This is purely a theoretical question but I was working on some alt history ideas and wanted your opinion as an engineer. Do you think it would be possible to make a carrier version of the Vickers Wellesley? It's a fantastically long ranged aircraft with a decent payload and I was curious if a folding wing version could fit on royal navy carriers for use as a anti submarine and recon aircraft. It does have a very large wingspan however so I wasn't sure it was even possible to fit one on any royal navy carrier elevator even with a hypothetical folded wing setup
What is the science/alchemy of naming ships in the Royal Navy? I understand the thinking behind the US Navy with battleships after states, cruisers after cities, etc. But how do the British do it? And has the reasoning changed over the years?
@@roykliffen9674 I’d say it’s the other way around: the ex-British ships needed to become the namesakes of far better ships than any of the inefficient, horribly designed, obsolete-upon-launch and pretty much pointless garbage from the Kriegsmarine surface fleet.
Considering that Whimbrel is still around (as a training ship in Egypt) and subject to a preservation campaign, I post it here in the hopes that more folks will come to know of her and the preservation campaign will succeed. Whimbrel is the last surviving British warship that was present in Tokyo Bay on 2nd September 1945 at the Japanese surrender in World War 2. She was sold to Egypt in 1954, and still serves as a training ship based in Alexandria. In fact, she went in for a drydock period just last year, which seems to suggest she is still in good shape (albeit partially disarmed). Her preservation would be a fitting tribute to those who fought in the little ships on either side during the Battle of the Atlantic. Here's hoping that we will have Whimbrel preserved for future generations.
I’m hoping that the new naval heritage centre on the Clyde, which is bringing back HMS Ambuscade of the Falklands war, will also eventually gain Whimbrlel, as she was a Clyde built ship as well. Whimbrel has an impressive list of Honors for such a small ship, more so than even HMS Belfast. Unfortunetly the sticking point seems to be, the unreasonable price the Egyptians keep giving. Sicily, 1943 Atlantic 1943-44 Normandy 1944 English Channel 1944 Arctic 1944 Okinawa 1945
Mostly because they were the ones that actually did things, whereas with things like WWII-era battleships it MOSTLY comes down to whether they did nothing while at sea (for the allegedly useful and “active” ones) or did nothing while in port.
Many years ago I read a book called 'Yankee RN', by Alex Cherry, an American banker who joined the Royal Navy as an officer before the USA entered the war. He spent his war on North Atlantic convoy duty, and was ultimately (I think) First Lieutenant in the Black Swan class sloop HMS Wren, one of the vessels in Capt Walker's Second Escort Group. Unfortunately I no longer have the book, but I remember a vivid memoir of life at the sharp end, serving in one of these ships.
I saw the Scharnhorst during a visit at the Bundesmarine in Neustadt/Holstein in the 1980s. Did not know until today i actually saw a british mermaid. Thank you, Drach!
Surprised you didn’t mention HMS Whimbrel, which was transferred to Egypt around 1950 and amazingly still survives today, in largely original condition! Efforts to save the ship have been ongoing for years to no avail sadly.
Black Swan sunk U-124 (using Hedgehog), one of Germany’s more successful boats with two skippers curing their ‘sore throat’ (getting a knights cross for sinking over 100,000tonnes) aboard her, ‘Willie’ Schultz and Jochen Mohr.
A huge effort went into trying to save HMS Whimbrel by the Battle of the Atlantic team and bring her to Liverpool where she does belong, especially as it was the HQ of Western Approaches, that still exists as a museum, has the statue to Cap Walker at Pier Head, and U534 at Birkenhead. Also the WATU, where the Wrens trained Convoy Escort Officers in the Tactical Unit at Derby House, right by HQ Western Approaches, last year commemorated by HRH Princess Anne. In 2014, I believe the last attempt was unsuccessful due to cost of buying Whimbrel from the Egyptians. Can’t remember the asking price, but I seem to remember it about the cost of a semi- detached house in the SE! But the project cost of bringing her back on a heavy lift ship, dry dock & repairs, berthing in Canning Dock, interpretation & museum fitting out, was £7-8 million. Some preparation and hull strengthening would have to be done in Alexandria first, the heavy lift ship to bring her back is relatively straightforward, I think the cost was £1 million? But I heard talk of a Dutch company offering a discount because of her wartime connections with convoys? I don’t know how correct that is. Costs today will have obviously increased. There was Heritage Lottery funding available originally when brought home to Liverpool. Asbestos would have to be removed. She’s virtually in original status from the end of the Pacific war where she was at the VJ surrender in Tokyo Bay. And she’s not a huge warship! Entirely manageable as a most historical Royal Navy warship from the longest conflict of WWII - The Battle of the Atlantic.
I've been waiting for an episode on the Black Swan class for ages, thanks for getting around to it. My late father served on HMS Wren post war, and was standard bearer for the HMS Wren Association until it was disbanded as the surviving members were too few and too old continue. Wren had been part of Walkers flotilla during WW2.
Every time I listen to these and you're counting down what's left, I'm always sad when it comes to sold for scrap, hoping one still exists. Thank you for your amazing videos.
I think this is one of the rare cases where the UK equivalent of a class is more heavily armed (even thought lighter!). You are right though, touring the Taney (technically "WHEC-37" now) is probably as close as you're going to get to the feel of that sort of ship.
@@chs76945 During WW2 Taney initially had 3 and later added a 4th Five inch 38 cal. The most of her class of 7 ships total. As well as numerous anti aircraft weapons and depth charge racks. The class was built specific for the CG and her sister ships were Hamilton, Duane, Ingham, Spencer, Bibb and Campbell. I served aboard Taney from 1980 to '82 . During those two years we made 8 large drug busts and breached the eye of Hurricane Jeanne in Nov. 1980 in the Gulf of Mexico. And as far as I am concerned, her name will always be Roger B Taney!
Heard of Black Swan warships class. Nice video of this class, a work horse ship. A convey type ship, I'd forgotten about Walker and the war against the U- Boat.. Thanks
This is based on world of warships 'knowledge' but by far this was and still is the best tier 1 ship. Can keep up with tier 2 if AP shells were available in game. Those pair of forward mounts with twin guns are super op when charging ahead.
Have you considered a programme about the WW2 naval support vessels called "Victualling Inshore Craft" - VICs - of which around 100 were built to support the Navy by the Ministry of War Transport. They saw service in Malta, Singapore, Scapa Flow, Rosyth, etc
Looking at the pictures from 4:43 onwards: what strikes me is that the average age of the crew seems to be considerably older than what you see from - lets say - the crew of RMS Bismark or the like. A large number of faces clearly seem to be of men in their late 30's and mid 40's and only a few would pass as being around 26, which to my knowledge was the average age of fighting men in WW2. Is there a reason for that?
Fabulous ships, long overdue this overview - surprisingly! Many thanks, Drach. - To compare with the American DEs and to summarise; that was a *37* ship class, which sank *31* U-boats - an extraordinary tally for the investment and worth every penny spent for certain - and moreover hung around into the Cold War to give continued service. Meanwhile, the significantly larger DE programme had yielded the 'Captain' class for the RN - valuable units to swell the escort and A/S force during wartime - but these were virtually all scrapped or returned by around 1947, and they were all new-build ships in 1943; an incredibly short service life by comparison. A higher price-tag and a longer build time for each Black Swan-class sloop, but this is the lesson; quantity has a quality of its own, but it's not necessarily *high* quality overall.
The Black Swans were good U Boat hunters due to their relatively large hull, long endurance and good seakeeping abilities, far better than either the long and narrow destroyers or the tub like corvettes. However they were "real" warships and costly to build compared to corvettes and frigates.
I enjoyed your earlier video on the battle ship Alabama. Could you do a video on the confederate raider CSS Alabama? I believe it was constructed in England.
When I was young I always dreamt of acquiring one of these ships as my personal yacht, a proper little warship, traveling the world. Of course the cannon would fire great clouds of tinsel!
Looking at those Crow's Nest. I don't know which is the worst experience? Having to stand watch in one of those things in a heavy sea? Or getting the dose of radiation from the radar?
Thank you so much covering the Black Swan class. I think these small vessels get overlooked by many. I wonder if you haven't done so if you would cover the smaller American warships of WW2 and their relation to their British counterparts.
I have a photo of the blackswan in dry dock taken by my granddad. Nothing about the date but I think it would have been 47 I thinks as its in line with the photos of the Theseus (R64) His records have him serving onboard from Dec 31st 1946 - Nov 8th 1947
F 213 Scharnhorst actually got quite the modernisation during her time in service with the West German Navy. Her old twin 102 mm guns got replaced with two French 100 mm automatic guns and her Oerlikons replaces with four 40 mm Bofors.
I have a Drydock question. Are there superstitions around naming ships after past ones? The naming of Scharnhorst in this class caught my attention. Not knowing much about this, I would think naming a ship after a past one that was sunk would not be viewed favorably by the crew?
In the RN there was - at least at one time - a superstition about naming ships after snakes, when several such ships were lost in a relatively brief period of time.
That's probably something that differs between Navies. However many Navies do have a selection of traditional historic names that do often get re-used no matter the fate of any predecessor. Ships companies do take a sense of pride in the list of battle honours associated with the history of their ship's name.
My first knowledge of this class was through reading the biography of Captain Frederick Walker, RN, the most successful anti-submarine commander of WW2 - died on duty while commanding the anti-submarine operations in the channel covering Overlord.
Hi Drach, was wondering if it would be possible to cover the shallow draft River gunboat as I have always been interested in the since reading Douglas Reemans Singapore tale , The pride and the anguish.
My Father was transferred to this ship in 1945 after serving in EG5 in the Atlantic. He only made it to Malta though, had to leave her when he needed an operation, then the war ended!
When are you going to do the Royal Navy's equivalent of USS England? HMS Icarus? She was Captained by Colin Maud, who was played by Kenneth Moore in The Longest Day.
After 1945, many of the Sloops were reclassified as Frigates to allow for the Royal Navy to keep a high number of 'Fleet' Frigates on paper, there was no real difference between the types of ship after 1944, as Sloops became primarily ASW vessels
You forgot the former HMS Whimbrel, which was last seen in the Egyptian Navy in the late 2010s. Her fate is unclear. There was a move to try and buy her and tlretern her to the UK but this plan seems to have evaporated. You also made no mention of Amethyst, of the Yangtse incident.
@@ScienceChap Yes she did . HMS Magpie played the moving shots of HMS Amethyst as Amethyst herself was laid up at the time . My Father was in the Navy and serving on HMS Magpie at the time .
Hey drach long time watcher and subscriber. Do you have plans of doing a video on the zara or zara class cruisers. I cant seem to find if you did one and i dont see it on the to do list pdf on the website. Thank you :)
Drach, this is a small thing, but is there any way that you could balance the introduction's volume to match the rest of the episode? One of the biggest issues for me with putting your videos on playlists of mine is that introduction, which is incredibly loud when compared to the rest of a regular episode, I have noted this for years. I know you've had this intro for a long time and this may be a bad ask, but I just wanted to give it a shot.
i wish the same pragmatism involved in the production of these ships existed today in the commonwealth, admittedly in the age of missiles it is difficult and more costly to implement but this class of shit has undeniably high effectiveness per $ and can fulfill a much needed role in almost any naval mission.
Canadians debated between the corvettes, standard destroyers and Tribals, when war began. I always wondered why this class wasn't seemingly considered.
The RCN evolved pretty quickly into an ASW navy. The flower-class corvettes were the ship class that could be built and manned quickly enough, on both sides of the Atlantic, to provide at least one escort vessel for continuous escort from port to port. The RCN was able to supplement the corvettes with some of the four-stackers transferred from the USN to the RN and then to the RCN. The sloops would have been a great addition to the RCN's ASW capability, but IIRC, the entirty of the building capacity for the sloops was taken by the RN and other commitments. Sloops were built to RN standards as warships, which meant a longer construction period and fewer yards capable of building them. As an alternative, the twin-screw corvette design was developed, and this became the frigate. The frigate had much better ASW capability than the corvette, not as good as the sloop, perhaps, but could also be built in Canada, and built rapidly. Canadian yards could also build the Castle-class Corvette, and a number of these saw service in the RCN. The Tribals were used as ASW vessels too, but as the size and capability of the RCN grew dramatically through 1943, the Tribals tended to work more as they were designed to, as a "sea superiority" role in hunting Axis (i.e. German-crewed) destroyers, torpedo boats, and similar class vessels. The RCN was rapidly developing a cruiser-light carrier capability for the Pacific war, and if it had extended into 1946, I reckon the tribals would have been used as a fleet screen for whatever the RCN could field. I'm sure if the shipyard capacity to build sloops surplus to RN requirements (and existing commitments, like the Indian navy) had existed, the RCN would have gladly obtained them. However, the frigates provided near-enough ASW capability to the sloops, and could be built faster and cheaper to meet an immediate demand.
You didn't mention HMS Whimbrel, as far as I know, still in existence and laid up in Alexandria. Has been the subject of repeated attempts to buy her from the Egyptian government for restoration and preservation, but so far unsuccessful.
So...this is basically the Royal navy doing what i do in Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts when the TBs are soon to become obsolete: built a TB that is big but low on armament and with everything at minimum, and then use it as minesweeper/layer and antisub ship and upgrade it with the times
It seems strange to me that even as late as 1990 when the Germans were looking at scrapping her that the Royal Navy would not have been interested in acquiring a 50+ year old WWII ship, was there any effort to preserve her and restore her to WWII configuration or even at this point was it simply not something that garnered enough interest?
I wish that the RN would take a leaf out of the German navy's book (ridiculous as a 1,200 ton Scharnhorst sounds). As our navy contracts, the only capital ships we have are the two carriers and four (maybe three) Dreadnought SSBNs. But there are so many fantastic, evocative, historic names we could use on the Type 31s, 32s and 83s, it might be type to reconsider the alphabet derived name series.
I was a little surprised to hear that the four ships transferred to the West German Navy were given names of ships from WW2. They'd have been a bit more "politic" to have not used such loaded reminders...
Well, the German Navy used to have Guided Missile Destroyers who's lead ship is named after Admiral Lutjens and the rest of her class were named after Werner Molders and Erwin Rommel. The Deutsche Marine does not care lmao
Its because they refer to distinguished men from the period pre 1933 (whatever one might think of them). What I personally found more problematic was the naming of one Bundesmarine vessel by the name "Rommel".
@@JosipRadnik1Rommel was executed (he chose suicide to the piano wire) on the orders of Hitler after the bomb plot failure. Considered to be Army not Nazi
@@alun7006not sure which names you are referring to. The 4 ships transferred to the Germans all were given names of German ships in WWII and the other names in the comments relating to other German vessels all were of folk who served in WWII.
@@weldonwin YEAH 👍 I really wish people would stop dogging the Kamchatka,, they did the best they could with a bunch of farmers and miners for a crew who couldn't even tell the difference between fishing trawlers and Japanese torpedo boats....
@@micnorton9487 No, out of an entire fleet of conscript farmers, the crew of the Kamchatka stand out as being singularly incompetent and being the reason Admiral Roseszvensky straight up had nervous breakdown at one point.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Where did the idea renaming ships is bad luck start?
This is purely a theoretical question but I was working on some alt history ideas and wanted your opinion as an engineer. Do you think it would be possible to make a carrier version of the Vickers Wellesley? It's a fantastically long ranged aircraft with a decent payload and I was curious if a folding wing version could fit on royal navy carriers for use as a anti submarine and recon aircraft. It does have a very large wingspan however so I wasn't sure it was even possible to fit one on any royal navy carrier elevator even with a hypothetical folded wing setup
Can you explain Black Swan Events? (Please laugh..)
What was the fate of the Japanese pilots who survived the Battle of Midway?
What is the science/alchemy of naming ships in the Royal Navy? I understand the thinking behind the US Navy with battleships after states, cruisers after cities, etc. But how do the British do it? And has the reasoning changed over the years?
There's something really funny about former Royal Navy vessels being renamed after Graf Spee, Scharnhorst, Scheer and Admiral Hipper
Yeah it made me smile
@@Calum_S Me too.
I find it actually quite sad. Whatever you may find of the regime, those ships deserved more formidable successors.
Does this mean that Germans really do have a sense of humour
@@roykliffen9674
I’d say it’s the other way around: the ex-British ships needed to become the namesakes of far better ships than any of the inefficient, horribly designed, obsolete-upon-launch and pretty much pointless garbage from the Kriegsmarine surface fleet.
Considering that Whimbrel is still around (as a training ship in Egypt) and subject to a preservation campaign, I post it here in the hopes that more folks will come to know of her and the preservation campaign will succeed.
Whimbrel is the last surviving British warship that was present in Tokyo Bay on 2nd September 1945 at the Japanese surrender in World War 2. She was sold to Egypt in 1954, and still serves as a training ship based in Alexandria. In fact, she went in for a drydock period just last year, which seems to suggest she is still in good shape (albeit partially disarmed).
Her preservation would be a fitting tribute to those who fought in the little ships on either side during the Battle of the Atlantic. Here's hoping that we will have Whimbrel preserved for future generations.
Getting her out of Egypt will be the biggest hurdle
I would like to like this twice, but it won't let me 😢
Oh wow. Time to bug someone rich to start a campaign.
I second that motion!!! 🤠👍
I’m hoping that the new naval heritage centre on the Clyde, which is bringing back HMS Ambuscade of the Falklands war, will also eventually gain Whimbrlel, as she was a Clyde built ship as well. Whimbrel has an impressive list of Honors for such a small ship, more so than even HMS Belfast. Unfortunetly the sticking point seems to be, the unreasonable price the Egyptians keep giving.
Sicily, 1943
Atlantic 1943-44
Normandy 1944
English Channel 1944
Arctic 1944
Okinawa 1945
Beautiful ships - how about a video on Walker and 2nd Escort Group?
I 2nd this. Have an upvote.
@@kurgisempyrion6125 Thanks
I've suggested it before as well. Sounds a capital idea.
These and the Abdiels are my favorites of the war. @@kurgisempyrion6125
Aye, mate. Agreed. The unsung hero of the Western Approaches.
It's coming. Be patient
The grand names the West German chose for those 4 little ships are absolutely hilarious !:-)
imagine if west germany had gotten ahold of all 6 and named them bismarck and tirpitz
They also got three Hunt class - Raule, Brommy and Gneisenau (can't have a Scharnhorst without a Gneisenau).
“Grand”
The last ships to bear those names were absolute disasters that shouldn’t have been built.
I find these videos about very small vessels just as, if not often more fascinating than the capital ships. Keep up the great work.
Mostly because they were the ones that actually did things, whereas with things like WWII-era battleships it MOSTLY comes down to whether they did nothing while at sea (for the allegedly useful and “active” ones) or did nothing while in port.
@bkjeong4302 No, I do not agree with that assessment at all.
These small vessels I'd all the work and sinkings
Graf Spee, Hipper, Scheer and Scharnhorst. Oh how the mighty have fallen. 😂😂😂
It's not the size of the dog in the fight.
It's the size of the fight in the dog.
Had it not been you, I would’ve thought the second ship was named Hitler rather than Hipper😅
Right? The idea that those names went to Brit-made war surplus DDEs is hilarious. Makes me wonder what they named Bismark and Tirpitz.
@@chs76945 Nothing. Those names were never reused.
Many years ago I read a book called 'Yankee RN', by Alex Cherry, an American banker who joined the Royal Navy as an officer before the USA entered the war. He spent his war on North Atlantic convoy duty, and was ultimately (I think) First Lieutenant in the Black Swan class sloop HMS Wren, one of the vessels in Capt Walker's Second Escort Group. Unfortunately I no longer have the book, but I remember a vivid memoir of life at the sharp end, serving in one of these ships.
This class is the perfect example of value for money: it doesn't have an A-rated specification but is still fit for purpose.
I saw the Scharnhorst during a visit at the Bundesmarine in Neustadt/Holstein in the 1980s. Did not know until today i actually saw a british mermaid. Thank you, Drach!
Surprised you didn’t mention HMS Whimbrel, which was transferred to Egypt around 1950 and amazingly still survives today, in largely original
condition! Efforts to save the ship have been ongoing for years to no avail sadly.
I would love you to do a video on the Yangtze Incident and HMS Amethyst.
Black Swan sunk U-124 (using Hedgehog), one of Germany’s more successful boats with two skippers curing their ‘sore throat’ (getting a knights cross for sinking over 100,000tonnes) aboard her, ‘Willie’ Schultz and Jochen Mohr.
U124 actually ranks as the 4th most successful uboat of the entire war, behind U48, U123 and U99.
Nasty little piece of work. I've always loved small but absurdly heavily armed ships.
Nice to see something on the Black Swan class, my dad served on Starling under Captain Walker, something he was very proud of
My Dad also was on Starling too under walker working in the magazine area.
@@ch1970mc my dad was a cook, though I don’t know what else he might have done as well
My low key favourite "different" ship class and one i have waited years for Drach to cover! Thank you!
This is a certified black swan event
Natalie, Mila and me.
Can't wait for your video on HMS Nutcracker and HMS Sleeping Beauty.
HMS Rat King 🤷🏼♂️
And after that, HNoMS Peer Gynt
So now we’ve a guide on the Black Swan class, could we perhaps get an episode on the Amethyst Incident please?
Drach will have to try to dissuade himself from covering too much about Simon
Saturday night and we are always spoilt with a 5 Minute Guide abd a Drydock!!
A huge effort went into trying to save HMS Whimbrel by the Battle of the Atlantic team and bring her to Liverpool where she does belong, especially as it was the HQ of Western Approaches, that still exists as a museum, has the statue to Cap Walker at Pier Head, and U534 at Birkenhead. Also the WATU, where the Wrens trained Convoy Escort Officers in the Tactical Unit at Derby House, right by HQ Western Approaches, last year commemorated by HRH Princess Anne. In 2014, I believe the last attempt was unsuccessful due to cost of buying Whimbrel from the Egyptians. Can’t remember the asking price, but I seem to remember it about the cost of a semi- detached house in the SE! But the project cost of bringing her back on a heavy lift ship, dry dock & repairs, berthing in Canning Dock, interpretation & museum fitting out, was £7-8 million. Some preparation and hull strengthening would have to be done in Alexandria first, the heavy lift ship to bring her back is relatively straightforward, I think the cost was £1 million? But I heard talk of a Dutch company offering a discount because of her wartime connections with convoys? I don’t know how correct that is. Costs today will have obviously increased. There was Heritage Lottery funding available originally when brought home to Liverpool. Asbestos would have to be removed. She’s virtually in original status from the end of the Pacific war where she was at the VJ surrender in Tokyo Bay. And she’s not a huge warship! Entirely manageable as a most historical Royal Navy warship from the longest conflict of WWII - The Battle of the Atlantic.
I'll try and keep her in mind if I win the lottery. Got a few historic ships I hope to help if that happens 😂
EvenI have almost forgotten the old intro! The new one works imo. Cheers from GC Australia.
Glad to see this one. My father served on board HMS Mermaid / Scharnhorst.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
I've been waiting for an episode on the Black Swan class for ages, thanks for getting around to it. My late father served on HMS Wren post war, and was standard bearer for the HMS Wren Association until it was disbanded as the surviving members were too few and too old continue. Wren had been part of Walkers flotilla during WW2.
The Dirty Ducks are one of my favorite classes. The "capital ships" of the Escort Force
it's always nice to hear about a ship class with a lot of success and longevity.
Every time I listen to these and you're counting down what's left, I'm always sad when it comes to sold for scrap, hoping one still exists. Thank you for your amazing videos.
But... Whimbrel remains (at least for now )!
Excellent!
Saturday lunchtime viewing sorted
Makes me think of the USCG's 327 foot Treasury Class Cutters like the CGC Taney moored in Baltimore Harbor
I think this is one of the rare cases where the UK equivalent of a class is more heavily armed (even thought lighter!). You are right though, touring the Taney (technically "WHEC-37" now) is probably as close as you're going to get to the feel of that sort of ship.
@@chs76945 During WW2 Taney initially had 3 and later added a 4th Five inch 38 cal. The most of her class of 7 ships total. As well as numerous anti aircraft weapons and depth charge racks. The class was built specific for the CG and her sister ships were Hamilton, Duane, Ingham, Spencer, Bibb and Campbell. I served aboard Taney from 1980 to '82 . During those two years we made 8 large drug busts and breached the eye of Hurricane Jeanne in Nov. 1980 in the Gulf of Mexico. And as far as I am concerned, her name will always be Roger B Taney!
Thanks!
Heard of Black Swan warships class. Nice video of this class, a work horse ship. A convey type ship, I'd forgotten about Walker and the war against the U- Boat.. Thanks
This is based on world of warships 'knowledge' but by far this was and still is the best tier 1 ship. Can keep up with tier 2 if AP shells were available in game. Those pair of forward mounts with twin guns are super op when charging ahead.
Have you considered a programme about the WW2 naval support vessels called "Victualling Inshore Craft" - VICs - of which around 100 were built to support the Navy by the Ministry of War Transport. They saw service in Malta, Singapore, Scapa Flow, Rosyth, etc
Looking at the pictures from 4:43 onwards: what strikes me is that the average age of the crew seems to be considerably older than what you see from - lets say - the crew of RMS Bismark or the like. A large number of faces clearly seem to be of men in their late 30's and mid 40's and only a few would pass as being around 26, which to my knowledge was the average age of fighting men in WW2. Is there a reason for that?
Honestly feels like a stretch. Hard to tell ages from those photos alone
Possibly could be the result of being crewed by members of the Reserves (RNVR) and recalled RN Reservists.
Life at sea will weather you a bit. Baking sun, bitter cold, salt air.
Wow, this class seems to have punched above its weight in terms of kills to losses.
Much awaited, much appreciated looking forward to excellent insights as always from you.
Fabulous ships, long overdue this overview - surprisingly! Many thanks, Drach.
-
To compare with the American DEs and to summarise; that was a *37* ship class, which sank *31* U-boats - an extraordinary tally for the investment and worth every penny spent for certain - and moreover hung around into the Cold War to give continued service. Meanwhile, the significantly larger DE programme had yielded the 'Captain' class for the RN - valuable units to swell the escort and A/S force during wartime - but these were virtually all scrapped or returned by around 1947, and they were all new-build ships in 1943; an incredibly short service life by comparison.
A higher price-tag and a longer build time for each Black Swan-class sloop, but this is the lesson; quantity has a quality of its own, but it's not necessarily *high* quality overall.
Its a beautiful ship.
The Black Swans were good U Boat hunters due to their relatively large hull, long endurance and good seakeeping abilities, far better than either the long and narrow destroyers or the tub like corvettes. However they were "real" warships and costly to build compared to corvettes and frigates.
Small ships but full of fight and punched above their weight in terms of losses Vs kills
Tough little ships. ^^
I did not expect this video.
I enjoyed your earlier video on the battle ship Alabama. Could you do a video on the confederate raider CSS Alabama? I believe it was constructed in England.
Already been done.
There is just something a bit extra about a ship that just 'looks right', and this class is one that does.
British ship designs in the 1930s were *beautiful*.
@@alun7006 I'd have to agree - those I have seen certainly seem to be!
When I was young I always dreamt of acquiring one of these ships as my personal yacht, a proper little warship, traveling the world. Of course the cannon would fire great clouds of tinsel!
Looking at those Crow's Nest. I don't know which is the worst experience? Having to stand watch in one of those things in a heavy sea? Or getting the dose of radiation from the radar?
Love these botes. Thanks Drach.
Graf Spee and Hipper shrunk a bit after the war I see
pretty sure you'd shrink too if you got hit by a couple nukes
Thank you so much covering the Black Swan class. I think these small vessels get overlooked by many. I wonder if you haven't done so if you would cover the smaller American warships of WW2 and their relation to their British counterparts.
Surprised HMS Amethyst of the Yangtse incident is not mentioned
I have a photo of the blackswan in dry dock taken by my granddad. Nothing about the date but I think it would have been 47 I thinks as its in line with the photos of the Theseus (R64)
His records have him serving onboard from Dec 31st 1946 - Nov 8th 1947
A review of The Scott class of destroyer leaders would be nice to see.
F 213 Scharnhorst actually got quite the modernisation during her time in service with the West German Navy. Her old twin 102 mm guns got replaced with two French 100 mm automatic guns and her Oerlikons replaces with four 40 mm Bofors.
F 213 Scharnhorst as War Thunder event vehicle when, Gaijin??
I have a Drydock question. Are there superstitions around naming ships after past ones? The naming of Scharnhorst in this class caught my attention. Not knowing much about this, I would think naming a ship after a past one that was sunk would not be viewed favorably by the crew?
Guess PoW is in trouble if that were the case...🤣
Scharnhorsts were sunk in both WWI (Falklands) and WWII(Norway). At least this one was scrapped.
In the RN there was - at least at one time - a superstition about naming ships after snakes, when several such ships were lost in a relatively brief period of time.
@@jester5ify And Queen Elizabeth...
That's probably something that differs between Navies. However many Navies do have a selection of traditional historic names that do often get re-used no matter the fate of any predecessor. Ships companies do take a sense of pride in the list of battle honours associated with the history of their ship's name.
Sound like great value for the money.
Thank you for this.
☮
How about the Secretary class specifically CGC Taney?
I'm a simple man. I see a Drachinifel video, I click.
2009 called, it wants it's meme back 😉
@@pommunist It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out.
@@WulfgarOpenthroat hehehe It was a bad guess then. Oh well...
My first knowledge of this class was through reading the biography of Captain Frederick Walker, RN, the most successful anti-submarine commander of WW2 - died on duty while commanding the anti-submarine operations in the channel covering Overlord.
Awesome thanks
Another survivor to the mid 60s was HMS Erne, which became HMS Wessex, the base for the Southampton division of the Royal Naval Reserve.
Hi Drach, was wondering if it would be possible to cover the shallow draft River gunboat as I have always been interested in the since reading Douglas Reemans Singapore tale , The pride and the anguish.
You can play Black Swan in World of Warships as the Tier 1 British vessel.
My Father was transferred to this ship in 1945 after serving in EG5 in the Atlantic. He only made it to Malta though, had to leave her when he needed an operation, then the war ended!
When are you going to do the Royal Navy's equivalent of USS England? HMS Icarus? She was Captained by Colin Maud, who was played by Kenneth Moore in The Longest Day.
ooh a sloop
There it is.
She sloops to conquer...
Especially considering how many U'boats they sunk!!!
No mention of HMS Amethyst and the Amethyst Incident? 😊
That's for its own video :)
@@Drachinifel excellent! I’m sure it’ll be brilliant with your customary research and knowledge. My Dad knew John Kerans.
@@Drachinifelcan't wait. I scratch built a model of Amethyst as a teenager. Still got it...
I always understood HMS Amethyst was a modified Black Swan class "frigate"?
After 1945, many of the Sloops were reclassified as Frigates to allow for the Royal Navy to keep a high number of 'Fleet' Frigates on paper, there was no real difference between the types of ship after 1944, as Sloops became primarily ASW vessels
You forgot the former HMS Whimbrel, which was last seen in the Egyptian Navy in the late 2010s. Her fate is unclear. There was a move to try and buy her and tlretern her to the UK but this plan seems to have evaporated.
You also made no mention of Amethyst, of the Yangtse incident.
I knew about Whimbrel (and it's uncertain fate) but i forgot about Amethyst, that was the ship that Simon the Seacat lived on
Yay morning boats!!!
My grandfather served on Opossum 😊
Ha that answers my question what is the difference between a sloop and a frigate?
Entirely depends on which navy you ask, and when.
The Royal Navy really needs to have a ship named the Black Pearl :)
Yes, but can we have a 'Black Pig' first... 😜😀
@@johncunningham6928As long as it's captain pugwash in charge.....
Interesting fact .. a modified Black Swan class frigate HMS Magpie played HMS Amethyst in the film Yangtse incident in 1957
No she didn't. Amethyst played herself not long before she was scrapped.
@@ScienceChap Yes she did . HMS Magpie played the moving shots of HMS Amethyst as Amethyst herself was laid up at the time . My Father was in the Navy and serving on HMS Magpie at the time .
Hey drach long time watcher and subscriber. Do you have plans of doing a video on the zara or zara class cruisers. I cant seem to find if you did one and i dont see it on the to do list pdf on the website. Thank you :)
A yes, Classic tier 1 ship in WoWS
Out of curiosity, what did such small ships in escort duty do with all those 4" guns?
Hunt surfaced U-boats I guess
Drach, this is a small thing, but is there any way that you could balance the introduction's volume to match the rest of the episode?
One of the biggest issues for me with putting your videos on playlists of mine is that introduction, which is incredibly loud when compared to the rest of a regular episode, I have noted this for years. I know you've had this intro for a long time and this may be a bad ask, but I just wanted to give it a shot.
Yeah me too . Too loud at the start I always skip to 34 secs.
Britain has so many ships that it could name one "woodpecker"....
Two I think because I believe that the Spite in Warspite is an old name for a woodpecker.
I didn't realise just how sophisticated sense of humour was possessed by the Germans....
It boggles my mind that we didn't preserve at least one of this class. Especially since there were so many examples that survived.
Hearing about sloops makes me think of the Beach Boys...
i wish the same pragmatism involved in the production of these ships existed today in the commonwealth, admittedly in the age of missiles it is difficult and more costly to implement but this class of shit has undeniably high effectiveness per $ and can fulfill a much needed role in almost any naval mission.
Canadians debated between the corvettes, standard destroyers and Tribals, when war began. I always wondered why this class wasn't seemingly considered.
The RCN evolved pretty quickly into an ASW navy. The flower-class corvettes were the ship class that could be built and manned quickly enough, on both sides of the Atlantic, to provide at least one escort vessel for continuous escort from port to port. The RCN was able to supplement the corvettes with some of the four-stackers transferred from the USN to the RN and then to the RCN. The sloops would have been a great addition to the RCN's ASW capability, but IIRC, the entirty of the building capacity for the sloops was taken by the RN and other commitments. Sloops were built to RN standards as warships, which meant a longer construction period and fewer yards capable of building them. As an alternative, the twin-screw corvette design was developed, and this became the frigate. The frigate had much better ASW capability than the corvette, not as good as the sloop, perhaps, but could also be built in Canada, and built rapidly. Canadian yards could also build the Castle-class Corvette, and a number of these saw service in the RCN. The Tribals were used as ASW vessels too, but as the size and capability of the RCN grew dramatically through 1943, the Tribals tended to work more as they were designed to, as a "sea superiority" role in hunting Axis (i.e. German-crewed) destroyers, torpedo boats, and similar class vessels. The RCN was rapidly developing a cruiser-light carrier capability for the Pacific war, and if it had extended into 1946, I reckon the tribals would have been used as a fleet screen for whatever the RCN could field.
I'm sure if the shipyard capacity to build sloops surplus to RN requirements (and existing commitments, like the Indian navy) had existed, the RCN would have gladly obtained them. However, the frigates provided near-enough ASW capability to the sloops, and could be built faster and cheaper to meet an immediate demand.
You didn't mention HMS Whimbrel, as far as I know, still in existence and laid up in Alexandria. Has been the subject of repeated attempts to buy her from the Egyptian government for restoration and preservation, but so far unsuccessful.
Surprised you didn’t mention HMS Amethyst and Able SeaCat Simon.
So...this is basically the Royal navy doing what i do in Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts when the TBs are soon to become obsolete: built a TB that is big but low on armament and with everything at minimum, and then use it as minesweeper/layer and antisub ship and upgrade it with the times
You didn't mention HMS Amethyst.
Not sure I’d feel too happy being a German sailor on a ship named Scharnhorst.
No mention of the loss of HMS Lapwing to a German U-boat in March 1945.
Great concept ignoring other classes doing the same thing existed at mercantile standards. They looked great though. Just a weird stop gap.
It seems strange to me that even as late as 1990 when the Germans were looking at scrapping her that the Royal Navy would not have been interested in acquiring a 50+ year old WWII ship, was there any effort to preserve her and restore her to WWII configuration or even at this point was it simply not something that garnered enough interest?
I wish that the RN would take a leaf out of the German navy's book (ridiculous as a 1,200 ton Scharnhorst sounds). As our navy contracts, the only capital ships we have are the two carriers and four (maybe three) Dreadnought SSBNs. But there are so many fantastic, evocative, historic names we could use on the Type 31s, 32s and 83s, it might be type to reconsider the alphabet derived name series.
I was a little surprised to hear that the four ships transferred to the West German Navy were given names of ships from WW2. They'd have been a bit more "politic" to have not used such loaded reminders...
Well, the German Navy used to have Guided Missile Destroyers who's lead ship is named after Admiral Lutjens and the rest of her class were named after Werner Molders and Erwin Rommel. The Deutsche Marine does not care lmao
Its because they refer to distinguished men from the period pre 1933 (whatever one might think of them). What I personally found more problematic was the naming of one Bundesmarine vessel by the name "Rommel".
@@JosipRadnik1Rommel was executed (he chose suicide to the piano wire) on the orders of Hitler after the bomb plot failure. Considered to be Army not Nazi
They aren't WW2 names.
@@alun7006not sure which names you are referring to. The 4 ships transferred to the Germans all were given names of German ships in WWII and the other names in the comments relating to other German vessels all were of folk who served in WWII.
I'm so early for this video that the Kamchatka still has all its binoculars...
Holy crap that s an achievement 😂👍
STILL dogging the Kamchatka...
It wasn't the Kamchatka that was losing binoculars, it was the Admiral, throwing binoculars AT The Kamchatka
@@weldonwin YEAH 👍 I really wish people would stop dogging the Kamchatka,, they did the best they could with a bunch of farmers and miners for a crew who couldn't even tell the difference between fishing trawlers and Japanese torpedo boats....
@@micnorton9487 No, out of an entire fleet of conscript farmers, the crew of the Kamchatka stand out as being singularly incompetent and being the reason Admiral Roseszvensky straight up had nervous breakdown at one point.
Once I had dwelt on lakes, once I had been beautiful, when I was a swan. Poor wretch! Now black and well roasted!
I know is english ship, but look strange the U60, U57 on the side :)
5:28 The West German navy didn't have much creativity in their ship naming, did they?
Frigate class!!
I would have some foreboding about being assigned to a ship named "Black Swan".
Especially if you were on the China Station.