Keep in mind that in Korea, 18 is still considered a minor. 20 is considered the legal age of adulthood. Also, they would still have to train for up to 7-10 years before debuting, so they'd still be child trainees. I definitely agree more adults should debut bc I'm tired of people saying "kpop fans must be pdf files".
@@The_Celestial_Fox those young trainees thing is actually useless cuz adult learn faster than minors. And 17 year old trainee can train 5 years same as most idols and they will still debut as 21 years old which is still young. Even just with two years trainee times like newjeans they all can sing and dance better than some idols so long trainee period is not necessary for everyone. And when trainees are kids former kpop trainee said they don't train kids that much.
@monotzukokuureshii I would argue kids learn faster than adults. Kids spend their childhood learning nonstop and the younger they are, the more of an informational sponge they are. It's like learning a language. Kids learn much faster and easier than adults. And trainees are selected on the basis that they show some pre-existing potential for dancing and/or singing, so teaching a kid who can already do one or the other fairly well would be easier than an adult who might be stuck in their ways and be a bit more inflexible to learning how to improve. Honestly though, you don't hear about many adults becoming trainees, so it's hard to say definitively if children of adults have an easier time training. The average length of time idols spend as trainees is 7 years. Do some idols only spend 5 years as one, sure, there are some who even spend less than a year as a trainee like Giselle of aespa, but others who spend 10 years as one like Bangchan of skz and Jihyo of Twice. My point was that if you want idols debut adults and not have children debuting or even being trainees like the video was talking about, 17/18 is not an adult in Korea and even if you do debut people who are the youngest age needed to be an adult (20), that doesn't include the time spent as a trainee, which again the average time is 7 years, meaning the average starting age would be 13. As much as I enjoy and listen to Newjeans, I wouldn't say they sing and dance better than any idol with a longer training period. Can they sing, sure? Are they amazing dancers? Absolutely! Can they perform (sing and dance simultaneously), I'm going to go with "kinda?" None of their songs are musically challenging enough that it's hard to sing and dance for them unlike other groups like Nmixx with long notes and high notes and belts and such. As far as kid trainees not being trained much, Korea literally had to update their laws around child labour in the idol industry, making it so they could only train for a certain amount of time in a day so they could focus on their studies. It also prevents from forcing the beauty standards on them so young to protect their physical and mental health. I don't know what senior idols you're referring to, but child trainees and child rookies wouldn't have the need for such a law change if they weren't being trained that much.
Exhibit A: Brown Eyed Girls. Most debuted after age 25 and are very mature. No rifts, no disagreements, and company actually encouraged them to date since debut. To this day only Narsha is married. Exhibit B: GOD debuted around in their 20s n all of them are very close. They bicker a ton but no rifts. Even stuck firm to keep Park Junhyung from kicked out bc of dating. Geez as a Cubedol Stan I’m very envious of KIOF’s company, KQ, Highup. They don’t have issues of fans sending online complaints, protest trucks, or protest flowers. Treat fans as third family and fight fiercely against haters. Oh and idols take a different color n vibe in their 30s.
I remember BEG saying that are more of co-workers, rather than the most sale pitch when it comes to describing the relationship of the members of a group: friends, like BFFs, sisters/brothers. There are various self produced variety shows of the groups that shows how close the members are. There is nothing Wrong with that but the honesty and how professional BEG is really one of a kind.
Debuting after 25 should be the standard tbh. I actually believe all countries should change the legal age to do a lot of things to 25 as the prefrontal cortex doesn’t normally develop until around 25. Planning, prioritization, decision making, good judgement, etc all comes with a fully developed prefrontal cortex. Obviously voting should be allowed at 18 (hell I’d allow it at 16) but a lot of things require a fully developed brain.
G idle and kiss of life are the best examples for this like both groups are involved in the process of each comeback and have clear identity like what kind of music they present as a group and while that’s partially because their companies let them to be involved it’s also because they know what they want
the thing about gidle is that their company is utter dogshit and they do everything by themself.... sure because they want to but also because they have no other choice.. didnt they pay half of the superlady mv out of their own pockets?
@@sss-pw3rt doesn’t matter if you like it or not I’m not a fan either. it’s not only that tho. I mean they are lowkey disrespecting their own lable for years now 😂 esp after they dropped soojin.
I never understand parents who allow their minor kids to debute at such young age knowing that they can possibly get saesangs, stalkers, online bullying accounts, massive hate and even getting treated as trash by company.... Minors should be cherished, taken care of.. and this world is cruel.. even an innocent soul who have a dream can be crushed within no minute... Look at le seraffim's eunchae and ive's wonyoung (when she was underage) and illiat's members and many more.. they need positive encouragement not hate.. who knows what they are going through?
Success is a BIG deal in Korea. Because of that it doesn't really surprise me that they'd go to such lengths to make sure their kid could succeed in such a big industry asap.
Parents in Korea want to set their children up for success from a very young age. Which is bad sometimes bc of the extremely competitive environment and pressure.
as a korean(so trust me lol, i’ve had ppl doubt me when i don’t say this), we are encouraged to try become idol because it’s so much easier than our schooling system. teachers sometimes even encourage the kids, and parents too.
Wanted to say the same thing, KOL were, if I remember correctly, all trainees way before, they also had no childhood, they just debuted later and had to have fear for 10 years if they even debut at all or if they wasted their time
@@dragonixheli5474Natty has the longest training time cos she went through other companies like SM and JYP. The rest had a trainee period of about 1-3 years and one of them was already a songwriter/producer before she was told she was too talented and pretty to be behind the scenes… my problem with companies debuting minors is that it doesn’t stop them from giving them “sexy and inappropriate” concepts so why not just go for adults??
@@antinapay I think Nancy in MOMOLAND was still a minor when they debuted and was still not an adult when they got viral with BBOOM BBOOM, plus she got viral for not wearing safety shorts and she was obviously feeling uncomfortable. It's also not only about minors with too sexy concepts, adults also can feel self-conscious about too exposing outfits, even Nayeon as the oldest doesn't always feel comfortable in some outfits.
@@antinapay 9Muses too. Their first leader has a youtube channel and talked about the younger girls feeling uncomfortable with their concept and clothing. Some cried during a mv shoot. Their company took the leader position away from her after she spoke up for the younger members
Real, i really wanna see more +18 new idols instead of literal kids/teenagers, that's the reason why i find difficult to like new groups... like i support young people fighting for their dreams but kids should be kids, then work as adults
That was the first thing I learned about Nowadays when Cube announced they had a new boy group. All of them were adults and they were announced as adults. And I decided I was going to love them regardless of what they sounded like simply for that reason alone. Now, I love them because they're so bad at games, but they don't cheat. Which is so weird to me when I'm used to NU'EST, who cheats as soon as they breathe, and Seventeen...who learned well from their older brother group. But I think it's super endearing.
@@niccole3542 Loving the hostility I sense, thank you. It's more that I use them to feel out group bonds. Because I separate the performer from the entertainer. Case in point, GoSe Seventeen, to me, is not the same as Concert Seventeen. Is there a little bit of crossover? Yes. But they aren't the same. Since Nowadays only has a few songs out, it's not enough of a sample size for me to decide if I like their music or not, but if I like their personalities and the group dynamic, I'm more willing to stay for music I don't aggressively love until I find The Song that makes me a fan of them musically, and then I'll accept other songs even if I didn't originally love them. Which is how I got into most of the groups I both listen to music and watch their content. Usually it was content first, and then music. However, I can name groups where I listen to their music, but don't watch their content, and other groups where I watch their content, but don't necessarily listen to their music. And it's important to note that my first group went straight to the cheating for games, as do most of the other ones I decide to like. Nowadays is the exact opposite and that entertains me. ☺️ Hope that helps!
There are lots of nugu/Unpopular groups who are adults. You can support that are promoting. We;Na BXB Cignature E'last 1CHU CMDM POW BLACKSWAN DUSTIN LAYSHA SECRET NUMBER PURPLE KISS WEI JUST B THE KINGDOM (Formally Kingdom) LIONESSES (A Gay Bg). OMEGA X ATBO YOUNITE ABLUE H1-KEY ILY:1 ICU Q6IX PATTERN 24K+ XODIAC X:IN SEVENUS BBGIRLS PRIMROSE BABYS
Same, I am not even an adult, yet I see most idols debuting nowadays being younger than me somehow. It throws me off, especially thinking about how I was at their age; it's important to grow normally, I cannot imagine having had to deal with a wholeas$ career at those times of my life. It feels sad bcs I used to keep up with every group and now I've almost grown completely detached to this new gen bcs of that
And people always use that as an excuse for oversexualization like Oh but yeahh we get sexy concepts cause theyre all "grown" adults (while some of them just turned 18). Dont get me wrong i think groups should also get more mature concepts if they wish to but putting idols who just turned 18 doing sexy concepts is kinda weird
@@offensiveburrito9941 A group of that dose this a lot to me is kiss of life I was really shocked when I learned that some of the members where freshly 18-19 when the first came on the scene and when I voice my worries about I get called weird and people say they are grown and Can do what they want but don’t you thing is weird that they are so young trying really hard to give off this sexy content idk if it just me
What do mean once you pass 20 you're recognize as an adult, plus kiss of life members have pass 20 and 21 yrs old only the youngest Hanuel is 19yrs old
i mean legally 18 year old is an adult. it’s weird that if you’re not even fully mature mentally or physically the government thinks it’s okay to be with whoever you want. yet can’t drink or smoke for 3 more years after that. it doesn’t make sense
Right on. Totally agree. And I think this is why we see mothering in groups that have older and younger members. I'm thinking of how Sakura is so protective over Eunchae because she's been in the same situation and doesn't want her to go through as much hardships. We see that with others too, but I think Sakura is pretty much famous for doing this.
reason why kiss of life have so much freedom is because the ceo always priority his artist freedom same way how he handle his artist when he was in cube as ceo. so expect they will do their own music taste and a lot of things
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips.
@@moonlightpaw5868 I don't know why but when they debuted I wanted to support them but more I knew about that woman I stayed away from New Jeans. I don't wanna support anything that woman produces, creates. So many years after this...the bomb explodes about her behavior with them.
And it helps that the Lee Hae-in (creative Director ) used to be idol trainee (p101 and idol school) and idol (ibi) is close to natty in the interview she said she wanted Natty and reached out saying basically yes we will support you in what you want to do what music you want to do so come to this company And then Natty was on a show and talked about how Sugarcoat only got two votes for her solo but she was able to get the company to believe in her and trust her to do well Kiss of life is a breath of fresh air
Let me take this a step further: not only should companies not debut minors, but us kpop fans should take some responsibility too as the consumers and stop supporting groups with younger members
@@lemoneverglocean as a minor myself, i have no issue supporting groups with members my age. that’s kinda like saying that im not gonna go shopping because a minor works there. there’s nothing wrong with someone who’s 16-18 wanting to pursue their dreams. it would most likely suck for them because they’d think “wow, nobody even wants to give my group a chance because i’m 16/17.” what companies need to do is not give groups uncomfortable songs and dances (no matter the age) and kpop fans need to learn how to not sexualize and bully others. it’s not the minor’s fault that they wanna be an idol
Rather than saying that, I think we should devote our love to adult groups more. Maybe like a multistan (or just a stan). I agree it's sad that children are exploited but I don't think ignoring them would do them any better.
tbh i feel like going into such a stressful industry as a minor or young adult probably impacts the way the mind and personality develops. its best if someone isnt raised as a celeb they are less likely to adapt entitled behaviours. you need mental strength to be in an industry like that and adolescence is peak mental vulnerability...
Most of the idol became an idol not because other push them to do it, but because they want to do it, it's their dream. That why they can endure all the hard challenge in becoming an idol. Idol have very strong mental not like us, we won't be able to endure the stress if we try to become an idol with half-assed motivation.
Imagine being so talented but you're 23 aka too old to pursue your dream.When I say only adults should debut, I don't say that because I'm jealous of girls/boys my age getting so many things in their life as people in the comment section reply to me but because I want adults to be able to achieve their goals too.
The only real way someone 20+ can debut is off of survival shows, and even that means that you still have a lot of competition. Jisung Wannaone: 29 at debut Hyeonju UNIS: 22 at redebut Yujin Kep1er: 25 at redebut Eunbi Izone: 22 at redebut Yunah ILLIt: 20 at debut Jiwoong: 24 at debut All these trainees had low to no chance of debuting/redebuting if not for their survival shows. There are probably some outliers though.
@raymond241 Hyeonju is Belle right? She already was in cignature for almost 4 years so that doesn't really count, and I think in Good Day but I'm not sure bc of their messy re-debut history.
@@seanthesheep9652 there are 20+ idols who have debuted. People say this *You're Too Old To Debut* but Never look at the lots of nugu companies debuting the 20+ idols
Those adult you think of is also trained since younger days, they aren't starting their training in adult days. Natty for example literally trained for 10 years until she can debut.
It should also only be adults in an industry like this. The work hours are not suited for a kid, and the responsibilities can be way to big of a burden.
Did you forget most of those “Adults” debuted idols trained for 5+ years before debut? Meaning they were probably 12-15. So no, they didn’t have a normal childhood regardless.
That's right, and even those both teens and adult idols receive hate, adults can handle these comments better, at the end teen idols are still growing and these type of hateful comments can affect them a bit more, they should be able to have a more normal childhood
they sacrifice their "normal childhood" to persue a dream, using laws to delay things seems cruel. if you think that will give them a normal childhood then your a fool. if they want normal don't be an idol. Its a choice they make, often with the support of their parents.
@@sss-pw3rtexactly. While I don't agree on debut anyone under 17 this is what I say and mean but ppl call me weird or creepy. Plus it doesn't always work that way Natty from KOF trained 10+ years so she still didn't have a normal childhood. It just prolonged her debut and chances of actually debuting
I personally feel the “minimum age” for the youngest members should be around 16-17, so maybe the maknae and another member or two can be underage for a while after debut but most of the group are adults. Also, another reason for debuting older is so the members can train longer without needing to start excessively young, I’ve noticed that most 4th/5th gen idols train 2-5 years while 3rd gen idols trained 4-7+ years. This allows them to debut with more experience and hopefully avoid things like “bad encore stages” or lipsyncing a lot to sound perfect. And that’s not mentioning that teenagers just get voice cracks and their voices will change as they grow older, which can create discrepancies between old and new material. Debuting older means their voice will “change” less and their old parts will still fit them, and fans who enter the fandom later in their career won’t be confused by how different they sound in older songs.
I think it'd be awkward for the 16 year old to be in a band with adults. The adults can do stuff that 16 year old can't. Maybe the teens in a band together and they enter adulthood together
For me, if they are in performing arts schools like SOPA and Hanlim, I think they should start training (but not debut) when they are 15-16, but for little experience/part time. They would however not attend survival shows or anything. They should debut after they graduate from those schools. For regular school students, they should debut after they graduate, because the school curriculum doesn’t focus on trainees and such. Even homeschooled students.
Heavy on the last line. Of course you don't become a perfect adult at 18, but wanting a higher age like 21 is simply unrealistic in the k-pop industry, and having NO regulation means allowing teens and pre-teens to go through one of the most ruthless and exploitative industries there is, while having little agency to advocate for yourself both legally and experience-wise
@@lordtette It's not unrealistic per se but I was making an argument for the youngest LEGAL age to debut, and it is urealistic for that youngest age to be 21
I'm afraid that this is the exact reason some companies decide to debut minors. Higher ups tend to like young impressionable idols because they can influence them however they want. I think cookie by nwjns is an example of this. They were all minors when this dropped. That didn't stop the company from dressing them in inappropriate outfits and making them dance to such a perverted song (the song isn't perverted. The intentions behind it is.) And HYBE doing the same thing again in le Sserafim debut with that scene in fearless where all members including eunchae who was 15 at that time I think and again in the recent song smart. I think nowadays about IU and her struggles. They love illegally young idols because they can essentially g-roo-m them to best fit their audience. Because why hire adults who's able to defend themselves rather than the impressionable teen kid who'll do it because they like glamour of being an idol. I'm absolutely terrified about grps like unis and young posse. I really hope SK courts pass some sort of safety law for this. This is just outrageous.
A big fat lie oooooo Cookie's choreography was so smart and professional like Did you see any ass shaking there? You guys are the perverted ones for immediately addressing the word cookie to a woman's vagina. I had no idea about that until y'all opened your mouths. Why don't I see any one complaining about LIke that by babymonster, it's literally the same thing. Their's is even more seductive and sexy than New Jeans.
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips.
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips
honestly i don’t think there’s anything wrong with idols debuting at 16/17 but it should definitely be the lower bound for debut age instead of, like, the median. being a trainee is a huge sacrifice of very formative years of your life, and i’m sure lots of idols who debuted very young have/will experience identity crises and trouble separating their self worth from their success as an artist. plus, people don’t suddenly become old hags the second they turn 20. i love seeing idols around my age (mid 20s) debut!
Also, i think that the younger you debut, the less physically/vocally you are prepared to be an Idol. I mean, you could have been "training" for like five years under one company, but if you started when you were eight, not only the training you have done will never be as "full" and efficient as the one you would have done in your adult years, but also there is no way litterally everything about you won't change after hitting puberty. I hope y'all understand me, english Is not my first language😅❤
Case in point: NU'EST. The eldest debuted at eighteen, the OTHER FOUR debuted at sixteen, and among those four is the leader. By the time Produce 101 came around, they'd been out for five years and were "seasoned" idols...but they were only a little older than the median age. They hit their ten year anniversary wifhout a single member having to enlist. And if you look at their music, there's a switch that happened when the maknae line turned eighteen and became adults. They started doing less edm dance and more dance ballad songs. And the Good Bye Bye MV clearly shows that they're taking a stance on what THEY want. And I'm pretty sure that it was the next year that they started in on their trilogy of love song albums (and they suddenly became the most sappy, sentimental goofballs) that THEY chose to do and named the songs and the album titles. (Q Is is the album title, the Q stands for Queen, meant to be their fans, and the song titles in both English and Korean, if you look at their first letters, spell LOVE with the last track forming a heart, LOVE being the fandom name). Compare that with xikers, who have the same age range just ten years later, but debuted an extra year past that (so 1993-1995 vs 2003-2005, debut in 2012 vs debut in 2023). Before their first year was out, the maknae line had all turned eighteen. And the leader is actually the oldest. Or Nowadays, who debuted at the beginning of April this year, who were all adults at debut.
YOU COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!! Like- my entire time as a kpop fan I've been thinking this EXACT THING. I mean- why the hell is it fine to train all mornings and nights since you are 15 without ANY REASSURANCE THAT YOU'LL EVER EVEN DEBUT ALL THE WHILE HAVING LITTLE PARENTAL SUPERVISION?!!
and then for the company to debut half ass trained idols🥴 i feel bad for all those talented girls on RUNext that got eliminated for illit where only Minju can sing
@@graceclover8697 Bang Jeemin was eliminated on the last episode and she's now on ILand 2. And the very first performance she did, one of the judges (it may have been Taeyang) said "As far as I'm concerned, you're ready to debut." It was really kind of funny hearing that KNOWING what was going down with ILLIT because I was several weeks late in starting it. I was like "Whoo, you dodged a bullet there, my dude."
@@graceclover8697don’t let me get started. They eliminated a talented vocalist just because she was “old” (and she is only 2001 liner ). They treated her very badly in the show.
Also young teens are not mentally strong enough to handle all the criticism and hate they get. At the age they are any kind of criticism can affect their mental health greatly. A lot of them get anxiety, depression and even anorexia because of that criticism and hate. Adults are however better at handling criticism and hate.
Debuting an adult makes more sense because by the time they finish training for like 2-4 years and debut by like 18-20yo, they’ll already be 100% sure that they want to be idols and what kind of idol they want to be. Discussions would be easier and signing contracts would be better especially since it would be the idol themselves agreeing to everything in the paperwork and not a parent or adult signing for a minor idol. An adult idol would be more willing go accept the repercussions of the industry than a minor idol and there is already proof of that in modern day. We’re basically parading children around in glitter on stage, singing snd dancing for us and we rip them apart like they are grown adults for things like their bodies and talents. We’re literally bullying children for the sake of entertainment and though this would happen to an adult idol as well, they’d have a better mental state to deal with it more likely than a minor. That probably should be part of their media training and in some companies, it probably is, but its inevitable that someone isn’t gonna like an idol and if the idol is a minor, they will get hurt far worse than an adult would.
Im ngl, I think in a way it’s more profitable if they work with adults. Sure, adult might not let u exploit them, but adults also have more ideas and more experience in life to create better concept, music, choreo, and even better fan service. (Let these adults do half of the work, so yall don’t have to hire so many staff for concept and whatnot as well) As more and more kids debut, it’s more and more obvious that there’s just not a lot of things fans can talk about, which can sometimes make their viral moments be short lived (cause ppl would search idols up and not be able to resonate, and consequently not become a fan). But with adults that have debuted, ppl praised the uni they went, ppl like their attitude regarding work (it’s like semi “just a job” for adult idols), and a lot of times, older idols are just funnier 🤷 So yeh, thank you for coming to my ted talk, I say we hire adults in the creative industry and make them be part of the production team for their concept (not just music anymore)
This video and the comments make me feel a little better because I’m sitting over here seeing most of these new girl groups debuting in the past couple years and yelling at my phone “they’re too young!” I mean, no one is debuting boy groups that are 13-15 years old because of puberty, but that doesn’t mean girls should be debuting at that age. The adults in the room need to see the young people in front of them and not the potential revenue. And waiting a few more years means they will have more practice and mental preparation. For example, there is a noticeable difference between ILLIT and Kiss of Life performances and a lot of that has to do with the age difference and intangible things that come with being older, like musical identity, personal confidence, and maturity. Yes, I realize that Kiss of Life isn’t that much older than ILLIT, but looking back, 18/19 year old me was much more prepared for the world than 15/16 year old me. A lot of change happens to teenagers and each year makes a difference. Can ILLIT mature and improve? Yes, of course, but this video is addressing groups when they debut.
I heard Minzy from 2NE1 talk about how she felt like a dysphoria while in and after leaving the group. It seemed like she felt she didn’t have a normal childhood. She was 14/15 at debut (even she and I, the older cast of glee characters (Rachel, Finn, Kurt) the characters of PLL, and even the older characters of Persona 4 (Yu, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko) would have been in the same class). Bom & Dara are a decade older than her as well. It’s even more odd that f(x), where Victoria was in her 20’s and the other girls were 15/16 at debut. Then with Girls’ Generation, they did Chocolate Love, which f(x)’s version was way more sexy and felt a little burlesque-ish (Amber was 17 at that time, Luna 16, and Sulli and Krystal were 15 and also were Minzy’s age), which is really creepy, especially being their second single. I’m thankful that most minors today aren’t being put in sexual concepts, but honestly if they aren’t 17 or older (I think 17 is ok for debut, since some seniors are 17 and the fact I think they aren’t much differently maturely at that age from a 18/19 year old, but no sexy concepts). I just wish older idols could be acceptable for debut again. I’m almost 31 and I couldn’t imagine being a k-pop idol at 16 (that’s how old I was when I got into k-pop in 2009).
this is the reason why i'm so happy that badvillain debuted with members who are in their late teens to mid-20s! i'm missing the time where 2000-2003 liners aren't "too old" to debut, heck even my age (2004 liner) will be considered too old to debut in a few months!
😂😂😂 True! Look at the issue with Le Sserafim, cause their concept is getting a bit sexier now they face a lot of hate cause their youngest member is still a minor and sometimes those safey shorts don't help.
I wish they would debute more adult groups because i'm 26 years old and listening to a bunch of 14 years olds singing about love and stuff... just feels creppy to me. Let alone stanning those groups... 😖
Also we don’t need adult concepts all the time in kpop. Many adult idols in 3rd gen were heavily forced to wear revealing clothes and s*xualised all the time
I absolutely agree. Adults know more what they want and are less likely to allow people to take advantage of them. Unfortunately, that´s exactly the reason why the companies won´t really do it.
yeah, I mean, some superior producer like Min Heejin is definitely dislike the idea of making a girlgroup of adults, she won't be able to handle them because she demands total control over her ideas
We have the proof now with nj. The kids were brainwashed so bad.. the problem was that their company, just like the other subsidiaries, had total control over her idols, with no external control whatsoever by hybe. They should introduce mandatory mental health support for every label, just like bighit did with their idols, even more if minors gosh.
The problem is that minors tend to be more impressionable, that is why KISSOF had the courage to present their ideas, a minor person/child wouldn't do it.
@@iagreewithyou3478 I’m not talking about debuting as adults or anything. I actually prefer debuting teens. I’m talking about the group members planning out what they want their concept to be and whatnot before they debut
Being a legal minor isn't the moral ground for when someone can or cannot dress in a sexy or provocative manner. Some girls will do it of their own initiative when they're 15, others will never want to do it even past 25. Both should have the freedom to do what they want.
It's so satisfying too. Kissoflife found success because theyre all already talented, skilled, and artistic and this was a joint effort with their company, whereas other groups just become popular because of decisions made my their company for them.
it reminds me of how Natty fought for her solo, sugarcoat, to be released. at first the company worried that sugarcoat song won't be viral but now sugarcoat got more attentions ❤
i absolutely wish that all companies were more like KIOF’s. they aren’t a perfect company but they’re integrating their artists into the creative process and letting them decide what concepts they are comfortable doing and the type of artists they want to be.
Even if they debut at 18 they train before 18. So.... it's still an issue. Tbh companies should train longest 3 years and debut the eldest. E.g train at 18, debut at 22.
Are you for real? Small companies are the scariest, because they go unmonitored and unscrutinized most of the time. Many small companies send members to "accompany" investors/potential investors in private "gatherings" and many under the radar things.
1. Getting training since a really younf age is actually pretty normal for many kids such as piano course, ballet course, sports, visual arts, and many more. 2. The concept of debuting and performing is basically the same with those kids having musical performance, ballet performance, or sports competitions. The basic concept is to showcase their talents to audience It becomes a problem when it turns into business; when all things are monetized; to please the public. That’s where the dirty competition and exploitation starts.
Not to mention a child simply doesn't know what they're getting into. They don't get innuendos. They don't understand how something can be interpreted by the public. It's so scary. The entertainment industry is exploitative as it is. How much worse is it, then, with kids?? How are the labor laws cause some things are fucking weird 😭 nobodsy should débuté before 18, and even then to me at 18 that's still a child imo. I didn't really grow braincells till 19
When kof debuted the members were 18 19 20 that’s adulthood to yall??? Yall acting like they’re so mature just because of a concept their company hands them
I agree with what you are saying. Also, when you debut young and older you have to go through the diets, hate, exhaustion, mistreatment and so much more. It is hard for any age but especially for younger ages because they are still developing their body and brain. Another thing is that companies like to debut younger because they look young, have energy but sadly also more naive and easier to control or manipulate. IMO, I feel like they should start training at 16 or 17 even though they are minors but sometimes they are a bit more mature than 10 or 11. Then, debut 18 or older when they are more mature and actual adults. First, the companies need to be better and treat all their idols nicely and focus on their mental and physical health instead of focusing all on money and fame.
@@ya_zi8658 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_contract There is a whole wikipedia page just for idols slave contracts. Hope that helps. You can leave yes, only if you pay a hefty penalty.
@@ya_zi8658 There is a whole wikipedia page for idols slave contracts (youtube delets my comment with the link but just search slave contract korea). There it also says you can leave if you want, after paying a hefty fine. Which is almost impossible when most trainees already have massive debt, where should they take the money to buy themselves free? 100% slave contract. Hope this helps
the worst thing about debuting kids is some (myself included) don't feel comfortable buying their albums cause it just feels like I'm supporting child labor
SHINee members were mostly underage when they debuted, when they were talking on Weekly Idol about their tenth anniversary, Key said: well, it's a good thing that if we wanted to be in this industry, we started young. And it sounded a bit...harsh, like "we wanted this, we have to take it as it is". They love their team and job but also went through A LOT and they're only in their early 30s.
Kpop companies are terrifying how there's no pop idols health and safety committee that would do regular checks since a lot of smaller groups and mid to high range groups get taken advantage of and they're hit with threats about speaking up they may get removed and never be able to perform
18 is legally an adult in most parts of the world. The definition of the word "adult" is not why anyone is saying anything in kpop lmao. It's simply what the word means
Yeah, but they almost all start training around 12 to 16. Most people are already too busy for that when they're 18. Besides, they can go to normal schools if they want to during training.
OnlyOneOf is a perfect example of this. the youngest member debuted at 20 and the oldest at 28 (and had completed military). their concept has been religious guilt & sexuality from the start and the members have taken part of writing, composing, producing, and choreographing since their debut. not saying that every single decision was 100% from them but their “controversial” comeback libidO (the crotch grab viral move) was choreographed by their own members. they’re comfortable with their adult concept and make music that they love
It’s always better to debut as an adult or at least at 16-17 years old. Many groups I listen to have 13-14 years old as the maknaes and, despite the talent they have, it feels strange.
as a 40-year-old man, i'd very much prefer companies debut idols that are over 18. it makes it a lot easier for me to defend my love for kpop. the decreasing average age of kpop idols is why i had to stop buying physical albums. imagine having to explain a shelf full of CD covers of girls less than half my age.
in my opinion, big companies should just debuted idols at 20 YO minimum (or mostly), espescially for members who already been in trainee for years, big companies have lots of them. And for smaller companies, from 18 YO is good, because idols from smaller companies normally needs a lot of time to get popular so started a bit younger as they get more matured as an idol is kinda good. So yeah, 18-20 is sweet spot. groups like illit or NJ should just debuted every 4-5 years, not every year! it makes "unhealthy" trends so lots of other companies started to do the same too
This is actually a sign that adults being accepted as k-pop idols as adults is a sign of maturity and understanding that not all teenagers would survive the world of k-pop. If I have a daughter, I promised myself to share my knowledge of musicians from the past with her, giving her a chance to decide on what kind of music she would've liked to sing as should she get into becoming a musician someday. She can also be an author if she chooses. But I also promise to help her make her own choices.
It's so beautiful tò see that interactions between Kiof and their Company, because, yes, the Company knows jow tò promote, but is Better, for the whole situation, that the group does a music style that suits the members at the best
So young they don't even get a chance for education thus further making these children vulnerable to shady ceo tactics that pd guy is sounding like Dan shcnieder trying to get a 3 year old to get them started on kpop
My best example is Onlyoneof, youngest debuting at 20 and oldest at 27. KB (the oldest) actually served his military service before debut! With the years the creative freedom they have is blooming, Nine, the maknae and now leader is part in most of the group's songs, lyrics and beats, and the group in general really enjoys being free on stage and they know where they want their music career to go
KoL sounds like unique case. adults that debut were still teens during training with next to no say. ofc it is better debuting 18-21 years old over 13-16 but as long as society still views women esp who are the age of 25+ as used up old maids then we're still gonna get barely legal teenagers with identity outside of being an idol. goes for bg's too. the system is still insanely regimented and they will always lean toward the youth & naivety
🤎🤎🤎🤎🤎exactly. it's not about a specific age of maturity, Not about kpop stating THIS age should be okay for THIS concept" like a stamp of approval, it's about the LEVEL MORALITY with the artists and those artist being heard. That line being drawn early is what makes the difference EVERYTIME. And so many in kpop are now being called out Hybe, Cube etc. For being very open about NOT even considering that line for there idols and THERE in lies the issue.
Training at a young age I understand, it takes a lot of dedication in your younger years to be great at something, but debuting should be done at least after they've finished highschool.
It’s definitely because their company is reasonable, because Haneul was not legally an adult when they debuted. I whole-heartedly agree that idols shouldn’t debut so young and be deprived of their childhoods, but any company could ask their idols - regardless of age - what musical direction they want to take, and have their creative teams take those suggestions and make them a concept and music that is both what they like and age appropriate for whatever age they are. It’s a combination of control, exploitation, and laziness that stops more companies from doing this.
Well either we like it or not young idols creates, attract and generates new fans i believe this is the major reason why kpop companies debut young idols.
Totally. It makes me sick when they tell girls who are only 20 years old that they are too old to debut. SM is launching an international audition right now, and I can't apply because I'm not in the age range anymore (I'm 22). I don't think I would have applied anyways (I don't really wanna work there lol) but it was still a bit frustrating. Like come on 😭
A.C.E's maknae was 20 when they debuted, and the hyung line was 24. They were all trainees for years, sure, but they didn't start training as 11 year olds -_- Plus, debuting adults lets the company to start with more mature/dark concepts from the start, no need to go with 'cute and innocent' concepts that are age-appropriate.
I'm surprised no one is talking about Mamamoo. Solar, the oldest member and leader, was 23 at the time of debut. The youngest member turned 19 the next month after debut. Solar even started training at 20. They have had distinct personalities and musical identities since debut, which have, of course, continued to evolve
true, but let's not forget: -body that will no longer change over time -voice that will no longer change over time -facial details that will no longer change over time - (probably) no more acne thanks to applicable products and treatments - DECREASE IN CHILD LABOR GUYS - ability to realize more mature concepts and sing more mature songs - MORE CULTURE AND LESS IGNORANCE (following school full time!) I would like to continue but that's enough
Newly debuted group is badvillain. And they have reasonable ages in The group aswell they go from 2000-2006. The youngest is 10-11 days from being 18 so. Now in gen 5 ill stan kiss of life and badvillain for now!! 😊
some kpop members debuting at 15 y.o is still so wild to me. I know that they have advantages like looking naive and youthful themes, but still it doesn't feels right because this industry is so harsh and too toxic for underage idol that don't even know how to complaint or stand to their opinion when they're uncomfortable doing something. Having a great stress in such a young age is so bad for their future too :(
it's so funny watching people hide behind the whole kiss of life are adults thing. they're barely that tbh. their youngest is an 04 and oldest being 00... ffs debute real adults already
youngest should be 17/ 18 and people over 25 shouldn't be told to give up their dream and not debuting them despite having talents.
Keep in mind that in Korea, 18 is still considered a minor. 20 is considered the legal age of adulthood. Also, they would still have to train for up to 7-10 years before debuting, so they'd still be child trainees. I definitely agree more adults should debut bc I'm tired of people saying "kpop fans must be pdf files".
@@The_Celestial_Fox those young trainees thing is actually useless cuz adult learn faster than minors.
And 17 year old trainee can train 5 years same as most idols and they will still debut as 21 years old which is still young.
Even just with two years trainee times like newjeans they all can sing and dance better than some idols so long trainee period is not necessary for everyone.
And when trainees are kids former kpop trainee said they don't train kids that much.
@monotzukokuureshii I would argue kids learn faster than adults. Kids spend their childhood learning nonstop and the younger they are, the more of an informational sponge they are. It's like learning a language. Kids learn much faster and easier than adults. And trainees are selected on the basis that they show some pre-existing potential for dancing and/or singing, so teaching a kid who can already do one or the other fairly well would be easier than an adult who might be stuck in their ways and be a bit more inflexible to learning how to improve. Honestly though, you don't hear about many adults becoming trainees, so it's hard to say definitively if children of adults have an easier time training.
The average length of time idols spend as trainees is 7 years. Do some idols only spend 5 years as one, sure, there are some who even spend less than a year as a trainee like Giselle of aespa, but others who spend 10 years as one like Bangchan of skz and Jihyo of Twice.
My point was that if you want idols debut adults and not have children debuting or even being trainees like the video was talking about, 17/18 is not an adult in Korea and even if you do debut people who are the youngest age needed to be an adult (20), that doesn't include the time spent as a trainee, which again the average time is 7 years, meaning the average starting age would be 13.
As much as I enjoy and listen to Newjeans, I wouldn't say they sing and dance better than any idol with a longer training period. Can they sing, sure? Are they amazing dancers? Absolutely! Can they perform (sing and dance simultaneously), I'm going to go with "kinda?" None of their songs are musically challenging enough that it's hard to sing and dance for them unlike other groups like Nmixx with long notes and high notes and belts and such.
As far as kid trainees not being trained much, Korea literally had to update their laws around child labour in the idol industry, making it so they could only train for a certain amount of time in a day so they could focus on their studies. It also prevents from forcing the beauty standards on them so young to protect their physical and mental health. I don't know what senior idols you're referring to, but child trainees and child rookies wouldn't have the need for such a law change if they weren't being trained that much.
@@The_Celestial_Fox I think they changed the age system in South Korea so now they follow the international age system and 18 is the new adult age.
@shinoasada9609 No, the age system to where the Korean age is now gone and the international age is used, so newborns are no longer 1.
Exhibit A: Brown Eyed Girls. Most debuted after age 25 and are very mature. No rifts, no disagreements, and company actually encouraged them to date since debut. To this day only Narsha is married.
Exhibit B: GOD debuted around in their 20s n all of them are very close. They bicker a ton but no rifts. Even stuck firm to keep Park Junhyung from kicked out bc of dating.
Geez as a Cubedol Stan I’m very envious of KIOF’s company, KQ, Highup. They don’t have issues of fans sending online complaints, protest trucks, or protest flowers. Treat fans as third family and fight fiercely against haters.
Oh and idols take a different color n vibe in their 30s.
I remember BEG saying that are more of co-workers, rather than the most sale pitch when it comes to describing the relationship of the members of a group: friends, like BFFs, sisters/brothers. There are various self produced variety shows of the groups that shows how close the members are.
There is nothing Wrong with that but the honesty and how professional BEG is really one of a kind.
Debuting after 25 should be the standard tbh. I actually believe all countries should change the legal age to do a lot of things to 25 as the prefrontal cortex doesn’t normally develop until around 25. Planning, prioritization, decision making, good judgement, etc all comes with a fully developed prefrontal cortex. Obviously voting should be allowed at 18 (hell I’d allow it at 16) but a lot of things require a fully developed brain.
Yesss loved it so much
Brown Eyed Girls is one of the fee groups that does not have any members changed as well since debut in 2006
Plus they are one of the long lasting groups in kpop, im so happy for them, i hope they make a comeback and that gain is okay @@Megazyi
G idle and kiss of life are the best examples for this like both groups are involved in the process of each comeback and have clear identity like what kind of music they present as a group and while that’s partially because their companies let them to be involved it’s also because they know what they want
frr
the thing about gidle is that their company is utter dogshit and they do everything by themself.... sure because they want to but also because they have no other choice.. didnt they pay half of the superlady mv out of their own pockets?
@@Mkgrgr superlady was garbage and i don't blame the company for not wanting to have mich to do with it.
@@sss-pw3rt me when I lie
@@sss-pw3rt doesn’t matter if you like it or not I’m not a fan either. it’s not only that tho. I mean they are lowkey disrespecting their own lable for years now 😂 esp after they dropped soojin.
I never understand parents who allow their minor kids to debute at such young age knowing that they can possibly get saesangs, stalkers, online bullying accounts, massive hate and even getting treated as trash by company.... Minors should be cherished, taken care of.. and this world is cruel.. even an innocent soul who have a dream can be crushed within no minute... Look at le seraffim's eunchae and ive's wonyoung (when she was underage) and illiat's members and many more.. they need positive encouragement not hate.. who knows what they are going through?
Success is a BIG deal in Korea. Because of that it doesn't really surprise me that they'd go to such lengths to make sure their kid could succeed in such a big industry asap.
I think it has to do with money since most idols come from poor family having a celebrity child ensures a wealthy lifestyle for the parents
Parents in Korea want to set their children up for success from a very young age. Which is bad sometimes bc of the extremely competitive environment and pressure.
as a korean(so trust me lol, i’ve had ppl doubt me when i don’t say this), we are encouraged to try become idol because it’s so much easier than our schooling system. teachers sometimes even encourage the kids, and parents too.
The parents only care about fame and money
"Minors have to start training when they are incredibly young and are deprived of a normal childhood" Natty trained for 10 years
Wanted to say the same thing, KOL were, if I remember correctly, all trainees way before, they also had no childhood, they just debuted later and had to have fear for 10 years if they even debut at all or if they wasted their time
@@dragonixheli5474Natty has the longest training time cos she went through other companies like SM and JYP. The rest had a trainee period of about 1-3 years and one of them was already a songwriter/producer before she was told she was too talented and pretty to be behind the scenes… my problem with companies debuting minors is that it doesn’t stop them from giving them “sexy and inappropriate” concepts so why not just go for adults??
@@favour4150I totally agree, can you give a specific example wherein a company that debuted minors with sexy and inappropriate attires?
@@antinapay
I think Nancy in MOMOLAND was still a minor when they debuted and was still not an adult when they got viral with BBOOM BBOOM, plus she got viral for not wearing safety shorts and she was obviously feeling uncomfortable.
It's also not only about minors with too sexy concepts, adults also can feel self-conscious about too exposing outfits, even Nayeon as the oldest doesn't always feel comfortable in some outfits.
@@antinapay 9Muses too. Their first leader has a youtube channel and talked about the younger girls feeling uncomfortable with their concept and clothing. Some cried during a mv shoot.
Their company took the leader position away from her after she spoke up for the younger members
Real, i really wanna see more +18 new idols instead of literal kids/teenagers, that's the reason why i find difficult to like new groups... like i support young people fighting for their dreams but kids should be kids, then work as adults
That was the first thing I learned about Nowadays when Cube announced they had a new boy group. All of them were adults and they were announced as adults. And I decided I was going to love them regardless of what they sounded like simply for that reason alone. Now, I love them because they're so bad at games, but they don't cheat. Which is so weird to me when I'm used to NU'EST, who cheats as soon as they breathe, and Seventeen...who learned well from their older brother group. But I think it's super endearing.
@@silverwyhrecat5 Wtf do games have to do with talent?
@@niccole3542 Loving the hostility I sense, thank you. It's more that I use them to feel out group bonds. Because I separate the performer from the entertainer. Case in point, GoSe Seventeen, to me, is not the same as Concert Seventeen. Is there a little bit of crossover? Yes. But they aren't the same. Since Nowadays only has a few songs out, it's not enough of a sample size for me to decide if I like their music or not, but if I like their personalities and the group dynamic, I'm more willing to stay for music I don't aggressively love until I find The Song that makes me a fan of them musically, and then I'll accept other songs even if I didn't originally love them. Which is how I got into most of the groups I both listen to music and watch their content. Usually it was content first, and then music. However, I can name groups where I listen to their music, but don't watch their content, and other groups where I watch their content, but don't necessarily listen to their music.
And it's important to note that my first group went straight to the cheating for games, as do most of the other ones I decide to like. Nowadays is the exact opposite and that entertains me. ☺️
Hope that helps!
There are lots of nugu/Unpopular groups who are adults. You can support that are promoting.
We;Na
BXB
Cignature
E'last
1CHU
CMDM
POW
BLACKSWAN
DUSTIN
LAYSHA
SECRET NUMBER
PURPLE KISS
WEI
JUST B
THE KINGDOM (Formally Kingdom)
LIONESSES (A Gay Bg).
OMEGA X
ATBO
YOUNITE
ABLUE
H1-KEY
ILY:1
ICU
Q6IX
PATTERN
24K+
XODIAC
X:IN
SEVENUS
BBGIRLS
PRIMROSE
BABYS
Same, I am not even an adult, yet I see most idols debuting nowadays being younger than me somehow. It throws me off, especially thinking about how I was at their age; it's important to grow normally, I cannot imagine having had to deal with a wholeas$ career at those times of my life. It feels sad bcs I used to keep up with every group and now I've almost grown completely detached to this new gen bcs of that
People calling 18-19 year olds “adults” is insane because back then kpop adults were above 26
And people always use that as an excuse for oversexualization like Oh but yeahh we get sexy concepts cause theyre all "grown" adults (while some of them just turned 18). Dont get me wrong i think groups should also get more mature concepts if they wish to but putting idols who just turned 18 doing sexy concepts is kinda weird
@@offensiveburrito9941 A group of that dose this a lot to me is kiss of life I was really shocked when I learned that some of the members where freshly 18-19 when the first came on the scene and when I voice my worries about I get called weird and people say they are grown and Can do what they want but don’t you thing is weird that they are so young trying really hard to give off this sexy content idk if it just me
What do mean once you pass 20 you're recognize as an adult, plus kiss of life members have pass 20 and 21 yrs old only the youngest Hanuel is 19yrs old
true, adult = maturity. most *teen* 'adults' have not matured much yet. you're still neurologically an adolescent until 24.
i mean legally 18 year old is an adult. it’s weird that if you’re not even fully mature mentally or physically the government thinks it’s okay to be with whoever you want. yet can’t drink or smoke for 3 more years after that. it doesn’t make sense
Right on. Totally agree. And I think this is why we see mothering in groups that have older and younger members. I'm thinking of how Sakura is so protective over Eunchae because she's been in the same situation and doesn't want her to go through as much hardships. We see that with others too, but I think Sakura is pretty much famous for doing this.
reason why kiss of life have so much freedom is because the ceo always priority his artist freedom same way how he handle his artist when he was in cube as ceo. so expect they will do their own music taste and a lot of things
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips.
@@moonlightpaw5868 I don't know why but when they debuted I wanted to support them but more I knew about that woman I stayed away from New Jeans. I don't wanna support anything that woman produces, creates. So many years after this...the bomb explodes about her behavior with them.
And it helps that the Lee Hae-in (creative Director ) used to be idol trainee (p101 and idol school) and idol (ibi) is close to natty in the interview she said she wanted Natty and reached out saying basically yes we will support you in what you want to do what music you want to do so come to this company
And then Natty was on a show and talked about how Sugarcoat only got two votes for her solo but she was able to get the company to believe in her and trust her to do well
Kiss of life is a breath of fresh air
That’s so amazing. I’m glad kiof has a supportive company behind them, it makes liking and supporting the group easier too☺️
natty was right, sugarcoat is amazing, i'm glad she released it anyways
Let me take this a step further: not only should companies not debut minors, but us kpop fans should take some responsibility too as the consumers and stop supporting groups with younger members
@@lemoneverglocean as a minor myself, i have no issue supporting groups with members my age. that’s kinda like saying that im not gonna go shopping because a minor works there. there’s nothing wrong with someone who’s 16-18 wanting to pursue their dreams. it would most likely suck for them because they’d think “wow, nobody even wants to give my group a chance because i’m 16/17.” what companies need to do is not give groups uncomfortable songs and dances (no matter the age) and kpop fans need to learn how to not sexualize and bully others. it’s not the minor’s fault that they wanna be an idol
@@lemoneverglocean so your saying that we can’t even support groups and let them get no attention despite all there work because there minors?
Rather than saying that, I think we should devote our love to adult groups more. Maybe like a multistan (or just a stan). I agree it's sad that children are exploited but I don't think ignoring them would do them any better.
tbh i feel like going into such a stressful industry as a minor or young adult probably impacts the way the mind and personality develops. its best if someone isnt raised as a celeb they are less likely to adapt entitled behaviours. you need mental strength to be in an industry like that and adolescence is peak mental vulnerability...
exactly! the way you think when you're an adult is determined by your experiences and what you were taught as a child/teen
Yup especially when you see how weird and creep the majority of stans and antis are online. Children shouldn’t be exposed to that.
Most of the idol became an idol not because other push them to do it, but because they want to do it, it's their dream.
That why they can endure all the hard challenge in becoming an idol.
Idol have very strong mental not like us, we won't be able to endure the stress if we try to become an idol with half-assed motivation.
Imagine being so talented but you're 23 aka too old to pursue your dream.When I say only adults should debut, I don't say that because I'm jealous of girls/boys my age getting so many things in their life as people in the comment section reply to me but because I want adults to be able to achieve their goals too.
The only real way someone 20+ can debut is off of survival shows, and even that means that you still have a lot of competition.
Jisung Wannaone: 29 at debut
Hyeonju UNIS: 22 at redebut
Yujin Kep1er: 25 at redebut
Eunbi Izone: 22 at redebut
Yunah ILLIt: 20 at debut
Jiwoong: 24 at debut
All these trainees had low to no chance of debuting/redebuting if not for their survival shows. There are probably some outliers though.
Like if you've seen artists like Kahi on the stage... she came back after becoming a mom and oh my god, I've rarely seen such magnetic stage presence
@raymond241 Hyeonju is Belle right? She already was in cignature for almost 4 years so that doesn't really count, and I think in Good Day but I'm not sure bc of their messy re-debut history.
@@seanthesheep9652 there are 20+ idols who have debuted. People say this *You're Too Old To Debut* but Never look at the lots of nugu companies debuting the 20+ idols
Those adult you think of is also trained since younger days, they aren't starting their training in adult days.
Natty for example literally trained for 10 years until she can debut.
It should also only be adults in an industry like this. The work hours are not suited for a kid, and the responsibilities can be way to big of a burden.
There are laws around working hours for kids in the entertainment industry in oorea
Did you forget most of those “Adults” debuted idols trained for 5+ years before debut? Meaning they were probably 12-15. So no, they didn’t have a normal childhood regardless.
That's right, and even those both teens and adult idols receive hate, adults can handle these comments better, at the end teen idols are still growing and these type of hateful comments can affect them a bit more, they should be able to have a more normal childhood
they sacrifice their "normal childhood" to persue a dream, using laws to delay things seems cruel. if you think that will give them a normal childhood then your a fool. if they want normal don't be an idol. Its a choice they make, often with the support of their parents.
@@sss-pw3rtexactly. While I don't agree on debut anyone under 17 this is what I say and mean but ppl call me weird or creepy. Plus it doesn't always work that way Natty from KOF trained 10+ years so she still didn't have a normal childhood. It just prolonged her debut and chances of actually debuting
I personally feel the “minimum age” for the youngest members should be around 16-17, so maybe the maknae and another member or two can be underage for a while after debut but most of the group are adults. Also, another reason for debuting older is so the members can train longer without needing to start excessively young, I’ve noticed that most 4th/5th gen idols train 2-5 years while 3rd gen idols trained 4-7+ years. This allows them to debut with more experience and hopefully avoid things like “bad encore stages” or lipsyncing a lot to sound perfect. And that’s not mentioning that teenagers just get voice cracks and their voices will change as they grow older, which can create discrepancies between old and new material. Debuting older means their voice will “change” less and their old parts will still fit them, and fans who enter the fandom later in their career won’t be confused by how different they sound in older songs.
No, 19 should be he minimum since that's the age of adulthood, 18 at the lowest
i agree with you. 16 -=younger nope.
I think it'd be awkward for the 16 year old to be in a band with adults. The adults can do stuff that 16 year old can't. Maybe the teens in a band together and they enter adulthood together
there should a law, for example in my country you can't legally work under 15 yo
For me, if they are in performing arts schools like SOPA and Hanlim, I think they should start training (but not debut) when they are 15-16, but for little experience/part time. They would however not attend survival shows or anything. They should debut after they graduate from those schools. For regular school students, they should debut after they graduate, because the school curriculum doesn’t focus on trainees and such. Even homeschooled students.
It's crazy how we should REASON why its a good idea not to exploit children.
Heavy on the last line. Of course you don't become a perfect adult at 18, but wanting a higher age like 21 is simply unrealistic in the k-pop industry, and having NO regulation means allowing teens and pre-teens to go through one of the most ruthless and exploitative industries there is, while having little agency to advocate for yourself both legally and experience-wise
Why would it be unrealistic for a 21 year old to debut?
@@lordtette It's not unrealistic per se but I was making an argument for the youngest LEGAL age to debut, and it is urealistic for that youngest age to be 21
lol, forcing them to debut later will just make the training periods longer. Parents need to do their job and say no to thir children.
@@sss-pw3rtthe issue isnt parents, companies literally age cap auditions
I'm afraid that this is the exact reason some companies decide to debut minors. Higher ups tend to like young impressionable idols because they can influence them however they want. I think cookie by nwjns is an example of this. They were all minors when this dropped. That didn't stop the company from dressing them in inappropriate outfits and making them dance to such a perverted song (the song isn't perverted. The intentions behind it is.) And HYBE doing the same thing again in le Sserafim debut with that scene in fearless where all members including eunchae who was 15 at that time I think and again in the recent song smart. I think nowadays about IU and her struggles. They love illegally young idols because they can essentially g-roo-m them to best fit their audience. Because why hire adults who's able to defend themselves rather than the impressionable teen kid who'll do it because they like glamour of being an idol. I'm absolutely terrified about grps like unis and young posse. I really hope SK courts pass some sort of safety law for this. This is just outrageous.
HYBE = Le Sserafim, it's the same
Disney = Avengers.
A big fat lie oooooo
Cookie's choreography was so smart and professional like
Did you see any ass shaking there?
You guys are the perverted ones for immediately addressing the word cookie to a woman's vagina. I had no idea about that until y'all opened your mouths.
Why don't I see any one complaining about LIke that by babymonster, it's literally the same thing. Their's is even more seductive and sexy than New Jeans.
Exect point 👌
plus they debuted way too while being young and unprepared, you can clearly see it when they sing on stage and such
Let a child be a child
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips.
Look at NewJeans. Mi Heejin do everything for them so without Mi Heejin they can’t do anything. They even have to think her when she use them as asswhips
@@violet6507 no
honestly i don’t think there’s anything wrong with idols debuting at 16/17 but it should definitely be the lower bound for debut age instead of, like, the median. being a trainee is a huge sacrifice of very formative years of your life, and i’m sure lots of idols who debuted very young have/will experience identity crises and trouble separating their self worth from their success as an artist. plus, people don’t suddenly become old hags the second they turn 20. i love seeing idols around my age (mid 20s) debut!
Also, i think that the younger you debut, the less physically/vocally you are prepared to be an Idol. I mean, you could have been "training" for like five years under one company, but if you started when you were eight, not only the training you have done will never be as "full" and efficient as the one you would have done in your adult years, but also there is no way litterally everything about you won't change after hitting puberty. I hope y'all understand me, english Is not my first language😅❤
Case in point: NU'EST. The eldest debuted at eighteen, the OTHER FOUR debuted at sixteen, and among those four is the leader. By the time Produce 101 came around, they'd been out for five years and were "seasoned" idols...but they were only a little older than the median age. They hit their ten year anniversary wifhout a single member having to enlist. And if you look at their music, there's a switch that happened when the maknae line turned eighteen and became adults. They started doing less edm dance and more dance ballad songs. And the Good Bye Bye MV clearly shows that they're taking a stance on what THEY want. And I'm pretty sure that it was the next year that they started in on their trilogy of love song albums (and they suddenly became the most sappy, sentimental goofballs) that THEY chose to do and named the songs and the album titles. (Q Is is the album title, the Q stands for Queen, meant to be their fans, and the song titles in both English and Korean, if you look at their first letters, spell LOVE with the last track forming a heart, LOVE being the fandom name).
Compare that with xikers, who have the same age range just ten years later, but debuted an extra year past that (so 1993-1995 vs 2003-2005, debut in 2012 vs debut in 2023). Before their first year was out, the maknae line had all turned eighteen. And the leader is actually the oldest. Or Nowadays, who debuted at the beginning of April this year, who were all adults at debut.
YOU COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!! Like- my entire time as a kpop fan I've been thinking this EXACT THING. I mean- why the hell is it fine to train all mornings and nights since you are 15 without ANY REASSURANCE THAT YOU'LL EVER EVEN DEBUT ALL THE WHILE HAVING LITTLE PARENTAL SUPERVISION?!!
Hello? Seventeen? It's a miracle they're all as well adjusted as they are.
and then for the company to debut half ass trained idols🥴 i feel bad for all those talented girls on RUNext that got eliminated for illit where only Minju can sing
@@graceclover8697 Bang Jeemin was eliminated on the last episode and she's now on ILand 2. And the very first performance she did, one of the judges (it may have been Taeyang) said "As far as I'm concerned, you're ready to debut." It was really kind of funny hearing that KNOWING what was going down with ILLIT because I was several weeks late in starting it. I was like "Whoo, you dodged a bullet there, my dude."
@@graceclover8697don’t let me get started. They eliminated a talented vocalist just because she was “old” (and she is only 2001 liner ). They treated her very badly in the show.
Also young teens are not mentally strong enough to handle all the criticism and hate they get. At the age they are any kind of criticism can affect their mental health greatly. A lot of them get anxiety, depression and even anorexia because of that criticism and hate. Adults are however better at handling criticism and hate.
Debuting an adult makes more sense because by the time they finish training for like 2-4 years and debut by like 18-20yo, they’ll already be 100% sure that they want to be idols and what kind of idol they want to be. Discussions would be easier and signing contracts would be better especially since it would be the idol themselves agreeing to everything in the paperwork and not a parent or adult signing for a minor idol. An adult idol would be more willing go accept the repercussions of the industry than a minor idol and there is already proof of that in modern day. We’re basically parading children around in glitter on stage, singing snd dancing for us and we rip them apart like they are grown adults for things like their bodies and talents. We’re literally bullying children for the sake of entertainment and though this would happen to an adult idol as well, they’d have a better mental state to deal with it more likely than a minor. That probably should be part of their media training and in some companies, it probably is, but its inevitable that someone isn’t gonna like an idol and if the idol is a minor, they will get hurt far worse than an adult would.
Im ngl, I think in a way it’s more profitable if they work with adults. Sure, adult might not let u exploit them, but adults also have more ideas and more experience in life to create better concept, music, choreo, and even better fan service. (Let these adults do half of the work, so yall don’t have to hire so many staff for concept and whatnot as well)
As more and more kids debut, it’s more and more obvious that there’s just not a lot of things fans can talk about, which can sometimes make their viral moments be short lived (cause ppl would search idols up and not be able to resonate, and consequently not become a fan). But with adults that have debuted, ppl praised the uni they went, ppl like their attitude regarding work (it’s like semi “just a job” for adult idols), and a lot of times, older idols are just funnier 🤷
So yeh, thank you for coming to my ted talk, I say we hire adults in the creative industry and make them be part of the production team for their concept (not just music anymore)
This video and the comments make me feel a little better because I’m sitting over here seeing most of these new girl groups debuting in the past couple years and yelling at my phone “they’re too young!” I mean, no one is debuting boy groups that are 13-15 years old because of puberty, but that doesn’t mean girls should be debuting at that age. The adults in the room need to see the young people in front of them and not the potential revenue. And waiting a few more years means they will have more practice and mental preparation. For example, there is a noticeable difference between ILLIT and Kiss of Life performances and a lot of that has to do with the age difference and intangible things that come with being older, like musical identity, personal confidence, and maturity. Yes, I realize that Kiss of Life isn’t that much older than ILLIT, but looking back, 18/19 year old me was much more prepared for the world than 15/16 year old me. A lot of change happens to teenagers and each year makes a difference. Can ILLIT mature and improve? Yes, of course, but this video is addressing groups when they debut.
I heard Minzy from 2NE1 talk about how she felt like a dysphoria while in and after leaving the group. It seemed like she felt she didn’t have a normal childhood. She was 14/15 at debut (even she and I, the older cast of glee characters (Rachel, Finn, Kurt) the characters of PLL, and even the older characters of Persona 4 (Yu, Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko) would have been in the same class). Bom & Dara are a decade older than her as well.
It’s even more odd that f(x), where Victoria was in her 20’s and the other girls were 15/16 at debut. Then with Girls’ Generation, they did Chocolate Love, which f(x)’s version was way more sexy and felt a little burlesque-ish (Amber was 17 at that time, Luna 16, and Sulli and Krystal were 15 and also were Minzy’s age), which is really creepy, especially being their second single.
I’m thankful that most minors today aren’t being put in sexual concepts, but honestly if they aren’t 17 or older (I think 17 is ok for debut, since some seniors are 17 and the fact I think they aren’t much differently maturely at that age from a 18/19 year old, but no sexy concepts). I just wish older idols could be acceptable for debut again. I’m almost 31 and I couldn’t imagine being a k-pop idol at 16 (that’s how old I was when I got into k-pop in 2009).
this is the reason why i'm so happy that badvillain debuted with members who are in their late teens to mid-20s! i'm missing the time where 2000-2003 liners aren't "too old" to debut, heck even my age (2004 liner) will be considered too old to debut in a few months!
@@minhyuklees1bebe902 Yes even When hybe take auditions now the eligibility is child born after 2006 means 18 years old CAN'T give auditions
😂😂😂 True! Look at the issue with Le Sserafim, cause their concept is getting a bit sexier now they face a lot of hate cause their youngest member is still a minor and sometimes those safey shorts don't help.
I wish they would debute more adult groups because i'm 26 years old and listening to a bunch of 14 years olds singing about love and stuff... just feels creppy to me. Let alone stanning those groups... 😖
Have you tried listening to 2nd gen kpop groups 9even those who arent currently active)? Surely, you'd love their music!
@@ShannahMarieMontales of course i love many 2nd gen groups! I just meant the kpop groups that debate these days 😅
Also we don’t need adult concepts all the time in kpop. Many adult idols in 3rd gen were heavily forced to wear revealing clothes and s*xualised all the time
I absolutely agree. Adults know more what they want and are less likely to allow people to take advantage of them. Unfortunately, that´s exactly the reason why the companies won´t really do it.
yeah, I mean, some superior producer like Min Heejin is definitely dislike the idea of making a girlgroup of adults, she won't be able to handle them because she demands total control over her ideas
That’s what I have been saying the whole time.
We have the proof now with nj. The kids were brainwashed so bad.. the problem was that their company, just like the other subsidiaries, had total control over her idols, with no external control whatsoever by hybe. They should introduce mandatory mental health support for every label, just like bighit did with their idols, even more if minors gosh.
The problem is that minors tend to be more impressionable, that is why KISSOF had the courage to present their ideas, a minor person/child wouldn't do it.
That kiss of life situation sounds amazing. I feel like kpop groups would do better if that were the average process for it
But Kiof is not an exception. Most of their members have been training and/or working from when they were teens. One of them is still underaged too.
@@iagreewithyou3478 I’m not talking about debuting as adults or anything. I actually prefer debuting teens. I’m talking about the group members planning out what they want their concept to be and whatnot before they debut
@@iagreewithyou3478Haneul is not underage. She's 19 years old, a legal adult
If they debuted adults, people wouldn't get mad at adult themes. Minors should not be sexualized, period.
Adult themes in kpop is just a excuse to act like whore if they want to act like hookers they can go be a American artists
Being a legal minor isn't the moral ground for when someone can or cannot dress in a sexy or provocative manner. Some girls will do it of their own initiative when they're 15, others will never want to do it even past 25. Both should have the freedom to do what they want.
It's so satisfying too. Kissoflife found success because theyre all already talented, skilled, and artistic and this was a joint effort with their company, whereas other groups just become popular because of decisions made my their company for them.
it reminds me of how Natty fought for her solo, sugarcoat, to be released. at first the company worried that sugarcoat song won't be viral but now sugarcoat got more attentions ❤
i absolutely wish that all companies were more like KIOF’s. they aren’t a perfect company but they’re integrating their artists into the creative process and letting them decide what concepts they are comfortable doing and the type of artists they want to be.
Yeah the artists that over sexualize themselves like every other American artists….
Even if they debut at 18 they train before 18. So.... it's still an issue.
Tbh companies should train longest 3 years and debut the eldest. E.g train at 18, debut at 22.
It’s always the small companies that treat their idols right (or better than big companies Atleast)
Are you for real? Small companies are the scariest, because they go unmonitored and unscrutinized most of the time. Many small companies send members to "accompany" investors/potential investors in private "gatherings" and many under the radar things.
get out from your cave
The problem is the parents who are greedy enough to take away their children's childhood or teen years in labor.
1. Getting training since a really younf age is actually pretty normal for many kids such as piano course, ballet course, sports, visual arts, and many more.
2. The concept of debuting and performing is basically the same with those kids having musical performance, ballet performance, or sports competitions. The basic concept is to showcase their talents to audience
It becomes a problem when it turns into business; when all things are monetized; to please the public.
That’s where the dirty competition and exploitation starts.
Not to mention a child simply doesn't know what they're getting into. They don't get innuendos. They don't understand how something can be interpreted by the public. It's so scary.
The entertainment industry is exploitative as it is. How much worse is it, then, with kids?? How are the labor laws cause some things are fucking weird 😭 nobodsy should débuté before 18, and even then to me at 18 that's still a child imo. I didn't really grow braincells till 19
This is why I love kiss of life
When kof debuted the members were 18 19 20 that’s adulthood to yall??? Yall acting like they’re so mature just because of a concept their company hands them
I agree with what you are saying. Also, when you debut young and older you have to go through the diets, hate, exhaustion, mistreatment and so much more. It is hard for any age but especially for younger ages because they are still developing their body and brain. Another thing is that companies like to debut younger because they look young, have energy but sadly also more naive and easier to control or manipulate. IMO, I feel like they should start training at 16 or 17 even though they are minors but sometimes they are a bit more mature than 10 or 11. Then, debut 18 or older when they are more mature and actual adults. First, the companies need to be better and treat all their idols nicely and focus on their mental and physical health instead of focusing all on money and fame.
Also: NO CHILDLABOR
But you’re able to work at 16😂how is that child labour?
@@ya_zi8658 Not under a slave contract
@@Niniriina they aren’t slave contracts… you can actually just leave whenever you want! Hope that helps
@@ya_zi8658 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_contract
There is a whole wikipedia page just for idols slave contracts. Hope that helps.
You can leave yes, only if you pay a hefty penalty.
@@ya_zi8658 There is a whole wikipedia page for idols slave contracts (youtube delets my comment with the link but just search slave contract korea).
There it also says you can leave if you want, after paying a hefty fine. Which is almost impossible when most trainees already have massive debt, where should they take the money to buy themselves free?
100% slave contract. Hope this helps
bruh what do you think the agencies WANT, they loveee a kid because they'll listen to authority
They Will be stressfull in the school if they didn't become trainers, so, I don't know what it's worst
Bro no child should have a CAREER period. I thought society agreed that was an adult thing.
Some teens do have careers tho. It’s technically legal
the worst thing about debuting kids is some (myself included) don't feel comfortable buying their albums cause it just feels like I'm supporting child labor
Showing illit for the part u talk abt minors is DIABOLICAL 😂
Personally I really like groups that have a more mature feel to them
We literally have examples of groups with bangers music and not having too young idols like
Kiof blackpink gidle aespa
Debuting as adults was a smart decision to both parties, especially this idol has managerial skills.
SHINee members were mostly underage when they debuted, when they were talking on Weekly Idol about their tenth anniversary, Key said: well, it's a good thing that if we wanted to be in this industry, we started young. And it sounded a bit...harsh, like "we wanted this, we have to take it as it is". They love their team and job but also went through A LOT and they're only in their early 30s.
haneul and belle debuted at 18 and 19 respectively, they are NOT adults. they just aren't minors and it's not the same.
they are legally adults ;3
So if someone who isn't a minor isn't an adult, then what are they?😭😹😹😹
what a stupid argument, who tf gave you smartphone to argue on internet...
Oh my god the way you present your pints is SO THOROUGH
Kpop companies are terrifying how there's no pop idols health and safety committee that would do regular checks since a lot of smaller groups and mid to high range groups get taken advantage of and they're hit with threats about speaking up they may get removed and never be able to perform
Calling 18 year olds grown adults is kinda pushing it. it's the reason why people think 23 is too old for debuting
18 year olds are adults in majority of coutries apart from America cus u are all underdeveloped there
18 is legally an adult in most parts of the world. The definition of the word "adult" is not why anyone is saying anything in kpop lmao. It's simply what the word means
Yeah, but they almost all start training around 12 to 16. Most people are already too busy for that when they're 18. Besides, they can go to normal schools if they want to during training.
that’s why i love S2, so happy kiof have it ok in their company
never trust a company. i’m glad they’re giving kiof the treatment they deserve but somehow a company will always fuck it up.
@@skzginaaa yea i know
This should be the goddman standard no more kids debuting
OnlyOneOf is a perfect example of this. the youngest member debuted at 20 and the oldest at 28 (and had completed military). their concept has been religious guilt & sexuality from the start and the members have taken part of writing, composing, producing, and choreographing since their debut. not saying that every single decision was 100% from them but their “controversial” comeback libidO (the crotch grab viral move) was choreographed by their own members. they’re comfortable with their adult concept and make music that they love
FINALLY kpop stans are starting to talk about this, spending years trying to get the point across to deaf ears almost drove me crazy
It’s always better to debut as an adult or at least at 16-17 years old. Many groups I listen to have 13-14 years old as the maknaes and, despite the talent they have, it feels strange.
"Adult"? The maknae literally has 18 years old 💀💀
19*. She is a legal adult
as a 40-year-old man, i'd very much prefer companies debut idols that are over 18. it makes it a lot easier for me to defend my love for kpop.
the decreasing average age of kpop idols is why i had to stop buying physical albums. imagine having to explain a shelf full of CD covers of girls less than half my age.
Exactly, At least there should be an increase in age in the other direction
Exactly 18 is the best age for debutimg
19, 18 is still a minor in Korea. It's easier if they're a legal adult
in my opinion, big companies should just debuted idols at 20 YO minimum (or mostly), espescially for members who already been in trainee for years, big companies have lots of them. And for smaller companies, from 18 YO is good, because idols from smaller companies normally needs a lot of time to get popular so started a bit younger as they get more matured as an idol is kinda good. So yeah, 18-20 is sweet spot. groups like illit or NJ should just debuted every 4-5 years, not every year! it makes "unhealthy" trends so lots of other companies started to do the same too
This is actually a sign that adults being accepted as k-pop idols as adults is a sign of maturity and understanding that not all teenagers would survive the world of k-pop. If I have a daughter, I promised myself to share my knowledge of musicians from the past with her, giving her a chance to decide on what kind of music she would've liked to sing as should she get into becoming a musician someday. She can also be an author if she chooses. But I also promise to help her make her own choices.
As someone who was a kpop trainee and still has aspirations to be an idol, I wish my age (2000 liner) wasnt a bad thing, but a good one. ;(
This. I agree with Kiss of Life
It's so beautiful tò see that interactions between Kiof and their Company, because, yes, the Company knows jow tò promote, but is Better, for the whole situation, that the group does a music style that suits the members at the best
Like you said it can't be helped, don't worry too much about it. We know you did you best jake🥺💗
So young they don't even get a chance for education thus further making these children vulnerable to shady ceo tactics that pd guy is sounding like Dan shcnieder trying to get a 3 year old to get them started on kpop
My best example is Onlyoneof, youngest debuting at 20 and oldest at 27. KB (the oldest) actually served his military service before debut! With the years the creative freedom they have is blooming, Nine, the maknae and now leader is part in most of the group's songs, lyrics and beats, and the group in general really enjoys being free on stage and they know where they want their music career to go
KoL sounds like unique case. adults that debut were still teens during training with next to no say. ofc it is better debuting 18-21 years old over 13-16 but as long as society still views women esp who are the age of 25+ as used up old maids then we're still gonna get barely legal teenagers with identity outside of being an idol. goes for bg's too. the system is still insanely regimented and they will always lean toward the youth & naivety
Exactly
🤎🤎🤎🤎🤎exactly. it's not about a specific age of maturity, Not about kpop stating THIS age should be okay for THIS concept" like a stamp of approval, it's about the LEVEL MORALITY with the artists and those artist being heard. That line being drawn early is what makes the difference EVERYTIME. And so many in kpop are now being called out Hybe, Cube etc. For being very open about NOT even considering that line for there idols and THERE in lies the issue.
Training at a young age I understand, it takes a lot of dedication in your younger years to be great at something, but debuting should be done at least after they've finished highschool.
It’s definitely because their company is reasonable, because Haneul was not legally an adult when they debuted.
I whole-heartedly agree that idols shouldn’t debut so young and be deprived of their childhoods, but any company could ask their idols - regardless of age - what musical direction they want to take, and have their creative teams take those suggestions and make them a concept and music that is both what they like and age appropriate for whatever age they are.
It’s a combination of control, exploitation, and laziness that stops more companies from doing this.
Well either we like it or not young idols creates, attract and generates new fans i believe this is the major reason why kpop companies debut young idols.
Totally. It makes me sick when they tell girls who are only 20 years old that they are too old to debut.
SM is launching an international audition right now, and I can't apply because I'm not in the age range anymore (I'm 22). I don't think I would have applied anyways (I don't really wanna work there lol) but it was still a bit frustrating. Like come on 😭
I LOVEE KISS OF LIFE!! when i watch them/listen to their music i can actually relate to them as women
A.C.E's maknae was 20 when they debuted, and the hyung line was 24. They were all trainees for years, sure, but they didn't start training as 11 year olds -_- Plus, debuting adults lets the company to start with more mature/dark concepts from the start, no need to go with 'cute and innocent' concepts that are age-appropriate.
This was beautifully put ❤
I'm surprised no one is talking about Mamamoo. Solar, the oldest member and leader, was 23 at the time of debut. The youngest member turned 19 the next month after debut. Solar even started training at 20. They have had distinct personalities and musical identities since debut, which have, of course, continued to evolve
true, but let's not forget:
-body that will no longer change over time
-voice that will no longer change over time
-facial details that will no longer change over time
- (probably) no more acne thanks to applicable products and treatments
- DECREASE IN CHILD LABOR GUYS
- ability to realize more mature concepts and sing more mature songs
- MORE CULTURE AND LESS IGNORANCE (following school full time!)
I would like to continue but that's enough
And they write their ow music! And there see ladies are very talented!!!
Newly debuted group is badvillain. And they have reasonable ages in The group aswell they go from 2000-2006. The youngest is 10-11 days from being 18 so. Now in gen 5 ill stan kiss of life and badvillain for now!! 😊
You should like Nowadays too. They debuted as all adults.
some kpop members debuting at 15 y.o is still so wild to me. I know that they have advantages like looking naive and youthful themes, but still it doesn't feels right because this industry is so harsh and too toxic for underage idol that don't even know how to complaint or stand to their opinion when they're uncomfortable doing something.
Having a great stress in such a young age is so bad for their future too :(
it's so funny watching people hide behind the whole kiss of life are adults thing. they're barely that tbh. their youngest is an 04 and oldest being 00... ffs debute real adults already
OX
yep. a reasonable company 👍🏻
very well spoken and good video!
agree. g idle and kiof is the great examples of this case