As a mono nurgle player, it feels like they were super terrified about the durable subfaction actually being durable for the points. Plaguebearers are roughly twice as tough now as they were but cost roughly twice as much....so they're really not any tougher than their garbage 8th edition state. And Great Unclean One's just kinda die because the only thing that makes them tough is having a high Toughness trait...but when so much of the game gives you +1 to wound...or flat-out skips the wound roll to begin with...they just die. To basically everything. They're just as tough as the other 3 greater daemons but do significantly less damage with less mobility and a giant fucking base. I dunno. Nurgle feels awful.
as someone that went in with mono khorne, and was considering diving into doing duo khorne/nurgle. seeing the nurgle stuff was so depressing... then seeing that flamers are so damn strong... the daemons are shelved.
@@vice1219 Please go away with that loser attitude. They should all be viable and internally competitive. GW are terrible at balance. This is the problem. There is no disputing this.
How would the "toxic plaguebearer-spam" even work, when Plaguebearers are confined to 10 models per squad? Did GW expect people to bring double Battalions for 12x10 Plaguebearers?
Yes please. At the very least I wish Troops in the Daemon Codex were considered 'Agents of Chaos' by default for each respective Legion. I'd love to field some Daemonettes in my EC list for fun but taking a CP kick to the balls just to field Troops means 'hell no' to that idea. Sure, I could field a Patrol w/ an HQ and Daemonttes but that starts warping (kek) too much of my list.
Honestly, what I would love is just 3 ENORMOUS codexes, like 3 corebook sized, With each alliance (xenos, chaos, imperium) and that's it, thanks we're done. And while at it, normalize chaos soup, xeno soup and imperial soup
I think GW accidentally scored a minor win by having Khorne Daemons be the only ones, thus far, to make the transition to Combat Patrol. Because they ended up being the only one of the four "subfactions" that's actually playable. Well, other than Flamer spam, and as we've seen it doesn't need to be Chaos Daemons for that.
They put all their Flamers into the AoS Tzeentch and Tzangor box, which is why they(flamers) were conveniently sold out everywhere for the last few months.
(Brad here) If you notice a few minor editing issues on this episode, sorry in advance. It was kind of a crunch to get this one out on time during a holiday week. Also sorry in advance if you aren't a fan of more negative episodes. I don't want to devolve into ragebait content, but I needed to get this out of my system... This book SUCKS! If for some reason you want more of this topic, I spent about 2.5 hours ranting to Eric originally and there's a longer one hour cut on our audio feeds: poorhammer.libsyn.com/episode-42-dissecting-a-daemonic-disaster
Also, you missed a huge point with dark invigoration, the one troop made to be all round durable, the Plague bearer, isn't affected by it. And why did they nerf disciples of be'lakor...
As a Ynarri player who fell in love with their fluff I feel your pain. The new codex has them be craftworlds with two squads of harlequin troups. It's incredibly infuriating.
As a Dedicated Chaos player, and lover of Chaos Daemons, I 100% agree with doing Codex Nurgle, with Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons mixed, and so on and so on for each. Imagine how much Codex World Eaters would've benefited from that. They could even say - If your Warlord is a Daemon, Plaguebearers become troops, if your General is an Astartes, Plague Marines become Troops. It'd be so clean and elegant.
Just finished the video after it popped up in my recomendations tab and I gotta say good job guys, very informative, well spoken and edited, you've earned yourself a sub! keep up the great work
I wonder how busted it would have been to give Nurgle 5+++ vs damage 1 (and mortals). Maybe give them a warp storm power to make that 5+++ vs anything . Anyway, great talk!
I remember back in the 2nd Ed days when daemons were massively powerful - with a high points cost attached. Back then the rules for Daemon armies were that only other Daemon armies could fight against them (in lore these battles were fought in the warp). The points cost for these armies were 100k+ for an "average" battle. It sounds like GW has spent the last 7 editions trying to get Daemon armies to fit where they don't belong, and are fucking it up in a way only GW can.
Good review. As a Competitive Slaanesh Daemons player (itc #1 for the last 6+months) they did make our Greater Daemons a little tougher with daemon saves, but still only T7, and because they are 20 wounds now they can't hide like they used to... It forces us to put them in the warp to manifest, but then you lose all that speed that you're supposed to have. The points costs are awful when you compare even internally between Daemonettes and Seekers of Slaanesh. Daemonettes for 120 points are 10 models/wounds at T3 and 41 attacks at AP -2. For 100 points you get 5 Seekers/10 wounds at T4 with 21 attacks at -2 and 10 attacks at AP 0.... Why would you take Seekers? They are the same number of wounds, die just as easy as t3 to t4 is a very minor difference and they have less attacks with worse AP. Sure they are faster, but they aren't going to kill if they charge and they will just die when they get shot. Sad times. I won more events with mono Slaanesh Daemons before the new book came out, even going 4-2 at LVO last year, only losing to 2 top 20 placed players including Jack Harpster. Everything is over costed.
So i used to play chaos demons like 10 years ago, and recently got back into the hobby. Your breakdown of the codex was eye opening for me, because I actually enjoyed how little stratagems there were (mind you not realizing that other factions had more, just the fact that i could take a look at the codex online and start playing). One of the things I thought after playing a fluff tzeentch only list was "Nice this feels familiar, flamers used to be super strong and I guess they still are". I think they are in fact even stronger now than they used to be ( not that thats very surprising). I guess we went full circle in a way.
"Each of these should have 40 Stratagems, like every other Codex." Technically, the book - when taken as a whole - has 30 Stratagems. (I'm counting the 4 Relic strats as 1, obv). You would never run more than 1 god in your army, obviously, but you could. Hence, "Chaos Daemons" is an army with 30 strats. Also, can we just examine the flavor fail of not giving Stratagems to the different gods based on their special numbers? Why doesn't Tzeentch have 9 Stratagems? Why does Khorne have 6 and Slaanesh 8, when their numbers are reversed?
@@aprinnyonbreak1290make it notes, not even full sentences “give ur charge + 2” or something similar. On the other hand, give Tzeentch those bloated rules that ask you 3 conditions, but if you can pull it off you get rewarded a lot “if your blue horrors are exactly 6” away from any enemy unit, and there is no brimstone horror model in your blue horror unit, and you haven’t moved in your movement phase, roll 3d6 for the enemy unit; every 2+ is a d6 mortal wounds”
Just happen to stumble upon y'alls channel and I am thoroughly impressed! Love the video format and edits you guys do for your guy's content. From one small channel to another, here's a like follow and a sub. And a best of wishes for your 40k journey for RUclips 🙂
Warp storm, I think that like A: some things need to be just made innate again, its dumb that faction-abilities are now locked behind a random currency. B: Warpstorm points NEED to build up, make it a "Oooo, I'm saving up for a real banger of an ability if you don't deal with me soon" C: There needs to be a passive warpstorm buildup, like atleast 1 point needs to be given no matter what Or heck, you could make it so that warpstorm points build up but you get -1 per turn
Guess who is the best shooter! Is it A. A greater daemon of tzeenth B. A space marine terminator C.A tau tank commander longstrike D.A genestealer cowboy.
Very well articulated critique. I got lucky early on, invested into every Daemon faction during early 9th, and was able to go into Disciples of Be'Lakor. I'm certain that it's the best option right now, because you get to dip into the best parts of the book without having to commit to the worst part. I can have War Dogs, Belakor, and all the best daemons, with all their strats, AND I still get to use the mediocre Warp Storm and CK once-per-game Dread ability. My list is still obviously 15 Flamers with troops to go score points, and due to GW's HORRIBLE porting of the Army of Renown and it's strats, there is also no reason to bring Chaos Marines (even tho it's 1/3rd of the point of the AoR). To see how fucky everything is for me, and then to realize I got it better than everyone else did, is astounding to me. I have a laundry list of fixes that I would make JUST FOR DoB. It's a really shitty feeling knowing that not only will GW likely never fix them, but may never even know how badly they dropped the ball in the first place.
As a Nurgle daemon player, I should also add that dark invigoration is borderline useless for us. It can’t revive anything, since plaguebearers and nurglings have too many wounds and beasts of Nurgle won’t be healed because they heal to full wounds every phase. For 5 warp storm points, I should at least be able to revive plaguebearers. At least I won’t ever be tempted to use it, and can spend my warp storm points on something more valuable, like the Nurgle powers or the -1 to hit.
“Imagine if your army rule just didn’t work some turns” …. Actually, if the army rule in question had some sort of baked-in disadvantage… that could be interesting. You could be praying for it to come up in one turn and not another.
Just stumbled across this podcast and love the format and discussion/rant. A great piece to just listen to while building and painting, keep up the great work! Also, the art for both of you is amazing, did you guys get them commissioned and if so, who is the artist?
(Brad here) We use art GW owns because we're way too poor to commission art and GW can shut us down whenever they want anyway. This way we're at least not stealing fan art. My art is from the current Thousand Sons codex, Eric's is from I think 8th edition GK? Our video editor ran them through some processes in photoshop to make them less detailed and more abstract.
Listen, two things in this codex are unequivocally fantastic: -Daemonic Allies/ Manifestation fixing the terrible summoning rules of 8th -Splitting Horrors is factored into the points cost of the models on your datasheet now Warp Storm is underwhelming as an armywide rule, sure, but bringing Daemons in a Chaos Knight list? Banger. Horrors finally being competative? a godsend to people who paid for and painted 50 horrors to have a full splitting unit.
Splitting horrors is so close to being fantastic, but the amount of times they get wiped, and you spent 5-8 extra points on a rule that effectively didn't exist is so frustrating. Manifestation and the spooky morale stuff is great, though
Impressive you managed this kind of video in 35 minutes, most of them are 2+ hours. I wish they had developed the idea of the 'Undivided' daemons they introduced in WHFB 6th/40k 3.5 with chaos Furies etc, i think it would have helped with the power gamer vs army theme thing and the keyword spaghetti that seriously plagues demons to have good 'undivided' choices. Certainly to me would make them a whole lot less unappealing as an army, every army and even artwork that has them all working together like a happy family just grinds my gears.
I'm actually against make god specific books. I want to play daemons. I don't want 4 different armies out of my one. But i can see the appeal people would want for it. The biggest wtf is still the unit cap for troops. like wtf am I suppose to do with 10 daemonettes? they don't hit hard enough to matter and they die to anything.
I am really on the fence about collecting and playing pure demons and this video is such a bummer. (But great job and thanks a lot for bringing these issues to the light!) I hate how in AoS I would have to buy 4 books to play demon. I don't want mortals, just pure demons because of the nice double use of demons in AoS and 40k. Chaos Daemons seem to be lacking though in all those tricky little things like stratagems or "core" that are completely unknown to me as a returning player from 5th...
From 500 subs to 25k in 4 months lol! Love finding channels and seeing how they grown Also 100% agree with pretty much everything!! I think the best thing they could do would be to simply add new unique models for every deamon faction!! Like each faction should have a minimum of 10 unit types, 2HQ’s and a vehicle (like) unit
When i looked at the Daemons codex as an Deathguard player it felt a bit underwhelming. I had to check i hadn’t missed “chapter tactics” like -1 damage for Nurgle.
The short summary of the codex: they replaced most of the weird special rules into simple auras, really buffed the profiles of units (sometimes integrating these old special rules into the flat statline, as in the Slaanesh's speed or Khorne's strength and attacks), and polished it on top with the solid set of army-wide abilities, such as deep-strike and Ld manipulation (which works really great when you have it on everything - the more tests the opponent has to roll, the more fails he'll inevitably make). But at THAT point, GW probably got afraid they'll overbuff the daemons, so the stratagems and the army-specific ability of Warpstorm was written too "safely". It's not a bad codex, I definitely like playing it, but yeah, the lack of the sub-faction specific bonuses is especially glaring.
>sometimes integrating these old special rules into the flat statline, as in the Slaanesh's speed Which is flat out wrong, because a 7" moving, D6+1 advancing Damonette is still faster than a 10" Demonette. A 14"+d6 Fiend is faster than a 14" Fiend. A 14+3+D6 Keeper of Secrets is faster than a 16" Keeper of Secrets. Slaanesh got GUTTED and everyone was pretending they're okay coping "oh wow, Demonettes move 10 inches", which is completely irrelevant because they're 12 POINTS PER MODEL and mandatory 10s. I would rather have 20 old Daemonettes than 10 new ones. Or you know what, I will take 10 Old demonettes, because that is 60 points saved on awful, unuseable troops. But the results speak for themselves: Slaanesh went from the BEST daemon list to basically never seen and we have more 8th Edition Demonettes logged into competitive results than 9th edition Demonettes.
How much do you think storing warp storm points by default would help? My worry is you'll get a fix like that in the next dataslate, and it turns out to be nowhere near enough, and then you have to wait another 3 months to try again.
There are even more bits that just don't work. Horrors have the same issue as necrons; they're priced for splitting, but if they get wiped, it doesn't trigger, meaning they often just... don't split. One of the tzeentch warp storm effects is extra wounds in melee, where we're terrible. The blue scribes now cast random spells at the start of the turn, meaning you can accidentally cast the spell you needed your lord of change to fire off, making it a liability. Screamers are melee only, but have a 4+ ws and a 6+ melee save (can you tell I play tzeentch yet?) Nurgle can't use dark invig properly, as their troops have 2 wounds. And the worst in my opinion: the rule that makes greater daemons _have_ to take the warlord trait means that the ones that were clearly designed for the heralds (such as the to one for getting a cast and an action for something like psychic interrogation) never see play. Even with all that, I prefer it to the malfunctioning stuff we has in 8th, but man, I wish we could catch a break.
In the Tzeentch family, you forgot the joke what the changeling is. A 1 spell caster, with a special rule to perform in melee, ONLY against infantry. Can't take any relic. Cost 20pts more. Just end up in melee and die. Screamer 6+ melee is a pure bad writting. Looking at soulgrinders, being Tzeentch... end up with a better melee save. It's indeed better than the last codex who was left behind without even a single try of help. Even the release of the codex is... special. Absolute 0 new model, so furies are gone. Instead, to avoid being the only codex who get less datasheets in his new codex we got a khorne fortification for priests (so why should I put a duelist on it). It isn't like we could have Dexcessa and Synessa with non named characters rules or even fit a lacking part of heavy support for slaanesh.
BROOOOOOOO.....personally I LOVE that Chaos Daemons is 4 armies that I can mix and match I love the creativity I can unleash with it. God I hope they don't split it up.
Nurgle is essentially just a stat-check. Does your enemy have good shooting or melee of STR 6 or 7, preferably damage 2? If so, you lose! Hurray! Funnily enough, Death Guard is probably one of the worst match-ups for Nurgle Daemons. Their extra toughness means nothing in melee, a single Volkite Contemptor will almost straight up delete a unit of plaguebeares a turn, Fleshmower Drones trade excellently with Beasts of Nurgle or Plague Drones all day, and win just about every time. Pretty much the only tough nuts to crack are Nurgle Soulgrinders, and the GUO. And by tough, I mean DG can't one-round them.
I would be ok with the warp storm dice if the effects were bullshit strong. They couldn't even just steal from AoS and use the Skull Throne or Depravity Points system! It's literally right there for the table to steal!
I am kinda glad to hear this and I'll go listen to the podcast too. I really felt "alone" on this take, I deeply love daemons and I am not pleased by this codex writting. I still find it's kinda the "best" daemon codex made but for me it's still the worst 9th edition codex (compared to the period it was released). I found that people around are too much positive about it. It still brings some good things but the internal balance is absurd to such a level that even with cost reduction, it'll still not feel "fun". As in general, there isn't much things to do on the board, so you feel trapped to the deepstrike+charge mechanic, heralds are jokes (and the named ones are even worst, unless maybe skulltaker because he isn't compared to a better psyker). There are so many things who doesn't make sense (even without speaking of the Be'Lakor army of renom). It feels like having an elite army without the durability, a melee focused faction without the tools to play it, etc. In my mind daemons became a bunch of "stats" and they try to find their soul. Like we came from a such pity pit from years of "nothing" that it still need more time to complete a real form. Making daemons able to ally to everyone must have forced GW to not give them too much tools to use because it would be "paired" with some of other chaos codexes. I feel like only Khorne is in an "ok spot" as all you want is charge, kill and be happy collecting skulls, even if I feel it too simple and a bit quickly boring.
So what I learned is I’m not buying this book and I’ll just use wahapedia if I use Tzeentch with my thousand sons. Also, subbing because I like the format. It would be kind of cool if next edition all the books are by chaos god and you can take them without the CP tax. Lean into Tzeentch daemons or thousand sons if you prefer, but can mix if you want.
Even though I am neither collecting nor playing anymore, I am happy I never got into Daemons. It almost always felt like uphill battles with what every other Army got. The only way I wanted to play was silly fun around daemonic summoning: A Word Bearer HQ detachment summoning an army out of thin air. A bunch of Slaanesh harpists flooding the field with KoSs. 3 Great Unclean Ones inviting more of them. Actually having more than three Skull cannons. But well, since I learned GW is happy to break armies with artificial limits, I got bummed out of making silly lists.
Additional comment on Dark Invigoration: It doesn't work on Plaguebearers It specifies that models can only be replenished if all models in a unit have 1 wound each Plaguebearers have 2 wounds each So best case scenario, you can heal half a Plaguebearer, while they get to sit and watch all your Bloodletters, Daemonettes, and Horrors (don't even get me started on the Horrors) get their friends back Should've probably specified Core Infantry instead so Plaguebearers aren't completely screwed over
If I had to use a Slaaneshi metaphor, the Chaos Demon codex story is basically: each codex was beating the meat faster and faster, each new OP buff was slapping it hard and harder...then...suddenly, it jizzed and all the life was gone, after that, there was no slapping. And thus, CD was born
I don’t hate it as much, and it does have some ideas, but they definitely went too far into the “buffs for mono” direction rather then “less efficient if mixed”, and it could be laid out better. Maybe extra warp dice for mono or 2 less for mixed? Should atleast be able to pay 1 CP to retain some of them I like that it is all together (better then bringing 4 books), but, especially running mono there is a lack of units overall, bringing cultists, Tzaangores, Traitor Guard and the future Khorne cultists would help a lot.
As an undivided player, it's really sad to see that playstyle gutted. The whole reason I got into Daemons was to have a multicoloured horde, and now I'm just told to suck it up and pick one or 2 subfactions.
I've been saying this since I started playin with Daemons as my first army back at the end of 7th edition. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this thought process.
As someone who used to play with a lot of slaanesh stuff in my army l can affirm that removing the "fight first" rule is probably the best change in this book. It sounds nice and easy on paper but with how combat works in 9th it's just a complete and utter brainfuck and it would almost never happen anyways so l'd mostly just ignore it. Good job for once james.
a nice ability for taking a full God specific army,would be the option to upgrade a unit or unit type to be exalted, giving them some sort of boost or give them a new ability of some kind. Warpstorm points should have been treated like Magic was in fantasy. Characters generate a set number of dice which can be used to spend on spells, or in 40k, warpstorm effects. have a geater daemon? he generates 4 dice if alive in the command phase. Heralds? 2 dice each... spend away!
One thing that got skipped over that is super questionable, is that you can't take khorne relics on vehicles. Meaning the bloodthrone, which is the only khorne vehicle that could even take a relic, can't take one. It makes even less sense when you compare it to slannesh, which can take relics on their vehicles. I don't understand why they made this exclusion, it's not like it would make the bloodthrone overpowered or anything, it just makes no sense.
While I play chaos marines, the biggest issue I've had with daemons is point cost! Though perhaps I am newb on this, but 130 points for Bloodletters? The same amount for a fully marked and kitted out sqaud of Legionaires? Seems a bit step for a one wound, one attack model
They've 2 attacks per 2 damage each. Troop choice got seriously buffed - right now one model is worth the two from the last codex. You just have to adjust that right now it's an elite shock troops army, not a horde blob.
in 15:42 is a freakingly loud sound randomly thrown at the viewer. As I was hearing this under headphones, I fucking literaly jumped up and got nearly a stroke by this sound. I thought my house would crumlbe. Please consider to not try to kill me again (soon). Also I will consider to hear you with soundsetting 25% next time. :P
Warp Storm sounds really dumb. So there are abilities there that the army had by default, or that other armies have just by having a specific subfaction. If you have them half as often you would think they'd be twice as powerful to try to make up for it. And that doesn't even properly make up for it, since you won't necessarily have them when you need them. Though the unpredictability of it could be helpful in messing up your enemy, the fact is your army needs to be able to function against multiple types of armies. You can't be stuck with an ability that is good against shooting when fighting pure melee. They also design really poorly all around. I was so hyped when my Gargoyles had their guns made stronger. ...And I knew in the back of my mind that they'd be raised in point cost proportionally. So what happens? Almost no one uses them, or if they do they're pretty much purely for screening or obsec. People just go monsterous Tyranids and Warrior spam because they don't know how to make each unit fill a unique enough role so spam becomes a bad idea. Why take that when this is strictly better? Because it shouldn't be strictly better. They have a competitive scene, they should be taking balance seriously, and that can't be done if they can't design properly to begin with.
The problem with making 4 daemonkin books is it would make more of gw's models sit on shelves. when you have 2 codex's merge together you will be using half the amount of models and some of the units you would have used in either book will never be touched anymore because you have a better option that came from the the other book. Like why the hell would a khorne daemonkin or tzeentch daemonkin use their chariots or soul grinders when they have the heavy support choices from chaos space marines. Why would tzeentch daemonkin use tzaangors at all if you have daemons instead. It wouldn't be a good decision for a company selling models to do
I think one of the biggest reasons I won't play 40k anymore is I don't want to risk paying money for a codex that has a high chances of being poorly written or changed within a week.
They could literally strip all the rules out from the codices, making them just art and lore books, and it would make them more fit for purpose. It would certainly make them more valuable long-term for players of that army. Forget a book that becomes outdated after 3 years. Codices get outdated before they're even published. And what is there is just bad.
Can’t believe GW miscounted the stratagems. Obviously Khorne has 8, Tzeentch has 9, Nurgle has 7, and Slaanesh has 6. HTF did GW give everyone except Khorne 8?!
To give a MINOR nod to Slaanesh... In 8th they were 7" move, advance and charge. In 9th, boards are smaller and they're at 10" move, no advance/charge. The average advance roll is 3.5.. so with a smaller board, let's call it 3. It's about the same as having an inbuilt 3" advance and charge. It's dumb, there's no flavour, but it IS somewhat equal.
It's not equal, because you forgot the trumpet. 7"+d6+1 is usually (2/3 times) better than 10" and the armies are just as far away from each other as before - 24" or sometimes 18".
The "bad" thing about is part of that. You spend a whole turn of warpstorm for +1BS that'll only be good for your heavy supports (and HQ)and still get denied by terrains. It just feel overpriced for something that will be nice only on a specific list.
ork book is just a sad tragedy of a book ... I have been into orks since the 90s . and this current book is just trash unless you want to run buggies/snagga stuff .. . no love for the dread wagghhh/stompy stuff. ..
I agree the Daemons Codex could be better but going the AoS route I don't think is the right fix. As a former fantasy player I hate what AoS did with Daemons and honestly this is one reason I jumped into 40k vs playing AoS, because in 40k all the factions remained the same i.e Daemons of Chaos are still Daemons not Disciples of Tzeentch, Nurgle Maggotkin, followers of farts or whatever other stupid title they have come up with.
I think if they brought the nurgle disgusting resilience back as the only change for nurgle daemons, nurgle would be playable and maybe even good. Same for the slaanes daemons with the advance and charge
Recently did Dark Angels vs Daemons. I lost due to them having 3-5 model Flamers that wrecked everything i had (why these are so powerful is beyond me). Then couldnt use AP at all which was super annoying since i probably couldve taken down several other things. But watching the Warp Storm, we were friends playing but i moved 12" away, and moved up another inch since i had the extra movement in a biker and they let me (im still new and it was the first time playing against Daemons). That was the only thing they used their points on lol The Warp Storm was useless, and yea they had three big characters that were scary with 20 wounds that i just couldnt take down since he pounced my 2 Redemptors second turn. But the Flamers carried the match, the Blue Horrors were weak but my DW Knights fighting them wouldve been annoying after the last turn (turn 3), their bloodletters were easy to wipe out but overall it was fun and just an annoying game overall because the Flamers get to throw like 30 shots EVERYTIME they shot lol
Is this the first chaos demon codex that came out or was there ever one before Edit: I posted that question early in the video, my question was answered right after I hit post
mono khorne player here I miss my furys but yeah, its sad that you guys have a 3+ BS greater deamon... hope GW does something to make the codex more well balanced
Don't talk to me about Reanimation Protocols I freaking have hated that rule for the last two editions and IT DOESNT WORK. But yeah I absolutely understand where this comes from, cause I've had the same issues with Necrons. My condolences.
I probably won't get a notification of your reply (YT stopped sending those long time ago), so please go to my channel and send me an email instead if you want. Do you think making a supplement that tries to match CSM detachments with Daemon detachments in a more lore-friendly (Tzeentch hates Nurgle and will only ally with Slaanesh CSM maybe etc...) way would be a way to fix this situation? Obviously a whole lotta extra rules would have to be made, but it might be a way to reward mono-faction soups between Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons, Death Guard and Nurgle-daemons... while giving us Chaos players a chance to build a variety of interesting and playable lists.
Missed out that the only faction to not be able to get a mortal wound save is Nurgle, so the 'most resilient' has no resilience.
It's still a fluffy list though because nurgle is also the God of despair and depression
@@michaelpsellos770 The only one suffering despair and depression are the Nurgle players themselves.
"I can't wait another 5 years to see them try again" is an admonishment so powerful that Asmodai balked
As a mono nurgle player, it feels like they were super terrified about the durable subfaction actually being durable for the points. Plaguebearers are roughly twice as tough now as they were but cost roughly twice as much....so they're really not any tougher than their garbage 8th edition state.
And Great Unclean One's just kinda die because the only thing that makes them tough is having a high Toughness trait...but when so much of the game gives you +1 to wound...or flat-out skips the wound roll to begin with...they just die. To basically everything. They're just as tough as the other 3 greater daemons but do significantly less damage with less mobility and a giant fucking base.
I dunno. Nurgle feels awful.
Nurgle has dominated the demon codex for 15 years, let someone else get the spotlight
@@vice1219 How about no. How about they're all playable.
as someone that went in with mono khorne, and was considering diving into doing duo khorne/nurgle. seeing the nurgle stuff was so depressing... then seeing that flamers are so damn strong... the daemons are shelved.
@@vice1219 Please go away with that loser attitude.
They should all be viable and internally competitive.
GW are terrible at balance. This is the problem. There is no disputing this.
How would the "toxic plaguebearer-spam" even work, when Plaguebearers are confined to 10 models per squad? Did GW expect people to bring double Battalions for 12x10 Plaguebearers?
As an ork player, the mono datasheet stratagem rant hit home for me
Just merge each Daemon and Specific CSM legion and have 1 only codex for each Chaos God.
PLEASE!!!!!!
Found my demonkin codex a few months ago and omg I love that codex so much, it was the best book other than the legions codex
I rather play mixed daemons. But I know others enjoy that mix like in AoS
Yes please. At the very least I wish Troops in the Daemon Codex were considered 'Agents of Chaos' by default for each respective Legion. I'd love to field some Daemonettes in my EC list for fun but taking a CP kick to the balls just to field Troops means 'hell no' to that idea.
Sure, I could field a Patrol w/ an HQ and Daemonttes but that starts warping (kek) too much of my list.
Honestly, what I would love is just 3 ENORMOUS codexes, like 3 corebook sized, With each alliance (xenos, chaos, imperium) and that's it, thanks we're done. And while at it, normalize chaos soup, xeno soup and imperial soup
I think GW accidentally scored a minor win by having Khorne Daemons be the only ones, thus far, to make the transition to Combat Patrol. Because they ended up being the only one of the four "subfactions" that's actually playable.
Well, other than Flamer spam, and as we've seen it doesn't need to be Chaos Daemons for that.
They put all their Flamers into the AoS Tzeentch and Tzangor box, which is why they(flamers) were conveniently sold out everywhere for the last few months.
depends on how many points you play. at 1000p mono tzeentch is disgusting to play against
i'm a little late to this video but you guys grew 84k subs in 14 months???!! that's absolutely insane and congrats to on that! you 100% deserve it!
Thanks for the kind words. It's been a pretty surreal year.
(Brad here) If you notice a few minor editing issues on this episode, sorry in advance. It was kind of a crunch to get this one out on time during a holiday week. Also sorry in advance if you aren't a fan of more negative episodes. I don't want to devolve into ragebait content, but I needed to get this out of my system... This book SUCKS!
If for some reason you want more of this topic, I spent about 2.5 hours ranting to Eric originally and there's a longer one hour cut on our audio feeds: poorhammer.libsyn.com/episode-42-dissecting-a-daemonic-disaster
Sounds awesome
Also, you missed a huge point with dark invigoration, the one troop made to be all round durable, the Plague bearer, isn't affected by it.
And why did they nerf disciples of be'lakor...
As a Ynarri player who fell in love with their fluff I feel your pain. The new codex has them be craftworlds with two squads of
harlequin troups. It's incredibly infuriating.
As a Dedicated Chaos player, and lover of Chaos Daemons, I 100% agree with doing Codex Nurgle, with Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons mixed, and so on and so on for each.
Imagine how much Codex World Eaters would've benefited from that.
They could even say - If your Warlord is a Daemon, Plaguebearers become troops, if your General is an Astartes, Plague Marines become Troops.
It'd be so clean and elegant.
Just finished the video after it popped up in my recomendations tab and I gotta say good job guys, very informative, well spoken and edited, you've earned yourself a sub! keep up the great work
I wonder how busted it would have been to give Nurgle 5+++ vs damage 1 (and mortals). Maybe give them a warp storm power to make that 5+++ vs anything . Anyway, great talk!
should have just made all nurgle have inbuilt -1 wound on all models
I remember back in the 2nd Ed days when daemons were massively powerful - with a high points cost attached. Back then the rules for Daemon armies were that only other Daemon armies could fight against them (in lore these battles were fought in the warp). The points cost for these armies were 100k+ for an "average" battle. It sounds like GW has spent the last 7 editions trying to get Daemon armies to fit where they don't belong, and are fucking it up in a way only GW can.
Good review. As a Competitive Slaanesh Daemons player (itc #1 for the last 6+months) they did make our Greater Daemons a little tougher with daemon saves, but still only T7, and because they are 20 wounds now they can't hide like they used to... It forces us to put them in the warp to manifest, but then you lose all that speed that you're supposed to have. The points costs are awful when you compare even internally between Daemonettes and Seekers of Slaanesh. Daemonettes for 120 points are 10 models/wounds at T3 and 41 attacks at AP -2. For 100 points you get 5 Seekers/10 wounds at T4 with 21 attacks at -2 and 10 attacks at AP 0.... Why would you take Seekers? They are the same number of wounds, die just as easy as t3 to t4 is a very minor difference and they have less attacks with worse AP. Sure they are faster, but they aren't going to kill if they charge and they will just die when they get shot.
Sad times. I won more events with mono Slaanesh Daemons before the new book came out, even going 4-2 at LVO last year, only losing to 2 top 20 placed players including Jack Harpster. Everything is over costed.
So i used to play chaos demons like 10 years ago, and recently got back into the hobby. Your breakdown of the codex was eye opening for me, because I actually enjoyed how little stratagems there were (mind you not realizing that other factions had more, just the fact that i could take a look at the codex online and start playing). One of the things I thought after playing a fluff tzeentch only list was "Nice this feels familiar, flamers used to be super strong and I guess they still are". I think they are in fact even stronger now than they used to be ( not that thats very surprising). I guess we went full circle in a way.
"Each of these should have 40 Stratagems, like every other Codex."
Technically, the book - when taken as a whole - has 30 Stratagems. (I'm counting the 4 Relic strats as 1, obv). You would never run more than 1 god in your army, obviously, but you could. Hence, "Chaos Daemons" is an army with 30 strats.
Also, can we just examine the flavor fail of not giving Stratagems to the different gods based on their special numbers? Why doesn't Tzeentch have 9 Stratagems? Why does Khorne have 6 and Slaanesh 8, when their numbers are reversed?
Makes sense.
Khorne stratagems should be condensed, simple, but predictable anyways.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290make it notes, not even full sentences “give ur charge + 2” or something similar.
On the other hand, give Tzeentch those bloated rules that ask you 3 conditions, but if you can pull it off you get rewarded a lot “if your blue horrors are exactly 6” away from any enemy unit, and there is no brimstone horror model in your blue horror unit, and you haven’t moved in your movement phase, roll 3d6 for the enemy unit; every 2+ is a d6 mortal wounds”
Just happen to stumble upon y'alls channel and I am thoroughly impressed! Love the video format and edits you guys do for your guy's content. From one small channel to another, here's a like follow and a sub. And a best of wishes for your 40k journey for RUclips 🙂
“Nobody plays with 2 damage shooting.”
*cries in Custodes*
This is not a codex: it's 4 indexes you are supposed to use in other Chaos armies. Which is laughable.
Gonna be interresting to see your take on the world eaters one. From the leaks, it doesn't look good.
Warp storm, I think that like
A: some things need to be just made innate again, its dumb that faction-abilities are now locked behind a random currency.
B: Warpstorm points NEED to build up, make it a "Oooo, I'm saving up for a real banger of an ability if you don't deal with me soon"
C: There needs to be a passive warpstorm buildup, like atleast 1 point needs to be given no matter what
Or heck, you could make it so that warpstorm points build up but you get -1 per turn
Guess who is the best shooter!
Is it
A. A greater daemon of tzeenth
B. A space marine terminator
C.A tau tank commander longstrike
D.A genestealer cowboy.
Watching this 11 months later, that polite request for RUclips subs looks really funny with your 63k+ subscriber count. Congrats on the growth!!
Ps: love this video, only when you throw out all the bad unfiltered you can appreciate the good. And oh the Bloodthirstiers are VERY good. And fun.
Kind of incredible yall had less than 1k subs as of 5 months ago, how far you've come! Great job!
Very well articulated critique. I got lucky early on, invested into every Daemon faction during early 9th, and was able to go into Disciples of Be'Lakor. I'm certain that it's the best option right now, because you get to dip into the best parts of the book without having to commit to the worst part. I can have War Dogs, Belakor, and all the best daemons, with all their strats, AND I still get to use the mediocre Warp Storm and CK once-per-game Dread ability. My list is still obviously 15 Flamers with troops to go score points, and due to GW's HORRIBLE porting of the Army of Renown and it's strats, there is also no reason to bring Chaos Marines (even tho it's 1/3rd of the point of the AoR).
To see how fucky everything is for me, and then to realize I got it better than everyone else did, is astounding to me. I have a laundry list of fixes that I would make JUST FOR DoB. It's a really shitty feeling knowing that not only will GW likely never fix them, but may never even know how badly they dropped the ball in the first place.
As a Nurgle daemon player, I should also add that dark invigoration is borderline useless for us. It can’t revive anything, since plaguebearers and nurglings have too many wounds and beasts of Nurgle won’t be healed because they heal to full wounds every phase. For 5 warp storm points, I should at least be able to revive plaguebearers.
At least I won’t ever be tempted to use it, and can spend my warp storm points on something more valuable, like the Nurgle powers or the -1 to hit.
“Imagine if your army rule just didn’t work some turns”
…. Actually, if the army rule in question had some sort of baked-in disadvantage… that could be interesting. You could be praying for it to come up in one turn and not another.
Just stumbled across this podcast and love the format and discussion/rant. A great piece to just listen to while building and painting, keep up the great work!
Also, the art for both of you is amazing, did you guys get them commissioned and if so, who is the artist?
(Brad here) We use art GW owns because we're way too poor to commission art and GW can shut us down whenever they want anyway. This way we're at least not stealing fan art. My art is from the current Thousand Sons codex, Eric's is from I think 8th edition GK? Our video editor ran them through some processes in photoshop to make them less detailed and more abstract.
New to the channel, really loving it. Though I do have one question. Why is binging with babish giving me in-depth rules analysis?
That's the best thing anyone has ever compared my voice to, I'll take it.
Wow, as a Nurgle player I am so glad I jumped ship to AoS back in the end of 8th edition. Yikes!
Listen, two things in this codex are unequivocally fantastic:
-Daemonic Allies/ Manifestation fixing the terrible summoning rules of 8th
-Splitting Horrors is factored into the points cost of the models on your datasheet now
Warp Storm is underwhelming as an armywide rule, sure, but bringing Daemons in a Chaos Knight list? Banger.
Horrors finally being competative? a godsend to people who paid for and painted 50 horrors to have a full splitting unit.
Splitting horrors is so close to being fantastic, but the amount of times they get wiped, and you spent 5-8 extra points on a rule that effectively didn't exist is so frustrating.
Manifestation and the spooky morale stuff is great, though
Impressive you managed this kind of video in 35 minutes, most of them are 2+ hours.
I wish they had developed the idea of the 'Undivided' daemons they introduced in WHFB 6th/40k 3.5 with chaos Furies etc, i think it would have helped with the power gamer vs army theme thing and the keyword spaghetti that seriously plagues demons to have good 'undivided' choices. Certainly to me would make them a whole lot less unappealing as an army, every army and even artwork that has them all working together like a happy family just grinds my gears.
I'm actually against make god specific books. I want to play daemons. I don't want 4 different armies out of my one. But i can see the appeal people would want for it. The biggest wtf is still the unit cap for troops. like wtf am I suppose to do with 10 daemonettes? they don't hit hard enough to matter and they die to anything.
I am really on the fence about collecting and playing pure demons and this video is such a bummer. (But great job and thanks a lot for bringing these issues to the light!) I hate how in AoS I would have to buy 4 books to play demon. I don't want mortals, just pure demons because of the nice double use of demons in AoS and 40k. Chaos Daemons seem to be lacking though in all those tricky little things like stratagems or "core" that are completely unknown to me as a returning player from 5th...
From 500 subs to 25k in 4 months lol! Love finding channels and seeing how they grown
Also 100% agree with pretty much everything!! I think the best thing they could do would be to simply add new unique models for every deamon faction!! Like each faction should have a minimum of 10 unit types, 2HQ’s and a vehicle (like) unit
When i looked at the Daemons codex as an Deathguard player it felt a bit underwhelming. I had to check i hadn’t missed “chapter tactics” like -1 damage for Nurgle.
The short summary of the codex: they replaced most of the weird special rules into simple auras, really buffed the profiles of units (sometimes integrating these old special rules into the flat statline, as in the Slaanesh's speed or Khorne's strength and attacks), and polished it on top with the solid set of army-wide abilities, such as deep-strike and Ld manipulation (which works really great when you have it on everything - the more tests the opponent has to roll, the more fails he'll inevitably make). But at THAT point, GW probably got afraid they'll overbuff the daemons, so the stratagems and the army-specific ability of Warpstorm was written too "safely".
It's not a bad codex, I definitely like playing it, but yeah, the lack of the sub-faction specific bonuses is especially glaring.
>sometimes integrating these old special rules into the flat statline, as in the Slaanesh's speed
Which is flat out wrong, because a 7" moving, D6+1 advancing Damonette is still faster than a 10" Demonette. A 14"+d6 Fiend is faster than a 14" Fiend. A 14+3+D6 Keeper of Secrets is faster than a 16" Keeper of Secrets.
Slaanesh got GUTTED and everyone was pretending they're okay coping "oh wow, Demonettes move 10 inches", which is completely irrelevant because they're 12 POINTS PER MODEL and mandatory 10s. I would rather have 20 old Daemonettes than 10 new ones. Or you know what, I will take 10 Old demonettes, because that is 60 points saved on awful, unuseable troops.
But the results speak for themselves: Slaanesh went from the BEST daemon list to basically never seen and we have more 8th Edition Demonettes logged into competitive results than 9th edition Demonettes.
How much do you think storing warp storm points by default would help? My worry is you'll get a fix like that in the next dataslate, and it turns out to be nowhere near enough, and then you have to wait another 3 months to try again.
I legitimately thought that you rolled warp storm points each turn, rather than round. It didn't feel overpowered.
Ngl played 3 games of them after not playing demons in a while and something felt off but I couldn't put it into words, very good video ty.
There are even more bits that just don't work.
Horrors have the same issue as necrons; they're priced for splitting, but if they get wiped, it doesn't trigger, meaning they often just... don't split.
One of the tzeentch warp storm effects is extra wounds in melee, where we're terrible.
The blue scribes now cast random spells at the start of the turn, meaning you can accidentally cast the spell you needed your lord of change to fire off, making it a liability.
Screamers are melee only, but have a 4+ ws and a 6+ melee save (can you tell I play tzeentch yet?)
Nurgle can't use dark invig properly, as their troops have 2 wounds.
And the worst in my opinion: the rule that makes greater daemons _have_ to take the warlord trait means that the ones that were clearly designed for the heralds (such as the to one for getting a cast and an action for something like psychic interrogation) never see play.
Even with all that, I prefer it to the malfunctioning stuff we has in 8th, but man, I wish we could catch a break.
In the Tzeentch family, you forgot the joke what the changeling is. A 1 spell caster, with a special rule to perform in melee, ONLY against infantry. Can't take any relic. Cost 20pts more. Just end up in melee and die.
Screamer 6+ melee is a pure bad writting. Looking at soulgrinders, being Tzeentch... end up with a better melee save.
It's indeed better than the last codex who was left behind without even a single try of help. Even the release of the codex is... special. Absolute 0 new model, so furies are gone. Instead, to avoid being the only codex who get less datasheets in his new codex we got a khorne fortification for priests (so why should I put a duelist on it). It isn't like we could have Dexcessa and Synessa with non named characters rules or even fit a lacking part of heavy support for slaanesh.
I find it kind of funny that GW got it right back in 3rd ed, at least conceptually.
BROOOOOOOO.....personally I LOVE that Chaos Daemons is 4 armies that I can mix and match I love the creativity I can unleash with it. God I hope they don't split it up.
Nurgle is essentially just a stat-check. Does your enemy have good shooting or melee of STR 6 or 7, preferably damage 2? If so, you lose! Hurray!
Funnily enough, Death Guard is probably one of the worst match-ups for Nurgle Daemons. Their extra toughness means nothing in melee, a single Volkite Contemptor will almost straight up delete a unit of plaguebeares a turn, Fleshmower Drones trade excellently with Beasts of Nurgle or Plague Drones all day, and win just about every time.
Pretty much the only tough nuts to crack are Nurgle Soulgrinders, and the GUO. And by tough, I mean DG can't one-round them.
I would be ok with the warp storm dice if the effects were bullshit strong. They couldn't even just steal from AoS and use the Skull Throne or Depravity Points system! It's literally right there for the table to steal!
I am kinda glad to hear this and I'll go listen to the podcast too.
I really felt "alone" on this take, I deeply love daemons and I am not pleased by this codex writting. I still find it's kinda the "best" daemon codex made but for me it's still the worst 9th edition codex (compared to the period it was released). I found that people around are too much positive about it. It still brings some good things but the internal balance is absurd to such a level that even with cost reduction, it'll still not feel "fun". As in general, there isn't much things to do on the board, so you feel trapped to the deepstrike+charge mechanic, heralds are jokes (and the named ones are even worst, unless maybe skulltaker because he isn't compared to a better psyker).
There are so many things who doesn't make sense (even without speaking of the Be'Lakor army of renom). It feels like having an elite army without the durability, a melee focused faction without the tools to play it, etc. In my mind daemons became a bunch of "stats" and they try to find their soul. Like we came from a such pity pit from years of "nothing" that it still need more time to complete a real form.
Making daemons able to ally to everyone must have forced GW to not give them too much tools to use because it would be "paired" with some of other chaos codexes. I feel like only Khorne is in an "ok spot" as all you want is charge, kill and be happy collecting skulls, even if I feel it too simple and a bit quickly boring.
So what I learned is I’m not buying this book and I’ll just use wahapedia if I use Tzeentch with my thousand sons.
Also, subbing because I like the format.
It would be kind of cool if next edition all the books are by chaos god and you can take them without the CP tax. Lean into Tzeentch daemons or thousand sons if you prefer, but can mix if you want.
THANK YOU i swear i was the only one who hated this codex
this thing was written with all the love of the 8th ed "inquisition" codex
I’m extremely worried but hopeful for the world eaters codex
Just found you guys and this is a fantastic discussion video and it was a joy to listen to.
Even though I am neither collecting nor playing anymore, I am happy I never got into Daemons. It almost always felt like uphill battles with what every other Army got. The only way I wanted to play was silly fun around daemonic summoning:
A Word Bearer HQ detachment summoning an army out of thin air. A bunch of Slaanesh harpists flooding the field with KoSs. 3 Great Unclean Ones inviting more of them. Actually having more than three Skull cannons. But well, since I learned GW is happy to break armies with artificial limits, I got bummed out of making silly lists.
Plz talk about the new flamers after their nerf. I wanna see you explode with the irritation haha
"Bring the Flamer, the HEAVY Flamer." -Russian Badger
This was well spoken! I was so excited for this codex, but it was a huge let down.
Additional comment on Dark Invigoration: It doesn't work on Plaguebearers
It specifies that models can only be replenished if all models in a unit have 1 wound each
Plaguebearers have 2 wounds each
So best case scenario, you can heal half a Plaguebearer, while they get to sit and watch all your Bloodletters, Daemonettes, and Horrors (don't even get me started on the Horrors) get their friends back
Should've probably specified Core Infantry instead so Plaguebearers aren't completely screwed over
If I had to use a Slaaneshi metaphor, the Chaos Demon codex story is basically:
each codex was beating the meat faster and faster, each new OP buff was slapping it hard and harder...then...suddenly, it jizzed and all the life was gone, after that, there was no slapping. And thus, CD was born
What are you talking about, Kaldor's warlord trait is working as intended. It turns off the invuln for Ynnead and Khaine, what else do you need?
As a mono khorne player I have to agree I was unaware of everything but the flamers. The only complaint I had was no second warlord trait.
I could argue that on release Necron codex is also up there
I don’t hate it as much, and it does have some ideas, but they definitely went too far into the “buffs for mono” direction rather then “less efficient if mixed”, and it could be laid out better.
Maybe extra warp dice for mono or 2 less for mixed? Should atleast be able to pay 1 CP to retain some of them
I like that it is all together (better then bringing 4 books), but, especially running mono there is a lack of units overall, bringing cultists, Tzaangores, Traitor Guard and the future Khorne cultists would help a lot.
As an undivided player, it's really sad to see that playstyle gutted. The whole reason I got into Daemons was to have a multicoloured horde, and now I'm just told to suck it up and pick one or 2 subfactions.
I severely miss the old 7e rules. Random, fun, and and summoning was a serious threat. Now it's garbage all around
Never see this channel but loved this video, subbed 🙂
I've been saying this since I started playin with Daemons as my first army back at the end of 7th edition. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this thought process.
I once played Daemons back in the start of 6th Edition. Seeing how they are is very unfortunate even if I don't play the game anymore.
As someone who used to play with a lot of slaanesh stuff in my army l can affirm that removing the "fight first" rule is probably the best change in this book.
It sounds nice and easy on paper but with how combat works in 9th it's just a complete and utter brainfuck and it would almost never happen anyways so l'd mostly just ignore it.
Good job for once james.
a nice ability for taking a full God specific army,would be the option to upgrade a unit or unit type to be exalted, giving them some sort of boost or give them a new ability of some kind.
Warpstorm points should have been treated like Magic was in fantasy. Characters generate a set number of dice which can be used to spend on spells, or in 40k, warpstorm effects.
have a geater daemon? he generates 4 dice if alive in the command phase. Heralds? 2 dice each... spend away!
THATS EXACTLY THE SOLUTION, nice ides bro
Missed that all the other Gods got 8 startagems but Khorne got 6, when you remember their sacred (corrupt) numbers this is one of the biggest insults
One thing that got skipped over that is super questionable, is that you can't take khorne relics on vehicles. Meaning the bloodthrone, which is the only khorne vehicle that could even take a relic, can't take one. It makes even less sense when you compare it to slannesh, which can take relics on their vehicles. I don't understand why they made this exclusion, it's not like it would make the bloodthrone overpowered or anything, it just makes no sense.
While I play chaos marines, the biggest issue I've had with daemons is point cost! Though perhaps I am newb on this, but 130 points for Bloodletters? The same amount for a fully marked and kitted out sqaud of Legionaires? Seems a bit step for a one wound, one attack model
They've 2 attacks per 2 damage each.
Troop choice got seriously buffed - right now one model is worth the two from the last codex. You just have to adjust that right now it's an elite shock troops army, not a horde blob.
@@stepanserdyuk4589 lmao what? Daemon troops are trash.
The ignore modifiers during move etc warp storm ability is great in games I've had for a mostly melee army (assuming you don't have 18 flamers)
in 15:42 is a freakingly loud sound randomly thrown at the viewer. As I was hearing this under headphones, I fucking literaly jumped up and got nearly a stroke by this sound. I thought my house would crumlbe. Please consider to not try to kill me again (soon). Also I will consider to hear you with soundsetting 25% next time. :P
Warp Storm sounds really dumb.
So there are abilities there that the army had by default, or that other armies have just by having a specific subfaction.
If you have them half as often you would think they'd be twice as powerful to try to make up for it.
And that doesn't even properly make up for it, since you won't necessarily have them when you need them.
Though the unpredictability of it could be helpful in messing up your enemy, the fact is your army needs to be able to function against multiple types of armies.
You can't be stuck with an ability that is good against shooting when fighting pure melee.
They also design really poorly all around.
I was so hyped when my Gargoyles had their guns made stronger.
...And I knew in the back of my mind that they'd be raised in point cost proportionally.
So what happens? Almost no one uses them, or if they do they're pretty much purely for screening or obsec.
People just go monsterous Tyranids and Warrior spam because they don't know how to make each unit fill a unique enough role so spam becomes a bad idea.
Why take that when this is strictly better? Because it shouldn't be strictly better.
They have a competitive scene, they should be taking balance seriously, and that can't be done if they can't design properly to begin with.
The problem with making 4 daemonkin books is it would make more of gw's models sit on shelves.
when you have 2 codex's merge together you will be using half the amount of models and some of the units you would have used in either book will never be touched anymore because you have a better option that came from the the other book.
Like why the hell would a khorne daemonkin or tzeentch daemonkin use their chariots or soul grinders when they have the heavy support choices from chaos space marines.
Why would tzeentch daemonkin use tzaangors at all if you have daemons instead.
It wouldn't be a good decision for a company selling models to do
Primordial Truth of the Algorythm has blessed you.
You guys are awesome! Keep up the great work.
I think one of the biggest reasons I won't play 40k anymore is I don't want to risk paying money for a codex that has a high chances of being poorly written or changed within a week.
They could literally strip all the rules out from the codices, making them just art and lore books, and it would make them more fit for purpose. It would certainly make them more valuable long-term for players of that army.
Forget a book that becomes outdated after 3 years. Codices get outdated before they're even published. And what is there is just bad.
I honestly think there should have been an undivided sub faction to. Even if its weaker. I miss the fun of daemon armies of multiple gods.
I wonder if Nurgle’s issue can be solved by points drops? Being able to take more stuff will immediately make them feel more resilient?
They need their 5+Fnp to be usable
Can’t believe GW miscounted the stratagems. Obviously Khorne has 8, Tzeentch has 9, Nurgle has 7, and Slaanesh has 6. HTF did GW give everyone except Khorne 8?!
To give a MINOR nod to Slaanesh... In 8th they were 7" move, advance and charge. In 9th, boards are smaller and they're at 10" move, no advance/charge.
The average advance roll is 3.5.. so with a smaller board, let's call it 3.
It's about the same as having an inbuilt 3" advance and charge.
It's dumb, there's no flavour, but it IS somewhat equal.
It's not equal, because you forgot the trumpet. 7"+d6+1 is usually (2/3 times) better than 10" and the armies are just as far away from each other as before - 24" or sometimes 18".
Deluge of fire is amazing, I have burning chariots hitting shots on 2+ and soulgrinders too
The "bad" thing about is part of that. You spend a whole turn of warpstorm for +1BS that'll only be good for your heavy supports (and HQ)and still get denied by terrains. It just feel overpriced for something that will be nice only on a specific list.
Lol Ork dex is written pretty badly too my guys
ork book is just a sad tragedy of a book ... I have been into orks since the 90s . and this current book is just trash unless you want to run buggies/snagga stuff .. . no love for the dread wagghhh/stompy stuff. ..
I agree the Daemons Codex could be better but going the AoS route I don't think is the right fix. As a former fantasy player I hate what AoS did with Daemons and honestly this is one reason I jumped into 40k vs playing AoS, because in 40k all the factions remained the same i.e Daemons of Chaos are still Daemons not Disciples of Tzeentch, Nurgle Maggotkin, followers of farts or whatever other stupid title they have come up with.
300 point unit that only shoots AND psychics hits on 3's? That's so dumb!
*Looks at the stormsurge on my shelf that hasn't seen play all edition*
Hey you guys didn't even talk about the army of renown and its amazing potential! /s
I think if they brought the nurgle disgusting resilience back as the only change for nurgle daemons, nurgle would be playable and maybe even good. Same for the slaanes daemons with the advance and charge
Got in at 888 views, nice.
It'll be interesting to see how this is a worse design than the ork book.
Recently did Dark Angels vs Daemons.
I lost due to them having 3-5 model Flamers that wrecked everything i had (why these are so powerful is beyond me). Then couldnt use AP at all which was super annoying since i probably couldve taken down several other things. But watching the Warp Storm, we were friends playing but i moved 12" away, and moved up another inch since i had the extra movement in a biker and they let me (im still new and it was the first time playing against Daemons). That was the only thing they used their points on lol
The Warp Storm was useless, and yea they had three big characters that were scary with 20 wounds that i just couldnt take down since he pounced my 2 Redemptors second turn. But the Flamers carried the match, the Blue Horrors were weak but my DW Knights fighting them wouldve been annoying after the last turn (turn 3), their bloodletters were easy to wipe out but overall it was fun and just an annoying game overall because the Flamers get to throw like 30 shots EVERYTIME they shot lol
Is this the first chaos demon codex that came out or was there ever one before
Edit: I posted that question early in the video, my question was answered right after I hit post
I have felt the pain of rolling 1 or no warpstorm points 4 battlerounds in a row.
Needed to be 2d6 points or at least have everything cost 1 less
love your show!
So, looking back on this video 23:47 I guess it's not as useless now that Flamers don't auto hit :^)
This makes me thankfull that each god gets their own faction in AoS.
chaos demons lead me to start homebrewing, currently I use the units and rules from 9th but psychic from 8th
mono khorne player here
I miss my furys
but yeah, its sad that you guys have a 3+ BS greater deamon... hope GW does something to make the codex more well balanced
9th Ed was the let’s take your models rules away and give them back in a FAR worse way like a Stratagem, or in this case WarpStorm.
Never change, anglos, never change...
Don't talk to me about Reanimation Protocols I freaking have hated that rule for the last two editions and IT DOESNT WORK. But yeah I absolutely understand where this comes from, cause I've had the same issues with Necrons. My condolences.
I probably won't get a notification of your reply (YT stopped sending those long time ago), so please go to my channel and send me an email instead if you want.
Do you think making a supplement that tries to match CSM detachments with Daemon detachments in a more lore-friendly (Tzeentch hates Nurgle and will only ally with Slaanesh CSM maybe etc...) way would be a way to fix this situation? Obviously a whole lotta extra rules would have to be made, but it might be a way to reward mono-faction soups between Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons, Death Guard and Nurgle-daemons... while giving us Chaos players a chance to build a variety of interesting and playable lists.