Well… Henry VII was a forgiving king, and though I find her a formidable Lady, I think her attempts to put a clear fake York on the throne were rather meaningless- were it to put her family back on the throne I’d get it, but she truly just wanted Henry out haha.
@@lfgifu296 Henry VII was forgiving? I've never heard that. Just a few odd facts if Perkin Warbeck was indeed a Dutch peasant. He spoke perfect English, no accent, as well as several other languages as well as being able to read and write different languages. He was very well educated for the son of a boatman. When he was in Holland he had to be sent to a special ‘English school’ to learn Dutch. Odd for a native Dutch speaker. The King of Scotland married him to a member of his family. He looked almost identical to Edward IV and was very tall. Was said ‘to be very like Edward’. He had the droopy eyelid recessive in the Plantagenet line, shared by Henry III and Edward I. He was gifted musically, as had been the prince. When he was taken out to be executed, Henry VII had his face smashed to a pulp so no one could see the striking resemblance to Edward IV. He was buried at Austin Friars, a cemetery reserved for the nobility. Another oddity for a purported Dutch peasant. Here are a few others buried there: Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford • Sir Philip le Despenser • Edward of Angoulême • Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel • Lucia Visconti • Sir John Tyrrell • Sir James Tyrrell • Sir Thomas Cooke • William de Berkeley, 1st Marquess of Berkeley • • Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Baron Berkeley • Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham There is a room in the Ducal Palace at Bruges called to this day ‘Richard’s room.’ If they were looking for an impostor, it would be almost astronomically impossible to find such a perfect one. Henry knew exactly who he was.
@MyrnaMinkoff-yy4qd I think Perkin Warbeck was one of the illegitimate sons of the brothers when they found sanctuary at Margaret's Court. Not even an illegitimate son of Edward, George maybe or one of the cousins. There were so many Plantagenets before Henry Tudor. But her family WAS on the Throne. Her niece Elizabeth was Queen, and Arthur,Margaret,Henry Mary,Edmund,Elizabeth and Katherine their children also in power (the 3 who survived into adulthood)
Margaret of York was an interesting woman who had all the qualities of leadership that many of the men around her did not have. Excellent narration and video.
Thank you, I'm pleased you enjoyed it! 😊 And I agree, she certainly had a knack for seeing what was coming and dealing with it. If only they hadn't had silly ideas about ladies not taking the throne!
As an American, British history is (generally) distilled down to the Tudors and the Victorians. I am indescribably happy that these resources exist. To show, in an engaging way, that there is sooo much more interesting history in Britain than I was taught!
Oh, trust me, over here in school it used to be very distilled as well! 🤣 It has got better in recent years, and especially with spreading out to world history in general.
Agree, secondary school history in the early 60's started with Henry VIII, no Saxons,Vikings or Plantagenets, or even that we had a couple of Viking Kings in England. However now I've retired I'm working my way through history. I'm up to the Plantagenets and have recently joined the Richard 111 Society. You're never too old to learn.😊 s@@HistorysForgottenPeople
Great video. You should also cover Lady Agnes Randolph, the Countess of Dunbar (also known as Black Agnes for her dark complexion) who successfully defended Dunbar Castle (and Scotland) from an English invasion in the most unorthodox but quite humorous siege in history. Great story you’ll really enjoy researching.
I never heard about the Seige of Dunbar, I just looked it up - very humorous! The part about her ladies-in-waiting dusting off the ramparts is brilliant. 🤣 Agnes is definitely on the list!
@@HistorysForgottenPeople excellent. I also forgot to mention last time that my other recommendations Queen Nanny of the Maroons and Gwenllian ferch Gruffyd’s stories also have their myths associated which I know you like. BTW you make great videos.
@Crocodile Dundee Thank you, that's very kind of you to say! 😊 And I've been reading up on Gwenllian ferch Gruffyd from when you mentioned her, she should be coming up in a few weeks.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople fan-freaking-tastic. I’ve scoured RUclips for her but couldn’t find anyone. This makes you the first to cover her. BTW would you also cover Australian and New Zealand history on this channel too.
Fascinating, and I've always thought she knew that one or both of The Princes in the Tower were alive. Richard always struck me as someone ruthless enough to disinherit children but pious enough not to murder them, preferring to stash them away. His sister seemed like an obvious ally in this. I am especially open to the idea that Perkin Warbuck was the real deal and she knew it. I know it's not a common opinion, but there's a great book called The Survival of the Princes of the Tower that explores this idea. On top of that, she seems like a fascinating and brilliant woman.
The whole Princes in the Tower mystery fascinates me, as well. Add that just a few days before their disappearance, Prince Edward asked for a doctor because he was ill, and thought he was close to death. I always think it is - weirdly - the main reason Richard didn't kill them. If you wanted them out of the way, and everyone knows a doctor has been called for the boys, either let nature take its course, or make it look like it did. Then, a lavish royal funeral as the nephews of the king. Having no funeral for them points to either; someone kidnapped them (doesn't rule out later death), or someone else killed them and disposed of the bodies. This is all my own conjecture, of course! I'm sure lots of holes can probably be poked in it. 😊 But certainly, whether Margaret of York truly believed Perkin Warbeck was her nephew or wanted to believe it (I always imagine an 'Anastasia' situation), she recognised he was the best chance of gaining the throne back for her family.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Richard's behavior was just odd. If he had murdered them, he should have made it look like natural causes and shown around the bodies, as his brother did with Henry VI. It's possible someone botched the job and thus they had to get rid of the bodies. But then he could have pinned the murders on someone else, like Buckingham, at least for show. But he didn't. And he didn't murder his brother George's son Edward, who had an arguably better claim than Richard. He may have at least thought the princes might be alive or, as I said, had sent one or both to his sister. Or at least told his sister where they might be. If they were alive, they would have been a massive threat to Henrys VII and VIII, that's for sure, so any evidence they had would be destroyed. It is one of the great historical mysteries because nothing really makes sense and we have to be missing pieces. Fun to discuss. At least no one thinks it was aliens!
@sdl1ishappy Hahaha, that closing sentence is a summons to the ancient aliens crowd, luckily its probably a small subset interested in such subjects as this lol. 😅
@@sdl1ishappyAlso, if Richard murdered the princes why didn't Henry proclaim it after Bosworth? With a shaky hold on the throne it would be much to his advantage to label Richard as the murderer of his nephews, thus saving England from the dastardly Richard. Henry's subsequent behavior points to the idea that he himself was in doubt as to their fate.
This amazing video explains everything beautifully and succinctly. You ring all sorts of information together in a coherent mini=documentary. Margie was definitely a formidable woman, much like Queen Elizabeth I. Glad to find your channel.
Thank you so much, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 Margaret definitely was a force to be reckoned with - it makes me wonder what she might have been like as England's queen, had England been open to the idea of a female ruler at that time.
Thanks for a great video! What an interesting character Margaret was and woman you should not mess with! I have a wish for a new video: Princess Cecilia of Sweden and her maid Helena Snakenborg have a really fascinating story. Please, please make video of these two women, especially Helena. They made an epic journey by land from Sweden to Elisabeth I court in England. Cecilia was there to propose the queen for her brother the king of Sweden. Helena accompanied her and found love from the court, stayed, married and became the Marchioness of Northampton.
Thanks for this presentation of an important and often overlooked person. A nitpick: George wasn't Margaret's older brother as he was born after her, in 1449. I'm a little disappointed that no mention was made of Juana of Castile, wife of Philip the Handsome and the reason for his going to Spain and leaving their children to Margaret, or the brief marriage of Philip's sister Margaret to Juana's brother Juan.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople That will be very exciting: there's some fairly recent research out there by Bethany Aram and Gillian Fleming which throws a whole new light on what is probable truth and what is legend!
Don't forget also that Margaret dowager duchess of Burgundy was also the aunt of king Henry VII's wife - Margaret of York -it must have been difficult to reconcile this fact with her determined opposition to that English king who founded the Tudor dynasty.
You're right - someone else mentioned that fact! I assume she understood Elizabeth will have had little choice in her marriage, and perhaps considered her differently because of that fact. There's also the complication that Margaret reportedly didn't like Elizabeth's mother, Elizabeth Woodville, and so that perhaps influenced her way of thinking, too?
Again 😀 thank you Lucy Worsley for your most i n depth info on 13th to beyond of history. Its so awesome 👌. Been watching /listening since history Channel. Your trusted. Hugs
Thank you! 😊 Don't worry, they may well come up as I'm going to be doing a lot more House of Lancaster videos, and I've got some Welsh history ones coming up, too!
I realize that I am a little late for the party only just discovering your wonderful channel. I have always had a soft spot for all things English Royalty in the medieval period. I have been thoroughly impressed with the variety of subjects covered in your videos. However I would like to make one observation that I find somewhat off putting and that is the medieval flute music in the background. It can become very distracting while watching and trying to listen to the narration. Just a thought. Otherwise I am greatly enjoying all your videos.
That's my belief, too. If either of her nephews had really escaped, and their supporters wanted them to be safe in Europe somewhere, Margaret literally would have been the first choice to keep them under her protection, even if not publicly. But when Perkin Warbeck turned up with nice manners and a good resemblance, all Margaret would have needed to do is instruct him in courtly matters and fund him.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Just a few odd facts if Perkin Warbeck was indeed a Dutch peasant. He spoke perfect English, no accent, as well as several other languages and was able to read and write different languages. He was very well educated for the son of a boatman. When he was in Holland he had to be sent to a special ‘English school’ to learn Dutch. Odd for a native Dutch speaker. The King of Scotland married him to a member of his family. He looked almost identical to Edward IV and was very tall. Was said ‘to be very like Edward’. He had the droopy eyelid recessive in the Plantagenet line, shared by Henry III and Edward I. He was gifted musically, as had been the prince. When he was taken out to be executed, Henry VII had his face smashed to a pulp so no one could see the striking resemblance to Edward IV. He was buried at Austin Friars, a cemetery reserved for the nobility. Another oddity for a purported Dutch peasant. Here are a few others buried there: Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford Sir Philip le Despenser Edward of Angoulême Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel Lucia Visconti Sir John Tyrrell Sir James Tyrrell Sir Thomas Cooke William de Berkeley, 1st Marquess of Berkeley Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Baron Berkeley Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham There is a room in the Ducal Palace at Bruges called to this day ‘Richard’s room.’ If they were looking for an impostor, it would be almost astronomically impossible to find such a perfect one. Henry knew exactly who he was.
@@MyrnaMinkoff-yy4qd Oh, my. The plot thickens, the boy might have been and English Prince or at least son of Edward IV, maybe one of his many bastards, of similar age to one of the princes in the Tower 😊
@@EmaAgafiteiYou are brilliant! Edward 4th was a known womanizer. Perkin could absolutely be one of his many bastards. I believe the only one who was recognized was Arthur Plantagenant
Poor Margaret. Never got a fair chance to be a mother, her husband's ambitions overshadowing her. Or perhaps it was intentional as her husband wanted his daughter to succeed him. The valuable intended marriage alliance to Maximilian would certainly make this a strong possibility if he was trying to make burgundy its own country or at least its own principality. But it also means Margaret never had to endure the terrible issues surrounding childbirth back then.
The painting of Margaret with the very oversized head looks eerie. Was it common at this time for such unrealistic portraits to be made? The Low Countries during this period had excellent artists, so the caricatural nature of the portrait surely can’t be ascribed to a lack of availability of talented portraitists..
The portrait is so strange! I feel as though it was either very stylized (although I couldn't find many other paintings like this), or just simply not a very good artist. It's especially odd when you see portraits of her husband, Charles the Bold, which are very good, or those of her step-daughter, Mary of Burgundy, which are also well painted. What's really strange is that Margaret of York became a seriously wealthy lady, and it would have been easy to have someone else paint her portrait, but it doesn't seem to have happened - this one is thought to have been painted just before her wedding. Maybe there's a painting out there of her that just hasn't been recognised yet?
@@HistorysForgottenPeople I am a staunch Yorkist . Because I share my Birthday with Edward Plantaganet 17th earl of Warwick, son of George Duke of Clarence . 🤍🤍🤍🤍
It would be interesting to know her exact thoughts - I'll have to look around and see if maybe that is shown somewhere. I imagine on the one hand she wasn't very impressed, but also Margaret will have been acutely aware of how little say Elizabeth had in her marriage to Henry. I know Edward IV's family were not very impressed with Elizabeth Woodville, but whether that continued to her children, I'm not sure.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople didn't seem to apply to male heirs that could used against the Tudors. Those were Elizabeth Woodville's sons as well. Those princes in the tower.
Another question! (As I’m pretty sure I’ll forget if I leave it to next Friday) what do you think of Henry II? Both as a monarch and person? (I’ll give my thoughts on him after you :)
I quite like Henry II! His mother was my heroine, Empress Matilda, and he showed her a huge amount of respect (even calling himself Henry Fitzempress), including her as his most important advisor. I think he was a good king, he seems to have been intelligent and aware of what the country needed - such as his overhaul of the state administration, and his later attempts to reform the English Church. Although, of course, Thomas Beckett getting killed WAS wrapped up in that, as well. I also think he had a big task ahead of him with his three sons, separating his lands fairly between them, and that was tricky no matter what. When his wife, Eleanor was alone in Aquitaine for a number of years, she was gradually given more and more autonomy over her lands, and probably would have remained that way had the attempted coup by Eleanor and his sons had not occurred. Points against Henry - possibly imprisoning his wife for over 15 years? Although I also think there was a legitimate fear of how clever and powerful Eleanor was, and Henry genuinely didn't know what else to do with her after the revolt. There's also Rosamund Clifford (along with other mistresses). I can't have too much of a go at people who have to marry politically then falling in love with someone else,but you can have a go at them flaunting it. Eleanor was well aware of her queenly status, and it must have been galling to see her husband publicly showing the mistress off at court. Not to mention if Eleanor had a public affair, she would have been treated very differently. So overall, I like him a lot as a king, but I also think k Henry had some flaws that made him human. I also think he had to juggle a lot of different balls, and that made every decision difficult to keep everyone happy at the same time.
@@HistorysForgottenPeoplewell I completely forgot to answer oops👀 but I agree with you! As I’ve said before, he is my favourite Plantagenet King, and I do feel sorry for his later years. Ofc, imprisoning one’s wife isn’t very… good?😭 and his mistresses, which he flaunted, must’ve been a humiliation for such a strong woman as Eleanor- or anyone, really-. But ofc, she did attempt a coup against him, and was a strong and intelligent woman, so, I can understand keeping her confined… All in all, not the best person, but, in my opinion, one of the best monarchs!
I know it's been a year but I have to reply about Henry II....my favorite king and I am obsessed with Eleanor of Aquitaine....they are the progenitors of these people so it's interesting to me to see this heritage passed down....plantagenets
As a committed Yorkshirewoman, I'm on the sides of the Yorkists too! Although I do feel had I actually been alive at the time I would probably have just been annoyed at the rich folks fighting and tearing up the fields constantly. 🤣
Me too, from what I've read about Henry VII I really don't like him at all. It must have been ghastly for Princess Elizabeth to have to marry him and he didn't share his Coronation with her, keeping her waiting for her wedding and Coronating her separately Poor girl. ⚔️🛡️⚔️
What does "cousins in the 4th degree" mean? Here in the U.S. we have 2cd cousins, 3rd cousins and so on. So would that be 4th cousins? Here it is my grandkids and my sisters grandkids are 2cd cousins.
Essentially, yes. 😊 We would also say 4th cousins nowadays - it basically means that Margaret and Charles shared a great-grandparent, who was John of Gaunt. (Although there could also be other connections I can't remember off the top of my head).
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Thank you so much for answering. I've been curious about this for so long. LOL. I'm a huge history buff. Especially the medieval times. I watch every biography or documentary that I can. And thank you for doing this one. Margaret of York(Burgundy) has been a favorite of mine and this is the first documentary that I've seen on her. I loved hearing the details that you have in it. Thank you.
It's possible, we know she definitely outlived all of her brothers. Her sister Elizabeth of York died sometime after January 1503, so it's possible she died before Margaret did in November that year.
I always wonder, after making fortunes yet drawing ire from a monarch...why didn't Margaret & other nobles flee England?? I would be so gone. Screw the land & titles. Heads rolled, especially in Henry VIII's court.
Thank you for sharing this story. For me, Margaret is an example of what Princess Diana could have been like, if she had not died in car accident, raising her boys to adulthood.
Diana would not have ever been any of it because all she wanted was the desperate for attention and was jealous since Charles loved Camilla even though Diana never loved him either and had numerous affairs. She was mentally ill and a total manipulator who wanted to hang out and schmooze with celebrities and pop stars and she sought to undermine the monarchy and did everything at Charles' expense and wanted to have the people favor her over Charles. It was even debatable who was Harry's father since she had a high profile and well documented affair with James Hewitt shortly before she was pregnant with Harry. She did not have the same education standards to actually rule anything. Far too many people insisted on putting her on a pedestal when she was no saint by any stretch of the imagination and they need to stop representing her as one because she did not love Charles any more than he loved her. His family only wanted her for her lineage and bloodline and for breeding anyway.
I think (based on anecdotal evidence from her letters and such), historians believe George was her favourite brother. I think Margaret got on well with all of her brothers, certainly there doesn't seem to have been a lot of conflict between herself and them the way they fought with each other, but there may have been a lot unsaid. There were times Edward did not help with sending her husband enough aid (or at all), but no doubt she will have seen politically the reasons for this. I also think most noble or royal women, once they were married elsewhere, that became their main sphere of interest even though blood-ties remained - siblings and parents often didn't see each other for years or even decades after royal marriages to foreign rulers. Margaret was probably more wrapped up in Burgundy's interests while her brothers were alive, and it was only after Henry VII took the English throne that she became more involved in England's politics.
She apparently did wear it for the tournament, but only that one time before gifting it to Aachen Cathedral for the Virgin Mary statue (where apparently another was also made for the Christ Child, part of the same statue). As you say, it was likely always intended as something ornamental, but Margaret is recorded as wearing it at least for the tournament, alongside her husband wearing a larger and heavier one.
There could be a number of reasons, I suppose. They didn't spend much time together, but there could also have been reasons of infertility. Charles only one child in his previous marriage as well, so the fault could have lain with him.
Love the history of the Tudors I always thought Henry was a better king than Richard would have been both Henrys did what they had to I guess to keep the throne
I wouldn't have said she was a pawn, as Margaret certainly didn't make decisions that tallied with what Louis XI wanted, but it's true that he had conspiracies upon conspiracies surrounding everyone in Europe at that time.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople I am sorry but she was a pawn ! As long as she was a York she had to take sides.....and of course she took English side. This is why Louis XI made her life a hell like he did to Marie and Maximilian. Louis XI had only one goal : destroy Burgundy, annihilate Brittany and make England a dwarf on the continent.
He had some very exaggerated portraits! There are a few where Louis looks a lot less like a caricature, and I wondered which one was closer to the real him - considering the artist wouldn't get paid unless he liked it!
Thank you for watching! 😊 Do you think Margaret of York would have been a good queen? And what are your thoughts on her attempts to remove Henry VII?
Well… Henry VII was a forgiving king, and though I find her a formidable Lady, I think her attempts to put a clear fake York on the throne were rather meaningless- were it to put her family back on the throne I’d get it, but she truly just wanted Henry out haha.
But as to the first question, yes, I believe she would have been a good Queen- maybe a little too ruthless, but nevertheless strong-.
@@lfgifu296 Henry VII was forgiving? I've never heard that. Just a few odd facts if Perkin Warbeck was indeed a Dutch peasant.
He spoke perfect English, no accent, as well as several other languages as well as being able to read and write different languages. He was very well educated for the son of a boatman.
When he was in Holland he had to be sent to a special ‘English school’ to learn Dutch. Odd for a native Dutch speaker.
The King of Scotland married him to a member of his family.
He looked almost identical to Edward IV and was very tall. Was said ‘to be very like Edward’.
He had the droopy eyelid recessive in the Plantagenet line, shared by Henry III and Edward I.
He was gifted musically, as had been the prince.
When he was taken out to be executed, Henry VII had his face smashed to a pulp so no one could see the striking resemblance to Edward IV.
He was buried at Austin Friars, a cemetery reserved for the nobility. Another oddity for a purported Dutch peasant. Here are a few others buried there:
Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford
• Sir Philip le Despenser
• Edward of Angoulême
• Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel
• Lucia Visconti
• Sir John Tyrrell
• Sir James Tyrrell
• Sir Thomas Cooke
• William de Berkeley, 1st Marquess of Berkeley
•
• Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Baron Berkeley
• Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham
There is a room in the Ducal Palace at Bruges called to this day ‘Richard’s room.’
If they were looking for an impostor, it would be almost astronomically impossible to find such a perfect one.
Henry knew exactly who he was.
She would have been a brilliant queen, and I don't blame her at all for trying to usurp Henry VII by whatever means necessary!
@MyrnaMinkoff-yy4qd I think Perkin Warbeck was one of the illegitimate sons of the brothers when they found sanctuary at Margaret's Court. Not even an illegitimate son of Edward, George maybe or one of the cousins. There were so many Plantagenets before Henry Tudor. But her family WAS on the Throne. Her niece Elizabeth was Queen, and Arthur,Margaret,Henry Mary,Edmund,Elizabeth and Katherine their children also in power (the 3 who survived into adulthood)
Margaret of York was an interesting woman who had all the qualities of leadership that many of the men around her did not have. Excellent narration and video.
Thank you, I'm pleased you enjoyed it! 😊 And I agree, she certainly had a knack for seeing what was coming and dealing with it. If only they hadn't had silly ideas about ladies not taking the throne!
Hell Yes she was. She haunted Henry Tudor's Dreams !
As an American, British history is (generally) distilled down to the Tudors and the Victorians.
I am indescribably happy that these resources exist. To show, in an engaging way, that there is sooo much more interesting history in Britain than I was taught!
Oh, trust me, over here in school it used to be very distilled as well! 🤣 It has got better in recent years, and especially with spreading out to world history in general.
But there is so much more that is lost unfortunately. If there is a library in heaven I would practically live there reading on lost history.
Agree, secondary school history in the early 60's started with Henry VIII, no Saxons,Vikings or Plantagenets, or even that we had a couple of Viking Kings in England. However now I've retired I'm working my way through history. I'm up to the Plantagenets and have recently joined the Richard 111 Society. You're never too old to learn.😊 s@@HistorysForgottenPeople
Great video. You should also cover Lady Agnes Randolph, the Countess of Dunbar (also known as Black Agnes for her dark complexion) who successfully defended Dunbar Castle (and Scotland) from an English invasion in the most unorthodox but quite humorous siege in history. Great story you’ll really enjoy researching.
I never heard about the Seige of Dunbar, I just looked it up - very humorous! The part about her ladies-in-waiting dusting off the ramparts is brilliant. 🤣 Agnes is definitely on the list!
@@HistorysForgottenPeople excellent. I also forgot to mention last time that my other recommendations Queen Nanny of the Maroons and Gwenllian ferch Gruffyd’s stories also have their myths associated which I know you like. BTW you make great videos.
@Crocodile Dundee Thank you, that's very kind of you to say! 😊 And I've been reading up on Gwenllian ferch Gruffyd from when you mentioned her, she should be coming up in a few weeks.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople fan-freaking-tastic. I’ve scoured RUclips for her but couldn’t find anyone. This makes you the first to cover her.
BTW would you also cover Australian and New Zealand history on this channel too.
@@crocodiledundee8685 It doesn’t look like she’s interested in Australian or New Zealand history.
Fascinating, and I've always thought she knew that one or both of The Princes in the Tower were alive. Richard always struck me as someone ruthless enough to disinherit children but pious enough not to murder them, preferring to stash them away. His sister seemed like an obvious ally in this. I am especially open to the idea that Perkin Warbuck was the real deal and she knew it. I know it's not a common opinion, but there's a great book called The Survival of the Princes of the Tower that explores this idea.
On top of that, she seems like a fascinating and brilliant woman.
The whole Princes in the Tower mystery fascinates me, as well. Add that just a few days before their disappearance, Prince Edward asked for a doctor because he was ill, and thought he was close to death. I always think it is - weirdly - the main reason Richard didn't kill them. If you wanted them out of the way, and everyone knows a doctor has been called for the boys, either let nature take its course, or make it look like it did. Then, a lavish royal funeral as the nephews of the king.
Having no funeral for them points to either; someone kidnapped them (doesn't rule out later death), or someone else killed them and disposed of the bodies. This is all my own conjecture, of course! I'm sure lots of holes can probably be poked in it. 😊
But certainly, whether Margaret of York truly believed Perkin Warbeck was her nephew or wanted to believe it (I always imagine an 'Anastasia' situation), she recognised he was the best chance of gaining the throne back for her family.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Richard's behavior was just odd. If he had murdered them, he should have made it look like natural causes and shown around the bodies, as his brother did with Henry VI. It's possible someone botched the job and thus they had to get rid of the bodies.
But then he could have pinned the murders on someone else, like Buckingham, at least for show. But he didn't.
And he didn't murder his brother George's son Edward, who had an arguably better claim than Richard.
He may have at least thought the princes might be alive or, as I said, had sent one or both to his sister. Or at least told his sister where they might be.
If they were alive, they would have been a massive threat to Henrys VII and VIII, that's for sure, so any evidence they had would be destroyed.
It is one of the great historical mysteries because nothing really makes sense and we have to be missing pieces. Fun to discuss. At least no one thinks it was aliens!
@sdl1ishappy Hahaha, that closing sentence is a summons to the ancient aliens crowd, luckily its probably a small subset interested in such subjects as this lol. 😅
@@sdl1ishappyAlso, if Richard murdered the princes why didn't Henry proclaim it after Bosworth? With a shaky hold on the throne it would be much to his advantage to label Richard as the murderer of his nephews, thus saving England from the dastardly Richard. Henry's subsequent behavior points to the idea that he himself was in doubt as to their fate.
All I had previously heard about Margaret was her support for Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. Thanks for giving us more of her story!
You're welcome! 😊 She definitely deserves more of a mention, I think, especially as her role was so much bigger in Burgundy after her husband's death.
I'm glad her brother gave her a choice over her marriage.
I find Margaret fascinating and such an intelligent woman, best of all she treasured books.
This amazing video explains everything beautifully and succinctly. You ring all sorts of information together in a coherent mini=documentary. Margie was definitely a formidable woman, much like Queen Elizabeth I. Glad to find your channel.
Thank you so much, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 Margaret definitely was a force to be reckoned with - it makes me wonder what she might have been like as England's queen, had England been open to the idea of a female ruler at that time.
Thanks for a great video! What an interesting character Margaret was and woman you should not mess with! I have a wish for a new video: Princess Cecilia of Sweden and her maid Helena Snakenborg have a really fascinating story. Please, please make video of these two women, especially Helena. They made an epic journey by land from Sweden to Elisabeth I court in England. Cecilia was there to propose the queen for her brother the king of Sweden. Helena accompanied her and found love from the court, stayed, married and became the Marchioness of Northampton.
Thank you! 😊 I will definitely have a look at Princess Cecilia and Helena, thank you for the suggestion!
Thanks for this presentation of an important and often overlooked person. A nitpick: George wasn't Margaret's older brother as he was born after her, in 1449.
I'm a little disappointed that no mention was made of Juana of Castile, wife of Philip the Handsome and the reason for his going to Spain and leaving their children to Margaret, or the brief marriage of Philip's sister Margaret to Juana's brother Juan.
That's mainly because Juana is getting her own video in the not too-distant future. 😉
@@HistorysForgottenPeople That will be very exciting: there's some fairly recent research out there by Bethany Aram and Gillian Fleming which throws a whole new light on what is probable truth and what is legend!
Don't forget also that Margaret dowager duchess of Burgundy was also the aunt of king Henry VII's wife - Margaret of York -it must have been difficult to reconcile this fact with her determined opposition to that English king who founded the Tudor dynasty.
Sorry! I meant Elizabeth of York queen of England -daughter of Margaret's brother king Edward IV.
You're right - someone else mentioned that fact! I assume she understood Elizabeth will have had little choice in her marriage, and perhaps considered her differently because of that fact. There's also the complication that Margaret reportedly didn't like Elizabeth's mother, Elizabeth Woodville, and so that perhaps influenced her way of thinking, too?
Again 😀 thank you Lucy Worsley for your most i n depth info on 13th to beyond of history. Its so awesome 👌. Been watching /listening since history Channel. Your trusted. Hugs
This isn’t Lucy.
I think I said in a previous video I'm not Lucy Worsley, although it's flattering to be compared! 🤣 I definitely drop more 'h's than she does!
This was great! I hope you do a segment on Mary the Rich :)
I did watch the video on Friday when it came out, but was so sleepy I forgot to comment😭 Anyways great video!
Thank you! 😊
Was margaret really heartbroken over her stepdaughter death.
Great video. I thoroughly enjoyed the pace and style.
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊
Very interesting video 😊
Maybe you should do videos about Isabella de Beaumont and Eleanor Clare?
Thank you! 😊 Don't worry, they may well come up as I'm going to be doing a lot more House of Lancaster videos, and I've got some Welsh history ones coming up, too!
I realize that I am a little late for the party only just discovering your wonderful channel. I have always had a soft spot for all things English Royalty in the medieval period. I have been thoroughly impressed with the variety of subjects covered in your videos. However I would like to make one observation that I find somewhat off putting and that is the medieval flute music in the background. It can become very distracting while watching and trying to listen to the narration. Just a thought. Otherwise I am greatly enjoying all your videos.
Margaret definitely knew that the imposters who wanted her help weren’t really her kin, she just wanted to stick it to Henry VII.
That's my belief, too. If either of her nephews had really escaped, and their supporters wanted them to be safe in Europe somewhere, Margaret literally would have been the first choice to keep them under her protection, even if not publicly. But when Perkin Warbeck turned up with nice manners and a good resemblance, all Margaret would have needed to do is instruct him in courtly matters and fund him.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Just like imposter Dmitris in Russia.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Just a few odd facts if Perkin Warbeck was indeed a Dutch peasant.
He spoke perfect English, no accent, as well as several other languages and was able to read and write different languages. He was very well educated for the son of a boatman.
When he was in Holland he had to be sent to a special ‘English school’ to learn Dutch. Odd for a native Dutch speaker.
The King of Scotland married him to a member of his family.
He looked almost identical to Edward IV and was very tall. Was said ‘to be very like Edward’.
He had the droopy eyelid recessive in the Plantagenet line, shared by Henry III and Edward I.
He was gifted musically, as had been the prince.
When he was taken out to be executed, Henry VII had his face smashed to a pulp so no one could see the striking resemblance to Edward IV.
He was buried at Austin Friars, a cemetery reserved for the nobility. Another oddity for a purported Dutch peasant. Here are a few others buried there:
Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford
Sir Philip le Despenser
Edward of Angoulême
Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel
Lucia Visconti
Sir John Tyrrell
Sir James Tyrrell
Sir Thomas Cooke
William de Berkeley, 1st Marquess of Berkeley
Maurice Berkeley, 3rd Baron Berkeley
Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham
There is a room in the Ducal Palace at Bruges called to this day ‘Richard’s room.’
If they were looking for an impostor, it would be almost astronomically impossible to find such a perfect one.
Henry knew exactly who he was.
@@MyrnaMinkoff-yy4qd Oh, my. The plot thickens, the boy might have been and English Prince or at least son of Edward IV, maybe one of his many bastards, of similar age to one of the princes in the Tower 😊
@@EmaAgafiteiYou are brilliant! Edward 4th was a known womanizer. Perkin could absolutely be one of his many bastards. I believe the only one who was recognized was Arthur Plantagenant
Poor Margaret. Never got a fair chance to be a mother, her husband's ambitions overshadowing her.
Or perhaps it was intentional as her husband wanted his daughter to succeed him. The valuable intended marriage alliance to Maximilian would certainly make this a strong possibility if he was trying to make burgundy its own country or at least its own principality.
But it also means Margaret never had to endure the terrible issues surrounding childbirth back then.
The painting of Margaret with the very oversized head looks eerie. Was it common at this time for such unrealistic portraits to be made? The Low Countries during this period had excellent artists, so the caricatural nature of the portrait surely can’t be ascribed to a lack of availability of talented portraitists..
The portrait is so strange! I feel as though it was either very stylized (although I couldn't find many other paintings like this), or just simply not a very good artist. It's especially odd when you see portraits of her husband, Charles the Bold, which are very good, or those of her step-daughter, Mary of Burgundy, which are also well painted. What's really strange is that Margaret of York became a seriously wealthy lady, and it would have been easy to have someone else paint her portrait, but it doesn't seem to have happened - this one is thought to have been painted just before her wedding. Maybe there's a painting out there of her that just hasn't been recognised yet?
While we’re still on the “Wars of the Roses” topic, who would you support? York or Lancaster?
As a Yorkshire lass, it would have to be the House of York! Plus I like Margaret. 🤣😊
@@HistorysForgottenPeople I am a staunch Yorkist . Because I share my Birthday with Edward Plantaganet 17th earl of Warwick, son of George Duke of Clarence . 🤍🤍🤍🤍
Can anyone please tell me what type of relationship King Richard iii and Margaret duchess of Burgundy had. ☀️☀️☀️☀️
I wondered what she thought about her niece? Henry Tudor’s Queen.
It would be interesting to know her exact thoughts - I'll have to look around and see if maybe that is shown somewhere. I imagine on the one hand she wasn't very impressed, but also Margaret will have been acutely aware of how little say Elizabeth had in her marriage to Henry. I know Edward IV's family were not very impressed with Elizabeth Woodville, but whether that continued to her children, I'm not sure.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople didn't seem to apply to male heirs that could used against the Tudors. Those were Elizabeth Woodville's sons as well. Those princes in the tower.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople still a very good video. Thank you.
Great video. The music is a bit distracting.
Another question! (As I’m pretty sure I’ll forget if I leave it to next Friday) what do you think of Henry II? Both as a monarch and person? (I’ll give my thoughts on him after you :)
I quite like Henry II! His mother was my heroine, Empress Matilda, and he showed her a huge amount of respect (even calling himself Henry Fitzempress), including her as his most important advisor. I think he was a good king, he seems to have been intelligent and aware of what the country needed - such as his overhaul of the state administration, and his later attempts to reform the English Church. Although, of course, Thomas Beckett getting killed WAS wrapped up in that, as well.
I also think he had a big task ahead of him with his three sons, separating his lands fairly between them, and that was tricky no matter what. When his wife, Eleanor was alone in Aquitaine for a number of years, she was gradually given more and more autonomy over her lands, and probably would have remained that way had the attempted coup by Eleanor and his sons had not occurred.
Points against Henry - possibly imprisoning his wife for over 15 years? Although I also think there was a legitimate fear of how clever and powerful Eleanor was, and Henry genuinely didn't know what else to do with her after the revolt. There's also Rosamund Clifford (along with other mistresses). I can't have too much of a go at people who have to marry politically then falling in love with someone else,but you can have a go at them flaunting it. Eleanor was well aware of her queenly status, and it must have been galling to see her husband publicly showing the mistress off at court. Not to mention if Eleanor had a public affair, she would have been treated very differently.
So overall, I like him a lot as a king, but I also think k Henry had some flaws that made him human. I also think he had to juggle a lot of different balls, and that made every decision difficult to keep everyone happy at the same time.
@@HistorysForgottenPeoplewell I completely forgot to answer oops👀 but I agree with you! As I’ve said before, he is my favourite Plantagenet King, and I do feel sorry for his later years. Ofc, imprisoning one’s wife isn’t very… good?😭 and his mistresses, which he flaunted, must’ve been a humiliation for such a strong woman as Eleanor- or anyone, really-. But ofc, she did attempt a coup against him, and was a strong and intelligent woman, so, I can understand keeping her confined… All in all, not the best person, but, in my opinion, one of the best monarchs!
I know it's been a year but I have to reply about Henry II....my favorite king and I am obsessed with Eleanor of Aquitaine....they are the progenitors of these people so it's interesting to me to see this heritage passed down....plantagenets
@@EGYPTIANQUEEN-p5b I love Henry II too!! After Alfred, he’s my favourite King. And Eleanor is so admirable!!
But by fighting Henry the Vii, He was married to the true last Queen as Elizabeth of York so it wasn't really an upsart
Exactly. Margaret was trying to install an imposter over her own niece!
I’m glad Margaret was such an annoyance to Henry VII. I much prefer the Yorks to the Tudors.
As a committed Yorkshirewoman, I'm on the sides of the Yorkists too! Although I do feel had I actually been alive at the time I would probably have just been annoyed at the rich folks fighting and tearing up the fields constantly. 🤣
Me too, from what I've read about Henry VII I really don't like him at all. It must have been ghastly for Princess Elizabeth to have to marry him and he didn't share his Coronation with her, keeping her waiting for her wedding and Coronating her separately
Poor girl. ⚔️🛡️⚔️
What does "cousins in the 4th degree" mean? Here in the U.S. we have 2cd cousins, 3rd cousins and so on. So would that be 4th cousins? Here it is my grandkids and my sisters grandkids are 2cd cousins.
Essentially, yes. 😊 We would also say 4th cousins nowadays - it basically means that Margaret and Charles shared a great-grandparent, who was John of Gaunt. (Although there could also be other connections I can't remember off the top of my head).
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Thank you so much for answering. I've been curious about this for so long. LOL. I'm a huge history buff. Especially the medieval times. I watch every biography or documentary that I can. And thank you for doing this one. Margaret of York(Burgundy) has been a favorite of mine and this is the first documentary that I've seen on her. I loved hearing the details that you have in it. Thank you.
She was the Lady Di of the time, a wonderful woman
Margaret was an incredible lady, and a formidable politician at a time when women technically weren't officially involved.
Who was Margaret's favorite brother?
I love how she is loyal to House of York at the end of the day
Did margaret outlive all of her siblings?
It's possible, we know she definitely outlived all of her brothers. Her sister Elizabeth of York died sometime after January 1503, so it's possible she died before Margaret did in November that year.
I always wonder, after making fortunes yet drawing ire from a monarch...why didn't Margaret & other nobles flee England?? I would be so gone. Screw the land & titles. Heads rolled, especially in Henry VIII's court.
Burgundy!
Thank you for sharing this story. For me, Margaret is an example of what Princess Diana could have been like, if she had not died in car accident, raising her boys to adulthood.
You must be joking Diana had no political nous at all. Furthermore she was I’ll educated
Diana would not have ever been any of it because all she wanted was the desperate for attention and was jealous since Charles loved Camilla even though Diana never loved him either and had numerous affairs. She was mentally ill and a total manipulator who wanted to hang out and schmooze with celebrities and pop stars and she sought to undermine the monarchy and did everything at Charles' expense and wanted to have the people favor her over Charles. It was even debatable who was Harry's father since she had a high profile and well documented affair with James Hewitt shortly before she was pregnant with Harry. She did not have the same education standards to actually rule anything. Far too many people insisted on putting her on a pedestal when she was no saint by any stretch of the imagination and they need to stop representing her as one because she did not love Charles any more than he loved her. His family only wanted her for her lineage and bloodline and for breeding anyway.
@@lesleyanne5341 Totally agree. Diana may have been a good Mum and a very good clothes horse but she wasn't much use for anything else.
Relationship of Margaret with her brothers ??? Which brother was her favourite ??? ❤❤❤❤
I think (based on anecdotal evidence from her letters and such), historians believe George was her favourite brother. I think Margaret got on well with all of her brothers, certainly there doesn't seem to have been a lot of conflict between herself and them the way they fought with each other, but there may have been a lot unsaid. There were times Edward did not help with sending her husband enough aid (or at all), but no doubt she will have seen politically the reasons for this. I also think most noble or royal women, once they were married elsewhere, that became their main sphere of interest even though blood-ties remained - siblings and parents often didn't see each other for years or even decades after royal marriages to foreign rulers. Margaret was probably more wrapped up in Burgundy's interests while her brothers were alive, and it was only after Henry VII took the English throne that she became more involved in England's politics.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople Please tell me about how was the relationship between Richard iii and Margaret duchess of Burgundy 👑👑 🤍🇬🇧
In the paintings they all have the same face.
Edward's MIL's ties yo the Burgundians probably influenced the marriage choice too
That crown was actually a religious statue crown, not one that she wore.
She apparently did wear it for the tournament, but only that one time before gifting it to Aachen Cathedral for the Virgin Mary statue (where apparently another was also made for the Christ Child, part of the same statue). As you say, it was likely always intended as something ornamental, but Margaret is recorded as wearing it at least for the tournament, alongside her husband wearing a larger and heavier one.
I wonder why she didn’t have any kids.
There could be a number of reasons, I suppose. They didn't spend much time together, but there could also have been reasons of infertility. Charles only one child in his previous marriage as well, so the fault could have lain with him.
Not to be sexist but he might have found her to old or she just might not have been able
Rumour had it, he wasnt really interested in his wife
Probably think they didn't really have to since he already had a son
I just found out she is my 13th grandmother
😊❤😊❤😊❤😊❤😊❤
Margaret of York is my 3rd cousin 17x removed.
I always love how connected so many people can be off one person from the past. 😊 Margaret of York is an incredible ancestor to have!
What I know she was a decent stepmother.
She certainly was - and step-grandmother too!
Love the history of the Tudors I always thought Henry was a better king than Richard would have been both Henrys did what they had to I guess to keep the throne
Margaret of York was just a pawn in the hands of the Universal Spider : king Louis XI.
I wouldn't have said she was a pawn, as Margaret certainly didn't make decisions that tallied with what Louis XI wanted, but it's true that he had conspiracies upon conspiracies surrounding everyone in Europe at that time.
@@HistorysForgottenPeople I am sorry but she was a pawn ! As long as she was a York she had to take sides.....and of course she took English side. This is why Louis XI made her life a hell like he did to Marie and Maximilian. Louis XI had only one goal : destroy Burgundy, annihilate Brittany and make England a dwarf on the continent.
8:16 no offence to French ppl but Louis looks so stereotypically French here😭
He had some very exaggerated portraits! There are a few where Louis looks a lot less like a caricature, and I wondered which one was closer to the real him - considering the artist wouldn't get paid unless he liked it!
Whereas the English king looks so stereopically ....stupid ! 🤣🤣