It's worth noting that while "% more" is better than "% increased" when trying to make a number as high as possible, "% reduced" is more powerful than "% less" when trying to get a number as close to zero as possible. For example, if you have two sources of 50% less damage taken, you'll take 25% of the total damage (0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25), whereas two sources of 50% reduced damage taken would add together to 100% reduced damage taken, making you immune to damage (0.5 - 0.5 = 0).
Really good point. This is why going for max block is so powerful compared to just some. It's one of the easiest mitigation sources in the game to get very high.
@@Ludak021 Took me a minute to work it out coz my schooling sucked :/ But I think RadiantSolarWeasel 's equations are just for the simplification of terms. If you have two sources of 50% less damage taken: DamageTaken = BaseDamage * (0.5 * 0.5) = BaseDamage * 0.25 If you have two sources of 50% reduced damage taken: DamageTaken = BaseDamage * (1 - 0.5 - 0.5) = BaseDamage * 0
nice video, thanks! As a small improvement, I would have liked to see a complete example in the conclusion, including increased, more and "special" modifiers. I think that would have tied it all together
This is good and worthwhile content for the community in general because there are a lot of those that need this information. I think it would've probably been helpful to have a step by step calculation of the different stages of the damage calculation to illustrate which are "grouped" together as additive before moving to the next step to multiply with the next value or "group". As in: All flat damage modifiers (that is "adds 40-60 physical damage to attacks" for example) are added together MULTIPLIED BY all increases to YOUR damage DEALT are added together MULTIPLIED BY all more damage dealt modifiers separately (meaning all %more damage dealt modifiers are multiplied with each other unlike with increased modifiers where they are added to each other) MULTIPLIED BY all increased damage TAKEN by ENEMY modifiers are added together MULTIPLIED BY all more damage TAKEN by ENEMY modifiers separately for final hit damage numbers. Anyone feel free to correct me if I fucked up with my thinking here. This excludes enemy resistances as I think they are increased taken modifiers but I'm not 100% sure.
Nice video, only thing I'd add is that some more multis are less clear, such as Arc's 15% more per remaining chain giving one 30% more instead of 2 15% more multis when you have 2 chains remaining. Since more multis are multiplicative this leads to less damage than someone might think at first look.
So just to recap: more and less or increased and reduced modifiers will give you more or less the same results, until you have more more and less or increased and reduced modifiers , in which case you get more and less from more more and less, than from more increased and reduced. EZ Clap :D
I've always understood the "enemies take increased damage" modifiers, but what if you have more than one? For example, if you are a chieftain with the correct totem node and you have a belt of the deceiver equipped. Assuming the enemy is both near your totem and near you, do they now take 26% increased damage, instead of an extra 10% from the belt and then an extra 16% from the ascendancy node?
@@EngineeringEternity On that note, showing Pride in the enemies take grouping can be misleading as it's indeed a more multiplier and doesn't stack with any other "enemies take ... increased damages".
@@Harest Not necissarily, as that group is meant to show they are calculated at a seperate point to the common modifiers that are on your character sheet. They will still operate under the same rules (additive and multiplicative)
The "enemies take increased" modifier is basically another layer of increased damage. Stacking too many of them also becomes less and less effective. However there are way fewer ways of getting this modifier than your standard increased x damage so it often is regarded as a more multiplier which is technically not true.
Hey, I am super grateful for both your guide and previous questions you answered for me! I have another question about charges (frenzy and blitz specifically). Frenzy give 4% more per charge. Does each one give 4% (2=8.16) or are they additive (2=8)? Same with blitz, would the full stack of blitz give 40% more attack speed or 48.5% more? And if the charges are each individual more multipliers, does the frenzy skill work that way, getting a 1.05 multiplier for each frenzy charge? Thanks again and I am excited to read your answer!
Where does the 1 come from when you're converting to a multiplier in the examples? Why are you adding 1+1.15 for the increased example and adding 1 to each of the modifiers (1+.5) in the 'more' example? Can someone please explain?
i dont understand this. where do you get the 1 and .5 from? whats the formula for this? im using arc i know i need more spell damage etc but how do i know if the weapon is good? i need a staff
@4:14 actual increase there is 100% not 33%, if you start with 50 damage and end up with 100 damage increase is, like I said, 100%. You can throw as much extra steps as you want and call it 33% for some reason ( ?! ) but it's a straight 100%.
Also, did EE talk about the more/less modifiers being applied to the value modified by increased/reduced damage (and not the base dmg)? I seem to have missed that.
I know its not your style but i hope you can update us on your berserker cyclone. Show some battle of 5 armies if there are. Some actions with the guardians and uber elder.
How/when are enemies take increased/more damage calculated? Do they multiply with the increased and more you have or are they additive with your other additives?
As stated in the guide, Enemies Take is a special group and those modifiers are cumulated seperate to your common modifiers and then multiplied against them when damage is dealt. So the two sums of the two groups of increases are multiplied against one another.
@@EngineeringEternity okay, I get it. That's why you used fresh slate there. Does the same happen with pride? Does it effectively multiply all of the more multipliers by itself?
Engineering!!!!!! awesome guide. but.... you left out double dmg mods. im still unsure how those apply. before or after crit? or. i dont know please you know this so tell me :D it says additive on wiki. and thats all. please give me an example on say a 500 dmg hit where i have 100 inc dmg to my weapon, 10 inc dmg taken on enemy and 500 multi. would help alot. and thanks for all your hard work on this :D
Double Damage is just another More modifier of 100% applied in the same way any other more modifier is applied. Crit Multi is additive to itself and then multiplied against outgoing damage if a crit is rolled.
@Engineering Eternity : hey can u give me the math or somehting on a question ? so.. im wondereing how to compare: 77 76 76 resis with 26% reduced elemental damage taken. vs 81 80 80 resis with 8%reduced elemental damage taken. like how good is 4% max res compared to 18% reduced elemental damage taken ? i remember somehting like 1%max res is like 8%reduced elemental damage taken ? and if its like 80 to 81% its even a litte more like 9%maybe ? thanks
Because per point invested the smaller bar graph doubled its damage while the taller one added about a quarter of its damage to it. So yes they added the same amount of damage but when you look at investing points into the skill tree to get another increased modifier, the more of them you get, the less you get per point spent.
Why would you muddy the definition of diminishing returns? % increases/decreases are linear, each percentage point added gives the same amount of the given stat. (All else equal) Diminishing returns in this case would mean you get a lesser amount of the given stat for each percentage point higher. (All else equal) We already have stats that have diminishing returns, like "Armour" when calculating damage reduction.
He means that when stacking %increased damage your real damage increase will have dininishing returns, meaning that the more increased damage you have, the less each percentage increase will benefit your actual damage.
@@TheAmigoBoyz He wasn't talking about real/actual damage, he was talking about relative damage. The bar graph he shows at 4:23 explains this part, notice the green bar added is the same size it represents the same percentage gained. Each bar went up by the same amount. The return for each percentage point is the same. That is why I'm asking why did he muddy the definition of diminishing returns.
@@TheAmigoBoyz Miguelangel is right here. deminishing returns is simply the wrong term. there can not be deminishing returns in a linear function. what EE means tho is the effectiveness compared to the previous increase, which doesnt have deminishing returns either, instead it whould be expressed in logarithmic growth
wow these comments are so immature, i can't even imagine how you are able to live in real life. Spamming nonsense 24/7. real viewers trying to learn from the video can't focus on the complex equations. please stop
There are no diminishing returns on "increased damage" - every % point gives the exact same amount of damage as the one before it. Even in the example you gave, every 50% added 25 damage, and that's constant. This is called "linear scaling" not "diminishing returns".
You get diminishing returns on the actual % rise that "increased damage" gives to total damage like he showed in the bar chart but not on ''increased damage'' modifier itself, you are correct. Still, I don't think he really meant that which is why he put the chart in the first place.
dunno how's that confusing to people to be honest. Simple stuff: if your base dmg is for example 10, and you get all the inc dmg stuff from tree and items theyre all applied in brackets so (10 x 150%) for example. the more multiplier take place outisde of the bracked to (10 x 150% ) x 120% while the "the increased damage" is even a more outside of bracket dmg increase making it: ((10 base x 150% inc) x 120% more) x 40% inc dmg taken. i think all of this is on wiki anyway
You are right about the bracket placement but your sum is wrong. If you have only multipliers in a sum it doesn't require brackets lol, you would simply write your sum as a sequence and the order in which numbers you multiply is not important. It would be add 150% of 10 to 10 not multiply 10 by 150% because %increased damage is additive. So 10 + (10 * 1.5) * 2.2 * 1.4 would be the correct way to write that. Its confusing because %increased damage sounds like a multiplier but really its a flat addition based on % weapon/skill gem damage or whatever it might be.
What the fuck are you even trying to say? Hes not a wanna be pro and streamer, he is just HELPING new players understand the game. HES JUST COMING WITH EXAMPLES
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
It's worth noting that while "% more" is better than "% increased" when trying to make a number as high as possible, "% reduced" is more powerful than "% less" when trying to get a number as close to zero as possible.
For example, if you have two sources of 50% less damage taken, you'll take 25% of the total damage (0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25), whereas two sources of 50% reduced damage taken would add together to 100% reduced damage taken, making you immune to damage (0.5 - 0.5 = 0).
True, I knew I forgot to touch on something. I remember missing to mention that in my beginners guide. doh.
Really good point. This is why going for max block is so powerful compared to just some. It's one of the easiest mitigation sources in the game to get very high.
This had me confused regarding " You take x% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes".
so you are saying (with your equation up there) that having ONE 50% less damage taken is better than two. Sorry but that makes no sense.
@@Ludak021 Took me a minute to work it out coz my schooling sucked :/ But I think RadiantSolarWeasel
's equations are just for the simplification of terms.
If you have two sources of 50% less damage taken:
DamageTaken = BaseDamage * (0.5 * 0.5) = BaseDamage * 0.25
If you have two sources of 50% reduced damage taken:
DamageTaken = BaseDamage * (1 - 0.5 - 0.5) = BaseDamage * 0
thx for explaining confusing terms in Math of Exile.
Path of Excell
nice video, thanks! As a small improvement, I would have liked to see a complete example in the conclusion, including increased, more and "special" modifiers. I think that would have tied it all together
This is good and worthwhile content for the community in general because there are a lot of those that need this information. I think it would've probably been helpful to have a step by step calculation of the different stages of the damage calculation to illustrate which are "grouped" together as additive before moving to the next step to multiply with the next value or "group".
As in:
All flat damage modifiers (that is "adds 40-60 physical damage to attacks" for example) are added together
MULTIPLIED BY
all increases to YOUR damage DEALT are added together
MULTIPLIED BY
all more damage dealt modifiers separately (meaning all %more damage dealt modifiers are multiplied with each other unlike with increased modifiers where they are added to each other)
MULTIPLIED BY
all increased damage TAKEN by ENEMY modifiers are added together
MULTIPLIED BY
all more damage TAKEN by ENEMY modifiers separately for final hit damage numbers.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I fucked up with my thinking here.
This excludes enemy resistances as I think they are increased taken modifiers but I'm not 100% sure.
Yeah, I had started playing POE about 3-4 weeks ago, but this series is what made me a GOOD player. Thanks again and keep up the great work!
I don’t comment much but the animations are looking very nice, good job and thanks for the quality content!
I wish this video was out 3 years ago when I first started playing the game
Nice video, only thing I'd add is that some more multis are less clear, such as Arc's 15% more per remaining chain giving one 30% more instead of 2 15% more multis when you have 2 chains remaining. Since more multis are multiplicative this leads to less damage than someone might think at first look.
Yes, I was going to mention this...but that'd just get more confusing and bring in too specific of examples I figured.
Adding the text "More value" to a bar graph about increased damage. Classic example of how mindfucky this topic is ;)
Should he have put "increased value"? XD
So just to recap: more and less or increased and reduced modifiers will give you more or less the same results, until you have more more and less or increased and reduced modifiers , in which case you get more and less from more more and less, than from more increased and reduced. EZ Clap :D
Bruh
I've always understood the "enemies take increased damage" modifiers, but what if you have more than one? For example, if you are a chieftain with the correct totem node and you have a belt of the deceiver equipped. Assuming the enemy is both near your totem and near you, do they now take 26% increased damage, instead of an extra 10% from the belt and then an extra 16% from the ascendancy node?
Correct, those values are added together since they are both increased of the same group
@@EngineeringEternity On that note, showing Pride in the enemies take grouping can be misleading as it's indeed a more multiplier and doesn't stack with any other "enemies take ... increased damages".
@@Harest Not necissarily, as that group is meant to show they are calculated at a seperate point to the common modifiers that are on your character sheet. They will still operate under the same rules (additive and multiplicative)
The "enemies take increased" modifier is basically another layer of increased damage. Stacking too many of them also becomes less and less effective. However there are way fewer ways of getting this modifier than your standard increased x damage so it often is regarded as a more multiplier which is technically not true.
wow i was only just trying to figure out this concept, how did you know!
Most important video right here
Hey, I am super grateful for both your guide and previous questions you answered for me! I have another question about charges (frenzy and blitz specifically).
Frenzy give 4% more per charge. Does each one give 4% (2=8.16) or are they additive (2=8)? Same with blitz, would the full stack of blitz give 40% more attack speed or 48.5% more?
And if the charges are each individual more multipliers, does the frenzy skill work that way, getting a 1.05 multiplier for each frenzy charge?
Thanks again and I am excited to read your answer!
love your videos, hope you come back and make some more ! :)
Where does the 1 come from when you're converting to a multiplier in the examples? Why are you adding 1+1.15 for the increased example and adding 1 to each of the modifiers (1+.5) in the 'more' example? Can someone please explain?
Finally~~~~ ANOTHER VIDEO FORM SAVIOR~~
Sehr schön, danke dafür!
i dont understand this. where do you get the 1 and .5 from? whats the formula for this? im using arc i know i need more spell damage etc but how do i know if the weapon is good? i need a staff
@4:14 actual increase there is 100% not 33%, if you start with 50 damage and end up with 100 damage increase is, like I said, 100%. You can throw as much extra steps as you want and call it 33% for some reason ( ?! ) but it's a straight 100%.
Quality content right here!! +1 like.
Also, did EE talk about the more/less modifiers being applied to the value modified by increased/reduced damage (and not the base dmg)? I seem to have missed that.
I know its not your style but i hope you can update us on your berserker cyclone. Show some battle of 5 armies if there are. Some actions with the guardians and uber elder.
hey guys its engineeringeternity here once again and
this video has helped me Thank you!
How/when are enemies take increased/more damage calculated? Do they multiply with the increased and more you have or are they additive with your other additives?
As stated in the guide, Enemies Take is a special group and those modifiers are cumulated seperate to your common modifiers and then multiplied against them when damage is dealt. So the two sums of the two groups of increases are multiplied against one another.
@@EngineeringEternity okay, I get it. That's why you used fresh slate there. Does the same happen with pride? Does it effectively multiply all of the more multipliers by itself?
@@tetsero Yes, same deal as any other more multiplier. It is just on the side of enemies take, so it wont show on tooltip.
What about an Essence Video? :)
ok i knew these basics but how to express this in a mathematical exact way?
Engineering!!!!!! awesome guide. but.... you left out double dmg mods. im still unsure how those apply. before or after crit? or. i dont know please you know this so tell me :D it says additive on wiki. and thats all. please give me an example on say a 500 dmg hit where i have 100 inc dmg to my weapon, 10 inc dmg taken on enemy and 500 multi. would help alot. and thanks for all your hard work on this :D
Double Damage is just another More modifier of 100% applied in the same way any other more modifier is applied. Crit Multi is additive to itself and then multiplied against outgoing damage if a crit is rolled.
Engineering Eternity ok good to know. wordings can be misleading at times. shame it doesnt just 2x after all calcs. thx for reply. :)
NICE GUIDE ENGINEERING ETERNITY HAHAHA NEED TO STACK THOSE MORE AHAHA
Wow. Watching this as a non-native english speaker made my brain sweat. xD
Even as a native english speaker it's a lot to take in. Still did a great job of explaining a complicated topic to a new player
@@09SMHS he sure did, he makes the best PoE guides.
Question: Is "More %" or "Increased %" first added ot the damage ?
I think they both calculate from base damage.
@Engineering Eternity :
hey can u give me the math or somehting on a question ?
so.. im wondereing how to compare:
77 76 76 resis with 26% reduced elemental damage taken.
vs 81 80 80 resis with 8%reduced elemental damage taken.
like how good is 4% max res compared to 18% reduced elemental damage taken ?
i remember somehting like 1%max res is like 8%reduced elemental damage taken ?
and if its like 80 to 81% its even a litte more like 9%maybe ?
thanks
Monster damage * resistence = amount mitigated by resist. Then take original # - amount mitigated by res = damage. Damage * reduced damage taken = amount reduced. Damage - amount reduced = damage you actually take.
Example #1:(damage) 1000 * .77 (77% res)= 770 (mitigated) 1000 - 770= 230 * .26 (26% reduced) = 59.8 amount reduced 230 - 59.8 = 170.2
I'm *WAY* too sleep deprived for this to make sense.. Will revisit soon lol
U deserve each like from Brazil LOL
best channel for poe in youtube
I don’t understand diminishing returns. The bar graph thing shows the exact same amount of damage added lol
Because per point invested the smaller bar graph doubled its damage while the taller one added about a quarter of its damage to it. So yes they added the same amount of damage but when you look at investing points into the skill tree to get another increased modifier, the more of them you get, the less you get per point spent.
Why would you muddy the definition of diminishing returns?
% increases/decreases are linear, each percentage point added gives the same amount of the given stat. (All else equal)
Diminishing returns in this case would mean you get a lesser amount of the given stat for each percentage point higher. (All else equal)
We already have stats that have diminishing returns, like "Armour" when calculating damage reduction.
He means that when stacking %increased damage your real damage increase will have dininishing returns, meaning that the more increased damage you have, the less each percentage increase will benefit your actual damage.
@@TheAmigoBoyz He wasn't talking about real/actual damage, he was talking about relative damage. The bar graph he shows at 4:23 explains this part, notice the green bar added is the same size it represents the same percentage gained. Each bar went up by the same amount. The return for each percentage point is the same. That is why I'm asking why did he muddy the definition of diminishing returns.
@@TheAmigoBoyz Miguelangel is right here. deminishing returns is simply the wrong term. there can not be deminishing returns in a linear function. what EE means tho is the effectiveness compared to the previous increase, which doesnt have deminishing returns either, instead it whould be expressed in logarithmic growth
When EE said diminishing returns he is referring to the total effective damage
Hurray to pob for doing that math for us. But thanks for the theory behind it.
So if I keep stacking attack speed I'll be fine.
Nope, attackspeed has "increased" "more" etc too :p
Wating...
Waiting.....
Waiting some more....
"Welcome to the guide Exile"
Me: Yes!
I luv u! I luv u!! Thx man
Just came to like first, and watch second. I am familiar with all the shiznit LOL :)
Hi Stream
what..
dude you smart
wow these comments are so immature, i can't even imagine how you are able to live in real life. Spamming nonsense 24/7. real viewers trying to learn from the video can't focus on the complex equations. please stop
Great vid., but who says Phys. Dam. instead of Phys. Dmg.? :)) DAM. It was funny.
Haha, I was just quickly abbreviating those words in the Editor for space.
This game makes diablo 3 look like Minecraft
What the hell this is still confusing
More =better
remember, less is more
So it 1% more better to take then 10% increased
Great! Now I know as much as previously, that is, more=better, increase=not as good as more, lol
Math of Exile hitting hard
There are no diminishing returns on "increased damage" - every % point gives the exact same amount of damage as the one before it. Even in the example you gave, every 50% added 25 damage, and that's constant. This is called "linear scaling" not "diminishing returns".
Sometimes it is better to use a term that may not be a 100% correct but most people know than to use one that only a few people know.
You get diminishing returns on the actual % rise that "increased damage" gives to total damage like he showed in the bar chart but not on ''increased damage'' modifier itself, you are correct. Still, I don't think he really meant that which is why he put the chart in the first place.
Everybody using one build in this season because it's bis. And then people complain about diablo saying it's always the same lol
It is Rocket science
smh explaining complicated things concisely and intelligently then playing a clip of cyclone
Who in their right mind down-voted this vid?
Probably the pretentious assholes that already knew this and were expecting some mind blowing revelation from the video.
I have come here to shitpost, and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of bubble gum.
Now make a video explaining leech!
I did! ruclips.net/video/R_x2zZmKjTw/видео.html
dunno how's that confusing to people to be honest.
Simple stuff:
if your base dmg is for example 10, and you get all the inc dmg stuff from tree and items theyre all applied in brackets so (10 x 150%) for example.
the more multiplier take place outisde of the bracked to (10 x 150% ) x 120% while the "the increased damage" is even a more outside of bracket dmg increase making it:
((10 base x 150% inc) x 120% more) x 40% inc dmg taken. i think all of this is on wiki anyway
You are right about the bracket placement but your sum is wrong. If you have only multipliers in a sum it doesn't require brackets lol, you would simply write your sum as a sequence and the order in which numbers you multiply is not important.
It would be add 150% of 10 to 10 not multiply 10 by 150% because %increased damage is additive. So 10 + (10 * 1.5) * 2.2 * 1.4 would be the correct way to write that.
Its confusing because %increased damage sounds like a multiplier but really its a flat addition based on % weapon/skill gem damage or whatever it might be.
Every time he says "Hello, exile" I cringe out of existence
Then just don't watch his videos, grow up.
Your videos never make sense. You’re not very good at teaching things you understand to people who don’t understand them
So you don’t sound too uneducated, prefaced is pronounced “preh-fissed”, not “pre-faced”.
Yep I know
Waste 8mins when in 2 can say that one its global and the other specific mod. This wannabe pros and streamers.
What the fuck are you even trying to say? Hes not a wanna be pro and streamer, he is just HELPING new players understand the game. HES JUST COMING WITH EXAMPLES
Its so bad when other games missuse these therms. Cant they all have poe logic.
I have the same problem XD
consistency is key.