The Character Assassination of Son Gohan | DBZ
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
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Son Gohan, where did it go so wrong?
#dragonball #dragonballsuper #dragonballz
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War Thunder is a highly detailed vehicle combat game containing over 2,000 playable tanks, aircraft, and ships spanning over 100 years of development. Immerse yourself completely in dynamic battles with an unparalleled combination of realism and approachability.
I think Gohan was indirectly protecting his humanity more than his Saiyanity.
Think about it. Gohan knows nothing of space and yet he is already afraid of what is coming from space to attack earth. In the scenario of Raditz arrival, that is.
He doesn’t know of his Saiyan blood, because Goku doesn’t speak well about his Saiyan blood as he himself lack the knowledge of being a Saiyan.
When Raditz came to Earth, that is when Goku went on his pure Saiyan instinct and Gohan the polar opposite: his human instinct.
And guess who else feared for the appearance of Raditz at first hand? Krillin, Bulma and Master Roshi. Who are humans like his mother Chichi. Who raised Gohan.
Feared of an alien that was related to Goku and acted in a way that Goku had never did that the brother sees failure of him doing.
And his Saiyan name Kakarot never stuck to Goku and Goku holding on to memories of his grandfather Son Gohan’s passed his grandfather’s name to Gohan, which stuck to Gohan the way that his name stuck to Goku.
Gohan is human in the mind, but half Saiyan in his blood.
I'm lowkey insulted you think as dbz fans you think we like body pillows
I do think Gohan disliking fighting like Goku does, is very valid take. But i do agree with your point, that Gohan never shrinked from a fight before. Yeah he doesn't have the same drive and enjoyment out of it, and him being afraid of becoming soem bloodthirsty monster is valid. But he always had motivation to fight to protect others.
I believe its in the time between end of Cell games and beginning of the Buu saga. Those years off camera being raised by Chichi without Goku in the picture, clearly made him soft. Not to mention essentially 6-7 years of peace. But yeah gohan became a bitch and goku was written as a brain dead american. While the Prince was never allowed to succeed not even for a min.
Gohan is not the only character Toriyama and Toyotaro have assassinated/done dirty. The others include:
Yamcha, Chiaotsu, Goten, Trunks, Lunch, Chichi, Piccolo, Tienshinhan, Videl, Lapis, Lazuli and most of all, *Krillin.*
Gohan as a pacifist would've been a perfectly fine concept imo if his motivation to get stronger was for the sole purpose of not having to fight ever again and being the absolute strongest being in existence that any threat is trivial. As outlandish as that idea sounds, it's a much better idea than whatever random power-ups he got in Super.
True that heck what if a villain threatened his family or friends he needs to know that he can't always rely on others to do it for him
bro could've just been the dragon ball equivalent to X of the mega man franchise and i would've loved it
That motivation part sounds like Accelerator's from the Toaru series
Like sasuke was intended in the final climax of naruto shippuden
whatever random power ups he got in Super and Z*
I thought Goku's shock at some realization in the Cell Games was that his son wasn't a fighter like him. But it might just have been him thinking wtf Toriyama did to his son in a week
" Hold up, this is not Gohan, this is... this is Gonehan! "
@@rifarira9160Goku be like, "Bro was cooking just a week ago. Whatchu talkin bout Piccolo?!"
That was what his shock was. Piccolo briefly convinced him to question if what he was doing was wrong to Gohan.
@@GeteMachine Wrong. Gohan never liked fighting. Stop simpin, fanboy.
@@dangerousdays2052
Learn how to read.
My problem with him is not learning lessons he should've already learned. He obviously doesn't like fighting but he has already learned that he has to to protect his family.
well, we are talking about a guy who completely reset his mc and make him a joke so he can develop him all over again. so dont expect him to remember side character like gonehan that much
Well by that logic so should Vegeta but he didn't and Goku has the flaw of being too naive and compassionate to his opponents some characteristics are apart of who you are
@rifarira9160 In terms of characters Goku is the one getting devolved. Gohan literally just got that random power plot armor boost in dbs superhero
Hes the one character who should have been molded after either Superman or Peter Parker. Either Gohan is "as strong as he needs to be" but still a nerd at heart, or "great power comes great responsibility" which is what he should have learned to accept after he lost to Buu.
That's exactly what I was saying with that dumb super Frieza arc when he was too weak to help... He learned that lesson in the buu saga already...
Its True, Gohan was Never a Fighting maniac Like his father but he wasn't a Push Over either, he was willing to Fight When the ocassion called for it And was even Shown constantly training to not Get Behind, he was One of those "Superhero" type of characters Who doesn't nessesarily relish in Fighting but was Ready to do It When the situation called for it.
And that is why the Cell Saga should have been the final pin on the paper that Gohan now realizes, he can't reason with all enemies. But his strong enough and has the potential to end a fight in an instant if he really wants to.
So what should have happened is Gohan and Piccolo keeps training once or twice a week so Gohan never has a " Oh shit moment "
That is the reason fans of Gohan like myself will argue to the death, his pacifism is justified against Cell. But after the fight is when Gohan should come to terms with having to fight and end it quick before anyone else are in danger.
@SuddenFool DBZ should have ended with Cell Saga. Quite truthfully it shouldn't have continued after namek, but the cell saga was decent enough. Buu saga was batshit insane and the spirit bomb working when everybody was already dead makes no sense.
Especially considering the spirit bomb never worked before, not even on freiza but by some miracle it kills kid Buu. Cell Saga ruined the story telling aspect of Z and turned it into a race for the next transformation.
@@RubensBarrichello.Already dead? They got brought back by the dragon balls
@@parkerjunior1 misinformation.
The wish was All the innocents killed during the 25th World Martial Arts tournament are brought back. And this was after the fight anyways
Unpopular opinion but I would have watched a buu saga that lingered on Gohan's school life and saiyaman persona with him actually being a light-hearted protagonist who kicks it up when angry.
And a big villain could be introduced especially considering vegeta said he would quit fighting in the cell games just have a weaker villain be introduced that still challenges gohan and the z fighters.
No. That's actually my sentiment. Gohan being stronger and continuing to train while keeping his goofy persona
That was literally the trunks arc in super and almost everyone hated it…
Unfortunately the manga is being sell on worldwide and not just for you. So..........
I think Toriama's biggest mistake was not renaming the show when he wanted to make a reboot/spin-off.
In every DB series the conflict and power creep always scale from one arc to the next, so if the show would be "Super Sayaman's goofy highschool adventures", it should have dropped the Z and went with something else as the title.
Dragon ball GT has a completely different tone than Z, and even though things eventually get serious, you can see from the getgo that it is a completely different show, even down to the protagonists.
If Toriama had done the same for the Buu saga, maybe fans would've accepted this as a new spinoff instead of expecting a natural progression in power scale after Cell.
Gohan telling his OWN mother to "Shut the hell up." is literally insane.
She need to do that so ion blame him
@@drainershuttalz09I mean as a stereotypical Asian parent, if my son told me he’d go to an alien planet for a year, potentially getting himself killed, I’d be going “hell no!” to that as well. I think Chi Chi gets way more hate than she deserves.
@@drainershuttalz09 She's absolutely right to be angry and yel at him bruv.
@@thatnerdyouseeeverywhere7536 As a Balkanian, I would be too afraid of "The leather belt of doom" to talk back.
@ravenouself4181 Jamaicans 🇯🇲 had it bad too with them leather belts especially my mom she didn't play as skinny as she was love her though
Gohan is a good example of how to waste a good character
And he's also a prime example for any aspiring authors. Know how to balance doing what you want and doing what your fans want
😂 what ? Goku has more fans than Gohan and it's not close
Again with this stupid rumor. Toriyama didn’t make Goku the mc again bc of his fans, he made Goku the mc instead of gohan bc gohan didn’t fit the fucking role as the mc. TORIYAMA STATES IT HIMSELF, “I can’t write a compelling story with gohan as the mc so I switched back to Goku”
U stupid gohan fans have to stop coping and making up lies just bc gohan didn’t become the mc. When toriyama himself doesn’t think he fits the role of the main protagonist.
@@garryjohnson9328 I think what they meant is the fact that eveeyone wanted to see Gohan step up
@@michaelnash3218So why would people complain if Gohan finally stood up?
@michaelnash3218 and again you are wrong because I have always disliked Gohan and I'm not even close to the only one
I do agree that Gohan stepping up to the mantle of main character was kinda sloppily handled. The whole pacifist thing is a little forced and he isn’t even part of the story for the majority of the cell/android saga. You can even see this reflected in the movies.
This is the same gohan who tired rebelling against Goku to save piccolo
Gohan defied Goku and Krillin's wishes so he could go back and save goku against Vegeta.
He defied his mother and told her he was going into space for months to bring back Piccolo, as he felt responsible.
He defied Krillin again to save Dende.
He stood defiant against Vegeta on Namek, and refused to back down against the likes of the Ginyu Force and Frieza.
He defied his mother again to fight the androids and Cell.
The whole pacifist thing isn't "a little forced" - It's so out of character and happens out of no where that it'd give the audience whiplash.
From the Cell Games onwards Gohan has been mishandled every step of the way.
@EndoScorpion it's as out of character as gohan when he fought buu, calling super buu a not so nice word starting with r only to end up getting out smarted by the same buu.
Gohan isn't a pacifist tho, at least not the way everyone thinks he is. He wanted to take down Cell but he couldn't activate his full power. It's been stated at least 3 times in the manga.
@@veryangryboi4128 yeah, I know that was part of the issue. That he knew he wasn’t strong enough to beat Cell, but frustrated that he can’t access the power that Goku says he has…
I thought there was a bit of pacifist stuff thrown in there, but we could also be mixing it up with English dub dialogue translation changes and what not. I don’t remember exactly
Honestly, I wish Gohan stayed as the new protagonist of Z because he earned it and for it to be unceremoniously taken away from him is just sad. He could have retconned the "I'm a pacifist" part like he retconned Gohan mirroring Goku and people wouldn't care because they'd get the Gohan they wanted.
Yeah but Goku's the main character... I would say he's also earned the title
To this day, I still say Adult Gohan should have become a teacher like Master Roshi. Sure, he doesn't like fighting, but imagine how hard it would be to threaten the Earth with hundreds or thousands of trained humans to defend their planet. That way, Gohan could have been a leading researcher in ki while letting other people take up the fight.
He don't like to fight so no
@@robotboy765 Gohan had no issue training, until the plot needed him to have an issue.
God I hate what Tori did with my former survivor boy @@robotboy765
The other Z fighters became useless how are humans gonna fight outside threats?
Adult gohan much later in the future did write a book all about martial arts and ki control for humans to use, in Dragonball online’s lore
But then again even with all that i still don’t rlly see humans being strong and smart enough like saiyans to defend the earth from powerful threats, they’re just not built well enough like saiyans and other powerful races
One of the sad parts of Gohan's downfall is that being downgraded to a side character in the middle of the Buu arc didn't have to be as bad as it turned out to be. They could have still used Gohan to stall Buu with Vegeta during the Kid Buu fight since dead people who keep their bodies can still fight on the World of the Kai's. In fact, they could have made use of Piccolo, Gohan and Gotenks during or out of the fight weather they were dead or not. Goku and Shen can teleport people here and there whenever and or wherever the story needed them to be, those who could stall Buu like Gotenks and Gohan (If we go with the argument that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, the manga has some weird statements about that which I'm gonna avoid going into) could stay while people like Piccolo and Supreme Kai could go to Earth to gather support for the Spirit Bomb. What I'm trying to say is that there were options available to make good use with the supporting cast without relegating them to essentially being cheerleaders. Maybe Piccolo would have been stuck since he's the weakest of the group (counting Goten and Trunks as Gotenks) Gohan did give energy to the spirit bomb, but I feel keeping him to help with Buu could really have been more help stalling Buu while giving Gohan some action after being embarrassed during the Ultimate Gohan fiasco. As a bonus we could avoid having Goku leaving his sons and Piccolo to die on earth while Vegeta returns without grabbing anyone. That was ultimately needless drama (for reasons I explained earlier) which in the anime (assuming the Manga covered it, and this drama wasn't filler) featured Goku agenizing over the mistake while Vegeta yelled at him only for the very next episode to treat it as if that scene never happened, it had some serious tonal whiplash.
gohan, goten and trunks being absent in the afterlife always felt off to me, enma is capable of sending dead people if a major threat was present, hell he doesnt even need them to have their bodies so why did they relegate them to spirit bomb battery once ressurected I dont know
They were absent for the simple fact that if they were present, kid buu would get the shit beaten out of him
Exactly, but it really starts to get annoying how often the reason why certain things happen is because “the plot demands it.” Toriyama makes a number of decisions in this story that, if the world were consistent, should not happen.
It's weird how they didn't have much input when it came to the Buu saga's finale. So much of the arc is focused around the boys' fusion training and Gohan's training with the kais and none of it really amounts to anything plot wise. Like you said, they didn't have to defeat Buu or anything, but at least being present during that final fight would make all the time spent with them feel worth it.
@@WikiThis the kids helping goku push the genkidama would have been so cool, kind of a reverse father son kamehameha except they would actually be there
Popular DB character: *_Gets Akira’d_*
Yamcha: First time~?
Apparently Yamcha was based off of someone Akira knew in real life that he hated. Hence him becoming a joke later on
@@PrinceoftheVioletFlame Really? That's so mean. 😆
It's a tragedy of the manga/anime industry that it's so destructive toward its artists. Some of the greatest manga and anime can wind up sabotaged by their own creators when they experience burnout or mental health strain. And it's disturbing how often this happens.
I'll say this again: Yes, I know Gohan doesn't like fighting. You know what else he doesn't like? His friends, loved ones, and even complete innocent strangers getting hurt or killed, especially when it's to protect him. That's what prompted him to attack Raditz. To attack Nappa a couple times. To save Dende from Dodoria. To stand up to Recoome. To fight Frieza. Etc. etc. And to eventually unlock Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. A Gohan going off of the Cell Games wouldn't just want to drop fighting altogether. Because he should know that he's the last line of defense for Earth if a villain shows up, and if he's not able to do that, everyone he knows and loves will be killed. "Wanting to be a scholar" is not an excuse for how Gohan's character has been since the Buu Saga.
For the life of me I do not understand how Toriyama couldn’t write a balance of Gohan. It’s really not that hard. Having him be the slice of life character AND a powerful warrior who may not enjoy fights to the death but will fuck shit up to protect his family, friends and planet seems like such an easy set up. It’s RIGHT THERE. It’s like Toriyama missed a wide open lay-up smh.
I agree and am glad to see someone else feel the same way.
I guess the super saiyan transformed fired any common sense he had
@@HouseHawk62plus buu really didn't need to be as strong as he did, toriyama could have made the buu arc stating everyone has gotten weaker including vegeta as he stopped training and then introduce a villain weaker than cell whos like moro that can sap power away from people.
And there you go, toriyama always complained how he was forced to escalate the potential stakes in the story being forced to make stronger enimes not realzing this would have been the best moment to introduce a weaker villain but a villain that can still stand a chance against the z fighters.
Future Gohan really is the only Gohan I feel like they got right. Future Gohan doesnt like to fight either, but knows when he has to and tries to do what he thinks Goku would do, but also with the human-like sense of justice that differs his motives to fight from Goku.
This is why future Gohan will forever be THE GOAT!!!!
Not really. Future gohan has his own problems. People only like him because he's badass ignoring the fact that version of gohan was tired of fighting and suffering with major PTSD, survivor's guilt, and stress from trying to keep the rest of humanity alive. That gohan constantly focused on fighting that even in Xenoverse 2, he compared himself to his present timeline and wanted what present gohan had. You people should stop self projecting into a war survivor. He has the same problems present gohan has. He's of extremes. It's not his fault, but that's a problem with his character. Just fighting and nothing else, and he couldn't even train to be as strong as goku because he was a crippling war veteran. He didn't balance his life. He just veered towards the opposite direction and got nothing out of it.
@@lapplandkun9273If Gohan didn’t protect the earth in the future timeline or at least salvaged what was left they would all be dead. That version of Gohan sacrificed his own happiness for the lives of the humans on earth. That version of Gohan understood every action has a consequence he knows the stakes are high unlike Buu saga Gohan who thought he could play with Buu. This Gohan fought because he wanted too and needed too. Main Timeline Gohan doesn’t embody neither of those traits.
@@lapplandkun9273this just seems funny to me. People like Future Gohan because of that.
Yes, I absolutely love Future Gohan! I would even say, that's the DVD I watched the most out of all the movies and specials!!! I liked his chivalry, his sense of duty, becoming a master for Trunks, the way he continued to thrive even though he got his arm chopped and had no real partner to train with, yet managed to surpass the power of an android. His death was very dramatic. A sacrifice worthy of a hero. Absolutely amazing character!!
This shows that you never liked/understand gohan character at all
I've always had something against Gohan, it was like a watching friend throw away every chance he had to be something great. It was as if the entire community was okay with just giving excuses and excuses for why Gohan isn't such an unfortunate letdown of a character, and that Gohan was truly him.
I realize now that it's not that Gohan was just written poorly, he was sabotaged. I always felt like the Buu Saga was a bit weird when it came to Gohan, and now I get it. Gohan was set-up to get jobbed over and over again once the Great Saiyaman Arc was a bust.
I think I feel a bit warmer towards Gohan now, knowing that there was some hope for the kid. It's too bad all that hope was just for the market, and not for the character.
They could have used that for his character arc though. Because what happened with Cell wasn't his control. He got stronger only because he got angry and his dad influencing him. Where as in the Buu arc Goku was dead. He got to live how he wanted to under his mother but still at heart wanted to fight mildly to practice with Goten and stop robbers in the city if he was near them. Then he gets cocky trying to show off to Kibito and Babidi that he was SS2 and the youngest Super Sayian before Goten. Then he gets his ass kicked by Debura and Vegeta is disappointed in him, having surpassed him significantly as a SS2. Gohan could have been flawed from that, because he never really got to control his potential or learned out to use it outside of just circumstance.
That could have been his character learning how to be like how his dad naturally is. What Gohan should have learned was how to fight as a human and a Saiyan. Goku should have just been the Saiyan and not a hero for justice, but Gohan literally *is* this. And its why he wanted to be the Great Saiyaman, and Videl a volunteer cop was shipped to him. They didnt ruin Gohan in terms of power. Thats easy to asspull. The ruined him as a character to grow off of who he is that differs from Goten and Goku (Goten and Gotenks also being characters wasted by status quo.)
I mean he's pretty well off though? The guy has a good job and is helping the world by being a researcher.
Things that are pretty admirable.
It's much like Mob from Mob Psycho 100; Has crazy potential, but they never try to live off their powers. In fact they prefer the more "mundane" life.
@@boxtupos7718 If he wasn't done so dirty in the Buu Saga and Resurrection F, that honestly would've a nice little place for Gohan.
Unfortunately, he was done dirty. He comes off as a man who never learns his lesson, and one who always pays for it in blood.
You would think someone so concerned with peace would give a little consideration to his strength, that which allows him to protect the peace he holds so dear. Instead, he falls by the wayside again and again, and needs someone else to remind him how to not be so shit.
He should've learned his lesson after Buu kicked his ass the first time, but then he falls in Resurrection F, and then makes the same mistake in Super Hero.
Joy. Another comment blaming great saiyaman for gohan's wasted growth
@@lapplandkun9273 Not blaming anybody, Great Saiyaman was great.
Loving Dragon Ball means accepting it really does kind of stop being good at some point.
I’d say it stopped being good after the tournament of power, say super sucks all you want but the tournament of power arc is a top tier arc i love the tournament of power i hope they do a second tournament of power with broly and shit
@@shmelzy82manga or anime top is completely different in both
@@HumanB312 i know it is what’s your point
Most of arcs are good. They just don't align with each other 😢@@shmelzy82
@@shmelzy82 Dragonball stopped being good after the cell saga. Tournament of Power is meh at best. Dragonball hasn’t been good since the 90s bro.
I say this again: Toriyama didn’t care about dragon ball since even the beginning of the Android Saga. People need to stop saying otherwise
All they had to do:
- Gohan didnt stop training in the 7 years. Or, at least, trained SOMEWHAT, and gets to be the one to kill Dabura in a rematch.
- He doesnt drop the Potara. A slice of Buu pops up and knocks it away.
- He's there for the final battle, but realizes he can't beat Buu bc only a Spirit Bomb can. He fends Buu off long enough for Goku to charge, so its not that Gohan was sidelined or made to look stupid, but more that Goku's personal gift that he earned through his strength of character, is the only TYPE of attack that can end Buu.
3 simple, easy retcons that would've fixed the entire Buu Saga imo, and made it arguably the best instead of "hey, its the worst Saga, but it had a ton of cool forms, and Vegeta gets character growth at the expense of everyone else". Bc the problem with the Saga is that everyone except Vegeta ended their character on a perfect endpoint, not just for the Cell Saga, but everything before it, and TBH, even Vegeta didnt NEED his Majin arc, though it was very well-executed. But this way, Goku has still passed the torch without weakening Gohan's character arc, and without removing the need for Goku to stick around.
I would have preferred what you suggested than what we got
Honestly Toriyama *might* have gotten away with the whole slice of life stuff during the buu arc if he just had some build up towards it same way og db had build-up to becoming a fighting manga
You even forgot to elaborate that the moment Buu absorbs Gohan, who is supposed to be the strongest single individual character in the series at that point, he doesn't even go five seconds without getting his ass beat.
I think they sloppily handled Gohan's role in a different aspect. Gohan should have been promoted to take the mantle but not solely because of his plot-power scaling. They should have developed him as a characterization differently. Its what Future Gohan got right, and what ROF and Super Gohan just don't do.
Future Gohan seems like the only version of the character that feels right. That they got right. Not because of power, but from personality. The traits we like from him. Not being a clone of his dad but inspired by him. Which I think is a wasted aspect of him. Because Toriyama wanted to reemphasize that to him Goku isnt meant to be a righteous hero, because he's supposed to be just a simple guy who likes to fight as a Saiyan. But Gohan is not a Saiyan. He is part human and as a human side, he more so than Goku should be the character that wants to fight for justice, to defend others, because he is raised by an earth mother and his character already shown it with why he became the great Saiyaman. If anything Gohan should have been the character to be that righteous hero character because of his human side, but Saiyan power. Its just such an odd missed opportunity and miss-use of character. Because unlike Goku, Gohan in canon actually has these traits Toriyama didnt want for Goku. Gohan should have been the one more like Superman with the morals of an Earththing but the power of an alien.
To add to that his still half sayian and like them they like to fight. Idk if people forgot but Gohan has half the traits of a human and sayian alike.
This is how all of this could have been resolved. Summon Shenlong and make him give Tien the potential & KI of Gohan.
There, done. Nothing more needs to be said or thought over. Tien has always been the best fighter in terms of techniques.
Now the guy who wants to study can do so without any feelings of guilt and Tien will forever leave Goku & Vegeta in the dust where they belong.
And without the Gohanplot:
Tien only became unimportant because Toriyama never gave Tien & Yamcha the Kaioken and later maybe even the fusion-dance. Maybe even throw Cyborgfication in at the hands of Bulma and Dabra & Babidi are simply dead when they show up. The Kikoho can solve most problems *but theeeeeen* we wouldn't have all the cool fights 😏 and sooooo~! 🤗
This video made me think about some things I didn't noted before. You certainly did a huge search job to do this video, trying to understand how Toriyama was thinking and how he wrote Gohan the way he did. Nice job!
It is genuinely insane how good your pacing, editing and overall presentation is in these videos. As far as anitubers go, you're the best and it's not even close
That by itself is great, but it's the fact that your arguments are interesting, well-reasoned and justified. You make good points and back them up with solid arguments. I don't always agree with your points, but it's still interesting to listen to you talk.
For example, I do legitimately think Super Hero Gohan is good, but it has very little to do with the writing, but characterization. Gohan has always been fairly mild, and there was very little to him other than "duty" as you put it or Toriyama's forced attempts at pacifism. Super Hero reframing the character into this nerdy, even slightly ditzy scientist/father imbued him with a sense of comedy that matched even Goku, and it better sold the contrast between his current self and transformed self. Now I won't make the argument that Beast Gohan is particularly amazing as a concept, but it does play up that contrast and viciousness with his nerdy and soft aesthetic
But yeah other than that, that was a great video. Really nice to go down memory lane
Hey, thanks for the comment I really do appreciate it! I wouldn't call myself the best but I sure as hell try my best.
As for SuperHero Gohan, he does have his charm sure (his design is way better than his RoF design that's for sure) but I don't want to give spoilers for part 2 of the video, so we'll have to continue this discussion next time. 🤔
@@CAGExplains looking forward to it 😁
@CAGExplains he's right your easily the best crazy consistency bro keep it up
I’d say it’s because when he was a kid, he tried to be like his father, being down to fight but unlike Goku, Gohan doesn’t see fighting as fun or for sport, it’s to be a protector (hence his whole superhero persona) when it came to cell I think Gohan was just tired of it all, the constant deathmatches, not to mention as something he brings up almost before every fight is that his dad could handle it, which ties into future Gohan, Goku is dead, Gohan had to step up, but his downfall came from the fact that, future Gohan isn’t Gohan, he was trying to imitate Goku and that’s what lead to his death. So when he fought cell he didn’t think he HAD to be the savior in that moment, but when Goku said he couldn’t do it anymore, that’s when Gohan knew for real HE HAD TO BE THE SAVIOR, and he didn’t want that burden, he didn’t want to be his father, he’s not his father, he wanted to fight side by side with his father, not be that one to save him or be above his own father, cause it conflicts with what he truly is, an earth boy trying to be a scholar and learn.
I wonder if there's a timeline where Dragon Ball became a generational manga where the torch gets passed on and on through generations, where Gohan didn't get done so dirty like this.
So like jojo
An alternate universe where Araki wrote Dragonball and Toriyama wrote JoJo
@@PKM9107 GoGo's Bizarre Adventure
Red Stone of Aja Z
Yeah. The pacifism thing does come out of nowhere. He was much more a, “I fight for a reason” type.
The first half of Dragon Ball Z was clearly setting up Gohan as the new hero, but then they just chickened out and Gohan hasn't been the same since. If anything, Beast Gohan feels like an apology 30 years too late.
Are you forgetting the start of the Buu/Saiyaman Saga? Toriyama tried it with Gohan as the MC, but it didn’t work. Some characters are destined to be on the sidelines
My issue with Gohan as a character is the sheer negligence of his most defining trait as a warrior: regardless of his feelings towards fighting in general, one thing that has ALWAYS been prevalent is his inability to sit by while an injustice occurs. No matter how much of a "pacifist" he claims to be, once someone or something threatens his friends, family, or the status quo, Gohan will be THE FIRST out for blood. Since Raditz kidnapped him, and he took all that psychological torture himself and twiddled his thumbs, he immediately crashed out with unprecedented power to save his father. Then on Namek when he saved Dende, he couldnt sit by like Krillin and wait, he HAD TO act.
Long story short, he's always ironically had a *SUPERHERO* complex, which should be enough motivation to stay active and ready to protect the status quo. His inability to grasp that concept completely butchers all of his experiences, let alone the power that he randomly obtains to close the gap.
Interesting video. If I was asked about the assassination of Gohan I would have said Buu Saga. Being able to move super fast and missing the earring, losing in a stupid way . . . IT always felt like that was the moment or week when Toriyama decided Gohan wasn't going to be a new MC.
I always really enjoyed Gohan's adventures as the Great Saiyaman. It showed his passion for justice, while also his love of peace. It was much more consistent with the Gohan we knew all along, finally free from having to sacrifice his life and with a chance to have some fun being the hero. Shame it only lasted a couple of chapters and a handful of filler episodes.
I always wanted more Gohan-in-school shenanigans.
Videl was such a great and fun character, too! I loved their dynamic the most.
I'm sad that those parts of the story were cut short to favor Goku all over again.
If you want to read a gag manga go read OG dragon Ball or read one of his other mangas he made. The series is known for its action not its funny gag shit. This is a fact. Toriyama should have just handed the series off to somebody else or started a different manga entirely his handling of the Dragon Ball series is awful. How some people back him up on the whole gag thing is weird considering half the fans only started watching Dragon Ball for Dragon Ball Z. Kinda hypocritical in a way but whatever.
@@Coolguy17761 this is so true man
@@Coolguy17761 I mean in all fairness, even most of the Z arcs in Toriyama's manga have a bunch of comedy gag moments /elements, despite being less "gag manga." Is your argument that any of the shenanigans surrounding Gohan's high school life is or would have been too gag like to fit the image/characteristics of what DragonBall was at the time?
@@shmelzy82 What you say about Broly is actually a misinformation and it is debunked by a RUclips channel.
@@Coolguy17761 DB has always been gag oriented. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Been waiting for this one! Great work as always man!
Edit: Bro this is probably the best video I've seen from you. Not only is it informative, but it's HILARIOUS. 😂 Toriyama did Gohan SO dirty in the Buu Saga it's crazy!
We need a PART 2 Immediately!
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Hello there!
@xana7617Gohan in the Cell saga wasn’t out of character. We see all throughout the series up until that point that he doesn’t like fighting, he doesn’t want to if he doesn’t have to. His fight with Cell was an opportunity to make his voice known, hopefully convincing Cell to give up or flee, not to mention his lack of self-confidence at the time. Videos from this guy are always subpar when it comes to these things.
@xana7617 I did watch the video and I have read the manga, quite a few times. It doesn’t come out of nowhere though.
All the times he’s been scared, failed at doing something, or ran away in a fight isn’t enough of a reason to assume he might not like fighting? And it’s only a problem after he just says it out loud after fighting Cell for a little bit? Characters don’t have to say everything, context clues exist.
@xana7617You're looking at too surface level. Gohan never had to deal with an antagonist like cell,Plus Cell and goku are basically working together to get the best out of gohan(but mentally it's at his worst)to prove the other side wrong or take the other down. He never had to deal with a being that actually gave humanity 10 days to prepare to get stronger... Gohan was kind forced into this situation,Goku is living through Gohan at that point while cell is an enabler so he is trying to enable gohan.
The Kid basically sees himself just much of a threat after he learns more about himself than a guy that will give someone a chance to improve and have an agreement with ...We forget didn't even kill Trunks when Trunks told him to finish him.Gohan is scared of himself at that point because he knows his mind will be warped once someone takes him over the edge and only to overpowered cell to reach to the next level and once he ascended to that level he only tortured cell...stole cell traits and robbed cell of his beliefs and didn't kill him right away once goku told him to kill cell...Gohan got caught in the theme of selfishness.
@xana7617 What? None of that is true. He doesn’t love to fight in the Buu saga, he just does it because he likes helping people, not because he likes fighting criminals. He knows he can use his superhuman power for good and decides to do so. And again, with the stuff about the Namek arc, there’s countless context clues going all the way back to the saiyan saga that Gohan is not a fighter.
Gohan definitely would've fit better as a 'superhero' archetype, like a Superman figure. Superman doesn’t relish fights either, and likes to live along humanity, but he has great power and have no problem using it to fight his enemies and save people.
Toriyama projected himself into Goku from the beginning and Gohan represented his real life son who was born around the same time Gohan was created. At some point he decided he didn't want him to be the protagonist of the story. I've a feeling something in real life caused that tbh. But we don't know much about his real life to draw from. Something tells me it wasn't good though.
Maybe Toriyama wanted his son to be something big and achieve, burdening his son too much but his son just… was happy and satisfied as is. I don’t actually know, just speculating
Maybe Toriyama wanted his son to be something big and achieve, burdening his son too much but his son just… was happy and satisfied as is. I don’t actually know, just speculating
Maybe Toriyama wanted his son to be something big and achieve, burdening his son too much but his son just… was happy and satisfied as is. I don’t actually know, just speculating
Maybe Toriyama wanted his son to be something big and achieve, burdening his son too much but his son just… was happy and satisfied as is. I don’t actually know, just speculating
@@basimali619 It's all tasteless speculation on my part too really, maybe you're right. All I know is his reasoning that Gohan 'wasn't working' has never made much sense, as he's topped polls in the west for years, and he had to purposefully downgrade Gohan in the story to kill his momentum. Which always felt like sabotage. Nothing that happened to Gohan felt natural. Bringing back Goku with a Halo never felt natural. But it's all in the past now.
I don't know why but goku in the opening chapters of the buu saga felt like a cameo rather than return of an old icon😂
I still have hope in a Gohan real return. I would watch Gohan paying taxes or studying like a lo-fi video for 10 hours. Please give me back my boy.
Tf you mean? He is the strongest character on earth easily and according to statements made is even stronger than goku and vegeta rn
Honestly I don't think Toriyama was ever "done with" Gohan, because Tori never was "with" Gohan in the first place. Gohan's role from the very beginning was to act as a plot device to stall until Goku showed up to beat the villain. Gohan's hidden power was used to knock the villain around a bit to buy time until Goku could arrive, and then his role was over. It wasn't until the Cell Games that Gohan did much of anything, and that might have been the most "with" Toriyama ever was with Gohan. Then the Buu Saga has Gohan slipping back into the exact same role he did before the Cell Games, being used to stall the villain until Goku could beat them, which is exactly what happens.
Depens on what you mean, Gohan was a prominent main cast member but one that was clearly never planned to take over the main character role, his character arc ended after he revived Piccolo, so Toriyama took the natural progression of this kind of character and he slowly faded into the background for the majority of the Cell.
That is until Toriyama randomly decided to make the men character after 90% of the arc was over mind you, then quickly regretted this rash decision because of course doing the first thing that comes to mind has consequences.
Even worse because his plot macguffin made him the most powerful non-fused character and he did nothing with it but beat Buu around until he tricked Gohan and Gotenks got absorbed.
What's wildest about it is that Toriyama had a clear model for Talented But Reluctant Fighter Who Protects: Bruce Lee. All of Bruce Lee's characters were like that. Come on, Toriyama, it was a layup. 🤦🏿♂️
I honestly believe Toriyama’s original vision was to graduate out of Shonen and bring the once young now teenage audience to regular adult anime…but his editors was like nah
26:38 Small Correction, but Gohan *did* use SSJ2 again against Dabura
He kinda had to. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to keep up with the guy since Dabura was a Super Perfect Cell-level threat.
It makes no sense for a Gohan that got *weaker* since the Cell Games to go on *even ground* against a Super Perfect Cell-level threat as base Super Saiyan. If Gohan got *stronger* during the 7-year timeskip, this wouldn’t be an issue. But since he didn't, then he'd need SSJ2 to go even with Dabura.
Plus, Lightning doesn't stay in the character forever, just in Power bursts for the most part. Laughing Stock Media made a great video about this topic, i highly recommend it
Edit: That Smile Bomb AMV of Gohan, though. Can we have a full version of that? That song fits Gohan really well, which is surprisingly
Not weaker, but rusty to the point of going SSJ2 isn't as strong as it used to be. So in a sense, his fight against Dabura was him in a weaker state of SSJ2, hence why he struggled.
It’s kinda weird. Guides like Daizenshuu 2 and El Manga Legendario, manga exclusive guides, pretty much directly say he was a SSJ but Daizenshuu 7 the manga and anime guide explicitly says he was a SSJ2. Daizenshuu 2 also said he couldn’t power up from rage which means that he could use SSJ2 in the tournament without it. I don’t believe Videl getting beat up would make him more angry than the murdered people he saw or the threat of everyone dying.
Visually, it makes more sense that he was a SSJ (except for his SSJ2 like hair) but logically, it makes more sense to be a SSJ2. If SSJ was equal with Dabura, SSJ2 would’ve be twice as strong and tanked him (according to D7 saying you need to have 2x the ki of an attack to tank it). Gohan’s goal should have been not to take damage so Buu wouldn’t get resurrected and finish Dabura so Buu wouldn’t get resurrected.
I don’t think Gohan was still tired since it’s been some time since he was healed. Either D7 is either making a retcon or actually just making the truth less ambiguous. Z Movie 10 Gohan doesn’t have sparks either but is stated to be a SSJ2. SSJ2s don’t always have sparks either but normally when they’re powered up fully. Goku even stayed as a SSJ while flashing SSJ2 like power that even Vegeta caught on to.
So it’s very weird how ambiguous this all really is and how it could make sense either way but most logically he should’ve been a SSJ2.
@@ChaosGodEnerjak I like to view it as SSJ2, but not at the peak of the power Gohan can wield, because of his rustiness in terms of martial arts practice/keeping himself in form.
@@Xfactor3521 Makes enough sense to me.
@@ChaosGodEnerjak There's no real evidence for it in the manga. I suppose the guidebooks can make statements as to what happened at that point in time, but they're not telling the story and are not substitutes for the medium telling the story.
Always thought the pacifist thing was weird especially since he did that whole monologue about being stronger and not letting his friends down in the hyperbolic time chamber
If anything I would have thought Gohan would grown into his Future Gohan’s counterpart. He would becoming the protector of Earth after Goku made his noble sacrifice against cell. I think Goku should have remain dead. After the lesson he learned from Cell, Goku’s Death and Trunks Death he would train to become the strongest so he can protect his friends and family from the evils of the world. I always thought while Gohan had his own hobbies with the power he had compared to everyone else he should put it to good use, instead of wasting all the time studying. Gohan should have trained consistently. Not saying give up your dream, but if your weak and your loved ones are under attack and your weak you won’t have a future for yourself or them. To me Gohan should love fighting but for the same reasons Goku loves fighting. Gohan should be a kind-heart person, but when things get serious he should be cold-hearted.
@@ebenezeronile Strangely, I don't think Goku should have remained dead. Goku as a character always liked the tournaments and gentlemanly battles and not the absolute death-matches like those he had to fight in order to stop Vegeta & Frieza. We gotta bear in mind how excited he was to fight Piccolo Jr, in his arc during the tournament and how unhappy and seriously he took the Saiyan battle in the following arc.
Arguably, there's more evidence of Goku being a pacifist than Gohan, with Goku even telling Krillin he only fights so that he could enjoy quiet and peaceful days with Chi-Chi and Gohan.
I think that in mind, Goku should have been revived but should have been retired coming out only to back the team up. Sure he might train, but he should have been given the Piccolo treatment, with Gohan stepping into the fore and being turned into the lead. Gohan definitely should have aged up into being like Mirai Gohan rather than the outright clown he was in the Buu saga.
@@ebenezeronile I don't like the idea of Gohan liking fighting.
To Gohan fighting is means to end.
He is Martial Pacifist, Scholar, a defender, a fighter.
i think Toriyama wanted to use Gohan to make Dragon Ball a slice of life comedy but studio and fan backlash lead to what we got because Toriyama was butt hurt people did not like what he was doing he took Gohan and destroyed him just to shove it in the faces of the studio and fans because a lot of us wanted to see the torch get passed on to Gohan so Toriyama made sure it never could by making Gohan a joke character
You typed this high right
@chromephone ever since i was 12 their has not been a day i was not high
Tbh; I just saw it as Gohan being “a kid” and Toriyama injecting some random realism into the character since IRL nobody who’s sane would like to kill someone, and Gohan knew clearly that the confrontation against Cell would lead to death.
So again, IMO Toriyama just wanted a “human” in the story and gave Gohan the same values as any basic student.
My dude...are you using Urabai Baba to read my mind???? Easily your best video so far and the one I agree with the most (Beast Gohan aside, again, lol), and I already entirely agree with most of your videos. Standing ovation, my guy. Standing ovation.
Bro this might be the greatest video essay on Gohan, not repeating the same tired arguments at all, I’ve seen one dude say something similar but not as enjoyable to watch as u. Subscribed.
Nice video brother, I love how Toriyama light heartedly wrote the Buu saga, man was like "F everyone, Imma do this my way". Just goes to show that we shouldn't take Dragon Ball all to seriously.
And then he had to come back later because of the Embarrassment failure of DBE.
@@SpeedPunch Evolution was an abomination to everything Dragon Ball.
With all the goofy stuff in dragon ball, I’m surprised people still take it so serious. A planet is named cereal and a group of space pirates are all named after dairy products lol
@@Andretti2Tone Right? It's so funny to me how people try to act like Dragon Ball is this super serious show when yes there are serious scene and moments, but at its core Dragon Ball is a gag and that's perfectly fine.
@@Sugar_SpiceDB7ZS you still have to take some jokes serious inorder for them to be funny. like as gag manga DB is Buu Saga wasn't really funny either.
It really is a shame that one of the most iconic moments of the series is just a complete backpedaling of Gohan's character arc, suddenly making him go from someone that fights for his friends to being someone that needs to be spurred on by the death of someone he didn't even know up to that point. You can just feel how unsatisfied Gohan's current characterization is as he struggles to change directions and figure out where to even go from now.
As someone whose dabbled in writing fiction, myself, I 100% know that feeling of when you can just tell that things aren't really clicking and you don't know how to really fix things.
How does toriyama ruin the father and the son??😂😂
Never let bro cook again. 😂😂😂
@@CuteRedPanda64you'll still watch super season 2
@@10jonapiKeep it, I really don't care for the story of DB or its underdeveloped power system.
Just needs to ruin the Holy Spirit next 😂
@@CuteRedPanda64he won’t be cooking anymore sadly
Really wish we got more Gotenks being taken "seriously" instead of being written off as a complete unimportant gag.
Dragon Ball needs a bit of humor and fun, it is at it's worst when it takes itself too seriously. The last 2 arcs of the DBS make me feel it the most.
A 40 minute CAGE video is just the christmas gift I wanted.
Thank you, Mr.Explains. You're the narrative hero we needed.
This is a Hot Take and Goku Dragon Balls Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu is the peak ending to the Arc but lets be real, Gohan as Great Saiyaman, Videl and the Saiyan Kids versus Babidi Forces with Super G.Saiyaman vs Buu would’ve been amazing
This is gonna be a hot take as well but I lowkey enjoyed the great saiyaman, the more lighthearted and comedic tone was great and it seemed more toriyama like than anything else.
@jesser5138 because it was but fans hated it so he switched it to generic "Gohan Potential/Goku Vegeta saves day"
It explains why Toriyama has no idea what to do with Gohan now as I'm sure he really wanted Gohan to be a hero but fans clowned it so hard (hell most do still) he just went to back to Cell Saga all over again and now we got the worst Gohan ever in Super Hero and fans ate it the fuck up. It's depressing tbh as Gohan was my favorite character.
This is probably your best video yet! I love the way you used specific panels and scenes from the manga/anime along with the quotes from the interview with Toriyama. It comes together to form a strong argument that feels academic in research but delivered in a way that makes for great casual viewing! Also, I have a massive Gohan bias so that also helps.
Also, do you have a link to that interview with toriyama? I'd love to read the full thing, it looks really interesting.
He can’t keep getting away with this 😭
The false promise of Gohan growing up and surpassing Goku was bypassed by greed for money by Toriyama and the studios and publishing companies
Literally, gohan who fights to protect and enjoy a little battle would have been COMPLETELY fine. Because it sets up to where gohan can enjoy his life, have some fun and a little bit of gags and actually live normally but when put into a dire situation he knows when to stop playing around and fight for justice. It wouldn't set him up to be weak as he knows hes the few last lines of defense, he knows he can't slack off, he knows when to be serious, and yet still is able to have fun in school, become the great saiyaman and enjoy his life. Basically what im saying is, if only gohan kept up with his training as well as pulling the trigger sooner, it would give us the perfect set up for gohan to be protector and fight aswell as focusing on the time where he's not so that toriyama has room to enjoy the gags. But when its not gags, its serious.
He don't like to fight so accept so no.
In the cell games I think you are overlooking a couple things regarding Gohan’s character. In all of Gohan’s previous fights he was fighting in a group setting, he wasn’t given the responsibility to save everyone like he was during the Cell Games. Gohan always had a crutch of relying on his father, now that he doesn’t, this is completely new territory. Also, Gohan’s pacifist nature while maybe not outwardly foreshadowing, I wouldn’t go as far to say it’s out of character for him. In all of his previous fights, it was kill or be killed, he never lived to fight the main antagonists unless he absolutely had to. At the end of the day Gohan isn’t the same type of warrior that Goku is.
Exactly! When Cohan begs Cell to stop the Cell jr's attack, he knows he will be stopped by Cell if he intervenes. And since he can't beat Cell and most of the Z fighters won't last long. In that fight Cohan feels his being put on the spot by Goku, by Cell, by everyone.
it's the first time the fate of the planet hinges on him and him alone. Having to fight his fears and consciously tap into that anger within.
yeah, this just feels like the same old arguments that goku passed torch to gohan so gohan must step in his shoes. I honestly think people see gohan as a prop more than character. They self insert gohan ignoring what he wants
While I'm sympathetic to the character aspect of Gohan not enjoying fighting like his dad or even most of the other combatant protags, I don't think the pacifist example in the Cell Arc is comparable to any of the other examples that proceeded it. Despite any reluctance he may have had in earlier conflicts, Gohan was (usually) ultimately willing to join in and fight where he felt necessary. In the Cell fight, he was entirely reluctant once he actually started and then wasn't after he actually got angry and transformed. Personally, I would say Toriyama did that to illustrate a strong and dramatic contrast in Gohan's demeanor before and after transforming. To be clear, Gohan seemed to indicate that what he was really concerned about when fighting Cell was losing himself to his rage and killing Cell because of it, but the problem is that he's never indicated he's had that problem before (at least not the killing, or specifically killing in rage parts).
In the recome fight both vegeta and krillin were completely unable to help and couldn’t fight yet gohan went flying in to fight recome without even caring abt this whole pacifist bs
@@aka-fusion8909 again. Cohan is not a pacifist. I don't know where people are pulling that from, he fights only when necessary or when he is angry. People are making this too complex.
While gohan didn't like fighting like goke, he didn't hate it either, so him suddenly hating to fight was just a plot pull for cell fight and to kill goku, the kid attacked freza in namake when freza was the more terrifying villain in his time, this pacifist crap that the fan base came with didnt sit well with me.
I agree with you Gohan is one of the saddest stories of a character being dumped on by his writer. I think Gohan's pacifist moment stems from 2 things 1. His heightened emotions during a big event and his desperation to make all the conflict stop and 2. Android 16 remember 16 and Gohan start to become friends before the Cell games so I think 16's pacifism and nature loving attitude rubbed off on Gohan which could have worked out but ONLY if Gohan had become more like future Gohan in the Buu arc. After Android 16's and Goku's sacrifices Gohan should of been full of guilt neither of them needed to die if Gohan had been strong enough this should of spurred Gohan into becoming a more serious but still somewhat goofy, nature loving, justice serving hero and yes he should have been the protagonist moving forward that would have given Dragonball SO MUCH potential moving into Super but instead now Super is just mostly a retconning, nostalgia dependent, mess of a continuation but if Gohan had become the main character it could of done a lot more. I also agree that his and Videl's relationship isn't really given the time that's needed yeah we get some scenes of her and Saiyaman plus the scenes of Gohan training her to fly and him giving her a Senzu bean after her beating from Spopovich but it would of been nice to get a few more tender moments between them just so the romance doesn't feel forced and so Gohan has another reason to take this fight seriously and not mess up like he did when he was a teen. Gohan is also just a better hero than Goku maybe not a better protagonist but Gohan is a better hero as you said Goku cares more for the thrill of combat rather than justice but with Gohan that is flipped making Gohan the better hero and I really think the show would have been better off with Goku (and Vegeta) staying dead while Gohan takes up the mantle of protagonist.
that cell crotch shot killed me.
Gohan wasn't a pacifist he was just traumatized from his childhood and didn't see fighting as the main focue of his life. The fact he gets mischaractarized as a pacifist is cancer
So he would rather all of his friends and family die then fight cell?
@@JRLSpiderman Clearly not, considering he *did* go up to fight Cell.
@@JRLSpiderman ?? A he literally went up and fought cell not once but twice? B if you could read you'd see I said he isn't a pacifist. I said he is traumatized from his childhood, so he gets into ruts where he doesn't like to fight because he tends to get someone he loves about killed when he does or doesn't (piccolo and the Z fighters then Krillin then Goku and Future Trunks then his mom videl and everyone but his dad and Dende, he pulls up and gets himself killed against Buu).
@@Turkolini talking about super
@@Turkolini doesn’t matter. Responsibility is far more important than his crappy opinion. Future Gohan would happily fight to help his friends
I’ll say this again, Akira Toriyama never liked DBZ. He ALWAYS resorted to a more chilled out OG Dragon ball storyline because he loves writing comedy.
he did like dbz he just likes comedy anime more, and dbz has plenty of comedy just look at the buu saga.
Bro be quiet you never knew him. You don’t know what he liked
@@0vern9K fr he literally said on numerous occasions that he liked his creations what is this dude talking about.
i think they could have had two protagonists
to me the power scaling in DB got completely f**** in the frieza fight, frieza was so strong that transforming for the first time created a planetary level hurricane, getting to his final form evaporated the water of half the planet and messed up the gravity, and the fight between SSJ goku and frieza was destroying the weather, shifting the land itself and creating volcanoes...
cell absorbing 18...caused an earthquake...and some wind i guess...
3:41 “when he shattered Raditz’s space pod, armor, and rib cage” funny sh*t ever to me and I don’t know why.
I wish people would've thought about this back when it was happening to Yamcha. As bad as Gohan's has been, nobody got character assassinated worse than Yamcha.
Nobody cares about Yamcha
@@youtubeistryingtocensorme RUclips ain't trying to censor you dude. You just don't have anything to say that's worth hearing.
You've managed to convince me, I always thought it made sense that Gohan became a scholar, but yeah, I can now see that it was an intentional change in the character's personality, but I've long accepted current Gohan's personality, and I loved the Great Saiyaman and Gohan school life, so I'm biased.
Thank you, what you are explaining here of the first time that Toriyama does this too Gohan, it's what i notice after re-reading the manga a few times and seeing the analysis videos done by MistereFusion, if you have the chance and you have not watch those videos, watch them they are amazing.
But Toriyama has moment where he doesn't know how to write the characters to do what he wants them to do without going out of character... Which there are way he just couldn't come up with them because he writes by the set of this pants. He does the turn the characters into puppets and put them audio boxes that makes the characters move to his will instead of their will. Like Goku not going to Gero telling him "I know you are planning something in 3 years, don't do it, we will be watching you". Losing him through technobabble and then you have a reason for everything going to the bad in the Cell Arc...
34:40 yu yu opening slaps😤🔥
You know what, I’m going to learn Toriyama’s art style and create an alternate story for my entertainment. Making Gohan the protagonist and fixing Toriyama’s mistake. It most likely won’t be public because the characters can get me sued for copyright reasons, so I’m sorry about that. But at least I can enjoy it myself.😅 But in all seriousness, if I want others to read it, without getting copyrighted, I can just walk around in a place full of Dragon Ball fans and give them a book.😊
Clicked faster than Instant Transmission
Bro's got Time Skip! 🔥💀
The back and forth in super with his character is weird too. Like he resolves to train after freeza kills piccolo. Then apparently that never happened because, come the ToP he needs to actually do it this time. I thought that must be because of anime and manga differences and it was filler but then he trains in both versions for the ToP and he's still suddenly weak again in super hero. It's like Gohan's only writing techniques is "He stopped training so he can get a sudden power up"
Yea, that same character arc keeps being recycled for Gohan. It's like a particularly bad kind of flanderization of Gohan's character.
Bulma keeps making these junk wishes and Gohan still has bad eyesight. Bro, a wish or surgery could fix it.
@@dansmith1661 I don’t even know why he has bad eyesight. Chi Chi doesn’t need glasses and Goku’s a Saiyan. The best guess is he got it from Ox-King (only person in the son family that wears glasses other than Gohan iirc) but really? Are we REALLY supposed to believe that Gohan is so unlucky he inherited his grandfather’s eyesight? Over his mother’s perfectly fine sight and his father’s incredible eyesight? Yeah nah. I’m not buying it. The genes don’t match up. Toriyama really hoe’d Gohan out with that one.
The montage of ultimate gohan with the yu yu hakisho theme song was just beautiful my 2 top favorite anime fusing just beautiful 😫😩😫😩😫😩
I wonder if the fan backlash against Gohan taking over as the protagonist after the Cell saga led to Toriyama pretty much going "fuck it, Goku wins via ass pull every time now"
Nah, whatever the opinion of western fans was in Japan the polls all pointed to Gohan's popularity even surpassing Goku
Trying to make the manga into a slice of life was not going to work out in the long run of course, because like the video showed people were still waiting for a big fight in the end, but the problem itself never was Gohan
@ale-xsantos1078 and even in Dragonball, the manga wasn't THAT popular until it began to do less comedy and more fighting. So slice of life not being as popular goes way back. For all its problems Super probably did that best.
@@ale-xsantos1078 To be fair though, the Buu Saga (and even GT) were over way before the west got to see it. It woulda been too late for the western fans to have a say.
@specialnewb9821 @@marksunboxingzone
Indeed
Goku hasn't won that many fights in Super, though.
You perfectly sum up all of my heartbreak in one video. Gohan, the character that should have been.
I think its time to face the fact that Toriyama is not a perfect writer, nor should he have expected to be. But his handling of Gohan was misled, and it led to the most humiliating "closure" ive ever seen for a character. I think Toriyama started wanting to draw the wrong manga somewhere down the line, cause the tone of the Buu saga doesnt really line up with the series up to that point. He should have balanced the lightheartedness with the serious moments better when writing it.
I think there are many reasons why Gohan as a kid in saiyan and freezer saga was willing to fight; among them because he is a more impressionable kid, because there was no other way, it was to save the earth (saiyan saga) or social pressure (ginyu force fight).
Against Cell at least Gohan in SSJ 1 was stronger, therefore he felt in a position of superiority and it was feasible to attempt a dialogue, there was nothing at stake (until Cells Jrs. There was a hesitation, that A.16 pushed/influenced to make the decision). So, out of character it wasn't that out.
Then looking outside the manga to see what Toriyama was cooking, I liked it just so much. It was a good video bro. Happy new year
Always got the idea gohan fought because he NEEDED to protect his world and not because he wanted to, meaning he wanted a job but he knew he had to fight when needed. For some reason he constantly forgets he has a family to protect. He’d be a more interesting character if his studies was the priority but he stepped up when needed, he doesn’t even have to be in every fight but to act like fighting ain’t a necessity it crazy.
24:52 this could've been a good spin-off. honestly, I feel the fans had a role to play in thia character assassination. a sepaseries focusing on Gohan's exploits could've been better than what actually came up.
Definitely did my boy gohan dirty lol, but, to be fair, i’ve always found the buu saga to be rushed and it just felt like a bingo card of transformations and fusions, it just doesn’t excite me as much as everything before it. What i loved about the cell saga was the talk from our saiyans about ascending SSJ to a perfected form, and that’s what i’ve always found SSJ2 to be, and the long build upto that, with vegeta and trunks gaining a level beyond, but only perfected when gohan achieved it, was just really well done. From that point i’d have just preferred characters gaining new abilities and moves, or buffing their attacks in general, instead of just having various transformations and power ups constantly lol. I do think the end of cell saga would have been the perfect ending, but i still enjoy some things in the buu saga so i still watch it all the way through, i would have just liked a more solid story for the end. You said it spot on, about cell being a perfect ending villain, as he contains the dna of all the villains before. It was a cool touch. On a side note: I literally thought the same think about the Z sword too 😂
The real issue is that Gohan has absolutely no development ever since cell.
People like to bring up the fact that Gohan isn’t a fighter but forget that threats in db verse are still constantly happening in which it involves at some point gohan getting involved.
The proper character development for him going forward is actually him learning how to balance personal and fighting life so he can achieve both and still maintain himself to be a top warrior, he literally has been going off the slack routine 3 times now in which it could have cost him dearly.
But here’s another problem, if gohan does this, due to his potential being allowed to help him rival goku and vegeta or surpass them, he’s pretty much the main character for power in which it will eliminate even more stakes.
The only real solution for gohan, if we are being honest, is to write him out, I feel with his potential being a massive thing for his character and his powerscaling for the future, it would bring a multitude of problems
I don't agree that learning to balance fighting and his personal life is necessarily the proper character development for Gohan. I don't think Gohan himself even had to take on any kind of fighting role after Cell, and the story didn't necessarily have to be written that way.
Don't give Toriyama ideas, buddy.
Hearing someone else naming Mr Satan Hercule is so cathartic. High five.
41 minute video from CAGE, we're eating good today
Yessir! Editing this video almost killed me so you guys better enjoy it 🔥😂
From someone who loves the OG Dragonball but hates the over reliance of adult Goku later on in Z and Super, this was a very cathartic watch. Could’ve been the best Shonen of all time imo but was so mishandled
@5:36
This guy’s spittin. A lot of the Cell and Buu arc writes characters specifically to get a result in the story, vs what would more naturally/logically happen as established by the story. I like DB, but the writing isn’t as tight for me to claim this and that as “PEAK ANIME”.
I love how any analysis of dragon ball that is even 0.001% deeper than surface level can always be boiled down to "bad writing" while the fans spend thousands of hours trying to come up with excuses for that instead of taking an L. The series might be hype but toriyama is such a terrible writer.
Gohan always had someone there to aid him in battles that he had no choice but to face and it was always out of preotecting his frends, but when your 11 years old and suddenly put on the spot of a big responsibility such as killing an entire villian that you expected your dad to take care of, of course he was going to get cold feet. Piccolo said that Gohan mostly drew out his truw fighting insticts when he was pushed to the brink
I will never forgive them for "Green Track Suit Gohan"
I’ll never forgive Toriyama for ruining Gohan. Peak Gohan is up there as my favorite character next to peak future Trunks. As much as I loved DBZ as a kid, thinking back on it, I think it was this shift in Gohan’s character that killed my interest in the show. After the cell saga I didn’t really keep up with it anymore and I barely remember Buu saga and beyond.
I also just hate any pacifist ideology, especially a show like this. It was the dumbest part of Gundam Wing too. Pacifism is just the most ignorant and naive ideologies, and intensely boring as a plot device
Just wanted to say that the editing was freaking fantastic during that video.
I always wished Ultimate Gohan had the SSJ green eyes. That would have been sick
That's a random statement but a cool one
Wouldn't fit. Black eyes look fine
@@lapplandkun9273 I guess that’s your opinion. The anime showed what this would look like twice. First time was when Goku transformed for the Androids and the second time was when Gohan transformed for Kibito. Both looked really cool to me personally
Acually i came to the realization that red would have been a perfect color for his eyes like his beast form becuse red represents gohan cause the color red represents anger,love,youth and enegy
I think Toriyama just hates DBZ and at that point was already checked out.
He’s still my goat, and I’ll never let him go!
Gohan as a pacifist (at least against sentient beings and not for purposes of food) in cell saga does make sense to me purely because that was the first time he actually had the upper hand, the power advantage, the ability to kill and his enemy had the energy of his father and his friends and he had to fight alone that's a part too. He also probably gained more consciousness lol.
GT Gohan and Super (Manga) Gohan are the closest thing to those two versions being perfectly balanced characters.
I love how you specified "manga" of super instead of the anime
@@chromephoneanime Gohan is well written as well in T.O.P Gohan quit putting his head in a book all time and actually started training again, dbs super hero is a different continuity, so I can't speak on that
@@Sydney-wi1ym no no no dbs is the same continuity dbs super hero gohan was just VERRY BUSY
Gohan had a lifetime of being pushed into situations where he had to fight. He had experiences where when he hesitated, he lost friends shopping how he met confrontations. It could be that he wasn't even a pacifist. He could have felt like all his agency was taken from him by the circumstances constantly surrounding him
im no Toriyama, but he seriously could have put a twist on Gohan's character. Instead of completely dismissing Gohan's potential, he could have built Gohan's character even more with showing that although Gohan doesn't have the leading role aspects, he could have used other means to help Gohan grow into a leading character. Instead of having him not desire fighting, Toriyama could have shifted his character development to needing to be strong to defend those he loves. Like Future Gohan's character, because of his loved ones gone, he had to become strong to defend the Earth.. just me
LMAO Body Pillow pack, this game knows their audience! xD
Very well crafted video and I appreciate how you keep it to the facts!
Getting screwed over by toriyama has to run in the family