{Split the Veil-Ep.87} Magic (and Tech) in Dragon Age
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Hello and Welcome, Welcome to Split the Veil! Listen to Jordan of Exalted March, and Caitie of Ghildirthalen explore the world of podcasting and Bioware games. In this episode: Caitie and Jordan talk about magic and technology in the Dragon Age series so far, what we'd like to see in the future, and what we think may not work so well for future games. Also: Amazon and EA.
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All Episodes of this will contain story spoilers for Bioware games and other related media.
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{Jordan}
-RUclips: Exalted March, Bioware discussions and lore
( / @exaltedmarch )
-Twitter: @TheExaltedMarch ( / theexaltedmarch )
{Caitie}
-RUclips: Ghildirthalen, Dragon Age Lore and Theories ( / ghildirthalen )
Twitter: @GhilDirthalen ( / ghildirthalen )
-Reddit: /u/Ghilannain: ( / ghilannain )
On plumbing with hot and cold water being too far, I would like to note that in Roman times wealthy romans had access to hot and cold running water, and they also had extensive sewage systems. I do not think it would be beyond the realm of possibility for the Tevinters to have a similar level of technology.
I'd even say that it would be implausible for them not to have it. Fire and ice runes should have all kinds of practical applications.
I was thinking this too. They built aqueducts to bring water to their cities, had heated floors, and had both hot and cold baths in public bathhouses. For Tevinter at the very least to not have more 'modern conveniences' (at least in the major cities) especially with magic would be more 'off' imo. Also we know they have a sewer system under Minrathous because of Tevinter Nights. I mean hopefully Tevinter doesn't use lead pipes like Rome but they certainly had the means to do some basic plumbing back then, so why not in-game?
Jordan: “Kanye isn’t chaotic evil”
Caitie (and everyone else): “mmmmmmmmmmmm” 😂😂
🤣 had me cacklin
I think that the easiest way for Dragon Age to include advanced tech is to do so through enchantment. It’s not associated with the same stigmas as full-on magic and it is already established to be a large part of the dwarven craft. Since only the most skilled dwarves and tranquils can effectively enchant items, it’ll still be a rarity amongst the common folk of Thedas. I also think it’s cool to see a technique primarily used for combat to be repurposed into an everyday item, subverting the expectation of farm tools turned weapons. A light could be a glass sphere with a lightning rune, for example, or superstructures can be made with wooden beams that bear resistance runes. It’s a bit hand-wavy to say that slapping lyrium onto anything makes it high-tech, but it’ll be cool imo. Plus, if the Qunari are developing guns in Par Vollen, I can only imagine the possibilities of having enchanted firearms. Plus, it’ll give us a reason to see Sandal become more important as the founder of runic technology, and he could use more screen time.
Yeah I could see a very early firearm that is essentially metal slugs propelled by a fire rune or something like that.
So several things are on my mind about this topic.
When it comes to technology in a fantasy setting all I could think of was world of Warcraft. Pretty much from the start they’ve had trains, airships, etc. It’s never felt immersion breaking. They’ve gotten pretty wild in the past few expansions with fantasy crystal space ships, but even then they did take the time explain how, why, and necessity of the ships and the magic technology with almost a decade of setting up.
The time magic discussion got me thinking. What if the veil isn’t simply a matter of separating spirits from mortals and holding back the gods? What if it’s reinforcement of time and space? Spirits, demons, gods and elves of old were immortal, not because of magic but because time itself was subjective. Even the Trespasser DLC, the section in the fade library, the world feels upside down, sideways, and turned around. What if it’s a lack of space and time? Perhaps that’s why the elven gods could easily make new creatures and build kingdoms. They simply needed the power to will them into being.
Furthermore, in hushed whispers quest might have been a peak into what the veil might truly be. Alexis was only able to complete his research after the breach and with inquisitor present. Even then he didn’t know what he did. He admits he did not manage to complete or control his spell and that Dorian and the inquisitor would return. Perhaps the veil weakening was what was needed to make the magic even plausible.
The last thing I thought of was a character pitch to reinforce the dangers and chaos of magic in Thedas. Since the circles have been disbanded and every mage is an apostate. That would mean several magically gifted children have gone untrained. What if in dragon age 4 you have a companion or a quest line involving a young adult that’s pretty much been self taught. Their magic spells are chaotic and don’t always land the right way. Perhaps reinforcing the dangers of magic for the audience and making more of a case Templar control and circles being reinstated. I’m full pro-mage, but if they showed mages even with the best intentions, self-control, and no desire to consort with demons can still be a danger because they lack proper training to control their power, then maybe I would agree with the Templar side more.
I will say that enchantment is technically a form of magical technology, as it binds magical power into a tool non-magic users can wield. I think magitech is a viable path of development but outside Orzammar or Tevinter I don't really see it becoming widespread due to the extreme cost associated with it - lyrium, after all, is rare and very difficult to refine and handle.
I also personally headcanon that Ferelden is the nation that would be the first to adapt technology such as gunpowder. Their culture favors down-to-earth, practical solutions to problems so they would prefer to use gunpowder over mages, especially as most of their mages were killed off by Uldred's Rebellion. Plus, it would give them a powerful new weapon against Orlais and make them into a power to be respected among Thedas.
I remember that one concept art of The iron bull were he had a cannon prosthetic arm and I really hope to see more stuff like that in da4
I mean, the byzantines had some really advanced clockwerk technology, but only the emperors, mostly because they had basically endless money to throw at artists/artificers.
Regarding light switches, in "Three Trees to Midnight," Myrion's job before the Qunari kicked the treehouse over was a "Lamplighter"--it was his job to power up the streetlamps, because he sucked as a mage and that was the low-level work you could get as a mage who wasn't particularly talented. I expect that if you have any magical power in tevinter you have indoor lighting _unless_ the material components of such a light were prohibitively expensive for the common mage. (BTW, I still think Myrion's job was supposed to be an easter egg regarding Joplin's original focus being more spycraft-oriented).
For communication, in addition to the sending stone, we also had that mage tower network in _Asunder_ was what kicked off the mage rebellion.
I don't know if Time Travel is going to go away because they put time magic in DAI _twice_ not just the Dorian quest (BTW, we don't need Alexius to have survived DAI, Dorian knows that magic and he survives!) Don't forget about that temple in the Western Approach. They wanted that in the lore, and I am nervous that it's an _Endgame_ out for the writers, where you can have everything going to s--- and then you can timey wimey your way back to reset things and get another shot at it. BUT I think the smart thing that the writers did was to make Time Travel even more significantly dangerous than other magic, if magic is playing with gasoline, time travel is playing with nukes. Dorian talks at length about how dangerous the technology is. So I don't think it's going to become commonplace.
Not wanting people to just come back from the dead is the big reason I don't want them to fanservice Felassan back.
Granted that time magic in the western approach not only failed but tore a hole in the world and froze time. The sense I got from that area was that the ancient Tevinter’s trying time travel and they failed spectacularly.
I think the distinction between the races’ use of magic vs tech is actually pretty interesting to trace. Humans and elves have such a long history with magic (with elves even coming from a magic empire, and humans using magic as everyday as lighting the Chantry’s fires) so they never felt a need to develop tech - magic already does it. Whereas dwarves don’t have access to magic (outside of Lyrium/enchanting) and qunari don’t trust it, so both had to turn to technology and science to develop their societies
About the magic mishap in the Dragon Age pen&paper RPG. This happens when you fail to achieve the target number of a spell that has a prerequisite (for example Blizzard requires Cone of Cold but Arcane Bolt has no prerequisite) AND the so called dragon die (one specific die of the three six-sided dice) shows a one. Then you role against the same target number of the spell (for example Blizzard has a target number of 17, which you have to reach with the three six-sided dice plus your Magic bonus and a possible bonus from a so called focus) but with your Willpower bonus instead of the Magic bonus. And if you also fail this roll, the number shown on your dragon die gives you the effect of the actual magical mishap:
1: The spell costs twice the normal amount of Mana.
2: The mage loses Health equal to twice the spell's Mana cost.
3: The mage can't cast any more spells for 1D6 rounds.
4: The spell works, but hits an ally instead of an enemy (or the other way round if it is a helpful spell like Heal).
5: The mage is lost in the Fade for 2D6 minutes and can't do anything else in this time.
6: The mage is lost in the Fade for 2D6 minutes and can't do anything else in this time AND has to make a Willpower test for every two minutes in the Fade with the target number 13. If one of these tests is failed, the mage becomes possessed.
So, how likely is this to happen? Here's an example for a mage casting Blizzard with a Magic value of 5, the Primal Magic Focus, and a Willpower of 4:
This Mage has a 62.5% chance of successfully casting this spell, so that leaves us with a 37.5% chance of failure.
However, there's only a 12.037% chance of failing to cast this spell AND the dragon die showing a 1.
Then the mage has to do the Willpower test. There's a 74.074% chance of failing this test. However, the chance to fail this Willpower test AND the dragon die showing a 6 is only 6.944%.
Then finally the chance to fail this Harrowing event. Let's say this event lasts for 7 minutes, which is the average for a 2D6 roll, requiring four Willpower tests. The chance to fail one such test with these stats is 25.926%. Failing one out of four such tests is 69.893%.
So the overall chance of getting possessed from casting Blizzard with these Magic and Willpower stats is:
0.5842%
And, I might add, these are rather low level stats. We have a mage in our current roleplaying group who is now at level 16. His risk of getting possessed by casting Blizzard is:
0.0248%
Some of the art and trailers for DA4 gives off pretty steampunk vibes to me, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Tevinter on the verge of industrial revolution tbh. Not saying it’s going to happen, and not sure how I feel about it, it depends how far they go and how well it’s executed, I just wouldn’t be surprised.
I do quite like the themes that arise around the uses of magic and technology colliding though.
Idk if you two will see this or not but I’ve just been marathoning the podcast over the last week or so and am still currently at about episode 27 and listening you two talk about anthem and being hopeful about it is hilarious also hearing you say in 2018 dragon age should be out with the next 3 years 😂 oh boy how times change I’m just happy BioWare hasn’t been abandoned by EA and they seem like maybe they’ve learned there lesson and are just gonna let BioWare do there thing
So, what you're saying is... DA is gonna go full on Final Fantasy, bring back Fenris, and give us a world traveling airship? :)
I could see heated plumbing working for dwarves. At least underground dwarves. Not like water heaters or anything, but Orzammar already uses magma for light and heat, right? It wouldn't be out of the question for them to have magma heated pipes.
Wild magic would be very interesting! Don't know if it's the same in tabletop D&D, but BG3's wild magic has a mechanic where every time you cast a spell, you make a saving throw to see if you cast a random effect (good or bad) on yourself/the area around you. If you pass, nothing happens. If you fail, you still cast the spell but also bring a bit of chaos. For example, you could accidentally cast blindness on yourself and any allies/enemies around you, or blur yourself and get advantage on saving throws. It's a very interesting mechanic and could be a lot of fun for characters like Merrill or younger/inexperienced mages who can't quite control their power.
I just want Dwarven-made guns that utilize lyrium; maybe they could be lyrium powered? Or Orlesian muskets with some knockoff version of blackpowder based off of Qunari artillery.
Tevinter’s the perfect place for airships too - if your cities can float, surely your ships can too
A couple things:
Aren't some Eluvians considered telecommunications? Solas watched through one in the comics.
Also, I consider the original Avatar: The Last Airbender universe to have parallels to the Dragon Age universe. In A:TLA universe, the fire nation developed war dirigibles and eventually airplanes and cars. It became very steampunk in the spinoff series. I could see future development in a similar vein in Dragon Age. (We may be getting a "gun" as seen in artwork for DA:D... that is sort of a leap in technology).
You are not wrong on pluming being old. It goes way back to the ancient Minoans (it could be others as well but I don't know that for sure), and they are hundreds of years before what we call ancient Greece. You are right though it was just bathtubs and toilets. No hot and cold water. So I can see it showing up at some point, but it would have to be new, and for the rich.
From everything I've seen in Dragon Age, including the armor, architecture, and even the art in the background, the Dragon Age is the Thedas equivalent of our 16th and 17th centuries. The armor and Ferelden architecture leaning towards 16th century Europe and the art and Orlesian architecture appearing to be influenced by the baroque style of 17th century Europe. Use of plate armor stopped because guns were able to easily pierce the armor but given that the Thedas timeline of gunpowder use is comparatively delayed due to magic and the Qunari being secretive with their findings, it makes sense that plate armor would still be in use at this point in the Thedas timeline. All of this to say that I think the addition of more technology, such as trains, would be too big of a jump in technological advancement for me to feel like I'm playing a Dragon Age game.
I'm totally with you about running water from a faucet and flushable toilet. There is an image of the sending crystal in the epilogue about Dorian always talking to the Inquisitor/his beloved he left in the South but the sending crystal is very hard to get, according to Dorian in Trespasser.
I like the idea of an increase in technology; however I feel like Thedas is too small for actual airships and such. It would be such a massive tactical advantage to anyone who wielded it that either EVERYONE would have to have one, or no one could
I'm game for trains, but not airships. I don't know how Tevinter is, but having plumbing with metal pipes and lighting a fire under them would make hot water and you could have pipes coming from the hot side and others from the cold with no fires ahah
Didn't Solas be more like "that is dangerous", when it was about the time magic? I had this idea in my mind that there has been time magic, but the ones that knew it, knew how dangerous it was and it was "forgotten" for a reason. There isn't any proper lore to support this, but this is how I intuitively felt about it. I think that Solas would have thought that using time magic to go back in time and so to speak, fix things, wouldn't be real. People wouldn't have learned anything, and the disaster would be inevitable anyways.
The seesaw train thing you mentioned is called a handcar. Also it makes me think: are bikes too far in terms of tech? Cause idk how I'd feel about bikes being a thing in Thedas, but it doesn't really seem like it'd fit. Then again, we have magic so maybe it wouldn't be too out of place. As extra food for thought: Assassin's Creed Brotherhood had a series of side quests where you'd destroy some of Leonardo da Vinci's inventions - medievalized versions of tanks and machine guns and planes and whatnot. If the qunari were to come up with stuff like that, maybe it could have that medieval aesthetic and still work.
I don't understand why bikes are questioned as too much tech. They use wagons with wheels. They figured out gears for a catapult. The level of scientific understanding is there to put it together.
1) Joe McSlave? I take that personally, Caitie.
2) Caitie imagining content for a Dragon Age spin-off in another age is sad and funny considering we can barely get Dragon Age content itself.
3) The Elton John/Britney Spears song was good, but bad vocal mixing; Cold Heart is better.
4) I agree in that I don't think we'll see time travel again, but I doubt Elves would have cared about time travel since they were immortal; time meant nothing to them, why solve something you don't even think about?
5) Love the episode, keep up the great work!
I don't know why I didn't think of this when I lisened the first time, but Jade Empire had your PC piloting an aircraft in the game. Looked like Fireflies (the insect not the spaceship), I think
Rev, the Car Bro. And he's a steam punk final fantasy character who works on cars... and airships.
In regards to the Time Travel, Alexius could always attribute its ability to work to Corypheus, essentially the time magic requires one of the original blighted magisters.
The Kanye comment certianly.... aged.
While the DA dragons are more or less 'creatures' there's also the great dragon blood being a significant thing in the Theirin bloodline, great dragons themselves being somehow important to the world according to Yavanna, and whatever the heck the Old Gods are. There's also the reaver specialization where you drink dragon blood (presumably just high dragon blood?) to unlock new abilities. So while they're mostly 'mudane' in terms of fights in DAI, I do think there's a magical element present. Not to say I think it goes too far but just to expand on the discussion.
if magical theory requires so much math, and we factor architecture into that, then would taking down the veil change the math? would a surplus of magic cause structures to fall out of the sky, fly farther upward, or possibly implode/explode? or would it just be like more building material to work with? when magic was originally taken away, buildings fell apart & "disappeared". there are cities in Thedas today that are build upon the ruins of old elven architecture, so if magic returns, will they rise back up out of the ground and destroy the cities sitting on top of them?
just some rambling from someone who probably cares too much about this game haha (forgive me if this was mentioned in the video, i wasn't able to watch it all in one go)
Just because magical flight seems to be a thing, to quote Dorian, "flying cows over Menrathes". Also my hope about Time Magic is that it can no longer be used. Yes it was cool, but I hope it literally depends on the vale being there and breached.
listening to this after watching dragon age absolution.... some thoughts are being had! absolution spoilers to follow, don't read if you havent watched yet! talking about lyrium ghosts (leliana) and golems (shale) and lyrium trapping the soul of someone who died before it can pass through the fade..... i'm starting to see how the crimson knight happened!
Wouldn’t it be like just the strangest turn of circumstances if Dragon Age went from being this dark high fantasy in Origins to being the biggest example of the Magicpunk genre in modern RPG’s. Tbh, I’m here for it. Magicpunk is a seriously underrepresented genre anyways, why not let DA transform. It’s like going from Avatar: The Last Airbender to The Legend of Kora, which had its problems yeah but the ways the world transforms between the two series is awesome and they handled it really well. Fingers crossed BioWare can maybe pull it off better than the Avatar writers did in the Character department.
car-ypheus in the background
Some tech advancement in DA might be fun, but I would be disappointed if Bioware pulled a Fable 3 with Dreadwolf, and went full Industrial revolution
Dagna uses a crystal to spy on Calpernia if you follow the mages route and it was a potential 2 way?
MAYBE IT'S TRAINS LIKE IN ZELDA SPIRIT TRACKS... AND LINK IS THE HERO OF TRAINS!!
I think instead of time travel they could do an alternative reality travel story. Like maybe travel to another one of your world states or a fun "what if" timeline like what if Tevinter Ruled Thedas or the Elven Empire never fell etc.
I must say, im only hoping for comedians under the Qun in dragon age 4.
This is what I showed up as soon as this was posted for. Just to say this.
Really just the entire dynamic of society under the Qun is a big question mark. That includes the technology under the Qun. What if the Qun already has a form of plumbing? If anyone, it would be the Qunari to spearhead all the technological innovations in Thedas because it has been established that their disdain for magic gave them a need to innovate quickly.
Just here to read the Kanye is evil comments don't mind me...
Personally I don’t want them to progress too far from medieval fantasy level tech outside of magic. Steampunk is cool and all but I don’t really want it in thedas too much 😅
As far as current (as of DAI) tech in thedas, outside of magic they appear to be at non-powered complex mechanical devices, like trebuchets and such. I’m happy at that level.
Hey, loved your contents, are you also in audea?
something about caitie's audio the last few episodes sounds like she mumbles or moves like way away from the mic and I can't understand her sometimes :(
Car Asshat: Tevinter Drift
I don't even see the topic. Yall can talk shit for an hour and I'm in 😁
Ok so "asshat prime" for the new guest. If the magic in traventor is on par with LoK, its too far. That being said dwarven lyrim powered airships in the deep roads, could be awesome. Traventor could also have "electricity" powered by magic batteries. Time travel "currently is an engineering problem" kinda thing, people have come up with theories but Alexei got lucky?
I honestly think the main thing holding up an EA acquisition is the legal pushback Microsoft is getting over their Bethesda deal. Especially since EA holds monopolies themselves. In particular over sports games.
They're baaaaaccckkkk
Qunari would absolutely NOT fly, as no Qunari has wings. If a Qunari loses a ship, Qunari can swim: if a Qunari loses an AIRship, a Qunari drops like a stone. If a Qunari (Sten) loses his sword, he loses his honor: If a Qunari loses his airship, he loses his life.
.
Hence, no Qunari airships.
car guy's name is definitely earl, I know it.
No fucking way. Finally! 🙌 😭
hot music takes
Don’t the Dalish already have airships?
Wouldn't the closest thing to a video call and/or megascope in Dragon Age be the crystals we use in Inquisition to spy on Calpernia?
I actually despise the time travel/manipulation stuff in just about anything and specifically go out of my way to not play In Hushed Whispers because of my hatred
Also wrt time magic, I’d like to see someone attempt to copy cat Alexius, but fail spectacularly.