I'm fine with criminals being banned from stable jump points. It makes sense, and it provides motives for criminal types to look for alternatives. Part of being a criminal is being creative after all. I suspect as things go along this will be the function of unstable wormhole. As it should be criminality is risky.
Criminals need to hire people with clean ships with clean captains to smuggle them, that's been the case for basically all of human history. Currently the game's mechanics have this omnipotent enforcement regime because it's a game and the game simply knows where everything is at all times anyway unlike the real world. Transit denial should be based only on the reputation/crimestat of players occupying a seat of the craft. It'll be a far better gameplay loop where pirates seeking to move around need to actually be smuggled, and this actually gives you a reason to have something like a pocket carrier to transport a bunch of fighters for a raid. It's a lot of hassle, so the juice better be worth the squeeze, way too much effort to pad-crash someone in an aurora.
Almost everyone agrees with this- the issue is those alternatives don't yet exist. That said even when alternative do exist, I agree with morph and I do think they should be able to attempt to smash their way through the gate under heavy fire from the uee. The more important the gate to the uee the more heavily defended it is and thus some gates it would still be near impossible to run the blockade. this just creates a fun gameplay element and we could even see criminally controlled gates where you either have an option to pay the criminals to use the gate or attempt to smash your way through.
No the UUE having control of its border to try and prevent bad actors like xeno threat from coming into their space with out challenge makes perfect sense. Also being a pirate in Stanton should be very hard as it’s UUE monitored space and should have consequences like this.
I think the UEE point just beyond the jump exit is a smart move. Some might find it sad that it's not immediately on-guard, but I reckon it's best for the fluidity of gameplay. As for the pirates not able to use the UEE points, it makes sense and creates the purpose for the unstable wormholes that you can find yourself. Either be a pirate and find those points, or stick to petty crime and don't get a bigger crime stat. This would also finally give piracy some actual risk instead of being a banter-with-friends time sink. (no, you can't convince me there's any risk in piracy currently, especially not when you have a squad like a certain PvPer on this platform)
I think that ATC refusing to let pirates through the stable/persistent gates on both ends of the JP makes sense, forcing pirates who are in Stanton and Pyro to be required to look for the temporary JPs in each system near the stable JP to travel between the systems. It's not limiting pirate players from going to Pyro, but giving pirates consequences for their actions choosing to be pirates. Otherwise, pirates will still be able to remove their crimestat other ways to have a 2 or lower and be able to use the main JP.
Totally agree. And as a part time pirate, I never get a CS, or if I do I clear it, there are many ways, which usually need multiplayer or org mates. But there’s always a way
@@thel1tch857 That's fine, Pirates will then have to hire smugglers, morally grey people who transport loot for a price who have a clean rep. This ensures player interaction. And if a pirate wants to go to Pyro right now, they can just hop onto a ship that's going to Pyro and be smuggled there.
agreed, though I think it's a bit harsh blocking them whilst the alternative jump points are not implemented, they should let them through for now, maybe at a higher cost or something? but till the alternatives are set up, I don't think it's fair to outright block them, when they "normally" would have this alternative jump point to traverse through
My position on this is that pirates choose to be pirates. They reap the benefits and deal with the risks of that playstyle. I've considered your argument Morph but I just can't reconcile criminals enjoying the same privileges as lawful citizens; that just doesn't seem logical to me. I'm therefore in accordance with CI's stance. Thanks for the video.
And so far, it's an absolute joke of a punishment. I swear if I didn't hate the idea of screwing up someone's session, I'd be one lol... It's the easiest game loop in Stanton. Just bring friends and you'll make cash hand over fist with little to no consequences.
@@durtyred86that‘s simply not true. The consequences are next to none, I give you that. But if you’re in it for profit, piracy is the wrong profession for you. Currently, since there are so few players in a server, it is incredibly hard to find a target. Sometimes you wait for hours and nothing happens. If you do, however find a target, you can make a nice profit, IF you are pirating solo. Splitting the already very rare profits under a group of five or more makes them so insignificant that it easily comes to show that most pirates are doing it not for the money, but for emergent player driven gameplay
Yes, there need to be more protection around protected outposts for example , like UEE sec coming in when you are attacked, NPCs, turrets, as opposed to this fictional “armistice” zone that cannot be explained
It is not that hard. You clear your crime stat to leave Stanton. When you are in Pyro, you're only limited to not doing illegal activities close to the gate. You have a HUGE rest of the system to pirate in and still able to travel back and forth because you will not receive a crime stat anywhere else in Pyro. No gate camping. It would be bad gameplay that doesn't take skill when there is only one gate to use atm.
Permanent jump points are essentially manned border checkpoints. I feel like if pirates want to smuggle goods or themselves through those, they will have to hire someone to do that for them. This is why I think Crimestat should be tied to ship ownership - if you smuggle yourself through on someone's ship or stow away, only a deep scan should be able to detect you, and that should also depend on your EM signature. I think currently if you have a Crimestat and jump on someone's ship who doesn't, they'll get shot at by the authorities. That is (I hope) a bug and not an intended feature. Being a criminal in the game should require thinking and acting like a criminal would, not being let through everywhere because it's a legitimate playstyle. That's metagaming.
If it's possible for a ship owner to not know a stowaway is on their ship then I think it should be possible for ATC to not know... Maybe they can link it to whether or not a person is in the owners party or not.
i think that having the starlifter and transporting criminals (and//or their ship) would be incredible because it allows more money options and depth into criminal systems
I think that pirates being unable to use a UEE jump point when they have a crimestat makes perfect sense. It encourages pirate players to pirate in Pyro, as provided they dont attack anything UEE they wont get a crimestat and can still travel freely back to Stanton. Meaning the 'pirate system' that Pyro is supposed to be actually is full of pirates. On the Stanton side, it encourages pirates to disable comm arrays and clear crimestats (both being appropriate and fun pirate gameplay). Piracy is still very viable whithin Stanton, it just requires more planning and coordination than Pyro. As it should, Pyro being lawless and Stanton being high security. Add in the unstable jump points that I'm sure wont be too far behind the stable ones and then we also have a way to unlawfully travel between Pyro and Stanton. Honestly as someone who plays on both side of the law I'm looking forward to this.
It's not a single-player experience I'm looking for, but rather cooperative and emergent gameplay. However, I also want to engage with the game on my terms, not have it forced upon me by other players. Personally, I find the latter stressful and my playtime is limited, so I'm looking to enjoy what little time I do have with it, and avoid the frustrations of pvp. I'm a carebear that needs to git gud, and I'm okay with that. I just hope we can get an experience that would cater to that need, as well.
This is what I mean when I say I want effective police in systems like Stanton. Pyro and others can stay a place you have to watch your back, but pirates in Stanton shouldn't be able to suicide kill me at a station, then just have their friends loot my corpse.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to limit it, sure it's an inconvenience to have to clear their crime stats before they can transit but they have a method to do that in Stanton and probably will in Pyro. Besides they can still try to pirate those going through(imagine it's going to be difficult but doable) and it makes more sense then just giving them access while they have a crimes stat which totally breaks lore and opens the experience to griefing what should be a relatively safe zone.
Pve or the lack of pvp does not equal a single player experience. It's just players getting to play the game the way they want. I haver never went pvp on anyone in this game and have enjoyed a lot of pve gameplay with others since backing over 10 years ago. Need to check that date again. Anyway, my point is everyone needs to be able to "play how you want" as was advertised so many years ago. Not just the pvp crowd. They are already attacking everywhere they can reach. I don't see a problem with limiting some access or holding them accountable for their unlawful activities.
^^^this right here, it's what I have been saying all along, most players want to have emergent player gameplay, but, more along the lines of trading and buying and selling, not being ganked constantly by Pvpers
@@MauriceTheSpaceCowboy it’s almost like there’s a game that came along and perfected all these game mechanics a decade before Star Citizen came along. Oh, high Eve Online, thanks for all the lessons learned
@@Ferrous_Bueller I played eve for a long time. My main is a minmatar, lots of maxed out stats. Runs ships from an orca to a hulk, marauder to t2 and t3 ships. Been a while but yes. Lots of lessons from there.
I mean, you mentioned transient, non monitored jump points earlier and then never came back around to it. But wouldn't that be the smugglers run? Wouldn't that be the mode of transportation for those with crime stat? Maybe I'm missing something but it just seems like a no brainer to me. Speaking of smugglers, I'd love to see that gameplay loop get fleshed out. Not just specific terminals to sell to but ways to outfit your ship to go stealth or hide cargo from space station scans and security so you can ACTUALLY smuggle illegal or controlled goods in restricted areas. Elite Dangerous has that loop (a bit lack luster but it's there) and id love to see star citizens take on that potential career path...who doesn't want to larp as Han solo at least for a day lol
The issue is that those transient points won't be available at first, which does pose a big limitation on players with a CS. They either have to stay in stanton, or take the steps to clear their CS before entering pyro... not that clearing your CS is all that difficult. Personally, I see no issue with it. This will be the first time there are actual ramifications for playing a criminal.
I think being a smuggler is going to be a part of the data running loop, and that's not a violent criminal, they will, or should have lower CS unless of course it's really valuable data
@@XxTavoRxX I feel like for that game loop, having no CS is the test of skill. If you can get in, get the data and get out without a CS, you did well. Honestly, I feel like most criminal gameplay is that way. You don't WANT a crimestat, you want to get away with it, and the least crimstat you can pull off while still completing the objective, the better... but CIG would need to build things in a way that supports that, so it's a guessing game if that's how it will ultimately be.
You kinda lost me when you were describing the consequences of breaking the rules as a bad thing. You do bad things = you become a criminal = you can't do things normal people can do.
Right? Like why on earth would a government in control of one of the strategically vital jump points ever consider allowing wanted criminals to pass through them?
I feel like their approach is the right one. Griefing and pirating simply gets out of hand at the moment. Its not fun anymore, and even pirating should be in a way "fun" for the victim. But if you let everything allowed, people will constantly pirate and grief everything and everybody to an extent that people dont want to play anymore. Why WOULD they be able to cross the gate ? If i`m a criminal and go to the airport i also get arrested, so what. So no, they shouldnt be able to traverse the gate with a CrimeStat. And at the moment criminals face not enough penalties, its way to easy to get along with CrimeStats. Its no problem to just harrass and kill people all the time.
It's not like there aren't ways to deal with having a cs, and since it's highly likely that a large portion of these players will have a cs as a result of griefing other players (rather than actual piracy) I say let them deal with it. There needs to be SOME kind of consequences for being a criminal in the game.
@@FlesHBoX sure, but in the systems that the criminals can’t access have terrible profit margins available to them. All the Carebears can process moon dust for 5.99 an hour
So you're complaining that someone with a "shoot-on sight" arrest warrant can't cross the boarder into the UEE through a military/LEO controlled port of entry? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me,
Can always do pirate things to get through (stowaway, hijack) or just do the easier thing and clear your crimestat. Spend a few minutes in Klescher or do a hack job at SPK. Having a crimestat hasn't slowed a pirate up until now why should this be any different?
I have two comments. Firstly, high crime stat locking you out of UEE-guarded jump points makes perfect sense from a role play and game play perspective. Secondly, people don't say that piracy is easy and risk free. It's ganking which is easy and risk free. Actual pirates are few and far between in star citizen. 12 year old morons who just want to ram your ship and ruin your day are a bit more common.
Risk/Reward. Don’t do crime kids. Actually I think they should reintroduce the crime stat reduction terminals since there’s now a whole system for PVP. They may open them up for criminals when things mature.
@@saosaoldian6742 absolutely, but the high profit game mechanics should also only be available in the systems that criminals can access. The more freedom of movement the criminals have, the more profit is available. Risk/Reward.
I do think pirates should be able to TRY entering a jump game. I also think, as they try with a crime stat of 3+ they get shot full of holes instead of just bounced away. I'd imagine the drake data runner would have the best ratio of speed armor and computing power to align with a jump point before getting shot would disable the ship. In short, I should be POSSIBLE, but definitely not reliable.
Weird complaint honestly, there's a whole system out there for doing crime, you wont even get in trouble as long as you dont commit those crimes at the gate station.
Good video, though I disagree with one of your central premises, i.e. crime stat is not a "hard lock". If criminal players want to "sneak" through the jump gate, then they should clear their crime stat to appear as a lawful player. I feel as though describing having a crime stat as being "hard locked" from half the game is a misrepresentation that could be potentially harmful to low-information SC players.
I think another way to address the crime stat issue is to make it so that transient jump points are far more likely to appear in the vicinity of stable jump points. This way players with crime stats simply need to spend some time and effort on locating the ever-shifting alternative route without being discovered by local security or bounty hunters. This would also keep lawful players separate and safer from the threat of unlawful players. Imagine being a bounty hunter just patrolling the outskirts around a major JP looking for sneaking pirates. And yes, I miss the rings. At least for stable jump points. I've proposed this idea in a few different places, but I'll mention it here too: I personally like the idea that the rings are what make the JPs stable. This lore would open up the possibility for endgame loops where large orgs can spend massive amounts of resources to build, install, and maintain their own rings to stabilize TJPs. I imagine this endeavor to be quite difficult to actually turn a profit from. Sure you can toll players who'd like to use your JP, but charge too much and they'll just go to a UEE controlled route. You could also use the JP to open up new shortcuts reserved for your orgs trade division, but that alone likely wouldn't increase your profits enough to cover for upkeep costs. Therefore, the primary motivation for controlling a jump point would be for a tactical advantage in org disputes. This would turn player-crafted rings into high value command posts that would need to be guarded or risk having the competition claim or destroy your ring. I could also see a very very distant future where CIG starts adding procedurally generated systems without telling anyone, then leaving it to explorers to discover TJPs to them. Then an exploration org could install a ring and control the sole entry point for an entire system filled with untapped resources. They'd still have to protect their ring from other orgs and there's no guarantee that other TJPs won't pop up leading to the same new star system. Just some of my farfetched ideas haha
I'm not against restrictions for pirates and criminals at major jump points WHEN there will be alternative routes (transient JPs). That's the whole point of those. They even mentioned that transient JPs are exactly how criminals (Xenothreat) gets from Pyro to Stanton. I know they wont be available right away.
FYI @5:16 Isn't quite correct. In the latest SCL the developers stated that jump points exist in paired tunnels, essentially one in each direction which can be traveled simultaneously.
I'm out of date with jump points but I believe that the unstable/temporary jump points where to give a reason for explorers to do their job, they find a point, they sell the coordinates for profit or maybe use it for a secret faster trade route. Having these temporary jump points be the only way pirates can get around gives even more incentive for exploration. Pirates also need to plan their getaway routes ahead of time based on what jump points they have available to them.
Restricting pirate acces to jump points makes sense given that you want piracy to be difficult rather than just camping a jump point for easy money. That said, it needs to be implemented when pirates actually have a way to jump to other systems outside of the main lanes.
sounds to me like a really good set of parameters. the pirates can do all the pirating they want to in Pyro. but they better behave themselves in Stanton and near the pyro side of the jump point. once they are away from the jump point, they won't get crime stats. So it's not like criminals can't use the jump points. they just have to limit their criminality to the lawless areas.
It would be cool if people with crime stats had to bribe or get an infiltrator inside ICT to get approval to jump, or either alternatively or additionally, if the approvals were for just a certain number of ships to jump at once, so that criminals could try to force their way into line or bribe/lure other players out of line to take the slots of law abiding citizens.
When this goes live, I imagine we'll see what the majority of the player base is. I'm predicting each shard will eventually (after everyone spends a few weeks checking out the new system) have about 10-15 criminals looking for people to gank in Pyro, and 85-90 players enjoying their game loops in Stanton.
Yep, i don't think the pirates will have anyone to pirate in Pyro and will just stay in Stanton, as the people running cargo aren't gonna wanna go to the PVP heavy place to run cargo if it's just as profitable to stay in Stanton That is, unless there are gonna be some stupid profitable trade routes in Pyro for cargo guys to run to entice them to actually go there. Or maybe make drugs stupid cheap in Pyro since there wouldn't be any laws, enticing people to run drugs from Pyro to Stanton
It will need to be quite a bit more profitable if you have to hire a large contingent of security to complete the haul, no one is going to be happy flying high risk escort for nothing
@@XxTavoRxX or, you could do this old fashioned thing called make friends, join a corp/clan/etc, and….wait for it….some good old fashioned teamwork 😂. Nothing wrong with that thug solo life, except all the thug solos that constantly complain about “what it takes to survive in space”.
@@Ferrous_Bueller I'm already in a large org, how does that in any way change what I said, or do you just not pay your friends when get them to fly with you?
Maybe once the transient jump points appear, since they are not regulated, are going to be the points for pirates. Imagine planning an entry point to Stanton, having just some limited time to pirate, and then running to the transient jump point before it closes. I can already see the videos omg
It's a first implementation which means there will be changes and alterations in the future. Any inconveniences for crim types are most likely temporary or CIG might have a neat new Transponder Spoof tech (which might add to realism) that would allow unsavory types to traverse jump points.
It reminds me of hyperspace travel from David Webber's "Honorverse" novels, where major transit points have defenses and infrastructure, and it also reminds me of Freelancer where there were established jump gates and unregulated jump points for pirates. The unregulated ones were typically in a dangerous area and heavily patrolled and used by NPC factions, often piratical or anti-establishment ones. I like where they're going with it, but I'd like it if it were a mix of Freelancer and their current plans. There should be permanent jumps in dangerous areas as well as randomly forming transient jumps. This gives pirates and lawless players a risky option, while also allowing exploration.
I feel is a good decision, Stanton has laws, if you break them you can't do some stuff, for example you cant land at a normal station with crimestat, so it seems pretty ok to me that the gate blocks you from entering. It's like IRL, If you are a criminal, don't expect to go to an airport and get a ticket. Being a criminal has it's consequences. BUT, I'd be ok if they could only jump from transient jump points, that would make sharing those locations actually useful.
I agree that eventually they will need to make it as you say morph, but I beleive current tech limitations are what force the devs to choose between "lawful only safe zone" or "campers paradise". Or perhaps they HAVE to use atc currently. Either way I think most of use, including legitimate pirates, would rather the current system than a campers paradise.
Wholeheartedly agree with your points on criminals being stuck in one system or another. If anything, they should allow criminals some form of going between the systems while they work on the transient gates. My hope is that the transient gates will work as a sort of "back door" between systems, which will then give pirates a way to go between them, which would make the control on stable gates more reasonable.
Nope. I 100% disagree with you on the whole "let them crash through and possibly get lucky" stance. Isn't that literally what the other transient jump points are for??? Why would the UEE have a whole border patrol setup on both sides of the JP? I say there's a lawful way in, and the other way. Removing this feature is just begging with your pants down to get screwed. You're gonna want that detail there, lol. I assure you.
I completely agree, they should make it that pirates can at the last seconds throw themselvs into the jump point with entering group. Gettin fired at, bounty rising every second, but they should be able to do it. I am not a pirate but unlike many commenters I think even pirate side of the game should be treated "fairly" when it comes to game mechanisms and artifical walls are not fair for anyone.
hello, the first implementation of the the jump point allow them to slowy add feature. I like more restriction (no crime stat jump) so it can be more stable and reliable. I am certaint that they will make in the "near" futur a way for them to jump.
The UEE controled station makes sense, as it is within the Jump Point's range where navy ships can respond relatively quickly. I suppose at some point the UEE may try to reclaim more of Pyro if the reason should make itself apparent, but until then, this is reasonable as a stop gap for pirates just blindly entering Stanton.
I think whether or not it locks pirates out would depend on how the game detects the crime stat. Does it only detect the pilot, the one who called, or the entire crew? If it's either of the first two, then a pirate can just ride along with a clean friend. If it's the last one, that's where the smuggling gameplay could come in. In any case, the pirate rides along, claims their ship on the other side (or has it transported on a clean ship), and they're good to go.
It makes sense to have authorities prevent criminals from crossing the borders through official passage ( however wild that idea may sound to some these days ) try to go around it and if you're lucky, you'll get in
As a Stargate lover, yes I miss the gates around the jump points, I could pretend for a moment I was in the Stargate universe. Pirates should get a one time pass to get to pyro using the jump point as a workaround until the other unstable jump points are introduced.
I'm very sad that the rings got removed from the stable jump points. It really gave it a heavy commercialized feel, and would also then make sense that the UEE could have some from of control over the jump points to restrict pirates. I do like the idea of pirates being forced to use unstable jump points to move around in general though, hopefully we get those fairly soon
How about this: if you have a crime stat higher than 3, then you would need to capture or destroy the same ship of the one you're flying. Then you should be able to steal or extract the device from the capture ship that emits the ship signature (provided it has not been destroyed). In addition, you would need to possess / steal / buy some kind of illegal hacking device that temporarily tempers with your ship's own signature so that you would be able to jump by tricking ATC. That of course would be a challenging mission to accomplish and would hopefully lead to many emergent gameplays :)
I totally agree with the restrictions, as the jump point IS UEE controlled from the beginning. BUT we need transient jump points to allow criminals to go back and forth between jump points. That’s the usual Alpha problem, that we get features one after another and sometimes it’s a bit disappointing when one is missing. E.g. in 3.24 you can’t buy drug anymore at JT or small drug locations, as they didn’t have any FE and the workaround they chose is simply to remove selling consoles.
As someone who occasionally does some space piracy, I dislike the fact that there's very little 'backdooring' in the game. I'm not saying it's not there, but being completely locked out of a city, like Hurston for example, through official channels sounds good to me; as long as there's some kind of 'backdoor' available for pirates, or people who like hauling narcotics and other illegal cargo. I think having more security around certain major points and more ways to circumvent that security as well would make for much more interesting gameplay, instead of simply visiting Kareah once and getting rid of your crime-stat as a whole.
They aren't permabanned, they just can't chase someone thru that they're actively trying to kill at the entrance. Fix your crime stat and you can travel, but this discourages pirates from entry-camping, which IMHO is much-needed.
I feel like the problem with a "lawless" system is that it will just become a "shoot on sight" kind of deal. You won't be able to land at any point and get out of your ship, because any player that approaches will just blow you up, with no repercussions. It's actually safer for them to kill you than allow you to live. While it does create some tension, if the servers get big enough to have 100s of players, it devolves into just a battle royal. I hope there is a mix of both risky, and less risky parts of pyro. In the future there may be dozens of systems, right now there will be only 2, and if 50% of the game is just a pvp sweatfest, it takes away from all the other cool activities a new system offers.
Surely in Pyro there will be an ability to work with certain groups that have information on these transient jump points and you will learn locations through mission givers etc.... That will be a longer term thing but that's how the patches have always worked - new features have never had full functionality at the start. The only way I could see this working at manned jump points is to have some sort of mission where an agent of the criminal gang infiltrates the station and takes command of the jump point access. This would then trigger a mission for lawful citizens to remove them, to prevent the obvious 'griefing' that would occur.
As to pirates not going through major wormholes, they will have transit wormholes but they can also have thier friends or pay somebody to transport them and their ship through. If their ship is too large than they will have to ditch it. Pirates shouldn’t have it easy and if the selling of your merchandise is the hardest part than good
Stable and commercial Jump Points should be secure, undiscovered or non commercial should be used by anyone. The issue is we will only have one right now, but I feel CIG may add a way for you to sneak into the Jump Point.
I'd suggest the UEE zone at the Pyro side of the JP is a temporary thing (until another way is implemented to disuade certain things right near that JP), along with players that have crimestat being unable to transit. It's an early iteration. It's inconvenient, yes, but it will change. How? Not sure. They could eventually allow people to just transit, or could have piggybacking/easily spoofing ID/whatever. Then again they may just make transient JPs have a reasonable uptime.
It should still have a physical stabilization ring I think. Make it so when you don't have one.. you may have to hunt a bit for the wormhole's actual location once you get to the jump gate. That all just seemed to make sense. 10:40 Ah... no... this makes perfect sense and it doesn't limit movement.. it only means that they need to seek out someone that doesn't have a CS to fly the ship and smuggle the criminals to Pyro and back. Basically EXACTLY how it would be.
Taking away the option for criminal players to use the jump point isn't ideal, but there are ways around it for sure. Clearing a crime stat isn't that big of a deal, so just go do that, jump on through and then go back to crime time. Or have a friend without a crime stat fly your ship for you. I do like the idea of sneaking into a group at the last second, though, that sounds like a lot of fun.
I get the plan is for transient JPs to be for unlawful players, but it's kind of dumb as we might not be getting them for some time. I'd rather see a temp workaround that keeps JPs neutral zones, no combat between any parties, and make the JPs the lawful only checkpoints they're supposed to be when transient JPs are introduced.
In stead of station they could place a ai blockade with an idris or multiple that the pirates would have to kill in order to use / control the jump point on pyro side
I think you're misunderstanding the "permissions" thing for jump points. Unless you're doing crimes right outside the jump point, you won't receive any crime stat. The UEE doesn't control Pyro, therefor does not monitor it for crimes. You can do all the crimes you want in Pyro, and then wander on into Stanton like nothing happened. On the other hand, if you have a crime stat in Stanton, you just have to remove it before going to the jump point to get to Pyro
Morph, I disagree with you on one point. Pirates will be able to “do their thing” in pyro as it’s a lawless zone beyond the welcome centers. Then, provided they are not wanted within UEE space they can travel through unhindered by the Law sell their loot and head back to pyro for more cargo cracking so long as they are crimestat free in Stanton.
Bounty hunters will also be interested in finding transient jump points the pirates use. Turning the tables the hunters become the hunted. Sounds like fun!
If it's possible for a ship owner to not know a stowaway is on their ship then I think it should be possible for ATC to not know... Maybe they can link it to whether or not a person is in the owners party or not. Also arent there ships, like the star runner, that have areas on the ship that scanners cant penetrate? Seems there are options that can be utilized on further iterations. That being said I like the idea of criminals not being able to jump through the big jump points, for now, since that's the intent for those places going forward.
I can appreciate this from a pirate point of view, however it's just an unfortunate timing issue I think. I think people are used to having to up and down their crime stat, and most pirates don't get their crimestat until they're ready to die with it. I think for now they'll travel to stanton, get a crimestat until they die. Clear it when ready to go back to pyro unless they died.
I think you should be able to sneak through a controlled JP, but it should be very hard! I don't mind the fact that you will have to clean up for a transit in the initial build, but it is a little sad to see this change if it's an actual change and not just a temporary thing due to the way ATC and the new "gateways" (instanced hangars use the same tech as jump points) work.
Considering that transient jump points won't have ATC or any crime stat restriction and the fact that it makes sense for the UEE to patrol and control access to BOTH sides of the jump point, I think the current first iteration plan for the gates is just fine. After all, the transient jump points are why we have ships like the Carrack in the first place! To scan those down, map them and then sell that data to... Pirates! :) I mean, that's the reason I have a Carrack. I expect that data trade will probably be rather lucrative once transient jump points are brought into the game. There's still a lot of work to do by CIG before that happens though. I do expect there will be some adjustment in how these jump points work shortly after they finally go live though, including potentially removal of the crime stat limitation, who knows? We'll just have to wait and see what happens! 😃 Cheers!
I wonder who will have more fun in the jump tunnels Liberator crews or Kraken crews? Neither ship tows other ships but they can carry them on external landing pads.
They can create a mission at station with jump points where criminals can go defeats some guards at ATC and disable their crime stat for like 20 mins and they have to jump during that duration. Also station can put big bounty when criminals are attacking the ATC, that way people can come and defend it, same concept as SPK
The jump point restrictions won't impact piracy other than the requirement to make some effort to blend in when infiltrating lawful systems; something which makes perfect sense as a piracy gameloop. If anything, like using tractor beams to stabilise and match speeds with a precessing wreck on the drift at 1100 m/s would have been, taking a border control approach to jump points between jurisdictions will only make piracy and smuggling that much more interesting. The only people it's going to lock out are the trolls who are not in-game to play but to grief and harass other players and I think this design choice promises to be a win for actual gamers and, especially those who play as pirates, because this further fleshes out piracy gameplay. I totally agree. Make it hard. Enforce the restrictions with Advocacy and/or security forces that escalate realistically - don't just restrict access with space magic BS - be that having to make a call to ATC to access a physical phenomenon. I really like @morphologis' suggestion to leave things open to someone crashing the queues and trying to fight their way through. I'm not sure the big jump point gates are gone. I think in some of the Messer Era jump points, they would make perfect sense as an extension of the brutalist architecture used to oppress everyone in its shadow; just, not everywhere and, following the fall of the Messers, maybe more the exception than the rule. And, in the 400+ systems to follow 1.0, I think that there's a LOT of room for variation.
The way I see it, Chris is making it similar to freelancer. in that game if you had a bad crimestat there was other jump gates in the more lawless systems to get into high sec areas, they were off the beaten path and hidden in belts and nebulas.
But as a pirate you can still attack lawful players without getting a crimestat in Pyro because it's not controlled by the UEE. So you'd still be crimestat free when moving through the jump point into Stanton. It's only the other way around which is going to be a bit tricky with a crimestat. But on the other hand, you can also transfer whatever you collected in Stanton as a pirate and have a crimestat free player transport your stuff over to Pyro where you (after getting rid of your crimestat) or your friends can pick it up... I don't really see the jump point being UEE controlled any restriction to pirate gameplay... Only a bit more of a hassle....
I think they have got it right. I just wanted added gameplay so that we can smuggle criminals through jump gates e.g. in MSR Missions could be built around it etc
I dont like the idea of ATC at JP, id rather have a lot of UEE npcs patrolling JP, which will make it harder for criminals to access it, but not completely prevent from using it
gates shouldn't be artificially unusable. that goes against the ethos of star citizen-- if you can see a spot in the sky, you can fly to it. it's not fake. uee systems should have gates effectively be police stations. so it should be hard for any crimes or adversarial military actions to be had at those critical locations. completely agree.
I have zero sympathy for pirates. When the ultimate game launches and the "Death of a Spaceman" happens, and those pirates start having their many-hundreds of dollar ships poof into nothingness b/c they no longer have a playable character, I'll laugh my ass off.
I am a base tier backer with a bad computer. I have been left out of a vast majority of gameplay for years. It would take several days and a lucky streak to even rent a larger ship to try something like mining or cargo, or salvage, or medical, or ground vehicle etc. I have to ask other players to get a chance to try all of that. And yes, PvP also isn't really possible with the performance and graphical glitches I am experiencing.
Sure bro but that’s like complaining that wing commander did not run on anything less than a 486dx2 back in the days. A slow PC sucks (got one myself), but that cannot be the issue of CIG. They never hid the fact they will go high end and I have to say for the technical marvel, scope and beauty of SC, it already runs pretty well on low spec PCs (for an alpha version). Just look how bad cities skylines 2 runs on decent PCs.
With CIG unable to build a stable server system now with a 100 player cap, I honestly don't have faith that they are capable of a stable server meshing expanded player count as the shards are going to simply cascade fail on top of each other, one causing the next and then the next to crash and error out. Meaning there is not going to be a player pop large enough to make transient jump points of any profit or interest. That a player finds one active at the same time a smuggler wants or needs on is not high likelihood unless CIG makes them so common as to be no need to pay for its location in the first place.
I think you should be able to sneak by, in one way or another. Does something active the jump point? I feel like if you can survive getting up to it, and engaging your quantum drive or whatever, you should be able to use it. Maybe there is some sort of destabilizer the UEE normally has on, but that could be something you need to deactivate to use it then.
Hmm...not sure how I feel about that. Not that I am a criminal, or play as one, but I can see a fleet of criminals showing up and battling a fleet of UEE to get through the jump point. Seems interesting. Do it for a patch and see how it plays out.
I'm ok with it for initial testing, but pirates should be able to speed through at the risk of being shot. Or, you know, pay a guy with no crime stat to make the contact and get you through.
Yeah try to speed through the US border checkpoint from Mexico. You really think you would come far? How do you speed through a traffic jam? Unstable temporary jump points are planned for a good reason. Speeding through a stable controlled jump point should only be possible if an armada of ships take over the station and controls ATC themselves.
@@Grimshak81 traffic jams happen because people are limited to mostly 2D area. It's much harder to blockade something in 3D. Have all those border guards try to stop an airplane from getting through and you start to see how much more difficult it can be, sauerkraut with something quick.
I think they Need to add things like a Universal code like "donkey balls" to give to ATC Jump nodes and should be found on UAE ships. Even the rebels where allowed past Endor Moons Shields. Also This is where explorers could come in as a roll they find transient jump point locations. any one of these a pirate or salvager can obtain these and move undetected.
I like the change of the jump points not having a big ring anymore... that felt a little too much like an Ori Supergate or a Babylon 5 Jump Gate... this new style feels a bit more natural, like the Bajoran wormhole from DS9. It feels so weird to say that as I like Stargate and B5 more than DS9 lol.
![An Architect Reviews: The Starfarer [Star Citizen]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/h2vbubcN8d0/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm fine with criminals being banned from stable jump points. It makes sense, and it provides motives for criminal types to look for alternatives. Part of being a criminal is being creative after all. I suspect as things go along this will be the function of unstable wormhole. As it should be criminality is risky.
I agree and IMO there will be semi stable jump points, used as back doors into all systems .
Criminals need to hire people with clean ships with clean captains to smuggle them, that's been the case for basically all of human history. Currently the game's mechanics have this omnipotent enforcement regime because it's a game and the game simply knows where everything is at all times anyway unlike the real world.
Transit denial should be based only on the reputation/crimestat of players occupying a seat of the craft. It'll be a far better gameplay loop where pirates seeking to move around need to actually be smuggled, and this actually gives you a reason to have something like a pocket carrier to transport a bunch of fighters for a raid. It's a lot of hassle, so the juice better be worth the squeeze, way too much effort to pad-crash someone in an aurora.
Almost everyone agrees with this- the issue is those alternatives don't yet exist. That said even when alternative do exist, I agree with morph and I do think they should be able to attempt to smash their way through the gate under heavy fire from the uee. The more important the gate to the uee the more heavily defended it is and thus some gates it would still be near impossible to run the blockade. this just creates a fun gameplay element and we could even see criminally controlled gates where you either have an option to pay the criminals to use the gate or attempt to smash your way through.
@@NegZer0 I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of it still being an unfinished game.
@@Proton_Decay This might be a good work around.
No the UUE having control of its border to try and prevent bad actors like xeno threat from coming into their space with out challenge makes perfect sense. Also being a pirate in Stanton should be very hard as it’s UUE monitored space and should have consequences like this.
I think the UEE point just beyond the jump exit is a smart move. Some might find it sad that it's not immediately on-guard, but I reckon it's best for the fluidity of gameplay. As for the pirates not able to use the UEE points, it makes sense and creates the purpose for the unstable wormholes that you can find yourself. Either be a pirate and find those points, or stick to petty crime and don't get a bigger crime stat. This would also finally give piracy some actual risk instead of being a banter-with-friends time sink. (no, you can't convince me there's any risk in piracy currently, especially not when you have a squad like a certain PvPer on this platform)
I think that ATC refusing to let pirates through the stable/persistent gates on both ends of the JP makes sense, forcing pirates who are in Stanton and Pyro to be required to look for the temporary JPs in each system near the stable JP to travel between the systems. It's not limiting pirate players from going to Pyro, but giving pirates consequences for their actions choosing to be pirates. Otherwise, pirates will still be able to remove their crimestat other ways to have a 2 or lower and be able to use the main JP.
Let’s be real, Eve Online already figured this all out, all they have to do is copy all the mechanics and add their own minor flavor to it
ya but the temp jump points will not be in the 4.0 update
Totally agree. And as a part time pirate, I never get a CS, or if I do I clear it, there are many ways, which usually need multiplayer or org mates. But there’s always a way
@@thel1tch857 That's fine, Pirates will then have to hire smugglers, morally grey people who transport loot for a price who have a clean rep. This ensures player interaction. And if a pirate wants to go to Pyro right now, they can just hop onto a ship that's going to Pyro and be smuggled there.
agreed, though I think it's a bit harsh blocking them whilst the alternative jump points are not implemented, they should let them through for now, maybe at a higher cost or something? but till the alternatives are set up, I don't think it's fair to outright block them, when they "normally" would have this alternative jump point to traverse through
My position on this is that pirates choose to be pirates. They reap the benefits and deal with the risks of that playstyle. I've considered your argument Morph but I just can't reconcile criminals enjoying the same privileges as lawful citizens; that just doesn't seem logical to me. I'm therefore in accordance with CI's stance. Thanks for the video.
Pirates facing consequences for their crimes seem pretty sensible to me
Crime needs high risk high reward
And so far, it's an absolute joke of a punishment. I swear if I didn't hate the idea of screwing up someone's session, I'd be one lol... It's the easiest game loop in Stanton. Just bring friends and you'll make cash hand over fist with little to no consequences.
@@durtyred86that‘s simply not true. The consequences are next to none, I give you that. But if you’re in it for profit, piracy is the wrong profession for you. Currently, since there are so few players in a server, it is incredibly hard to find a target. Sometimes you wait for hours and nothing happens. If you do, however find a target, you can make a nice profit, IF you are pirating solo. Splitting the already very rare profits under a group of five or more makes them so insignificant that it easily comes to show that most pirates are doing it not for the money, but for emergent player driven gameplay
Crime should be easy, tho. Who wants to work harder for better rewards? That goes against the very concept of being a pirate...
@@allthatishere name one time that piracy in any medium was easy?
Not enough restrictions for pirates. This is a good move
Yes, there need to be more protection around protected outposts for example , like UEE sec coming in when you are attacked, NPCs, turrets, as opposed to this fictional “armistice” zone that cannot be explained
It is not that hard. You clear your crime stat to leave Stanton. When you are in Pyro, you're only limited to not doing illegal activities close to the gate. You have a HUGE rest of the system to pirate in and still able to travel back and forth because you will not receive a crime stat anywhere else in Pyro. No gate camping. It would be bad gameplay that doesn't take skill when there is only one gate to use atm.
(not to mention we have the unstable ones that anyone can travel through once found)
Came here to say this.
Permanent jump points are essentially manned border checkpoints. I feel like if pirates want to smuggle goods or themselves through those, they will have to hire someone to do that for them. This is why I think Crimestat should be tied to ship ownership - if you smuggle yourself through on someone's ship or stow away, only a deep scan should be able to detect you, and that should also depend on your EM signature. I think currently if you have a Crimestat and jump on someone's ship who doesn't, they'll get shot at by the authorities. That is (I hope) a bug and not an intended feature. Being a criminal in the game should require thinking and acting like a criminal would, not being let through everywhere because it's a legitimate playstyle. That's metagaming.
If it's possible for a ship owner to not know a stowaway is on their ship then I think it should be possible for ATC to not know... Maybe they can link it to whether or not a person is in the owners party or not.
i think that having the starlifter and transporting criminals (and//or their ship) would be incredible because it allows more money options and depth into criminal systems
I think that pirates being unable to use a UEE jump point when they have a crimestat makes perfect sense. It encourages pirate players to pirate in Pyro, as provided they dont attack anything UEE they wont get a crimestat and can still travel freely back to Stanton. Meaning the 'pirate system' that Pyro is supposed to be actually is full of pirates. On the Stanton side, it encourages pirates to disable comm arrays and clear crimestats (both being appropriate and fun pirate gameplay). Piracy is still very viable whithin Stanton, it just requires more planning and coordination than Pyro. As it should, Pyro being lawless and Stanton being high security. Add in the unstable jump points that I'm sure wont be too far behind the stable ones and then we also have a way to unlawfully travel between Pyro and Stanton. Honestly as someone who plays on both side of the law I'm looking forward to this.
It's not a single-player experience I'm looking for, but rather cooperative and emergent gameplay. However, I also want to engage with the game on my terms, not have it forced upon me by other players. Personally, I find the latter stressful and my playtime is limited, so I'm looking to enjoy what little time I do have with it, and avoid the frustrations of pvp. I'm a carebear that needs to git gud, and I'm okay with that. I just hope we can get an experience that would cater to that need, as well.
This is what I mean when I say I want effective police in systems like Stanton. Pyro and others can stay a place you have to watch your back, but pirates in Stanton shouldn't be able to suicide kill me at a station, then just have their friends loot my corpse.
If they pirate, they also tend to pvp and usually grief, so its good they lock out criminals.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to limit it, sure it's an inconvenience to have to clear their crime stats before they can transit but they have a method to do that in Stanton and probably will in Pyro. Besides they can still try to pirate those going through(imagine it's going to be difficult but doable) and it makes more sense then just giving them access while they have a crimes stat which totally breaks lore and opens the experience to griefing what should be a relatively safe zone.
Pve or the lack of pvp does not equal a single player experience. It's just players getting to play the game the way they want. I haver never went pvp on anyone in this game and have enjoyed a lot of pve gameplay with others since backing over 10 years ago. Need to check that date again. Anyway, my point is everyone needs to be able to "play how you want" as was advertised so many years ago. Not just the pvp crowd. They are already attacking everywhere they can reach. I don't see a problem with limiting some access or holding them accountable for their unlawful activities.
^^^this right here, it's what I have been saying all along, most players want to have emergent player gameplay, but, more along the lines of trading and buying and selling, not being ganked constantly by Pvpers
@@MauriceTheSpaceCowboy it’s almost like there’s a game that came along and perfected all these game mechanics a decade before Star Citizen came along. Oh, high Eve Online, thanks for all the lessons learned
@@Ferrous_Bueller I played eve for a long time. My main is a minmatar, lots of maxed out stats. Runs ships from an orca to a hulk, marauder to t2 and t3 ships. Been a while but yes. Lots of lessons from there.
I mean, you mentioned transient, non monitored jump points earlier and then never came back around to it. But wouldn't that be the smugglers run? Wouldn't that be the mode of transportation for those with crime stat? Maybe I'm missing something but it just seems like a no brainer to me. Speaking of smugglers, I'd love to see that gameplay loop get fleshed out. Not just specific terminals to sell to but ways to outfit your ship to go stealth or hide cargo from space station scans and security so you can ACTUALLY smuggle illegal or controlled goods in restricted areas. Elite Dangerous has that loop (a bit lack luster but it's there) and id love to see star citizens take on that potential career path...who doesn't want to larp as Han solo at least for a day lol
The issue is that those transient points won't be available at first, which does pose a big limitation on players with a CS. They either have to stay in stanton, or take the steps to clear their CS before entering pyro... not that clearing your CS is all that difficult.
Personally, I see no issue with it. This will be the first time there are actual ramifications for playing a criminal.
I think being a smuggler is going to be a part of the data running loop, and that's not a violent criminal, they will, or should have lower CS unless of course it's really valuable data
@@XxTavoRxX I feel like for that game loop, having no CS is the test of skill. If you can get in, get the data and get out without a CS, you did well.
Honestly, I feel like most criminal gameplay is that way. You don't WANT a crimestat, you want to get away with it, and the least crimstat you can pull off while still completing the objective, the better... but CIG would need to build things in a way that supports that, so it's a guessing game if that's how it will ultimately be.
You kinda lost me when you were describing the consequences of breaking the rules as a bad thing.
You do bad things = you become a criminal = you can't do things normal people can do.
Right? Like why on earth would a government in control of one of the strategically vital jump points ever consider allowing wanted criminals to pass through them?
I feel like their approach is the right one.
Griefing and pirating simply gets out of hand at the moment.
Its not fun anymore, and even pirating should be in a way "fun" for the victim.
But if you let everything allowed, people will constantly pirate and grief everything and everybody to an extent that people dont want to play anymore.
Why WOULD they be able to cross the gate ?
If i`m a criminal and go to the airport i also get arrested, so what.
So no, they shouldnt be able to traverse the gate with a CrimeStat.
And at the moment criminals face not enough penalties, its way to easy to get along with CrimeStats.
Its no problem to just harrass and kill people all the time.
It's not like there aren't ways to deal with having a cs, and since it's highly likely that a large portion of these players will have a cs as a result of griefing other players (rather than actual piracy) I say let them deal with it. There needs to be SOME kind of consequences for being a criminal in the game.
@@FlesHBoX sure, but in the systems that the criminals can’t access have terrible profit margins available to them. All the Carebears can process moon dust for 5.99 an hour
So you're complaining that someone with a "shoot-on sight" arrest warrant can't cross the boarder into the UEE through a military/LEO controlled port of entry? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me,
Can always do pirate things to get through (stowaway, hijack) or just do the easier thing and clear your crimestat. Spend a few minutes in Klescher or do a hack job at SPK. Having a crimestat hasn't slowed a pirate up until now why should this be any different?
Yeah I was gonna say you could just stow away on a shuttle docked and wait for it to go through the point
I have two comments. Firstly, high crime stat locking you out of UEE-guarded jump points makes perfect sense from a role play and game play perspective.
Secondly, people don't say that piracy is easy and risk free. It's ganking which is easy and risk free. Actual pirates are few and far between in star citizen. 12 year old morons who just want to ram your ship and ruin your day are a bit more common.
Risk/Reward. Don’t do crime kids. Actually I think they should reintroduce the crime stat reduction terminals since there’s now a whole system for PVP. They may open them up for criminals when things mature.
It exists just in one place . You can still clear you crime stat it’s just risky .
@@saosaoldian6742 absolutely, but the high profit game mechanics should also only be available in the systems that criminals can access. The more freedom of movement the criminals have, the more profit is available. Risk/Reward.
I do think pirates should be able to TRY entering a jump game. I also think, as they try with a crime stat of 3+ they get shot full of holes instead of just bounced away. I'd imagine the drake data runner would have the best ratio of speed armor and computing power to align with a jump point before getting shot would disable the ship. In short, I should be POSSIBLE, but definitely not reliable.
Weird complaint honestly, there's a whole system out there for doing crime, you wont even get in trouble as long as you dont commit those crimes at the gate station.
Yay! CIG finally said they will deliver jump points! That's very encouraging, as they have NEVER EVER broken such an announcement!
Good video, though I disagree with one of your central premises, i.e. crime stat is not a "hard lock". If criminal players want to "sneak" through the jump gate, then they should clear their crime stat to appear as a lawful player. I feel as though describing having a crime stat as being "hard locked" from half the game is a misrepresentation that could be potentially harmful to low-information SC players.
I think another way to address the crime stat issue is to make it so that transient jump points are far more likely to appear in the vicinity of stable jump points. This way players with crime stats simply need to spend some time and effort on locating the ever-shifting alternative route without being discovered by local security or bounty hunters. This would also keep lawful players separate and safer from the threat of unlawful players.
Imagine being a bounty hunter just patrolling the outskirts around a major JP looking for sneaking pirates.
And yes, I miss the rings. At least for stable jump points.
I've proposed this idea in a few different places, but I'll mention it here too: I personally like the idea that the rings are what make the JPs stable. This lore would open up the possibility for endgame loops where large orgs can spend massive amounts of resources to build, install, and maintain their own rings to stabilize TJPs. I imagine this endeavor to be quite difficult to actually turn a profit from. Sure you can toll players who'd like to use your JP, but charge too much and they'll just go to a UEE controlled route. You could also use the JP to open up new shortcuts reserved for your orgs trade division, but that alone likely wouldn't increase your profits enough to cover for upkeep costs.
Therefore, the primary motivation for controlling a jump point would be for a tactical advantage in org disputes. This would turn player-crafted rings into high value command posts that would need to be guarded or risk having the competition claim or destroy your ring.
I could also see a very very distant future where CIG starts adding procedurally generated systems without telling anyone, then leaving it to explorers to discover TJPs to them. Then an exploration org could install a ring and control the sole entry point for an entire system filled with untapped resources. They'd still have to protect their ring from other orgs and there's no guarantee that other TJPs won't pop up leading to the same new star system.
Just some of my farfetched ideas haha
I'm not against restrictions for pirates and criminals at major jump points WHEN there will be alternative routes (transient JPs). That's the whole point of those. They even mentioned that transient JPs are exactly how criminals (Xenothreat) gets from Pyro to Stanton. I know they wont be available right away.
FYI @5:16 Isn't quite correct. In the latest SCL the developers stated that jump points exist in paired tunnels, essentially one in each direction which can be traveled simultaneously.
I'm out of date with jump points but I believe that the unstable/temporary jump points where to give a reason for explorers to do their job, they find a point, they sell the coordinates for profit or maybe use it for a secret faster trade route. Having these temporary jump points be the only way pirates can get around gives even more incentive for exploration. Pirates also need to plan their getaway routes ahead of time based on what jump points they have available to them.
Restricting pirate acces to jump points makes sense given that you want piracy to be difficult rather than just camping a jump point for easy money. That said, it needs to be implemented when pirates actually have a way to jump to other systems outside of the main lanes.
sounds to me like a really good set of parameters. the pirates can do all the pirating they want to in Pyro. but they better behave themselves in Stanton and near the pyro side of the jump point. once they are away from the jump point, they won't get crime stats. So it's not like criminals can't use the jump points. they just have to limit their criminality to the lawless areas.
It would be cool if people with crime stats had to bribe or get an infiltrator inside ICT to get approval to jump, or either alternatively or additionally, if the approvals were for just a certain number of ships to jump at once, so that criminals could try to force their way into line or bribe/lure other players out of line to take the slots of law abiding citizens.
Maybe stowing away on player ships could be a workaround?
Unstable jump points exist
When this goes live, I imagine we'll see what the majority of the player base is. I'm predicting each shard will eventually (after everyone spends a few weeks checking out the new system) have about 10-15 criminals looking for people to gank in Pyro, and 85-90 players enjoying their game loops in Stanton.
Yep, i don't think the pirates will have anyone to pirate in Pyro and will just stay in Stanton, as the people running cargo aren't gonna wanna go to the PVP heavy place to run cargo if it's just as profitable to stay in Stanton
That is, unless there are gonna be some stupid profitable trade routes in Pyro for cargo guys to run to entice them to actually go there. Or maybe make drugs stupid cheap in Pyro since there wouldn't be any laws, enticing people to run drugs from Pyro to Stanton
My guess is that hauling goods from Stanton to pyro will be highly profitable due to the increased risk
It will need to be quite a bit more profitable if you have to hire a large contingent of security to complete the haul, no one is going to be happy flying high risk escort for nothing
@@XxTavoRxX or, you could do this old fashioned thing called make friends, join a corp/clan/etc, and….wait for it….some good old fashioned teamwork 😂. Nothing wrong with that thug solo life, except all the thug solos that constantly complain about “what it takes to survive in space”.
@@Ferrous_Bueller I'm already in a large org, how does that in any way change what I said, or do you just not pay your friends when get them to fly with you?
Maybe once the transient jump points appear, since they are not regulated, are going to be the points for pirates.
Imagine planning an entry point to Stanton, having just some limited time to pirate, and then running to the transient jump point before it closes. I can already see the videos omg
It's a first implementation which means there will be changes and alterations in the future. Any inconveniences for crim types are most likely temporary or CIG might have a neat new Transponder Spoof tech (which might add to realism) that would allow unsavory types to traverse jump points.
UEE control over the static jump points makes the transient jump points extremely valuable and well worth the effort to locate and explore.
It reminds me of hyperspace travel from David Webber's "Honorverse" novels, where major transit points have defenses and infrastructure, and it also reminds me of Freelancer where there were established jump gates and unregulated jump points for pirates. The unregulated ones were typically in a dangerous area and heavily patrolled and used by NPC factions, often piratical or anti-establishment ones. I like where they're going with it, but I'd like it if it were a mix of Freelancer and their current plans. There should be permanent jumps in dangerous areas as well as randomly forming transient jumps. This gives pirates and lawless players a risky option, while also allowing exploration.
most important thing: good to hear Morph's point of view, I'm not sure what to thing, need to be able to jump to pyro and see it myself.
I feel is a good decision, Stanton has laws, if you break them you can't do some stuff, for example you cant land at a normal station with crimestat, so it seems pretty ok to me that the gate blocks you from entering. It's like IRL, If you are a criminal, don't expect to go to an airport and get a ticket. Being a criminal has it's consequences. BUT, I'd be ok if they could only jump from transient jump points, that would make sharing those locations actually useful.
I agree that eventually they will need to make it as you say morph, but I beleive current tech limitations are what force the devs to choose between "lawful only safe zone" or "campers paradise". Or perhaps they HAVE to use atc currently.
Either way I think most of use, including legitimate pirates, would rather the current system than a campers paradise.
Wholeheartedly agree with your points on criminals being stuck in one system or another. If anything, they should allow criminals some form of going between the systems while they work on the transient gates. My hope is that the transient gates will work as a sort of "back door" between systems, which will then give pirates a way to go between them, which would make the control on stable gates more reasonable.
Nope. I 100% disagree with you on the whole "let them crash through and possibly get lucky" stance.
Isn't that literally what the other transient jump points are for???
Why would the UEE have a whole border patrol setup on both sides of the JP? I say there's a lawful way in, and the other way. Removing this feature is just begging with your pants down to get screwed. You're gonna want that detail there, lol. I assure you.
I completely agree, they should make it that pirates can at the last seconds throw themselvs into the jump point with entering group. Gettin fired at, bounty rising every second, but they should be able to do it. I am not a pirate but unlike many commenters I think even pirate side of the game should be treated "fairly" when it comes to game mechanisms and artifical walls are not fair for anyone.
hello, the first implementation of the the jump point allow them to slowy add feature.
I like more restriction (no crime stat jump) so it can be more stable and reliable. I am certaint that they will make in the "near" futur a way for them to jump.
The UEE controled station makes sense, as it is within the Jump Point's range where navy ships can respond relatively quickly. I suppose at some point the UEE may try to reclaim more of Pyro if the reason should make itself apparent, but until then, this is reasonable as a stop gap for pirates just blindly entering Stanton.
I think whether or not it locks pirates out would depend on how the game detects the crime stat. Does it only detect the pilot, the one who called, or the entire crew? If it's either of the first two, then a pirate can just ride along with a clean friend. If it's the last one, that's where the smuggling gameplay could come in. In any case, the pirate rides along, claims their ship on the other side (or has it transported on a clean ship), and they're good to go.
It makes sense to have authorities prevent criminals from crossing the borders through official passage ( however wild that idea may sound to some these days )
try to go around it and if you're lucky, you'll get in
As a Stargate lover, yes I miss the gates around the jump points, I could pretend for a moment I was in the Stargate universe.
Pirates should get a one time pass to get to pyro using the jump point as a workaround until the other unstable jump points are introduced.
I'm very sad that the rings got removed from the stable jump points. It really gave it a heavy commercialized feel, and would also then make sense that the UEE could have some from of control over the jump points to restrict pirates. I do like the idea of pirates being forced to use unstable jump points to move around in general though, hopefully we get those fairly soon
How about this: if you have a crime stat higher than 3, then you would need to capture or destroy the same ship of the one you're flying. Then you should be able to steal or extract the device from the capture ship that emits the ship signature (provided it has not been destroyed). In addition, you would need to possess / steal / buy some kind of illegal hacking device that temporarily tempers with your ship's own signature so that you would be able to jump by tricking ATC. That of course would be a challenging mission to accomplish and would hopefully lead to many emergent gameplays :)
I totally agree with the restrictions, as the jump point IS UEE controlled from the beginning. BUT we need transient jump points to allow criminals to go back and forth between jump points. That’s the usual Alpha problem, that we get features one after another and sometimes it’s a bit disappointing when one is missing.
E.g. in 3.24 you can’t buy drug anymore at JT or small drug locations, as they didn’t have any FE and the workaround they chose is simply to remove selling consoles.
The idea that pirates will all go play in Pyro has always been laughable
I think that transient points and potentially smuggling by incapacitation or bed logging in a parasite ship will be the intended workarounds
As someone who occasionally does some space piracy, I dislike the fact that there's very little 'backdooring' in the game.
I'm not saying it's not there, but being completely locked out of a city, like Hurston for example, through official channels sounds good to me; as long as there's some kind of 'backdoor' available for pirates, or people who like hauling narcotics and other illegal cargo.
I think having more security around certain major points and more ways to circumvent that security as well would make for much more interesting gameplay, instead of simply visiting Kareah once and getting rid of your crime-stat as a whole.
They aren't permabanned, they just can't chase someone thru that they're actively trying to kill at the entrance. Fix your crime stat and you can travel, but this discourages pirates from entry-camping, which IMHO is much-needed.
I feel like the problem with a "lawless" system is that it will just become a "shoot on sight" kind of deal. You won't be able to land at any point and get out of your ship, because any player that approaches will just blow you up, with no repercussions. It's actually safer for them to kill you than allow you to live. While it does create some tension, if the servers get big enough to have 100s of players, it devolves into just a battle royal. I hope there is a mix of both risky, and less risky parts of pyro. In the future there may be dozens of systems, right now there will be only 2, and if 50% of the game is just a pvp sweatfest, it takes away from all the other cool activities a new system offers.
Surely in Pyro there will be an ability to work with certain groups that have information on these transient jump points and you will learn locations through mission givers etc.... That will be a longer term thing but that's how the patches have always worked - new features have never had full functionality at the start. The only way I could see this working at manned jump points is to have some sort of mission where an agent of the criminal gang infiltrates the station and takes command of the jump point access. This would then trigger a mission for lawful citizens to remove them, to prevent the obvious 'griefing' that would occur.
Makes perfect sense to me. I'm critical of just about everything CIG does and this is one idea that doesn't sound terrible.
As to pirates not going through major wormholes, they will have transit wormholes but they can also have thier friends or pay somebody to transport them and their ship through. If their ship is too large than they will have to ditch it.
Pirates shouldn’t have it easy and if the selling of your merchandise is the hardest part than good
Stable and commercial Jump Points should be secure, undiscovered or non commercial should be used by anyone. The issue is we will only have one right now, but I feel CIG may add a way for you to sneak into the Jump Point.
I'd suggest the UEE zone at the Pyro side of the JP is a temporary thing (until another way is implemented to disuade certain things right near that JP), along with players that have crimestat being unable to transit.
It's an early iteration. It's inconvenient, yes, but it will change. How? Not sure. They could eventually allow people to just transit, or could have piggybacking/easily spoofing ID/whatever. Then again they may just make transient JPs have a reasonable uptime.
It should still have a physical stabilization ring I think. Make it so when you don't have one.. you may have to hunt a bit for the wormhole's actual location once you get to the jump gate.
That all just seemed to make sense.
10:40
Ah... no... this makes perfect sense and it doesn't limit movement.. it only means that they need to seek out someone that doesn't have a CS to fly the ship and smuggle the criminals to Pyro and back. Basically EXACTLY how it would be.
Interesting take. I think there will be a balance in time.
Bravo Morpho, another great video! grazie. hope to see you in Manchester and maybe take a photo.
Taking away the option for criminal players to use the jump point isn't ideal, but there are ways around it for sure. Clearing a crime stat isn't that big of a deal, so just go do that, jump on through and then go back to crime time. Or have a friend without a crime stat fly your ship for you.
I do like the idea of sneaking into a group at the last second, though, that sounds like a lot of fun.
I get the plan is for transient JPs to be for unlawful players, but it's kind of dumb as we might not be getting them for some time. I'd rather see a temp workaround that keeps JPs neutral zones, no combat between any parties, and make the JPs the lawful only checkpoints they're supposed to be when transient JPs are introduced.
In stead of station they could place a ai blockade with an idris or multiple that the pirates would have to kill in order to use / control the jump point on pyro side
I think you're misunderstanding the "permissions" thing for jump points. Unless you're doing crimes right outside the jump point, you won't receive any crime stat. The UEE doesn't control Pyro, therefor does not monitor it for crimes. You can do all the crimes you want in Pyro, and then wander on into Stanton like nothing happened. On the other hand, if you have a crime stat in Stanton, you just have to remove it before going to the jump point to get to Pyro
Morph, I disagree with you on one point. Pirates will be able to “do their thing” in pyro as it’s a lawless zone beyond the welcome centers. Then, provided they are not wanted within UEE space they can travel through unhindered by the Law sell their loot and head back to pyro for more cargo cracking so long as they are crimestat free in Stanton.
Bounty hunters will also be interested in finding transient jump points the pirates use. Turning the tables the hunters become the hunted. Sounds like fun!
New event opportunity if a pirate fleet jumps into Stanton and we have to help defend the jump point
It should be fun, but I'd not expect the Transient JPs until we have working Carracks, and other ships to scan and map them.
Pyro in a few months.... As a younger fan (18), I've genuinely been waiting on this for as long as I can remember.
If it's possible for a ship owner to not know a stowaway is on their ship then I think it should be possible for ATC to not know... Maybe they can link it to whether or not a person is in the owners party or not.
Also arent there ships, like the star runner, that have areas on the ship that scanners cant penetrate? Seems there are options that can be utilized on further iterations. That being said I like the idea of criminals not being able to jump through the big jump points, for now, since that's the intent for those places going forward.
I can appreciate this from a pirate point of view, however it's just an unfortunate timing issue I think. I think people are used to having to up and down their crime stat, and most pirates don't get their crimestat until they're ready to die with it. I think for now they'll travel to stanton, get a crimestat until they die. Clear it when ready to go back to pyro unless they died.
I think you should be able to sneak through a controlled JP, but it should be very hard! I don't mind the fact that you will have to clean up for a transit in the initial build, but it is a little sad to see this change if it's an actual change and not just a temporary thing due to the way ATC and the new "gateways" (instanced hangars use the same tech as jump points) work.
Considering that transient jump points won't have ATC or any crime stat restriction and the fact that it makes sense for the UEE to patrol and control access to BOTH sides of the jump point, I think the current first iteration plan for the gates is just fine. After all, the transient jump points are why we have ships like the Carrack in the first place! To scan those down, map them and then sell that data to... Pirates! :) I mean, that's the reason I have a Carrack. I expect that data trade will probably be rather lucrative once transient jump points are brought into the game. There's still a lot of work to do by CIG before that happens though. I do expect there will be some adjustment in how these jump points work shortly after they finally go live though, including potentially removal of the crime stat limitation, who knows? We'll just have to wait and see what happens! 😃 Cheers!
I wonder who will have more fun in the jump tunnels Liberator crews or Kraken crews? Neither ship tows other ships but they can carry them on external landing pads.
They can create a mission at station with jump points where criminals can go defeats some guards at ATC and disable their crime stat for like 20 mins and they have to jump during that duration. Also station can put big bounty when criminals are attacking the ATC, that way people can come and defend it, same concept as SPK
OR ships with hidden cargo space should let criminals through, that will be also easy to implement
or have a way to get false identities that work to temporarily allow you through, make it a gameplay element.
I'd rather the mission be to hack ATC and give yourself permission to go through rather than to remove the crime stat altogether.
The jump point restrictions won't impact piracy other than the requirement to make some effort to blend in when infiltrating lawful systems; something which makes perfect sense as a piracy gameloop. If anything, like using tractor beams to stabilise and match speeds with a precessing wreck on the drift at 1100 m/s would have been, taking a border control approach to jump points between jurisdictions will only make piracy and smuggling that much more interesting. The only people it's going to lock out are the trolls who are not in-game to play but to grief and harass other players and I think this design choice promises to be a win for actual gamers and, especially those who play as pirates, because this further fleshes out piracy gameplay.
I totally agree. Make it hard. Enforce the restrictions with Advocacy and/or security forces that escalate realistically - don't just restrict access with space magic BS - be that having to make a call to ATC to access a physical phenomenon. I really like @morphologis' suggestion to leave things open to someone crashing the queues and trying to fight their way through.
I'm not sure the big jump point gates are gone. I think in some of the Messer Era jump points, they would make perfect sense as an extension of the brutalist architecture used to oppress everyone in its shadow; just, not everywhere and, following the fall of the Messers, maybe more the exception than the rule. And, in the 400+ systems to follow 1.0, I think that there's a LOT of room for variation.
The way I see it, Chris is making it similar to freelancer.
in that game if you had a bad crimestat there was other jump gates in the more lawless systems to get into high sec areas, they were off the beaten path and hidden in belts and nebulas.
I don't know how i feel about that mini game for traveling in a jump point.
But as a pirate you can still attack lawful players without getting a crimestat in Pyro because it's not controlled by the UEE. So you'd still be crimestat free when moving through the jump point into Stanton. It's only the other way around which is going to be a bit tricky with a crimestat. But on the other hand, you can also transfer whatever you collected in Stanton as a pirate and have a crimestat free player transport your stuff over to Pyro where you (after getting rid of your crimestat) or your friends can pick it up... I don't really see the jump point being UEE controlled any restriction to pirate gameplay... Only a bit more of a hassle....
I think they have got it right. I just wanted added gameplay so that we can smuggle criminals through jump gates e.g. in MSR Missions could be built around it etc
Only the ATC controlled jump points will deny access to (I think level 3 and above) criminals. Hopefully the unstable holes will follow closely.
I dont like the idea of ATC at JP, id rather have a lot of UEE npcs patrolling JP, which will make it harder for criminals to access it, but not completely prevent from using it
gates shouldn't be artificially unusable. that goes against the ethos of star citizen-- if you can see a spot in the sky, you can fly to it. it's not fake. uee systems should have gates effectively be police stations. so it should be hard for any crimes or adversarial military actions to be had at those critical locations. completely agree.
I have zero sympathy for pirates. When the ultimate game launches and the "Death of a Spaceman" happens, and those pirates start having their many-hundreds of dollar ships poof into nothingness b/c they no longer have a playable character, I'll laugh my ass off.
Hopefully they can bring in unstable jump points asap and then add more things to jump points
I am a base tier backer with a bad computer. I have been left out of a vast majority of gameplay for years. It would take several days and a lucky streak to even rent a larger ship to try something like mining or cargo, or salvage, or medical, or ground vehicle etc.
I have to ask other players to get a chance to try all of that.
And yes, PvP also isn't really possible with the performance and graphical glitches I am experiencing.
Sure bro but that’s like complaining that wing commander did not run on anything less than a 486dx2 back in the days.
A slow PC sucks (got one myself), but that cannot be the issue of CIG. They never hid the fact they will go high end and I have to say for the technical marvel, scope and beauty of SC, it already runs pretty well on low spec PCs (for an alpha version).
Just look how bad cities skylines 2 runs on decent PCs.
With CIG unable to build a stable server system now with a 100 player cap, I honestly don't have faith that they are capable of a stable server meshing expanded player count as the shards are going to simply cascade fail on top of each other, one causing the next and then the next to crash and error out. Meaning there is not going to be a player pop large enough to make transient jump points of any profit or interest. That a player finds one active at the same time a smuggler wants or needs on is not high likelihood unless CIG makes them so common as to be no need to pay for its location in the first place.
I think you should be able to sneak by, in one way or another. Does something active the jump point? I feel like if you can survive getting up to it, and engaging your quantum drive or whatever, you should be able to use it. Maybe there is some sort of destabilizer the UEE normally has on, but that could be something you need to deactivate to use it then.
Hmm...not sure how I feel about that. Not that I am a criminal, or play as one, but I can see a fleet of criminals showing up and battling a fleet of UEE to get through the jump point. Seems interesting. Do it for a patch and see how it plays out.
I'm ok with it for initial testing, but pirates should be able to speed through at the risk of being shot.
Or, you know, pay a guy with no crime stat to make the contact and get you through.
Yeah try to speed through the US border checkpoint from Mexico.
You really think you would come far?
How do you speed through a traffic jam?
Unstable temporary jump points are planned for a good reason.
Speeding through a stable controlled jump point should only be possible if an armada of ships take over the station and controls ATC themselves.
@@Grimshak81 traffic jams happen because people are limited to mostly 2D area. It's much harder to blockade something in 3D. Have all those border guards try to stop an airplane from getting through and you start to see how much more difficult it can be, sauerkraut with something quick.
I think they Need to add things like a Universal code like "donkey balls" to give to ATC Jump nodes and should be found on UAE ships. Even the rebels where allowed past Endor Moons Shields. Also This is where explorers could come in as a roll they find transient jump point locations. any one of these a pirate or salvager can obtain these and move undetected.
I like the change of the jump points not having a big ring anymore... that felt a little too much like an Ori Supergate or a Babylon 5 Jump Gate... this new style feels a bit more natural, like the Bajoran wormhole from DS9. It feels so weird to say that as I like Stargate and B5 more than DS9 lol.