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Rebuilding An Engine That Shouldn't Be Rebuilt... | Saab 900 Classic Revival | Part 12
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
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you have a fourth option. get it machined for a sleeve in that one cylinder, and keep running the same pistons
Precisely or braze the area and a shade tree machining session it wouldn't wear any faster than the rest of the cylinder as long as it's not in the compressed cylinder area, I would do that and run it whilst you get the 16v engine sorted
@@kwinterburn iirc brazing is not advised in high rpm engines and its only suitable for tractors and such. theres also risk of warping or cracking so i think sleeve is the better method. good as factory and zero risks when properly machined
@@kwinterburn not sure that will work with that engine... and it won't be cheaper than going oversize pistons...
Hone ALL four cylinders Fit NEW piston rings and bearings!!!!
tell me you haven't watched the video without telling me you haven't watched the video.
Mate, I would go with option 1. Although it is the most expensive and involves your sourcing a new chain guide, at least you know what you have got. You could try to get another lower km engine, but you are again at square 1 and could end up with an even bigger can of worms.
Same same, Did it with my old B5 passat years back. Just re do this one. Properly and you know what you got.
I agree with this one. It reminds me of an old saying. “I am too poor to buy cheap shoes”. You could throw money at a bad engine or the second option could be too much hassle and not work properly or even cost you more in conversions. Boring out the block and bigger pistons would be a sure thing that would even give you a little more power
Agreed.
I agree..
I gotta agree. You could take the 16v engine apart and find a perfect block or you could take it apart and find a shit show. Same for any second hand blocks or engines you get. A slight over bore will fix this, you'll get a small power bump, and it'll be something you can find support for in the community.
At this point the saab is just crying for that 16v engine
That should be also checked out, but it's at least better in many ways. ✌🏻
I’m considering it
Useless CUNT. Impossible to watch because of the fucking SHIT ADVERTS at the start. Utter utter CUNT.
@@memphis5220please fr
@@memphis5220 Needs to Be considered Harder.... As a Huge VW guy , You can never go wrong with 16V
Would love to see more saab stuff when this is done. You would then be like m539 restorations but for saabs 😎
Have you considered getting that one cylinder sleeved. Might be cheaper than a rebore and all new pistons? Good luck with whichever option you choose 👍
D'oh! I should have read more comments before making that suggestion myself!
Bussen in alle vier de cilinders laten plaatsen.
Definitely option 1. A year from now, the extra cost will be forgotten.
Oh and I think you should get the cylinder head resurfaced. Any aluminum cylinder head need to be resurfaced before being installed. It isn’t flat anymore and you won’t get good seal. That’s the most important step when you open up old engine.
You can just get yourself a good course sand paper and you get that head smoothly resurfaced. We have done that so many engines of aluminum nobody has returned an engine.
Hello Memphis, for me I would stick with option 2. You obviously started doing this because you like doing it. Since you have another engine, why not try and find a solution with what you already have. And lets suppose that also backfires, then go for option 1. You'll be wasting more money but you'll get something better and that you know you can trust. 3rd option is by far the worst one in my opinion since it's a bit of luck based. Wish you the best and hope everything works out :)
Solution 1 is my advice first of all the cleanest and most original. Numbers Matching and so one ❤. When i see how much work you Did then i would do it this way.
Ps: iam Mechanic and body worker from proffession and big fan of your Videos 👍🏻😎🙂
I love it, specially as a Swede. I shared your channel today with one of my colleagues who built Saab 900s in the 80's and early 90's
Option 5.
Bore it over, for oversize 16v pistons, and throw that 16v head on.
You need:
16v head
16v power steering pump
Right hydraulic engine mount
In-block timing gear from a 16v
Lucas fuel system
4th option - Use the whole 16 valve engine and make an FPT engine, or at least LPT..
Saab engines of this vintage are derived from the Triumph Dolomite!!
Option 1 for sure. You know it would be done right and would keep the originality. Keep up the good work!
Go with the 16V. You need to put in the LH 2.2 fuel injection from Bosch but that you can do! Also the 8V heads were prone to wrap and oil burning bc og valve stem clearance issues. You also get a little more hp with the 16V. Keep up the good work.
Thank you Memphis..
Start of by tearing down the B202 and see if the block is OK. It won’t cost you more than time. If not… a B201 with larger bore and pistons sounds like a really interesting thing. Awesome videos! Best of luck!
Maybe an extended option 2: you can search for a Sponsor to sleeve that thing up or at least for someone to drill that cylinder down.
By making a production video out of it the company also has some advantages.
In Germany some RUclipsrs with 100k followers also get those chances. And for me as a member of a racing team, we also search for sponsors and somehow you always find one.
Maybe an opinion for you! We as community would accept that because of the saved costs and if you do the video like always it’s still entertainment :)
I agree with Dee Bee’s comment about having the block machined. It would give you more confidence in the engine. Bloody good work though👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I think you're very dedicated to each and every job you take on, sorry to see that this engine is faulty after all the work you'd undertaken on it. Keep up the great work and video coverage.
In my mind, keeping the original block and re-boring it seems the most "pure" way to do it, plus you have 100% knowledge that the block is good... the 16v block would be my 2nd choice, but I've no idea what work would be needed to get that running... and a 'new' engine is an unknown quantity, you could end up back where you are now.... but, I also get get the need to keep the €€€ under control.... bah... tough call!
Owned a 1970 SAAB 99 with a 2 liter B engine which is really similar to the one you're working on. Please don't forget the little pellets between the cam buckets and the top of the valve stems and always keep track of the valve they came off of. Pretty important when you reassemble the head. Polishing the crank: probably not something I would have pursued as you could open the overall bearing clearances. The crank looks fine to my eye's judgement over a computer monitor. Your valve seats need to see some professional seat cutting attention, honing isn't going to suffice with that much cupping and pitting
Oversize pistons are expensive but in the long run 8v engines are quite robust and will last if maintained. Sleeving is an option but then you have different heat exchanges. I would be worried about the crank clearances, too, and use some plasti-gauge (or its equivalent in the EU) to see how various the clearances are on the crank. As many have mentioned, you would know what you have after the work. The possiblity of using another engine make's pistons depends on how much machine work you are willing to invest. Personally, I would just use first oversize pistons and main bearings. Buying another engine or two might give you a batch of parts that you could, with some judicious work, adapt if you can find 8 v engines readily where you are; here in the USA most people kept and maintained the 16v engines. Best Regards.
omg its incredible how much patience you have
My dad used to love SAAB 900's he had a few of them, wish he was still around to see your rebuild, he would have loved to watch you work on the car, plus i think you have an excellent talent for making these videos.
As an owner of a '91 9000 B202i, I recommend you go with option 2, however:
1. None of these engines are perfect. In fact I'd go all the way and replace it with a B234. Previous ones tend to overheat and fail headgaskets as I mentioned on a previous video; so the chances are decent that the condition inst that great on that either.
2. Even with that damage they still go a LOOONG way before they develop issues to the point of unreliability. I've had my engine sit a long while with the previous owners and blow headgasket too and chances are there's also rust, but it's running and sounding more healthy than some '06 cars I had. It's sitting at over 560k and doesn't look like it's going to die any time soon.
3. If you do actually go with the B202i, do put in a lesser rated thermostat and fan trigger switch like I mentioned in a different comment to keep it cooler. On later (B234) models they changed the radiator temperature fan switch to where the thermostat housing is - specifically because putting it on the radiator isn't a reliable solution since the radiator can be very cool while the engine runs hot.
4. I think you've also fallen into the perfectionist trap where the more you dig the more you want to restore to factory. That isn't going to happen and definitely not cheap.. If I were you I'd set on the B202I, 'upgrade' it to run cooler (at least lesser rated thermostat or radiator switch or ideally, bring the switch to the thermostat housing rather than radiator), change the headgasket but don't dig deeper.
If it ran well before and there was no sign of heavy damage, it will surely run well after without issues.
Next year, 7-9/6, the Saab car museum festival will be held in Trollhättan, the home of SAAB. Would be nice to see you and the 900 there. I might even be able to house you for the event 😅
Option 1: Can you sleeve instead of bore? Option 2: Most complicated and risky. Option 3: What's the fun in that?
THIS is what we all have been waiting for !
With the main bearings that have gone to copper, I would have been putting a micrometer over all the journals because groves are not the only problem you can have. They can be tapered or oval and polishing them does not show that. The reason you had valve different clearance readings is that the valves have recessed into their seats by different amounts which are normal and when you look at the seat widths on your valves and seats they are too wide. This is when you have to recut the seats in the head to bring the seat width to spec and then face the valve and check that the seat is in the right place on them. You can then do valve stem heights and surface-grind them to get them all even. Running seats that are too wide leads to seat fouling especially for the exhaust valves. With regard to the bores again you did not measure them so you don't know if they are oval or belled etc so they are an unknown quantity. As others have said you could look at sleeving one cylinder but in my experience this costs more than boring all of them oversize if they have to make the sleeve. if this is just a fill-in engine till you can do up the other one I would be looking for a secondhand running engine in good condition and fitting it. All the wear that I have seen from your video points to this engine being in poor shape. I am a retired mechanic.
110% option 1. Get it machined. Send it out. You said it yourself that you want to run this engine on some lengthy distance trips. Knowing what’s in front of you that’s going to carry you that distance is huge. Do it right the first time, and I doubt you’ll regret it later. It’ll be worth it long term.
OK, depends on what you want the engine to do ? Daily driver, just a simple home shop rebuild, with a bit of help. Take existing block to machine shop and have one cylinder sleeved and honed to match the other 3. Use you existing pistons with new rings and proceed as planned. Higher performance, home rebuild with max over bore and new pistons. Deck the block to zero and reassemble as planned at home and add turbo 😁
Interesting job, Memphis. Haven't seen all the way through yet. You are cleaning the valves at this point in the video. I had to have the head in the old Volvo rebuilt. One valve was burnt and needed replacement. I decided then that if I need to do the job again, Arthur will have all new valves. It was less expensive to buy new than to clean the old ones just based on the labour time, never mind the cleaning chemicals. Plus there are no issues with any of the valves. The valve itself was only about $20CDN, so about €12. Shipping would have been the same whether 1 or 8 valves, and I figure the cost is minimal for the benefit, considering how I use the old Volvo. It is now well over 600,000 kilometers.
Personally, option 2½ sounds best to me. Use the donor engine complete with the double overhead cam head. Admittedly I know bugger all about Saab, or even Triumph, DOHC engines. Then again, I am planning a rather radical rebuild of my Red Block eventually. How does a 2.5 litre DOHC Red Block grab? That should bring it up to nearing 200 HP and 300 lb/ft if torque without hurting durability or reliability. Yay for Volvo Penta Marine engines!
I would go for option 3 you will get some spare parts, just make sure the engine you buy was a good runner before being removed
I think i would go with The 16 valve engine.
Good that you included that shot at 14:08, that was satisfying haha. Look forward to the rest, keep ‘em coming.
Een erg technische maar niet mindere interesante episode voor iemand als ik die hier absolute geen verstand van heeft. Dat zegt dus genoeg om deze episode toch met volle interesse te volgen ! En dan op het einde het trieste nieuws dat er iets met de motor is wat je niet kan negeren. En ja wat nu, ik kan dus niks adviseren maar als ik de commentaren lees zijn er best verschillende menigen over wat je nu zou moeten doen. Als ik een gooi zou mogen doen dan koos optie 3 , dan heb je niet alleen een motor maar ook veel onderdelen die erbij horen en qua prijs wellicht nog te doen. Maar onthou ik ben dus een complete Leek ! Wens je dan veel succes met je keuze wat het zal gaan worden, en zie en hoor daar graag over in de volgende episode ! Tot dan !
I have an engine that had such a bad rust in one of the cylinders that it was sized. I dingleberry honed it and now it runs just fine even though I couldn't remove the pitting. Even the compression is within spec on that cylinder. I wouldn't be much concerned unless the corrosion is so deep it goes into the water jacket. Two stroke engines have holes in cylinder bores and still run after all.
Awesome I'm for the big bore. More power!
Learn by doing! Great job, I’m impressed you have the confidence to try. That’s 90% the battle with anything you do! 👏🏼
To keep the same matching numbers block/chasis and also don't worry about the condition of the 16V block, i prefer option 1 but Machining + Sleeves and new piston rings using the same pistons. Is probably expensive but is better to do it right once.
There are other options, if the corrosion is low down in the cylinder you could just run it as it's not going to affect compression , you could braze onto the corroded area and "machine" the excess brass off, or you could metal spray the area and get the excess removed, or get liners fitted with new rings, as that would be almost a new engine
Go ahead with the overbore and have the crankshaft checked in the machine shop.
I would love to see that 16v engine in there!
I've got a golf mk1. Engine fail as time went on. Had a spare engine and was on a budget. I replaced all gaskets and bearings. Cleaned up the head checked pistons and rings put everything back together and she is still running strong to this day
Good to see you been looking out for you?
Option 3 but to make sure you get a good engine ask if you can strip it down and check and if no good maybe still keep for parts for a lower price etc or return have that at least in writing even if it's just a piece of paper that way people might chance it however if they do you can legally get your money back seems a little crazy to some but a little bit of writing on scrap paper and their signature is enough as a valid contract and if the engine is good I do not see why they would take issue with this and you'll get a heap of spare parts that you could disassemble all the smaller parts and make essentially the best out of both have a spare set on the shelf that's if you intend to create some shelving in the loft area for better organisation but that depends everybody has their own way of organising also really appreciate the video great work I was genuinely happy seeing the grit being used along with the correct tool to spin the valve and clean the seat that was nice I have done this myself a few times great fun and a good sense of accomplishment when you have it all back together knowing you have personally done every step makes all the difference in your mind well at least for me it does anyway cheers
Your doing a great job young fella. With the corrosion, is it lower than the top of the piston at its lowest stroke, if so just polish it out enough not to damage the rings. Now this advice is ONLY if your really on a tight budget, also the cylinder head does need to be checked for flatness as others have mentioned, use a straight edge and feeler gauge
Please, pleeeease rebuild the 16v engine and put that in. Them 16v engines are awesome 👍🏼
I would consider a sleeve in the one bad cylinder. With that said it sounds like you might need to pick up a donor for that timing chain guide. If that is the case you might find a better block assuming you pick up an 8 valve engine.
Top Job, good luck
Hi! Search on rover v8 timing chain guides the problem is that you get 2 of all! 😅 nice work!! Keep it up!🎉
You're a freakin' hero! 😮👍
Congratulations great job!!
option 4
You imagine you didint see the cylinder wall and go as previously planned.
It being down in the bore means it's under very little pressure if any at all, worst it can do is that the engine breaths bit more but thats about it.
Living in farm i've seen all kinds of engine damage thats simply overlooked and life goes on.. like dem Ether engines with all pistonrings broken, craked pistons, cylinders so worn you could fit credit card between liner and piston.. still these engines were used at 100% load hours every day.
having some pittin in yer cylinder is but an nature's own oilgroove!
Loves this episodes🙌🤩
This is such an enjoyable project. Lots of detail, calmly and carefully presented. For various reasons I'd refurbish the original 8V engine. Good luck with whatever option you choose!
As you've got the 16v engine there, I would take the head off an take some measurements to see where the difference is and if it can be swapped. Otherwise, even though it's the most expensive option, machining would be my choice. You'll know it done correctly and that it's not going to be an issue in the future.
Thanks for the video
RESPECT. I'd get another 8 valve block.
Option 1. Regards from ARG 🇦🇷
Great vlog…excellent skillset…fearless…impressive.
you can basically hear the car screaming "gimme some of that 16 valve"
That stinks. It's coming along so nicely. I'd do the donor swap,all the parts are already there. Good luck.
Wat je kanaal zo fijn maakt is het zo goedkoop mogelijk houden van je projecten, heel misschien kan dit een van de drijfveren zijn om voor optie 2 te gaan :) Either ways ik kijk uit naar je volgende videos!
Since the corrosion is low in the bore, I think you will be ok using the block because the piston won't move into that area.
Mooi werk en succes!
Don’t give up.
The 8/16v turbo engines for the 900 classic are just awsome! And the exhaust noise is equally awsome! A restomod 900 would be very interresting! /following closely from sweden 😁
16 valve all the way . Sweet engine it is, especially the turbo version
Mate I really love the way you work clean and methodical and very organised I'm gutted for you that the engine has a bad scratch in number 3 but if you can use the 16v engine block that would be great looking forward to see how it works out on the plus side the head and crank are all good now
Just bought one of your stickers with the volvo estate on it for my volvo v70 2.4 petrol "vera" she's now done 180305 miles and still going strong 💪
In my opinion use the 16v engine as it stands there. Clean it up, replace gaskets, check compression and bearings if everything checks out put it in.
Great channel! You would get a whole bunch of goodies when buying a spare 8V engine and there is a high chance that the chain tensioner is also better. You'd be able to cherry pick everything, but more work of course.
Just a suggestion, you could get the bad bore sleeved and bored to the correct size for your exsisting piston, thus minimising the expence?😮
You already have a spare engine so makes sense to use that somehow. Slight issue you potentially have with the compatibility is that the later engine will have the starter motor on the left and the earlier one on the right. I've never tried to mix parts from those two different eras so I'm not sure how it will go. Easy way to find out though. Pistons and chain guide will be different between the two. Saab adjusted compression ratios by changing the same of the piston crown. Make sure when you rebuild to use the 3-tooth oil pump instead of the 2-tooth pump. The early engine will have the 2-tooth pump and Saab changed it to a three-tooth pump because the earlier ones could break. The 8v engines have a really nice torque profile for driving with low power and short gears. Although the 16v is more powerful the 8v is much nicer to drive. I don't think you should bother with the LH 2.2 fuel injection and clockwork ignition system if you go down the 16v route. Those control systems are terrible. Much better off with megasquirt or some other standalone modern fuel system. If you move to a 16v cylinder head then the coil-on-plug ignition cassette can slot into the head and you can use the modern Trionic 5 engine control system.
I can’t remember exactly but there is a difference with one bolt hole dealing with the chain guides from 8 to 16. I think a new bolt-hole would have to be created in the 16v block.
If he were to try and use the 16v block in 8v config. Otherwise I believe they are identical.
@@waynesorensen7071 I've never noticed and have swapped between the two blocks before.
Hope the Green Mean Machine doesn’t cause you many more headaches along the way!
Damn, such a shame! All that hard work. I would refurb the 16v engine and stick that in
Heel interessant weer! Dankjewel!
Right to the point when is next video please been waiting patiently but now is like I need the next episode itching for automotive joy
Obviusly option number 3 ! Than you solve the chain guide too !
Absolutely gutted for you Memphis. Although the most expensive option, I’d go for your first suggestion as it will mean matching number originality. But as you have to bear the cost and the Saab just needs to be back on the road, the 16v option might be fun 👌. Good luck mate!
If I remember right the blocks between 8 valve and 16 valve are pretty much the same. If you build an engine with pistons from naturally aspirated 8V and cylinder head from 16V, you get higher compression ratio, works with 99 RON fuel still though. 8 valve head with pistons from naturally aspirated 16 valve gets you low compression suitable for turbo. 16 valve turbo pistons with 8 valve head results in really low compression ratio.
Do the 16 valve conversion with the CIS modded injector retainers. I did that to my 8V back in 1992. It is easy and you'll love the performance.
Rebuild the 16 valve, and use that one :D
16V .. Let's make the little Saab sing ❤
But You need to Open it Up as well ... He is already there 2m near you ..and then you can ask the question again.
Just use this engine Memphis. It will be fine, it's an oldtimer anyway. So what if it runs a bit rough or burns a little engine oil. They all do.
Maybe you could get the cylinder sleeve replaced ? Probably cheaper than boring out all four cylinders as you would only have to bore out cylinder 3
Great video again. Unfortunately you discovered the issue with the coolant after doing a lot of work. I think there are quite some differences between the 16 and 8 valve blocks, but unfortunately I am not a 900 expert
Might be easiest to find a matching block, but it would be cool/interesting to see you Frankenstein it together with the 16v block. Very cool project so far!
I would fully inspect the 16v engine as a first step and rebuild+use it if good. If it's a no go on the 16v, get a good used engine and salvage what you need from it.
8V and 16 Valve has the same block, crank, conecting rods. But different pistons!
I think the chain cover is the same but the chain drive is for sure different, all of it.
Just has to ad that green, Grey and red blocks is of defferent generations! Everything might not fit betwen them.
Reminds me of an old triumph engine 👍
Saab used Triumph engines on the 99s. This one is Saabs own engine, But developed with Triumph If i am not misstaken.
Search for a naked block maybe! Or there might be someone willing to part the engine out 👍
Definately 16v swap and modify valve cover to hide the fact it is a 16v so the inspectors wont suspect anything. It is still a 2liter.
But when you do that amount of work on a cylinder head you should
A) resurface the head.
B) get new valve guides and stem
Stem seals. With a high mileage
engine like that you WILL get high
consumption and blue smoke if
You don't
From a content perspective, you should definitely tear down that 16v. You cant know for sure if its okay inside too, and if you do decide to bite the bullet on machine work on the factory engine, you'll have a video in the interim while that work is being done. Even if you dont use it, we all get to learn some of the differences between the two engines.
Go with 16v engine, throw all electronic and make custom intake with dual 2bbl carbs like in your golf Mk1 💪
Have you thought about having liners fitted to the original engine ?. An engine refurbishment company could do that for you so that you can use the original size pistons and standard rings.
Pour commencer démonte le moteur du 16 soupapes pour voir l'etat du bloc , si il est en bonne état c pas la peine d'acheter un autre , le cas contraire va pour la troisieme option ..... c un plaisire de regarder t video merci
I would get the block sleeved and returned to the original bore
Isn't there something called metal spraying? I think they use it to repair worn cranks. Since the spot is not in a compressed area maybe the spot can be covered and then honed out. I once had a 1965 Mustang that had a hole in the cylinder wall. I had it sleeved because I wanted to keep the original engine. It worked just fine and never gave me any problems.