DnD Veterans Try Out Pathfinder 2e - Should You Make the Switch?
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
- In this episode we take a hard look at Pathfinder! After years of DnD we finally give Pathfinder 2e a proper try and dive into all the differences and try to answer the question - should you make the switch??
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0:00:00 - First Thoughts and Initial Feelings
0:03:22 - Action Economy Differences (3 actions vs 1)
0:16:03 - Gradient Proficiencies and Bounded Accuracy vs "Big Numbers"
0:29:13 - The Adventuring Day (wearing down resources vs everything at full)
0:40:47 - Spellcasting and The Magic System
0:54:10 - Character Creation (Ellie's Favorite!)
1:11:47 - Closing the Martial-Caster Gap and Varied Equipment
1:18:07 - Magic Item Differences and Upgrading Basic Equipment With Runes
1:26:21 - Pre-Made Monster Differences
1:33:45 - Multiclassing vs Archetypes
1:38:33 - Should You Make the Switch?! 
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Pathfinder gives an option for the flaw. You can have three boosts and one flaw, or two boosts and no flaw. This option is in the core rule book as an errata.
I am 90% sure that the new stuff is ONLY two Boosts, there is NOT an option for three Boosts and a Flaw!
@@JacksonOwex I think you’re right. But from talking to fellow GMs, it sounds like the 3 boosts/1 flaw option is pretty common as far as house rules are concerned. I’ve been allowing it at my table over a year and there haven’t been any problems.
This was a very nice discussion of Pathfinder!
For spellcasting though you are missing a couple bits. First is that not every spellcaster is a Vancian casters. Half the spellcasting classes are spontaneous casters, and don't have to worry about preparing spells at all. There is also the "flexible caster" archetype which reduces the number of spell slots a prepared caster gets each day but makes their spellcasting work more like it does in 5e (or like the Arcanist class works in 1st edition Pathfinder). Casters can make blasters, though damage dealing casters are best done focusing on multi-target damage but the Psychic class works especially well as a blaster.
Also for the ability scores, any ancestry can choose to take 2 free boosts instead of their default array. That was part of an errata to the core rule book. Modifiers do matter, but it is not the worst thing to start with a 16 in your key ability score since you will be at 18 by level 5 anyways.
For what it's worth, I have taught several people TTRPGs of all kind for decades and PF2e is on the easy side once you are past character creation which can be a lot for new players but I'm enough of an expert in the system that I don't have a hard time helping new players with it and there are great tools like Pathbuilder or Wanderer's Guide which can help with building characters.
As long as you don't give out items above the player's level the game math won't be broken, and the items that could break the game are gated behind rarity as well.
For archetypes one thing that should be noted is that they aren't just multiclass things. Archetypes are a pool of feats, and that lets them be sort of miniature classes. "Viking" or "Medic" wouldn't be great things to base a 1-20 class around, but you can pull the core ideas out into some feats and pool them together in the "viking" or "medic" archetypes. Since feats aren't about giving numerical bonuses they won't generally break the game math, so a GM wanting to run a themed game may say "Hey, everyone gets the pirate dedication at level 2 for free", to give out some flavorful mechanics.
Ya know I knew that regarding casters but I guess I just never brought it up. Probably should have.
Thanks for all that info though and the kind words! It's hard to wrap your head around an entire TTRPG and give a perfect review of it. Definitely gives some things to look into!
Regarding preping spells, the method PF2E uses also makes spontaneous spell casters more meaningful, since they sitll have the flexibility of how they use their spell slots vs prepared casters.
This was a really cool discussion to watch! Certainly subscribing!
Good news for Ellie's concerns about ancestry, Paizo released an errata that allows for any ancestry to choose 2 free boosts instead of the suggested boosts and flaws. May all your halflings be mighty (if they want to be)!
Glad you enjoyed! We've since learned about the errata and I'm excited to give it a shot!
as far as the complaint of ancestries getting penalties to scores, in the core rulebook errata in january they introduced alternate ancestry ability scores where any ancestry can get 2 free ability bumps instead of their normal scores. so you can make an 18 str halfling fighter
I have since learned! Shame we didn't realize that before!
@@MonstersMulticlass Also, 3 bonuses/1 flaw is a common house rule. I’ve been letting my groups do that for well over a year, and it seems to work well. If you’re going to embrace the alternative rule, I figure you might as well consider going all out. Also, I’ve talked with other GMs whom instead of giving 3/1, prefer 2/-, but with the option for players to go 3/-2 if they want that third boost.
Paizo is used to producing lots of high quality modules and Adventure Paths because that's how they make money. Back when they were in charge of Dragon Magazine they had to produce D&D 3.5 stories every month to keep the subscription numbers up. Then 4th ed came out, wasn't OGL compatible, and the magazine was shutting down. So Paizo took 3.5, made a few tweaks, and published adventures under their 3.5 compatible game, Pathfinder.
Because Pathfinder 2e is so well balanced (they took many lessons from 4th ed, and have some of their game designers), it's easy to make a new subclass, monster, or archetype without breaking the meta. Players are challenged from level 1 to 20 no matter what the designers do, so designers can focus on writing the story and encounters rather than fretting over adding overpowered entities.
My friends and I were playing both 5e and PF2E in alternating weekly games. Had the same GM for both. After about a month, he asked if we would be willing to switch to just PF2E (which we did wholeheartedly). His reasoning behind the request was the level of prep work he had to do for the 5e game vs PF2E. PF2e was maybe an hour of reading the AP before we played. 5e was about a week of work trying to build and balance encounters because there was next to nothing in the 5e adventure to use.
Got to the end of the video where you talk about the Archetypes. I think they do these better than D&D multi-classing to be honest, and taking a "Dedication" for an existing class is only the TIP of the iceberg. Though for Class Dedications I will say they are not all made equal, they probably shouldn't let people get Champion's core mechanic from it for example but otherwise it's neat and nothing quite as stupid as the 1 level hexblade or cleric dips in 5e.
But where it truly shines are all the options which aren't classes at all. A Champion I made was essentially the parties healer, despite us having a Divine Sorcerer. Did a lot of triage between lay on hands and the medicine skill. Because of this when the GM said we could do a Free Archetype at Level 2, I ended up taking Medic while also taking Battle Medicine to meet the prerequisite. It bumped my skill level in Medicine way up, and made my Battle Medicine more versatile as I could use it on one person another time that day. And with higher training in the Medicine skill I'd reduce that down to an hour.
And there are so many Archetypes. There's also the fun a GM could have of going "Okay, everyone gets THIS(or THESE) Free Archetype choices." Because everyone in the party is part of x or y, they're all vikings or assassins etc.
Make sure and take a look at some of the Archetypes in Archives of Nethys! There's several dozen of them beyond the Multiclass ones, and not all of them are bound by ability score. I've heard that Dnd players are more used to seeking out minmaxed builds using Multiclassing, which isn't as present in PF2E, that is true. Archetypes focus more on horizontal progress as opposed to vertical progression.
You touched on the point I think is clearest and most appealing difference between the two games - all the rules you have to stretch, use variants for or add to with homebrew in 5e simply work from the start in Pf2e. You don't even realise how many things you've had to house rule or judge in 5e until you see it in Pf2e's similiar but working systems. I just started GMing Pf2e, ran my players through the Beginner Box, also joined an Abominations Vaults game as a player, and will run AV for my players soon and I can't wait for more. It's a breath of fresh air after wrangling with 5e where it felt I had to design so much of the game at higher levels. I'm really hoping Pf2e is as smooth through the levels and from discussions online it seems like it can be.
Excellent discussion, it was great to see multiple voices all with a deep knowledge of 5e into the later levels from the DM and player side. I'd love to see more Pathfinder content from you. The dynamic between you all was great too, do you have any plans for Pf2e actual plays?
We're not huge on actual plays. Too much effort, too little reward, also makes the home game feel like a performance.
But I expect more pf content. Monster coverage seems like an obvious start. But other stuff we'll have to see what makes sense
@@MonstersMulticlass that's totally understandable, and great, I'm looking forward to it
Good video, I've been playing PF2 since the playtest and I generally agree with your assessments. For anyone who's interested in PF2, I **HIGHLY** recommend checking out the degrees of success, classes (especially how they're different than D&D5 classes), and the adventure paths (they're so much better written than the D&D5 ones, it's no contest).
I think one of my favorite things after digging into how encounter design works is that the balance remains consistent. Enemies -1 of your party level are mooks, equal level are more of a threat. +1 are noticeably tougher, and once you get into +2/+3 levels over the party that's a capital B Boss. +4 over the party also happens but is not recommended at lower levels, but you see several creatures who are Level 24 and there's even one who is 25.
But this also means that creatures they dealt with a while ago, who were terrifying and threatening being a +4 boss... are now either mooks, or complete cannon fodder.
1:03:18 - the stat penalty of some ancestries is, as of the 4th printing errata, now just one way to do it. The sidebar on page 26 of a 4th printing has the new rule - all ancestries use the same ability score system as humans. This is NOT a variant rule, but an alternate option. Meaning it's now standard rules for a player to pick which way they want to do it, not a GM choice unless the GM homebrews a choice. If you have a PDF of the rules, you can go to paizo and redownload to get the 4th printing. If not, paizo's website has the 4th printing errata.
Love the passing of the buck: Can somebody else explain bounded accuracy? XD
If there's 1 thing I know it's my own limitations.
@MMoloney86 & @MonstersMulticlass, I can try to take a stab at it, but do correct me if I'm wrong about 5e as I don't usually see high level play.
So bounded accuracy from the 5e system is basically their way of scaling it so that any check, including against AC strikes is bounded to a D20 + modifiers. And that's sometimes great, for example you could be a lvl 20 character in dnd5e and still just role a D20 + let's say 5 str + 2 weapon and see if you strike a monster. E.G. lvl 20 against a Tarasque has an AC of 25 you role a D20 get a 19 + 5 +2 + 1 from bless or other buff (this increases if you have advantage) and do a 27 to hit, and it HITs... excelent.. roll damage.
Now the down side to this is that even small level creatures have to have this bounded accuracy, suppose your lvl 20 char is going against a slime that's Challenge 1/8 with AC 11 and get a nat 2 that's a 2 + 5 + 2 + 1 for an 10 and that does not hit... That's actually pretty absurd. This is a lvl 20 character. I'm not versed in what they should have or their + something to hit, but this is just an example.
This wouldn't happen in PF2E where your unbounded accuracy is tied to lvl. In pf your tarrasque is AC 54 ok that's fine you get your D20 and roll, again it's a 19 ok that's fine, lets add the math it's D20 + Strenthmod + Proficiency + etc. A fighter would have something like + 34 (with no magical weapon which would add a + 3 possibly), let's say he is flanking so the tarrasque is at AC -2 (flat-footed) and he get's an inspire (+1) , that's a Strike of 19 + 34 +1 = 54 (would just hit), but the tarrasque is at AC 52 (Because FF) and it's a clean hit. A magical weapon of +3 would have made it more clean hit (every +1 matters).
From that example you can see that the math is pretty bounded on both measures, but it's crunchier on PF2E, however let's check that same example of lvl20 vs slime mold (Creature lvl 2) on pf2e. The character roles a 2, ok the slime's AC is 12, just 12.... ok so 2+34 is 36. That would beat the DC (or AC) by 10. That thing is a crit and thus deals double damage. EVEN with rolling a Nat 1 it's a 1 + 34 which is still a critical success, because it's a Nat 1 it lowers the success to just a normal success, It's literally impossible to not succeed, simply because you are such high level. Any creature that's character level - 4 is usually a hit 100% of the time I believe. It's also the reason encounter building works as an XP budget as you only take levels into consideration.
I know these examples are clunky and somewhat inaccurate (the DND one for sure is inaccurate) but it more or less shows you what bounded is, it likes to be within the D20 + something without making too much math happen. Whereas unbounded allows the numbers to go up to big numbers, however since everything scales with level, everything is always invisibly bounded. Check @goblinsalvagerites3132 's video on the differences, he explains better. Also some things stack because it's impossible to get Double Advantage or Double Disadvantange, but some bonuses do stack in pf2e as long as it's different categories ( Status, Item, CIRCUMSTANCE does STACK) you can wear a +3 and +1 rings that increase AC but since they are both item bonus you only get the higher of the two. Conditions are absolutely needed so you can stack penalties and get those sweet crits without just having to roll a nat20. Last thing this system is for everything in PF2E not just strikes, so everything scales @JasonBulhman's video on hacking Pathfinder, it also avoids contested rolls as every roll is always against DC, so I think it's a nice system albeit crunchy.
As an addendum:
Advantage usually accounts for a +5 ( When using a D20 and want to convert to percentage use D20*5 and that's it's value in percentage. e.g roll 17 * 5 = 85%. so in PF2E every +1 or 5% is both a 5% increase to both hit and to crit as you just have to exceed the DC by 10 or 50% to have it count as a critcal). When ever someone rolls Advantage or Disadvantage it's usually an increase or decrease of 25% on average.
If I got anything wrong feel free to comment as while I do love both the DND5E and PF2E game engines it's impossible to account for everything. I do love their math tho, it's incredibly fun application of statistics.
Edit: Forgot to mention, Pathfinder has a variant called Proficiency without Level. This turns it into a DnD5E feeling as basically that +34 becomes +14 as you subtract the 20 that comes from the level. However you have to turn the bestiary into proficiency without level as well (easy in Archives of Nethys as it is one checkbox). This turns the Terrasque AC into 29 similar to DnD, also all proficiencies go down as it scales with level. The math is still tightly bound by the PF2E engine, but:
"changes the fundamental math of the proficiency system to tell stories where being outnumbered by weaker foes remains a challenge and high-level characters are less superhuman." ~ Paizo
Yeah, with a +14 lvl 20 character a nat 1 is a normal success against the AC 10 slime mold and due to the levels of success drops into a normal failure, no damage. Same as DnD5e (in this fictional example). Against the Tarrasque it's 19+14 = 33 which still beats its 29 AC, as you can see the high level tarrasque is less superhuman (?), supermonster(?). You choose how you want to play it.
-Cheers
Im kinda suprised i didn't hear ya bring up certain spells having a normal effect and some effects being behind a critical failure on the save (ya might have and i missed it?). it makes the "save or suck" factor less of an issue and maybe makes the major effect feel more "earned" in a way if it does happen. Im glad yall sounded like yall enjoyed testing it out. Watching the banter is great. I do think 5e is more "first timer" friendly, but there is crunch in Pathfinder (and i mean that in a good way) which might be off putting to newer players of TTRPG's. Everyone has a certain sweetspot when it comes to crunch vs ease of play, Too much crunch and you're not playing a game, you're doing math, too little, and it's just boring and the suspension of disbelief is gone. It's nice to have fun playing with friends, as long as ppl are having it, then it was a good time.
Honestly it was a 2 hour episode and we still only covered so much. I definitely love the variation in saves. Oh my GOD do I love the variation in saves. Not just with spells but across the whole system. I've actually started stealing it for 5e with certain failures.
On the Purple Worm adventure debate and how that would work on PF2e is simply that the Purple Worm would be a powerfull as all hell enemy and even having 1 spell slot less would mean a lot in the encounter, even if the party would be on full HP. On D&D that Purple Worm would become ashes in half a minute if the D&D party were at full health and like half their resources.
Also about the feats, there are some better than others, but since numerically PF2e is super strict the differences are minimal enought that every option is super viable, your character will never be bad, they will always feel powerfull.
And regarding ancestries there is a rule that allows you to just pick two free ability boost and ignore the heritage ones. It is an official rule, not a homebrew.
Finally about multiclassing play with the free archetype variant from the DM guide (most ppl do) its awesome and do not break the game at all, it stays perfectly balanced.
just finished a PF2E campaign as a 20th lvl bard with wizard archetype. how does it feel? AWESOME!!!
Because big boss monsters are likely to have 1 low save i can try and target that with my spells but most of the time my best use was to destroy the low level opponents to save actions for our barbarian wrestler to thrash the casters and big monsters. did i defeat many big bads with exactly the right spell? no. Did i pull off a spell when we accidently triggered 3 encounters at once that did 750 damage and killed 5 npc? Hell Yea. My biggest suggestion is to have spells that target all 3 saves so no matter the enemy you can atleast attempt something
also look into the adopted ancestry general feat helps you create those trope breaking combos. Be the Hobgoblin who was raised by elves and get elf feats
The last thing I will say is look at the free architype variant rule. More than 80% of the community uses it so it should almost be considered standard. And I highly disagree with the idea that you can't create some ridiculous combos. What it allows is because you're not worried that your main class is going to get weaker you can take sub optimal choices for your feat and they will still be OK. We had a Sorcerer who took the dandy architect because he liked the idea of being the kind of person who was really good at parties. You would never make this choice in 5th edition because it would hurt your casting but because he knew that it didn't really affect his casting he could do that and a few times ended up really saving our butts when we really screwed up social situations
Originally there was a Voluntary Flaw heritage rule that let you apply a -2 to two your stats and then you could boost your 'bad' stat up. Basically no matter what ancestry you play, you could always get an 18 in your main stat so you wouldn't be behind any other ancestry.
In practice this ended up being a bit more confusing than it needed to be (due to limitations to prevent cheesing and stat application rules), so with the 4th print errata they just made an official rule that all ancestries can either take the stat line provided or just flat 10s across the board with 2 free boosts (the same as a human). A much more simplified way to do the same thing as the old rule.
Voluntary Flaw still exists, but now it just gives you a -2 in whatever stat you want with no benefits. Purely a roleplay thing for people that just really want to play a flawed character.
The beginner box is really high quality. I’d recommend to get it if you’re curious, our table loved it.
We went through it! It was really helpful
Really looking forward to this one. 3 friends with great chemistry hashing this out.
It really felt like the good ole days pre-podcast when we'd just talk games for hours hahhaa
There is no op feat, but there are flavor or very situation feats that most people won't take unless they know it will come up.
I never ran into the problem of character creation. The ABC's of character creation was easy to understand. Though I would suggest pathbuilder2e if you are having trouble. It's even good for new players to get into Pathfinder 2e with more ease.
Magic items don't get too powerful as long as you don't give a level 8 item to a level 3 character or something. What some people do run into a problem with is that many items are level bind.
This is because level base dcs survive for about four levels before they stop being useful, or the damage output becomes too miniscule to be worth it at higher levels. So every 4 or so levels you should expect to be upgrading your items or finding replacements for them.
On encounters: the level differences for a single monster vs a party of 4, makes it easier to survive parties attacks and dc base actions. So while it is 12 actions vs 3 action. Those 3 actions can be more potent than the parties 12.
Spells hold up all the way up to level 20. As in it never becomes too unbalance.
For new players I find an online character creation tool like pathbuilder2e makes a huge difference. Every rule for every class (all 23) for free. It really takes the stress out of trying to remember your options.
You can try different options and see how that changes the numbers. When it's time to pick a feat all the feats currently available (from all books) to you are highlighted. There are over a hundred skill feats, so as a level 2 character it is a relief to have just the dozen or so that are available to you highlighted.
It also makes it easier to find variant rules and decide if you want to use them. For example switching from standard ability selection to alternative ability selection is just a button right there in the starting ability boost box. Alternative ability selection just gives every race the same ability humans have by default: 2 chosen boosts, no flaw.
It is so helpful. Even if you prefer to play using paper character sheets an online character creator makes it easy to get there.
There are absolutely ways of getting multiple attacks for one action. That’s a big part of the “game” of Pathfinder for combat is figuring out cool ways of mixing and matching actions to get a lot more out of your three action economy. Just look at the Ranger to start with double slice.
Yeah I think that should have been mentioned. I remember Ranger having a ton of options for this. Even if it's not in the 5e way
If you play spontaneous spellcasters you can upcast your signature spells
You can pick one spell per level to make it signature
The good thing about setting the expectation of going into combat with full health is that sometimes you can take that away for some added tension.
You just need to consider that in encounter building, I usually treat a combat as a step or two higher difficulty if you didn't have any time before
I just found this video and enjoy the conversation. As a PF2e forever GM since it’s inception in 2019, I enjoy hearing about the experiences others have with it. Like this video, most of it is possible.
One thing I always find interesting is the amount of struggle people seem to have with it. I run 4 weekly groups of PF2e made up of 5th-9th grade students, and rarely do they have a problem creating a character, handling combat, or really anything else.
But then I hear people talk about the Core Rulebook, and I’m always reminded how terrible that book is when it comes to layout and character creation. No wonder folks get confused.
So for anyone out there thinking of starting a PF2e campaign or even just creating a character, I suggest you start out at Archives Of Nethys. It’s got all the mechanical options in the game for free, and between a much better layout and clickable links, everything about the game is made much easier. I honestly don’t think I’ve opened my Core Rulebook outside the first month I received it, mostly because Nethys is so much better.
Just remember first impressions are everything.
If you have experience with the system and you're teaching new folks you'll be able to guide them.
If everyone is new it can feel very chaotic and intimidating.
It's not all to say that it's impossible or that it can't be figured out, but there's a learning curve and some people don't WANT to get over the hump.
I'll say a couple of this as a person that has played 2e for a few years.
1 healing and full health, yes it's expected to be at full health, with mundane healing from medicine most of the time with 10 minutes of testing can get you to fighting chance. If you know that your canters may want to space their resources instead of casting everything they got to end the fight as fast a posible.
Personally I like it, just works.
Second blaster casters can be a thing and they work. Now this dependa on the GM and the fight, if you fight -2 level mooks then it's excellent. If you want to kill a boss with a fireball then it's better to debuff it and help your fighter to kill it. Spellcaster are still awesome but it's just than in 5e they are just broken in comparison to any one that doesn't cast spells.
About stats yes there are new rules about ancestry you can always starts with 10 in everything and +2 with two stats.
Also there is another optional rules that gives you a flaw in one stat to give you a +2 in another stat so you could give you a flaw in another stat to up your str to start your half ling fighter with no problem.
Character creator is not per se complicated but there are a lot of options to choose and the game in balanced I. A way that you can choose most of the bas options and you can still have fun up to level 20.
I was playing my 4 campaign on the same week and I created a bad character just for kicks and giggles and it was grate didn't crit much but I was fine.
I forgot to about multiclass.
Most of the player base use a variant rule that is free archetype.
When you pick you class feat you pick also a free Archetype feat for flavor and so on.
And it's awesome.
Very comprehensive review. As for picking feats for your character that might end up broken for your build, PF2e has retraining rules built in. If you find one that is wrong for your build, take a week or so and retrain.
They have eratta for the ancestry stat boosts at first character creation, with an option (which the player can choose) to allow either 2 stat boosts or use the standard ancestry array of boosts and flaws.
As for items being balanced, every item has a level as well as a rarity and if you stick within a level or two of the character's level for giving players magic items and gear, you are not going to break the balance.
Yes! I homebrewed so much stuff in my DnD 5e campaign that's just... in Pathfinder.
I made the switch years ago, and never looked back.
I found your take on Multi-Classing/ Archetypes really interesting. Because while you are correct, you're also wrong about it.
DnD has a base problem of not having meaningful character customisation. Multi-Classing addresses that base problem, while creating others.
PF2, as basic, has LOADS of meaningful character customisation. An observation that you've made yourselves. So it doesn't have the same base problem that needs Multi-Classing to fix.
Additionally; you might want to look into the Free Archetype Variant Rule. Which gives you extra Feats for free, that can only be spent on Archetypes. Meaning that you don't need to sacrifice your Class Feat, to take the Archetype in... Whatever you fancy, really.
This pairs really well with some of the stranger options available.
My current Magus is Free-Archetyping into Ghost. So he's floaty and see-through!
Pf2 plays well all of the way to lv 20. Plus it’s nice that most of the published campaigns go to lv 20 and most tables use the free archetype rules which broaden characters but don’t break them, and there are already like 60 or 90 archetypes and growing
As to "Multi-classing" in PF2e most people seem to use the Free Archetype optional rule which REALLY opens up characters to being something unique and sometimes extra powerful. But for the most part PF2e was designed to prevent huge variance in the power of character builds, this helps prevent the game from becoming unbalanced.
As someone who is wanting to play and have read the material, it's difficult to make that switch. Its not just the increase in math. It's not just convincing the group. It's not just the fact that dm-ing homebrew is more difficult (we only play homemade campaigns). It's kind of all the above. Hope to try to dm a campaign someday but the stars need to align.
Start with one shots! We're doing small games between our regular campaign to acclimate.
I agree though it's not a quick transition
The Beginner Box is a great way to learn the game as a GM and Player.
Homebrewing from what I have heard for pathfinder 2e is a lot easier when making weapons or creatures compared to 5e I know you were more so meaning have your own campaign
30:00 - My experience on this expectation of being at full resources per encounter is that PF2E does quite the opposite of that. In our game we find ourselves running out of heals and spell slots after a few encounters and a few fights in and we're looking at multiple people making death saves and us trying every trick we can just to survive a non-boss fight. At least in the lower levels PF2E can easily overwhelm a group.
One thing I've noticed in my playtime of PF2E in these past few months, it seems like as long as your characters are geared and buffed, and enemies debuffed to where they need to be, you should ideally be able to hit on a 9 to 11
Just for the record, the PF2 tarrasque has AC54
I was actually looking at it after recording! It looks so fricken cool
1:48:00 whoa whoa, to clear up a bit, Todd Kenreck is the head of DnD Content, not DnD itself. His title is Senior Content Consultant. He's basically the chief interviewer/media guy. Pretty sure that was basically his primary job for DnDBeyond before Wotzy picked him up
The current head of DnD appointed by Hasbro is Dan Rawson, a former Microsoft exec who's the one talking about digitizing and monetizing the game (I think there's some fear he might even be an NFT shill though I don't really see any news sources to back that up)
Apologies that is what I meant! Ah I was hoping Ellie just took that part out.
Regardless he is who I listened to and I do not love his view of the game. It felt very sterile
This was the best PF2 vs 5e video for me. It didn’t feel like bias or agendas of any kind were involved, just some people who share my tastes spelling out what they liked. Also, while I like everyone on here a lot and value each perspective, Will absolutely killed it this time. Thanks!
I think it's safe to say that Will is getting fed up with 5e's bullshit hahaha
The class archtypes have stat requirements (in general) but the more broad flavor archtypes don't (also in general) and those are some of the coolest! Also with the free archtype varient rule everyone gets both their class feats at the even levels and a free archtype feat at each even level.
If magic items in Pathfinder 2e scare you, you could take a look at the Automatic Bonus Progression variant rule. That rule just automatically gives players the assumed numerical upgrades from magic items. That leaves magic items to only be about cool effects.
Though to be honest I think the game is a bit more fun with magic items the way they are. Even if it is definitely a bit spooky to begin with. You don't need to be super accurate with it, my GM regularly forgets to give us gold and remembers later and gives us a bunch to make up for it and it works fine.
1:00:00 - on some choices being clearly worse. For the most part the cases of that are not too common in PF2E. There are one or two that will be demonstrably better or worse depending on the GM's enablement. Look at the Investigator class for example. A slight difference between two GMs can make this THE META class or the worst possible choice. Everything hinges on how often your DM lets you do a weird gimmick mechanic behind which a huge pile of things are locked. If you can always do them you are too powerful, if you're never allowed to use them you end up locked out of your class. Outside of that example though - balance issues are rare and less severe.
I don't have a lot of actual play eperience, but research TTRPGs as part of my job and have consumed 1000's of hours of analysis online. My understanding is that when the devs at Paizo created the encounter system the way they choose to balance what a extreme vs. severe vs. moderate vs. low vs. trivial encounter is, was to assume that the party is at full health. Then you can run the math and set the budget so that any group of creatures that falls within the XP budget at each level will be within in a certain range of difficulty.
Almost universal consensus (at least from what I have read and watched) is that this is indeed true for the lower levels (say 1 - 10 or so). As PCs levels go up, and especially if the players understand the team work tactics and optimization of play this can begin to be less accurate as a campaign advances... but the tight math was able to be balanced by making the assumption that all PCs would enter each encounter at full (or nearly full) HP and with all of their focus points/powers available.
As a PF2e GM who has run multiple high-level games, I can confirm it holds up really well, especially compared to high levels in other games. It’s not entirely perfect, and it’s because of the very reasons you suggested, teamwork and optimized play. The beauty of this, though, is it actually forces players to play together. And perhaps most impressive, every player choice in combat matters (regardless of level). It’s not like 5e, where 80% of most combat decisions on any given turn are mechanically useless because someone else in the group has already secured Advantage/Disadvantage.
I’m a pathfinder 1e player thinking about making the switch myself and I really enjoyed hearing this breakdown of 2e, very informative.
It’s been a couple weeks since you posted this, and I’m curious where your thoughts are at the moment. While I made the jump from PF1e over to 2e at inception, I basically had to be dragged there by a couple of my groups. Now it’s hard for me to play anything else. In fact, I’m almost done converting my Wheel Of Time game over to PF2e just because I don’t have much interest in messing with the 3.5/PF1e mechanics any longer.
My one warning is that it’ll initially feel like someone took many of your most powerful “toys” away compared to the first edition. But I encourage you to push through, as after a few sessions it becomes pretty obvious this system just works so much better. You won’t really miss those toys.
Spell casting can be a sticking point if you are coming from 5e but Vancian casting has been the standard for most of D&Ds existence . So for people not coming from 5e or are just starting, it will probably not be as much of a big deal.
Would love to see you all go through the game Mastery guide as there are variant rules in there that really pull back the curtain on how the engine of the game works and can be modified.
One of my biggest issues with 5e for a while has been how underused weaknesses and resistances are, it seems like there are no monsters above cr7 or so that have an actual weakness.
This statement that the designers assume you are at full is not 100% accurate. The system ALLOWS for it, you absolutely can push the pace as a player or the GM. Having said that, the tension comes from encounter design, a fight with a monster that is 2 or 3 levels higher than the party is very risky. That monster will often crit with it's 1st attack, and severely hurt what is presumably a front line combatant. Auto hightening cantrips & readily available healing means that characters can stop for maybe 1 hour to "top off" and then continue on to the next fight. My experience in 5E is the 1st encounter in a dungeon spellcasters nuke it with leveled spells, and then it's "ok time for a long rest".
Great vid review and comparison. Helps me solidify the decision to switch to Pathfinder 2e.
Cheers!
Pathbuilder is a great tool to use, both as a GM and player. :)
It may be worth checking Paizo again in November. They are well aware of how daunting the Core Rulebook is for newcomers, so they're going to "remaster" the book into Player Core and GM Core books, as well as Monster Core and Player Core 2. The current Core Rulebook is a mix of Player and GM resources where players only need maybe 15% of the book to get started and then 25% more for spells and items.
I saw that! We won't be shying away from PF as they make those updates/remixes. But I look forward to the update.
My dog chewed up my core rulebook so I also have an excuse to buy a revised copy haha
I will always disagree that Ancestories/Races having set bonuses/negatives is a bad thing. If there isn't anything that makes them different then why not just have them all be amorphous gray blobs? Does that same thinking extend to the Ancestry Feats as well? Why can't I have a Halfling who is just as strong as and Orc with Kobold wings? Because then what's the point of having Ancestries at all?
100% agree about DMing 5E monsters
Great video
1:34:33 There is another way of multiclassing that is closer to the 5e method; it is called "Dual Classing". But no one ever does it as it requires more "book keeping".
And once people stop complaining about how PF2 does it they realize it's just generally better, and that's even before you throw in the Free Archetype variant rule!
@@JacksonOwex The Free Archetype variant rule rocks as long as your careful. Some combinations can make the GM's life harder, especially as free means they arent giving anything up to get it; but for the most part its usually ok.
I agree the proficiency system is great
Will I be switching to Pathfinder? Maybe. As a player I love the depth of feats, like Ellie, the 3 action economy (in concept), and I'm open to the more "gamey" aspects of the system, but as a system 5e is so accessible and well know by the group I play with that I would take time for us to all grasp PF2e. My group of friends is looking play a one-shot (it's been postponed the past two weekends (: ) and I've delved into making characters and had a blast. I think it will depend on the group and the level of intensity my table is looking for when we choose to try to schedule a game. Either PF2e for a system heavy strategical game, or the surface level 5e that we're all familiar with.
PF2 REALLY isn't that much more difficult than 5E. Plus 5E is just too oversimplified, so much so that some of the things that are supposed to make the game LESS confusing make it MORE confusing to mem like "not" being able to use my main action as a move action but instead using a "main action ability" called Dash, which just let's me freaking move my speed! IT'S THE SAME DAMN THING AS JUST USING MY "MAIN ACTION" TO MOVE!!! WTF?!
Interesting. I very much disagree with the "it's simpler to make a new character in 5e"
I mean sure, if you are making a level 5 character from scratch then yeah I agree, gotta swim through a ton of feats and what have you.
But like at level 1?
You just do your ABC (Ancestry, Background, Class) which btw, I should add this makes it extremely easy to know the order of things. I spent months confused as to what the intended order of adding stats to my chosen character was, so suddenly I'd find that I actually made the wrong choice when I had to choose between 2 proficiencies because my backround already gave me that and I had to hunt down again to the original page which gave me the choice to know which other proficiency I should've taken...
Anyway you do your ABC and that simple process of choosing the character you want to play already gives you the numebers to fill in, so no need to having to break down the stats to know what each thing does and what is convenient for the specific class you are going for. And then what? You pick like 2 feats? and spells if you are a caster. Oh and you grab yourself the standard equipment of your class which is just like right there, no need to think about it.
Like "picking 2 feats" is the only kinda complicated part here because there are many options and honestly you can just pick what sounds cool and you are golden.
Also I'll add that the Ancestries and Classes are both in charts next to each other so just saying "this one and this one" is much much easier than having to go through the entire book looking at each one.
I wish this was also the case with the backgrounds, but we can't have it all I guess.
I think D&D took the wrong lesson from "too many splatbooks." Paizo put the rules up online for free until they noticed a fan site, Articles of Nethys, did it better. So now they support that site instead. Once another splatbook hits, AoN adds it within a week and you're good to go. GMs don't have to worry about rules they've never seen before- they just look it up online. There is a rarity system GMs can use to ban things that don't fit with the setting. Guns, for example are uncommon - the player probably has to explain how their PC got access to guns.
D&D's solution was to force you to buy the book or subscribe to dndbeyond to legally get access. Which means GMs are in the dark again when you walk in with a crazy build. That wasn't because there were too many books, it was because no one had access to the rules.
So there’s optional flaw (you can take an extra flaw for an extra boost) or you can just choose to take two free boosts and no flaw with variants on ancestries
About the complexity... I am not sure 5e is simpler, but could listen to the arguments. But the Starter boxes for 5e are terrible compared to the Beginners box from Paizo
Pathbuilder and referencing the books
I have subscribed to your channel!
Thank you!
"Yeah. And I love when people.. Like, Comment, and Subscribe! Hahaha boom, hit it in mid-way through the episode," - Jarred Bournigal, 26% of the way through the episode 28:45
Also, I just checked the website and noticed that under the "select author" tag it still has Ellie under her old name and picture. Just in case y'all meant to update it but missed it.
Thanks for mentioning Isaac. I will fix that
If people want the dumb barbarian to be able to roll well and know something they can take the Untrained Improvisation feat. That lets them add their level to untrained skills. But that's a part of their character then. Kind of like a jack of all trades sort of thing.
Wow I love that.
And of course, there's always the option to invest in Arcana and Intelligence as the barbarian.
Its the oposite for the items, many ppl say the magic items are underpowered too much.
Good. I would so much rather underpowered magic items. I am a big big fan of horizontal improvements over vertical. More options mean more creativity. If I can give more magic items without breaking balance I am a happy camper
BTW remember 80% play whyt optional rules "free archetyp" so you will get free archetyp at 2nd lvl.
Will be switching to Shadowdark RPG.
Im not familiar with it! What do you like about this one?
@Monsters & Multiclass It's on kickstarter now and dungeons craft did a great video on it.
I feel a really big point was missed here.
PF2E rules are all free.
Your players do not have to pay money inorder to build a character.
My table has made the switch to pathfinder. I really recommend it if you mostly play virtual as u can have the vtt do most of the math for you.
Man, if people struggle with simple addition and subtraction for numbers that don't go above three digits they've got MUCH bigger problems than not being able to play Pathfinder.
Genuinely I hear it all the time as an issue.
I personally loved flash cards as a kid so..
Idk
I'm not sure if I am going to make the switch. While I personally enjoy PF2e, especially character personalization and skill increasements I feel like for my table, where half of the table is brand new to tabletop roleplaying games. I feel like most of my friends (players) prefer social encounters over combat encounters. So in my situation (?) having more crunch wouldn't benefit my table, especially when I am the only one who optimizes my characters (when I'm a player). My sorcerer dumped Dex, and took a 13 STR.
I unfortunately prepped a somewhat combat heavy tri-shot with a minor focus on puzzles. There will be opportunities to socialize but again it will be minor. I added a town that they can go to to relax so there's more chances for them to talk to living people.
Armed with that knowledge I am making a deep dive into Waterdeep as the focus of a longer campaign, and I am doing everything in my power to quickly learn the city, and its biggest players, as well as the NPCs they will interact with.
I know 12 of my masked lords, the open lord, and I'm not adhering completely to cannon, because I feel like the events of Dead Mask could be used as a quest for my players to prevent (or enact) political assignations (in Waterdeep) and if they want to Dungeon Delve they have dungeon of the mad mage, and a few others.
Part 2: While I haven't played Pillars of Eternity each stat means something in that game, and you can chooses to play a Muscle Wizard and still have a "viable" character.
That was a weird tangent. If my table wants a more crunchy system, I would make the switch
I get it for sure. Honestly I can't imagine our table switching if only 2/6 of us were interested in the crunch. If we were all social encounters and puzzles I dont think we'd even think about it
Hard agree on doing what's best for the table.
I'd at least give the beginner box a try as a one shot if any one is interested however, I've always felt that if you can play 5e you can play pf2e as the crunch isn't as bad as expected. But it would help in that type of scenario when you have characters that don't exactly know how to optimize, as many parts of that are hard-coded into the engine. I've found it's really very hard to create a "bad" or "unoptimized" character in pf2e.
While everyone says the math is "unbounded" it absolutely is and it's tied to character level. I'd use pathbuilder or wanderer's guide whose source is just CRB and APG and give it a go at trying to create a character and see if you can create a character that's un-optimized. Rather it's more important to have a party optimized,.
The crunch is only there at combat and it's just 3 things item bonus, circumstance bonus, status bonus and the same with penalties. They don't stack but they can cancel each other ( +1 heroism, -2 sickend is still a -1 to status bonus) Check Archives of Nethys rules page, that's as crunchy as it gets. I think I said in the other comment, this is so every +1 (5%) matters. But yeah keeping track of numbers does make it crunchy (I use a vtt so I rarely need to keep track manually). I still think it's worth a shot (a one-shot).
However a one-shot is not the same as a switch. I don't believe people should switch unless they absolutely want to. If people are having fun in 5e then that's what works. No need to create headaches for everyone. During the whole OGL stuff I found people ask if they should switch and I found this to be a bit counter-productive. Only switch if you've given it a try and liked it, if not, just keep playing what you're playing.
> I feel like most of my friends (players) prefer social encounters over combat encounters.
Nothing in Pathfinder 2e prevents your table from enjoying social encounters. At all.
Quite the opposite, in fact, since there are several rules that can create a "Social Encounter" that can have all kinds of challenges, turn based stuff. It can be quite well structured if you're up for it. Some players might invest a lot and can get really good at that (check out the skill feats for Diplomacy, Performance, Society, Intimidation and Deception).
As an example, there's one such encounter in the Adventure called "The Slithering" for 5th level PCs in PF2e that features a public debate between a party and a known figure from the town. My friends loved the encounter set up by the official AP and the spices I threw in there.
Particularly, I think you can run PF2e as free form as you normally do in DnD5e (the occasional check to know if characters are lying, intimidating them or persuading them) or you can go all out and structure it as a combat with character turns and social actions having discreet effects, it's up to you.
@@fjh89 What rationality!
Counterpoint on ease of learning ,,the pf2 beginner box is miles better then the 5th ed one
Infinitely. But it really just scratches the surface
Play a session live :)
I’m listening to this again and it’s disappointing to hear the one guy say he won’t run PF2e for players new to tabletop rpgs. I run multiple sessions a week for grades 5th-8th, most of which consist of new ttrpgers, and they rarely have issues. Just use Archives Of Nethys instead of the ridiculous Core Rulebook and you’ll cut down on potential issues ten-fold.
I won’t claim making a character in PF2e is EASIER than in 5e. But treating it as though it’s some monumental task is pretty silly and comes off overdramatic. I don’t know who your fellow player is that you don’t think can handle it, but assuming he can read at a minimum 5th grade level, knows how to click on links to take him to websites, and can add and subtract small numbers, he’ll be fine.
The core rule book got an errata where any ancestry can now choose to use the any two free boost instead of the normal racial ones...but in exchange, you can no longer use the flaw system.
While 5E could be picked up faster for a GM running a homebrew, a GM that needs an AP to run games will ABSOLUTELY have a better time of it running Pathfinder as 5E AP are UTTERLY rubbish.
People should ABSOLUTELY stop playing D&D and check out other systems, doesn't even have to be Pathfinder(or Starfinder)! There are HUNDREDS of TTRPGs that deserve more attention, ESPECIALLY after what WotC has decided to do with it's brands the last few months!!!
Now, will people realistically stay away?! F*** NO!!! Most of the people that screamed and cried about the OGL BS have already gone back to the waiting(and "murderous") arms of WotC, that is IF they even bothered to leave at all!!!
No lies detected.
We should have made a point to end with telling folks to check out other games regardless.
Nothing has helped me more in finding out what I want from ttrpgs than playing other games.
You learn so much. Like why people need to stop trying to make 5e do everything
If you think a 2 point deficit on your strength makes a fighter "non viable" (1:03:30) then you were either not paying attention, or are so caught up in the idea of a penalty that you are not seeing the benefits of the races with ability flaws.
I think it's realistically the second. Would you care to explain to someone still learning the system what makes those anrcestries so good?
@@MonstersMulticlass It would be so much easier in an actual conversation, lol. But, basically, a 2 point flaw is effectively a -1 to your hit and damage rolls.
At lvl 5 you get 4 +2 bonuses to distribute. You can start at lvl 1 with a 16 instead of 18. At lvl 5 you would increase your STR to 18 while a human would increase his 18 to a 19 (the +1 level up bonus is only +1 for abilities 18 and higher). So, from lvl 1 to 4 the human has a +1 advantage, from 5 to 9 the numbers are equal (both 18 and 19 STR give +4, just like DnD). The +1 advantage comes back from lvl 10.and remains til lvl 20. A human can get up to 22 STR. (18+1+1+1+1), Your Halfling is capped at 21 (16+2+1+1+1)).
But many people suggest stopping your ability increase at either 18 or 20 (personally I stop at 20 for most characters), I find that the ability scores are better spread out, the skills in PF2e are so important that having more abilities as high as possible is more advantageous than it is in 5E.
I would rather have :
Str: 20
Dex: 20
Con: 18
Wis: 18
Int: 12
Cha: 18
The biggest blind spot I see from DnD players moving to PF2e is centered on undervalued ability scores and skill usage. Remember that you can frequently use your CHA in combat (feint or intimidations)intimidation, recall onowledge is a powerful tool and perception (often used for initiative) is WIS.
@@MonstersMulticlass To continue, Halflings also get several more options for Heritage than humans, some are quite interesting (but not more or less powerful than humans) not to mention the Ancestry feats at higher levels, several races have more interesting choices than humans.
And finally, as others have pointed out, you can just give your character 2 bonuses with no flaw instead of 3 bonuses and a flaw.
Honestly that's really helpful! Thank you
The Great Tabletop Exodus of '23 continues!
Right? We were checking out pf2e over a year ago but I'd be lying if I said the ogl didn't help
do you guys have a discord id love to chat im from the pf2 community and id love to help out :)