Man I would've killed for a professor like this. Don't get me wrong I liked a lot of my professors, but a class lead by this man would've been awesome.
I genuinely enjoy how you handle this information... I'm so new to enjoying this history and you digest the information so well. Thanks for your good work.
The Roman historian Tacitus wrote in 98 that Mercury (Óðinn?) was the chief God of the Germanics, Hercules (Þór?) and Mars (Freyr or Týr?) being also very important.
We can look at the weekdays, to see what their equivalents are. Dies Martis (Mars) became Tīwas dagaz. Tiwaz of course being the god which later became Tyr. Dies Mercuriī became Wōdanas dagaz, Wōdanas of course later becoming Odin. From this, it seems that even in 98AD, Odin had already displaced Tyr as chief God.
The Romans (and Greeks) made almost a science of equating various national gods to their own. The associations they made are ones I find extremely interesting in this context, as the recorded Norse texts are all of such very late date, even the parts that were old before they were written down are well post-roman iirc. So this is a glimpse at a much earlier form of the religion than the sagas can give. They did equate Odin with Mercury, which confuses many who might expect Mercury to equate to Loki instead. But it makes perfect sense if you see Odinism as a mystery cult, something that moved into the north in a manner perhaps bearing comparison to the spread of Mithraism and other mystery religions across the Roman Empire. Certainly seems consistent with his poetic portrayals as well. Mercury, or Hermes, was strongly associated with secret knowledge. Thor, as far as I know, was equated with Jupiter himself, the obvious connection being that each was associated with thunder. This is also consistent with the idea that even though Odin was acknowledged as the chief of the gods, his worship was an exclusive initiatory mystery religion not a popular cult. And Tyr was equated with Mars. Tyr was clearly seen at that point as the god of war. So that doesn't exactly support the idea that he was once the supreme god himself, but it isn't inconsistent with it either. He's still a major and respected deity with an important portfolio, so to speak. IF Odin replaced Tyr at some point, it obviously was before the Roman period, and thus before the earliest records that might substantiate the change. The Gothic bible survives, but it doesn't really tell us much since it is just that - a bible. There seems to be even less information recorded about Gothic paganism than Norse, perhaps enough to tantalize the imagination but not enough to prove any hypothesis.
@@hkaale1753 Somehow I don't get the connection. Mercurius certainly wasn't the Roman head of pantheon. If that equation is based on pecking order rather than attributes, it actually shows the opposite. There was a dies Jovis in the Roman week. And it was associated with Thor. That strongly suggests that they did this association by function rather than rank. Jupiter threw lightning, so they picked Thor.
Oliver Neukum It works like this: Tacitus says that the Germanic tribes primarily worships Mercury. Since Mercury in the weekday system is equated with Odin, the Germanic tribes worshipped Odin.
One of the reasons I prefer your take on these things is that you base your ideas on what is available from known ancient sources, not supposedly ancient sources for which no references exist prior to 1920, or even the ‘60s and ‘70s. While we don’t know much about viking-era Norse mythology, so I don’t mind the idea of creating things based on what we do know, the distinction between them must be made clear. There are far too many instances of people creating new things and claiming they’re from some ancient source nobody can find any reference to, which are then picked up and spread wide enough that people start to believe they’re real, simply because they’ve heard them from so many different sources, except all of those sources are referring to the same new creation. Anyway, it’s refreshing to hear what the original sources say, so thank you.
THANK YOU! I see the common misconception of this everywhere! Got into an argument with my hubby over this! Great as always! I always love getting notifications from you. You have helped quite a bit on my ASOIAF channel. Especially with Ragnarok. Thanks again! Sending this to hubby now. :)
I am absolutely convinced that Tiwaz is/was the original Allfather god. But you're right, Sir, it doesn't matter too much when it comes down to medieval norse sagas, because, well, then its Odin. And not only in Iceland, also on continental Europe and England (although probably Ing and Thunor were more prominent). Terry Gunnell wrote a nice paper about this topic named "Pantheon? What Pantheon?". He points out that Snorris description of the norse pantheon family mainly reflects the worldview of the elite in Iceland. And this elite was used to be under Odins protection, thus the Edda's focus might have been on that particular audience, while the common folk may rather saw Thor as Allfather or Allfather-like, since he provided for the most needs of the common people. So tte Edda might be a compilation of several myths independent of each other originally, and thus comparable to books like the finnish Kalevala.
Hello from NorCal, Professor. Thank you for another interesting, educational, insightful, and helpful video (among many others)! I was curious about this topic surrounding the Deity Tyr and related to the Germanic Deity Tiw. I appreciate you telling it like it is, based on the authentic sources we have. Stay blessed and be well.
Dear doctor Crawford I have purchased a copy of your poetic Edda and I would like to thank you for the amazing job you have done I have waited a long time for it I have seen every one of your videos and I hope you continue to
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall either Tacitus or Caesar writing that Mercurius is the god the Teutons (Roman era Germans/Germanic tribes) worship primarily. By analogy, that would be Óðinn/Woþinaz [mercredi ≈ day of Mercury > Wednesday ≈ day of Wēden/Woden], given how Roman scholars use culturally similar Roman gods as substitutes for other cultures' gods. This would mean that Odin was the chief god relatively early on, and took over during Pre-Germanic times.
A similar idea I believe exist for the history of Greek mythology, it is speculated that when the "greeks" lived on Minoa their chief God was some equivalent to Poseidon. (Assuming this is true) Maybe as the Minoans settled on mainland "Greece" they were influenced by the indo- European sky God and over time Zeus was created and established as the patriarch God. Maybe the same happened except in reverse for the norse, maybe Tyr was eventually replaced by another outside influence (or any number of occurrences) putting what we know as Odin at the top. This may also be why Tyr is given two lineages, one as the son of Jotuns and again as a son of Odin, maybe reflecting his "dethroning" of chief to a position of comparatively lesser importance. Keep in mind I'm not stating any of this as fact just speculation based on what I've heard and how I understand mythology.
as always when this subject of "gurus" comes up I have a passing curiosity - only passing - I'd much rather deal with serious genuine research & expertise - thanks as always Dr Crawford for another interesting & enjoyable video
Thank you for spreading academic research onto RUclips. In this field especially there is so many modern myths around, the horned helmets maybe being the most well known one. More researchers should share their knowledge with the world like you do. Against the superficial knowledge, especially on RUclips.
Thanks for the analysis doc! And as for the people let get bent out of shape, in the infinite words of Dr. Sidney Friedman of MASH, " Frank Burns needs to have a high colonic"! Same applies to those guys. Have a great week doc!
The only contemporary source I am aware of that discusses the Proto-Germanic Gods at all are Roman historians such as Tacitus and, if I recall correctly, he only gives us a handful of names of deities, none of which correspond to the Old Norse names. Tamfana, Nerthus, Tuisto and Alcis are the names I am recalling. As I have no background in Linguistics, I would not attempt to comment on which names might correspond with which Gods from the Viking Period. Also, since Tacitus never travelled to Germania, the names are probably Latinized.
Thank you.It is so refreshing to learn more about this subject in an objective way.You don't bring politics into it.You just stick to the point in a historically accurate manner.You are probably the most objective & reliable source of information on this subject on RUclips.Your uploads are much appreciated.
@@fcsdps6593 He looks like the main character in a movie where the US government uncovers some mysterious runes/artifacts left behind by the Norse gods (who may actually be aliens from another dimension) and they call on a specialist to tell them what it all means. Dr. Jackson Crawford: "What in the world is this?" Federal agent: "We were hoping... you would be able to tell us"
Dr. Jackson actually applies the scientific method principle of relying on what the evidence says when sharing his knowledge on the subject which he specializes in, not what we want the evidence to say -- as all scholars should do no matter their area of study.
Shruggz Da Str8-Faced Clown Yeah. It’s what makes me appreciate Dr. Jackson even more. I wish there were more scholars like him (hopefully I’ll remain as honest as he as I pursue academia).
For those who follow the Proto-Germanic route, Tyr- Tiwaz, Odin-Wodanaz, Freyje and Freyr are, the chief Deities, among a few others, respectfully who are worshiped.
I think that you are right in a way. Unfortunately, older lore is lost to us. I also think in the older Germanic ages gods were more tribal and less consolidated. Tyr may have been chief deity in one place, Odin in another. when we talk Proto-Germanic and Indo-European it would be fair to look in a broader scope. I think the shining sky god or Skyfather of the more eastern European pantheons sheds light, but everyone seems eager to ignore that. Yes, Odin is chief deity of specifically the Norse pantheon, but I cannot agree that it makes him the chief deity anywhere else. Unfortunately, unless some other sources come to light, we can only guess. Great video, very informative.
Big fan and I can't believe I missed this video when it came out I own most if not all of the books that you have mentioned that you've done and I love the Wanderers Havamal. That being said I need the differ slightly you are absolutely correct it is not responsible to make a declarative statement that Tyr is the chief of the Norse Gods -absolutely true. All your statements are true Is from the perspective of a scholar and I love your rigid adherence to what is provable and has been discovered. I don't however think and it's a tiny quibble that it's Irresponsible to speculate that Tyr was at one time chief for the Germanic or Norse Gods. As long as at the same time you may clear there's no provenance for it any longer. Of course I may be Influenced by my greater devotion to the Celtic gods of Ireland wherein the chieftain seems to have changed hands more times than the proverbial hot potato.
My last name is Tørres which as far as I have been able to find out, means Thors arrowshaft / or lightningbolt. It is has the same origin as the other Norwegian names: Torgils and Torjus. Interesting to have such an old name :-)
Yes and...no. Depends which side of history one prospects come from. For some of us, who follow the Proto-Germanic, I believe that Tyr might be the original.
Thank you for clearing that up. I came across some of the videos of those "Gurus" and was already highly questioning their reasoning. There was no basis on any evidence beside some loose connections in linguistics and conflations of gods from different pantheons. Pretty much all the reasoning you mentioned.
It's a strawman to say that comparative theology and linguistics is used to 'prove' Tyr was chief of the gods at time of writing of the Eddas. Comparative study is used to make educated guesses at a past culture without such strong evidence. It's clear that the prominence of syncretistic gods varied by time and place - take Ingui Frey's importance at Gamla Uppsala compared to his relative absence in Icelandic sources for instance.
I for one am here only for what is known and attested. I think the reconstruction of Indo-European religion is fascinating but so little is known. Neither was the understanding of any particular God universal over a large area or time. You can make a case for Thor being the Chief of the gods with the Perkunas/Fjorgyn/Thor connection.
It would be very interesting to see you make a video about Proto-Norse. I'm not sure if you have any knowledge on that topic, but I would assume at least some, considering your profession.
I'm a relatively new Norse pagan, and I've been considering making Tyr my chief deity, specifically his aspects of law and justice, as well as his association with fenrir as I have a thing for wolves. Any advice or suggestions for how to venerate tyr?
in a way it could be said that Tyr is more equivalent to Dius Fides/ Semo Sancus of the Romans more than Jupiter/Zeus. there are many similarities, the connection to oaths and oath breaking and laws (like the contract of Tyr and fenrir and the consequences). there is also the sky connection like in Tyr and the Dius name connection.
This is a good reminder that the word "Norse" shouldn't be used as a blanket term that also describes everything that preceded that culture and time period. Hopefully, that's where most of the bad conjecture is coming from... While there is no source material to describe any sort of transition, Odin is already well-established as chief god by the Norse period. So even if Archeologists are keeping an eye out for this important benchmark, if it can still be found, it will certainly be far older than the materials we've been looking at. If stories can be cognate as well, I would guess that the missing source matetial would likely predate the development of the Irish mythological cycle, since those stories contain the tale of a chieftain who was disqualified from leadership after losing an arm. That's when and where I'd start looking, anyway. And then I'd also have to remind myself that cultures cross-pollinate, and the idea of finding anything could still be meaningless.
Odin's gradual ascendancy over Tyr may be shown by Odin's transformation into being a war God with other facets and Tyr's subsequent decline as a war god.
Týr is from the Southern realm, Oðinn is from the Northern Realm? Maybe it could be more solidified in Sami and old Slavic myths? Could it be found in the NE of old Europe?
I wonder if Tyr has an Celtic tie. MacIntyre means of the Land, if i remember correctly, so Tyre would be land. There is also the rule that a high king/chief had to be blemish free. Thus when his hand was bitten off by the Fenrir Wolf he lost his kingship. Just a thought, that would mean he could have been a high chief above Odin up until losing his hand and the Celts did live south from most Icelandic countries which would make him a southernly king.
Dr Crawford, please keep the "dogma" to a minimum for sure. I appreciate that you deliver academic truth!!!! and leave the speculations for us to work out. You sir are a much needed, and valuable resource in this realm.
I always found it interesting that in the "genealogy" of the gods in the Prose Edda intro, Thor is Odin's elder in Troy. And even though that is contradicted in the following sections, it just seems a bit like an odd inconsistency to me.
Rather than type an entire essay since it's a RUclips comment, I'll just say for conversation sake that the more you read about pre-Norse mythology, the Indo-European connection, and you really study those gaps and holes where history falls off and picks back up again, I believe you see that most of our basis for learning about these Gods and this ancient Norse mythos is directly through a Roman lens, which means the entire belief system gets forced into the same pantheon hierarchical structure that the Romans adapted for their own Gods, which they adapted that pantheon system from the Greeks who came before them. Once you just completely erase all of that and cut it all off, those holes and historical gaps start to be much more interesting, and you can see there is more reason to believe that the Norse gods have a similar ranking/organizational structure as the Hindu gods, once you look at the Norse mythos like a Hindu structure, where all Gods are constantly competing, some better than others, some have moments of great upset or great victory, you remove the entire idea of a 'pantheon' and the Norse mythos starts making a lot more sense. I believe with this ancient lost religion, we are creating mysteries that are an invention of our own interpretation of the mythology through that Greco Roman pantheon lens. We might be chasing rainbows that are not even there to begin with.
Good stuff, not many of us drop essays like that for random eyes to pry. Rest assured my aunt wrote on the similarities of the Eddas and Vedas at Cambridge back in the 80s I think it was. It isn't new ideas by any stretch, but they can be buried in the archives of academia. She wow'd some professors of her day but it's not like the idea dissemination is free range, most of us are tracing faded foot prints of those who came before us. Though you should also consider how in those days, you had to know your lineage for a dozen or more generations by recital to be socially accepted and handle legal matters. I know for example, my Irish clan side goes back to the 'Gens of the Calf Goddess' and it took some digging, but they refer to a very local, regional, sea and land fairy-queen who is -only- spoken of in local legends and has her own rock she dwells in or under. Much like with India as you mention it, they have countless deities and shrines and many go to their local foundations. Also makes sense to me since it's such a melting pot, Naga and Jat, all that.
A question not related to this video I just came up with. I'm wondering about your opinion on the Icelandic move Hrafninn Flýgur. In Sweden at least it is about the only Icelandic you normaly get exposed to unless you go looking for it. With the phrase Þungur hnífur being about the only Icelandic you know. I wondering if in your opinion how authentic it feels.
BTW I read a book on Witchcraft many years ago and it talked about 'The War of the Witches". I don't think this is an appropriate title for the conflict but that's not the point, apparently in Denmark (can't remember the period) their was a war between Norseman over who should be worshipped as Cheif God, Thor or Odin. Thor was considered a more popular deity because he's a 'people's God' and a workmans God. Odin was considered grym an strict bit like a 'poker faced' Shaolin Master fro the old Kung Fu films. That's the interpretation I got anywa.
The story of Tyr and Fenrir contrasted with that of Ragnarok gives some credence to the belief that Odin, by the time Snorri was writing, had over the years, assumed some of Tyr's importance and role in this context? After all, it makes no sense whatsoever for Fenrir, after escaping his deception and binding, paradoxically at the hand(s) of Tyr, to finish his story by devouring Odin instead of Tyr....It would be with Tyr that he had unfished business.
Wolf Mauler Odin was the mastermind in binding Fenrir after he learned what he did from the Norns; tyr just raised him. Edit: also, I believe that business was finished between t and f after the binding and subsequent separating of Tyr's hand.
I have always had a fascination for etymology and those proto norse cognates of Tiwaz, Zeus, and Deus even seem not to be there for no reason. The medieval sources of Norse legend are not archeology, and for me where archeology and legend meet are at Sutton Hoo, where that burial reeks of Beowulf and is thoroughly situated in that world recorded a few centuries before the Icelandic material but nonetheless with the same cast of characters essentially, indeed going back the same cast of characters as the Ilead which seems to have slipped in somewhere to the celtic mythology as well Nennius and all that.
It may help for you to understand, Celtic and Latin split off from the same language branch (or so it's said) and frankly a good bit of Celtic is well preserved Indo-Euro. When your words match up in Vedic with less changes than most of the languages in-between, it can show. It would be interesting if the Sutton Hoo burial and materials were Beowulf's, wouldn't it?
There's also the simple explanation that our Ancestors very likely had their tribal favorite god(s). Let's say some tribe took Odin as the most important one, for whichever reason. Where as others saw Tyr that way.. or Thor, Heimdall, Freyr, Idun, Nehallenia, etc. etc. etc. That does not a change in the mythos we have make. And I think this is just another false dichotomy.
Yeah I find that interesting. Whoever wrote it down or told the best stories out of all the skalds and bards got to be the 'victors who wrote history'. I can only imagine the more archaic debates, since this is also something astrologers could argue over, not just politicians and academics and priests (I imagine) or however the days were named. Either way Odin's Mercurial nature made him better chief to most Nordic and Germanic folk than Thor's except Thor was the every day man's go-to guy. So while Odin is renown, Thor's regard is widespread.
I had read a published source that proclaimed Odin, Tyr, and Thor were the principal gods of the Norse pantheon. While i understood Odin, and Thor, it seemed Tyr was a bit of a stretch. I suspected that a bit of Christian eisegesis was occuring, in laying a claim to the importance of three Norse gods but falling short of calling them a Heathen trinity. What was missing was the understanding that Tyr was a cognate of Zeus. Yet still, that alone doesn't mean much, and is pure speculation as to his prominence.
Tyr is an old word also, only sentenc i now that use it is. "Jag tyr mig till dig" . In which tyr means somthing like the word "anförtror" meaning blinded trust for somthing or somone. The word in singular is just "ty".
Apparently that this related to old norse þýða and proto-germanic þiudijaną which means something like "make friendly" sproget.dk/lookup?SearchableText=ty (In Danish) en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%BE%C3%BD%C3%B0a
Год назад+4
My assumption is that Tyr could have been a main god during the Bronze Age. It is based on the fact that Dievs is a main god in Latvian folk songs and there is a bronze age discovery of Sun chariot - also known as Trondheim chariot. And in Latvian folk songs the very same kind of "chariot of Sun" is is depicted also described as chariot pulled by "horses of Dievs" in a chariot with Daughters of Sun in our folk songs, called "Dainas" (Kam tie zirgi, kam tie rati Pie Dieviņa namdurvīm? Dieva zirgi, Laimas rati, Saules meitas braucējiņas) which makes me believe that Latvian folk songs represent the Bronze Age version of European pagan pantheon and beliefs, which is lacking Odin (except Usins having somehting similar but not exactly the same features of Odin/Wotan) and not exactly having a Thor/Perkons the role of the main god as well.
Hey, that's an interesting video, as always. There's something that bothers me though. I agree with almost everything you said, besides the part about not having proof that Tyr was once the highest in the hierarchie. Of course, we can never be completely sure of anything, but we have to choose the most probable version of events. What would you say about kennings describing Odin as ""Victory Tyr" or "Hanged-Tyr" in Skáldskaparmál? Tyr must have had such an important and leading role, that "god" has become a synonym of his name. Can't we consider then, that Tyr, whose name conotes with "god" was the god of gods? Just a question. Maybe you have already talked about it in one of your videos?
JaKub MarciN that must have been an extremely long time ago, long before the Norse, then. Because it would even have to be before the first century when Tacitus comments on the Germanic gods. Here he mentions Odin as chief god still. So even as far as Proto-Germanic goes, it must have been a very early form of Proto-Germanic people that had Tyr as the chief god.
Thor quite clearly has some of the characteristics of Zeus as a sky, lightning and thunder god, chariot-driver, heavy drinker and slayer of giants/titans. Zeus wielded the Keraunos, Thor had Mjölnir. If Zeus is a cognate, could Týr have been one the alternative names or nicknames for Thor, or even the main name as Týr Þórr like Jupiter Tonans or Zeus Brontios? Did Týr accidentally get separated into a minor separate deity sometime before the Eddas but the thunderer aspect always remained more popular?
Jackson Crawford is very learned. I'll remember this next time my fellow country men say "American's are dumb." I mean....I try talking about this stuff with the people around me and they don't get it. : (
I think the Germanics would have adopted the external common root dieus as a name for one of their gods of lesser power to show that their lesser gods were on par with the supreme gods of other tribes, as Tyr seems portrayed most often as not the strongest or wisest god but the most courageous, making it seem he is the "defensive tackle" of the team, to me at least. Just saying that would fit the character of the Germanic tribes as I see them, that way they could feel they had these other better Gods, Odin and Thor, whom I do think went back and forth as being seen as the leader, and still have a God based on old common roots who could be mentioned if the other tribes acted like they had something Germans didn't have.
It really seems to be a mess doesn't it? Only a few sources with plenty of internal contradictions and contradictions among them. Great video as always.
I argue for you all the time. I’m so sick of people fighting me about how you are wrong, when they won’t pick up any book aside from Dan McCoys book. Smh...
Tyr is my second favorite Æsir(following Loki), mostly for Neil Gaiman's portrayal of him in his book based on the Myths. With Sigyn being my favorite Ásynja. It's unfortunate there's not much more about these characters then a few mentions. If they were once prominent or influential deities, it's all been lost to time. 😩 Thanks for the informative videos!
The phrase 'internet guru' is one that comes to mind every time I assess an online resource. Is this writer an authoritative source or are they an internet guru? It's an invaluable test.
Isn't Zeus himself considered by some as a usurper of older gods like Athena? I suppose it's also interesting to compare Norse gods to the Celtic god Lugh. You could compare him to Odin, Tyr or even Loki since their names are similar. Apparently the Romans would say that Odin is Mercury and that Lugh is also Mercury and leave it at that.
That depends. During the classical age of the greeks, yes, Zeus kind of usurped the role of high king of the gods. But, go back in time, around the days of the mycenaeans... and everything might change.
@@cahallo5964 I think what he is referring to is how the Mycenaean Greeks were effectively or potentially a different 'people' or at least their culture was radically changed, as their culture did collapse, the 'Greek Dark Age' refers to the era between when Homer supposedly existed and when his works were written down from the oral tradition.. since the 'Greek Dark Age' was a period of mass illiteracy. Technically, from my research and brain-sponging, for example; Artemis, Apollo, potentially Dionysius and definitely Orpheus were of Thracian origin. The 'Orphic Cult' comes from Thrace, preceeding.. one of the Greek cultures and like the Romans, the Greeks adopted pantheon roles or names from them. Zen Garcia apparently/supposedly translated a text called the Book of Atam and Eua from Thrace. Very old, and these people had stunning creations we can sometimes still see today. I keep an open enough mind on such topics for that reason, the tides of culture largely depend on those who retain and then spread knowledge around waves of decay and collapse. I also don't want to neglect mentioning there is a Sabazios, Dionysius-Zeus cultural angle involving Phrygians. I don't swear by this stuff (or have every bit of these many-languages memorized), some of it is from Wikipedia milling, but I recall reading over it and reference it at times. It has some association to the Adonis / Adonai figure-cults, I think? Makes me want to go review it again but this is actually the basis of - this is where to look, please read into it yourself, then there's less room for 'web gurus' and more room for us all to speak at a similar level. I won't call it exactly academic but maybe one day we'll have actual sources to study by and not fifth hand information.
@@jairoukagiri2488 Unless you have a time machine I'll doubt it will ever get better than fifth hand information, sadly. or not, a part of me really enjoy the boldness of myths and such, I am entertained by "web guru" theories and stuff like that, we can't really for sure 100% so I believe all of them equally and I share the one I think makes the most sense. if that makes sense.
Hey Doc, great video as always. I have a quick question: is the -tyr ending to some of Odin's names is a cognate with Tyr's name or does it come from somewhere else and just happens to look/sound similar? Thanks for the brilliant content
Nick Verbree -tyr just means "God", which is also what "Tyr" means. It's the same as Christians calling their god "God". This does not mean that other deities with "god" in their name are related.
@@user-pm1gb2eo1s Apparently "Grey" is another word for wolves in old Norse. I need Prof. Crawford to elaborate on it. He mentioned it in an older video.
jax parra So the “bitch (female dog) of the Norns”, is what you’re curious about? I don’t think there’s much else to the word _grey_ other than that it means a “female dog.” It seems to stem from Proto-Germanic _*grawją_ and is a pretty standard word. It has no connection with English _grey_ though. If you’re asking about the “female dog of the Norns”, then that definitely sounds like a more interesting topic that I have no clue about
Could it be that it is just a translation/wording issue? To me chief god in a multitheistic religion means there is a hierarchy (the Boss might not be the most popular). But could it be that (as i think was/is common in multitheistic religions) individuals or tribes or a buch of people fully aware of the "hierarchy" chose one god or a couple of them and worship them more than the others. Which doesn't change the ranking, they just prefer certain ones, or for certain times or issues. (Worshipping a god of war in times of war more than the other gods, or as a soldier... As most gods have/had a field of specialty people concentrated on them for certain things. While the chief god is the chief, but not specialized in anything. Its like today: if you go to the hospital, you aknowledge that the director of the hospital is the "chief" but you want a doctor to treat your reason for beeing there) And if one capable of writing, or recording a story encounters such a tribe the notion could emerge that they considered another god as "chief" by just misunderstanding of the writer, or no applicable wording to explain the situation.
I want to know if these "gods" were actual people who lived thousands of years ago. According to some sources, Odin was a great chieftain who was later deified. It's totally plausible, in my opinion. I just want to know if it's true!
Ancient Greek author Euhemeros published this theory allready in the 4th century BC. Not about Odin, but the Greek gods, of course, but I don't think that makes a diiference in that regard.
If people think speaking truth to power is a recipe for attracting abuse, they should try speaking truth to pretensions-of-power. Those folks got malice and time to spare.
I wonder how many people know Tyr from D&D Forgotten Realms like me. Tyr stood against the other gods for great justice and was somehow demoted or de-glorified. In that setting, the people liked Tyr and his influence was encroaching on other lawful gods. If you somehow mixed Thor and Jesus into "The Wounded Crusader" you'd get Tyr, aka: god of beefy paladins.
Man I would've killed for a professor like this. Don't get me wrong I liked a lot of my professors, but a class lead by this man would've been awesome.
I genuinely enjoy how you handle this information... I'm so new to enjoying this history and you digest the information so well. Thanks for your good work.
I can't hear you without your hat on.
Good video, I wish there was more surviving sources of Tyr, and Heimdal.
@Ungrateful Peasant Would you like,, to know more? I can tell you things you are not supposed to know! If you do reply YES here.
Same! Heimdallr, Týr, and Bragi are some of my favorite characters from Norse Mythology.
Same! I wonder what great stories we are all missing :( and even some gods we don't know about
Good on you Jackson this world needs more facts...
Excellent video as always. My interest has always been Tyr, though info and text is limited.
Quick draw was masterfully executed. Thanks Doc.
The Roman historian Tacitus wrote in 98 that Mercury (Óðinn?) was the chief God of the Germanics, Hercules (Þór?) and Mars (Freyr or Týr?) being also very important.
We can look at the weekdays, to see what their equivalents are.
Dies Martis (Mars) became Tīwas dagaz. Tiwaz of course being the god which later became Tyr.
Dies Mercuriī became Wōdanas dagaz, Wōdanas of course later becoming Odin.
From this, it seems that even in 98AD, Odin had already displaced Tyr as chief God.
The Romans (and Greeks) made almost a science of equating various national gods to their own. The associations they made are ones I find extremely interesting in this context, as the recorded Norse texts are all of such very late date, even the parts that were old before they were written down are well post-roman iirc. So this is a glimpse at a much earlier form of the religion than the sagas can give. They did equate Odin with Mercury, which confuses many who might expect Mercury to equate to Loki instead.
But it makes perfect sense if you see Odinism as a mystery cult, something that moved into the north in a manner perhaps bearing comparison to the spread of Mithraism and other mystery religions across the Roman Empire. Certainly seems consistent with his poetic portrayals as well. Mercury, or Hermes, was strongly associated with secret knowledge.
Thor, as far as I know, was equated with Jupiter himself, the obvious connection being that each was associated with thunder. This is also consistent with the idea that even though Odin was acknowledged as the chief of the gods, his worship was an exclusive initiatory mystery religion not a popular cult.
And Tyr was equated with Mars. Tyr was clearly seen at that point as the god of war. So that doesn't exactly support the idea that he was once the supreme god himself, but it isn't inconsistent with it either. He's still a major and respected deity with an important portfolio, so to speak.
IF Odin replaced Tyr at some point, it obviously was before the Roman period, and thus before the earliest records that might substantiate the change. The Gothic bible survives, but it doesn't really tell us much since it is just that - a bible. There seems to be even less information recorded about Gothic paganism than Norse, perhaps enough to tantalize the imagination but not enough to prove any hypothesis.
It could be great to watch a video about Tacitus.
@@hkaale1753 Somehow I don't get the connection. Mercurius certainly wasn't the Roman head of pantheon. If that equation is based on pecking order rather than attributes, it actually shows the opposite. There was a dies Jovis in the Roman week. And it was associated with Thor. That strongly suggests that they did this association by function rather than rank. Jupiter threw lightning, so they picked Thor.
Oliver Neukum It works like this:
Tacitus says that the Germanic tribes primarily worships Mercury. Since Mercury in the weekday system is equated with Odin, the Germanic tribes worshipped Odin.
One of the reasons I prefer your take on these things is that you base your ideas on what is available from known ancient sources, not supposedly ancient sources for which no references exist prior to 1920, or even the ‘60s and ‘70s. While we don’t know much about viking-era Norse mythology, so I don’t mind the idea of creating things based on what we do know, the distinction between them must be made clear. There are far too many instances of people creating new things and claiming they’re from some ancient source nobody can find any reference to, which are then picked up and spread wide enough that people start to believe they’re real, simply because they’ve heard them from so many different sources, except all of those sources are referring to the same new creation. Anyway, it’s refreshing to hear what the original sources say, so thank you.
THANK YOU! I see the common misconception of this everywhere! Got into an argument with my hubby over this! Great as always! I always love getting notifications from you. You have helped quite a bit on my ASOIAF channel. Especially with Ragnarok. Thanks again! Sending this to hubby now. :)
Dr. Crawford, do you have any plans to translate the text detailing the Viking martial arts/dance combination, the Capo Edda?
Underrated, I laughed.
That linked together two of my interest. Nice job.
I am absolutely convinced that Tiwaz is/was the original Allfather god. But you're right, Sir, it doesn't matter too much when it comes down to medieval norse sagas, because, well, then its Odin. And not only in Iceland, also on continental Europe and England (although probably Ing and Thunor were more prominent).
Terry Gunnell wrote a nice paper about this topic named "Pantheon? What Pantheon?". He points out that Snorris description of the norse pantheon family mainly reflects the worldview of the elite in Iceland. And this elite was used to be under Odins protection, thus the Edda's focus might have been on that particular audience, while the common folk may rather saw Thor as Allfather or Allfather-like, since he provided for the most needs of the common people. So tte Edda might be a compilation of several myths independent of each other originally, and thus comparable to books like the finnish Kalevala.
Hello from NorCal, Professor. Thank you for another interesting, educational, insightful, and helpful video (among many others)! I was curious about this topic surrounding the Deity Tyr and related to the Germanic Deity Tiw. I appreciate you telling it like it is, based on the authentic sources we have. Stay blessed and be well.
Dear doctor Crawford I have purchased a copy of your poetic Edda and I would like to thank you for the amazing job you have done I have waited a long time for it I have seen every one of your videos and I hope you continue to
Dr. Jackson, could discuss the Norse system of morality? These old gods always seem to be doing terrible things, at least to modern sensibilities.
All ancient gods did thing we would consider terrible. Look at the Greek gods, for instance, or the bible.
Im your newest supporter on Patreon. Keep up the amazing work, Dr. Crawford!
Great video! Basing our understanding on factual sources, is the only sensible way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall either Tacitus or Caesar writing that Mercurius is the god the Teutons (Roman era Germans/Germanic tribes) worship primarily.
By analogy, that would be Óðinn/Woþinaz [mercredi ≈ day of Mercury > Wednesday ≈ day of Wēden/Woden], given how Roman scholars use culturally similar Roman gods as substitutes for other cultures' gods.
This would mean that Odin was the chief god relatively early on, and took over during Pre-Germanic times.
you may not be Asatru But I love your videos , Thank you for bringing us the real stuff
Excellent video as always!
Long may you continue to give us the facts! Also love that end bit where we see you walking back into shot to get your camera
A similar idea I believe exist for the history of Greek mythology, it is speculated that when the "greeks" lived on Minoa their chief God was some equivalent to Poseidon. (Assuming this is true) Maybe as the Minoans settled on mainland "Greece" they were influenced by the indo- European sky God and over time Zeus was created and established as the patriarch God. Maybe the same happened except in reverse for the norse, maybe Tyr was eventually replaced by another outside influence (or any number of occurrences) putting what we know as Odin at the top. This may also be why Tyr is given two lineages, one as the son of Jotuns and again as a son of Odin, maybe reflecting his "dethroning" of chief to a position of comparatively lesser importance. Keep in mind I'm not stating any of this as fact just speculation based on what I've heard and how I understand mythology.
as always when this subject of "gurus" comes up I have a passing curiosity - only passing - I'd much rather deal with serious genuine research & expertise - thanks as always Dr Crawford for another interesting & enjoyable video
Thank you for spreading academic research onto RUclips. In this field especially there is so many modern myths around, the horned helmets maybe being the most well known one. More researchers should share their knowledge with the world like you do. Against the superficial knowledge, especially on RUclips.
Good stuff man. Quality content. Thanks a lot. Always good scenery!
Would love more in the Poetic Edda. And on early mythology, poems and texts.
Jackson Crawford I love your work, keep it up!
Thanks for the analysis doc! And as for the people let get bent out of shape, in the infinite words of Dr. Sidney Friedman of MASH, " Frank Burns needs to have a high colonic"! Same applies to those guys. Have a great week doc!
The only contemporary source I am aware of that discusses the Proto-Germanic Gods at all are Roman historians such as Tacitus and, if I recall correctly, he only gives us a handful of names of deities, none of which correspond to the Old Norse names. Tamfana, Nerthus, Tuisto and Alcis are the names I am recalling. As I have no background in Linguistics, I would not attempt to comment on which names might correspond with which Gods from the Viking Period. Also, since Tacitus never travelled to Germania, the names are probably Latinized.
Tuisto - Tiwaz* > Tiw aka Tyr
Nerthus - Nerhtuz* > Njordr
@@elgranlugus7267 Well, you can certainly see where Roman fell off that beaten path, or stayed on it.
Thank you.It is so refreshing to learn more about this subject in an objective way.You don't bring politics into it.You just stick to the point in a historically accurate manner.You are probably the most objective & reliable source of information on this subject on RUclips.Your uploads are much appreciated.
You remind me of the guy from Stargate lol, thanks for informing us again!
Dr. Jackson.
@@RAMB0VI The plot døst thicken
He really looks like him in this video lol
@@fcsdps6593 He looks like the main character in a movie where the US government uncovers some mysterious runes/artifacts left behind by the Norse gods (who may actually be aliens from another dimension) and they call on a specialist to tell them what it all means.
Dr. Jackson Crawford: "What in the world is this?"
Federal agent: "We were hoping... you would be able to tell us"
"You lie All Father, you lie..."
The Great Wolf
Good to know that there are folks who finagle with sources in other scholarly communities, not just the sciences.
Dr. Jackson actually applies the scientific method principle of relying on what the evidence says when sharing his knowledge on the subject which he specializes in, not what we want the evidence to say -- as all scholars should do no matter their area of study.
Shruggz Da Str8-Faced Clown Yeah. It’s what makes me appreciate Dr. Jackson even more. I wish there were more scholars like him (hopefully I’ll remain as honest as he as I pursue academia).
I appreciate your objectivity.
For those who follow the Proto-Germanic route, Tyr- Tiwaz, Odin-Wodanaz, Freyje and Freyr are, the chief Deities, among a few others, respectfully who are worshiped.
tip of the hat sold me. subscribed.
I think that you are right in a way. Unfortunately, older lore is lost to us. I also think in the older Germanic ages gods were more tribal and less consolidated. Tyr may have been chief deity in one place, Odin in another. when we talk Proto-Germanic and Indo-European it would be fair to look in a broader scope. I think the shining sky god or Skyfather of the more eastern European pantheons sheds light, but everyone seems eager to ignore that. Yes, Odin is chief deity of specifically the Norse pantheon, but I cannot agree that it makes him the chief deity anywhere else. Unfortunately, unless some other sources come to light, we can only guess. Great video, very informative.
Love your channel.
Big fan and I can't believe I missed this video when it came out I own most if not all of the books that you have mentioned that you've done and I love the Wanderers Havamal. That being said I need the differ slightly you are absolutely correct it is not responsible to make a declarative statement that Tyr is the chief of the Norse Gods -absolutely true. All your statements are true Is from the perspective of a scholar and I love your rigid adherence to what is provable and has been discovered. I don't however think and it's a tiny quibble that it's Irresponsible to speculate that Tyr was at one time chief for the Germanic or Norse Gods. As long as at the same time you may clear there's no provenance for it any longer. Of course I may be Influenced by my greater devotion to the Celtic gods of Ireland wherein the chieftain seems to have changed hands more times than the proverbial hot potato.
Cheers Doc C.
My last name is Tørres which as far as I have been able to find out, means Thors arrowshaft / or lightningbolt. It is has the same origin as the other Norwegian names: Torgils and Torjus. Interesting to have such an old name :-)
Oh finally thanks for clearing out the matter
Yes and...no. Depends which side of history one prospects come from. For some of us, who follow the Proto-Germanic, I believe that Tyr might be the original.
Thank you for clearing that up.
I came across some of the videos of those "Gurus" and was already highly questioning their reasoning.
There was no basis on any evidence beside some loose connections in linguistics and conflations of gods from different pantheons. Pretty much all the reasoning you mentioned.
It's a strawman to say that comparative theology and linguistics is used to 'prove' Tyr was chief of the gods at time of writing of the Eddas. Comparative study is used to make educated guesses at a past culture without such strong evidence. It's clear that the prominence of syncretistic gods varied by time and place - take Ingui Frey's importance at Gamla Uppsala compared to his relative absence in Icelandic sources for instance.
I for one am here only for what is known and attested. I think the reconstruction of Indo-European religion is fascinating but so little is known. Neither was the understanding of any particular God universal over a large area or time. You can make a case for Thor being the Chief of the gods with the Perkunas/Fjorgyn/Thor connection.
It would be very interesting to see you make a video about Proto-Norse. I'm not sure if you have any knowledge on that topic, but I would assume at least some, considering your profession.
Way to set the record straight.
The first time I heard you say "which" in this vid, I was instantly focused on your pronunciation of WH words. Lol
I'm a relatively new Norse pagan, and I've been considering making Tyr my chief deity, specifically his aspects of law and justice, as well as his association with fenrir as I have a thing for wolves. Any advice or suggestions for how to venerate tyr?
Kort og bra argumentering du er den soldat
I have a deep love for both gods!
Could you expand more on the Garmr and Fenrir points. Do you believe Garmr is another depiction of Fenrir or are they separate beings?
in a way it could be said that Tyr is more equivalent to Dius Fides/ Semo Sancus of the Romans more than Jupiter/Zeus. there are many similarities, the connection to oaths and oath breaking and laws (like the contract of Tyr and fenrir and the consequences). there is also the sky connection like in Tyr and the Dius name connection.
This is a good reminder that the word "Norse" shouldn't be used as a blanket term that also describes everything that preceded that culture and time period. Hopefully, that's where most of the bad conjecture is coming from...
While there is no source material to describe any sort of transition, Odin is already well-established as chief god by the Norse period. So even if Archeologists are keeping an eye out for this important benchmark, if it can still be found, it will certainly be far older than the materials we've been looking at.
If stories can be cognate as well, I would guess that the missing source matetial would likely predate the development of the Irish mythological cycle, since those stories contain the tale of a chieftain who was disqualified from leadership after losing an arm. That's when and where I'd start looking, anyway.
And then I'd also have to remind myself that cultures cross-pollinate, and the idea of finding anything could still be meaningless.
Odin's gradual ascendancy over Tyr may be shown by Odin's transformation into being a war God with other facets and Tyr's subsequent decline as a war god.
Týr is from the Southern realm, Oðinn is from the Northern Realm? Maybe it could be more solidified in Sami and old Slavic myths? Could it be found in the NE of old Europe?
Thank you!
I wonder if Tyr has an Celtic tie. MacIntyre means of the Land, if i remember correctly, so Tyre would be land.
There is also the rule that a high king/chief had to be blemish free. Thus when his hand was bitten off by the Fenrir Wolf he lost his kingship.
Just a thought, that would mean he could have been a high chief above Odin up until losing his hand and the Celts did live south from most Icelandic countries which would make him a southernly king.
Many of the gods have “blemishes”. Tyrs hand, Odins eye, Loki’s lips, heimdalls ear(maybe) and Thor has a rock in his head.
Dr Crawford, please keep the "dogma" to a minimum for sure. I appreciate that you deliver academic truth!!!! and leave the speculations for us to work out. You sir are a much needed, and valuable resource in this realm.
No intro sir..... lol your making my search for ancestors way of life. And religious practice a lot easier to comprehend
I always found it interesting that in the "genealogy" of the gods in the Prose Edda intro, Thor is Odin's elder in Troy. And even though that is contradicted in the following sections, it just seems a bit like an odd inconsistency to me.
It's interesting that Tyr's father is a Jotunn, and Zeus' father is a titan. Rather than both or one of their fathers being a God.
Rather than type an entire essay since it's a RUclips comment, I'll just say for conversation sake that the more you read about pre-Norse mythology, the Indo-European connection, and you really study those gaps and holes where history falls off and picks back up again, I believe you see that most of our basis for learning about these Gods and this ancient Norse mythos is directly through a Roman lens, which means the entire belief system gets forced into the same pantheon hierarchical structure that the Romans adapted for their own Gods, which they adapted that pantheon system from the Greeks who came before them. Once you just completely erase all of that and cut it all off, those holes and historical gaps start to be much more interesting, and you can see there is more reason to believe that the Norse gods have a similar ranking/organizational structure as the Hindu gods, once you look at the Norse mythos like a Hindu structure, where all Gods are constantly competing, some better than others, some have moments of great upset or great victory, you remove the entire idea of a 'pantheon' and the Norse mythos starts making a lot more sense. I believe with this ancient lost religion, we are creating mysteries that are an invention of our own interpretation of the mythology through that Greco Roman pantheon lens. We might be chasing rainbows that are not even there to begin with.
Good stuff, not many of us drop essays like that for random eyes to pry.
Rest assured my aunt wrote on the similarities of the Eddas and Vedas at Cambridge back in the 80s I think it was. It isn't new ideas by any stretch, but they can be buried in the archives of academia.
She wow'd some professors of her day but it's not like the idea dissemination is free range, most of us are tracing faded foot prints of those who came before us.
Though you should also consider how in those days, you had to know your lineage for a dozen or more generations by recital to be socially accepted and handle legal matters. I know for example, my Irish clan side goes back to the 'Gens of the Calf Goddess' and it took some digging, but they refer to a very local, regional, sea and land fairy-queen who is -only- spoken of in local legends and has her own rock she dwells in or under.
Much like with India as you mention it, they have countless deities and shrines and many go to their local foundations. Also makes sense to me since it's such a melting pot, Naga and Jat, all that.
A question not related to this video I just came up with. I'm wondering about your opinion on the Icelandic move Hrafninn Flýgur. In Sweden at least it is about the only Icelandic you normaly get exposed to unless you go looking for it. With the phrase Þungur hnífur being about the only Icelandic you know. I wondering if in your opinion how authentic it feels.
even in Proto-Germanic/Common Germanic times, it was probably Odin, since Roman sources describe the Germans primarily worshiping Mercury, not Zeus
well this is a particularly beautiful Jackson today
BTW I read a book on Witchcraft many years ago and it talked about 'The War of the Witches". I don't think this is an appropriate title for the conflict but that's not the point, apparently in Denmark (can't remember the period) their was a war between Norseman over who should be worshipped as Cheif God, Thor or Odin. Thor was considered a more popular deity because he's a 'people's God' and a workmans God. Odin was considered grym an strict bit like a 'poker faced' Shaolin Master fro the old Kung Fu films. That's the interpretation I got anywa.
The story of Tyr and Fenrir contrasted with that of Ragnarok gives some credence to the belief that Odin, by the time Snorri was writing, had over the years, assumed some of Tyr's importance and role in this context? After all, it makes no sense whatsoever for Fenrir, after escaping his deception and binding, paradoxically at the hand(s) of Tyr, to finish his story by devouring Odin instead of Tyr....It would be with Tyr that he had unfished business.
Wolf Mauler Odin was the mastermind in binding Fenrir after he learned what he did from the Norns; tyr just raised him.
Edit: also, I believe that business was finished between t and f after the binding and subsequent separating of Tyr's hand.
It makes sense if he blamed the one in charge Odin. Rather than Tyr whom he previously got along with.
I have always had a fascination for etymology and those proto norse cognates of Tiwaz, Zeus, and Deus even seem not to be there for no reason. The medieval sources of Norse legend are not archeology, and for me where archeology and legend meet are at Sutton Hoo, where that burial reeks of Beowulf and is thoroughly situated in that world recorded a few centuries before the Icelandic material but nonetheless with the same cast of characters essentially, indeed going back the same cast of characters as the Ilead which seems to have slipped in somewhere to the celtic mythology as well Nennius and all that.
It may help for you to understand, Celtic and Latin split off from the same language branch (or so it's said) and frankly a good bit of Celtic is well preserved Indo-Euro. When your words match up in Vedic with less changes than most of the languages in-between, it can show.
It would be interesting if the Sutton Hoo burial and materials were Beowulf's, wouldn't it?
Oh ya, I THINK (hopefully) you can put the snowmobiles away for the summer. What a crazy winter, it's good to see the lakes full again.
There's also the simple explanation that our Ancestors very likely had their tribal favorite god(s).
Let's say some tribe took Odin as the most important one, for whichever reason.
Where as others saw Tyr that way.. or Thor, Heimdall, Freyr, Idun, Nehallenia, etc. etc. etc.
That does not a change in the mythos we have make. And I think this is just another false dichotomy.
Yeah I find that interesting. Whoever wrote it down or told the best stories out of all the skalds and bards got to be the 'victors who wrote history'.
I can only imagine the more archaic debates, since this is also something astrologers could argue over, not just politicians and academics and priests (I imagine) or however the days were named.
Either way Odin's Mercurial nature made him better chief to most Nordic and Germanic folk than Thor's except Thor was the every day man's go-to guy. So while Odin is renown, Thor's regard is widespread.
I had read a published source that proclaimed Odin, Tyr, and Thor were the principal gods of the Norse pantheon. While i understood Odin, and Thor, it seemed Tyr was a bit of a stretch. I suspected that a bit of Christian eisegesis was occuring, in laying a claim to the importance of three Norse gods but falling short of calling them a Heathen trinity. What was missing was the understanding that Tyr was a cognate of Zeus. Yet still, that alone doesn't mean much, and is pure speculation as to his prominence.
Tyr is an old word also, only sentenc i now that use it is. "Jag tyr mig till dig" . In which tyr means somthing like the word "anförtror" meaning blinded trust for somthing or somone. The word in singular is just "ty".
Mattias Viberg that's really interesting
Apparently that this related to old norse þýða and proto-germanic þiudijaną which means something like "make friendly"
sproget.dk/lookup?SearchableText=ty (In Danish)
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%BE%C3%BD%C3%B0a
My assumption is that Tyr could have been a main god during the Bronze Age. It is based on the fact that Dievs is a main god in Latvian folk songs and there is a bronze age discovery of Sun chariot - also known as Trondheim chariot. And in Latvian folk songs the very same kind of "chariot of Sun" is is depicted also described as chariot pulled by "horses of Dievs" in a chariot with Daughters of Sun in our folk songs, called "Dainas" (Kam tie zirgi, kam tie rati Pie Dieviņa namdurvīm? Dieva zirgi, Laimas rati, Saules meitas braucējiņas) which makes me believe that Latvian folk songs represent the Bronze Age version of European pagan pantheon and beliefs, which is lacking Odin (except Usins having somehting similar but not exactly the same features of Odin/Wotan) and not exactly having a Thor/Perkons the role of the main god as well.
Hey, that's an interesting video, as always. There's something that bothers me though. I agree with almost everything you said, besides the part about not having proof that Tyr was once the highest in the hierarchie. Of course, we can never be completely sure of anything, but we have to choose the most probable version of events.
What would you say about kennings describing Odin as ""Victory Tyr" or "Hanged-Tyr" in Skáldskaparmál? Tyr must have had such an important and leading role, that "god" has become a synonym of his name. Can't we consider then, that Tyr, whose name conotes with "god" was the god of gods?
Just a question. Maybe you have already talked about it in one of your videos?
Sounds like compelling evidence to me. All Crawford is actually saying is that they don’t have enough surviving evidence to conclude anything.
JaKub MarciN that must have been an extremely long time ago, long before the Norse, then. Because it would even have to be before the first century when Tacitus comments on the Germanic gods. Here he mentions Odin as chief god still. So even as far as Proto-Germanic goes, it must have been a very early form of Proto-Germanic people that had Tyr as the chief god.
Drengrliga as always, well done sir
Thor quite clearly has some of the characteristics of Zeus as a sky, lightning and thunder god, chariot-driver, heavy drinker and slayer of giants/titans. Zeus wielded the Keraunos, Thor had Mjölnir. If Zeus is a cognate, could Týr have been one the alternative names or nicknames for Thor, or even the main name as Týr Þórr like Jupiter Tonans or Zeus Brontios? Did Týr accidentally get separated into a minor separate deity sometime before the Eddas but the thunderer aspect always remained more popular?
Jackson Crawford is very learned. I'll remember this next time my fellow country men say "American's are dumb." I mean....I try talking about this stuff with the people around me and they don't get it. : (
I think the Germanics would have adopted the external common root dieus as a name for one of their gods of lesser power to show that their lesser gods were on par with the supreme gods of other tribes, as Tyr seems portrayed most often as not the strongest or wisest god but the most courageous, making it seem he is the "defensive tackle" of the team, to me at least. Just saying that would fit the character of the Germanic tribes as I see them, that way they could feel they had these other better Gods, Odin and Thor, whom I do think went back and forth as being seen as the leader, and still have a God based on old common roots who could be mentioned if the other tribes acted like they had something Germans didn't have.
I find that funny because the 'defensive tackle' sacrificed his hand for the team. Seems Germanic alright!
So what does the brakteats say (much earlier
sources than Snorri) ?
Nothing, there’s one with a hand being bitten but it’s not identified as tyr nor given any further emphasis.
It really seems to be a mess doesn't it? Only a few sources with plenty of internal contradictions and contradictions among them. Great video as always.
I argue for you all the time. I’m so sick of people fighting me about how you are wrong, when they won’t pick up any book aside from Dan McCoys book. Smh...
I had to look up Dan McCoy and still have to say, who?
Tyr also have three days of the week connected to him. Odin only have 1.
Well said.
Do they have norse electives at uccs?
Meanwhile Tiw:
I used to be king... But now i'm just a meaningless warrior.
I’ll bet this dude’s students have the crazy hots for him. Handsome bastard.
Brilliant :)
Tyr is my second favorite Æsir(following Loki), mostly for Neil Gaiman's portrayal of him in his book based on the Myths. With Sigyn being my favorite Ásynja. It's unfortunate there's not much more about these characters then a few mentions. If they were once prominent or influential deities, it's all been lost to time. 😩
Thanks for the informative videos!
The phrase 'internet guru' is one that comes to mind every time I assess an online resource. Is this writer an authoritative source or are they an internet guru? It's an invaluable test.
First time I've seen him without the hat and yeah he looks exactly like Ryan Gosling
Was Tyr widely worshiped among the norse? I doubt as much as Thor but just curious
looking like harry potter as an adult
Isn't Zeus himself considered by some as a usurper of older gods like Athena? I suppose it's also interesting to compare Norse gods to the Celtic god Lugh. You could compare him to Odin, Tyr or even Loki since their names are similar. Apparently the Romans would say that Odin is Mercury and that Lugh is also Mercury and leave it at that.
That depends.
During the classical age of the greeks, yes, Zeus kind of usurped the role of high king of the gods.
But, go back in time, around the days of the mycenaeans... and everything might change.
@@elgranlugus7267 Elaborate please
@@cahallo5964 I think what he is referring to is how the Mycenaean Greeks were effectively or potentially a different 'people' or at least their culture was radically changed, as their culture did collapse, the 'Greek Dark Age' refers to the era between when Homer supposedly existed and when his works were written down from the oral tradition.. since the 'Greek Dark Age' was a period of mass illiteracy.
Technically, from my research and brain-sponging, for example; Artemis, Apollo, potentially Dionysius and definitely Orpheus were of Thracian origin. The 'Orphic Cult' comes from Thrace, preceeding.. one of the Greek cultures and like the Romans, the Greeks adopted pantheon roles or names from them.
Zen Garcia apparently/supposedly translated a text called the Book of Atam and Eua from Thrace. Very old, and these people had stunning creations we can sometimes still see today. I keep an open enough mind on such topics for that reason, the tides of culture largely depend on those who retain and then spread knowledge around waves of decay and collapse.
I also don't want to neglect mentioning there is a Sabazios, Dionysius-Zeus cultural angle involving Phrygians. I don't swear by this stuff (or have every bit of these many-languages memorized), some of it is from Wikipedia milling, but I recall reading over it and reference it at times. It has some association to the Adonis / Adonai figure-cults, I think?
Makes me want to go review it again but this is actually the basis of - this is where to look, please read into it yourself, then there's less room for 'web gurus' and more room for us all to speak at a similar level. I won't call it exactly academic but maybe one day we'll have actual sources to study by and not fifth hand information.
@@jairoukagiri2488 Unless you have a time machine I'll doubt it will ever get better than fifth hand information, sadly.
or not, a part of me really enjoy the boldness of myths and such, I am entertained by "web guru" theories and stuff like that, we can't really for sure 100% so I believe all of them equally and I share the one I think makes the most sense.
if that makes sense.
I sort of got the feeling, and no I can't quote sources, that Thor was the chief god, along with Freyr.
Thor was often more popular. There are regional variations, but in some places at least.
Hey Doc, great video as always. I have a quick question: is the -tyr ending to some of Odin's names is a cognate with Tyr's name or does it come from somewhere else and just happens to look/sound similar?
Thanks for the brilliant content
Nick Verbree -tyr just means "God", which is also what "Tyr" means. It's the same as Christians calling their god "God". This does not mean that other deities with "god" in their name are related.
All i know from the stories ist that my ancestors prayed to ziu
Who are the Grey Norna?
jax parra Could you elaborate?
@@user-pm1gb2eo1s Apparently "Grey" is another word for wolves in old Norse. I need Prof. Crawford to elaborate on it. He mentioned it in an older video.
jax parra So the “bitch (female dog) of the Norns”, is what you’re curious about? I don’t think there’s much else to the word _grey_ other than that it means a “female dog.” It seems to stem from Proto-Germanic _*grawją_ and is a pretty standard word. It has no connection with English _grey_ though.
If you’re asking about the “female dog of the Norns”, then that definitely sounds like a more interesting topic that I have no clue about
Wish your volume was louder
Could it be that it is just a translation/wording issue?
To me chief god in a multitheistic religion means there is a hierarchy (the Boss might not be the most popular). But could it be that (as i think was/is common in multitheistic religions) individuals or tribes or a buch of people fully aware of the "hierarchy" chose one god or a couple of them and worship them more than the others. Which doesn't change the ranking, they just prefer certain ones, or for certain times or issues.
(Worshipping a god of war in times of war more than the other gods, or as a soldier... As most gods have/had a field of specialty people concentrated on them for certain things. While the chief god is the chief, but not specialized in anything. Its like today: if you go to the hospital, you aknowledge that the director of the hospital is the "chief" but you want a doctor to treat your reason for beeing there)
And if one capable of writing, or recording a story encounters such a tribe the notion could emerge that they considered another god as "chief" by just misunderstanding of the writer, or no applicable wording to explain the situation.
I want to know if these "gods" were actual people who lived thousands of years ago. According to some sources, Odin was a great chieftain who was later deified. It's totally plausible, in my opinion. I just want to know if it's true!
Ancient Greek author Euhemeros published this theory allready in the 4th century BC. Not about Odin, but the Greek gods, of course, but I don't think that makes a diiference in that regard.
If people think speaking truth to power is a recipe for attracting abuse, they should try speaking truth to pretensions-of-power. Those folks got malice and time to spare.
I wonder how many people know Tyr from D&D Forgotten Realms like me. Tyr stood against the other gods for great justice and was somehow demoted or de-glorified. In that setting, the people liked Tyr and his influence was encroaching on other lawful gods. If you somehow mixed Thor and Jesus into "The Wounded Crusader" you'd get Tyr, aka: god of beefy paladins.
I was wondering if they where the same Tyr.