Ye mate; absolutely wrecked a few factions I think (mech the worst which were already down) for fixing problems with a couple of powers sadly This was released pre the FAQ but have pinned your post so new people see
29:50 I’m back again. One often-overlooked bonus of Aether-fire cannons is that they don’t have “gets hot” like normal plasma weaponry. Combos really well with a Moritat because he won’t get interrupted by 1s and he can double out characters, and he can provide a good leadership boost to some shooty destroyers who can snipe characters using Corvidae. Here also the Moritat can select a different cult arcana which is the case when a unit can have more than 1. Plus then he can be upgraded to a psyker … the list of stacking rules goes on…
Also, Aether-fire is slightly better for shooting at light vehicles (Rhinos, etc), with the +1S and Rending instead. Getting the S8 is also amazing for shutting off FnP on most models.
Just watched this and have been trying to make my Thousand Sons work. It's been a finnicky and largely joyless experience. Why can't my psychic Praetor take a force weapon? Why do his bodyguards get cooler swords than him? Why am I not able to just laugh other psykers off the board? Why are we not premiere daemon poppers like we are in Siege of Cthonia? Precision shot snipers can reach out and disable my legion rules, which only sometimes go off. With other legions having access to better options more consistently and without stipulations of having to rely on characters. By turn 3, my army doesn't feel like Thousand Sons anymore. They're just 'some fellas'. I think this is baby so far out with bathwater that it's in low orbit. In the debate of trying to decide how good and how reliable psykers should be, it was settled on bad and unreliable and then everyone went for lunch and to buff Imperial Fists. Give my characters force weapons. Let me pay for cult upgrades to my squads and let my legion trait be a casting buff and another thing based on the Warlord's cult. Oh, and make the force weapons you give me the actual force type on attacks. /r
You are paying for how broken they were in 1.0, I think. But I agree. The cult powers are wimpy, AND you have to roll to get them, AND the sarge can be sniped. HH 2.0 has the 10th Edition 40K Eldar Index-at-launch levels of clearly bad balance and design choices.
23:17 The reason you want to direct Perils to the robots is because the robots have Adamantium will. This lets the robots tank the wounds where you'd be killing off models. It doesn't make them amazing, but it's certainly a fun approach. In the **FUTURE** there's now a combo available with Prosperine Guard where you can similarly use auxilla sections to eat the Perils for your wizards.
Sekhmet Terminators with achaean axes aren't really that bad. You mentioned biomancy for the toughness five, but it also gives a point of strength. All together between the axe base strength increase, achaean force, and biomancy they do hit strength eight without having to buy a powerfist. Leadership nine means they get it more reliably than the average Thousand Son squad too so you can pinch points on upgrading them, maybe just a chainfist if you see a lot of land raiders and spartans, and save the points to deck out a command squad with hammers and the like instead
@@claydud271 Each unit can only use each 'power' once per turn but Force is an ability not a power so can be attempted any time an attack with the Force special rule is used. Therefore if you had a Force shooting attack, then assaulted (so the shooting power used was not Heavy, Ordnance or Rapid Fire) and had a Force melee attack, you could attempt Force both times. If a unit has more than one power then it depends on the power and exceptions will be in the description. For example, unless the unit has firing protocols (x)* only a single 'shooting' power can be made in the shooting phase instead of shooting a weapon (as per the 'More than one weapon' rule) and a single melee weapon is selected for all attacks however Pyromantic Desolation is notable because it is used in addition to normal melee attacks. *Firing protocols do not allow a single 'weaponused more than once
Yes been waiting for this one as got 1ksons as my 2nd heresy legion. Excited to hear how rubbish the 3k army I've just started painting is 😅 Thanks for all the great content!
Also about half way through and talking about sekhmet. I don't know if you mention it later but you missed a point I think when talking biomancy. This takes your force Axes to s8 so they then have power fists for 'free' as well as t5 if you take the test
Oh boom I didn’t say it (didn’t even think about it) but it’s a really big shout Actually completely revises my opinion on them, ap 2 and s8 for them as a base is great! I actually think they can be in the top tier if you can pass those psychics, it’s just if you don’t it’s sooo bad… do you back yourself!?!
@Bearfoot Miniatures I've only been doing theoryhammer on my 1ksons so far but it feels fluffy maybe? Gamble and it goes well and they smash or it goes bad and the fleshcurse takes you. However I do agree on the khenetai being a bit rubbish. The fact their power only works when there are no characters and is start of the turn. So if you deep strike or 'decant' from a land raider you can't get the power off. Have a unit cause they look cool but don't expect much.
Enjoying the video and the perspective, when 2.0 dropped my first games were with the Thousand Sons (against Space Wolves in a Prospero themed game and then Fists). I foolishly dumped way too much money into going from a couple characters to a 2,000pt army. It seems to me the XV Legion suffers from the sins of Heresy 1.0. You say librarians are common now - but they're really only common for one power. When your entire legion is psychic, you really want more powers to be viable. The only legion that can lose its trait if it loses a sergeant, with reduced leadership so psychic tests are less reliable, with failed psychic tests guaranteed to hurt the squad (my first shot with my lascannon squad killed two of my marines. Worth it to kill the enemy warlord?), handicaps to unique units like the Khenetai (first model I converted for the army was a champion consul to be Sanakt, only to realize I can't run him with the Khenetai?!), in an army that is the master of psychic powers but can't cast any better than a World Eater or Imperial Fist. In my group I'm going to run the Thousand Sons with a +1 to leadership for psychic tests only, just to make the powers a little more reliable. I'd love to rewrite the psychic powers, but thats a little much. I also wish GW would get on board with harmonizing model ranges. Deathshroud tartaros rules in Heresy, cataphractii plastic models. Sekhmet cataphractii rules, Scarab Occult in tartaros. Easy enough to "counts as" but I wish I didn't have to
I agree and I don’t for a couple of points (I’m not gonna say 1k sons haven’t been hard done to btw, Im more in agreement with you than I’m not) : - deffo their special units need a buff imo -100% the randomness of psychic powers going off makes the army “orky” in its randomness, less good but auto cast legion traits would be better imo - psychic powers are indeed largely shit I do agree with that, biomancy is also crazy good IMO and can lead to insane stacks and interactions - the loss of the sergeant is just a downside, I play lots of games where my opponent doesn’t have tanks I’ve not got a trait (they’re “rare” here as they’re considered weak comparatively), nightlords if someone kills a couple of blokes and they no longer outnumber!
@BearfootMiniatures really good point on legions not getting or losing their traits. I guess it seems different to me that the Thousand Sons already pay a price for their trait - about a third if the time, they're going to kill their own guys. But, doing my own analysis of the legions I play, I'm starting to really appreciate your point more. A lot of traits are highly situational, not everyone is an Ultramarine. Thank you, keep up the good work!
Regarding the Numerologist, don't lose sight of the fact that their +1 BS can be given to nearby Tank/Artillery units that you can't join with a Techmarine to use the Cognis-Signum on
Ta-nks? What are these? Haha Ye it’s a good point, I hadn’t really considered just due to how powerful infantry is this edition we hardly see any around my group (though I’m planning to play some tanky lists myself soon!)
I love playing my Magnus, but he folds to soooooo many of the primarchs. Psykic also has a huge weakness once you are in close combat as most of the powers cannot be cast while in combat. I basically have to play T-Sons as sneaky cowards XD
I think he’s best for a one turn mega charge really then power fades sadly (due to the non charging in combat) I’ll have to defer to your superior numerology discipline, but kiting the opposing deathstar with your +3 move and reacting with overwatch to biomancy when they charge feels the way to go. Especially with the pointed out sekmet axes biomanced to s8!
Unfortunately, unless I'm missing something, they all specifiy only Pinning/Morale tests (in addition the Legion Standard specifically excludes Psychic tests)
This. Having a Master of Signal is basically a must for TS in 2.0 especially in the Guard of the Crimson King. As far as I am aware the psychic test counts as an unmodified leadership test and can leverage the "tactical comms rule". On top of that if you shove the Master of Signals in a unit with your Praetor they can "rebrodcast" their leadership (Ld 10) instead. Makes passing psychic checks much easier.
Cheers mate! My group actually had a convo in relation to when it’s gained if you do it to ferrus blob (damn ferrus blob!) So we came down to the power happens before damage mit and up until the wound goes through it’s one wound (?) that’s been caused so before the models actually taken the wound you gain the toughness I think it could be easily argued the opposing way though as it doesn’t state at what point the actual attack gains ID due to strength in the rule FAQ needed on it I think really just to do it one way or another
I think castellax achea are good but not for combat, especially with achean configuration where they can act as a sort of infrastructure / castle for your psykers, healed by techmarine and supported by flaking units, like a Hammer and Anvil
10:08 you can’t have your Apothecary or Tech marine select a different cult arcana. They must select the same one as the rest of the squad. So no stacking cults (which is a shame). 🤓
This is incorrect as per the FAQ: Q. Can a Thousand Sons model with the Independent Character, Apothecarion Detachment or Techmarine Covenant special rules join or be assigned to a Thousand Sons unit which has a different Prosperine Arcana? A. Yes.
@@ASHRID5150 maybe its GW terrible writing or FAQing but I see this differently because the FAQ question and answer doesn't replace the Cult Arcana Rule. They can pick a different cult arcana but when they join the unit they have to select the same one as the rest of the characters in the unit (i.e. the Sgt or whatever). I THINK this has been written so that you can attach a Techmarine or an Apothecary to the Khenati Blade or Numerologist Cabal without totally fucking them over as their special Arcana requires that all models in the unit have the same Arcana. Because neither a Techmarine nor an Apothecary can select those special ones because they aren't on the default list. Unless I'm wrong then TS can stack multiple cult arcanas in one unit for a measly cost of an Apothecary or Techmarine covenant.
Maybe I am wrong but aren't all power weapons count as force weapons? I mean, you use force instead of Achaen force (with a chance for Perils) and double the strength. Another example is Osiron Dreadnought can just instead utilize force and double to Str18.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 it is stated clearly in the Liber Hereticus pg259 under Achean Pattern weapons: "All weapons listed here are counted as 'Force' weapons for those rules that affect such weapons". Is there any other entry that negates this rule? ...And Happy New Year! :)
@@DsfAttack - Happy New Year! I don't think that gives them the characteristics/stats of normal Force weapons, because why even have the Achean entry then? Rather, they have the "Force" keyword (to use a 40K term), effecting things like WB corrupted units in the same way.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 actually using Achean Force is safer as you don't get perils when you lose leadership test to activate. As rules written, there is option in using normal force or Achean. Looking around the web it seems many people don't get it and I do not blame them, as the "rules as written" are in major need of clarifications (good old GW). My point is that Thousand Sons, although situational (leaderships will let you down many times), are a very powerful "elite" army.
@@DsfAttack They are "Force" weapons for the purposes of other rules that interact with Force (Daemons, etc), but they do not have the Force rule itself (which is where you get 2x S)
@@BearfootMiniatures Achean Force (which is all over the Thousand Sons weapons) is +2S. Force (which you see basically on the lightning power and Librarian Force weapons) is x2S.
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36:09 GW has decreed that fun is not allowed and you can't use "do instead of shooting" abilities during Reactions. Unfortunate.
Ye mate; absolutely wrecked a few factions I think (mech the worst which were already down) for fixing problems with a couple of powers sadly
This was released pre the FAQ but have pinned your post so new people see
@@BearfootMiniatures ofc this is the one comment I had (as a Thousand Sons player) that I didn't mark as from THE FUTURE.
29:50 I’m back again. One often-overlooked bonus of Aether-fire cannons is that they don’t have “gets hot” like normal plasma weaponry. Combos really well with a Moritat because he won’t get interrupted by 1s and he can double out characters, and he can provide a good leadership boost to some shooty destroyers who can snipe characters using Corvidae. Here also the Moritat can select a different cult arcana which is the case when a unit can have more than 1. Plus then he can be upgraded to a psyker … the list of stacking rules goes on…
Also, Aether-fire is slightly better for shooting at light vehicles (Rhinos, etc), with the +1S and Rending instead. Getting the S8 is also amazing for shutting off FnP on most models.
Just watched this and have been trying to make my Thousand Sons work. It's been a finnicky and largely joyless experience.
Why can't my psychic Praetor take a force weapon? Why do his bodyguards get cooler swords than him? Why am I not able to just laugh other psykers off the board? Why are we not premiere daemon poppers like we are in Siege of Cthonia?
Precision shot snipers can reach out and disable my legion rules, which only sometimes go off. With other legions having access to better options more consistently and without stipulations of having to rely on characters. By turn 3, my army doesn't feel like Thousand Sons anymore. They're just 'some fellas'.
I think this is baby so far out with bathwater that it's in low orbit. In the debate of trying to decide how good and how reliable psykers should be, it was settled on bad and unreliable and then everyone went for lunch and to buff Imperial Fists.
Give my characters force weapons. Let me pay for cult upgrades to my squads and let my legion trait be a casting buff and another thing based on the Warlord's cult.
Oh, and make the force weapons you give me the actual force type on attacks.
/r
You are paying for how broken they were in 1.0, I think. But I agree. The cult powers are wimpy, AND you have to roll to get them, AND the sarge can be sniped.
HH 2.0 has the 10th Edition 40K Eldar Index-at-launch levels of clearly bad balance and design choices.
23:17 The reason you want to direct Perils to the robots is because the robots have Adamantium will. This lets the robots tank the wounds where you'd be killing off models. It doesn't make them amazing, but it's certainly a fun approach.
In the **FUTURE** there's now a combo available with Prosperine Guard where you can similarly use auxilla sections to eat the Perils for your wizards.
Sekhmet Terminators with achaean axes aren't really that bad. You mentioned biomancy for the toughness five, but it also gives a point of strength. All together between the axe base strength increase, achaean force, and biomancy they do hit strength eight without having to buy a powerfist. Leadership nine means they get it more reliably than the average Thousand Son squad too so you can pinch points on upgrading them, maybe just a chainfist if you see a lot of land raiders and spartans, and save the points to deck out a command squad with hammers and the like instead
Ooooh that is a pretty dirty stack in the moritat, cleverly done!
In this edition how many times can you cast can the same unit cast force and bio in the same turn?
@@claydud271 Each unit can only use each 'power' once per turn but Force is an ability not a power so can be attempted any time an attack with the Force special rule is used. Therefore if you had a Force shooting attack, then assaulted (so the shooting power used was not Heavy, Ordnance or Rapid Fire) and had a Force melee attack, you could attempt Force both times.
If a unit has more than one power then it depends on the power and exceptions will be in the description. For example, unless the unit has firing protocols (x)* only a single 'shooting' power can be made in the shooting phase instead of shooting a weapon (as per the 'More than one weapon' rule) and a single melee weapon is selected for all attacks however Pyromantic Desolation is notable because it is used in addition to normal melee attacks.
*Firing protocols do not allow a single 'weaponused more than once
Yes been waiting for this one as got 1ksons as my 2nd heresy legion. Excited to hear how rubbish the 3k army I've just started painting is 😅
Thanks for all the great content!
Also about half way through and talking about sekhmet. I don't know if you mention it later but you missed a point I think when talking biomancy. This takes your force Axes to s8 so they then have power fists for 'free' as well as t5 if you take the test
Oh boom I didn’t say it (didn’t even think about it) but it’s a really big shout
Actually completely revises my opinion on them, ap 2 and s8 for them as a base is great!
I actually think they can be in the top tier if you can pass those psychics, it’s just if you don’t it’s sooo bad… do you back yourself!?!
@Bearfoot Miniatures I've only been doing theoryhammer on my 1ksons so far but it feels fluffy maybe? Gamble and it goes well and they smash or it goes bad and the fleshcurse takes you.
However I do agree on the khenetai being a bit rubbish. The fact their power only works when there are no characters and is start of the turn. So if you deep strike or 'decant' from a land raider you can't get the power off. Have a unit cause they look cool but don't expect much.
Oh boy!! Ive been looking forward to this
Hope you enjoy it mate!
Enjoying the video and the perspective, when 2.0 dropped my first games were with the Thousand Sons (against Space Wolves in a Prospero themed game and then Fists). I foolishly dumped way too much money into going from a couple characters to a 2,000pt army.
It seems to me the XV Legion suffers from the sins of Heresy 1.0. You say librarians are common now - but they're really only common for one power. When your entire legion is psychic, you really want more powers to be viable.
The only legion that can lose its trait if it loses a sergeant, with reduced leadership so psychic tests are less reliable, with failed psychic tests guaranteed to hurt the squad (my first shot with my lascannon squad killed two of my marines. Worth it to kill the enemy warlord?), handicaps to unique units like the Khenetai (first model I converted for the army was a champion consul to be Sanakt, only to realize I can't run him with the Khenetai?!), in an army that is the master of psychic powers but can't cast any better than a World Eater or Imperial Fist.
In my group I'm going to run the Thousand Sons with a +1 to leadership for psychic tests only, just to make the powers a little more reliable. I'd love to rewrite the psychic powers, but thats a little much.
I also wish GW would get on board with harmonizing model ranges. Deathshroud tartaros rules in Heresy, cataphractii plastic models. Sekhmet cataphractii rules, Scarab Occult in tartaros. Easy enough to "counts as" but I wish I didn't have to
I agree and I don’t for a couple of points (I’m not gonna say 1k sons haven’t been hard done to btw, Im more in agreement with you than I’m not) :
- deffo their special units need a buff imo
-100% the randomness of psychic powers going off makes the army “orky” in its randomness, less good but auto cast legion traits would be better imo
- psychic powers are indeed largely shit I do agree with that, biomancy is also crazy good IMO and can lead to insane stacks and interactions
- the loss of the sergeant is just a downside, I play lots of games where my opponent doesn’t have tanks I’ve not got a trait (they’re “rare” here as they’re considered weak comparatively), nightlords if someone kills a couple of blokes and they no longer outnumber!
@BearfootMiniatures really good point on legions not getting or losing their traits. I guess it seems different to me that the Thousand Sons already pay a price for their trait - about a third if the time, they're going to kill their own guys. But, doing my own analysis of the legions I play, I'm starting to really appreciate your point more. A lot of traits are highly situational, not everyone is an Ultramarine.
Thank you, keep up the good work!
Regarding the Numerologist, don't lose sight of the fact that their +1 BS can be given to nearby Tank/Artillery units that you can't join with a Techmarine to use the Cognis-Signum on
Ta-nks? What are these? Haha
Ye it’s a good point, I hadn’t really considered just due to how powerful infantry is this edition we hardly see any around my group (though I’m planning to play some tanky lists myself soon!)
It can also apply to Dreads.
I love playing my Magnus, but he folds to soooooo many of the primarchs. Psykic also has a huge weakness once you are in close combat as most of the powers cannot be cast while in combat. I basically have to play T-Sons as sneaky cowards XD
I think he’s best for a one turn mega charge really then power fades sadly (due to the non charging in combat)
I’ll have to defer to your superior numerology discipline, but kiting the opposing deathstar with your +3 move and reacting with overwatch to biomancy when they charge feels the way to go. Especially with the pointed out sekmet axes biomanced to s8!
I think you possibly need to look into consuls or command vehicles which allow you to broadcast your higher leadership to squads
Unfortunately, unless I'm missing something, they all specifiy only Pinning/Morale tests (in addition the Legion Standard specifically excludes Psychic tests)
This. Having a Master of Signal is basically a must for TS in 2.0 especially in the Guard of the Crimson King. As far as I am aware the psychic test counts as an unmodified leadership test and can leverage the "tactical comms rule". On top of that if you shove the Master of Signals in a unit with your Praetor they can "rebrodcast" their leadership (Ld 10) instead. Makes passing psychic checks much easier.
@@bass2trout5860 Unfortunately Strategic Comms explicitly specifies Pinning & Morale
@@ASHRID5150 haha yeah I just looked it up and was going to delete the comment. You are correct.
'Basically a talkie' is how people describe me
You 30k-urious Dave?!
I am very much aware that leadership checks are hard... I find it very hard to roll less than a 12 on 2d6.
I know you do! Get outta here craig!!!
Super cool video. Are you sure that byomancy used as reaction in the sekemeth will affect the id? I think it happens too late for that
Cheers mate!
My group actually had a convo in relation to when it’s gained if you do it to ferrus blob (damn ferrus blob!)
So we came down to the power happens before damage mit and up until the wound goes through it’s one wound (?) that’s been caused so before the models actually taken the wound you gain the toughness
I think it could be easily argued the opposing way though as it doesn’t state at what point the actual attack gains ID due to strength in the rule
FAQ needed on it I think really just to do it one way or another
The TSons would be so much more usable if say magnus was able to cast multiple psychic powers a turn
Magnus being unable to cast two powers a turn or at least increase the AP of his power to AP 3 or further is insane to me.
I think castellax achea are good but not for combat, especially with achean configuration where they can act as a sort of infrastructure / castle for your psykers, healed by techmarine and supported by flaking units, like a Hammer and Anvil
Mate it was crazy I thought it was over turn 1 and came down to the literal end
10:08 you can’t have your Apothecary or Tech marine select a different cult arcana. They must select the same one as the rest of the squad. So no stacking cults (which is a shame). 🤓
This is incorrect as per the FAQ:
Q. Can a Thousand Sons model with the Independent
Character, Apothecarion Detachment or Techmarine
Covenant special rules join or be assigned to a Thousand
Sons unit which has a different Prosperine Arcana?
A. Yes.
@@ASHRID5150 maybe its GW terrible writing or FAQing but I see this differently because the FAQ question and answer doesn't replace the Cult Arcana Rule. They can pick a different cult arcana but when they join the unit they have to select the same one as the rest of the characters in the unit (i.e. the Sgt or whatever). I THINK this has been written so that you can attach a Techmarine or an Apothecary to the Khenati Blade or Numerologist Cabal without totally fucking them over as their special Arcana requires that all models in the unit have the same Arcana. Because neither a Techmarine nor an Apothecary can select those special ones because they aren't on the default list. Unless I'm wrong then TS can stack multiple cult arcanas in one unit for a measly cost of an Apothecary or Techmarine covenant.
In the vein of stacking with characters it’s similar with emperors children and their bio-boosts which bounce across the entire units aswell!
@@bass2trout5860 They can stack them, but you can't benefit from more than one in a phase.
Maybe I am wrong but aren't all power weapons count as force weapons? I mean, you use force instead of Achaen force (with a chance for Perils) and double the strength. Another example is Osiron Dreadnought can just instead utilize force and double to Str18.
This is wrong. Only a Legion Librarian and Legion Esoterist can take normal force weapons, not anyone with psychic powers.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 it is stated clearly in the Liber Hereticus pg259 under Achean Pattern weapons: "All weapons listed here are counted as 'Force' weapons for those rules that affect such weapons". Is there any other entry that negates this rule? ...And Happy New Year! :)
@@DsfAttack - Happy New Year!
I don't think that gives them the characteristics/stats of normal Force weapons, because why even have the Achean entry then? Rather, they have the "Force" keyword (to use a 40K term), effecting things like WB corrupted units in the same way.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 actually using Achean Force is safer as you don't get perils when you lose leadership test to activate. As rules written, there is option in using normal force or Achean. Looking around the web it seems many people don't get it and I do not blame them, as the "rules as written" are in major need of clarifications (good old GW). My point is that Thousand Sons, although situational (leaderships will let you down many times), are a very powerful "elite" army.
@@DsfAttack They are "Force" weapons for the purposes of other rules that interact with Force (Daemons, etc), but they do not have the Force rule itself (which is where you get 2x S)
Force just adds 2 not double right ?
The 1k sons force adds 2 but regular doubles I believe(?) I’ll check!
@@BearfootMiniatures Achean Force (which is all over the Thousand Sons weapons) is +2S. Force (which you see basically on the lightning power and Librarian Force weapons) is x2S.