HOW DO I KNOW WHAT FIBERGLASS RESIN WAS MY BOAT BUILT WITH??
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2022
- This has been a reoccurring question for some time and the answer is likely more straight forward than the internet forums make it out to be. Am I saying that my opinion should be taken as gospel? Nope as there's always special exceptions but the info is solid for 99% of the project boats out there ;-) Hope this makes the planning process a little less complicated :-)!
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Thank you Andy. As with others I recently bought an older boat ( 1994 Bayliner 2556 ) and no surprise discovered that it needed a modest below waterline hull repair. Been obsessing over what materials to use and was trying to find out what the original construction was. 😁👍
I've switched completely over to the tinted MEKP for poly. No more questioning whether or not I added catalyst. If it's red, it's hot.
I replaced the transom,stringers ,and floor and 2 bulkheads on 18.5 ft Hourston Glasscraft using Epoxy after watching Boatworks Today vids(about 2 years ago. Boat now back in service.Thanks Andy. P.S. Epoxy cost a fortune but boat was a freebee!
It's weird. See here in the UK we don't even look at poly and Vinyl for repairs, even our chop strand most of it is powder bound for proper epoxy. They price is like £80-100 for 5kg of poly mix kit, and £100-140 for the proper epoxy kit. Most just get the poly or vinyl for scabby non-structural fixes that are hidden or just to tidy the thing up. Every repair would be expected to be done with proper Epoxy. I'm in Scotland, West systems is laying about in folks garages here its the standard.
@J. FK
Bring
On
Another
Thousand
I have restored a Sleekcraft and a Powercat, both total gut and rebuilds. I have posted both on the forums. I am always amazed at how worked up people get on the poly vs epoxy debate! Thanks for walking us through your thoughts.
😂 you nailed it 19' 1996 Trophy Pro CC. Someone loved this boat it's in great shape for the year. But the last owner was a screw two metal brackets into a cooler and screw it into the deck. I had to repair the deck and get the $25.00 actual cooler mounts and buy the new cooler and seat cushion $200.00 . Thank God he didn't own it that long before he sold it. The stringers and iner hull are solid and look great the floor and transom solid. I'm going to be doing some work but with Andys help and supplies I'm going to make this great little fishing and fun boat look brand new😊
Thanks Andy this information was really helpful, just about to start my first project boat (1989 HH V146C) which does appear to have had work on the transom (different paint/peeling) so leaning towards Epoxy at this stage, I really enjoy your channel it’s become an addiction for me. Regards from DownUnder👍🇦🇺
That was a very helpful video. Thank you.
Bruce
Great Video Andy!
I'm doing a stringer up restoration on a 1968 Hatteras 34. If I could afford epoxy, I'd go that route for the excellent mechanical bond. But I'll more than likely go with poly for any tabbing I have to do. I actually built the bait tank out of a mix of both bondo poly and total boat poly. Only real difference I could see was the $20 a gal price difference.
Cant wait to finish fixing my boat will email you pictures, you have helped me a bunch!
Thank you very much for going over this, it helps a bunch
I highly recommend the downloadable guide from his website. It's less expensive than anything similar on Amazon and is an excellent reference to have on hand when planning and executing your project. I used it to supplement the videos that pertain to my project so I have a complete understanding.
Great info!
Good info, and thanks for posting this for us!
Thank you! Very helpful!
Great stuff, Andy...
Thanks mate, great intel!
Great info
Thanks Andy! So helpful. My boat also thanks you.
We build wooden International Moths using epoxy impregnated E-Glass over 1.5 to 3.0mm plywood. Since we are in Australia, we need the extra curing time of slow hardener. Our goto manufacturer - Norglass.
Poly resin on top of wood would just delaminate sooner rather than later, so one should use epoxy resin if the resin is used for gluing wood to something else..
Andy, if you were building a new wood, fiberglass, resin sailboat what resin would you use for each step... Fillets, glassing, etc.
Nice video Andy. I have a couple of additions.
1) As I am sure you know the catalyst for polyester and vinylester resin is available in clear and dyed varieties. In my experience the most common dye color is red. The use of dyed catalyst will change the color of the cured resin. Basically poly and vinyl resin can also be red although the red color is more distince with polyester resin due to the native color of vinylester resin.
2) Vinylester resin is more expensive than polyester resin. Because of that vinylester is normally used only for the outer layers of a hull because it is more resistant to water intrusion into the layup than polyester. So on a more expensive boat you may find that the first layer of mat under the gelcoat was set in vinylester, but the rest of the hull was built with polyester. Also vinylester is generally not used for decks because they don't need the extra protection from water intrusion over time that a hull does. Also vinylester resin is more unpleasant to work with (smell and allergic reactions) than polyester which can limit its use to essential applications only.
3) How a boat was built also provides information about the resin used. If you know the boat was built using resin infusion methods you can be 100% sure it was built with epoxy.
Not necessarily, vinyl infusion is quite common, at least on our side of the world the main reason being your get up to 25% more pulls in mold life by infusing in vinyl over epoxy. You also have the use of the term resin infusion, it is often (incorrectly) used interchangeably with the term vacumm bagging which is often a poly/vinyl method rather than epoxy.
@Todd Dunn Fairly accurate on EVERY point, Except 1. infused hulls are not all epoxy. Frontrunner boats for example uses infusion with poly, and there are many other builders using poly/vinyl on infused hulls. Great advice and points though!
I will also add, Vinylester has a very short shelf life, it kicks quicker then poly no matter of your using DDM9 or 8. Vinylester is a great product for guys like me in the repair business as it is a much better secondary bond than poly, it allows for Gelcoat to be used without buying duratech primer or AdTech P-77 for a tie coat.
As far as the brown resins (boatyard aka non spec) go they have a place for sure. At least in my shop. They do not require wax additives to sand after cure, they are cheap and work great for certain circumstances and they are good for spray fairing, sort of like what you do Andy with gelcoat over your final layer of repairs before sanding. I will use it as an initial print block layer a lot of the time as it’s much cheaper and longer working time than lightweight fillers.
I have not been using epoxy much lately, which is weird but, the QC of epoxy manufacturers has gone downhill and prices have SKYROCKETED! Even with wholesale acts, it’s very expensive. Hawk epoxy has become my shop choice as it’s just as good as west but a tad less. I do use all west systems fillers over hawk.
So it's almost impossible to see if a boat is made of vinylester or polyester other than the probability? The vinylester we use (at work)under the waterline is almost always a purple tint uncured but a dark green when cured and we use Trigonox 239 .
@@Xplorawatercraft What is the difference of infusing and vacuum baging?
Great information!!
Great advice Thanks.
I love your videos the only problem I have is that I live in Australia and I’m trying to learn more about fibreglassing.
Luv your videos, thank you.
I have acquired a whaler with dark brown sugar colored poorly done repairs...do you think it would be that cheap stuff you said to avoid?
I think I want to remove it but I can't tell how much there is
What about the whole debate about not using gelcoat over epoxy due to incompatibility and adhesion problem. That would also factor in as far as what resin to use wouldn't it??
I don’t own a boat. 55 working on any thing more then reinstalling easier to pay then pain. But Love Andy’s content nothing better then a trade master at work. Thanks for sharing
I now have a headache for trying to read your comment.
Lol! Yellow? Well, I guess today I learned that Mountain Dew can't possibly be the bottled water I always thought it to be! ...we don't have it here in Ireland, but it's oft mentioned in dispatches. Great content as always Andy! 👋🇮🇪
Mountain Dew 🤔 can’t remember either Coke or Pepsi brand 🤢 no matter both boycotted, as is any carbonated sugar water AKA bloat water.
@@cliveclapham6451 should drink a can once in a while as it actually cleans your gut out if its the odd can. It's drinking it as a daily refreshment is a huge issue
Indeed, very helpful!!!
Andy how long do you think excessive amounts of UV would be on an unprotected proper epoxy repair patch of a boat? Do you think the odd days sun over the space of a year hitting directly on it while you complete the rest of the boat.. would cause any degradation worth noting? I seen the write up about it and they admit it does weaken it and it's worded pretty strong, then it says like 0.17% or some small number over hundreds of hours of sun. It's a weird one as I'm like "why is it so heavily worded then, surely that's nothing to write home about" Have you personally seen the effects of it and over how long a period are we talking here and is it only on the 1-2mm on the surface where the UV can get to that it deteriorates? I've never heard anyone getting any issues doing a boat over say 1-2yr and has been left outside with bare epoxy fixes all over it before the final paint.
Thank you 🙏
My boat story. One day I went out to yard for a walk about.2feet of new snow, then I saw my boat! It's full of water frozen 8in I grabbed my pick axe chop here there then pulled out the ice to turn it over .did I say it is a livingston . yep mid Console about 4 holes fixed holes getting ready to fix gel coat to mask and cover. I used sting and green house flat sheet ruff it let it set filled it good to go.it was in 45 deg f I put a heater under boat made a tent and repair it .
I have an old flat bottom fiberglass skiff that I'm rebuilding where the bottom of the boat is also the floor of the boat. Is it a must to use epoxy inside and out or can I use epoxy on the outside laminate and polyester on the inside?
Proper epoxy is way better than polly and vinyl at 99% of things especially here in the UK where its powder bound chop strand. Nobody here wastes their time with polly and vinyl, it's not much cheaper and nowhere near as strong. Can replace transoms etc with maybe 2 or 3 less glass lays so is considered the vastly superior epoxy here. The argument that "they came with polly or vinyl" is fine.. thats fine on the first build, on repairs not so much as things like shrinkage happens evenly across the entire build on a newbuid, on repair areas you're effectively getting shrinkage just at the repair area. This phenomenon can be seen best in hole fixes by polly and vinyl that plug out after 3-7yr maybe 10yr max. West systems fills them holes for good even a poor fill it's there for our lifetime.
Given most boats were built with poly resin, but sure and certain is better than guessing, is there any sort of chemical test to determine which resin was used in the original build?
Hey Andy, when you get to hang those engines on the Bertrum will you do a video on correct hanging procedures?
Just slightly on topic about the resin, so when replacing transom should the lower end below water line be epoxy over polyester? As I have just done polyester only...
He stated in the video that anything below the waterline should be done with epoxy, I think he said it @8:40!
Have you ever heard of an AOC ISO/ ORTHO blend resin?
Question: My understanding was that once the original resin has fully cured, any new work would rely on a mechanical bond rather than a chemical one. If that's correct, would it really matter which you use as long as you're not mixing chemistries while they're still active?
It might make for an interesting experiment.
Correct about the mechanical bond after a material has cured. One possible issue is that some epoxies can continue to leach off small amounts of a chemical that can effect the ability of poly / vinyl based materials to fully cure. Maybe after years it may not be as much of an issue but it can last quite some time (especially if the epoxy was not post cured at high temps :-)
what is the best type of Epoxy for boat work below the water line ? 5 to 1 1 to 1 or does it matter ??
There is also the smell difference between cured polyester resin and epoxy resin. The polyester resins tend to have this characteristic acrid odor upon grinding/sanding. Epoxy . . . not so much.
Hey Andy, will you be back to working on the Bertram soon?
Yes :-) Right now there are other things that are requiring my time, unfortunately only so many hours in a day
So it's almost impossible to see if a boat is made of vinylester or polyester other than the probability? The vinylester we use (at work)under the waterline is almost always a purple tint uncured but a dark green when cured and we use Trigonox 239 .
Keep in mind the gelcoat color might distort how the resin color looks on the inside, some poly is red and can look like epoxy.
Interesting - I just cut an inspection port hole in my 2013 sunfish and it is made with epoxy - wonder why.
Isn't all this pretty simple? If you don't know: just use epoxy -- it sticks to everything. I've built kayaks and I repaired a heavily damaged factory made kayak. When I built I wanted the best so I used epoxy, when I repaired the damaged kayak I didn't have to consider what they might have used because I just used epoxy.
I'm a bit prejudiced against polyester. I've made a few darkroom sinks that I coated with polyester - but hardware store stuff. They would get this pinholes and bubbles. For a while I thought it was some kind of damage. Nope. I met a bunch of guys who had boats in the 1970s but gave them up because they spent all their boat time fixing blisters, pinholes, etc.... (I also read an engineering/chemistry article that discussed the chemical interaction between polyester resin and water. The stuff isn't actually waterproof.) I've since spoken with people who've never had a problem with polyester.
Thanks for sharing. I am modifying an old duck boat to make a scaled down runabout for my children to play with at the cabin. This was helpful.
When this BERTRAM MOPPIE 25 project will continue ?
So generally it's all compatible strength wise the same doesn't matter? As long as fuel isn't involved
Hello iv got a Question iv just descovered your channel, Iv started a rebuild of a 22ft Cabin cruiser boat for use on UK Canals and Rivers it was made in 1970 and the hull is strong but needs work, In your experience a boat built back then what do you think the hull is made of Epoxy or Polyester?
I will be sanding it down and fixing it along with either putting on a gelcoat or a flowcoat, any advice you can offer would be Helpful
The Boat is a Teal 22 Built by F.H Child im hoping to restore her to original and keep her for many years.
You're assuming the guy who did the prior repair knew what the heck he was doing....as I found out the hard way when a chunk of gel coat fell off of an old epoxy repair on my boat. It held up for a decade or so.
Fleming Yachts uses Vinyl-ester resin for their hulls, they have building their boat vids on their youtube channel where it is specified.
Though I think a good topic for a future video for you would be on the fire-resistant options when working with glass and resins. I know the big drawback is the cost, like 5 times the cost of non fire-resistant matting.
Gel coats are polyester based so you have to use polyester resin.
So boats built with polyester resin below the water line are in danger of sinking due to water intrusion 😬?
No not at all! But when it comes to repair below the waterline, given the option epoxy is a better choice however either resin will work just fine :-)
? I hit something in the river and scratched the hull center down to fiberglass.. no holes thank God my?? Is can I use total boat fairing filler on it sand and paint.
As long as the scratch is cosmetic and didn't damage the glass you can just give it a quick sand with some 80, clean and go overtop with a filler. If you'll want to go overtop the filler with gelcoat I'd suggest using the totalboat structural repair putty. If you'll be finishing with bottom paint then totalfair / an epoxy fairing compound will do the job ;-)
@@boatworkstoday thank you
@@boatworkstoday I'm so happy to get this old 1980 thompson back in the water with your video help
Hi Andy, I love your videos. I tried to Donate money on your site and it did not work, I then tried to email you through your contact form and that did not work. What's going on over there? I would love to talk to you about an idea I had.
Thanks, Ted
Another big distinction is cure time!?epoxy is a 24 hr wait for full cure.
When are you going to get back to working on boats and teaching us the fundamentals of working on a boat?
Late 90's boat is not an old boat. LOL