Paper Mario: Color Splash's Combat ~ Design Doc
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- Paper Mario: Color Splash has a divisive combat system that's worth discussing. Let's dive into Paper Mario battle systems and compare the old and new games.
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ah yes, nothing was more fun than getting a thing sticker and having it take up most of your inventory space for the whole level
That... makes no sense.
That happens on Sticker Star, not Color Splash.
@You Wish 1st: wow 2 years later. Holy moly.
2nd: if I were to look back on it now a days I'd say my main gripe is that you never have a reliable attack. The game has to be dotted with regular stickers constantly just to prevent you from not having anything to attack with when you need it.
I'm not against change and I actually really like super paper mario, which was a drastic change from series norms. Just don't fix what ain't broken or slap on some new mechanic that breaks what was already in place. Also final fantasy.
@Joel Johnson fair deal bro. If you like it no big
@You Wish But it was kind of lame and uninspired, and most of all, just felt bad. Having those really large things taking up so much space made your inventory feel cramped, and when your entire ability to fight is based on that inventory, limiting it with arbitrary required things (as design docs mentioned, bosses HAD to be fought in a SPECIFIC way) was beyond a pain. As to your point of "resource management", it's like design docs already said: battles are over in a single turn no matter what attacks you use, and you have so many resources that it doesn't really matter and turns combat, what half the game relies on to keep you engaged, into a slog. These games weren't well received for a reason, and just because you enjoyed them doesn't mean they aren't bad.
I say if they want to keep with the de-RPG-ing of the gameplay, just ditch the battles all together. Take a page out of Super Paper Mario's book and have the enemies wander around to be stomped on or whatever. You could use an item similar to stickers or cards to vary and power up your attacks. To fix rewards, make enemies occasionally give you helpful items.
Swoof That might work actually. I think a default-3D Super Paper Mario would be pretty interesting.
that's an interesting idea, but i feel like that would be too similar to main mario games.
I had this idea for Sticker Star's gameplay. You'd get every sticker permanently once you found them, sorta like badges, but having limited space in your album to allocate them. It'd be something similar to KH 358/2 Days, but with the star points leveling system you could choose whether to upgrade your HP, FP or your album size (and there would be HP Up or other passive effect stickers, too).
Jeez, almost like an RPG? I have no idea why the devs of this series are so intent on ditching the RPG aspect.
@@TheZaaz I’m waiting for the next Paper Mario to come out just so we can finally see it’s not because Nintendo had two RPG series with it and Mario & Luigi.
@@Hawlo I have a gut feeling that the next Paper Mario will essentially be Origami King 2. They really do seem intent on eliminating the RPG aspect. I think your idea is great! But I also have 0 faith in the dev team to make smart decisions.
Sorry to be so offtopic but does anyone know a tool to get back into an instagram account?
I stupidly forgot the account password. I would appreciate any help you can give me
@Hugh Fox Instablaster =)
The best part is that Paper Mario already proved that you don't need to be the exact same as your predecessors in order to be good. Super Paper Mario is it's own thing, and is amazing for it.
Babyweegeetime lmao wrong but ok
Super Paper Mario is easily one of the best mario rpgs, and its barely even an rpg
@@aa9945 it was a okay game bud. nowhere as good as the three predecessors before it
@@UnDeAdSpRaYe Sorry to disagree homie, but objectively, SPM is way better in its characters, story, the development of both and enviromentization (or however is wirtten, english is not my main languange), OST could be debated, but yeah.
TTYD is better in gameplay, but saying SPM is an okay game is a reach, because is an amazing one
@@SuperMono64 you really just said SPM is better than TTYD,64 and legend of the seven stars?.... please stfu TTYD alone outsold and got better ratings than that game. keep your shitty opinion to yourself
@@UnDeAdSpRaYe I said it has a better story, characters and how these were developed, I never said it was a better game overall:)
No! You missed the PERFECT pun opportunity!
You could have ended on "it made the game PAPER THIN".
Your profile pic goes so well with this statement.
Well, the game tries to do that enough as is.
@joseaca "As boring as cardboard"
or "colorless"
@@raikiri000 eh, that's not that good.
As an RPG lover, the Badge system is one of the absolute best level up/progression/customization systems I've ever had the joy of playing with.
A great example would be in chapter 2 against the clefts. 2 defense enemies are not a thing you can defeat in NORMAL conditions unless you use Bombette and her expensive bomb. KEYWORD NORMAL. I remember buying some badges badges, including D-Down Pound. After reading Goombario saying "It requires courage to run away" I remember that patch and used it against those enemies while thinking "I'm better than the game thinks I am".
I could also used Bombette's Bomb, charging power with my hammer, waiting a bit to get quake hammer or Parakarry, using a pow or listening the unreliable Goombario. Examples like that of getting multiple approaches with badges started to become really common from that point onwards, like jumping on pokeys instead of hammer, quake hammer instead of Parakarry, the fourth battle against Jr. Troopa, how crystal king with AOE, etc.
The battle system in TTYD was pretty much perfect. Playing Color Splash was decent, but one time is enough, while I could play TTYD and SPM countless times. There's just no point in Color Splash's battles. If every attack is a consumable, I'm hesitant to use them. Plus, I don't really get anything valuable for victory.
Lugmillord especially since ttyd had ways to mix up the battle system. new partners with unique abilities, badges that give a variety of moves, and enemies that change with each area.
Perhaps if there was a weak attack that one could use infinitely, and/or mana refills over time, that might make a difference.
The thing is, look at the stickers like an ether in a typical RPG. Restoring Mana means more heals... and is saved for a point when needed. If there was a weak attack... players would stick with that and rather then use offense stickers save them if not replace them all with HP restoratives.
I personally disagree that TTYD has a perfect battle system. Random events are actually terrible. But yes, Color Splash is lackluster in this department. Although I really enjoyed the world that you explore, it, in my opinion, easily makes up for it. The game might as well not even have a battle system. And it would probably be even better for it. From a Color Splash Fan, "I still love the other games!"
TTYD's battle system was two steps forward and three steps back for me since the RNG made it completely terrible. You get worse stage hazards via level ups making me want to stay under leveled so I don't have to deal with the terrible stage gimmicks.
Some people also forget about the companions/partners... they made the early games great as they contributed variety as well.
Still after their respective chapter, most became useless. Perhaps it'll be intentional this time, exchanging between partners as the story needs them, rather than tagging without adding much more to the story.
Bug Fables continues to look realllllly nice right now
It's a good one.
Bug Fables was one of my best purchases all year, but TOK was by far the worst.
@@Cerebrum123 To be honest, I enjoyed ToK. It's a far cry from classic Paper Mario and it holds itself back from being great in a lot of frustrating ways but it's the first Paper Mario I've genuinly enjoyed since TTYD and it's OK as its own thing. Bug Fables is still way better though.
@@DesignDoc I mean, glad you enjoyed it, but I couldn't. I disliked it even more than Sticker Star, and that is saying a lot. For every 1 step forward I saw 100 back. It was the final nail in the coffin for the series for me.
I'm one of the people who enjoyed Super Paper Mario, so that was the last one I liked. The past three games have nothing of what drew me to the series, and even if I just consider them on their own merits I dislike them. There wasn't anything there I found enjoyable.
I agree that the gameplay is bad, but I'm much more sad about the fact that the story, environments and characters in the new Paper Mario are all so shallow. TTYD and the original PM made the Mario Universe seem so vibrant and alive, but now this series has devolved into nothing more than having paper joke after paper joke.
Exactly! There were way too many paper jokes, and it took away from actually caring about the characters. It was like they over emphasize the fact that the universe wasn't real. It was just paper. The first three paper Marios actually made me care about the characters and what happened to them and had an engaging story, plot twists and all that. But, color splash...
It’s also annoying that the great variety of different character species got replaced with... Toads, and... Toads... and more Toads...
White-Van Helsing
Chuggaconroy? Is that you? Lol
You hit the nail on the head my friend.
Did we play different Color Splashes? I genuinely enjoyed the writing. There were plenty of jokes that just landed, and most of the jokes in Color Splash aren't paper based. The environments in Color Splash are consistently creative (after chapter 1, anyway) and the characters, despite all being Toads and regular Mario enemies, actually have...personalities? Even the Koopalings are significantly more interesting than in any other Mario game.
There's also the issue of lack of control or moment to moment strategy due to being unable to attack the enemy you want. I would also like to point out that in the originals, it's absolutely clear what you need to do and when for action commands. I have no idea when I should be doing what for most of the Things for instance.
What if, instead of having a separate health stat, the paint bars *were* your health? Different enemies could deal damage to different paint bars, so you’d have to factor that in and keep any of the bars from falling to zero and getting a game over. That’d also interact in cool ways with the existing elements of the paint system- sometimes you’d need to give up a little paint to prevent a flurry of big attacks from tanking it completely. Certain enemies could also focus exclusively on damaging one or two bars, making the extra bars more expendable at the cost of effectively having less health to work with. You’d still have to tweak things a bit to make them a little less... Color Splash... but on concept alone I think that’d make for a really unique and engaging system!
and now Oragami King seems to just be more of the same
@Pen Bashiro, MD I agree. From what I've seen of Origami King the combat is definitely an improvement and could have worked if they didn't take away the exp element to it to make battles worth doing. I've seen people going through the first part of the game getting into combat and being able to kill all enemy clusters on their turn since Mario gets to go twice (why?) so he never takes damage in those fights at least. So they why does he need to have 50 hp to start
Here's an idea for future Paper Mario games:
Take the classic system, but tie the timed attacks and defense to the music playing in the background so that timing is predictable to the musical cues, but adds variety to usual attacks on these situations.
This got recommended to me again after Origami King’s trailer. Now I have to watch this again
Well, after seeing all the innovation (LoZ: BotW) and back to the roots (Super Mario Odyssey) with the Nintendo Switch, maybe there's hope for the Paper Mario series when one gets announced for the Switch...hopefully.
Or... You know... There's the other, very similar, more engaging and more skill-based Mario & Luigi games, which fix almost everything in the video? That's probably what the developers thought most people would play instead. They then made Paper Mario less complex and more beginner friendly. It's a perfect introduction to the genre. Not too much going on, not too many things to think about, not too many options. It's simple and easy to understand.
Is any of this making sense? I don't want to get off on the wrong foot here, I'm just considering the _why,_ since this video only lists the _what._ I just think they downgraded the combat system on purpose, so it was more appropriate for newcomers.
After all, it makes the series unique. I struggled to get the hang of Paper Mario 64 and gave up after a while because I was just getting confused. Modern Paper Mario games are more approachable-
-Ack! I'm rambling about the same point again! Sorry. I do that a lot. Anyway, I've raised my point, so I'll shut up for a bit. Just know that I'm still willing to listen if you disagree with anything I've said.
I completely understand that approach, as in general, RPG title's can get quite intimidating. My argument is kind of a personal approach, but I picked up Paper Mario: TTYD when I was about 6 or 7 years old, and I played that game all the time, I loved everything about it. What's important however, is that way back then when I was that age, I was able to get to the very end of the game, without the use of any external guides. Again, RPG's are intimidating, but Nintendo created this RPG to be understandable by everyone. That's what Nintendo is about. The game was designed to, while being a good game in terms of story and environment, have enticing and fun gameplay mechanics. There weren't many stats like in Final Fantasy. Only HP, FP, and BP. And besides that, Attack and Defense for opponents. Furthermore, as described in the video, the usage of smaller damage points is very important. It made it very easy to calculate or gauge you next moves careful because everything was easily countable. It was simple enough a concept that made it approachable to a wider audience than other RPG's such as, again, Final Fantasy.
Too risky, it’s not gonna happen.
there is a new game on switch for paper mario
@@CodeAvali I definitely feel a grander sense of adventure from The Origami King compared to CS and SS. The scale and mood of the world and story feels closer to that of TTYD and SPM. It feels like its going to be a (hopefully) good mix of how the old games felt and how the newer titles are. I'm just worried by the lack of a partner system again, and the battle system looks like it may be gimmicky.
According to TVTropes, The actual damage formula for Paper Mario is just "DMG=ATK-DEF", which is one of the simplest RPG Damage Formulas I've ever seen.
i really appreciate how you break down your argument into structured points and give specific examples. so many games crit people just kind of vaguely complain or praise without a structured, demonstrated argument, which makes me feel like all i can do is agree or disagree. but your type of approach gives me a chance to learn something and think!
I love all the work you put into your videos.
Not only are your topics and points incredibly well done and put, but so are your visuals.
Honestly that ending point that taking out the core systems made it feel hollow is incredibly on point, they took out major systems that would've kept the player interested and didn't really put anything back in its place. If there was any way to save the deck system, I'd say pointing at how Mega Man Battle Network did it was a good idea. It had progression that made you WANT to seek out new enemies and get excited about it, want new cards to add to your deck, and even keep "weak" cards in your hand so you could burn a bunch of them to make a super card.
The first two had a really beautiful economy within their battle system. Do you use your star power to heal and replenish your health and flower points? What if you're only low on your partner's HP and nothing else? Would it then be a waste of star power to use a healing move? Should you just save your star power for special attacks? Should you waste a turn switching partners? SO much to think about, and while the games aren't particularly hard, it's VERY rewarding to make smart plays in battle.
Here's my major problem with both Sticker Star and Color Splash: you have absolutely NO option that DOESN'T use the game's gimmick; you cannot JUST jump on an enemy or smash with the hammer.
Compared to the the previous games, Mario could jump or smash nomrally at a 0 cost, but the more powerful attacks cost points to use. Here, it's like they ditched the normal attacks for some that are cost only.
So basically, they want to kill the poor Paper dude.
The classic RPG formula is still great, why try and make a weaker 'Chain of Memories' style thing?
Or better summed up; *Why do I need ammo, TO PUNCH!?!?!*
Other issues of course, just the "ammo style" is something i never liked
Honestly, the whole “consumable attacks” concept might have worked if you were given a basic attack that you could use as often as you wanted, and used cards to power up those basic attacks. That makes more sense than needing an item in order to perform a basic action, and it would allow players to battle without the feeling that they’re wasting items away just by standing there.
+NinjaMaster909 definitely.
Firestar4041 "Ammo" is in every RPG, but I agree that there should have been a basic, weak, reusable attack.
At least Chain of Memories has a strategy to it. The order of the cards in your combo. Do you use a sleight now and lose a card, or wait and keep your basic combo? Stock up on tons of lower number cards or keep a handful of hard to break big ones?
Paper Mario is just stock up on the best stuff and waste it all on goombas.
the gbaversion at least. the remake is literally just that too:stock up the best shit and you win. only diffrence is you need to know how to create those op sleights
I never thought I would ever want a deck building mechanic in my Paper Mario, but that would've made Color Splash much more interesting in terms of customizability and progression. Slay the Spire + Paper Mario? Where's my time machine, I need to let IS know about this.
AlphaDream dabbled with this in Paper Jam with the Battle Cards, but those were supplementary, not the main form of combat.
The part I hated the most were the Things. They ruined every battle they were involved in, from instantly killing any basic enemy to those cryptic boss puzzles that shouldn’t exist, and with the addition of the roulette and the replicas, you can essentially skip any battle for the low price of 10 coins. They all basically do the same thing anyways, just deal a boat load of damage, and their existence in the game is just awkward anyways. It’s never explained why these realistic objects exist in this cartoony world. It’s as if the developers thought “Hey wouldn’t it be funny if Paper Mario had a realistic fan?” and left it at that without bothering to expand upon it. Honestly, if they completely ditched the Things and spent more time on making the battles engaging and less time thinking about what realistic objects to put into the game, I feel like Color Splash and maybe even Sticker Star would have been somewhat good.
Yeah. It would be better if they actually had an explamation for being there that would maybe add to the story or something, but they don't. They were pretty much put in there to make it funny or something.
Imagine if the things were a thing (lol, isn't that confusing?) because some powerful entity dropped them on the land, all the characters make paper puns because they know they're in a book, and the author of said book is the powerful entity of that world, basically working as god.
But a few decades later, the author dies from an illness, and for the next few decades, the world lives peacefully, remembering the author for as long as they live.
One day, a mysterious individual comes out and tells the whole mushroom kingdom that there is a secret way to become the new god (author), not only that, but this individual gives the kingdom a clue. This news soon meets it's way across the whole land.
The majority of the world worry that such thing as replacing a god exists, others don't believe in it, calling it "Baseless rumors", but the minority (Still a huge number) goes on a quest to replace god, some do it individually, others do it in teams.
Peach worries if that this all the rumors are true, than sometime as of then, someone could become the new author, and that there is a high possibility that such powerful powers could end in the wrong hands. Because of this, she, Mario and Luigi go and intend in finding the next clue to become the new author.
Across their adventure, they will meet various individuals (One of them could be bowser) and somewhere along the first third of the game, they will finally meet the main villain, and....
I could go on forever, but I rather not.
I know that Nintendo isn't that nice about religion, so instead of using "God" they could simply use "Author".
I think this kind of plot could be on level with TTYD.
Jitsus: The man who critiques everything - This story is amazing. You NEED to go do something with your idea!
i dont think you have to do the bosspuzzles in sticker star,they are just optional to make the boss faster. its just that there is absolutely no other way to win in color splash
@@lpfan4491the game just twists your wrist in Sticker Star in that regard, beating the bosses with their intended Things is optional, but it sure is gonna be a very rocky road because without the weakness, they're tanky as heck, and one single slip can mean tons of damage, though I can still see some people liking that kinda challenge, its a harsher Mega Man way very much
Color Splash though, it straight up cuts your hand if you refuse to follow the pretermined path to beat the bosses, while also mocking you for refusing to do so, as if experimenting and doing self imposed challenges was taboo or something
Proof that a Paper Mario game can be different to the first two games and still be a great game is Super Paper Mario
You know what game that does implement Color Splash's combat and progression system right? Breath of the Wild.
* head explodes *
Daniel Royer Absolutely. People complain about the brittle weapons, but they actually serve to make people experiment and try new things. In a linear game like Paper Mario this doesn’t work, but in an open world game like BotW, it works great.
I mean, there are so many reasons why BotW's weapon system and progression works and modern paper mario doesn't, it could warrant it's own video series *wink wink* In BotW, you can use weapons to interact with the enviornment; there are a limited number of weapon types, but each individual weapon has a lot of variety, like bladed v blunt to name just one; oh, and THEY'RE NOT SINGLE USE
At first I was hesitant to play Wild Breath, but it can be quite fun. Also, you could just "spam" bombs all you want.
Jane Huskmann Bombs do barely any damage later in the game, and are tedious to use against enemies in close range.
Sticker star's maybe shallow, but things get really nice if you played it thingless and 100%.
For 100%, oh my god the sticker museum is just amazing. The sense of acomplishment I got from finding a new sticker and completing the museum is just very good, and figuring out where to stick new stickers isn't confusing at all.You'll need a ton of money for those blue doors (as many things are inside them) so fighting enemies has a purpose (more enemies defeated = more money on goal).
For thingless, yes, you can actually beat this game thingless apart from two fights. Or you can go even further to infiniboots-less. It's nice to add some strategy to it, but unfortunately the game doesn't compliment you for that. One thing I hate about color splash is how things are mandatory for boss fights.
I can't deny that modern PM is flawed as hell, but I strongly recommend playing it thingless+100%, if possible. Feels like stciker star has great pacing for 100% than any games I've 100%ed so far.
As much as everyone hated sticker star I would say sticker star had better battle system than color splash. But the first 3 are heavily better than the last 2. Hopefully Origami King can be on par with super, I doubt it can catch N64 and thousand year
What really hurts is that we *know* you can make a good paper mario game without rpg elements, as thats exactly what Super Paper Mario is.
"If you're going to change the system, you need to end up with something compelling and rewarding." Like Super Paper Mario, granted it is different than the original as well as the best in the series, but the way it is handled still makes combat rewarding as you gain experience, items, and coins. The story is more compelling as well, instead of fighting Bowser for the umpteenth time to save the mushroom kingdom you are fighting the evil Count Bleck to prevent him from ending the world with maybe the best story in the whole series, and while there aren't really partner characters as companions on your journey to fight alongside, you have Mario, Peach, Luigi, and Bowser all with different play styles. Different doesn't necessarily mean bad, it can be beneficial and make a good game, however you have to make up for what you take away or change, Super does this Sticker Star and Color Splash do not.
Exactly. As for the partner issue, I think in color/they were kind of poking fun at that. There was this legendary pirate that kept saying he was going to follow you around and annoy you for ruining his food. I honestly liked the company, though, so I was OK with that!.
Brigitte Dassler Color Splash > Sticker Star
Personally I didn't care for Color Splash as a whole. Sure the visuals are gorgeous and the writing is tp notch, but everything else about it to me either feels like a "Been there done that" or using too much Super Mario Bros elements (by that I mean stuffing the game with boring Mario tropes) And it seems like a war crime to dislike Color Splash, and people can like what they like or dislike what they dislike, but at the end of the day its all opinions and I just don't like Modern Paper Mario. And this isn't from being a Classic Paper Mario fan either. (before people start slapping on the singling out label)
Outside of that I have to agree CS/SS battle system is just awful! I can see some people liking it, but there's way too many simplifications where its poor to use. Not to mention bosses aren't fun to fight because they are locked behind a "Win Button" option (I question why the Things don't KO them in one-shot) You pretty much nailed everything in this video. Good Job.
Btw what did you mean a couple of exceptions on Partner only runs? Does this apply to both 64 and TTYD? or Just the latter? If its 64 I can agree.
I was referring to some early game stuff in 64 like not being able to take out spiked goombas with just Goombario or a good chunk of Chapter 4 in TTYD. Granted you can run away.
Warbot Well in 64 the only real "Partner only Runs" can really only be done with Parakarry and Sushie. (Maybe Goombario) as the rest have limitations. However some exceptions would have to be made.
And true for TTYD.
Newer Paper Mario is moronically designed and is attempting to fix what was never broken.
Brendan Coulter How is it attempting to fix anything? It's not fixing anything, it's changing.
Nathan Thames - It’s changing in a negative way. It used to be much better, but pretty much all of the good aspects have been utterly destroyed.
@@BagelBrain Good series evolve.
Modern Paper Mario devolves.
An excellent analysis! I always knew the combat was bad, but this explains exactly WHY. Awesome video!
Changing the combat system in PM is counter-productive. TTYD's combat still has so much potential. Their time is better spent making new interesting situations in combat.
You should make a video about Bug Fables' combat system! It's amazing how it takes inspiration from the classic Paper Mario formula and expands on it. It's a real shame Nintendo has gone down the route of Sticker Star and Color Splash instead of doing something similar to what Bug Fables has done...
So if the first two games are "Classic Paper Mario" and the two new games are "Modern Paper Mario", does that make Super Paper Mario "Genesis era Paper Mario"? ... .... sorry, couldn't resist.
Boo
Don't you mean Adventure Era?
Dreamcast era.
I'd say Adventure Era. What with those multiple playstyles, Mario's friends, and that awkward jump to 3D.
Its best if we all pretend SPM never existed
Nintendo needs to not completely reinvent the series. Just add a few new elements and a new story that's fun and engaging
11:22 As seen with Super Paper Mario.
This is a very well made video, both analysis- and editing-wise! Keep up the awesome work.
I completely agree with this video. And this is coming from someone that usually defends this game.
EDIT: One thing though: There are slightly more aspects than "Jump, Hammer, Heal, or Thing." There's also the amount of times you attack, since enemy Stacks are a thing. So, for example, a Hopslipper would be more effective than a Hammer against a Shy Guy Stack, even though both Jumps and Hammers would work against it.
I love how this pops into my reccomendations the day the new Paper Mario is revealed
Funny how this shows in my recommendations the same day as Origami King is anounced
So dose the new combat look okay to you because they ditched the stickers
@@Rosie_Cozy the new combat looks good to me not just because they ditched the stickers, but because they added something that might actually add some real decision making back into the combat again, without having it be aggravating like the stickers/cards were. I've got hope!
@@autumn_breeze616 i mean i understand what they added i just hope there is a reason to not run from every battle i hope we get xp
Same here. XD
Man, that outro music is some real nostalgia stuff for me, I loved SPM when I was younger. That was one of the most iconic songs, along with the Whoa Zone, The Overthere, and the “Chapter Start” theme I think
I found it cute that the amount of color the enemy had left represents their HP
It's a cool visual but it's not that useful as information.
I agree, it's kind of gimmicky, in my opinion.
If it was paired with the actual numbers, it would be great. Instead of taking away from the informative design the game's series has had, it would add to it.
Yeah not a issue at all
I think it was cute too, but it doesn't ever let you know what to do. You can't tell whether a boss at 10% health is low enough that you can just kill him now, or it'll take a few more turns so you should heal up and play more long-term in case he makes a comeback.
I love these in depth analysis videos! Please do more.
Working on it! Thanks for watching!
The quality of content on this channel is top-notch! I see great potential for your subscriber count.
While Colour Splash is an undeniably beautiful game, I have to admit I'm tired of the "everything is paper" aesthetic. With two wool-based games and now 3 paper/craft-based games (Yoshi's Crafted World), it's just not as unique or interesting anymore. And Paper Mario doesn't have to be restricted to this!
Paper Mario, TTYD and SPM all have such great art styles and mix things in well. When everything is made of paper, it becomes a very flat experience.
I would really like them to go a different route in terms of the artstyle for the next one, the original Paper Mario was very pop up book like, TTYD went with more elaborated constructs and puppets (even the battles being like over the top paper puppet shows), Super took a more computery geometry approach (I dunno how to call that), and that really further set each game apart, but then, modern Paper Mario is really the same exact “arts & crafts” look, just getting updated each game, and it’s getting boring, no matter how high class they make the papery world, I want something else already, not Sticker Star 4 in terms of visuals
I love color splash with all my heart, and I think it mostly the paint system, exploration, and ESPECIALLY comedy.
How sad that the most fair video on the sticker star gameplay style has such little exposure. I guess outrage just sells more.
the thing that breaks my heart us Color Splash is such a beautiful game.
In less than 10 minutes you've imagined a battle system far more engaging than what Color Splash's design team put together in [however much time it took them to make the game], well done.
It would be interesting to see the three paint colours treated as three types of replenish-able fuel for special attacks with different effects on each enemy type, for example against the Padobo enemies, without some blue (ice) paint you're going to have a bad time. You could even mix the paint later on to amplify effects (purple, orange, green). Coupled with a level up system that offered the choice of HP, Paint Capacity or Badges this could have been as good as, if not better than TTYD instead of a mere footnote to the series.
super stoked about origami king though, with the idealistic hope that they learned from their tragic mistakes
Amazing (and well-designed) video!
I was thinking about the card system and well, I can see it suceeding, but requires A LOT of tweeks to work.
1°: Make most cards repaintable but rare, so basically you would build your deck from zero to get a clear sense of progression.
2°: Give the player some reliable found of damage, in this case basic jump and hammer.
3°: Make the player able to select what opponent are you attacking. That's something every game by turns have because you need to control your actions.
4°: Give the cards clear categories to have a clean deck.
5°: Visualize the damage an enemy has received. That alongside them losing paint can replace decently enemy life bars.
6°: Make the hammer drops able to raise both your attack, Health points or paint, similar to the old system.
7°: Some important nerfs, because Mario is absurdly broken with all the AoE he has and things are too cheap overall.
8°: Make the menu simple to read, altough with so little cards you now need that might not be the case anymore.
9°: Fixing bosses by making them really difficult to defeat without certain item, but still beatable, like Jr. Troopa can still be stomped, but the game gave you parakarry and Watt to the most basic ways to deal with him.
I really like your color-effect idea
"Regardless of where you stand on Color Splash, the most common criticism has been the very flawed battle system." Oof. Okay, I haven't played Color Splash myself yet, but considering one of the big reasons why I HATED Sticker Star was its combat system, and considering this doesn't look much different than Sticker Star's battles... It's gonna be falling further and further down my "I should at least try this" list.
9:04 = Wait, what? How is Mario only at 5 max HP? You start with 10 max HP in Thousand-Year Door. Or is there a specific badge in that game which sets your max HP to 5? (two minutes of reading later) So... the character who can reduce two stats by raising a third can bring your HP down to 5, apparently. Huh. Since 10 is what Mario starts with, I wouldn't have thought you could knock his HP lower than that.
Yeah, the disposable nature of the cards / stickers does discourage players from trying new stickers once they get them. What if you can't find this kind of attack again or at least can't find it for a little while? It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Sticker Star shortly after the Shiny Pokey fight; I NEEDED a specific Thing to cheese the fight or I would probably destroy my entire sticker album like I did against the Goomboss (not gonna bother checking if that was that boss's name because screw Sticker Star) because that's apparently how you play Sticker Star. Oof.
Yeah, probably don't play Color Splash.
In response to your question about marios HP: there's a badge that decreases Marios HP for stat buffs, it's a common challenge run to go for a very low HP Mario.
Just finished watching every "modern" video on this channel (except the Kingdom Hearts one and the FF 10 and 13 one since I plan to play those later), and they're making me appreciate and enjoy great games much more, it's amazing how many aspects should be considered while making a single game!
The editing and designs used are also top notch, keep up the good work!
Dude, that combination idea with the fire flower and hammer to create the fire hammer like Morton’s battle was such a missed opportunity.....
Origami kings is still item based, but you always have your two basic attacks so you don't run out, it seems things were replaced with the ring battle and badges might come back, origami king looks better than the last two, but we still don't know about FP or something like that. Hopefully origami king is better than any other to show how the series has grown.
From the future, and yes, while Color Splash is about as flawed as Sticker Star tbh, Origami King actually addressed major issues the first two had, even if it's still very open to improvements, it was a good game, unlike the other two that are either boring or annoying to play, even the battle system in TOK as mixed as it is, it's still better than what was in those two modern PMs, where you were completely discouraged to engage in combat at all, and where they would even tamper with the already flawed system, which lead to even blander and bothersome experiences
Remember that 1 episode of spongebob where squidward is alone but if he talks words appear.
Just me? Ok.
damn they out here actually saying that Chain of Memories had a better combat system
good game, if only more people gave it a chance
I saw this on reddit, and I love these kinds of videos. It's obvious you spend a good amount of time of editing and it is really nice. Keep going, I've subscribed.
Who's here after the Paper Mario The Origami King reveal?
Plenty, and all hoping the battle system is much, MUCH better
@@unnamed7485 Yeah, I have faith in this. Lets hope it's not Sonic Forces.
Origami king combat is infinitely better than Color Splash
We haven't seen XP, but the combat is overal much better every way
One of my favorite aspects about one of Intelligent Systems' other flagship games, Fire Emblem, is that its combat also uses small numbers to achieve much the same effect. It gives combat more engagement, as players can mentally calculate their damage output versus enemy defense, while other factors, such as hit chance and ability to double attack, complicate matters and give even more depth.
Character stats are also on this smaller scale, meaning the stat increases with each level-up feel MUCH more impactful. Strength goes up by 1 point? You deal exactly one more point of damage. I feel this is a lot nicer compared to most RPGs, where because of the big numbers and complicated damage calculations, if my Strength goes up by, say, 3, I have no idea how much that actually improves my damage.
bruh new paper mario origami king has been announced and they recommending me this?
I'm quite enjoying the new content, keep it up man
also I've been watching since the Sonic '06 commentary with gnrfan, but I quite like the new niché you have created for yourself
That's the plan! Thanks a ton!
I appreciate your use of SPM music since it wasn’t talked about
I will never understand why Nintendo always acts like they're ashamed of so many of their fan-favourite games and feel a need to low-key erase them from the minds of the masses.
Color Splash is a card game that doesn't act like a card game. Cards are painfully similar and rarely interact with each other, it's moreover a matter of how much damage you can deal rather than thinking about the best decision.
It's a symptom of arbitrarily forcing cards to be expended after you use them, only to replace those cards with essentially the same thing with a new coat of paint (no pun intended).
Part of what makes card games fun are the unique deckbuilding combinations that can arise from the large swath of cards. Not to mention the significant resource management that comes with that, as you must guage what cards are worth having in your deck, how to spend your resources that allow you to play cards, and ensuring that you don't waste all of your cards, leaving you with an empty hand.
Color Splash challenges you on none of these fronts.
There's no one way to fix Color Splash's battle mechanics, as they are fundamentally flawed for what they are trying to do, and the entire system would need to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I think they chose cards just so they could add a couple Gamepad functionalities to the battle system, the paint gimmick to the stickers, as well as a way to address the inventory issue of Sticker Star
So just for the sake of keeping Sticker Star’s formula with minimal changes and improvements, not so much to do anything interesting with a customizable deck
I'm a big fan of the first two Paper Mario games who's been playing through Sticker Star lately, and while I don't think it's nearly as good as the originals in story or combat I actually do appreciate the interesting level design and exploration. But it's nice to see this video break down and analyze the reasons WHY this new style feels so lackluster in comparison, because I was having a hard time defining it myself. I think I agree with all the points raised, and I don't have much interest in making time to play Color Splash after seeing that it seems like arguably a step BACKWARD from Sticker Star. You didn't even mention the fact that you can no longer even target which enemy you want to attack (in SS and it looks like in CS as well), which is extremely frustrating especially in combination with the fact that you start fights targeting the same enemy you already weakened with your first strike, which is often the LEAST efficient enemy to target first! I appreciate the experimentation, but I'm disappointed they didn't learn their lesson after Sticker Star, and hope they don't try to give this system a third try.
While I did overall like Color Splash, especially with its beautiful art direction, the combat was the part that stuck out the most to me.
It was really cool and interesting, _for the first world._
It got really boring, really fast.
Ive never played the original paper Mario's, but I did play Super Paper Mario, and really enjoyed its 'combat.'
I would really prefer the RPG games style of combat, from the DS and 3DS line. They had really fun combat, with the unique twist of being able to completely dodge any attack if you were skilled enough.
One of the things I hated the most about the battle system in Color Splash, was the required 'things.'
They are poorly explained, badly executed, ugly, annoying, and a pain to use in battle. Since some bosses and events require specific thing cards, and one stage in particular requires a specific thing card to be battled with OTHER thing cards in a very specific way.
I had to look up a guide for it, and in the end, bought so many thing cards, backtracked several times, and effectively lost all of my money just to continue the game, over a very annoying, and pointless mechanic.
Its also the reason I never finished the game, since I don't have any high damage cards, and cant afford to buy anymore, and cant be bothered to grind.
I actually really like the idea of the battle system. But here’s how it could improve. 3 moves that you can always use no matter what.
1. Basic jump
2. Basic Hammer
3. Use a card
Of course this was recommended to me now
I know this video is several years old, and there's a whole other game ahead of this one, but if Color Splash did go back to a more traditional Paper Mario combat system, the paint FP system could have made the combat even more balanced and nuanced than TTYD. There's a very clear meta on what moves are good and what aren't based almost entirely on the damage/utility vs. the FP expended. While speedrunners are going to scrutinize any game so that that's always going to be the case, having multiple varying attacks based on multiple FP bars could change how entire attacks are viewed.
When there's only one base FP to grab from, every attack matters, 1 output for x amount of universal resource; but the paint system could've, for example, had a really good attack that uses blue paint, and freed enough yellow or red paint for moves to shine that otherwise would've been overlooked. On the other side of that, it could've balanced out incredibly powerful attacks without completely draining all the player's resources and forced the player to create a balanced move pool rather than only considering the FP cost. Having multiple resources to manage would make it matter less if certain attacks drained one resource faster and left those attacks unusable since a smart player should have backups. Or it could allow you to value a yellow paint teammate with your red/blue centric setup or whatever else you like. It opens so many highways to customize your experience, explore multiple setups to see which you prefer, and can better challenge players' resource management skills as any RPG should.
Why take away RPG elements when you're making an RPG? What's left?
The fun of RPGs comes from strategy, so making everything so basic strips away the fun. Add onto that the tedium of selecting and painting cards and you have a boring game.
This video popped up in my recommendations after the Origami King reveal and it's on point! I agree 100%. Sticker Star and Color Splash prove that "creative" gimmicks don't necessary make for a better game in the four key areas you mention. Hopefully Origami King can reintroduce some substance that's gone missing.
Now with Mario and Luigi RPG series gone, Paper Mario had better come back to where it came from. We need Mario RPGs. I just finished TTYD and boy that game is awesome. Beating the last boss took some effort for me but once I figured the right strategy, I was still on my last legs but it couldn't have been any more satisfying and engaging. I could not look away. You're right about Color Splash.
Coming back to this video, I played some of Color Splash. The game bore me down to quitting from it. I want to finish it but it's just because I started it already. And I wanna finish all Paper Mario games, including the ones that are widely considered terrible. This game just isn't fun. It's beautiful but also boring.
While the bosses had to be solved a certain way, it should've been mentioned that they did take the fairly boring combat mechanics and mix them up to the best of their ability. Sure, most of us will have a very similar experience fighting them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were disappointing. I genuinely think that the Kamek and Roy fights are among the more creative and/or better boss fights among all Mario games to date. On top of that, you have Lemmy, Ludwig, Wendy, Larry and certain mini-bosses who also kept it fresh with solid fights where they took the basic and lacking combat, and still managed to mix it up in one way or another to give us an entertaining boss fight.
Agreed with pretty much everything you said, though; great video
They are a point and click adventure game puzzle presented inside a rpg combat system. There's very little to the fight itself. First blast them with powerful cards, solve the adventure game puzzle to expose a weakness, and than blast them again.
Also, this is 100% personal bias but the moment I saw that all of the boss fights were going to be the Koopalings, I immediately lost all interest going into these fights at all. I personally cannot stand the Koopalings as characters so I was immediately dismissing them in my mind regardless of any unique gimmicks that they brought to the table. That's not a great mindset to have going in but it's another issue compounded on top of the existing issue of the general boss design.
I personally like the Koopalings, but they fall into the problem that the modern PM games don't create new characters or races, just recycling everything. One of the things I loved about Odyssey were the new locations with their own people living their own lives in them. There were hat ghosts, gardening robots, fashionista mermaids, round yetis, and French snails. Do we get characters like Mme. Flurrie or Vivian in Color Splash?
When I saw the Bob-omb in the Origami King video, I was hoping he'd be a proper partner, and he might still be, but I missed previous characters like Bombette and Admiral Bobbery. Sure, Bombette was just a pink Bob-omb with a fuse that looked like a ponytail, but at least they tried to make her a unique character, whereas the new guy is just a Bob-omb.
I agree that they should just go full on card game with it (Though I am thinking more literal card game than you seem to be, heh - Not necessarily as complicated as MTG or Hearthstone, but... In the vein of traditional CCGs rather than card augmented videogames) - the concept of card based battles suits the aesthetic, a full on card game rather than disposable cards would add in a progression and customization simultaneously without explicitly adding experience (Especially if you combined it with a deck point system, so each card is worth a specific amount of points towards the deck, similar to how miniature wargames have army point systems). Combine with the wider variety of action time events of earlier Paper Mario games, balancing the system correctly so that there isn't an obvious dominant strategy, and return to having an actual story with new characters rather than a bazillion toads and I think the franchise could be really interesting going in that direction.
This is the first time I've ever seen Chain of Memories' gameplay mentioned as a positive example of anything. :'D
Nenilein I still hold that the GBA version of CoM is better, mostly because it was designed for the GBA, and the card system doesn't really work in a full 3D environment.
I'd argue it didn't even work on the GBA to begin with, but that's just me, as someone who played the game in her mid-teens on a classic GBA and irreparably busted the shoulder buttons of said GBA doing so- (Though, Pokemon Ruby's berry mixing mechanic certainly didn't help either.)
Nenilein it has many issues gameplay wise, such as luck seeming to have a high factor in success, I guess unless you're unbelievably good at it maybe.
Other than that, it was still fun in many places, even if I mostly mashed for things like duels.
It doesn't sound like I'm too positive about it, but there was a certain level of timing and skill to knowing when to use a card or sleight as to not run out of cards at the wrong time, and preparing for future attacks sooner.
I'm happy that I played it, and I'd recommend it (if you have the collection anyways) at least to try it and give it a shot.
That said, I'm glad I'm done, because I'm tired of thinking before every attack, I just want something easier to play.
i played gba on level1 and the only thingnscrewing me over was the finalboss
If you're interested in Card Crafting look to Mystic Vale or Custom Heroes, these are card games where modify the cards themselves so they change over the course of the game. In Mystic Vale, cards are either weak or bad, so you're trying to craft cards that work past or with those limitations.This is such an easy levelling system. Have some basic cards. Over time you can change the elements, the number of targets etc. It would be these upgrades and new base cards that you find in the overworld.
Real talk man I just stumbled upon your videos via the kingdom hearts one and I can't stop watching. This stuff is amazing keep it up.
How to make this work:
Have a limited amount of times to use the attacks, and use cards to refill the count. Thing cards (like the Fan or Bone) Can just stay the same. This makes it so its harder to get the thing cards than it is to get regular attacks, therefore making the cards more balanced.
Hey, don’t forget the partners!
Bringing up chain of memories and beaten kaitos as examples of improving the card system are actually really great ideas I hadn't considered for this game, and I absolutely love both of those games and their systems. The systems present in color splash are so lazy and hollow and empty that literally any addition would improve it but making it into card rpg like that would be really neat imo. Though, I would still want the interconnected world and interesting new mario races and characters back, color splash and sticker star are still too homogeneous.
First name Hot last name Take, but I enjoyed Sticker Star and Color Splash just as much as the first 2 paper marios🤷
Awesome stuff!
0:36 this right here pretty much sums the main problem with the new paper mario games, including origami. With each installment they strip the rpg element more and more to it's bare bones. For f*cks sake they took the XP SYSTEM out in origami king, making the battles pointless since there was no reward to it. If you can't level up anymore is it really an rpg?
What if someone modded and worked with the game, improving on what they did and making it fun, interesting and engaging. And while they are at it, improve overworld abilities, build on the story, and add new areas while improving the areas. Basically, Color Splash Royal except it is definitely the definitive edition😋 😏. I don't have anything against the current game, as a matter of fact, I would buy the game again and play it through (not it specifically, I would still buy a Wii U though) 😇 though I am very curious/excited as to how the Origami King will be like. I am guessing they will bring stuff back like the partners, and the old system and that wheel seems like it will be a huge strategy thing.
I do know Baten Kaitos, good reference
I know Baten Kaitos!
What I have to wonder is how they took Sticker Star's combat, and made it even worse. At least sticker star had healthbars, and it didn't take 7 button presses to use an attack.
Nintendo Innovation at its finest.
"No, no, trust us, you'll love the motion controls. In fact, we know your gonna love them so much, we won't give you any other options! Aren't we grand."
Yeah; I've been playing through Sticker Star lately, and mildly enjoying it as a mixed bag but not nearly as much as the original two Paper Mario games, but I'm shocked to see that Color Splash actually seems to be a step backwards rather than forwards. I thought not being able to see your attacks' damage before you used them or learn enemy stats in any way was bad enough, but you could at least figure those out with trial, error, and attention; but now they remove damage numbers entirely and make enemy health bars harder to read?!? And in Sticker Star at least exploration is often rewarded with powerful stickers that you then face the dilemma of whether to use or save for later; it seems like they removed that in Color Splash by making cards abundant and lowering the difficulty to the point of triviality.
Firestar4041 That’s when the criticism comes in Nintendo. 😂
From what I've heard they aren't using the Sticker Star battle system in the next game.
Looks like Origami King could have high potential.
Fair points, but I still love Color Splash more simply because that game has given more insight on the Koopalings' characters than any other game.
Plus, I like the music more.
I hope the origami game leans closer to the classic style
You deserve more subs.
They wanted to change the combat system because that will be way too similar to mario & luigi series because both battle systems were the same for both sagas so by changing the combat on paper mario to bring a different experience because then any if the two will feel boring because is practically the same game just changing the theme,story and scenario so i support this change just a couple of little adjustments to polish it and thats it but since im not on the switch i dont really care of how nintendo will handle the next paper mario game’s combat system since there is no more mario & luigi games for the future
I really liked Color Splash, and I still do, but this video helped me understand why others don't. I agree that the first two Paper Mario games were far better though, and really hope we'll see a Paper Mario on Switch that lives up to them. I'm actually more saddened by the downgraded story and characters than I am about the gameplay (although I loved Color Splash's dialogue).
Gonna add a little thing here. The Shy Guys only die to the first hit of your weakest attack later in the game. Marioxs base attack DOES rise every time he gets a health upgrade.
Isn't that only when you get a first strike in the field? Do you have a source or a video because I haven't noticed or heard of that before.
it's only the first strike that get's stronger
Shy Guys have 4 HP if I remember correctly. So, after world 3 or so is done, they die in one hit to first strikes.
Also, the Hopslipper does of course do more damage than the basic jump, and it attacks 5 more times, which makes it more effective against stacks.