and use something from it to bolster the fight. Just make sure a single potion/scroll of anything you used can be found as loot after the fact, so the party doesn't feel cheated.
Some examples: Potions of Healing, Speed, or Gaseous Form (for quick escapes). Scrolls of Shields, Absorb Elements, and Death Ward (Death Ward you can assume was cast before the fight, which the party gets to discover when they find the back-up amongst the loot)
3.) Not every encounter has to completely wreck the party. Anything that causes them to expend resources is a win on your end. That can be health, spell slots, and especially one-use magic items. Every D&D character's weakness is attrition, and as the DM, you get to control how quickly the next encounter finds the party. You have an entire campaign to humble a power-gamer and show them their build's weakness. There's no need to rush.
Also I wouldn’t mind some education on how to play dnd and the scenarios n stuff as I’m very interested but can’t play cause only me and my wife are interested at this point in my journey though life
And if there is a way to do a 2 player cooperative or solo as one of us has to be the dm
If you do try a game with just the two of you its probably easier to give them multiple characters, game gets very weird when you don't have the flexiblity a party brings and having to re-evaluate balance for everything gets annoying. Possible, just takes alot more work to do 1 character game.
On the plus side its alot easier to do solo missions, in a group of people it would feel bad to do a mission of the rogue sneaking in solo to steal something even if thats what makes the most sense for the story, for 1 player though they can just focus on one of their characters and enjoy a session and go back to playing the party next session.
There is a DND RUclipsr named 'Ginny Di' she did a video on this exact subject.
ruclips.net/video/5WH0yEY5uo8/видео.htmlsi=Ung5PQy8SYeWIOtL
How much do I have to pay to join one of your games
I min max because i know how dice work if i want to succeed at fucking ANYTHING i need the biggest numbers i can have, and I have already decided the general arc of my character and how i want them to work, for example when i played Sal the alchemist he was a bit of a coward he had high int to be able to tell just what he was looking at and if he should run away which also meant his bombs were high damage and he had alot of them, when i play say Duggery a skeleton bard in pathfinder 2e hes dumb as rocks but has such a withering stare that he once made a pick pocket cry just by staring at them both are min maxed but as a result they both do the things i want them to do
Not dnd, but one of my players is very much a minmaxer at my table. Always tries to be the best at combat, only engages with combat stuff and is almost silent otherwise. We've tried talking to her, but...as an example, in our last campaign, we were playing the Warhammer age of Sigmar RPG. One player was playing a long distance sniper, and taking a bunch of explosive talents...and she started taking the exact same talents, so she could have the exact same sorts of feats he did.
There was even a point where her character was charmed to betray mine, a huge character moment for my character...and she just glared at my guy and said "I don't give a fuck"
Hi, new to DND and decided to watch a few of your vids since I've seen your shorts before. I'm a filmmaker myself and I actually relate to a lot of stuff in your vids because working with actors can be very similar, good communication with them is extremely important. I do have some minor pointers from a filmmaking standpoint. When filming two characters in dialogue (even if they are yourself) try to alternate directions so that they don't end up occupying the same space on the screen and don't face the same direction like in the sketch at 7:00. This is disorienting to the audience. Another trick is the J-cut, which simply means having sound from the next shot already play before you cut the video. Maybe you already know these and are still learning them, but I'd thought I'd point them out to help you improve just as you're doing with me!
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I dunno man. I think modern D&D's narrative focus isn't really the place for power gamers/min-maxers. Maybe in the rare case where everyone is coming into a campaign expecting to build their characters as broken as possible it could be fine. However, my experience is that if you have some players building story driven characters, you're going to have problems if someone in the group is min-maxing.
For one, intra-party power imbalances make DMing a nightmare. Building monsters that are tough enough to challenge your player who somehow managed to get a stable 32 AC are going to absolutely smash the dwarf wizard who, for RP reasons, only has a 15 INT. Even if your min-maxer tries to let the spotlight shine on others, those other players are likely to realize that their character is only getting a moment due to charity, and not because they actually contribute to the game.
However, I think an even bigger issue is that the narrative focus of modern D&D means that characters should have meaningful weaknesses/flaws. This is antithetical to the power gaming/min-maxing mindset. I remember being the DM in a game where someone built a light domain cleric with 8 INT. Since, mechanically, INT is the best stat to be weak in (unless your class depends on that stat), his character had no meaningful weaknesses. Of course this player didn't role-play that INT score at all. And since the weakness had no mechanical impact on their character, their character was just more powerful than the other characters in the game.
I don't think this situation will ever be fun for the other players. It made it impossible to tell any meaningful stories about the cleric. And, in _and_ out of combat, the cleric was generally better at almost anything the party needed to accomplish. Sure, in 5E it's hard to build a character that's good at _everything_, but it can be pretty hard for a DM to provide moments for other characters to shine without injecting scenarios which strain the suspension of disbelief.
I personally think that there are other systems out there that are better suited towards the min-maxing philosophy. Pathfinder 2nd Edition comes to mind. That system is much more well balanced than D&D 5E, and has a built in expectation that you have a mastery of the crunchy character creation rules.
There's a lot to unpack here, so I'm going to throw a lot of 5e concepts rapidly.
There are three pillars to 5e. Combat, exploration, and role play. Be sure you're not ignoring any of them or letting one overshadow the rest in narrative importance. You can't fight the bad guys if you can't find them. You can't be the heroes if no one likes or agrees with you. You can't survive danger if no one can fight. Not every story arc should get a "good" ending, based on how the players choose to tackle things.
Some combat should have objectives other than reducing things to 0 HP. Chases, convincing someone, protecting an NPC, solving a puzzle, etc. The alternative goals should emphasize the strengths of your non-combat focused characters. A fight might be unwinnable until some objectives are accomplished, for example. You may have to rush to a gate and do Strength checks to open it while your allies fight off the advance units, so reinforcements can stem the tide of hundreds of enemies.
Armor class does nothing against saving throws. Spellcasters can be largely disabled just by heavily obscured terrain or blocking line of sight. Intelligent and capable enemies may have countermeasures against common combat tactics. Just be sure you don't metagame and 'counter' your players. NPCs only know what they know. Particularly dangerous enemies, though, might gain intel on the players if they fail elsewhere in the campaign...
For party balance though, COMMUNICATE. I can't stress this enough. If you have difficulty asking your players' feelings, use a system like Stars and Wishes to encourage structured and productive feedback. If they're happy, there's no reason to worry. Imagine forcing your players to role play in exactly equal amounts. Your shy or spectator-type players would get stressed out and might bail! The same is true for combat.
If you DO have a party imbalance that does NOT fit with your table's preferences, then it's time to have a discussion. Bring the problem to your players and work WITH them to find a solution. You might be surprised to find how cooperative most players will be. If someone's build is too strong, maybe ask if it's okay for them to suffer a tragedy that weakens them, as part of the story. Or to retire them entirely and swap out to a new character that's not as strong. End of the day, if you have a problem player, then you have to deal with that out of game. Solve in-game problems in game, solve out-of-game problems out of game.
For the cleric being so strong... classes are NOT balanced in 5e. Not even close. There's a huge martial/caster divide, AND spellcasting features are almost always far more available, broad, and flavorful for role play. Try to emphasize non-spellcasting features or create scenarios for mundane skills to shine. Distribute magic items strategically to aid party balance. Have a frank discussion with your players that optimized or power builds will not see the same love, and others will be helped to rise UP to their level. Your newbie un-optimized rogue might need a powerful magic item (or a few!) even at low level, to keep up with a veteran, optimized spellcaster. That said, the weakest class on an engaged and experienced player will usually outshine and outperform the strongest class on an avoidant newbie. So be sure to encourage your less-active players, and make sure your active players are giving them room to shine and grow. Beyond that... just rely on feedback from your players to talk to you if they start becoming dissatisfied or having less fun.
I'm gonna say I don't think power gaming is "playing the game on a deeper level". It has its place for people who enjoy it, but it also has a dark side. I had a player who was a powergamer who loved to mix in metagaming.
"power gaming and min maxing is fun for certain players so it's important to make them feel included!"
have a conversation with them to tell them to change how they play or consider getting rid of them altogther...ok then
I don't min/max. I powergame.
Having weaknesses is some superhero shit, I'm playing D&D.
On a serious note though, the main reason I powergame (I don't do it very often, but when I do I'm the best), is to piss off anti-powergamers.
You know the type, the clowns who think characters that are deliberately bad at what they do is in ANY WAY better than characters that are competent.
When those players are around, I'll powergame to the moon and back, just to ruin their fun.
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
Very e
"Narrate for me a campaign specific memory in your character's experience that would bring them to make this decision and I'll allow it." Otherwise, they're meta gaming. This quickly cuts out all combos and magic/science cheese
Quickly cuts out any backstory the character has
Wow 14 comments mine included I dont play dnd but I want to
Huh, came in expecting another DM just whining about players as per usual.
"Everything players can do, DM can too" is an absolutely shitty take only very bad DMs think is true. Please do not encourage players VS DM mentality, there is plenty already.
Or how about you just stop gatekeeping and let people play the game how they want?
One of the people in my groups loves to minmax (as a fellow player or as one of my players i host for), but they sometimes get too focused on one aspect of their class or character, such as an Artifice Armorer, except he almost ALWAYS punches, and never tries to swap out for ranged hand cannons. He has found that not swapping hurts him when the enemies his group is againt have a lot of ranged options and he can't even reach some of them (mind witnesses for example)
"Dealing" with them is not in the question, it is trying to pull them out of a stuck mindset that we should be after. Make your characters powerful if you want, but don't expect the DM to always accommodate your power fantasy. Hell, i made an enchanter wizard that focused on its intelligence and charisma only to maximize enchantments, but we're playing in a game where tons of creatures are resistant or just immune to charms and/or psychic damage. Ive had to divert plans several times to add other damage types and even take Tensor's Transformation to allow a melee option (found a sword that lets me use charisma instead of strength)
Keep your options open, even if your character has a focus
imho everyh1 iz a power gamer // meta-gamer since its “make believe” & ( PG is advised , i feel , yet hopefuIi E , n simply since its called ttrpg ,, i dont play Omaha anymore yet: wen i heard about its origins, tht waz wen a piece ov mi separated in to the parts ov mi: hwich art: Qai~yuhhzsz ( Kyle con s // w/ an s ) #VictoriousViewingToBoastfulYetNeatlyNetBroacasting #gGsGodspeedOmSoHumAndShamanismPerceivingIiLeads
Ai guess ttrpg by mi art called : Alter-egonance