For all the "8 short" episodes in order, see ruclips.net/p/PLABcWksVExXvcMfZzhf9XLHeXqlSj0QiJ Thanks for all the questions and feedback - all appreciated!
You have this amazing way of finding new approaches and new perspectives for each piece. I had to laugh about the description of the stonking great hemiola, but I see what you mean.
Thank you very much for this interesting video! Sometimes I played the prelude myself and I'm positive surprised, that I'm not far away from your approach with my modest skills. But I also heared it played very, very slow and with full organ, sounds like a funeral march. Do you think, it is an option too?
Thank you. I'm very pleased that we're in agreement about the performance style for this piece. I don't like the idea of playing it very slowly and heavily. Often, if the tempo is slowed down very much the pulse of the piece perversely accelerates becase rather than a "crotchet" pulse it sounds like a "quaver" pulse, which then becomes very busy and fussy and does not coincide with the narural harmonic rhythm of the music. And this seems to me to be a gentle and flowing work, so I am not sure that a big full-organ sound quite works. But it's always good to experiment! Tim
Are the four pairs 1+2, 3+4, 5+6, 7+8? Are the P+F's used much in the UK for teaching purposes, and were they in the past once Bach's organ music was introduced?
Interesting questions - thank you! The "pairs" that I had in mind are not formal pairs; nor are they entirely clear cut. This piece - the E minor - bears some resemblences to no. 6, the G minor. Similarly, the G major (5) and A minor (7) share rhapsodic North-European Baroque techniques. The C major and Bb (1 and 8) are a bit more Italianate. The remaining two - the D minor and F major ones - are outliers in some ways, and I can't suggest that they have a whole lot in common. In fact, the F major is really unlike anything - I'll try to talk about that one next. These preludes and fugues are fairly commonly used for teaching purposes here in Norway, and in my experience, in many parts of Germany too. I can't really answer for the UK, but my understanding is that they have long been a staple teaching repertoire there as well. Should they be? I don't know. Although they lack the sophistication of Orgelbüchlein - which has to be the ultimate teaching resource - they are good fun and a relatively easy way to give beginner pupils a sense of achievement. As I've said elsewhere, it's so easy to look down on these pieces, partly because they're evidently not as "good" as "real" Bach, but that's missing the point rather. Taken in their own terms, they're really rather good pieces. Tim
@@timrishton5871 Yes I was started off on these by Herbert Winterbottom in my first organ lessons at Salford University in 1971. I never got much beyond them but I still like them so I've really appreciated your comments and analysis.
@@davidkimmins8781 I'm delighted that this series has been useful and wish you well with playing these pieces. I remember meeting Herbert Winterbottom in the 1970s! Tim
Interesting thoughts taking us pleasantly back to the groves of academe. For my money J.L. Krebs' father Johann Tobias Krebs is the likely author. And while the 16 movements vary in quality or intensity I can't say it's more so than with Bach's WTC book one -- all of which I've performed. The real question is how much justice we can do for instance to the 8SP&P's A minor or G major fugue.
Yes, one of the Krebs (father or son) does seem a very likely candidate for several of the pieces (that G major that you mention, for instance, with its skilful fugue on a humorously off-beat subject). But I find it hard to see either Krebs perpetrating the doubling between l.h. and pedal in the last 4 bars of the F major fugue, for instance. There's lots of really odd moments scattered around these pieces, which is why I threw out an invitation to speculate about multiple composers. But you're absolutely right that the real question is how we play the pieces: they're good pieces once we stop blaming them for what they aren't, and they deserve to be taken seriously for what they are. Tim
Some people seem to say that the octave doublings in the bass are acceptable for pedal harpsichord, and that the pieces are written for that instrument. Do you think that makes sense?
@@malcleitch7106 It certainly makes sense that all of the pieces are playable on the pedal harpsichord and several of them are stylistic on the harpsichord. And it was common to switch from the one instrument to the other (you get 18th-century publications that state that music is "for the organ or harpsichord"; partly but not entirely a marketing play). But others are rather less comfortable; rather more organistic. Which again takes us back to these puzzling disparities in the set. I don't just have enough music to hand to make any informed comment, but I can't off hand think of any occasion where an organist-composer writes lh/pedal doublings of that sort even when they have the harpsichord in mind:it's just so counter-cultural.
For all the "8 short" episodes in order, see ruclips.net/p/PLABcWksVExXvcMfZzhf9XLHeXqlSj0QiJ Thanks for all the questions and feedback - all appreciated!
Great episode - I never knew about hemiolas - and such a gorgeous organ. Thankyou
Thank you! Yes, it's a wonderful instrument: a real joy to play. Tim
You have this amazing way of finding new approaches and new perspectives for each piece. I had to laugh about the description of the stonking great hemiola, but I see what you mean.
Thank you for the kind comment! Tim
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, but it won't be the last. Thanks for the information, and great playing. Merci.
Thank you, and welcome here! I hope you enjoy the other videos! Tim
Incidentally, I enjoyed your "Aching Bach" video and commend it to other viewers (ruclips.net/video/tK9sc0ckSpw/видео.html). Tim
@@timrishton5871 Very much appreciated.
This is the only piece in that collection that gave me trouble (and still does today).
How interesting that this particular one gives trouble. Is it a particular place that is troublesome? Tim
Thank you very much for this interesting video! Sometimes I played the prelude myself and I'm positive surprised, that I'm not far away from your approach with my modest skills. But I also heared it played very, very slow and with full organ, sounds like a funeral march. Do you think, it is an option too?
Thank you. I'm very pleased that we're in agreement about the performance style for this piece. I don't like the idea of playing it very slowly and heavily. Often, if the tempo is slowed down very much the pulse of the piece perversely accelerates becase rather than a "crotchet" pulse it sounds like a "quaver" pulse, which then becomes very busy and fussy and does not coincide with the narural harmonic rhythm of the music. And this seems to me to be a gentle and flowing work, so I am not sure that a big full-organ sound quite works. But it's always good to experiment! Tim
@@timrishton5871 Many thanks! A flowing work - that's a good description.
Are the four pairs 1+2, 3+4, 5+6, 7+8? Are the P+F's used much in the UK for teaching purposes, and were they in the past once Bach's organ music was introduced?
Interesting questions - thank you! The "pairs" that I had in mind are not formal pairs; nor are they entirely clear cut. This piece - the E minor - bears some resemblences to no. 6, the G minor. Similarly, the G major (5) and A minor (7) share rhapsodic North-European Baroque techniques. The C major and Bb (1 and 8) are a bit more Italianate. The remaining two - the D minor and F major ones - are outliers in some ways, and I can't suggest that they have a whole lot in common. In fact, the F major is really unlike anything - I'll try to talk about that one next. These preludes and fugues are fairly commonly used for teaching purposes here in Norway, and in my experience, in many parts of Germany too. I can't really answer for the UK, but my understanding is that they have long been a staple teaching repertoire there as well. Should they be? I don't know. Although they lack the sophistication of Orgelbüchlein - which has to be the ultimate teaching resource - they are good fun and a relatively easy way to give beginner pupils a sense of achievement. As I've said elsewhere, it's so easy to look down on these pieces, partly because they're evidently not as "good" as "real" Bach, but that's missing the point rather. Taken in their own terms, they're really rather good pieces. Tim
@@timrishton5871 Yes I was started off on these by Herbert Winterbottom in my first organ lessons at Salford University in 1971. I never got much beyond them but I still like them so I've really appreciated your comments and analysis.
@@davidkimmins8781 I'm delighted that this series has been useful and wish you well with playing these pieces. I remember meeting Herbert Winterbottom in the 1970s! Tim
Interesting thoughts taking us pleasantly back to the groves of academe. For my money J.L. Krebs' father Johann Tobias Krebs is the likely author. And while the 16 movements vary in quality or intensity I can't say it's more so than with Bach's WTC book one -- all of which I've performed. The real question is how much justice we can do for instance to the 8SP&P's A minor or G major fugue.
Yes, one of the Krebs (father or son) does seem a very likely candidate for several of the pieces (that G major that you mention, for instance, with its skilful fugue on a humorously off-beat subject). But I find it hard to see either Krebs perpetrating the doubling between l.h. and pedal in the last 4 bars of the F major fugue, for instance. There's lots of really odd moments scattered around these pieces, which is why I threw out an invitation to speculate about multiple composers. But you're absolutely right that the real question is how we play the pieces: they're good pieces once we stop blaming them for what they aren't, and they deserve to be taken seriously for what they are. Tim
Some people seem to say that the octave doublings in the bass are acceptable for pedal harpsichord, and that the pieces are written for that instrument. Do you think that makes sense?
@@malcleitch7106 That might be it -- am guessing far fewer such instruments have manual to pedal couplers.
@@malcleitch7106 It certainly makes sense that all of the pieces are playable on the pedal harpsichord and several of them are stylistic on the harpsichord. And it was common to switch from the one instrument to the other (you get 18th-century publications that state that music is "for the organ or harpsichord"; partly but not entirely a marketing play). But others are rather less comfortable; rather more organistic. Which again takes us back to these puzzling disparities in the set. I don't just have enough music to hand to make any informed comment, but I can't off hand think of any occasion where an organist-composer writes lh/pedal doublings of that sort even when they have the harpsichord in mind:it's just so counter-cultural.