We were disfellowshipped by our meeting for not attending the Lord's Supper on a regular basis after losing our son. We left soon after because where is the grace and mercy and understanding? We did nothing wrong we just could not face attending the church on a regular basis, but we still had our faith. Today we have a small home meeting that is based on love and understanding. Yes for sinful behaviour withdraw but not for having a broken heart.
the answer is never ...always welcomed and never to late to change ..jesus hanged out with sinners their the ones that needed most help ..lord god jesus is the only one to do the judging in the end..we are all not without fault
Where do we see ANYWHERE in the BIBLE where Jesus Christ treated people as if they were dead, that he EVER shunned ANYONE. We are instructed to FOLLOW Jesus example and to FOLLOW his teachings. He showed all of us by EXAMPLE how we are to treat people even when they were doing wrong. Judas betrayed Jesus and yet Jesus still called him "my brother", Peter denied Jesus three times, did Jesus shun him, the prostitute that Jesus defended...she was a prostitute for goodness sake, did Jesus not step up and speak in her behalf? What about doubting Thomas, who was never going to be convinced that Jesus had risen unless he had proof...did Jesus stop having FELLOWSHIP with any of these people, including tax collectors? No, he DID NOT. So if we are going to follow in Jesus footsteps, we are to handle wrong doers LOVINGLY and try to HELP them correct their steps. No one is saying to HANG OUT with them, but to give them words of encouragement when you run into them is something Jesus Christ would most certainly do. 1 John 4:8 clearly states “Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. Even Jesus Christ Father Jehovah makes it clear that we are to LOVE each other. Shunning people and treating them as if they are dead is a far cry from showing love. People have actually committed SUICIDE because of this practice. Families, and Marriages are DESTROYED because people keep taking the scriptures out of context. Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the originators of families and marriage. How dare a bunch of imperfect men, who admit they are NOT INSPIRED by God and they are NOT INFALLIBLE, come along and DESTROY what Jesus has put together….They don’t have the right to play GOD. When the apostles asked Jesus “which is the GREATEST command?” Jesus stated at Matthew 22:36-40 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?” 37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[b] the same as you love yourself.’[c] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.” So, these TWO COMMANDS is what God and Christ is going to hold us accountable for….these two commands supersede ALL OTHER RULES and COMMANDMENTS - - as noted in verse 40. Throwing family members away is and NEVER will be the kind of LOVE spoken of in God’s Word the BIBLE….NEVER!!!!!
Thank you Dr Brown, I love how you make all your statements with Love and humility, may Our Heavenly Father continually bless you, and make His face shine upon you.... In Jesus precious name... bless youxxx
People these days would see bringing a person like that issues before the church and calling them out as judging. People who don't understand God's word always use the judge card.
Thank you for posting this. There are churches that do this and it's difficult to justify to those who belong to churches that turn their heads when there's blatant sin in the fellowship.
surely disfellowshipping is one thing but if they are a close relative surely its wrong to have nothing to do with them wheres the love ,i suppose its different if someone says i don't believe this anymore ?? and leaves ??
your points are well taken the watchtower has taken it to a new level the verses never say dont say anything to them that is not what is said. paul mentioned even be reproving them . this no talking to them is not what the bible says. surely there should be no associating with them. another point is the ones handling it are removing people without concern of their repentance that is a violation. but your points are well taken
I have a question. How can disfellowshipping work when the church has public meetings and the disfellowsipped member keeps coming? How are they to be treated?
I know this is not the norm but what about those that married solely for papers and divorce the person? Would the church recognize this as marriage? Would God consider it a marriage?
The Bible is clear that divorce should only be on the grounds of two cases - abandonment (meaning the person completely and totally leaves the spouse for extended period of time and never comes back; leaving for a day or two doesn't count) and adultery. From my understanding, a legally-authorized marriage between a man and a woman is considered marriage to God. God considers marriage to be very sacred. It's actually a covenant that a man and woman make with God. It should not be something to enter into and exit from as it suits us. The discipline, if any, would have to be decided by the pastor and elders of the local church. I don't think there is a "cookie cutter" answer to your question in all circumstances.
So those who pay to obtain citizenship by marriage, yet never once lived together but was only trying to circumvent the law is still considered marriage before God?
With all respect and in my opinion, you're spitting in God's face by saying "eh, yeah, technically we are married, but it's just a legal thing. It doesn't mean anything. We're just *disobeying the law* in order to serve my needs!" Really think and pray about it. This, of course, is just my opinion. If the law says you're married, you're married. I don't think a "consummation" is necessary to make it an "actual" marriage. But others might disagree.
Daric, thank you for your opinion but I rather have GOD's opinion. Learn how to be graceful with your speech. You are the classic example of people who claim to know God and yet your choice of words are careless and cold. Jesus said that on the day of judgment, you will give account for every careless word you speak. Be careful! Your opinion is not the word of God. I was hoping for an exchange...preferably with someone who has knowledge of scripture. I am not interested in those who love to voice their opinion. The Bible speaks against people who love to do so in Proverbs 18:2, and it's not good. Show grace, and love. If reproving me is what you have in mind, the Bible also teaches you how to do so: Colossians 4:6 Let your speech *_always be gracious_*, seasoned with salt, so that you may *know how to answer everyone*. 2 Timothy 2:25 He must *_gently_* reprove those who *_oppose_* him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. Furthermore, you are making an ad hominem/strawman argument. You are making it about me disobeying the law. It's wise not to place judgment base solely on your opinion. Facts matters. Since you use the "law" argument, I'm going to show you what it states on this matter. _U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is a component of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The stated priorities of USCIS are to promote national security, to eliminate immigration case backlogs, and to improve customer services. It is charged with processing immigrant visa petitions, naturalization petitions, and asylum and refugee applications, as well as making adjudicative decisions performed at the service centers, and managing all other immigration benefits functions_ On it's website, it states: " _USCIS does __*__not_*_ recognize the following relationships as marriages_, *_even if valid in the place of celebration_* : _Relationships entered into for purposes of evading immigration laws of the United States_." So that should clear the misconception that not all who entered marriage are recognized as such by the government. Peace be with you!
I summarized scripture without actually quoting it and I am accused of being ungracious...okay. Also, when you ask for an opinion about what God thinks, and then someone tells you what scripture says, and you get upset, whose fault is that? Mine or yours? There's nothing in the Bible that says a "true" marriage must be consummated or be done with "true intent." Marriage has been and always will be a contract signed between two people. Whether you do it in front of a judge or in a church, it's a marriage. Only two cases acceptable to God for divorce: adultery (Matthew 5:32, 19:9) and abandonment (1 Cor. 7:15). Nothing about legal papers. (Matthew 19:8-9): “Jesus said, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” God also specifically says he hates divorce (Malachi 2:16). Paul also states "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife..." (1 Cor. 7:3-4). When you get married, what does the minister/judge ask? Paraphrasing, "do you promise to love and cherish this person, in sickness or in health, until death?" If you say yes, knowing that you're only going to do it for about a week before divorcing so you can get a visa or citizenship or something, you're lying. It also seems you care more about what an earthly government agency, such as the USCIS, says about marriage than what God says. Also, remember that the US government has already redefined marriage to include homosexual marriages, which is clearly forbidden in the Bible. Thus, if you are basing what "marriage" is solely off the judgments of a government, you are already going against God's laws. Do you *really* care about what God thinks, or do you just want someone to give the answer you're hoping to hear? Call me a hypocrite or being "ungracious"; I am just quoting God's word. Take it up with Him.
If a person is rejected by the entire congregation for not repenting for their sin, and they are removed from the church, then they are rejected by Christ as well because the church is the body of Christ. There's no more chance of repentance for such a person. This is apostasy spoken of in Hebrews 6:6. To reiterate, to refuse to repent is to refuse to denounce the sin, which is to renounce the truth which is Christ, which is to crucify Christ afresh. This is a person that has trodden under foot the Son of God spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-29.
John Grytbakk I can respect that you actually provided verses for your argument, but you have to pay close attention to what's being discussed. Of course Christians are to correct one another in the spirit of meekness, but the subject matter is what's to be done when a person doesn't repent! Titus 3:10
John Grytbakk according to what you know from Scripture,if a person commits a sinful act and doesn't repent even after the first and second admonitions when being confronted by the church, and THEN that person is rejected, does that person have any chance of repentance from then on?
John Grytbakk John Grytbakk my question was does that person have any chance of repentance... NOT "if" he repents. Those are 2 different scenarios. The reason I had to ask you this question is because I was convinced that you didn't understand my original comment. I'm convinced even more because you didn't understand my question. What you're saying is true, just like what you've said in the beginning, but it has nothing to do with my comment and so you seem confused and out of place right now. If I'm right then James 3:14-17 may be able to help you
John Grytbakk You say that's all you need to know but the Scriptures speak on this topic much deeper than your understanding obviously which means you aren't fully equipped. How presumptuous of you to indirectly acknowledge that you don't know the answer and have no need or desire to know. I'll leave you with the words of Jesus: since you say you see, you shall remain blind.
We were disfellowshipped by our meeting for not attending the Lord's Supper on a regular basis after losing our son. We left soon after because where is the grace and mercy and understanding? We did nothing wrong we just could not face attending the church on a regular basis, but we still had our faith. Today we have a small home meeting that is based on love and understanding. Yes for sinful behaviour withdraw but not for having a broken heart.
Jehova Witnesses are *not* the same as normal christian religions, be aware of their cult-like status before engaging in their activities.
the answer is never ...always welcomed and never to late to change ..jesus hanged out with sinners their the ones that needed most help ..lord god jesus is the only one to do the judging in the end..we are all not without fault
Where do we see ANYWHERE in the BIBLE where Jesus Christ treated people as
if they were dead, that he EVER shunned ANYONE.
We are instructed to FOLLOW Jesus example and to FOLLOW his teachings. He
showed all of us by EXAMPLE how we are to treat people even when they were
doing wrong. Judas betrayed Jesus and yet Jesus still called him "my
brother", Peter denied Jesus three times, did Jesus shun him, the
prostitute that Jesus defended...she was a prostitute for goodness sake, did Jesus
not step up and speak in her behalf? What about doubting Thomas, who was never
going to be convinced that Jesus had risen unless he had proof...did Jesus stop
having FELLOWSHIP with any of these people, including tax collectors? No, he
DID NOT. So if we are going to follow in Jesus footsteps, we are to handle
wrong doers LOVINGLY and try to HELP them correct their steps. No one is saying
to HANG OUT with them, but to give them words of encouragement when you run
into them is something Jesus Christ would most certainly do. 1 John 4:8
clearly states “Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Even Jesus Christ Father Jehovah makes it clear that we are to LOVE each other.
Shunning people and treating them as if they are dead is a far cry from showing love.
People have actually committed SUICIDE because of this practice. Families, and Marriages
are DESTROYED because people keep taking the scriptures out of context. Jehovah
and Jesus Christ are the originators of families and marriage. How dare a bunch
of imperfect men, who admit they are NOT INSPIRED by God and they are NOT
INFALLIBLE, come along and DESTROY what Jesus has put together….They don’t have
the right to play GOD. When the apostles asked Jesus “which is the GREATEST
command?” Jesus stated at Matthew 22:36-40 36 He said, “Teacher, which command
in the law is the most important?” 37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And
the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[b] the same as you
love yourself.’[c] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take
their meaning from these two commands.” So, these TWO COMMANDS is what God and
Christ is going to hold us accountable for….these two commands supersede ALL
OTHER RULES and COMMANDMENTS - - as noted in verse 40. Throwing family members
away is and NEVER will be the kind of LOVE spoken of in God’s Word the BIBLE….NEVER!!!!!
Thank you Dr Brown, I love how you make all your statements with Love and humility, may Our Heavenly Father continually bless you, and make His face shine upon you.... In Jesus precious name... bless youxxx
Amen, Brother. "Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them". EPH. 5:11
People these days would see bringing a person like that issues before the church and calling them out as judging. People who don't understand God's word always use the judge card.
Good clarification Dr Brown. Thank you.
Thank you for posting this. There are churches that do this and it's difficult to justify to those who belong to churches that turn their heads when there's blatant sin in the fellowship.
Shunning / disfellowship is still part of the BITE module for cult behavior. Behavior Information thought and emotion. ( BITE)
Causing dissensions among brethren is also a scriptural reason for disfellowship.
surely disfellowshipping is one thing but if they are a close relative surely its wrong to have nothing to do with them wheres the love ,i suppose its different if someone says i don't believe this anymore ?? and leaves ??
Does this mean to act as if there dead? Not to speak to them?ignore them?
your points are well taken the watchtower has taken it to a new level the verses never say dont say anything to them that is not what is said. paul mentioned even be reproving them . this no talking to them is not what the bible says. surely there should be no associating with them. another point is the ones handling it are removing people without concern of their repentance that is a violation. but your points are well taken
Paul also said that Abraham, his two wives, two sons, and two Jerusalems, are ALLEGORIES.
never :)
Hi
can you tell me please the denomination that you attend/belong to.Thankyou
I have a very personal question for you but do you have an email for privacy?
I have a question. How can disfellowshipping work when the church has public meetings and the disfellowsipped member keeps coming? How are they to be treated?
You dont stop the person from coming to church. But stop all association with the person. All members included... That's what the bible teaches...
Amen.
That’s a lie. When it mentions not to eat it doesn’t mean food. It’s talking about don’t take the sacrament with this person
hi good sir how are you did 1cor 5 tell us what would be accomplished when someone is disfellowshipped from a church
I know this is not the norm but what about those that married solely for papers and divorce the person? Would the church recognize this as marriage? Would God consider it a marriage?
The Bible is clear that divorce should only be on the grounds of two cases - abandonment (meaning the person completely and totally leaves the spouse for extended period of time and never comes back; leaving for a day or two doesn't count) and adultery.
From my understanding, a legally-authorized marriage between a man and a woman is considered marriage to God. God considers marriage to be very sacred. It's actually a covenant that a man and woman make with God. It should not be something to enter into and exit from as it suits us.
The discipline, if any, would have to be decided by the pastor and elders of the local church. I don't think there is a "cookie cutter" answer to your question in all circumstances.
So those who pay to obtain citizenship by marriage, yet never once lived together but was only trying to circumvent the law is still considered marriage before God?
With all respect and in my opinion, you're spitting in God's face by saying "eh, yeah, technically we are married, but it's just a legal thing. It doesn't mean anything. We're just *disobeying the law* in order to serve my needs!" Really think and pray about it. This, of course, is just my opinion. If the law says you're married, you're married. I don't think a "consummation" is necessary to make it an "actual" marriage. But others might disagree.
Daric, thank you for your opinion but I rather have GOD's opinion. Learn how to be graceful with your speech. You are the classic example of people who claim to know God and yet your choice of words are careless and cold. Jesus said that on the day of judgment, you will give account for every careless word you speak. Be careful! Your opinion is not the word of God. I was hoping for an exchange...preferably with someone who has knowledge of scripture. I am not interested in those who love to voice their opinion. The Bible speaks against people who love to do so in Proverbs 18:2, and it's not good. Show grace, and love. If reproving me is what you have in mind, the Bible also teaches you how to do so:
Colossians 4:6
Let your speech *_always be gracious_*, seasoned with salt, so that you may *know how to answer everyone*.
2 Timothy 2:25
He must *_gently_* reprove those who *_oppose_* him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
Furthermore, you are making an ad hominem/strawman argument. You are making it about me disobeying the law. It's wise not to place judgment base solely on your opinion. Facts matters.
Since you use the "law" argument, I'm going to show you what it states on this matter.
_U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) is a component of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The stated priorities of USCIS are to promote national security, to eliminate immigration case backlogs, and to improve customer services. It is charged with processing immigrant visa petitions, naturalization petitions, and asylum and refugee applications, as well as making adjudicative decisions performed at the service centers, and managing all other immigration benefits functions_
On it's website, it states:
" _USCIS does __*__not_*_ recognize the following relationships as marriages_, *_even if valid in the place of celebration_* : _Relationships entered into for purposes of evading immigration laws of the United States_."
So that should clear the misconception that not all who entered marriage are recognized as such by the government.
Peace be with you!
I summarized scripture without actually quoting it and I am accused of being ungracious...okay. Also, when you ask for an opinion about what God thinks, and then someone tells you what scripture says, and you get upset, whose fault is that? Mine or yours?
There's nothing in the Bible that says a "true" marriage must be consummated or be done with "true intent." Marriage has been and always will be a contract signed between two people. Whether you do it in front of a judge or in a church, it's a marriage.
Only two cases acceptable to God for divorce: adultery (Matthew 5:32, 19:9) and abandonment (1 Cor. 7:15). Nothing about legal papers.
(Matthew 19:8-9): “Jesus said, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
God also specifically says he hates divorce (Malachi 2:16).
Paul also states "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife..." (1 Cor. 7:3-4).
When you get married, what does the minister/judge ask? Paraphrasing, "do you promise to love and cherish this person, in sickness or in health, until death?" If you say yes, knowing that you're only going to do it for about a week before divorcing so you can get a visa or citizenship or something, you're lying.
It also seems you care more about what an earthly government agency, such as the USCIS, says about marriage than what God says. Also, remember that the US government has already redefined marriage to include homosexual marriages, which is clearly forbidden in the Bible. Thus, if you are basing what "marriage" is solely off the judgments of a government, you are already going against God's laws.
Do you *really* care about what God thinks, or do you just want someone to give the answer you're hoping to hear?
Call me a hypocrite or being "ungracious"; I am just quoting God's word. Take it up with Him.
or can u explain the term disfellowshipped
rejection, shunning.
If a person is rejected by the entire congregation for not repenting for their sin, and they are removed from the church, then they are rejected by Christ as well because the church is the body of Christ. There's no more chance of repentance for such a person. This is apostasy spoken of in Hebrews 6:6.
To reiterate, to refuse to repent is to refuse to denounce the sin, which is to renounce the truth which is Christ, which is to crucify Christ afresh. This is a person that has trodden under foot the Son of God spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-29.
John Grytbakk I can respect that you actually provided verses for your argument, but you have to pay close attention to what's being discussed.
Of course Christians are to correct one another in the spirit of meekness, but the subject matter is what's to be done when a person doesn't repent! Titus 3:10
John Grytbakk according to what you know from Scripture,if a person commits a sinful act and doesn't repent even after the first and second admonitions when being confronted by the church, and THEN that person is rejected, does that person have any chance of repentance from then on?
John Grytbakk John Grytbakk my question was does that person have any chance of repentance... NOT "if" he repents. Those are 2 different scenarios.
The reason I had to ask you this question is because I was convinced that you didn't understand my original comment. I'm convinced even more because you didn't understand my question.
What you're saying is true, just like what you've said in the beginning, but it has nothing to do with my comment and so you seem confused and out of place right now. If I'm right then James 3:14-17 may be able to help you
John Grytbakk You say that's all you need to know but the Scriptures speak on this topic much deeper than your understanding obviously which means you aren't fully equipped. How presumptuous of you to indirectly acknowledge that you don't know the answer and have no need or desire to know.
I'll leave you with the words of Jesus: since you say you see, you shall remain blind.
John Grytbakk you've been rejected