@@ruslanhoncharenko2179 Also Silent King and The Stormlord are apparently fighting each other, yet we have no details beyond the fact that they are apparently fighting.
What?, no he's active, he was a big part of the pariah nexus campaign, he's in conflict with both the mechanicus and a splinter sect of necrons led by the storm lord, he's BEHIND the pariah nexus junk he's doing things
@AvitusNox how will they sell more Necrons without some narrative 🤔 oh wait Gw cause they are cool and people will get them for that one reason just write the damn lore lol
Son of the Forest came out April 2023 really hoped we’d at least have another book announcement too look forward too. It def feels like he’s being wasted currently
And to an extent, the Son of the Forest was sort of retconned by the DA Codex not even a full year later and there has been zero effort to expand that plot line, or Vash'torr, or the Vaults of Terra issues (The Throne and fate of the Fabricator of Mars). Like honestly, official Black Library barely carries more weight than fan fiction.
They dropped the ball hard and I have a feeling this is indicative of the future of Warhammer. A primarch returns for a single novel and then never gets another one. Gulliman gets multiple because it was novel (pun intended) at the time and he is.... An Ultramarine.
@@ruslanhoncharenko2179You don’t even have to update a narrative with a new book. It can literally just be a day in the life of gorillaman. GW is allergic to going into any detail about anything.
Fulgrim, angry that the brother he murdered has come back plots to attack Gulliman. Cypher, for mysterious reasons, tips off the Lion. The Lion forest walks a bunch of Dark Angels in to save Guilliman from Fulgrim's attack and it takes both primarchs to take out ascended Fulgrim
something Dorn coulda done alone during the siege of terra... but fulgrim ran like a bitch. G man was never even in the top half of the primarchs when it came to fighting but Lion was. Tho i guess it depends on how much the lion degraded over his sleep... even if he was able to beat Angron. I can only assume Angron is a better fighter then Fulgrim.
@@toxictouch1988 tbf Fulgrim wasn't trying. If he went all out Dorn would be super dead, Dorn's super power is borring the ever living shit out of Fulgrim.
@@toxictouch1988 what are you talking about? Dorn even said fulgrim was playing with him and could have killed him with absolute ease? do you even read the lore lol
That's nothing new. GW always does it to keep wars going. It's the same with older wars like 3rd war of Armageddon or the devastation of baal GW would start a new big war only to put it on hold as they go back to old wars that.
The writers and production team are working to two different schedules and none of the higher ups give a toss about uniting the aspects of the ip as a hole. I would argue this has been a thing since 7ed.
He is not by any measure of the imagination the greatest. He is the best duelist, but thats about it, as basic as he can be. In all honesty, its among the worst. Shame, as the Dark Angels are my favorist Loyalist faction. But since Lion returned, is so meh, he was much better in the narrative dead ...
@@KaratePathHe is the best or top 3 at pretty much everything that isnt social skills. There is a reason why the emperor told him that he would have been the best choice for warmaster
Best plan is have Lion as a slayer of beasts gets into a war with WAAAGH Ghazghkull gives both characters something to do and creates a credible basis for Ghazghkull to ascend to that next power tier
Would love for him to become the Green Knight of 40k, finding these lop sided and futile battles, then bringing in the Redeemed to turn the battle. Whether as an individual, a squad or a strike force. Really lean into him being a fey like being
That’s what he’s been set up for, and he’s been doing that for The Unforgiven (we got literally a single sentence on it in our codex) but beyond that, we’ve got nothing
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus And I think to a degree that, is exactly why their stumped. They gave him a unique ability for a niche that was already filled. And that problem will continue with the other Loyalist Primarchs, they can try to make them unique in lore or gameplay. But at the end of the day there is so much already established that it weighs everything else down
In the Dawn of Fire series, the Indomitus crusade hasn't yet crossed the rift into imperium nihilus. In devastation of baal, and darkness in the blood, they newly have. In son of the forest, primaris Dante meets the lion. Each 3 book series are clearly at different points in the timeline. We're gonna see more of the lion, it might just take some time for the books to fall into line with each other
Just make Imperium Secundus 2: Eletrict Boogaloo. Make Lion the new Warmaster, Dante keeps Nihilus and Roboute admin everything. Bring back the amazing conflict we got in the Heresy books, make the cooperation between the 3 not so easily, you can throw, Cawl, Leontus, Yvraine, Luther and Abbadon, the Daemon Primarchs, Kbanda too to move the narratives of their factions amd voilá.
On one side I'm happy that GW don't rush the story and don't focus everything on the primarchs. But it also absolutely sad that the lions return gas so few impact at this moment. There is so much potential for conflicts within the imperium. I hope some of the great BL authors will write about him
Not with how Mike Brooks has written him. The Lion we see in 40k is not the same as the one we see in 30k, he's a hell of a lot weaker, he's a lot less commanding, and he's a lot less resistant to chaos corruption. All the Inquisition would have to do to control the Lion is tell him he's being a meany and he'd probably apologize profusely and go on a monologue about how toxic he was when he was younger
I don’t think GW have dropped the ball by any means, they just haven’t actually thrown it. Possible out of caution. My hope is that when Dawn of Fire is finished they will start releasing a proper new narrative based on 9th and 10th, I can see strands drawing together but the pace is agonising especially without any Horus Heresy stuff to look forward to
I've actually been reading the Gathering Storm narrative and it has been so frustrating when I see how big that was eventually leading to Guilliman's return and seeing just how underwhelming the Lion's has been. At the very least the events surrounding Guilliman's return spanned 3 campaign books, 5 pre-return novels(written by Chris Wright), and the entire Dawn of War series which is still ongoing. The impact of Guilliman's impact was being felt before his return and afterwards. The Lion just was so underwhelming. All the hype with the Arks of Omen was just dropped. So disappointing.
@@zackzintho48 That's because 8th edition was one big jump forward for the setting narrative, updating the status quo. Pacing returned to usual 40k as it was before
I think it would be cool to see a rematch between Guilliman and Fulgrim Roboute on his knees, about to loose and at the last moment Lion emerges, taunts and challenges Fulgrim to a duel
Idk if the Lion wins that he struggled against Angron and only won because he taunted Angron and got his to make rash move. Fulgrim is fast and on par with the lion. Maybe old lion stood a chance but old man lion is going to struggle
@BENR8108 well yah better chance then but I'm the scenario above Gman was about to die and Lion was going to 1v1 to save him. It's very likely he would actually win legitimately with both the emperors sword is scary enough to deter daemons. In all honestly loyalist will always solo daemon primarchs hell Logan Grimnar soloed Magnus so writting is silly
too be honest, I think the Forest walking thing is the problem. They might have a problem of fitting in a Primarch that can teleport freely all over the galaxy without him being able to easily solve most problems of the Imperium
Tbf it's limited to Lion only being able to traverse to where his sons are. You can't for say have him teleport into Macragge's Honour unless some Dark Angels or Cypher are there.
@@gamechanger8908 really? I thought he only had to picture the destination. Well it was a while ago since I read the book so might remember it wrong. That makes it a bit better, but it still mean that you could station some Dark Angels on the most important worlds and if they are ever attacked, instant Lion.
Guilliman is the leader and statesman, it made sense for him to be the head of the Imperium. The Lion is the consummate general and warrior, so it makes sense for him to be on the warpath. One of those is much more interesting lore wise.
This reasoning is accurate but at the same time, makes absolutely no sense. Making bonehead narrative decisions because another faction has historically been more profitable is such a limited way of thinking. They're going to lose all new fans they've made over the past year.
No, the Ultramarines got their Primarch and that's what matters. Now all the other chapters can get their Chapter Equivalent Primarch and we'll just keep getting stories about the Ultramarine version.
It's more about a big HQ to show off your new refreshed army then it ever was about lore. Black Library is an afterthought of an afterthought and I feel bad for them cause I'm sure they are told X range is dropping write a reason it's happening idc how you get 1 book
It would actually be so funny if Lion was like “well we need a government here to organise ourselves” and he started like sort of a regency in his father’s place, and then he ended up starting a crusade as well, and guilliman’s and Lion’s crusades just sort of stumbled into each other
@ You know what’s crazy? The Dark Angels have contracts and alliances with the Tau. Imagine the potential of what they can do with the Lion giving the ok
I'm waaay behind on current lore...was there a book that explained 'how' Lion came back, and what his reaction was to all the little DAs now wearing dark green armor?
The specifics as to who exactly awakened him remain murky - he awoke with amnesia so he doesn't know for sure - but when he returned to the tabletop over a year and a half ago, it was covered in the Arks of Omen campaign book and an accompanying novel called Son of the Forest. SoF was very well-received and we see him regaining consciousness and gaining his strength back as he 'shakes off the rust' throughout the book and meeting some of his Fallen sons. There is also commentary in the DA codex that came out earlier this year as to how he is set up on the Rock and interacts with the modern DAs, etc. He's basically forming a protectorate around Nihilus and Forestwalking (er... Lion can teleport all over the place now) to areas where he's needed most.
This is why I keep saying that they seemingly full-send refuse to actually move the story at all. They're terrified they'll accidentally kill the series. Its almost like they're worried that moving the setting at all will collapse it. When your business model is to do basically nothing but leave massive unresolved cliffhangers everywhere at all times, resolving a cliffhanger is a dangerous business proposition.
That is how 40k operated for all it's multiple decades existence. It's a setting first, not a story, so myriads of plotlines are created, some to entice "yourdudes" gamers some to develop slooowly over years and editions. Warhammer most natural state is status quo and all those new fans that joined after 8th edition seems to don't know that
Seriously why is this a shock to anyone? This is what GW does! It hypes shit up to sell a couple models then they never touch it ever again in our lifetime.
I think one of the big problems is his Forestwalk ability. He can just essentially teleport anywhere, and it allows him to avoid meeting with people that he would have had been forced to interact with otherwise.
I would like to see a follow up book after arcs of Oman about the lion intergrating the risin into the current day dark angels, and his relationship with them. Like imagine you been doing what you though your primarch wanted for 10 thousand years and he just shows up with the fallen and tells you to stop hunting them. Like azrael was actually seething. One of the major things I’ve been hoping to see was the lion confront modern day dark angels about what theyve become especially Asmodai
Fully agree with you. Also, they didn't really explain how and why the Lion came back. Guilliman got a whole narrative with Cawl, the Armour of Fate, and the Ynnari. The Lion, somehow, just returned...
Hello there, just a couple of comments. I think with the release of the Emporer's Children, that has rather taken the priorty for GW. I could be wrong, but this does seem to me the direction GW is pursuing. Hope the Lion gets some attension soon. Than you for your time on this matter.
I could only imagine a great threat approaching the galaxy. Would love to see Gulliman and the Lion team up while Vulkan returns to pull The Great Khan from the Void.
I honestly think 10th edition narrative was thrown off because of Space Marine 2. Until the game was announced it seemed like the pariah nexus was where the game was going. Just a thought 😅
If, as rumors say, Leman Russ is expected to return next year, it's possible that they're taking a while to give the Lion a story arc because he'd be strongly related to the Wolf King.
!!!!!!!!! We also need a refresh on what is going through Dante’s head…. Meeting two primarchs, he has changed, shape of the legion and the transformation of their solar system…….!!!!!!!!
It seems like they were talking about Roboute every freaking week when he came out, so yeah, it is weird that the Imperial story seems to be completely on hold at the moment. I don't think it's that they don't know what to do with him, I think it's that they're just waiting for a moment to strike, say, 11th edition will likely have many more major story developments, and for some reason, they are clutching their pearls on Lion meeting Guilliman, for example.
I have a suspicion that they’re holding off until we get a proper model update for the Ravenwing to be the ‘tip of the spear’ for him to strike out with. Not to mention we need some resolution about how the purpose of the Ravenwing & Interrogator Chaplins fit in the chapter going forward with the Lion offering reconciliation to many of the Fallen
tbh something I don't think is really discussed enough, is that 40k is largely written to be a very stagnant setting. From a galaxy wide perspective not much really happens. each new edition there is some sort of incursion of whatever big bad into what is effectively just a "made up" sector - they'll make up a couple of imperial planets or systems to "fall" - but it is very rare for anything of note to actually happen. This guys win a war, those guys win a war but what actually changes? Very little! What "big things" have ever really happened? The fall of Cadia? (yet somehow Cadians are still the "main" Imperial Guard units...?) Technically Guilliman returning and becoming the leader of the Imperium is a big thing. And that's probably about it? There's been 13 odd Black Crusades, and generally speaking little has happened as a result beyond the new rift. As you said, the traitor primarchs returning it seems a lot "more" happens - but again they come back, and get a cool story about attacking this world or that world - and actually have very little real impact on the setting. The Lion coming back has the potential to have an impact but GW will want to be careful about what that impact actually is. in some ways it could be why the Lion was the first to return, the secretive nature around the Dark Angels as a whole means the the Lion can "deal" with that whole thing and generally slink around in the shadows for as long as GW need before actually doing anything with it. Tis why the Khan and Russ could be a good choice to return - they can return and instead of going for the bro hug, can just yolo themselves off to some sort of war - writing cool stories that actually don't achieve anything ;op It is likely because GW are a model selling company and realistically any big lore events would technically have an impact on models. It suits GW that ol' Rowboat Girlyman remains the leader of the Imperium, because it maintains the status quo of the Ultramarines being the poster boys for 40k ;op I doubt we'll see much "happen" until GW feels a need to do a big refresh ;) Tis why I doubt anything will happen with Vashtor's ascension to godhood - its a cool story narrative to suck people in, but it happening is too important, so I imagine they'll use it as an overarching narrative to bring various other characters into the story before ultimately failing ;)
This. Many new fans came after 8th edition, which was big status quo update for the setting and probably expect constant "happenings" MCU-style. When in reality Warhammer is a setting first, not some story, myriads of plot threads and characters are there for people to immerse themselves in and some of them may slowly develop over years and editions. Current way of things is how Warhammer always operated for decades, for GW Lion returning was basically yesterday, there is no immediate desire to focus on him rn, so they turned their gaze into advancing Pariah Nexus camping that will result in another status quo and so on and so on.
It's crazy how they haven't done a book about the lion meeting guilliam again. That book would print money and make fans super excited in the lore again. But na lets just release one lion book and leave it cold for coming up to two years....
What if they are going to do the primarch meet up after the next loyalist primarch returns. Could you imagine Bobby, Lem, and Johnson seeing each other for the first time in millenia.
Not only have they not done anything with him, they’ve actively gone backwards since his introduction and undone what good they already had done with him. Son of the Forest was fantastic, and was a much needed shake up to the status quo of the Dark Angels, who had become the most stagnant and uninspiring of all the first founding chapters, being dumbed down to the one note obsession with the fallen, and nothing else for decades now. The Risen and the Lion’s desire to fix his mistakes, and the mistakes that led to in his sons, was a great idea, especially with the Risen being a substantial and growing force consisting of first born marines with the advanced equipment of the Horus Heres/Great Crusade era, in a time when everything has become the grey molasses of Primaris slop. And then GW releases the codex, and the Lion is still allowing the obsessive hunt for the Fallen, there’s no mention of the Risen or their even being acknowledged by the DA’s and the successors, and the Risen themselves are now just generic Primaris bladeguard variants.
The next big narrative should be Guiliman and The Lion together against the Tyranids in a huge action to push them back and give the imperium more breathing room.
I loved you idea of replicating the East and West Roman empire - Gman in the south and Lion + Sanguineous in the north. They could purge and then tension at the end between the two with a chance of civil war again!
Calling it right now that 12th edition will be Coteaz starting a civil war as a result of Imperium Secundus being revealed and Lion, Guilliman and Dante are accused of doing it again.
The Lion should go on a Crusade into the webway to find Jaghatai Khan and expand upon the lore of The Golden Throne and what it truly is. Having The Khan come back with a dual model kit that has a jetbike option would be so sick. They could also do the same for Kor'sarro Khan. There is so much cool shit GW could do. I hope they flesh out the other 'legions' soon. I'm excited for Fulgrim's return, but I really want to see the Undivided daemon primarch's come back. Making Lorgar return to the materium would be such a good move for GW to then build upon a massive narrative. GW could also have Perturabo return to enact a war against Angron and the World Eaters.
My guess is that they're busy at GW's hq with discussing where they want to go with the Lion . And probably even with the return of another Loyalist Primarch once Fulgrim and his sissies gets released . It will be indeed worth the wait , I think . And yeah , give me more novels with the Lion .
They dropped the lion knowing he was a cash cow and would herald a range refresh then said yah we made our chunk kf change, oh the lore? Nah you mean what primarch next.
So the theory I’ve liked to believe is that when fulgrim comes back and if they bring back another primarch I want it to be Russ and for them all to meet and come to an understanding that guilliman runs the imperium while the lion and Russ get assigned to crucial crusades that are vital for guillimans plans. Guilliman represents the two headed eagle of the imperium leading from above while the lion and Russ both representing their respective apex predators hunting the threats to the imperium
I feel like the Lion’s narrative should be clear… dealing with Luthor who is another character they have completely forgotten about after supposedly amassing a large force of fallen after escaping the rock. This could lead to lion and g-man meeting up imo
I feel like it all started with the Silent King. Brought back, no time given to his narrative, then Angron - no narrative development, then The Lion - same thing. Then a new edition is launched, and before that story can even be explored properly they are going to release Fulgrim! No time taken to flesh out the story any more, just new release after new release to keep the money train going.
I hope they do more with the tyrannic war. For me personally it would be epic if G-man and the Lion met during a massive battle/campaign against the tyranids.
I don't think they're struggling with what to do with him, I think they have the narrative beats planned out and we haven't got to his yet. Just like the Tyrannic War, just like Nachmund, just like Chalnath, just like Pariah Nexus, the focus on something, then move to the next, and eventually come back to it.
I think a Lion and Dante book series (maybe 2-3 books tops) would be fascinating especially to help educate the Lion and all the massive amounts of xeno and traitor dung that has been thrown at the fan in 10k years. It would be a really interesting story, especially if zabrial was there and maybe still narrating
It’s not even ongoing narrative, there seemed to be no communication between the son of the forest / arks of omen teams and the codex teams. There should’ve been a bunch of stuff about the lion in the codex or more mentions
I feel like Black Library is trying to reconfigure now that the Heresy is broadly done. After TEATD Vol 3, there has been very little in the way of new releases this year, and the books that have come out are all over the place. Also seems like some authors are working on AoS books as well for the start of the new edition. It seems like some of the big name writers have been quiet too, which probably means they're working on it.
The books The Son of the Forest and Devastation of Baal and the Arks of Omen happen after Guilliman crosses over the into imperium nihlus, in the Dawn of fire books, we're still waiting for Guilliman to cross over the rift, so it may be a work in progress...
Was listening to the dawn of fire series they mention rumors of the lion returning, but it wasn’t just the lion it also was the Khan Corvus, Vulcan. He might’ve heard that the lion returned, but he just thinks it’s a rumor. 2:56
Honestly? Id like to see the lion have his time where hes bordering on traitor, as he sees what the imperium has become and becomes so dissapointed he either leaves temporarily with his chapter or flies into a rage
Lack of involvement? He is not type of guy who update status on social media every time he active, He is more guy who make results then move on, no fanfare, no celebration because there's much things to do
Next time we see the Lion, the first thing I want to see is him showing up right in front of the imperial palace to see the Emperor real quick, and THEN going to talk to Guilliman
He will kneel in front of the golden throne sword in hand and shield in the back while the myst of the caliban forest surround them then Lion said: father I have returned tell me which path should I follow. While they "talk" Custodes outside are going crazy we need lord Guilliman to come Then Guilliman will arrive to see a figure in a hood green cloak in shock the only thing that will come out of his mouth is brother End of scene 😅
I think the problems are two-fold: First, GW's continual hemming and hawing about actually advancing 40K's story. Like you ask if Guilliman knows that Lion is back. When are you asking about? During Dawn of Fire? During the Fourth Tyrannic War? Secondly, a lot of the story beats that come naturally for Lion (or any returning loyalist Primarch) are already explored through Guillman: coming to terms with the present-day Imperium, the conflict between their secular upbringing and everyone's desire to worship them as demigods, how they relate to the 40K Emperor, etc. I'd probably enjoy something that was basically 'Dark Imperium but it's Lion El'Johnson instead of Bobby G.', but a lot of people wouldn't.
It goes beyond the Lion, they seemingly have no idea what to do with any character or faction atm. All the big narratives in 40k since the Lions return have stalled or lead to nothing
I think what's going on is they are spinning their wheels. GW wants Primarch returns to be big events, Loyalist and Traitor. Fulgrim's the next one who we know is coming. I can imagine them wanting to do Guilliman and Lion vs Fulgrim. Or maybe even waiting so it's not two loyalist Primarchs reuniting, it's three. There's no lack of things for a Primarch to do. Chaos has Abaddon's crusade, and the Daemon Primarchs returning. Perturabo and Lorgar will be returning. Ghaz's WAAAGH is only building momentum, and there's no garauntee that even more Tyranids won't arrive.
Don't worry everyone, we will find out tons of new info when 10th's three year cycle is finished and they cap it off with three $50 "Campaign" books that advance the narrative 10 full days.
I think Roboute must know as Lion was with Dante for considerable amount of time and as he is in charge of Nihilus, he must be in regular contact with Guilliman (I am sure Roboute made some reporting templates for Dante :D ). Also I would LOVE for Roboute naming Lion Warmaster, as he should have always should have been
Speaking of Silent, no one has been more Silent than the Silent King since their wildly anticipated and supposedly galaxy defining return…
Last update of his involvement was fairly recent, Pariah Nexus campaign was full of Necrons and Silent King
@@ruslanhoncharenko2179 Also Silent King and The Stormlord are apparently fighting each other, yet we have no details beyond the fact that they are apparently fighting.
Hes the only necron who retained the ability to fart ... nobody can empty a crypt faster than the silent king .
No one cares
What?, no he's active, he was a big part of the pariah nexus campaign, he's in conflict with both the mechanicus and a splinter sect of necrons led by the storm lord, he's BEHIND the pariah nexus junk he's doing things
It’s astounds me about the lack of narrative; gulliman fighting to protect Sanctus; the Lion and Dante fighting in nilus
@AvitusNox how will they sell more Necrons without some narrative 🤔 oh wait Gw cause they are cool and people will get them for that one reason just write the damn lore lol
Son of the Forest came out April 2023 really hoped we’d at least have another book announcement too look forward too. It def feels like he’s being wasted currently
And to an extent, the Son of the Forest was sort of retconned by the DA Codex not even a full year later and there has been zero effort to expand that plot line, or Vash'torr, or the Vaults of Terra issues (The Throne and fate of the Fabricator of Mars). Like honestly, official Black Library barely carries more weight than fan fiction.
Holy crap that was APRIL 2023!?!? Jesus Gdubs what are you doing
The Lion Who'Jonson.. ammi-right fellas? - Sevatar probably
Please leave.
@@ChapterMasterValrak Still sore that Sevatar pushed Simpismunds shit in lmao
I'm gonna die of old age the day before Sevatar comes back and GW will have done it on purpose 😂😭
@@voidstorm6225 Yeah it sucks.
They dropped the ball hard and I have a feeling this is indicative of the future of Warhammer. A primarch returns for a single novel and then never gets another one. Gulliman gets multiple because it was novel (pun intended) at the time and he is.... An Ultramarine.
That's your normal GW pacing, Warhammer was never about one constantly updating narrative.
You can always rely on captain spreadsheet and the ultrasmurfs getting excessive coverage 🤣😂
It's like how the Squats were ignored for decades, retconned into the Leagues of Votann, and then ignored again.
@@ruslanhoncharenko2179You don’t even have to update a narrative with a new book. It can literally just be a day in the life of gorillaman. GW is allergic to going into any detail about anything.
@@robertnelson9599they just got a Novel so we can get more lore out them now
Fulgrim, angry that the brother he murdered has come back plots to attack Gulliman. Cypher, for mysterious reasons, tips off the Lion. The Lion forest walks a bunch of Dark Angels in to save Guilliman from Fulgrim's attack and it takes both primarchs to take out ascended Fulgrim
something Dorn coulda done alone during the siege of terra... but fulgrim ran like a bitch. G man was never even in the top half of the primarchs when it came to fighting but Lion was. Tho i guess it depends on how much the lion degraded over his sleep... even if he was able to beat Angron. I can only assume Angron is a better fighter then Fulgrim.
Dude this isn't power rangers...that's lame
Any better ideas?
@@toxictouch1988 tbf Fulgrim wasn't trying. If he went all out Dorn would be super dead, Dorn's super power is borring the ever living shit out of Fulgrim.
@@toxictouch1988 what are you talking about? Dorn even said fulgrim was playing with him and could have killed him with absolute ease? do you even read the lore lol
I feel like the Lion, narratively, did everything he was needed for.
He allowed GW execs to tell a story of great profit at their shareholder meeting.
4:51 Val don't expect GW do their job, Please understand that they are small company
😂😂😂
Both GW and blizzard - just two small indie companies
They also added new tyranic war and also doing nothing with it🎉
That's nothing new. GW always does it to keep wars going. It's the same with older wars like 3rd war of Armageddon or the devastation of baal GW would start a new big war only to put it on hold as they go back to old wars that.
The writers and production team are working to two different schedules and none of the higher ups give a toss about uniting the aspects of the ip as a hole. I would argue this has been a thing since 7ed.
@@jamiecunningham8394 It was a thing since forever, Cadia falling was a narrative for decades, it was even retconned ones.
RAAAH, THE GREATEST PRIMARCH (at being completely ignored and essentially forgotten, I am still waiting for that primarch tier hug with Robby G)
Corvus and the Khan say, "Welcome to the niche corner"
He is not by any measure of the imagination the greatest. He is the best duelist, but thats about it, as basic as he can be. In all honesty, its among the worst. Shame, as the Dark Angels are my favorist Loyalist faction. But since Lion returned, is so meh, he was much better in the narrative dead ...
@@KaratePathHe is the best or top 3 at pretty much everything that isnt social skills. There is a reason why the emperor told him that he would have been the best choice for warmaster
@@KaratePathSounds like a personal opinion
@@KaratePathInsane opinion
Best plan is have Lion as a slayer of beasts gets into a war with WAAAGH Ghazghkull gives both characters something to do and creates a credible basis for Ghazghkull to ascend to that next power tier
I'd like to see Cypher hear about the return of The Lion and 180 from trying to get the lion's sword to the emperor and deliver it to his primarch.
The Lion is just waiting for Krieg and Emperors Children to drop next year.
Would love for him to become the Green Knight of 40k, finding these lop sided and futile battles, then bringing in the Redeemed to turn the battle. Whether as an individual, a squad or a strike force. Really lean into him being a fey like being
That's how they were describing him before he met Dante and then....nothing.
That’s what he’s been set up for, and he’s been doing that for The Unforgiven (we got literally a single sentence on it in our codex) but beyond that, we’ve got nothing
Isn't that what the Legion of the Damned do? Would rather have spiritual Ferrus Manus leading them, than the Lion
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus And I think to a degree that, is exactly why their stumped. They gave him a unique ability for a niche that was already filled.
And that problem will continue with the other Loyalist Primarchs, they can try to make them unique in lore or gameplay. But at the end of the day there is so much already established that it weighs everything else down
Of course modern 40k needs to cannibalise fantasy to come up with something good 😂😂😂
Same thing AOS has done since its inception.
In the Dawn of Fire series, the Indomitus crusade hasn't yet crossed the rift into imperium nihilus. In devastation of baal, and darkness in the blood, they newly have. In son of the forest, primaris Dante meets the lion. Each 3 book series are clearly at different points in the timeline. We're gonna see more of the lion, it might just take some time for the books to fall into line with each other
Just make Imperium Secundus 2: Eletrict Boogaloo.
Make Lion the new Warmaster, Dante keeps Nihilus and Roboute admin everything. Bring back the amazing conflict we got in the Heresy books, make the cooperation between the 3 not so easily, you can throw, Cawl, Leontus, Yvraine, Luther and Abbadon, the Daemon Primarchs, Kbanda too to move the narratives of their factions amd voilá.
I've forgotten Ghaz and some others, but you got the point
On one side I'm happy that GW don't rush the story and don't focus everything on the primarchs. But it also absolutely sad that the lions return gas so few impact at this moment. There is so much potential for conflicts within the imperium. I hope some of the great BL authors will write about him
MORE STORY WITH THE LION! YES YES YES!!!
The inquisition could be suppressing knowledge of The Lion’s return. The least controllable primarch.
Not with how Mike Brooks has written him. The Lion we see in 40k is not the same as the one we see in 30k, he's a hell of a lot weaker, he's a lot less commanding, and he's a lot less resistant to chaos corruption. All the Inquisition would have to do to control the Lion is tell him he's being a meany and he'd probably apologize profusely and go on a monologue about how toxic he was when he was younger
I don’t think GW have dropped the ball by any means, they just haven’t actually thrown it. Possible out of caution.
My hope is that when Dawn of Fire is finished they will start releasing a proper new narrative based on 9th and 10th, I can see strands drawing together but the pace is agonising especially without any Horus Heresy stuff to look forward to
I've actually been reading the Gathering Storm narrative and it has been so frustrating when I see how big that was eventually leading to Guilliman's return and seeing just how underwhelming the Lion's has been.
At the very least the events surrounding Guilliman's return spanned 3 campaign books, 5 pre-return novels(written by Chris Wright), and the entire Dawn of War series which is still ongoing.
The impact of Guilliman's impact was being felt before his return and afterwards.
The Lion just was so underwhelming. All the hype with the Arks of Omen was just dropped. So disappointing.
@@zackzintho48 That's because 8th edition was one big jump forward for the setting narrative, updating the status quo. Pacing returned to usual 40k as it was before
When you're in a ignoring your own characters competition and your opponent is GW
Dragon Ball steps up to the plate
TTS Cypher: H-hold on... the boomboxes needs more power... but I'm too busy stalking Custodes...
I think it would be cool to see a rematch between Guilliman and Fulgrim
Roboute on his knees, about to loose and at the last moment Lion emerges, taunts and challenges Fulgrim to a duel
Idk if the Lion wins that he struggled against Angron and only won because he taunted Angron and got his to make rash move. Fulgrim is fast and on par with the lion. Maybe old lion stood a chance but old man lion is going to struggle
@@Tropicoboythen you have a two brothers vs one; that’s how you get Guilman and Lion to reunite
@BENR8108 well yah better chance then but I'm the scenario above Gman was about to die and Lion was going to 1v1 to save him. It's very likely he would actually win legitimately with both the emperors sword is scary enough to deter daemons. In all honestly loyalist will always solo daemon primarchs hell Logan Grimnar soloed Magnus so writting is silly
Nah, Bobby G's girlfriend needs to save him from Fulgrim, its like her specialty
Guilliman wounded, lion appears with fealty and the emperors shield, the lion loses fealty, picks up the emperors sword. Epic
too be honest, I think the Forest walking thing is the problem. They might have a problem of fitting in a Primarch that can teleport freely all over the galaxy without him being able to easily solve most problems of the Imperium
That is easily solved by having the enemy factions simply inventing a counter. Chaos with magic, Necrons with magic-tech etc.
Tbf it's limited to Lion only being able to traverse to where his sons are. You can't for say have him teleport into Macragge's Honour unless some Dark Angels or Cypher are there.
@@gamechanger8908 really? I thought he only had to picture the destination. Well it was a while ago since I read the book so might remember it wrong.
That makes it a bit better, but it still mean that you could station some Dark Angels on the most important worlds and if they are ever attacked, instant Lion.
Guilliman is the leader and statesman, it made sense for him to be the head of the Imperium. The Lion is the consummate general and warrior, so it makes sense for him to be on the warpath. One of those is much more interesting lore wise.
Honestly, comes down to something simple. Age of Sigmar got a new edition, the Old World released, and Kill Team- got released.
I will also say it’s the fact that Ultramarines are poster boys for GW which makes it not surprising that Guilliman has more stories than the The Lion
This reasoning is accurate but at the same time, makes absolutely no sense. Making bonehead narrative decisions because another faction has historically been more profitable is such a limited way of thinking. They're going to lose all new fans they've made over the past year.
No, the Ultramarines got their Primarch and that's what matters. Now all the other chapters can get their Chapter Equivalent Primarch and we'll just keep getting stories about the Ultramarine version.
It's more about a big HQ to show off your new refreshed army then it ever was about lore. Black Library is an afterthought of an afterthought and I feel bad for them cause I'm sure they are told X range is dropping write a reason it's happening idc how you get 1 book
I hope he’s being a sneaky dark angel and rebuilding his legion to full strength, would be interested to see the reaction from guilliman
It would actually be so funny if Lion was like “well we need a government here to organise ourselves” and he started like sort of a regency in his father’s place, and then he ended up starting a crusade as well, and guilliman’s and Lion’s crusades just sort of stumbled into each other
I wonder, what the lion would think of Cawl and the Primaris Marines?
he hasn't rejected the primaris at least, ICC are using primaris armour so he clearly supports it
he already met them, well not cawl
@@jrsviking215He probably likes some of them.
@@epiccthuluCawl would take advantage of this, so he could get permission to do make to make more of his inventions.
@ You know what’s crazy? The Dark Angels have contracts and alliances with the Tau. Imagine the potential of what they can do with the Lion giving the ok
I'm waaay behind on current lore...was there a book that explained 'how' Lion came back, and what his reaction was to all the little DAs now wearing dark green armor?
The specifics as to who exactly awakened him remain murky - he awoke with amnesia so he doesn't know for sure - but when he returned to the tabletop over a year and a half ago, it was covered in the Arks of Omen campaign book and an accompanying novel called Son of the Forest. SoF was very well-received and we see him regaining consciousness and gaining his strength back as he 'shakes off the rust' throughout the book and meeting some of his Fallen sons. There is also commentary in the DA codex that came out earlier this year as to how he is set up on the Rock and interacts with the modern DAs, etc. He's basically forming a protectorate around Nihilus and Forestwalking (er... Lion can teleport all over the place now) to areas where he's needed most.
@@Cornerboy73 Thank you!!
This is why I keep saying that they seemingly full-send refuse to actually move the story at all. They're terrified they'll accidentally kill the series. Its almost like they're worried that moving the setting at all will collapse it.
When your business model is to do basically nothing but leave massive unresolved cliffhangers everywhere at all times, resolving a cliffhanger is a dangerous business proposition.
That is how 40k operated for all it's multiple decades existence. It's a setting first, not a story, so myriads of plotlines are created, some to entice "yourdudes" gamers some to develop slooowly over years and editions. Warhammer most natural state is status quo and all those new fans that joined after 8th edition seems to don't know that
Thank you! I really want to see The Lion and Guilliman meet and discuss what's going on in the galaxy. GW should give us that.
Seriously why is this a shock to anyone? This is what GW does! It hypes shit up to sell a couple models then they never touch it ever again in our lifetime.
I think one of the big problems is his Forestwalk ability. He can just essentially teleport anywhere, and it allows him to avoid meeting with people that he would have had been forced to interact with otherwise.
I would like to see a follow up book after arcs of Oman about the lion intergrating the risin into the current day dark angels, and his relationship with them. Like imagine you been doing what you though your primarch wanted for 10 thousand years and he just shows up with the fallen and tells you to stop hunting them. Like azrael was actually seething. One of the major things I’ve been hoping to see was the lion confront modern day dark angels about what theyve become especially Asmodai
Fully agree with you. Also, they didn't really explain how and why the Lion came back. Guilliman got a whole narrative with Cawl, the Armour of Fate, and the Ynnari.
The Lion, somehow, just returned...
Hello there, just a couple of comments. I think with the release of the Emporer's Children, that has rather taken the priorty for GW. I could be wrong, but this does seem to me the direction GW is pursuing. Hope the Lion gets some attension soon. Than you for your time on this matter.
The Hydra is active and we are missing so much information…. They had the template to the primarchs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLeASE WHAT?!
Both of those guys need a brotherly hug.
I could only imagine a great threat approaching the galaxy. Would love to see Gulliman and the Lion team up while Vulkan returns to pull The Great Khan from the Void.
I honestly think 10th edition narrative was thrown off because of Space Marine 2. Until the game was announced it seemed like the pariah nexus was where the game was going. Just a thought 😅
I'm kind of shocked. The Lion deserves his own "Dawn of Fire" spin off series. Name it after his flagship as well lol.
If, as rumors say, Leman Russ is expected to return next year, it's possible that they're taking a while to give the Lion a story arc because he'd be strongly related to the Wolf King.
!!!!!!!!! We also need a refresh on what is going through Dante’s head…. Meeting two primarchs, he has changed, shape of the legion and the transformation of their solar system…….!!!!!!!!
The fact we haven't had a Lion and Guilliman reunion is criminal.
Leave Lionel alone, he’s just taking a nap!
@@FluteGnome He is the definition of: "You have been in a coma for 6 years. 5 more minutes"
Don't you mean, he has Fallen asleep? ;)
It seems like they were talking about Roboute every freaking week when he came out, so yeah, it is weird that the Imperial story seems to be completely on hold at the moment. I don't think it's that they don't know what to do with him, I think it's that they're just waiting for a moment to strike, say, 11th edition will likely have many more major story developments, and for some reason, they are clutching their pearls on Lion meeting Guilliman, for example.
I have a suspicion that they’re holding off until we get a proper model update for the Ravenwing to be the ‘tip of the spear’ for him to strike out with. Not to mention we need some resolution about how the purpose of the Ravenwing & Interrogator Chaplins fit in the chapter going forward with the Lion offering reconciliation to many of the Fallen
I’m interested in how the Lion will react to Guilliman’s new view of/ relationship with the Emperor.
The only reason they brought back the lion is because of the cash grab and to use his new abilities to find his brothers.
tbh something I don't think is really discussed enough, is that 40k is largely written to be a very stagnant setting. From a galaxy wide perspective not much really happens. each new edition there is some sort of incursion of whatever big bad into what is effectively just a "made up" sector - they'll make up a couple of imperial planets or systems to "fall" - but it is very rare for anything of note to actually happen. This guys win a war, those guys win a war but what actually changes? Very little!
What "big things" have ever really happened? The fall of Cadia? (yet somehow Cadians are still the "main" Imperial Guard units...?) Technically Guilliman returning and becoming the leader of the Imperium is a big thing. And that's probably about it? There's been 13 odd Black Crusades, and generally speaking little has happened as a result beyond the new rift. As you said, the traitor primarchs returning it seems a lot "more" happens - but again they come back, and get a cool story about attacking this world or that world - and actually have very little real impact on the setting. The Lion coming back has the potential to have an impact but GW will want to be careful about what that impact actually is.
in some ways it could be why the Lion was the first to return, the secretive nature around the Dark Angels as a whole means the the Lion can "deal" with that whole thing and generally slink around in the shadows for as long as GW need before actually doing anything with it. Tis why the Khan and Russ could be a good choice to return - they can return and instead of going for the bro hug, can just yolo themselves off to some sort of war - writing cool stories that actually don't achieve anything ;op
It is likely because GW are a model selling company and realistically any big lore events would technically have an impact on models. It suits GW that ol' Rowboat Girlyman remains the leader of the Imperium, because it maintains the status quo of the Ultramarines being the poster boys for 40k ;op I doubt we'll see much "happen" until GW feels a need to do a big refresh ;)
Tis why I doubt anything will happen with Vashtor's ascension to godhood - its a cool story narrative to suck people in, but it happening is too important, so I imagine they'll use it as an overarching narrative to bring various other characters into the story before ultimately failing ;)
This. Many new fans came after 8th edition, which was big status quo update for the setting and probably expect constant "happenings" MCU-style. When in reality Warhammer is a setting first, not some story, myriads of plot threads and characters are there for people to immerse themselves in and some of them may slowly develop over years and editions. Current way of things is how Warhammer always operated for decades, for GW Lion returning was basically yesterday, there is no immediate desire to focus on him rn, so they turned their gaze into advancing Pariah Nexus camping that will result in another status quo and so on and so on.
It's crazy how they haven't done a book about the lion meeting guilliam again. That book would print money and make fans super excited in the lore again. But na lets just release one lion book and leave it cold for coming up to two years....
What if they are going to do the primarch meet up after the next loyalist primarch returns. Could you imagine Bobby, Lem, and Johnson seeing each other for the first time in millenia.
Not only have they not done anything with him, they’ve actively gone backwards since his introduction and undone what good they already had done with him.
Son of the Forest was fantastic, and was a much needed shake up to the status quo of the Dark Angels, who had become the most stagnant and uninspiring of all the first founding chapters, being dumbed down to the one note obsession with the fallen, and nothing else for decades now.
The Risen and the Lion’s desire to fix his mistakes, and the mistakes that led to in his sons, was a great idea, especially with the Risen being a substantial and growing force consisting of first born marines with the advanced equipment of the Horus Heres/Great Crusade era, in a time when everything has become the grey molasses of Primaris slop.
And then GW releases the codex, and the Lion is still allowing the obsessive hunt for the Fallen, there’s no mention of the Risen or their even being acknowledged by the DA’s and the successors, and the Risen themselves are now just generic Primaris bladeguard variants.
The next big narrative should be Guiliman and The Lion together against the Tyranids in a huge action to push them back and give the imperium more breathing room.
I would like to see the lion finding cypher and reclaiming his sword
Never in my lamest dreams I could have imagined such an underwhelming return for a primarch.
I loved you idea of replicating the East and West Roman empire - Gman in the south and Lion + Sanguineous in the north. They could purge and then tension at the end between the two with a chance of civil war again!
Calling it right now that 12th edition will be Coteaz starting a civil war as a result of Imperium Secundus being revealed and Lion, Guilliman and Dante are accused of doing it again.
Dark Angels being "the Knights of Nihilus" was always the plan... or at least it was...
The Lion should go on a Crusade into the webway to find Jaghatai Khan and expand upon the lore of The Golden Throne and what it truly is. Having The Khan come back with a dual model kit that has a jetbike option would be so sick. They could also do the same for Kor'sarro Khan. There is so much cool shit GW could do. I hope they flesh out the other 'legions' soon. I'm excited for Fulgrim's return, but I really want to see the Undivided daemon primarch's come back. Making Lorgar return to the materium would be such a good move for GW to then build upon a massive narrative. GW could also have Perturabo return to enact a war against Angron and the World Eaters.
My guess is that they're busy at GW's hq with discussing where they want to go with the Lion . And probably even with the return of another Loyalist Primarch once Fulgrim and his sissies gets released . It will be indeed worth the wait , I think . And yeah , give me more novels with the Lion .
Where did you get your banners at????
They dropped the lion knowing he was a cash cow and would herald a range refresh then said yah we made our chunk kf change, oh the lore? Nah you mean what primarch next.
It is very frustrating that there arent more novels with the awakened Lion. Same , but to a lesser extent, with Guilliman
So the theory I’ve liked to believe is that when fulgrim comes back and if they bring back another primarch I want it to be Russ and for them all to meet and come to an understanding that guilliman runs the imperium while the lion and Russ get assigned to crucial crusades that are vital for guillimans plans. Guilliman represents the two headed eagle of the imperium leading from above while the lion and Russ both representing their respective apex predators hunting the threats to the imperium
I feel like the Lion’s narrative should be clear… dealing with Luthor who is another character they have completely forgotten about after supposedly amassing a large force of fallen after escaping the rock.
This could lead to lion and g-man meeting up imo
I feel like it all started with the Silent King. Brought back, no time given to his narrative, then Angron - no narrative development, then The Lion - same thing. Then a new edition is launched, and before that story can even be explored properly they are going to release Fulgrim! No time taken to flesh out the story any more, just new release after new release to keep the money train going.
I hope they do more with the tyrannic war. For me personally it would be epic if G-man and the Lion met during a massive battle/campaign against the tyranids.
He's actually involved in the new Leagues of Votann book heavily. It might as well be a Lion El'Jonson book
Wait, what?!
@@ChapterMasterValrakI’m 2 hours in and I haven’t seen him yet
@@mangohub3252 please let me know if he appears
Hes scamming you. @ChapterMasterValrak
I don't think they're struggling with what to do with him, I think they have the narrative beats planned out and we haven't got to his yet. Just like the Tyrannic War, just like Nachmund, just like Chalnath, just like Pariah Nexus, the focus on something, then move to the next, and eventually come back to it.
I think the Horus heresy novels really took up the release space/ authors that could have gone towards more current 40k narratives
I think a Lion and Dante book series (maybe 2-3 books tops) would be fascinating especially to help educate the Lion and all the massive amounts of xeno and traitor dung that has been thrown at the fan in 10k years. It would be a really interesting story, especially if zabrial was there and maybe still narrating
It’s not even ongoing narrative, there seemed to be no communication between the son of the forest / arks of omen teams and the codex teams. There should’ve been a bunch of stuff about the lion in the codex or more mentions
I feel like Black Library is trying to reconfigure now that the Heresy is broadly done. After TEATD Vol 3, there has been very little in the way of new releases this year, and the books that have come out are all over the place. Also seems like some authors are working on AoS books as well for the start of the new edition. It seems like some of the big name writers have been quiet too, which probably means they're working on it.
The books The Son of the Forest and Devastation of Baal and the Arks of Omen happen after Guilliman crosses over the into imperium nihlus, in the Dawn of fire books, we're still waiting for Guilliman to cross over the rift, so it may be a work in progress...
He will be in the new space wolves release along with Russ, who wants his heart back ever since the Lion took it and used it as his own stress ball
Was listening to the dawn of fire series they mention rumors of the lion returning, but it wasn’t just the lion it also was the Khan Corvus, Vulcan. He might’ve heard that the lion returned, but he just thinks it’s a rumor. 2:56
The book was “Dawn of Fire - Wolf Time”
Lion and Guilliman should just meet up now and start a mini great Crusade again.
He’s trying to figure out how to turn on the TV
Honestly? Id like to see the lion have his time where hes bordering on traitor, as he sees what the imperium has become and becomes so dissapointed he either leaves temporarily with his chapter or flies into a rage
Lack of involvement?
He is not type of guy who update status on social media every time he active, He is more guy who make results then move on, no fanfare, no celebration because there's much things to do
He does not need to update his status, but as a fictional and loved character, we fans need to know.
So we don't get to hear about it? Wtf was the point of him coming back then? These aren't real people.
Next time we see the Lion, the first thing I want to see is him showing up right in front of the imperial palace to see the Emperor real quick, and THEN going to talk to Guilliman
He will kneel in front of the golden throne sword in hand and shield in the back while the myst of the caliban forest surround them then Lion said: father I have returned tell me which path should I follow. While they "talk" Custodes outside are going crazy we need lord Guilliman to come
Then Guilliman will arrive to see a figure in a hood green cloak in shock the only thing that will come out of his mouth is brother
End of scene 😅
Everything is such a mess he just went back to sleep and told the Watchers to wake him up if things chill out.
I think the problems are two-fold: First, GW's continual hemming and hawing about actually advancing 40K's story. Like you ask if Guilliman knows that Lion is back. When are you asking about? During Dawn of Fire? During the Fourth Tyrannic War?
Secondly, a lot of the story beats that come naturally for Lion (or any returning loyalist Primarch) are already explored through Guillman: coming to terms with the present-day Imperium, the conflict between their secular upbringing and everyone's desire to worship them as demigods, how they relate to the 40K Emperor, etc. I'd probably enjoy something that was basically 'Dark Imperium but it's Lion El'Johnson instead of Bobby G.', but a lot of people wouldn't.
It goes beyond the Lion, they seemingly have no idea what to do with any character or faction atm. All the big narratives in 40k since the Lions return have stalled or lead to nothing
I think what's going on is they are spinning their wheels. GW wants Primarch returns to be big events, Loyalist and Traitor. Fulgrim's the next one who we know is coming. I can imagine them wanting to do Guilliman and Lion vs Fulgrim. Or maybe even waiting so it's not two loyalist Primarchs reuniting, it's three.
There's no lack of things for a Primarch to do. Chaos has Abaddon's crusade, and the Daemon Primarchs returning. Perturabo and Lorgar will be returning. Ghaz's WAAAGH is only building momentum, and there's no garauntee that even more Tyranids won't arrive.
am i crazy or have there been less 40k novels this year?
I guess he fell into the same pit the silent King, the Ynnari, Ursakar Creed and all the others I'm forgetting did...
Don't worry everyone, we will find out tons of new info when 10th's three year cycle is finished and they cap it off with three $50 "Campaign" books that advance the narrative 10 full days.
The stories are happening across gaming tables around the world.
The Lion will not likely be happy that Robute is being treated like a god.
Wonder if the Lion is going to fade into the brush and a big clash between the risen and the Inquisition happens.
The Lion is busy making sure Vash'torr's godhood machines don't work
He replaced the buttons with touchpads
A book has to be in the works. Or maybe even a series because its a gold mine of money/ lore for GW
I think Roboute must know as Lion was with Dante for considerable amount of time and as he is in charge of Nihilus, he must be in regular contact with Guilliman (I am sure Roboute made some reporting templates for Dante :D ). Also I would LOVE for Roboute naming Lion Warmaster, as he should have always should have been