Bundeswehr vs Soviet Army: Marder vs. BMP-2
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- In this video Jens Wehner from the MHM Dresden and I talk about the armored personnel carriers of the Bundeswehr and Soviet Army during the Cold War, specifically the Marder 1 and the BMP-2.
Disclaimer: I was invited by Militärhistorische Museum der Bundeswehr Dresden in 2019 & 2021. www.mhmbw.de/
Disclaimer II: Thank you to the Panzermuseum Munster for inviting me to Stahl auf der Heide 2019.
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#Marder,#BMP2,#MarderVsBMP
For a far deeper look into the Marder including internal shots, check out this video: ruclips.net/video/XbxJYDHUjno/видео.html
Jens Wehner has now his own channel, although in German, you can check it out here: www.youtube.com/@MTGJW
Hey MHV if you’re reading this I just wanted to thank you for your commitment to learning and teaching. Ive learned so much from watching your videos and you’ve quickly become one of my favorite history channels on youtube. Im excited for everything you have to post due to the high quality factual documentation, research and explanations you give. Im excited to see how big this channel can get as in my opinion its the best for anyone interested in 20th century military history! Thank you!
Thank you!
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Very minor point, but that's not quite how you should pronounce 'vehicle' in english. You guys are saying 'vee-hikle' with a distinct 'h', whereas it should be closer to 'vee-ikle' with a suppressed 'h'. Otherwise keep up the great work!
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized ignore the shlonse who commented about accents. Nobody cares about your German accent. We're just happy you're teaching.
Go for it!
🤣🤣🤣🤣😂
I know the vast amount of your followers are interested mostly in WWII, so I really appreciate it when you do these cold war videos.
BMP: *swims*
Marder: *dives*
BMP: "must kill submarine for the Motherland!"
BMP BURNS!!!...No shit. It really burns.
@@pexxajohannes1506 And the personel inside dies of carbon dioxide poisoning xD
BTW, tze Marder is an IFV not an APC. "Schützenpanzer" not "Manschaftstranportwagen/Fahrzeug", meine Herren!
@@pexxajohannes1506, Prior to the A3 version, Marder was protected at the BMP-2 level. And the A3 version with a reinforced forehead of the hull appeared in 1989, when the BMP-3 was already in the USSR
@@pexxajohannes1506, Comparison of armor thickness
pp.userapi.com/ZFgLC3tGVVDJDaGPo9Al2GjExQBUY74LyeNITg/HSt4q1Lwqps.jpg
@@cttc-chintokastacticalcrap2421 weird comment about it not being APC considering those two are compared in the video and BMP is literary translated as IFV(it's where the f//cking name is coming from!). Like heck, Cap, no one claimed it wasn't IFV:D
They look like they got taller in the switch lol.
This was a great vid and I really like how Jens at least seems more comfortable doing these videos with you. A pleasure to watch you both talking tanks :)
Nice title & thumbnail, good graphics behind, it felt a bit personal, human touches. Really, really well done!
Thank you very much!
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized So happy to see you emerging from your comfort zone Bernhard. Keep going, it's all coming together. I felt more personally connected here, even though I [internet 'know'] you guys both pretty well.
The graphics are so much better than previous collabs too.
But please take out & bury that brown leather backscreen on MHNV! Just stick a picture, graphic, or map or two, somehow related (who cares really) behind you for a more human touch! Yes, you'll be a pariah if you do in Austria for destroying simplicity & adding empathy but that's the lumps!
Nice work on the rest too. I know that the tedium of some bits (eg thumbnails) is hard. Have you thought of asking your Patreons for help on them? Mentour Pilot does. I bet some skilled Patreons would leap at the chance to help.
Cheers from Canberra (-6deg last night but beautiful 18deg day today!)
I like the doctrine and general idea of why a certain vehicle was made to be much more than technical aspects
The contrast of the formal and informal styles in this video is very stark. Looking sharp, Bernhard!
Thank you for the video, which I really appreciated. i was an officer of the Panzrgrenadiere between 1987 and 1997. So I know it all! What REALLY disappointed me was that you did not show the tanks from the inside. PLEASE take a look and tell me what tank you´d prefer to sit in! Btw, I am 1,88m tall and I fitted WELL into the Marder...
Bin 1.93 und habe ebenfalls keine Probleme mit dem Platz im Marder gehabt ( SaZ 8 - PzGren ). Habe mich allerdings am Kommandatenplatz immer am wohlsten gefühlt. Had no problems to fit inside with 6.4 but admittedly felt always best on the commanders place.
I visited this museum in Dresden during my travels in Germany in 2012 and found it very well laid out and informative. It's a great reason to visit Dresden, of which there are many.
What's 15 tonnes between friends? ;-)
About armament, there is an interesting detail.
BMP always was(and still is) an AT vehicle of the mechanized section.
BMP-1 did it very directly: Grom 73mm gun was supposed to cover blind zone of the ATGM, which was pretty big.
BMP-2, apart from other changes, introduced a new ATGM(Konkurs), with a very small blind zone, so a more effective GP gun could be added.
Whats a GP Gun?
@@apocalypticsurvivor1881 general purpose
@@neniAAinen 30mm was needed to not waste atgm against numerous american apcs. That's why bmp3 still has it, even though it has 100mm too.
@@tedarcher9120 30mm can surpress enemy anti tank teams.
And now we have the BMP-2M with Kornets, 30mm, co-ax AND a grenade launcher bolted on top.
Looking very dapper. Well done sir!
Coming from red dragon looking for info on the marder 2 I love that you guys mention it ♥️🙏
Much more interesting talk with Jens! A lot better than when he reads from a paper. :)
Both weapon systems were also designed to protect their crew and passengers from the biological and chemical components of NBC warfare. While the video focuses on the vehicles operating in a post nuclear exchange environment, planners at the time considered all three aspects of NBC warfare to be possible. Just wanted to expand the context of the threat environment accounted for by their respective designs.
Thankyou both. Very much enjoyed
Marder A3 ... my beloved home for 4 years ....
Great video as always, I've never come away from one of these without learning something.
The Executive outcomes PMCs used the BMP-2 very effectively in Angola and Sierra Leone. The EO operators were mostly former SADF personnel and were very well trained in both conventional and COIN warfare in Southern Africa. BMP-2s were used to capture the diamond mining districts of Lunda Norte specifically the town of Cafunfo and Cacolo in 1994. The EO guys adapted quickly from their experience with South African APCs such as the CASSPIR. Its quite interesting how they used quite conventional mechanized warfare in the plains of Angola, something the SADF hadnt really done in SWA. The BMP-2 was also crucial for the Capture of Koidu mining town in Sierra Leone by EO.
Thanks for the info! That whole thing in Sierra Leone, and everything since, should be taught to every child in some detail before they leave school. Better and more realistic expectations of life and governments and businesses!
@@davidgoodnow269 very true. Lots of modern African history should be taught… mostly to show what shouldn’t happen. I actually did learn about Sierra Leone in school but I was familiar with it from my interest in the border war which started when I was probably too young😂(my uncle was a conscript in the SADF). South Africa seems to be going to hell now sadly as a result of the same disease plaguing most of Africa, corruption, greed, bad leadership and tribalism. As usual the poor, who bought into politicians promises, pay the highest price
@@uraninite8151 I knew of it because I slightly knew a few people in Executive Outcomes, and did export business with people in Sierra Leone and neighboring countries from the U.S. of A.
It is hard for me to stomach what the R.S.A. is turning in to, I thought it had a bright future ahead back then; and it did, for a while.
you should wear waistcoats more often, they suit you.
i see what you did there...
Very informative! Probably I should change my focus from 1900 - 1945 to 1900 - 1990
To be fair to the East Germans they were in the process of acquiring a lot more T-72s and the many of the deficiencies of the BMP-1 were addressed in the BMP-1P upgrade that meant buying more BMP-2s was a bit of a wishlist item and not an essential need.
Well, good luck with the T72. It was actually so shitty, the 120mm L44 with DM33 could shoot throughout the whole tank.
@@9thbloodandfire508 First generation Leo 2 aren't much better then the original T-72 though. The original Leo 2 and the Leo 2A4 can still be penetrated by the Russian 125mm 3BM29 and later rounds. Only after upgrades do they become impervious to the Russian 125mm at the time and by that time it's more comparable to the T80U than the older T72s. The T80U can not be penetrated by DM33 either so neither tanks can harm each other from the front anyway.
@@cuongle7990 Hate to be that guy, but I dont think we got any clue how good or bad a tanks armor until someone shot at it. Even the earliest composite armor types are highly classified, and so is the penetration capability.
Like, we only really know that original T-72s sucks because of the Gulf War, where 25mm autocannons took out some of those tanks. Are modern T-64/T72 family tanks any better? Who knows.
@@cuongle7990 Said Cuong Le, who never entered a real Leopard 2 and never sat in a real T-72. :) His knowledge comes from a PC-game :)
Im just trying to imagine beeing a armor grenadier stuck in a Marder and getting a tactical nuke dropped on me and my commander 5min later be like "ok guys, we have to leave now and assault the enemy position". Also beeing stuck in a tiny armored tin can in a nuclear blast area must be like sitting in a sinking submarine. You now you are fucked and are just going to die delayed.
this is why no major power launches nukes. There is no winning nuclear armageddon. The problem is when a government thinks it no longer has anything left to lose.
On the other side you don't hesitate anymore. During the cold war, there were huge conscripted armies on both sides. A conscript might be susceptible to think, "why should I die here, I want to go home to my family, and if the government changes, at least I'm still alive" or something along the lines.
But once the nukes are dropped, there is no home to go back to, there is only rage that they really did this, they nuked your country. It's on now. The least you can do now is to make those fuckers pay.
@Chan Kideoke hahaha. You must have a q tip stuck in your brain for you to comment something stupid. What a joke.
@Chan Kideoke but your public display of stupidity is definitely funnier.
Well, even in a conventional only campaign, the life expectancy of any individual armored fighting vehicle crewman was pretty short, like hours, days at the very most, especially on the Warsaw Pact side. So I think even in the absence of NBC weapon deployment, an order to attack, meaning it was now for real, would have caused much the same feelings.
BMP-2 was well used by the executive outcomes South African mercs in Sierra Leone in the 90s, really depends on how its used and the ability of the users.
Is there somewhere I can read about this?
@@someguy8732 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes This wiki about the limited company Executive Outcomes is a start
@@glynwelshkarelian3489 that doesn't give me any details, I was just wondering if someone had a source with details off hand so that I didn't have to spend a while looking
@@someguy8732 You got a source now?
@@sentientikeameatball8194 only the ones wikipedia lists. I haven't read them yet though
most important innovation of the Marder 2 was the Wechselkanone... changable gun... you could quickly change the gun tube and fire 35 or 50mm ammo without changes on the chamber or the inside of the vehicle... I was inside the Marder2 in Munster many years ago... even sitting in a museum we were not allowed to took pictures from the inside because the canone was still in development
To my knowledge, the Marder 2 is now at the WTD in Koblenz and not in Munster.
@@HaVoC117X The Marder 2 was at Munster many years ...they exchange tanks from time to time
@@HaVoC117X even at the wiki side about the Marder 2 is a picture of it standing in Munster Panzermuseum de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_2#/media/Datei:Marder_2.jpg
@@nagmashot sorry dude, didnt want to hurt your feelings. But people who watch the video and get interested in the marder 2 won't find it in munster right now.
@@HaVoC117X noobs like you cant hurt me... never claimed it is still in Munster only claimed it was in Munster many years and that I was inside in the Prototype many years ago in Munster... reading and understanding is sometimes difficult I know... but dont give up one day you understand it too
Great video, never knew that the Marders were so big. Next time, when you cover APCs and the like, you should really do some talking at the rear of the vehicles, that way we get an idea of just how large or small the troop compartment is. For instance, I know from seeing a BMP in person that they're really cramped in the back and I'm not a particularly tall person, but not everybody knows that. So seeing and Jens standing around the back of the vehicles gives viewers less familiar with the vehicle(s) a point of reference for the troop compartment size.
Super Video Jungs! Thx!
Well I guess we will find out.
Hey, I just wanted to point out that Russian Armed Forces were renamed in 1946 from the Red Army to Soviet Army, so at the point when BMP-2 was used it was in the Soviet Army.
No, they were not. The name Red Army was still official even in 1990.
@@comsubpac Yes, it was. Even the owner of the channel has noticed and changed the title.
What was the DDR army called? Because that is the one in question here.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 National peoples army. Nationale Volksarmee.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Nationale Volksarmee which translates to National People's Army.
To everyone who says the Bradley has too big of a gun and shouldn't have had ATGMs, look at the BMP. An even bigger gun and ATGMs. It's also like a 20-30mm cannon and ATGMs are a standard and necessary feature on all IFVs
The Bradley also used those ATGMs to knock out shitloads of tanks.
@@Raptor747 In the Gulf War, Bradleys destroyed more tanks than Abrams.
Great work man, keep it up!
The Marder was my favorite APC back in the 80's, because it was steel instead of Magnesium (aluminum) like our M-113 APC's
Another great video. Thanks again!
Thank you. I've always been intrigued with the Marder. I rode and drove the M113 APC, which was constructed of Magnesium (Aluminum) while the Marder was steel. It also.looks to have a much lower profile than the Bradley. Thanks again.
The marder is a heavy IFV akin to the merkava, it carries armour competent against infantry rockets and autocannons, making it arguably a lot more useful at directly supporting infantry.
@@simplicius11 When designed, yes.
@@simplicius11 If I remember right the base moder RPG 7 only has something like 550mm RHA equivalent penetration.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Marder is nothing like the Merkava, Merkava is an MBT that has a door in the back and technically room for extra people (not for transporting Infantry)
@@castor3020 Alright, namer then, not merkava.
Nice Dresden police sound in the back :) In Dresden the staff of NVA´s 7th Armored Division was resident. Her last commander was Colonel Volker Bednara.
Love the sirens in the background. They were a fairly common thing when I was there.
There is a mistake in this video. BMP had changed its armament mainly because missile technology had advanced enough to give anti tank capabilities to BMP-2. BMP-1 had its GROM cannon to fight enemy armor as it was believed to be the most important aspect of ground warfare. GROM also had far superior bunker busting capabilities to autocannon. When technology matured enough, there was no real reason to keep on low velocity smoothbore cannon when practice showed that autocannons are a lot more useful for IFV. Though, BMP-1 still has a massive advantage over BMP-2 in armor piercing capabilities and its GROM weapon is both accurate and covers up weaknesses of its own ATGMs in their minimum fighting range.
In the West, people often make mistakes when comparing these two reasons and why transition had happened.
Also, he is wrong on BMP armor layout. While it was indeed was thin, it was capable of resisting Marder firepower. It is down mostly to its shape which gives a lot of protection, but other than front of a vehicle, it was rather thin and it could protect only against heavy machine gun fire at a range which it was likely designed for in a first place.
Another note, Grom did not had limited capabilities against enemy armor. I did not quite understood that point, but Grom could kill any tank of its time with exception of T-64. Only later it became less effective, but only against late cold war tanks like Leopards 2 and Abrams.
bmp-2 armor is not immune to later variant of 20mm round such as dm63 apds, it was only somewhat immune to dm43.
@@superknightlol If I'm not mistaken, DM63 was introduced in 1989. Like a lot of western ammunition, it came way too late to be considered in cold war calculations.
Here is a source on frontal armor of BMP-family vehicles:
"The lower glacis is probably the stronger half of the front hull. It is a 15mm plate sloped at 56 degrees - thinner than same plate on the BMP-1 which was 19mm thick sloped at 57 degrees. The reduced thickness was compensated by the increased hardness and strength of the new BT-70Sh steel which raised the effective thickness of the 15mm plate on the BMP-2 to the same level as the BMP-1. In practical terms, this compares favourably to the 32mm plate sloped at 24 degrees that forms lower glacis of the Marder 1, A1 and A2 when attacked with small arms and some autocannons, including the ordnance from the Marder 1. For instance, German DM43 APCR ammunition of the 20x139mm caliber fired from the Marder 1's Rh202 autocannon is able to penetrate 32mm of RHA armour at 0 degrees at 1,000 meters, but its performance drops sharply down to just 8mm of penetration on armour sloped at 60 degrees at the same distance. For the better half of its life during the Cold War, this part of the BMP-2 was therefore frontally immune to 12.7mm machine gun bullets and to 20mm shells and anything in between from close range. The vastly more effective DM63 APDS was introduced sometime in the mid-80's, and that would have been able to defeat the frontal armour of the BMP-2 out to 1,000 meters and more."
thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2016/
As you see, Marder was quite toothless against BMP vehicles unless engaging at a flat angles sideways or rear. Until late 70's Marder effectively could not fight against Soviet equivalents in BMP-1/2's without its Milan missiles.
The main gun of the BMP 1 is literally an SPG9.
No, tests with East German ( NVA) BMPs at the WTD 91 in Meppen at the early nineties showed that the 20mm of the Marder was able to penetrate the armour of the BMP 1 in excess of 1000 meters.
@@markschoning5581 Without sources your claim is baseless and pointless.
Puke Wagen is the 100% accurate name for BMP1/BVP1 and due to lack of empty casing fumes BMP2 fits here only like 95%.
15 tons grows to 33 tons?? I’ve heard that called “Scope Creep”!
That's me after spending Christmas home, with grandma cooking.
It called German beer belly
Did you have a warrant on you there, Bernhard? Sounds like the police was really looking for someone.
I think the Mader 2 is in the Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung Koblenz. When I was there in 2019 there was one there.
yep, it was at one point in Munster, but moved to the WTS.
Da bin ich ja ganz in der Nähe
Great vid MHV. These chats with JW are always enjoyable. I'm going to have to mention that Kotzkubel at some point in a comment on German Girl in America's YT channel. I'll blame you MHV. :-) Note that NASA has / had a plane for training astronauts, to simulate 0 G, by flying in parabolic arcs - its called the "vomit comet".
Must have been a bit frustrating having the sirens go right during filming
I actually did not really noticed them that much (or I forgot), this was the second last video in a 3 day filming spree.
On behalf of the dying person who was waiting for the ambulace in agony I do apologize.
I love the looks of the Marder 1A3
Suggestion: set the camera free to walk around the vehicle, behind the vehicle, above the vehicle and narrate over the footage. We want to see all aspects of the vehicle.
cogs, hatches, wheels, welds, lights, tracks, antenna .....
Soon we will have distinct and only answer to that compartment
Marder couldn't swim, but could wade darned deep! Radiation levels would drop significantly over several days, but a day's endurance inside the vehicle would permit the crew to drive to get outside an irradiated area, and get to where they could exit the vehicle and get decontaminated.
Some of the calculations for armored vehicles have to do with the Lanchester equations, which for aimed fire argue that combat power is proportional to the square of the firing units in combat. Increasing the number of firing units increases fire, but also increases the number of units that an enemy has to suppress or destroy, leading to the effectiveness being proportional to the square of the number of units. The ability of a more mobile force to concentrate to fight may thus outweigh qualitative disadvantages in the individual firing units. That lesson was driven home in WWII, and was one reason why the German officers of the Bundeswehr sought a lighter, more mobile tank in the Leopard (1).
Why does that BMP-2 not have the muzzle brake? BMP-2 without the muzzle brake looks much worse.
Looking sharp!
German troops I spoke to at the time I was over with BAOR liked their Marders (as a tabletop gamer, I was always nosy AF about other armies kit, security people would have hated to know what odd things we gamers casually talked about)
I'm a wargamer and veteran too. (US Army) At the MTA in Baumholder, we hosted all NATO countries. I had the opportunity to check out everybody's equipment. Two of the vehicles that impressed me were the Marder and the Luchs. I enjoyed talking to soldiers from other countries, especially the Brits. I had to haul a busload of drunken Brits back to the barracks one night. Their colloquial expressions had me laughing the whole way. One guy was criticizing one of his mates and said "Me grandmother can piss in her boots better than you can shoot the bloody mortar."
How did you know I was about to build a model of a Marder and was going to need some references? ;P Nice video BTW
😂
Don't forget that not being able to penetrate tank doesn't mean not being able to damage it. There are several accounts from many veterans of chechen and donbass conflicts of successfully using autocanons against tanks. Sure, they didn't penetrate but destroyed most of sights and scopes so that tanks wouldn't been able to hit even big targets like villages, not saying anything about single vehicles/houses
I really hope Combat Mission: Cold War does well enough to add a Bundeswehr module. Seeing some of this West German kit in action against the Soviets would be a dream come true.
Nice video, thanks
8:20
The main difference between the BMP-2 and the BMP-1 is the gun. The old BMP-1 cannon did not penetrate more modern tanks, and in Afghanistan such a problem as an insufficient angle of elevation of the barrel was revealed. It couldn't shoot at the mountains. And the BMP-2 has a larger angle of elevation of the barrel and a completely different conceptual weapon. The BMP-2 is primarily an armored personnel carrier, and only in the second place - a fighter with enemy armored vehicles, but NOT with tanks.
Main problem with 73mm is very bad ballistics
I finally unlocked the Marder in War Thunder…though I first had to grind some SL to buy and crew it 🙄
What really struck me was how heavy the Marder is compared to other IFVs, especially the BMPs. So this Video couldn’t have a better timing 😂
Same but I use it as SPAA with an anti-tank added on to get in case a tank comes in front of my SPAA
Well, you chair fighters how about to go outside and support Ukraine?
@@steffenrosmus9177how about you?
You dindt miss the Marder 2 in Munster (Which would have been impossible, given the time you must have spend there :) ) As of 4 weeks ago the Marder 2 is definetly not in the exibition. Must be in a Depo. According to some people from the friends of the DPM organisation, the Museum aims not to exibit Prototyps anyway. In short. If you want to see the Marder 2, you have to go to Koblenz. Which you should do anyway.
is the Marder 2 even still in Koblenz? It was brought to the WTD 41 In October last year, and I dont know if it returned yet (cant check either, the WTS is closed since Corona started)
@@L963-h9r Hi, am just rewatching this Video as research for a new Video of mine.
There is one Marder 2 which was switched around from Munster to Koblenz periodically. Right now it is in Munster and has been for some time.
Good quality , easy to watch videos by actual experts . K
Even more than against NBC environment and HMGs, BMP armor was primarily designed to protect against shrapnel from artillery shells.
That is kinda the point of armored vehicles
The "Eisenschwein" (iron pig) was the BTR-152 in the east german army...
Warsaw Pact nations concluded the maximum engagement ranges is Eastern Europe was 1,300m and would be even less if they ended up in the parts of Germany not on the Great Eurasian Plain. Once you understand this a lot of their design choices start to make sense.
Another thing little known about the BMP series is that their armour is better than the base thickness implies. This is because the generally have a high BRN in the 550 range, far more than that seen in the NATO vehicles and you can generally expect them to have armour equivalent to 1.3 times that of equivalent NATO vehicles. This comes at a cost and a high BRN means you have worse spalling characteristics as the armour is more brittle, but all armour design is a series of choices and for amphibious vehicles weight is paramount.
A unintended consequence of a tank that is tightly sealed is when it is hit by a IED, Landmine, etc the damage to the humans is much more severe. A vehicle that is tightly sealed and built for use in Chemical weapons areas is a example. A MRAP is intentionally unsealed to dissipate the blast and increase survivability of the people.
> A MRAP is intentionally unsealed to dissipate the blast and increase survivability of the people.
what, are you sure about that? I did a video on MRAPs and I remember various approaches like mounting the seats on the top of the vehicle, etc. but I can't remember running across this one, but maybe I forgot. ruclips.net/video/-PNwsyPiuRI/видео.html
It should be noted that the Marder wasn´t 32 tons from the beginning as this weight was the final result of constant improvement during its long use in the German army
in Kyiv there is a husk of a bmp2 on public display that you can climb inside of through a hole where the driver used to be
there isnt much in it but its there
Dont talk bad about bundeswehr.
Or they will Marder you
Some grenadiers calld the marder also "homohöhle" which means homocave or gaycave.😁
Must be due to the red light used at night inside....
@@oliverbraun4966 möglicherweise. Ich habe nie gefragt.
Just a small point that got to me personally. The Marder and BMP are not considered APC's (armored personel carriers) they are IFV's (infantry fighting vehicles). The Fuchs and Boxer more closely match the definition of APC.
Source: am Panzergrenadier 😂😂😂
Yeah, battletaxi (APC) vs Fire support vehicle (IFV)
The HS 30 looks like an APC version of the famous Jagdpanzer Kanone.
It is actually the other way round, they had the APC and thought about what else they could stick into this...
@@sakkra83 Nope. They DID build a HS 30 with a 90mm gun. But both KaJaPa and RaJaPa with HOT (and TOW - a rebuild KaJaPa) are NOT based on the HS30. They are spin offs from the Marder, diverging from the second batch of prototypes (Marder is from the 3rd batch).
@@mbr5742 Well I stand corrected!
@@sakkra83 I have scale models of KaJaPa and Marder on my desk and the Tankograd publications on both as reference. Otherwise I would not know either
It would be more interesting to compare it to the over armed and under armored BMP-3
Hi MHV thanks for the great content. I really enjoy the museum episodes and expert talks. It's really nice to be able to actually see the equipment you are talking about. I have an idea, maybe you can do your interviews in German and have English subtitles. I know that it would be more work for you, but I feel that it would improve the flow of the conversation and maybe its quality. What do you and the other viewers of course think of this suggestion?
Thanks again for the great content!
Source: Our Brains :D
My professors never approved of that source :(
Have you been to or plan to go to the Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung Koblenz?
not yet, plans yes then again I have plans for a lot of things ;)
Were the smoke grenade dischargers originally an East German modification on the BMP? Didn’t the Soviets adopt them later themselves? I know I first saw them on the German Tiger tanks of World War Two and they were standard on western AFVs during the Cold War, but when did the Warsaw Pact first use them?
At first i thought it was the fire station 100+ meters from my apartment who was on call, then i read some posts here and then the token fell down, hmm good stereo sounds in my speakers.
We have the same sound on ours emergency vehicles in Sweden.
The Germans always make the coolest looking and baddest ass kickin armored vehicles. Just look at their latest effort KF41 Lynx
BMP-2 has gasoline tanks all around crew compartment (back doors), gets a bit claustrophopic inside while getting shot at. Also very crumped space for 6 fellows with full gear on
Баки, находящиеся в задних дверях ЗАПРЕЩЕНО наполнять в боевых условиях. Они ТОЛЬКО для перегона техники.
@@dtryorva603 Благодарю за разъяснение! Некоторые страны не следуют этому правилу.
BMP2 was a good IFV, the only problem is if I am not mistaken, the Warsaw Pact did not have as many IFVs as NATO, although a higher number on paper, but the Warsaw Pact had less of what NATO understood as a IFV (a lightly armored vehicle with a 2-3cm cannon and an ATGM).
I'd be surprised if that were true. The Warsaw Pact had tens of thousands of BMPs and BTRs.
13:33 when it comes to puking in IFVs. I have a friend in the Polish army and he says it's almost impossible to not vomit if you are driving in the crew compartment of a BMP-1.
Also the fenders are famously easy to damage and in very short supply, as per famous meme video "ensign Andrew, please dont get mad about the fender" ( originally "Andrzeju nie denerwuj się " :)))
All it takes is one guy to puke, and then the smell sets off a chain reaction, afaik.
Somewhat the same story with M2/M3 Bradley, adding stuff all the time getting heavier and bigger.
Still surprised it proved "lethal beyond all expectations" in combat, including in the Gulf War where it went toe-to-toe with T-72s and destroyed them with its chaingun. I really thought its high profile would be its downfall, especially compared to the much more low-slung BMPs.
@@IrishCarney Most of the Iraqi tanks were destroyed by aircraft. There are studies on this topic.
@@ReSSwend Irrelevant! I didn't say the Bradley accounted for most kills. The point was that when it encountered enemy armor (that air craft had not already destroyed), the Bradley was highly effective.
@@IrishCarney Your problem is that you represent the battle as a duel, at this time how important the combined arms battle is, the interaction of all branches of the military. Do you think if Iraq had Bradleys it would help them? There is a video on the Internet of Iraqi government troops with tanks Abrams running around from ISIS that have not a single tank.
@@ReSSwend I fully concede the crucial nature of combined arms, as well as training and doctrine and morale and intelligence and logistics and more. A weapon being good is itself not enough. But that's not what we're talking about. The actual issue here is, is the Bradley a good weapon in the first place, before we even discuss those other issues? That was the point of the original post from WreckingCrew666: to parrot the narrative from that "Pentagon Wars" movie that the Bradley was a bad weapon.
Is that a medium tank? No, it's an IFV.
Though they did make a medium tank for Argentina that had a lot of parts in common, if I'm not mistaken.
Should be Bundeswehr vs National Volksarmee. Don't ignore the East Germans, who had probably the best military in the Warsaw Pact, second maybe only to the Soviets. And the absolute highest readiness rate of anyone on either side of the inner German border.
"who had probably the best military in the Warsaw Pact" why do you think that NVA was better than Czechoslovaika or Poland? :D
That "high readiness" is questionable. It destroyed the equipment and especially in the last decades more and more east German soldiers had to replace workers in the factories.
@@comsubpac East Germany made very little of its own major military equipment. I'm not talking about the rifles, helmets, and boots, but the armored vehicles, trucks, missiles, aircraft, ships, etc, nearly all of which was made in the USSR. A few items were Czech or Polish made, usually Soviet designs under license.
@@fuksji Higher morale. More hours of training. Better equipment (often top-level stuff the USSR usually reserved for itself, not the downgraded stuff the Soviets exported).
@@IrishCarney do you have some valid sources for "more training?" Poor moral Is true for Czechoslovakia. But still just said "nva was better". If you have some solid sources i would be glad
You da best Bernhard!!!
Thank you to the Fire Brigade for their contributions to the sound track. LOL :)
lol
I will always be partial to German designs. Something so industrial/steampunk about them!! Marder for the WIN!!
very good. thanks
Think we're going to find out quite shortly how they match up. This is off to Ukraine. My money is on the German engineering. Keep it up guys. Leopards next hopefully.
I hope they fight all the russians off, before we have to send leopards.. that would be too easy
both side eat each IFVs and APCs with artillery lol. Its rare for armor to face each other
@@samysdefer Poland is sending 10 leopard 2s . But Leopards wont make a difference to this battle nor would even the T-14s help russia any better. Unless NATO literally send them a couple hundreds.
@@cherrypoptart2001 umm I don't think so. Russia also has hundeeds of tanks but can't advance. Hundreds of tanks for the ukraine would be impossible to manage for them
Keep in mind the variability and complexity of the war in Ukraine. There's a mix of weapons from WW2 all the way up to classified modern technology. Russia is also now very different from the Soviet army as it's much more corrupted, divided, demoralized, and relies on mercenaries like the Wagner group.
Still wondering about the excess weight...
Funny that from where im from, both of these IFVs are used in the same time
Rocking the tie and vest. Looks sharp. Love your content. Jens called a Marder a tank. Hmmm... APC/IFV/tank... I am so confused :-)
nice conversation, but video didn't really show anything, so it might have been done by phone with cartoon images.
This Video aged well
i wonder why vehicles were designed with atomic warfare in mind, i mean by that point the war either has been lost, theres nothing to gain or there is nothing to defend, like, what would be the point of fighting over irradiated ruins?
unless their concern was over tactical nuclear weapons
The consideration was almost always for the situation of *tactical* nuclear weapons, as you guessed.
The same considerations apply to chemical warfare as well.
I would rather ride a Marder into battle than a BMP. For instance, the BMP has fuel tanks built into the rear doors...
The Marder is also much better for tall people...
Those fuel tanks are placed there because they can stop projectiles and dispell shock waves to protect the crew.
Guessing you got the myth of fuel tanks easily igniting from films and games
It's like a comparison of Lada and Mercedes 😎
All I can tell you is that there are about fifty-four billion BMP-2s stationed on Mother Base.
I gotta say it. Scholz send the armor over already. Are you sleeping on the job?
that is the strangest Ice Cream truck music I've ever heard?
nice little Wargame reference there lol