The difference between polygamy and polyamory is the latter is a personal choice every individual makes for themselves and with their partners while the former is a societal norm. Norma come with pressure and punishment. Polygamy can never be aligned with a modern law and human rights abiding democratic state.
Yes, agreed. There can be no true consent when your salvation for all eternity and that of your entire family is on the line, in addition to all the social pressures as well as one’s livelihood: your job, your housing, your family and friend relationships are all hinging on you towing the line. How could anyone possibly consider this “consent” or “free agency”? There’s nothing ‘free’ about it. The cost is too great.
P.S. On the topic of consent, huge respect for Sam who had to give up contact with half his family, in order to follow his own mind and heart. Thankfully, he had help on the outside in the beginning and was able to succeed. But still, the sacrifice is monumental.
So happy to see y’all talk with people who have left the different groups. Their perspective is great and adds to our understanding. Thanks so much for sharing ❤️
You two are amazing with guests. You make everything comfortable and interesting. Thank you for sharing your story Eskel. I always look forward to your videos, thank you for doing all you do.
I love that even though I’ve followed you guys, Eskel, and Amanda for so long, I still learn something new every video! Great interview, keep ‘em coming! You guys should talk to more people from the Kingstons!
Yay I love Eskel! Love seeing Amanda and him on your channel in the same week. Keep up the great content, so happy for your guys growth and ability to spread a kind and powerful message ❤️
I loved the comparison of numbered men to 2nd anointing! I totally see the similarities! Also the bank system at the Order is super interesting! I always wanted to understand how it was never investigated for bad banking practices or used to prove RICO charges...
As a note from someone who was not LDS and has been inside those stores, the difference is undeniable. It goes beyond it feeling different. It looks different and as a person not affiliated with the order at all and a female, it was very clear, at least to me, that I was out of place and in some cases, unwelcome. Maybe it's because I grew up in the thick of the apostolic polygamous church on the south end of the valley in Riverton, Bluffdale and Herriman and I suppose the north western part of Utah County, like Lehi. They fit in less well. I could just tell that the Order owned certain stores and lived in certain areas. Then again, I am a strong-willed woman and there aren't many men in the mainstream LDS that like having me around.
Do you guys ever look up “ houses for sale in hildale ut “ or Colorado city AZ? I do it all the time just because there are giant interesting houses. There is a house listed as built in 1994, I wonder if Sam helped put it together 🧐
Eskel is such an amazing person! I love that he’s able to tell his story so candidly & still remains so humble & so genuine. He’s such a joy to interview!
I’ve been waiting to see more interviews with other ex polygamist men and women after seeing your interview with your sister Sam and the interviews you both have done with Amanda. You guys are very good at what your doing here on YOUTube. Love ❤️ seeing it keep ‘‘em coming. I enjoy for the most part hearing the different life styles that your guest have and the life changes that happen once you change perspectives as to what your faith once was.
Eskel is sooo good at explaining things. I know it is from his perspective & some things are guesses but, well spoken & good at his trend of thought. I'll have to check out his posts.
I watched the netflix documentary on Warren Jeffs recently and found your channel! Really heartbreaking to hear what people are going through in the Kingston Clan and the FLDS. I'm wondering what you guys think local government officials can do to prevent child marriages and incest in these communities? I feel like no one is really paying attention. Very sad situation for kids who are trapped and have no way out.
These groups have millions of dollars and many businesses so hold considerable power in Utah. The only thing is may help is the exposure and government beyond local to take interest but still not sure how much that would work in the states given their independence in governing (as a Canadian I am not fimlar with your system)
@@denisepace3229 I think increasing exposure is key. Hopefully more Netflix documentaries come out on this topic. Sam and Melissa-- maybe it's time to reach out to Netflix to create your own Netflix series about life after polygamy?!?
It is so hard to say what officials can do to help other than enforce child marriage age requirements. Exposure is definitely the best thing I can think of for now. We would totally be open to sharing our stories on an even more public platform to create awareness. I have no idea how Netflix picks people for their shows though haha.
@Annoying Dayz that is very true! In California, the minimum marriage age is 16 with parent consent- it is very much a state by state legislature/accepted thing on what is acceptable age to marry off your not quite legal adult child.
I think part of the problem is that, for example with the FLDS (before Warren went to prison and later banned all marriages) they all lived in Hildale and Colorado City, and they hired their police officers from within the community. Then you had the law enforcement who was regularly in the community seeing these underaged brides, being okay with it because they were already FLDS. They also had plenty of places to hide so that outside law enforcement wouldn't know where to find them. I think a lot of people didn't know about the underaged marriages until Elissa Wall's testimony in court and book, and by that point Warren went to prison for it. (Although I find it interesting he initially went to prison for assisting in the marriage of a minor, from what I know, Elissa's father or mother did not go to prison, nor did the man they married her to.) I don't think it's that Utah or Arizona were actively turning a blind eye to the situation, so much as the FLDS were incredibly good at hiding it.
Oh I’d never heard the Catholics were the great and abominable church. When I grew up LDS I thought it was just any other church. I am now Catholic, just because I married a Mexican and it holds the traditions of his extended family and is fun to be a part of the family in that way. My real belief is just love.
You are too young to know the temple ceremony that referred to the great and abominable church are Catholic. My second husband was a lovely, considerate, Catholic man.
I even have it noted in my seminary scriptures from like age 14 that it is the catholic church. At this time I would say it is anyone or group besides followers of christ consciousness.
I was raised Catholic, some say that in Revelations when it mentions the whore of Babylon, it's the Catholic church. I tend to believe it as all it's rites and rituals are occult in nature. Like Mormonism, it hides behind the gospel of Jesus Christ. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
How was that.. as i assume you were a flds member then as for me I am lds and its mind boggling to me how ppl can just life within the own community and religion as for me over here in the UK any religion actively practising is very low .. I think sometimes for me it's weird as I have met missionarys who have been born in utah and idaho where school and everything about there areas is so lds church culture so when they come to the UK and see everything outside of utah and our ways of life is such a shock
Bless you in your exit. May you find peace and faith in a loving community, that values grace and freedom - to come or leave as your conscious guides you.
I find learning about these religions so fascinating, also the LDS. I haven't seen anything close to it in Spain (maybe the Opus Dei). I was raised catholic, although I am not religious, and I found it soooo much simpler. Maybe if you get deep enough you start to see also all those random rules and hierarchies. But from a normal member it felt like "come to church and don't kill anybody and you are good to go" 😅
So cool! We ❤️ Eskel. He got so much out of this time with y'all, based on what he shared on his live last Sunday. Also, I grew up Catholic (Gosh, can we have a Catholic woman on a panel sometime?? I found there is a LOT of shaming regarding virginity/not living with your partner until marriage as a young adult). We don't 'blame' any other faiths that I'm aware of, but Catholic people (as all of you do), believe we are the #1 true church of all churches.
Mormonism comes mostly from Protestant churches I guess and well Martin Luther called the Pope the antichrist so its not really a surprise. I was raised Anglican
I thought the Catholic Church would say any religion that doesn't accept jesus christ as there saviour .. my friend is Catholic and he hates the fact I am lds as he says I shouldn't have to have other scriptures than the bible which is kind of confusing when they have the aprocapha
All churches and religions are just cult nonsense, rotf so its like competing over who has the best bullcrap. It is mind boggling how these cults function and that people are abused so severely and so profoundly brainwashed that they believe such total gibberish. Its so sad :(
Not really…they’re fourth and fifth generation growing up in their specific traditions. They had it spoon fed to them from birth. There are many specific things the people from rural south or urban New York that they all grow up learning, and they think their traditions and cultural ways and accents are the best. Same for the Midwest, west coast, and every region of every country in the world. Even every family has set ways of doing things and beliefs, so when couples marry those things often clash and couples have to learn to adapt and compromise. Many don’t do that and conflict rears its head. It’s really hard to change paradigms.
Oh man what a great interview! Eskel - wow cool Name! Never heard it before but it’s so unique and cool. Thanks for spreading the word and shining a light on the lies and manipulation of such a restrictive cult like religion.
Loved this colab! Eskel & Amanda are great! Also caught yous (Sam & Melissa) on Mormon Stories! Congrats on that big colab! Now we need a guys panel and of course more girls panels, lol! Maybe get Sam's sister for a 2nd FLDS perspective since Joanna is so young. Sam's sister would know more going back further. ❤❤❤❤❤
1&2 going up at the same time I was like woooah. Glad I found this one first 💕 We love Eskel and his sisters and cousins ❤️❤️❤️ Eskel said him and Sam are so similar, I’m excited to watch!
Hierarchy of the Order: 1. Paul Kingston 2. The Seven Brothers/Order Board 3. Numbered Men 4. Married, Unmarried Men 5. Women and Children Description: The Kingston group is structured in a numerical manner. Paul Elden Kingston has the lowest number assigned (number 9). All the numbered men with a number lower than Paul Elden Kingston have died. John Ortell Kingston’s seven sons are all numbered in the order, and listed in order: Paul Elden Kingston, assigned number 9; Joseph Ortell Kingston, (deceased) assigned number 14; John Daniel Kingston, Sr., assigned 15; Hyrum Dalton Kingston, assigned 25; David Ortell Kingston, assigned number 33; Jesse Orvil Kingston, assigned number 49; (they are known as the “Seven Kingston brothers”). The seven Kingston brothers are considered royal in the Order and have authority over members of the Order and the Kingston Church. Within the Seven Kingston Brothers there is a hierarchy in which all of the living brothers report to “The Man in the Watch Tower”, Paul Elden Kingston. Paul Elden Kingston and his brother drew on their combined power and authority to govern members and administer Order business and affairs. In addition to the seven Kingston brothers, there are about sixteen other numbered men that serve on the Order Board. Members are expected to follow “The Law of One Above Another” which requires Order members to obey any instructions given to them by the male individual that is “above them,” even if they are instructed to do something immoral, wrong, or illegal. The belief is that by obeying and following The Law of One Above Another you are being obedient to God and will not be punished for any actions you have need instructed to take, instead the individual ordering the action will be punished, if necessary, in the eyes of God. A husband is the “One Above” all his wives and all their unwed children. When a girl or woman is married, her “One Above” changes from her father to her husband. Numbered Men in the Order report to the One Above which is typically Paul Elden Kingston, one of the Seven Kingston Brothers, or to a man on the Order Board. Most of the Order is located in West Jordan in Utah. They have a huge plot of land on Parkway Blvd that houses most of their businesses, warehouses and meeting house. It looks pretty nondescript and only those that know about the Order would suspect that it’s their headquarters.
I worked as a pediatrician in West Valley City for 13 months during my husband’s fellowship training. We kept whole family charts, making seeing 2-3 siblings together easy with a single partitioned chart. The Order families had huge charts (dozens of kids) and dressed a bit different, but were otherwise the same as the rest.
I have been following Amanda on youtube for a bit now. And have seen you guys on Mormon Stories Podcast.. this is all so fascinating! I am in no way religious in any way, only grew up Catholic. So alot of this is just so wild to me.. it blows my mind hearing all these stories and experiences! Biggest red flag so far, the church took all your money!? $5000 to join in!? Wow
Thanks for a great listen! I also appreciate the explanations and background info you guys give for people who don’t have the religious background knowledge!
I'm enjoying your channel: I just found it yesterday! I've watched about 1/2 of this video so far, but wanted to make this comment now so I wouldn't forget! When Eskel was telling about school lunch money being diverted for the Centennial cult's use and how it is openly talked about, you said something that they're going to get caught if they don't keep it quieter. Well, yeah! And isn't that good?
At 12:30 into this I get an ad for Pro Dentim. This is not a "soft sweet candy mineral" that they send you. Essentially it is probiotics for the mouth. It is a small cube that looks like chalk and it tastes like chalk, very dry. I bought some, Just started a few days ago. I'm okay with the product and I will use it daily, but just wanted to tell you that the ad is not all that honest. But I suppose who would buy it if they said what it really looks like and tastes like.
37:00 Being lawful or against the law of the country: because of the persecution in Missouri and the unwillingness of the President (van Buren) to help the Saints, the early church disliked the state. In the early temple ceremony, they swore an oath of vengeance, directed towards the enemies of the church in particular, but also the state in general, meaning the United States of America. This would foster the idea to be above the law.
Can you do a video all about mother Mildred? What was your father and her relationship like? What was her dynamic within the family, what are the funny things she would do etc.
This is at least your second video where everyone is wearing blue. The matching plus polos were the best! I am more amused than I should be. Edit: ok so a ton of your videos... you guys love blue!
As a nevermo, a what priesthood? Uronic? Ironic? Eronic? Aaronic (as in Moses' brother)? I feel like there are so many terms y'all use I can't quite understand. Like "bishop-rig(?) or bishop-ric(?)" etc
Agreed. This channel is making me realize how complicated the LDS is and I really want to understand the reasoning behind this designations and what they mean.
Haha I am so sorry if we gloss over the terminology. We will try to be better about explaining them in more detail as we use them. Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, yes from the Bible. And a Bishopric refers to the Bishop (the leader of a congregation or as the LDS call them "wards") his 1st Counselor, his 2nd Counselor, and his Secretary (which is always a man because they all have to be able to hold the Priesthood).
In the end, this is how all organizations work, even stamp collection societies. When you run an organization, it will have costs, so you have to pay by membership fees. The main question is whether the amount is undue. The big issue I have with LDS tithing is that it combines two incompatible systems: tithing and lay structure. The idea of biblical tithing is to pay the Tribe of Levi, who did not have their own land and thus depended on tithing for their living, but provided priesthood "services". But Mormonism does not have a paid clergy, only the highest layers of the hierarchy are paid, the huge base is volunteering. So either you take 10% and pay every considerable calling (at least bishop level), pay for missionaries, pay for cleaning personal to clean the wards and stake centers. Or you organize a lay church in which most jobs are done by volunteers, but then you drastically reduce the tithing to 1% or even make donations voluntary to cover the marginal costs. Instead,mthe church generates over $1 billion surplus each year, which it funnels to Ensign Peak Advisors to invest in the US stock market, basically becoming a commercial enterprise. Jesus neither taught to build shopping malls nor to set up investment Fonds as part of his church.
I think it would be super interesting to hear you guys on the A Little Bit Culty podcast/having the hosts on your channel. They're from a way different type of cult but you guys are saying things I've heard them saying, especially about members who leave (nothing religious, but the sentiment about how ex members lives must be terrible). It really is fascinating how these patterns are always the same. This was great!
23:00 The description of the priesthood quorums is slightly wrong, in the sense that making the levels a youth program is a modern invention. In the early church in Kirtland, you had the four quorums, each consisting of adult men. It was more about different roles in the church, some more temporal, some more leadership roles, than about educating boys and introducing them to the church hierarchy early on. Similarly, the original concept of a bishop was much more about organizing and allotting land in Independence and funneling funds from Kirtland to Independence rather than managing a ward. In that sense, Sam's and Eskel's description of real hierarchies within the priesthood are closer to the original than the current LDS structure of a youth program.
40:50 Thank You Sam for putting that on the record. We don't roll like that. We play nice with others. (Well for the most part. But I'm not here to go into a giant history lesson nor an examination of the catechism). For the most part, we're just like y'all do your thing we'll do our thing (in present times anyways).
i remember thinking when eskel left, he had a car and a job, i watched his sister cami's story she left with no car and only 300 dollars, it seems so scary and stressful
Thank you for sharing your story. Always so fascinating to learn about what it was like growing up within other fundamentalist groups that connect to J.Smith and mormonism. Sad to hear how public money is being misused by Kingston group and also FLDS. Iam sure there are not the only ones:(
I was thinking about him while watching the Women Panel with Amanda cause I knew they are siblings. And I was wondering if he was still going to the LDS church
I have a question about the FLDS. For the construction work, did the FLDS do construction work for non members? Like did would they take a job from someone not in the religion?
Yes, the FLDS construction companies were very successful and worked all over the country. They even helped with big commercial buildings like Walmarts as well. As long as they brought in a lot of money, it was ok if they worked for anyone. The only thing that wasn't allowed was working for "Apostates" (people who had left the religion).
I think they did any work available to them apart from what they call apostates.. for me to be fair if I lived over in utah I probably would look for an ex flds construction worker as they work hard and the quality of the work seems to be very good ..
I love Eskel's sense of the ridiculous. It is so sane and so honest. It made me sad when I listened to later videos and I heard the pain, guilt, confusion in the voices of others, even defending illogical ideas they claim to no longer endorse. Because that ambivalence regarding reality/basic common sense vs.what one's been taught (indoctrinated to believe) leaves the door open to manipulation and control. Eskel clearly recognizes and responds to what his own senses recognize. "I forgot I'm not supposed to like black people" because when faced with a likeable black person it doesn't make since. His heart and honest and sane rational logic are his salvation. Not following an infinite number of random irrational rules. As though living the lies we tell you to believe is what God wants of you, as though that is serving God. The incredible soul suffering from the twisted thinking and appalling abuse of people, children with no support for having a mind/conscience of their own is so heartbreaking especially given such profound desire to be a good person and please God.
53:00 I have to disagree. [cult] Women marry because they believe their soul depends on it. When they have children that believe they could take their salvation if they leave. They are under cohersion, spiritual manipulation. People in ethical polyamory choose partners for who they are and what they can fulfill in other's lives. It isn't just a man and mistresses, although there are certainly those. Ethical Polyamory has unique dynamics and boundaries which hold each other accountable, and if it doesn't work out there isn't an eternal consequence. Edit: clarify why/who some marry
I know this is a bit personal but I would love to know what you guys believe now if you felt like sharing. I appreciate all you are doing to make people aware and hopefully helping those who want to leave get information so that they can make the best decisions for themselves. I really enjoyed the woman's panel you did and this is interesting to hear from the men's point of view.
They have shared their current religious beliefs in older videos. I could be wrong but I believe Sam went from FLDS to LDS to more of an atheistic perspective but I could be off about the last part. I know they did leave the LDS church as well.
Yeah Catholics don’t view any of the other Churches as a Church of the devil. They want everyone to be apart of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church views the Protestant Churches as temporarily departed brethren, who’s members will be reunited with them in heaven. The idea of a man having multiple wives is very unnerving to me, it is in my view adulterous.
1:07:00 Lies about people leaving: it is quite common in the LDS church to make assumptions about why people left. "they wanted to sin.", "They got offended by a member." are the two goto reasons. And members are afraid to ask, because the answer might shake their own faith.
The Kingston believe they have the highest priesthood on earth and it's a secret sacred priesthood. Higher than the Melchizedek priesthood. At least that's what I remember, I used to be married to a Kingston.
9:30 😂 does charging people to join the church help or hurt? the point is probably to deter people from looking into it as an option, from what I know of the Kingston group they don't want to muddy the bloodline
Only elite members eg wealth and status in the church get 2nd Anointing. Couples are recommended by higher leaders who have already received it along with their wives
I cannot imagine my mother needing to compete with ANY other woman for my father’s attention! It would have been hell. « Numbered men. ». It sounds like the Mob to me. I have concern about the safety of young boys during construction work. It seems to me very much like work for full grown (or very nearly-full grown) people.
I found your channel a while back and have slowly watched so many of your videos. I have been a Christian for so long and so many of the rules and terms you guys use I have never heard. The amount of rules that must be followed in all 3 are somewhat astounding and the celestial kingdom I believe is a different interpretation of Heaven than main stream Christians believe. We believe there is only one God and you will never become a God but the goal of Christianity is to live your life like Christ via his principles and you are saved by grace and love the Father has for you which is why he sent his son Jesus to die for us and tear the vail back between us and heaven. In the new testament I no longer need a person to talk to God but I instead build a relationship with God who is my heavenly Father and when I pass, no strings attached to my works I will live in eternal paradise with him. I can get revelation from either someone or directly from God to myself. Sorry and lastly that we are taught to be a light on a hill and being in the world but not of the world. We are taught Jesus ate with sinners, talked with sinners and through his acceptance and non judgment if them he was able to change their heart. We believe God to be a gentlemen never forceful but by the works of love whether it be to other man kind, family etc that is your testimony that is your message. Either way I love to learn because the Bible also teaches that my people perish from a lack of knowledge and to reach someone you have to understand them. You all be blessed and I will pray for you along your journey through discovering whatever it is God wants to impart into your lives.
If you limit a girl's or boy's education and teach them from birth that they will go to hell if they leave the church and don't live the polygamist lifestyle, that is coercion. Also, they teach that people outside the church are dangerous or bad or will cause you harm. There is a lot of fear involved and that fear is not based in reality.
Very interesting. When Eskel was talking about the Temple Square temple and his father saying it was really theirs that reminded me of here in the UK where we Catholics did own almost all of our very old 1000 year old etc churches but Henry VIII when he broke from the Catholic church stole them all and we have never had them back and had to build new ones. As for who is "above" catholics in theory " And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it". However there would certainly have been a time between Christ and the formation of the Catholic church so if any of this is true at all I am sure the Catholicism of our family has no more claim to the truth than anyone. (1.3billion Catholics of about 7 bn people on the planet, 2.38 billion Christians (debatable if most Christians regard LDS as Christian I suppose so not sure if included in that) and 2 billion muslims (second largest religion). LDS about 16m. FLDS and Kingstons may be at most 10,000 each. Mind you hear in England more people don't believe in God now than do which is a sea change in my own lifetime and I am probably now in that category.
I live in the UK too however I tend to agree with you allot don't believe.. however I know in my ward there is about 500 to 600 members on the papers to say they live in the area however 100 to 120 ppl in regular attendance each week this doesn't include children under the age of 16 .. I am actually inactive however I actually believe its just situation in right now doesn't make attending easy..
The whole polygamy vs mistresses thing is exactly the excuse that Winston Blackmore (Canadian who was kicked out by Rulan Jeffs and started his own offshoot polygamy group) used when someone interviewed him about his multiple wives. Honestly i dont disagree with that arguement either. Not saying i necessarily agree with polygamy but also polyamorous couples are becoming more and more common. It's definitely not as black and white as many would think it is.
The big plus about "secular polyamory" is that the consent form the women is much more probable (I cannot rule out any situation where there is a lack of consent), since there is no narrative of depending on polygamy for salvation. In religious polygamy, you cannot get 100% consent, because the members are already biased due to their religious upbringing that polygamy is God's will. In secular polyamory, women who are not interested in a guy can basically just say no.
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The "Consent" thing is mybissue with it all. If you are threatened with being separated from your family forever....that's blackmail, not consent.
The difference between polygamy and polyamory is the latter is a personal choice every individual makes for themselves and with their partners while the former is a societal norm. Norma come with pressure and punishment. Polygamy can never be aligned with a modern law and human rights abiding democratic state.
Yes, agreed. There can be no true consent when your salvation for all eternity and that of your entire family is on the line, in addition to all the social pressures as well as one’s livelihood: your job, your housing, your family and friend relationships are all hinging on you towing the line. How could anyone possibly consider this “consent” or “free agency”? There’s nothing ‘free’ about it. The cost is too great.
P.S. On the topic of consent, huge respect for Sam who had to give up contact with half his family, in order to follow his own mind and heart. Thankfully, he had help on the outside in the beginning and was able to succeed. But still, the sacrifice is monumental.
Yes!
Chuckling as I listen to Eskel. Appreciate his sacarstic/ humorous comments about the Order.
So happy to see y’all talk with people who have left the different groups. Their perspective is great and adds to our understanding. Thanks so much for sharing ❤️
You two are amazing with guests. You make everything comfortable and interesting. Thank you for sharing your story Eskel. I always look forward to your videos, thank you for doing all you do.
Thank you so much!
S
THE INTERVIEW IS AMAZING 👏 🙌 😍
Thank you Sam,Melissa and Eskel!! Sending love,light and happiness 🌻💛
Eskel!!! Love that guy. So happy yall have him on. 🥰
Good content, thanks for helping Eskel with the redirect to his channel. You two regularly demonstrate true kindness in quiet ways.
I love that even though I’ve followed you guys, Eskel, and Amanda for so long, I still learn something new every video! Great interview, keep ‘em coming! You guys should talk to more people from the Kingstons!
Great guest guys! I applaud all of you for having the courage to get out when you did.. thanks for sharing your stories... they're very insightful.
Yay I love Eskel! Love seeing Amanda and him on your channel in the same week. Keep up the great content, so happy for your guys growth and ability to spread a kind and powerful message ❤️
Thank you so much!
It is amazing how well adjusted and funny these guys are despite being raised in insanity!
Beard looks good on you Sam!
What a wonderful young man who deserves to be blessed with a beautiful life now
I loved the comparison of numbered men to 2nd anointing!
I totally see the similarities!
Also the bank system at the Order is super interesting! I always wanted to understand how it was never investigated for bad banking practices or used to prove RICO charges...
such a level headed young man! so bright and intelligent. loved this interview. all the best...
As a note from someone who was not LDS and has been inside those stores, the difference is undeniable. It goes beyond it feeling different. It looks different and as a person not affiliated with the order at all and a female, it was very clear, at least to me, that I was out of place and in some cases, unwelcome.
Maybe it's because I grew up in the thick of the apostolic polygamous church on the south end of the valley in Riverton, Bluffdale and Herriman and I suppose the north western part of Utah County, like Lehi. They fit in less well.
I could just tell that the Order owned certain stores and lived in certain areas. Then again, I am a strong-willed woman and there aren't many men in the mainstream LDS that like having me around.
Do you guys ever look up “ houses for sale in hildale ut “ or Colorado city AZ?
I do it all the time just because there are giant interesting houses.
There is a house listed as built in 1994, I wonder if Sam helped put it together 🧐
He would have only been like 4 or 5 then so probably not.
Melissa- I look them up on Zillow all the time haha. =)
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy you guys could totally do a reaction video to seeing those Zillow listings!!
Loving how many videos you guys are putting out!
Thank you!
Sam and Melissa's great vibe and questions along with Eskel's sense of humor and quick thorough answers made this a delight to watch. Thanks guys.
Eskel is such an amazing person! I love that he’s able to tell his story so candidly & still remains so humble & so genuine. He’s such a joy to interview!
Love that y’all are discussing this openly.
I’ve been waiting to see more interviews with other ex polygamist men and women after seeing your interview with your sister Sam and the interviews you both have done with Amanda. You guys are very good at what your doing here on YOUTube. Love ❤️ seeing it keep ‘‘em coming. I enjoy for the most part hearing the different life styles that your guest have and the life changes that happen once you change perspectives as to what your faith once was.
Hiiii I’m so happy you had Eskel on!!!! ❤️
Eskel is sooo good at explaining things. I know it is from his perspective & some things are guesses but, well spoken & good at his trend of thought. I'll have to check out his posts.
I watched the netflix documentary on Warren Jeffs recently and found your channel! Really heartbreaking to hear what people are going through in the Kingston Clan and the FLDS. I'm wondering what you guys think local government officials can do to prevent child marriages and incest in these communities? I feel like no one is really paying attention. Very sad situation for kids who are trapped and have no way out.
These groups have millions of dollars and many businesses so hold considerable power in Utah. The only thing is may help is the exposure and government beyond local to take interest but still not sure how much that would work in the states given their independence in governing (as a Canadian I am not fimlar with your system)
@@denisepace3229 I think increasing exposure is key. Hopefully more Netflix documentaries come out on this topic. Sam and Melissa-- maybe it's time to reach out to Netflix to create your own Netflix series about life after polygamy?!?
It is so hard to say what officials can do to help other than enforce child marriage age requirements. Exposure is definitely the best thing I can think of for now. We would totally be open to sharing our stories on an even more public platform to create awareness. I have no idea how Netflix picks people for their shows though haha.
@Annoying Dayz that is very true! In California, the minimum marriage age is 16 with parent consent- it is very much a state by state legislature/accepted thing on what is acceptable age to marry off your not quite legal adult child.
I think part of the problem is that, for example with the FLDS (before Warren went to prison and later banned all marriages) they all lived in Hildale and Colorado City, and they hired their police officers from within the community. Then you had the law enforcement who was regularly in the community seeing these underaged brides, being okay with it because they were already FLDS. They also had plenty of places to hide so that outside law enforcement wouldn't know where to find them. I think a lot of people didn't know about the underaged marriages until Elissa Wall's testimony in court and book, and by that point Warren went to prison for it. (Although I find it interesting he initially went to prison for assisting in the marriage of a minor, from what I know, Elissa's father or mother did not go to prison, nor did the man they married her to.) I don't think it's that Utah or Arizona were actively turning a blind eye to the situation, so much as the FLDS were incredibly good at hiding it.
Oh I’d never heard the Catholics were the great and abominable church. When I grew up LDS I thought it was just any other church. I am now Catholic, just because I married a Mexican and it holds the traditions of his extended family and is fun to be a part of the family in that way. My real belief is just love.
I was raised Catholic and I see many issues with its structure and others things. Just where I'm at.
You are too young to know the temple ceremony that referred to the great and abominable church are Catholic. My second husband was a lovely, considerate, Catholic man.
I even have it noted in my seminary scriptures from like age 14 that it is the catholic church. At this time I would say it is anyone or group besides followers of christ consciousness.
I was raised Catholic, some say that in Revelations when it mentions the whore of Babylon, it's the Catholic church. I tend to believe it as all it's rites and rituals are occult in nature. Like Mormonism, it hides behind the gospel of Jesus Christ. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
Totally with your statement, “My real belief is just love.” ❤👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Great episode!
Found your channel through Amanda and Eskel. I love listening to you both. You do a great job interviewing people.
What a great interview!
People don't believe me when I say I lived in an FDLS community, and what it was like, thanks for speaking the truth
How was that.. as i assume you were a flds member then as for me I am lds and its mind boggling to me how ppl can just life within the own community and religion as for me over here in the UK any religion actively practising is very low ..
I think sometimes for me it's weird as I have met missionarys who have been born in utah and idaho where school and everything about there areas is so lds church culture so when they come to the UK and see everything outside of utah and our ways of life is such a shock
Bless you in your exit. May you find peace and faith in a loving community, that values grace and freedom - to come or leave as your conscious guides you.
Never clicked on a video so fast!
Another great interview! I'm really enjoying these longer videos.
Wonderful 😊 Can't wait for O2 👊😉
I find learning about these religions so fascinating, also the LDS. I haven't seen anything close to it in Spain (maybe the Opus Dei). I was raised catholic, although I am not religious, and I found it soooo much simpler. Maybe if you get deep enough you start to see also all those random rules and hierarchies. But from a normal member it felt like "come to church and don't kill anybody and you are good to go" 😅
Take a look at the People of Praise. It’s a “Catholic” religious community that I grew up in that has become very fundamentalist and cult-like.
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is in Spain!
@@MsCrazymomof3 it sure is I am actually friends with someone serving over there right now ..
All religions groups are just damaging cults.
Ahhh! I’ve been wondering how eskel has been doing! Also, Sam your hair cut looks lovely!
You should check out his RUclips and he has Patreon too :)
These videos are great!
Thank you for another insightful video. You both do an amazing job
Thank you so much!
So cool! We ❤️ Eskel. He got so much out of this time with y'all, based on what he shared on his live last Sunday. Also, I grew up Catholic (Gosh, can we have a Catholic woman on a panel sometime?? I found there is a LOT of shaming regarding virginity/not living with your partner until marriage as a young adult). We don't 'blame' any other faiths that I'm aware of, but Catholic people (as all of you do), believe we are the #1 true church of all churches.
Mormonism comes mostly from Protestant churches I guess and well Martin Luther called the Pope the antichrist so its not really a surprise. I was raised Anglican
I thought the Catholic Church would say any religion that doesn't accept jesus christ as there saviour .. my friend is Catholic and he hates the fact I am lds as he says I shouldn't have to have other scriptures than the bible which is kind of confusing when they have the aprocapha
All churches and religions are just cult nonsense, rotf so its like competing over who has the best bullcrap. It is mind boggling how these cults function and that people are abused so severely and so profoundly brainwashed that they believe such total gibberish. Its so sad :(
I have to keep telling myself that these people know no different, but the leaders absolutely know they are full of crap
Not really…they’re fourth and fifth generation growing up in their specific traditions. They had it spoon fed to them from birth. There are many specific things the people from rural south or urban New York that they all grow up learning, and they think their traditions and cultural ways and accents are the best. Same for the Midwest, west coast, and every region of every country in the world. Even every family has set ways of doing things and beliefs, so when couples marry those things often clash and couples have to learn to adapt and compromise. Many don’t do that and conflict rears its head. It’s really hard to change paradigms.
Oh man what a great interview! Eskel - wow cool Name! Never heard it before but it’s so unique and cool. Thanks for spreading the word and shining a light on the lies and manipulation of such a restrictive cult like religion.
Do you think you could get someone from the AUB group. I would love to hear from Jesse and his two wives that were on escaping polygamy
Loved this colab! Eskel & Amanda are great! Also caught yous (Sam & Melissa) on Mormon Stories! Congrats on that big colab! Now we need a guys panel and of course more girls panels, lol! Maybe get Sam's sister for a 2nd FLDS perspective since Joanna is so young. Sam's sister would know more going back further. ❤❤❤❤❤
I live in Pennsylvania and I am DYINGGG to know about the order members in my state
love this interivew, cant wait for pt 2 on eskels channel!
@Annoying Dayz yeah i just went and watched, thank you!
Great content. Really good interview.
I dont want to offend anyone but this is craaaaaaaazyyyyyy.... Good for Ezkiel he got out.
Yay Eskel!! ❤❤
Sam’s minion cup lol 💖 I love learning about other people, so I enjoy these videos about other religions and how people grew up.
1&2 going up at the same time I was like woooah.
Glad I found this one first 💕
We love Eskel and his sisters and cousins ❤️❤️❤️
Eskel said him and Sam are so similar, I’m excited to watch!
Have been looking forward for this i started with part 2 for 10 minutes tho then realised
Eskel part 2?
@@Abby-00 yeah eskels story part 2 is on his channel
@@jaynekendall3049 😮 oh! Thank you!
@@Abby-00 no worries glad i could help i just watched part 1&2 they were good x
Love when you guys docolabs with other ex fundamentalists ♥️♥️
Just discovered your channel. Very informative, thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Hierarchy of the Order:
1. Paul Kingston
2. The Seven Brothers/Order Board
3. Numbered Men
4. Married, Unmarried Men
5. Women and Children
Description:
The Kingston group is structured in a numerical manner. Paul Elden Kingston has the lowest number assigned (number 9). All the numbered men with a number lower than Paul Elden Kingston have died. John Ortell Kingston’s seven sons are all numbered in the order, and listed in order: Paul Elden Kingston, assigned number 9; Joseph Ortell Kingston, (deceased) assigned number 14; John Daniel Kingston, Sr., assigned 15; Hyrum Dalton Kingston, assigned 25; David Ortell Kingston, assigned number 33; Jesse Orvil Kingston, assigned number 49; (they are known as the “Seven Kingston brothers”).
The seven Kingston brothers are considered royal in the Order and have authority over members of the Order and the Kingston Church. Within the Seven Kingston Brothers there is a hierarchy in which all of the living brothers report to “The Man in the Watch Tower”, Paul Elden Kingston. Paul Elden Kingston and his brother drew on their combined power and authority to govern members and administer Order business and affairs.
In addition to the seven Kingston brothers, there are about sixteen other numbered men that serve on the Order Board. Members are expected to follow “The Law of One Above Another” which requires Order members to obey any instructions given to them by the male individual that is “above them,” even if they are instructed to do something immoral, wrong, or illegal. The belief is that by obeying and following The Law of One Above Another you are being obedient to God and will not be punished for any actions you have need instructed to take, instead the individual ordering the action will be punished, if necessary, in the eyes of God.
A husband is the “One Above” all his wives and all their unwed children. When a girl or woman is married, her “One Above” changes from her father to her husband.
Numbered Men in the Order report to the One Above which is typically Paul Elden Kingston, one of the Seven Kingston Brothers, or to a man on the Order Board.
Most of the Order is located in West Jordan in Utah. They have a huge plot of land on Parkway Blvd that houses most of their businesses, warehouses and meeting house. It looks pretty nondescript and only those that know about the Order would suspect that it’s their headquarters.
I admire Eskel for his courage through adversity and yet he smiles a lot.
I worked as a pediatrician in West Valley City for 13 months during my husband’s fellowship training. We kept whole family charts, making seeing 2-3 siblings together easy with a single partitioned chart. The Order families had huge charts (dozens of kids) and dressed a bit different, but were otherwise the same as the rest.
Were you ever worried about the kids being abused or their growth charts?
I have been following Amanda on youtube for a bit now. And have seen you guys on Mormon Stories Podcast.. this is all so fascinating! I am in no way religious in any way, only grew up Catholic. So alot of this is just so wild to me.. it blows my mind hearing all these stories and experiences! Biggest red flag so far, the church took all your money!? $5000 to join in!? Wow
Thanks for a great listen! I also appreciate the explanations and background info you guys give for people who don’t have the religious background knowledge!
I'm enjoying your channel: I just found it yesterday! I've watched about 1/2 of this video so far, but wanted to make this comment now so I wouldn't forget! When Eskel was telling about school lunch money being diverted for the Centennial cult's use and how it is openly talked about, you said something that they're going to get caught if they don't keep it quieter. Well, yeah! And isn't that good?
At 12:30 into this I get an ad for Pro Dentim. This is not a "soft sweet candy mineral" that they send you. Essentially it is probiotics for the mouth. It is a small cube that looks like chalk and it tastes like chalk, very dry. I bought some, Just started a few days ago. I'm okay with the product and I will use it daily, but just wanted to tell you that the ad is not all that honest. But I suppose who would buy it if they said what it really looks like and tastes like.
😂😂😂
Great video, very informative.
I’m from Central Pennsylvania, and I’m super curious where the PA sect is.
I would love to know as well!
37:00 Being lawful or against the law of the country: because of the persecution in Missouri and the unwillingness of the President (van Buren) to help the Saints, the early church disliked the state. In the early temple ceremony, they swore an oath of vengeance, directed towards the enemies of the church in particular, but also the state in general, meaning the United States of America. This would foster the idea to be above the law.
The thing you called second anointing, is it the same as “calling and election made true”?
Yes, same thing.
Can you do a video all about mother Mildred? What was your father and her relationship like? What was her dynamic within the family, what are the funny things she would do etc.
Wow, Sam! Loving your growing beard!
This is at least your second video where everyone is wearing blue. The matching plus polos were the best! I am more amused than I should be.
Edit: ok so a ton of your videos... you guys love blue!
Haha so true. We really don't try, but we both have blue eyes and so we end up with a lot of blue in our wardrobe haha.
As a nevermo, a what priesthood? Uronic? Ironic? Eronic? Aaronic (as in Moses' brother)? I feel like there are so many terms y'all use I can't quite understand. Like "bishop-rig(?) or bishop-ric(?)" etc
Agreed. This channel is making me realize how complicated the LDS is and I really want to understand the reasoning behind this designations and what they mean.
Haha I am so sorry if we gloss over the terminology. We will try to be better about explaining them in more detail as we use them. Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, yes from the Bible. And a Bishopric refers to the Bishop (the leader of a congregation or as the LDS call them "wards") his 1st Counselor, his 2nd Counselor, and his Secretary (which is always a man because they all have to be able to hold the Priesthood).
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy Thank you!
The idea of someone (other than govt) demanding my money when I don’t have to pay it is so foreign to me.
In the end, this is how all organizations work, even stamp collection societies. When you run an organization, it will have costs, so you have to pay by membership fees. The main question is whether the amount is undue. The big issue I have with LDS tithing is that it combines two incompatible systems: tithing and lay structure. The idea of biblical tithing is to pay the Tribe of Levi, who did not have their own land and thus depended on tithing for their living, but provided priesthood "services". But Mormonism does not have a paid clergy, only the highest layers of the hierarchy are paid, the huge base is volunteering. So either you take 10% and pay every considerable calling (at least bishop level), pay for missionaries, pay for cleaning personal to clean the wards and stake centers. Or you organize a lay church in which most jobs are done by volunteers, but then you drastically reduce the tithing to 1% or even make donations voluntary to cover the marginal costs. Instead,mthe church generates over $1 billion surplus each year, which it funnels to Ensign Peak Advisors to invest in the US stock market, basically becoming a commercial enterprise. Jesus neither taught to build shopping malls nor to set up investment Fonds as part of his church.
I always look forward to your videos posting! The similarities are so interesting!
After this video I am extremely curious about garments in the Kingston Group.
Can you illuminate me?
From my understanding they only wear garments in death. Amanda speaks about it during the women's panel.
I think it would be super interesting to hear you guys on the A Little Bit Culty podcast/having the hosts on your channel. They're from a way different type of cult but you guys are saying things I've heard them saying, especially about members who leave (nothing religious, but the sentiment about how ex members lives must be terrible). It really is fascinating how these patterns are always the same. This was great!
This is my favorite podcast right now. Don’t stop.
Aww thank you!
I can tell he is Amanda’s brother. The way they talk is so similar. So cute.☺️
23:00 The description of the priesthood quorums is slightly wrong, in the sense that making the levels a youth program is a modern invention. In the early church in Kirtland, you had the four quorums, each consisting of adult men. It was more about different roles in the church, some more temporal, some more leadership roles, than about educating boys and introducing them to the church hierarchy early on. Similarly, the original concept of a bishop was much more about organizing and allotting land in Independence and funneling funds from Kirtland to Independence rather than managing a ward. In that sense, Sam's and Eskel's description of real hierarchies within the priesthood are closer to the original than the current LDS structure of a youth program.
40:50 Thank You Sam for putting that on the record. We don't roll like that. We play nice with others. (Well for the most part. But I'm not here to go into a giant history lesson nor an examination of the catechism). For the most part, we're just like y'all do your thing we'll do our thing (in present times anyways).
I'm curious about kids being born with handicaps... I have relatives who grew up in the Kingston group...
i remember thinking when eskel left, he had a car and a job, i watched his sister cami's story she left with no car and only 300 dollars, it seems so scary and stressful
Thank you for sharing your story. Always so fascinating to learn about what it was like growing up within other fundamentalist groups that connect to J.Smith and mormonism.
Sad to hear how public money is being misused by Kingston group and also FLDS. Iam sure there are not the only ones:(
I was thinking about him while watching the Women Panel with Amanda cause I knew they are siblings. And I was wondering if he was still going to the LDS church
He is still LDS :)
He's still LDS but is also questioning I believe, I'm sure they'll get into it in part 2 on his channel!
I have a question about the FLDS. For the construction work, did the FLDS do construction work for non members? Like did would they take a job from someone not in the religion?
I don't think so
I think that is how Sam decided to leave after doing work outside hilldale and meeting a LDS family
Yes, the FLDS construction companies were very successful and worked all over the country. They even helped with big commercial buildings like Walmarts as well. As long as they brought in a lot of money, it was ok if they worked for anyone. The only thing that wasn't allowed was working for "Apostates" (people who had left the religion).
I think they did any work available to them apart from what they call apostates.. for me to be fair if I lived over in utah I probably would look for an ex flds construction worker as they work hard and the quality of the work seems to be very good ..
I dig the outro music so much
Haha thanks!
I love Eskel's sense of the ridiculous. It is so sane and so honest. It made me sad when I listened to later videos and I heard the pain, guilt, confusion in the voices of others, even defending illogical ideas they claim to no longer endorse. Because that ambivalence regarding reality/basic common sense vs.what one's been taught (indoctrinated to believe) leaves the door open to manipulation and control. Eskel clearly recognizes and responds to what his own senses recognize. "I forgot I'm not supposed to like black people" because when faced with a likeable black person it doesn't make since. His heart and honest and sane rational logic are his salvation. Not following an infinite number of random irrational rules. As though living the lies we tell you to believe is what God wants of you, as though that is serving God. The incredible soul suffering from the twisted thinking and appalling abuse of people, children with no support for having a mind/conscience of their own is so heartbreaking especially given such profound desire to be a good person and please God.
It's so weird to hear about the Kingston Group that everyone is so strung along and manipulated . It's sad they starve their members to make money.
53:00 I have to disagree. [cult] Women marry because they believe their soul depends on it. When they have children that believe they could take their salvation if they leave. They are under cohersion, spiritual manipulation.
People in ethical polyamory choose partners for who they are and what they can fulfill in other's lives. It isn't just a man and mistresses, although there are certainly those. Ethical Polyamory has unique dynamics and boundaries which hold each other accountable, and if it doesn't work out there isn't an eternal consequence.
Edit: clarify why/who some marry
I know this is a bit personal but I would love to know what you guys believe now if you felt like sharing. I appreciate all you are doing to make people aware and hopefully helping those who want to leave get information so that they can make the best decisions for themselves. I really enjoyed the woman's panel you did and this is interesting to hear from the men's point of view.
They have shared their current religious beliefs in older videos. I could be wrong but I believe Sam went from FLDS to LDS to more of an atheistic perspective but I could be off about the last part. I know they did leave the LDS church as well.
Check out their interviews on Mormon Stories podcast/u-tube. In part 2 they talk about leaveing the LDS.
Yeah Catholics don’t view any of the other Churches as a Church of the devil. They want everyone to be apart of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church views the Protestant Churches as temporarily departed brethren, who’s members will be reunited with them in heaven.
The idea of a man having multiple wives is very unnerving to me, it is in my view adulterous.
One correction I noticed is Eskel said Brother Ortell was the first prophet of the Kingston group, but it was actually his older brother Elden.
1:07:00 Lies about people leaving: it is quite common in the LDS church to make assumptions about why people left. "they wanted to sin.", "They got offended by a member." are the two goto reasons. And members are afraid to ask, because the answer might shake their own faith.
So happy that I have direct access to Jesus through prayer. And not having to go through all those steps!
The Kingston believe they have the highest priesthood on earth and it's a secret sacred priesthood. Higher than the Melchizedek priesthood. At least that's what I remember, I used to be married to a Kingston.
9:30 😂 does charging people to join the church help or hurt? the point is probably to deter people from looking into it as an option, from what I know of the Kingston group they don't want to muddy the bloodline
Can you talk about 2nd anointing? Maybe a whole video? Can women be 2nd anointed?
Never heard of it…. And I am an active Latter Day Saint ♥️
Only elite members eg wealth and status in the church get 2nd Anointing. Couples are recommended by higher leaders who have already received it along with their wives
I think Jordan and McKay have a whole video on Second Anointing!
We may do a video on it in the future. We would just want to take time to present it in the most respectful way possible.
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy Is there a way to privately message you?
Mormon Stories #984 for Elder and SisterMaddson from Sweden.
Last question for the 3 of you. Any regrets?
I love Eskel. He’s the best
I cannot imagine my mother needing to compete with ANY other woman for my father’s attention! It would have been hell.
« Numbered men. ». It sounds like the Mob to me.
I have concern about the safety of young boys during construction work. It seems to me very much like work for full grown (or very nearly-full grown) people.
I found your channel a while back and have slowly watched so many of your videos. I have been a Christian for so long and so many of the rules and terms you guys use I have never heard. The amount of rules that must be followed in all 3 are somewhat astounding and the celestial kingdom I believe is a different interpretation of Heaven than main stream Christians believe. We believe there is only one God and you will never become a God but the goal of Christianity is to live your life like Christ via his principles and you are saved by grace and love the Father has for you which is why he sent his son Jesus to die for us and tear the vail back between us and heaven. In the new testament I no longer need a person to talk to God but I instead build a relationship with God who is my heavenly Father and when I pass, no strings attached to my works I will live in eternal paradise with him. I can get revelation from either someone or directly from God to myself. Sorry and lastly that we are taught to be a light on a hill and being in the world but not of the world. We are taught Jesus ate with sinners, talked with sinners and through his acceptance and non judgment if them he was able to change their heart. We believe God to be a gentlemen never forceful but by the works of love whether it be to other man kind, family etc that is your testimony that is your message.
Either way I love to learn because the Bible also teaches that my people perish from a lack of knowledge and to reach someone you have to understand them.
You all be blessed and I will pray for you along your journey through discovering whatever it is God wants to impart into your lives.
If you limit a girl's or boy's education and teach them from birth that they will go to hell if they leave the church and don't live the polygamist lifestyle, that is coercion. Also, they teach that people outside the church are dangerous or bad or will cause you harm. There is a lot of fear involved and that fear is not based in reality.
Escaping Polygamy was a great series. I remember one of the women who was leaving had a lot of trouble getting her $ out of the Order bank
Very interesting. When Eskel was talking about the Temple Square temple and his father saying it was really theirs that reminded me of here in the UK where we Catholics did own almost all of our very old 1000 year old etc churches but Henry VIII when he broke from the Catholic church stole them all and we have never had them back and had to build new ones. As for who is "above" catholics in theory " And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it". However there would certainly have been a time between Christ and the formation of the Catholic church so if any of this is true at all I am sure the Catholicism of our family has no more claim to the truth than anyone. (1.3billion Catholics of about 7 bn people on the planet, 2.38 billion Christians (debatable if most Christians regard LDS as Christian I suppose so not sure if included in that) and 2 billion muslims (second largest religion). LDS about 16m. FLDS and Kingstons may be at most 10,000 each. Mind you hear in England more people don't believe in God now than do which is a sea change in my own lifetime and I am probably now in that category.
I live in the UK too however I tend to agree with you allot don't believe.. however I know in my ward there is about 500 to 600 members on the papers to say they live in the area however 100 to 120 ppl in regular attendance each week this doesn't include children under the age of 16 ..
I am actually inactive however I actually believe its just situation in right now doesn't make attending easy..
The whole polygamy vs mistresses thing is exactly the excuse that Winston Blackmore (Canadian who was kicked out by Rulan Jeffs and started his own offshoot polygamy group) used when someone interviewed him about his multiple wives. Honestly i dont disagree with that arguement either. Not saying i necessarily agree with polygamy but also polyamorous couples are becoming more and more common. It's definitely not as black and white as many would think it is.
The big plus about "secular polyamory" is that the consent form the women is much more probable (I cannot rule out any situation where there is a lack of consent), since there is no narrative of depending on polygamy for salvation. In religious polygamy, you cannot get 100% consent, because the members are already biased due to their religious upbringing that polygamy is God's will. In secular polyamory, women who are not interested in a guy can basically just say no.