In an earlier Drydock episode you mentioned that a hypothetical Alaska with 5×3 8" 10 rpm guns would make for a better heavy cruiser killer than the historical 3×3 12" Alaska. What would be the best arrangement of these five turrets, 3-stacked superfiring front and two superfiring aft like Venezia in WoWS, the layout used on the Brooklyns/Myokos/Takaos or that of the Mogamis/Ibuki?
What is the meaning of Life (boats)? Seriously, when were lifeboats for passengers first (required to be) added to ships? Age of Sail? Early steam paddlewheelers? Screw driven steamers? 18th, 19th or 20th Centuries? The Titanic famously didn't have enough lifeboats. What was the evolution of life boat regulations?
Somebody messing up in the rear and causing headache on the frontline seems to be a recurring issue in navies (BuOrd failures with torpedo being one example that comes to mind). Has anyone actually ever been held accountable for such things, in cases of sheer incompetence or refusal/failure to rectify the problems? Either straight up court-martialed for reasons like dereliction of duty, or relieved of their positions for something along the line of "loss of confidence" the USN uses today.
Speaking of names, I kinda wonder what actually was the Royal Navy naming convention. They seem to pick any names started with the same letter for the same class of destroyer and some classes of cruisers. But other larger cruiser like Armored were not followed the pattern, battleships and battlecruisers were also did not look like they followed any rules (except those named after the crowned kings and queens).
And the Hunt class Escort Destroyers were preceded by the Hunt class Minesweeping Sloops in the Kaiser War.. Tedworth, Aberdare, Albury, Alresford, Bagshot, Derby, Dundalk, Dunnon, Elgin, Fareham, Fermoy, Harrow, Huntly, Lydd, Pangbourne, Ross, Saltash, Saltburn, Selkirk Stoke, Sutton and Wednes stuck around for the rematch. Doomba returned from civilian life and Fitzroy, Flinders and Kellet, converted to sureying vessels returned to sweeping. Saltash should not be confused with Monserrat's fictional Saltash Castle, a corvette
I thought the distinction between sloops and corvettes was that corvettes were designed to be built by civillian yards so shouldn't both classes be corvettes?
An interesting comparison with the Algerine class housekeepers inWW11 might be worth discussing. I served on HMS PICKLE in the 1950 s and found it to be a very good newsworthy ship .
My maths teacher, Mr Sykes , was cook on HMS Alisma. He faced the frozen north. uboats. Junkers 88 attacks. He was able to fight through all those horrible things, and then in 1982 he met 2BA . A second year class of Yorkshire high school kids. The class mocked him, berated him, made his life hell. They disrespected him. They laughed openly in his face. They didn't learn any maths. They enjoyed his lessons because they could take the piss out of a veteran. Rest in peace Sir. You were better than all of them.
My grandfather was a RNVR officer in command of an auxiliary minesweeper flotilla in the North Sea. He was awarded the MBE for rescuing the crew of a air attack damaged vessel and resisting seven such attacks. King George VI presented his insignia in 1943. My grandfather did not survive the war.
Imagine the sheer courage and guts necessary to sail in one of the newer flower class ships. The stunning bravery necessary to enter a Portsmouth pub with HMCS Pansy on your cap band as a Canadian sailor knowing full well the viscous battle about to commence. Possibly even before the first pint or two has been sunk.
It's a bit like the Canadian Army the regiment the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry. Very few people insulted the name twice as the men were not only quite proud of their unit but the two Lady Patricia's who served as their Honorary Colonel in Chief were quite well liked.
Remember words change their meanings over time. "Pansy" as a derogatory slur, according to my O.E.D. (the proper 10kg paper version) is very much a post-WW1 meaning. It seems to have 1st been used as meaning "effeminate" in about mid 1920-s, and as a gay-slur possibly post WW2. In fact the alternate meanings relevant at the time of this ship are either "someone who thinks a lot" or even "a remarkable or outstanding person"
If the last example of this class could be saved and turned into a museum it’s a worthwhile adventure. The number of ships from this period in existence is so small.
how can a vessel that saw service all the way back in WWI be scrapped in the last 25 years? that seems absolutely criminal. I really hope that Saxifrage gets restored to her wartime glory.
Wonderful. I love these - Not Top of the Line' guides you do. There is only 1 Warspite, or Hood or etc but these vessels are just as important to be reminded of.
I attended a school graduation party on HMS President (1918) when she was still moored on the Thames. A nice little ship, and I hope she gets restored to her post.
I remember seeing Chrysanthemum slowly being broken up on the river Medway near Rochester bridge and it appeared in one of the Indiana Jones films shortly before the dismantling started.
I have a recommendation for a ship to review, HMS Vimiera, has a personal appeal as my uncle was onboard when it hit a mine in the Thames estuary in ww2, a large percentage of the crew didn't survive unfortunately, I believe the ship was part of the Dunkirk evacuations (the actor who played Godfrey in dad's army was amongst those who were saved by her)
Thanks Drach I never knew about these 1st Flower class and they were very interesting. The speed which they were built at sounds amazing and shows just how massive were the UK's ship building muscles
Presumably one of these ships was HMS Wallflower, which on 8th May 1918 sank U-32 with all hands (41) off Malta one week after that U-boat had sunk ss Era of Melbourne off Cape Tenes, Algeria with the loss of 12 lives including my great uncle.
My wife's great uncle served on HMS Begonia which disappeared with all hands in Sept 1917 off the coast of NW Africa. His name is inscribed on the Portsmouth memorial.
@@well-blazeredman6187 I can't help but wonder if that was a triumph; getting the last warship kill of the war, or an embarrassment, needing a whole U-boat to torpedo a paddle steamer. Either way, I can't help but feel like they weren't getting many drinks at der pub off of that one.
HMS President was the headquarters ship for the London Division of the RNVR and later the RNR. An interesting point was that at one time all naval personnel had to be on the books of a ship, so all those at the Admiralty in London were on the books of President for pay and victualling. She must had more senior officers than any squadron of capital ships.
I believe this was also the case for the Royal Naval Air Service. For a number of years the London Branch of the Cross & Cockade International Society (now the uninspiringly named Great War Aviation Society) appropriately held regular monthly meetings on HMS President . At one point during the centenary commemorations of WW1 the ship received a ridiculous "dazzle scheme" paintwork designed no doubt by some trendy artist, one could almost sense her days were numbered. I do hope something can be done to preserve her, though to return her to a proper WW1 appearance would I think take a lot of effort as she had been significantly modified for more peaceful purposes over the years.
Thank you for all your hard Work Drach! if i may ask, could we get a Video talking about German navel dual purpose gun development? Why some succeed and why others did not make the Cut or work out? (150mm) I got the idea from your Video comparing the AA guns of other nations.
I'm surprised the Marine Nationale bought some ships, but perhaps I shouldn't be. The bulk of the fighting was on french territory and all available resources and factories were probably diverted to support the army.
Then you'd be surprised to know that JAPAN of all countries built several (around a dozen ???) torpedo boats/destroyers for the Marine Nationale. As you've stated correctly, France focussed on on land war things, much like Russia in WW2. Also, many important naval sub-contractors found themselves behind German lines. Astonishingly, France also had to supply the USA with equipment, ranging from machine guns to tanks and aircraft. I don't know why the topic of French industry in WW1 is so greatly overlooked. In 1939, France also started to build 4 Flower class corvettes according to British design, which due to certain events entered service with the Kriegsmarine in 1943 (as PA-1 to 4) and saw brief action in the Channel as convoy escorts. Due to other certain events, the German AA defence was a lot (and I mean A LOT) stronger than on their British counterparts.
Actually, the MN built a number of interesting sloop (or aviso) classes during the war to complement these. They were very much focused on the anti-blockade and escort role, outside of fighting a few surface actions in the Adriatic and Med.
Also mind that French ports were responsible for a lot of the ship maintenance work being done. It was desirable to minimize the number of French slipways being occupied by new ships being built so they could be used to repair existing ships. The British could build more and better ships of all kinds to start with, so it was wiser to let the British do the building while the French helped keep the ships that had to come to their ports to offload for the Western Front in the best shape possible.
Interesting, I have 3 pictures of a vessel used out of Ireland for anti submarine patrols, one is a watercolour of the M/Y Pioneer before being commanded, the next is a watercolour of HMS Pioneer now wearing 'grey funnel line' paintwork with the addition of a dummy funnel & a gun, the 3rd is a photo of her dressed overall on 11-11-1918., the frame of which was made from part of some railings damaged by fire. They were done by the radio operator, I was told that the Dummy funnel was placed there because they had been mistaken for a submarine. She was built as a private yacht with 2 x 250 BHP Polar engines 168 ft LOA, 24.5 ft beam & 9.6 ft draught, capable of 13.5 knots.
#BringBackSloops I've been a huge proponent of a large number of sloop sized base hull modular mission types for smaller allied navies like Australia to contribute niche roles to the big boy(s) like America nii-san and UK- otou-san.
I think something about the vessels of the maritime arms of the other services might be interesting. The RAF used to have a marine craft section which included its famous Air Sea Rescue boats for example and the Army continues to operate Port & Maritime regiments with a variety of craft. Could make some interesting videos that are different but still related to the channel.
Forgive me if you have already done so, if you can describe the difference between sloops, corvettes and frigates in the Royal Navy. Also how it relates to small USN warships during the same period. Thank you.
A quick shorthand for the WW2 RN: Corvette - Single screw low speed small Warship, often used for or specialised in anti submarine Warfare. Similar to larger USN subchasers or small DE's. Often built to merchant hull spec for quick construction. Frigate - Twin screw escort ships, smaller than the fleet destroyer, faster than a corvette with a more rounded armament. Comparable to most US DE's Sloop - General purpose small slow escort built to military spec.
Would you do an episode on the trawlers and drifters of WW1, and their work? The drifters' use on net-barrages was fascinating to me. A lot like siege warfare on the water.
A quick google search would suggest the French opted to name their flowers after *les étoiles*; if names like Aldébaran, Antares, Rigel, and Cassiopée are anything to go by
I just think of the siren call/screech of a group of ladies in my local town center some years ago, "Flowers are lovel;y!" (they were, at least, trying to sell bunches of flowers).
I would just like to humbly announce, that, not only was mine the one thousandth like, but that there are, or were, members of this class moored along the River Thames. 🙂
Foxglove and Rosemary were used for escort work in Home waters until 1943, when they joined Lupin in harbor service. Cornwallis served as an escort in the RIN until 1944, when she became a training vessel. Four others were training hulks.
Foxglove was bombed in Sandown bay off the isle of Wight 9th July 1940 and was so badly damaged she was used as an accommodation ship and was scrapped at the end of the war. My father was serving on her at the time of the bombing and was badly injured and lost a leg.
Surely a wealthy nation such as the United Kingdom could buy the last remaining sloop, discharge the docking charges and restore her to her WWI glory..
@@skimbo1407 .. Understand your skepticism, we in Australia have the same issue, and we are about to join your Nuclear Sub Club with subs built by you.. Maybe.. But you are a wealthy nation, it’s the manner of spending is the problem, again like us.. Saving a naval sloop and restoring it and then exhibiting it would be a community thing well worth the effort.. Bobbington Tank Museum and Duxford Museum are excellent examples of how Britain can do the job.. I envy you your museums..
Have you done a vid, about all the differnt parts of a ship? Ideally with drawings, to explain what and where deck armour is, what the citadel is. I think I have an idea about what and where they are but it would be nice, to be clarified
6:01 18 *or* 19 would be sunk during the war? I can't help but think there's a good story behind that one-ship uncertainty. Was the 19th one sunk *just* at the final whistle, so people aren't sure whether it counts as a wartime loss or not? Did one disappear with no definitive cause of loss? Or is this another example of the infamous "sunk vs. scuttled" debate?
If it's the only one of its class left it needs to be preserved as a museum ship to show a significant Evolution in naval warfare there are only three ships that I am aware of from the World War 1 error gorgeous Azeroth USS Texas that light Cruiser that served as a training ship that served up until 2010..
Scrapped because of unpaid docking fees?? What next? I'm sorry sir but we're going to scrap your one of a kind Jagdtiger because you have an unpaid parking ticket!
I cannot believe in this era of increased appreciation for naval history that the UK will scrap another last remnant of an important ship class. A tragedy if it happens.
Changed their appearance so they didn't look so threatening? iirc, when Sheer's recon plane spotted convoy HX 84, it reported the convoy was unescorted. In reality, it's only escort was Jervis Bay, a converted liner. As it happened, there was a group of four ex-US DDs that were also en route to the UK, from Halifax, traveling separately. It crosses my mind that, if those four DDs had left Halifax with HX 84, Sheer may have gone off looking for easier prey.
It would be nice if you included some information about how it must have been onboard for the lowly sailors, films like The Cruel Sea and In Which We Serve give some idea for corvettes, but otherwise, the lad's conditions are ignored.
Considering that they British "emergency" ships built at ludicrous speed and with a budget consisting of whatever loose change was found in the 1st Sea Lord's couch cushions, it couldn't have been great.
Did you read the booked it's based on? Highly likely that you will be riveted. As far as I can see a nearly unique look into the lives and experiences of those sailors that went to sea in small ships.
'Cruel Sea' author Nicolas Monsarrat also wrote three accounts of his own experiences, on which "The Cruel Sea" was partly based. They were originally published during the war as "HM Corvette", "East Coast Corvette" and "Corvette Command" and republished post-war in one volume as "Three Corvettes" (still available on-line).
@@Trek001 Thank you! Has this been there since 1992? I think it was...as I vaguely recall trying to convince my new bride that we NEEDED to tour that ship...on our honeymoon in Nova Scotia. 🤣
I think I asked for this, so thank you. Very interesting. CHRYSANTHEMUM appeared in 'Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade', trying to squish Indy Jones and the glamorous Dr Schneider, in Tilbury Docks/Venice.
I don't get why the Royal Navy will reuse a name for a class. Imagine being told that you were assigned to a Flower class, learning all about it, and then finding out you were put on a sloop instead of a corvette.
I thought they changed the name of HMS Pansy to something else? Not exactly sure, but I think that no one liked the idea of being assigned to a ship named "Pansy". And that it was poor for morale. But on the other hand can you imagine a U-boat Captain having to say his ship was sunk by HMS Pansy? I forget exactly which "Drydock" it was where Drach was talking about the two guys in the ship naming dept where one guy was giving ships sort of soft & pathetic names & the other guy giving them strong & fearful names. But somewhere in one of those Drydocks it seems like I remember the name being changed. Although I'm not exactly sure & if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time. And if you think about it pansies & tulips are usually the first to bloom. So there is that, but it always reminds me of Monty Python's "The Holy Grail" scene where the Black Knight has lost his arms & legs & he's still wanting to fight. And yells at them "Come back here you Pansy, I'll bite your legs off!" So the name does seem to carry a certain "softness" to it.
@@kennethdeanmiller7324 we're still yet to see HMS Pansy becuase it kept getting the name changed before laungh for exactly the reasons you've stated, and kept getting re-added to the list of posable names because people found it very funny to sugest.
If i was on a ship, and was challenged by "HMS Cucumber Sandwich," i would run. There's no way they'd name a ship anything like that unless it was death on the waves... ^-^
When we have to watch public money being spent/wasted on the stupidest of things then it would be obscene for President to be lost, she should belong to the country and incorporated into the Chatham historic fleet.
Hunh, I thought you covered the Flowers. I read "The Cruel Sea" when I was in high school, _many_ years ago (ahem), and have always nursed a deep interest in the vessels and the heroes that went to sea in them. Oh, so much for my reading for content. Sigh.
@@AndrewTBP I guess not everyone is up to their reading for content skills. You might give the courtesy of rereading my comment and sea what you might have missed.
Probably a "River" class. Another popular source whenever the RN needed to name a lot of ships, fast. Iirc there's currently a River class in service, a class of offshore patrol vessels, if my memory isn't completely shot. Although for some reason they keep forgetting to name a ship after the river that flows through York. It's quite a substantial one, too...called the Ouse 🤔
"Aw *bree* sha" Is this class the first time we see a dedicated Admiralty design being prepared for commercial yards to construct? I think so... Jane's noted that the use of the Q-ship versions was very dangerous work - being a decoy for U-boats was something which would work under the old cruiser rules, but with unrestricted warfare starting in 1916, they were always going to be little more than targets which could then counter-attack - *if* they survived the initial attack, that is (unless they spotted the periscope first). Brave crews who manned these ones. The RN also commissioned the 'Racecourse' class of paddle minesweeper during the Great War - and some of these actually returned for war duty in 1939, again sweeping mines.
Many ship names of the RN might stoke fear and dismay into the hearts of the King's enemies, like Terror, Revenge and Conqueror. And then we have HM Ships Buttercup, Pansy and Petunia.
Me hearing "Erebus class": Wait, there was a class of sloop that shared the name of the monitor? After a little bit of confused surface scratching: Oh. Nope, Arabis class. Odd way of pronouncing it, but whatever.
Best name - WW2 corvette HMCS Wetaskiwin (after a town) - always pronounced as "Wet Ass Queen". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Wetaskiwin#/media/File:HMCS_Wetaskawin_badge_O-893-556.jpg
One wonders how much less painful the Royal Navy's experience in the Second Great War would have been if they had actually built all the small ships they were allowed to under treaty (the no-limits on
Imagine this today! A country with more money than Russia yet having 20% of the ships and arsenal of that poorer country. Yet Parliament could overcome its precious fiscal scruples to print 400 billion pounds to fund lockdowns, and has zero problems funding lots of stupid stuff. Britain could build and man a hundred corvettes (the British designed Khareef class are essentially light frigates) as well as 20 or more SSKs. A hundred missile attack craft would also be easily affordable. A revitalized navy capable of fielding three fleets would have no shortage of volunteers, and if volunteers were still short there seem to be plenty of Gurkha's and others always willing to join up. Moreover the benefit to Britain's industrial base would be huge.
Certainly has merits for the Royal Navy to make a serious stab at claiming the #2 slot for naval power and padding that margin such that there is no questioning the Royal Navy's position. Getting a bunch of cheap sloops into the water would be a great start to get the economy of scale going and train up reserves. @@robruss62
Pinned post for Q&A :)
In an earlier Drydock episode you mentioned that a hypothetical Alaska with 5×3 8" 10 rpm guns would make for a better heavy cruiser killer than the historical 3×3 12" Alaska. What would be the best arrangement of these five turrets, 3-stacked superfiring front and two superfiring aft like Venezia in WoWS, the layout used on the Brooklyns/Myokos/Takaos or that of the Mogamis/Ibuki?
Any idea how much those dock fees are for her??
What is the meaning of Life (boats)?
Seriously, when were lifeboats for passengers first (required to be) added to ships?
Age of Sail? Early steam paddlewheelers? Screw driven steamers?
18th, 19th or 20th Centuries?
The Titanic famously didn't have enough lifeboats. What was the evolution of life boat regulations?
Somebody messing up in the rear and causing headache on the frontline seems to be a recurring issue in navies (BuOrd failures with torpedo being one example that comes to mind).
Has anyone actually ever been held accountable for such things, in cases of sheer incompetence or refusal/failure to rectify the problems? Either straight up court-martialed for reasons like dereliction of duty, or relieved of their positions for something along the line of "loss of confidence" the USN uses today.
Which was the last warship to use steadying sails?
When you used up all the cool names for your big ships so you look outside your window for inspiration
Speaking of names, I kinda wonder what actually was the Royal Navy naming convention.
They seem to pick any names started with the same letter for the same class of destroyer and some classes of cruisers. But other larger cruiser like Armored were not followed the pattern, battleships and battlecruisers were also did not look like they followed any rules (except those named after the crowned kings and queens).
I always named my ships when playing games in the Civilization series. I once had so many I just gave them numbers instead.
Did they ever re-use HMS BEN-MY-CHREE ?...
They ought have !!
🚬😎👍
Yea
I dig the idea of Letter classes but flowers Rose Dandelion Daisy Orchid
Me: weren't the flower class corvettes?
Drach: Before the famous WW2 corvettes...
Me: Ah, that explains that.
And the Hunt class Escort Destroyers were preceded by the Hunt class Minesweeping Sloops in the Kaiser War.. Tedworth, Aberdare, Albury, Alresford, Bagshot, Derby, Dundalk, Dunnon, Elgin, Fareham, Fermoy, Harrow, Huntly, Lydd, Pangbourne, Ross, Saltash, Saltburn, Selkirk Stoke, Sutton and Wednes stuck around for the rematch. Doomba returned from civilian life and Fitzroy, Flinders and Kellet, converted to sureying vessels returned to sweeping. Saltash should not be confused with Monserrat's fictional Saltash Castle, a corvette
I thought the distinction between sloops and corvettes was that corvettes were designed to be built by civillian yards so shouldn't both classes be corvettes?
@@nathanbrown8680 No, your assumption is WRONG
An interesting comparison with the Algerine class housekeepers inWW11 might be worth discussing. I served on HMS PICKLE in the 1950 s and found it to be a very good newsworthy ship .
Why is I tube so bad at spelling?
My maths teacher, Mr Sykes , was cook on HMS Alisma. He faced the frozen north. uboats. Junkers 88 attacks. He was able to fight through all those horrible things, and then in 1982 he met 2BA . A second year class of Yorkshire high school kids. The class mocked him, berated him, made his life hell. They disrespected him. They laughed openly in his face. They didn't learn any maths. They enjoyed his lessons because they could take the piss out of a veteran.
Rest in peace Sir. You were better than all of them.
My grandfather was a RNVR officer in command of an auxiliary minesweeper flotilla in the North Sea. He was awarded the MBE for rescuing the crew of a air attack damaged vessel and resisting seven such attacks. King George VI presented his insignia in 1943. My grandfather did not survive the war.
Imagine the sheer courage and guts necessary to sail in one of the newer flower class ships. The stunning bravery necessary to enter a Portsmouth pub with HMCS Pansy on your cap band as a Canadian sailor knowing full well the viscous battle about to commence. Possibly even before the first pint or two has been sunk.
If I remember correctly there was a ship to be named Pansy but it was changed for some reason at the last minute...
It's a bit like the Canadian Army the regiment the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry. Very few people insulted the name twice as the men were not only quite proud of their unit but the two Lady Patricia's who served as their Honorary Colonel in Chief were quite well liked.
Beware the man with cauliflower ears who wears a pink shirt.
With all that booze around, fights in pubs can indeed be quite viscous.
Remember words change their meanings over time.
"Pansy" as a derogatory slur, according to my O.E.D. (the proper 10kg paper version) is very much a post-WW1 meaning. It seems to have 1st been used as meaning "effeminate" in about mid 1920-s, and as a gay-slur possibly post WW2.
In fact the alternate meanings relevant at the time of this ship are either "someone who thinks a lot" or even "a remarkable or outstanding person"
I hope President can be saved. I used to make a point of walking past her every day when I lived nearby.
It was a standard target for lens tests in Amateur Photographer magazine, long long ago. Sniff, lament.
Sloop, there it is!
I can't believe you slooped to that level
🎶Who let the Sloops out? 🎶 WHO WHO WHO WHO 🎶
burning coal burning coal
I see what you did there 😂
Hang on, sloopy...
If the last example of this class could be saved and turned into a museum it’s a worthwhile adventure. The number of ships from this period in existence is so small.
how can a vessel that saw service all the way back in WWI be scrapped in the last 25 years? that seems absolutely criminal. I really hope that Saxifrage gets restored to her wartime glory.
Wonderful. I love these - Not Top of the Line' guides you do. There is only 1 Warspite, or Hood or etc but these vessels are just as important to be reminded of.
I attended a school graduation party on HMS President (1918) when she was still moored on the Thames. A nice little ship, and I hope she gets restored to her post.
I remember seeing Chrysanthemum slowly being broken up on the river Medway near Rochester bridge and it appeared in one of the Indiana Jones films shortly before the dismantling started.
So THATs what that ship was! - I went to a couple of parties on that ship moored on the Thames in the 1990s.
So you're saying you went Whoop on Sloop?
@@b1laxson I used to say I got Destroyed on a Destroyer - I now I know it was a sloop
@@32shumble Too funny! I used to get high on a real cruiser!
I have a recommendation for a ship to review, HMS Vimiera, has a personal appeal as my uncle was onboard when it hit a mine in the Thames estuary in ww2, a large percentage of the crew didn't survive unfortunately, I believe the ship was part of the Dunkirk evacuations (the actor who played Godfrey in dad's army was amongst those who were saved by her)
Thanks Drach
I never knew about these 1st Flower class and they were very interesting.
The speed which they were built at sounds amazing and shows just how massive were the UK's ship building muscles
Presumably one of these ships was HMS Wallflower, which on 8th May 1918 sank U-32 with all hands (41) off Malta one week after that U-boat had sunk ss Era of Melbourne off Cape Tenes, Algeria with the loss of 12 lives including my great uncle.
More interesting dazzle schemes.
Always a good day with drachinifel enciclopedia.
Indeed correct, sir.
My wife's great uncle served on HMS Begonia which disappeared with all hands in Sept 1917 off the coast of NW Africa. His name is inscribed on the Portsmouth memorial.
Also in this minesweeper role were the Ascot/Racecourse Class, the Royal Navy's last purpose built paddle steamers.
HMS ASCOT was the last Royal Navy ship lost in WW1, falling victim to a U-boat the day before the Armistice.
@@well-blazeredman6187 I can't help but wonder if that was a triumph; getting the last warship kill of the war, or an embarrassment, needing a whole U-boat to torpedo a paddle steamer. Either way, I can't help but feel like they weren't getting many drinks at der pub off of that one.
HMS President was the headquarters ship for the London Division of the RNVR and later the RNR. An interesting point was that at one time all naval personnel had to be on the books of a ship, so all those at the Admiralty in London were on the books of President for pay and victualling. She must had more senior officers than any squadron of capital ships.
I believe this was also the case for the Royal Naval Air Service. For a number of years the London Branch of the Cross & Cockade International Society (now the uninspiringly named Great War Aviation Society) appropriately held regular monthly meetings on HMS President . At one point during the centenary commemorations of WW1 the ship received a ridiculous "dazzle scheme" paintwork designed no doubt by some trendy artist, one could almost sense her days were numbered. I do hope something can be done to preserve her, though to return her to a proper WW1 appearance would I think take a lot of effort as she had been significantly modified for more peaceful purposes over the years.
Thanks!
Maybe the surviving vessel needs a 5-minute guide and gofundme?
Can you imagine “HMS Drachinifel…”?
Providing "first commands" for a swath of officers!
Sloop….if his cuppa was too hot, my Grandfather used to pour his tea into the saucer and drink it from there. This was the noise he made.
Thank you for all your hard Work Drach!
if i may ask, could we get a Video talking about German navel dual purpose gun development? Why some succeed and why others did not make the Cut or work out? (150mm)
I got the idea from your Video comparing the AA guns of other nations.
I'm surprised the Marine Nationale bought some ships, but perhaps I shouldn't be.
The bulk of the fighting was on french territory and all available resources and factories were probably diverted to support the army.
Then you'd be surprised to know that JAPAN of all countries built several (around a dozen ???) torpedo boats/destroyers for the Marine Nationale.
As you've stated correctly, France focussed on on land war things, much like Russia in WW2. Also, many important naval sub-contractors found themselves behind German lines.
Astonishingly, France also had to supply the USA with equipment, ranging from machine guns to tanks and aircraft. I don't know why the topic of French industry in WW1 is so greatly overlooked.
In 1939, France also started to build 4 Flower class corvettes according to British design, which due to certain events entered service with the Kriegsmarine in 1943 (as PA-1 to 4) and saw brief action in the Channel as convoy escorts. Due to other certain events, the German AA defence was a lot (and I mean A LOT) stronger than on their British counterparts.
The US supplied 100 110 foot wooden subchasers to France.
Actually, the MN built a number of interesting sloop (or aviso) classes during the war to complement these. They were very much focused on the anti-blockade and escort role, outside of fighting a few surface actions in the Adriatic and Med.
Also mind that French ports were responsible for a lot of the ship maintenance work being done. It was desirable to minimize the number of French slipways being occupied by new ships being built so they could be used to repair existing ships. The British could build more and better ships of all kinds to start with, so it was wiser to let the British do the building while the French helped keep the ships that had to come to their ports to offload for the Western Front in the best shape possible.
One wonders if a squadron of this class (or the later WW2 corvettes) was ever referred to as a “bouquet”.
With HMS Garland as the leader.
Interesting, I have 3 pictures of a vessel used out of Ireland for anti submarine patrols, one is a watercolour of the M/Y Pioneer before being commanded, the next is a watercolour of HMS Pioneer now wearing 'grey funnel line' paintwork with the addition of a dummy funnel & a gun, the 3rd is a photo of her dressed overall on 11-11-1918., the frame of which was made from part of some railings damaged by fire. They were done by the radio operator, I was told that the Dummy funnel was placed there because they had been mistaken for a submarine. She was built as a private yacht with 2 x 250 BHP Polar engines 168 ft LOA, 24.5 ft beam & 9.6 ft draught, capable of 13.5 knots.
#BringBackSloops I've been a huge proponent of a large number of sloop sized base hull modular mission types for smaller allied navies like Australia to contribute niche roles to the big boy(s) like America nii-san and UK- otou-san.
Pay your bills! Thanks for the history! I didn't know there was also a WW1 Flowers class, lol. Now I'll search for your WW2 Flowers class.
... Bunch a' Flowers!
I think something about the vessels of the maritime arms of the other services might be interesting. The RAF used to have a marine craft section which included its famous Air Sea Rescue boats for example and the Army continues to operate Port & Maritime regiments with a variety of craft. Could make some interesting videos that are different but still related to the channel.
Forgive me if you have already done so, if you can describe the difference between sloops, corvettes and frigates in the Royal Navy. Also how it relates to small USN warships during the same period. Thank you.
A quick shorthand for the WW2 RN:
Corvette - Single screw low speed small Warship, often used for or specialised in anti submarine Warfare. Similar to larger USN subchasers or small DE's. Often built to merchant hull spec for quick construction.
Frigate - Twin screw escort ships, smaller than the fleet destroyer, faster than a corvette with a more rounded armament. Comparable to most US DE's
Sloop - General purpose small slow escort built to military spec.
Drach, can you make videos about individual German uboats classes of WW1? The types U81, U87 and U93 were all excellent designs.
Would you do an episode on the trawlers and drifters of WW1, and their work?
The drifters' use on net-barrages was fascinating to me. A lot like siege warfare on the water.
If they can’t save President, they should at least map/photo/video her and save a digital or even virtual reality version of her.
Perhaps sponsored by some naval themed online game
@@comentedonakeyboard It is kind of sad and hilarious that video games have done more to preserve and provide history education than many governments.
Thanks Drach.
A quick google search would suggest the French opted to name their flowers after *les étoiles*; if names like Aldébaran, Antares, Rigel, and Cassiopée are anything to go by
I will admit they are fun at low teir
i hope that ship will be saved
I just think of the siren call/screech of a group of ladies in my local town center some years ago, "Flowers are lovel;y!" (they were, at least, trying to sell bunches of flowers).
Thanks Drach that was interesting.
I would just like to humbly announce, that, not only was mine the one thousandth like, but that there are, or were, members of this class moored along the River Thames. 🙂
Foxglove and Rosemary were used for escort work in Home waters until 1943, when they joined Lupin in harbor service. Cornwallis served as an escort in the RIN until 1944, when she became a training vessel. Four others were training hulks.
Foxglove was bombed in Sandown bay off the isle of Wight 9th July 1940 and was so badly damaged she was used as an accommodation ship and was scrapped at the end of the war. My father was serving on her at the time of the bombing and was badly injured and lost a leg.
@@terrysaint7629 THANKS for the correction
Surely a wealthy nation such as the United Kingdom could buy the last remaining sloop, discharge the docking charges and restore her to her WWI glory..
"wealthy nation", ha! We can barely man our own active ships.
Such a what now?
clearly you not seen the UK from the inside...
No they are saving the money for the forth coming kitchen knife buy back program to reduce jam crime
@@skimbo1407 .. Understand your skepticism, we in Australia have the same issue, and we are about to join your Nuclear Sub Club with subs built by you.. Maybe..
But you are a wealthy nation, it’s the manner of spending is the problem, again like us.. Saving a naval sloop and restoring it and then exhibiting it would be a community thing well worth the effort.. Bobbington Tank Museum and Duxford Museum are excellent examples of how Britain can do the job.. I envy you your museums..
You could have the HMS Pansy, the HMS Petunia, and the HMS Daffodil. Or the HMS Poppy?
Have you done a vid, about all the differnt parts of a ship?
Ideally with drawings, to explain what and where deck armour is, what the citadel is.
I think I have an idea about what and where they are but it would be nice, to be clarified
6:01 18 *or* 19 would be sunk during the war? I can't help but think there's a good story behind that one-ship uncertainty. Was the 19th one sunk *just* at the final whistle, so people aren't sure whether it counts as a wartime loss or not? Did one disappear with no definitive cause of loss? Or is this another example of the infamous "sunk vs. scuttled" debate?
If it's the only one of its class left it needs to be preserved as a museum ship to show a significant Evolution in naval warfare there are only three ships that I am aware of from the World War 1 error gorgeous Azeroth USS Texas that light Cruiser that served as a training ship that served up until 2010..
Then there's also that russian crane ship that's been around since the empire...
No, theres plenty more WWI era ships. However President is still very unique.
If you want it preserved as a museum ship, pony up the cash.
Scrapped because of unpaid docking fees?? What next? I'm sorry sir but we're going to scrap your one of a kind Jagdtiger because you have an unpaid parking ticket!
I cannot believe in this era of increased appreciation for naval history that the UK will scrap another last remnant of an important ship class. A tragedy if it happens.
Changed their appearance so they didn't look so threatening? iirc, when Sheer's recon plane spotted convoy HX 84, it reported the convoy was unescorted. In reality, it's only escort was Jervis Bay, a converted liner. As it happened, there was a group of four ex-US DDs that were also en route to the UK, from Halifax, traveling separately. It crosses my mind that, if those four DDs had left Halifax with HX 84, Sheer may have gone off looking for easier prey.
I hope you get this question, Drach. I do not know if you have already handled this topic, but what was the French navy doing during World War I?
Good question, put it in the pinned post.
@@williestyle35 ok ty, forgot about that.
I was always fascinated with a book about the WW2 flower class HMS Compass Rose , a compass rose not being a flower, sorta ! Thx. for the video. 👍
Book is "The Cruel Sea' I believe. Great book.
Sounds about right 👍 the Compass Rose , great name for a ship 👍
and film!
and apparently audio book: ruclips.net/video/RKwIwLXf2-U/видео.html&ab_channel=sweeneyfamily1
Is there a video of Q ships?
It would be nice if you included some information about how it must have been onboard for the lowly sailors, films like The Cruel Sea and In Which We Serve give some idea for corvettes, but otherwise, the lad's conditions are ignored.
Considering that they British "emergency" ships built at ludicrous speed and with a budget consisting of whatever loose change was found in the 1st Sea Lord's couch cushions, it couldn't have been great.
The Cruel Sea, good film that.
Did you read the booked it's based on? Highly likely that you will be riveted. As far as I can see a nearly unique look into the lives and experiences of those sailors that went to sea in small ships.
That's WW2 Flower corvettes
'Cruel Sea' author Nicolas Monsarrat also wrote three accounts of his own experiences, on which "The Cruel Sea" was partly based. They were originally published during the war as "HM Corvette", "East Coast Corvette" and "Corvette Command" and republished post-war in one volume as "Three Corvettes" (still available on-line).
@@CharlesStearman thank you for that.
Anyone have information on the beautiful ship displayed at 0:36 ?
Name, location, etc.
HMCS _Sackville_ at her summer location of the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic at the foot of Sackville Street, Sackville, Canada
@@Trek001 Thank you! Has this been there since 1992? I think it was...as I vaguely recall trying to convince my new bride that we NEEDED to tour that ship...on our honeymoon in Nova Scotia. 🤣
I took that picture back in 2022 :)
I think I asked for this, so thank you. Very interesting.
CHRYSANTHEMUM appeared in 'Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade', trying to squish Indy Jones and the glamorous Dr Schneider, in Tilbury Docks/Venice.
I've been on President, an organisation I worked with had its offices there, it would be a real shame to lose such a historic vessel.
"Flower" 🌼 power. Corvette, cool 😎 👌name.
History might not repeat
but certainly it rhimes
I don't get why the Royal Navy will reuse a name for a class. Imagine being told that you were assigned to a Flower class, learning all about it, and then finding out you were put on a sloop instead of a corvette.
Still yet to see HMS Pansy...
I thought they changed the name of HMS Pansy to something else? Not exactly sure, but I think that no one liked the idea of being assigned to a ship named "Pansy". And that it was poor for morale. But on the other hand can you imagine a U-boat Captain having to say his ship was sunk by HMS Pansy? I forget exactly which "Drydock" it was where Drach was talking about the two guys in the ship naming dept where one guy was giving ships sort of soft & pathetic names & the other guy giving them strong & fearful names. But somewhere in one of those Drydocks it seems like I remember the name being changed. Although I'm not exactly sure & if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time. And if you think about it pansies & tulips are usually the first to bloom. So there is that, but it always reminds me of Monty Python's "The Holy Grail" scene where the Black Knight has lost his arms & legs & he's still wanting to fight. And yells at them "Come back here you Pansy, I'll bite your legs off!" So the name does seem to carry a certain "softness" to it.
@@kennethdeanmiller7324 we're still yet to see HMS Pansy becuase it kept getting the name changed before laungh for exactly the reasons you've stated, and kept getting re-added to the list of posable names because people found it very funny to sugest.
Ah yes, that time HMS Pansy actually got to go keep the name
Awesome thanks 👍
If i was on a ship, and was challenged by "HMS Cucumber Sandwich," i would run. There's no way they'd name a ship anything like that unless it was death on the waves... ^-^
Warship 1989 has an article on this class of ships. I just recently re-read that issue. Drach were you working from that article?
I would suspect that President might be preserved following this.
if it is worth it.
someone nearby should have a look.
HMS Compass Rose.
Jack Hawkins.
Was the Compass Rose from The Cruel Sea a Flower class?
That’s the WW2 corvettes
20 years ago I got really, REALLY drunk whilst at an event aboard HMS President. That is all.
When we have to watch public money being spent/wasted on the stupidest of things then it would be obscene for President to be lost, she should belong to the country and incorporated into the Chatham historic fleet.
Sassafras? The original root used in root beer?
Sass-ah-frass, rhymes with brass.
Money for foreign countries to spend: Yes
Money to preserve your own country's history: Uhhh
Sloop snack video...seems appropriate
The English do love their gardens.
wonderful,old construction,on land,falls to pieces,
as with ships. Not enough wealthy,willing to spend
"constructively",old man. G.I.Davis sr24March
I’m a child who chuckled at the phrase:
“She had a widely spaced triple bottom.”
Designed to handle when the splash gets things wet.
I thought Drach was talking about my mother in law with that line
Saxifrage was pronounced right as it sounds as it's spelt. Aubrieta is pronounced as Aubresha.
Hunh, I thought you covered the Flowers. I read "The Cruel Sea" when I was in high school, _many_ years ago (ahem), and have always nursed a deep interest in the vessels and the heroes that went to sea in them. Oh, so much for my reading for content. Sigh.
Those are WW2 Flower corvettes.
@@AndrewTBP I guess not everyone is up to their reading for content skills. You might give the courtesy of rereading my comment and sea what you might have missed.
5:43 Aubrietia class I guess? The flower is usually pronounced awe-BREE-sha.
Flower Class ships chasing off U-Boats? Well that will never work...
⚓️
Do HMS Trent, Mersey, etc constitute another 'Flower' class?
Probably a "River" class. Another popular source whenever the RN needed to name a lot of ships, fast. Iirc there's currently a River class in service, a class of offshore patrol vessels, if my memory isn't completely shot.
Although for some reason they keep forgetting to name a ship after the river that flows through York. It's quite a substantial one, too...called the Ouse 🤔
@@christopherreed4723 Do rivers not flow?
thanks drach, as always a class documentary. Aubretia is pronounced "Orr-Breesh-A"
The toughest sailors in the fleet were those with “Pansy” written on their hats.
"Aw *bree* sha"
Is this class the first time we see a dedicated Admiralty design being prepared for commercial yards to construct? I think so...
Jane's noted that the use of the Q-ship versions was very dangerous work - being a decoy for U-boats was something which would work under the old cruiser rules, but with unrestricted warfare starting in 1916, they were always going to be little more than targets which could then counter-attack - *if* they survived the initial attack, that is (unless they spotted the periscope first). Brave crews who manned these ones.
The RN also commissioned the 'Racecourse' class of paddle minesweeper during the Great War - and some of these actually returned for war duty in 1939, again sweeping mines.
Does a flotilla of Flower class ships make a bouquet?
Corvette was always my favorite name of a class of ship. Not a bad car name either.
Save the Saxophone!
Was one of them named HMS Pansy?
Many ship names of the RN might stoke fear and dismay into the hearts of the King's enemies, like Terror, Revenge and Conqueror. And then we have HM Ships Buttercup, Pansy and Petunia.
Suck it up!
Aubretia = awebreesha.
Me hearing "Erebus class": Wait, there was a class of sloop that shared the name of the monitor?
After a little bit of confused surface scratching: Oh. Nope, Arabis class. Odd way of pronouncing it, but whatever.
Obviously the commenters degrading the names of these vessels don't have allergies, otherwise they'd give such names more respect.
Best name - WW2 corvette HMCS Wetaskiwin (after a town) - always pronounced as "Wet Ass Queen". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Wetaskiwin#/media/File:HMCS_Wetaskawin_badge_O-893-556.jpg
One wonders how much less painful the Royal Navy's experience in the Second Great War would have been if they had actually built all the small ships they were allowed to under treaty (the no-limits on
Imagine this today!
A country with more money than Russia yet having 20% of the ships and arsenal of that poorer country. Yet Parliament could overcome its precious fiscal scruples to print 400 billion pounds to fund lockdowns, and has zero problems funding lots of stupid stuff.
Britain could build and man a hundred corvettes (the British designed Khareef class are essentially light frigates) as well as 20 or more SSKs. A hundred missile attack craft would also be easily affordable.
A revitalized navy capable of fielding three fleets would have no shortage of volunteers, and if volunteers were still short there seem to be plenty of Gurkha's and others always willing to join up.
Moreover the benefit to Britain's industrial base would be huge.
Certainly has merits for the Royal Navy to make a serious stab at claiming the #2 slot for naval power and padding that margin such that there is no questioning the Royal Navy's position. Getting a bunch of cheap sloops into the water would be a great start to get the economy of scale going and train up reserves. @@robruss62
@@robruss62 The big problem wasn't money - it was capacity. The UK's shipyards had more work from the RN than they could manage.
Imagine there wasn't a world wide depression making increasing taxes to pay for your piped dream possible
85th, 10 February 2024