Based on accounts from folks in the historic aircraft community, the airboss was a "nepobaby" that had no business running an airshow. He became the airboss because his father had been an airboss for many years. From my understanding, he was a poor planner that preferred to make things up as the show progressed. His father has a similar style and a copy of a copy is not as sharp as the original. As called out, the guy was a poor communicator. His instructions were long winded and often unclear. Preshow briefings were equally confusing with folks unclear on who does what and when. Finally, the airboss was, to put it kindly, a winking brown hole. The guy was said to have a big head and thought himself as the "smartest guy in the room."
That's all true from what I've read but it's important to note that it takes two to tango. Despite the pilots and participants later saying that throughout all the preflight briefings and practices, there were a litany of red flags that gave them major pause including clearly unsafe procedures, confusing language and communication issues, last minute changes, etc. not one spoke up about any of it, nor did anyone suggest, ask for or insist on any changes or modifications. All pilots should understand how critical CRM is and the fact that nobody said a word - not to the air boss, not to the FAA rep, not to the show management, or even to each other - means the blame doesn't all fall on the air boss. Accidents are always a chain of events and there is never a singular person responsible. This should be a good reminder that everyone is responsible for safety and it is everyone's responsibility to speak up when they see a safety issue. There will always be cowboys and aholes, but if everyone is doing their part properly, they will either be corrected or filtered out before something tragic happens
@@guategringo I think the issue is that while there is certainly overlap, they are two very different and distinct skill sets. ATC is directing orderly, widely spaced traffic in established airspace's with extensive electronic safety aids, purely to ensure separation and to get them to their destination, whereas air bosses are directing extremely high density fast paced traffic through planned complex choreography, intentionally keeping them as CLOSE as possible to each other and to the crowd while still maintaining proper specified and safe separation, all by eye with no screen or electronic aids, managing not only spacing but timing and deconfliction of different show lines, different aircraft performance profiles, etc to make sure they're in proper position and formation for the choreography when they reach the show line. It's like nascar vs F1 drivers. They're both ultimately doing the same sort of think at a high level but they are also very different environments, they each require a different type of training, skill and style, and being great at one does not necessarily mean you'll be good at the other. If that makes sense
Sure hope that "air boss" is no longer involved in air shows. I've heard he is known to fly by the seat of his. Absolutely no pun intended. Apparently his father was the same when he was an air boss.
@@MrHowlor5 Could caving to political correctness, woke ideology and DEI initiatives have anything to do with it? Under massive political pressure from the left, the old CAF was forced to change it's name so as not to 'offend' the easily offended ... and here we are.
I always wanted to fly on the Texas Raiders. My wife had been researching getting me a ticket when she suddenly and unexpectedly died in her sleep at the young age of 29. The day of her funeral, as I was standing over her casket being lowered into the ground, I looked up and saw the TR flying in the distance, out of their usual spot at Red Bird Airport (now known as Dallas Executive). Sounds nerdy, but I always kinda considered it to be a sign from her or something. Anyways, when this crashed happened, that moment at the graveside was all I could think about for days.
Truly a sign. My wife was dying and she said not to look for anyone, I will send you someone. She did and I found her in December 2015. She even reads books just like my wife did. Beginning, end, and back where she left off.
If you want to stop having mid-air collisions at air shows, stop running planes in the air with intersection flight paths at the same time. Regardless of the shitty air boss, there’s absolutely no need for taking these chances just for the excitement of a few spectators.
Why don't you go on and step off that high horse of yours Mr. Keyboard Expert. The whole point of airshows like that is to simulate history. That'd be like telling WW2 re-enactors to stop using guns for their scenarios because blank rounds might be able to kill. While it is never the cause of one sole factor for such incidents, having an incompetent "airboss" who is not even a qualified air controller muddy communication like that is a huge risk. If you have a trained controller calling the shots to professional pilots you'd likely avoid such a problem.
accidents will still happen no matter how careful everyone is. the 1 true way to avoid this happening again, is to just stop playing with relics. put them in a museum in pristine condition. where they're flight ready, but take out their fuel. take out their oil. take out their hydraulic fluid. take out their batteries. and disconnect the power line to each starter motor for each engine. then never touch it again other than to keep it clean. it's sad. but everyone will regret it when there's no more left to look at. like that crew that went into the tundra to recover a crash landed b29 from the snow. and then it burned down on takeoff. the idiots. "we gotta fly it home on its own power!" no. should've taken it apart and shipped it to a musuem to be put back to pristine condition there and never touched again. i'm telling you guys. stop playing with relics. every one of them lost is a whopping 10 to 25% lost in the remaining existing number of them in the world. if this keeps up, there will be 1 left of all of them in the world, and some dumbass will still keep flying all of them until one by one they all go extinct. stop. playing. with. relics.
@@Subreon thats the stupidest take so far there are already these same models in museums that arent airworthy but look just fine to be kept in a museum
@@simply_eli01you call out one person for being on their keyboard yet you yourself sound much more like a keyboard warrior. The OP sited a concern that has been prevalent in airshow mishaps that have not only cost pilots their lives but people on the ground. Get back to mom’s basement pal.
I'm a commercial Instrument Pilot and a previous Air Traffic Controller. I have the sad experience of witnessing 2 mid-air collisions, one as a controller (pilot error) and the other at a small uncontrolled airport air show. I can still see clearly both events in my mind. Very sad to see this one, especially with the loss of life and two historic aircraft. RIP.
The biggest failure is to have fast fighters crossing in front/behind slower moving bombers without adequate vertical separations. Have a clear plan, stick to it , safety must be the primary concern.
True enough, but the single-most worst thing that he did was approve the movement when he HAD NOT confirmed that both pilots had a visual on each other & he went right ahead & told them to move to their lines. It was an appalling idea from the outset that he had no consistent deconfliction throughout, as he had room to utilize height as well as he shouldn't have had the bombers on the outside track in the first place resulting in a cross-over. But even with that, they had a rule that no change of line would occur without pilot confirmation, he never received it & still gave the command to move to their next line, a line that had them crossing over the others path with no real height separation. It really is shocking & 100% preventable with common-sense, let alone care. R.I.P to the pilots & crew.
@johnstirling6597 100% agree. Pilot debrief did a fair analysis of it also. Other than the reason that you gave , its inconceivable why he would set up a circuit that has the aircraft crossing the same point in space & then he ignores the slightest of safety backstops that he, himself, put in place. He couldn't have lined up the swiss cheese better if he had tried. Appalling. I believe that they don't require any sort of license to be an air boss, though I may be wrong about that.
A bunch of "Good 'ol boys" at the to let one their own appoint his nitwit son as airboss. They also as a group completely failed to plan correct separation and movement patterns, then brief them thoroughly. I consider that unforgivable.
I agree. I don't mean to pick on them, but I remember them back when they weree still called the Confederate Air Force!! I saw them perform back in the nineties, but they used less planes.
He is not any criminal. He did not fly his aircraft into someone else's. Or do you blame whiskey brewers for crimes committed by someone else after drinking whiskey?
@@MrChopsticktechThose families should point the blame to the pilot who rammed his aircraft to the other! But then, Americans love to blame coffee brewers for burns after they spill coffee themselves on their own skin. No own responsibility for one's own actions.
@@odiloglobochnik2259 He is absolutely a criminal. He created a situation where a fatal accident was inevitable. Involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, reckless endangerment. Take your pick.
The airboss has primary fault but... all the pilots should have known that his planning was ludicrously unsafe and none of them spoke up. That's a wild level of complacency.
I was thinking the same thing. Like, looking at that plan in the briefing no one thought that the formations crossing each other's lines was a bad plan? Air boss may have been primary cause, but there were a lot of people who could have pumped the brakes. Either way, huge shame, hope it leads to lessons learned.
.. truly .. and HOPEFULLY any pilots flying future airshows will DEMAND a meticulously high level of clarity and flight safety in briefings .. no RUSHING
This is so sad and such a waste of life for these people who just wanted to entertain the crowd doing something that they all loved, flying and preserving the memories of the many who flew before them. I must admit I shed a tear or two watching this terrible incident unfold, so sad... Take care and stay safe everyone, Joe
Very well done. This took some effort. I’ve been following this since it happened. The extended audio told the story. It was a huge loss of people and planes.
I once read that as many as HALF of all aircrew deaths in WWII were accidents. Either on take offs or landings and many mid air collisions and other mishaps. You can't have so many planes in a small airspace and not have accidents.
@@donprice9050 To check for myself i looked at the final report of battle and non-battle deaths for WW2. 60% of officers and 55% of enlisted in the Air Corps are reported as dying in battle. 35% of officers and 23% enlisted in the Air Corps are listed as dying in accidents involving aircraft.
@@prinzalbatross9526 That's still a lot! My mothers partner was in the RCAF late in the war. He crashed taking off on his first mission. He was drunk! That was the end of his war.
I was in a T-28 at an airshow in San Marcos, TX, with the same Airboss. His in-flight instructions at times were extremely confusing, and the pattern we had to fly was unnecessarily complicated, leading us to lose visual identification of the other aircraft at times. I complained to him politely afterwards, but was blown off, because I didn’t have the “experience” that he had. I would ascribe 0% of the blame to the P-63 pilot in this tragic accident.
@@duncandmcgrath6290 Weird that you blame the P-63 pilot when there are several videos out already explaining how it would be difficult if not impossible for him to have spotted the B-17. He was the third in a formation of three fighters, his focus would have been on his leading aircraft and hist instruments, not looking all around for other aircraft, that just wouldn't have been his job and would have been the least of his concerns. Wild that you blame him for not further dividing his attention to do the job of the airboss, which was airspace deconfliction.
Normally a disaster like these reflects the swiss cheese model, meaning a lot of things had to go wrong. But not in this case, this was sorely on the airboss. Terrible. May they rest in peace.
Agreed. I went to a few air shows over the years, but will never go again. The last one closeset to where I live had a fatal crash during practice flights.
I was there that day. Luckily I did not witness the crash. My wife had surprised me with tickets to take a ride in FiFi the B-29. We got there super early as we were to be the first ride of the day. Unfortunately there were delays in maintenance as one of the engines needed to have a part replaced. It took a few hours and we were on stand by in a hanger. This delay caused me to miss demonstrations of fighters and TORA TORA TORA. However it was cool because we got to take off in the middle of the Pearl Harbor demonstration. But since I had missed all the good stuff, I planned on leaving the show early and return the next day. As we were pulling out of the air port premises we saw quite a few firetrucks and ambulances turning in and going to the airport. I then noticed the plumes of smoke. It was not much smoke at first. It was a very very windy day so I figured that some of the fire from the pyrotechnics may have got out of hand and needed some extra help. It wasn't until about 30 minutes later where I learned the news and saw the footage. I was sick to my stomach. There was just a void feeling for the next few days that is hard to describe. Needless to say this was a tragic event that could have easily been avoided. The memories and love for those wonderful men will live on. And the legacy of those warbirds will forever fly in our hearts.
There was no good reason to have all those aircraft in the air at the same time. Such a senseless loss of life and the destruction of rare, and historically important aircraft !
many airshows do this just fine without incident, difference is the airboss had no business being said airboss. You can tell by his overly complicated radio call for what to do that is just way too long and complicated for something as fast paced as an airshow.
The photo you included on the cover, as shown in a lot of places is one of the most eerie aviation photos I have ever seen. Shown you have the co-pilot still holding on the the fuselage as his aircraft plummets to the ground. I have closely looked at this photo and I could only imagine what the crew was thinking at those last few seconds. May they ever rest in peace.
A couple of months before the event my wife and I toured the Museum and met some of the folks they we very friendly and down to Earth. God bless everyone that was affected by this tragedy.
That still chills my blood, how quickly it can all come apart, my prayers and thoughts are with the families involved, I hope this brings some closure for them. I also hope anyone running similar shows from now on has proper briefing and control over what they are doing in the future, not a place for amateurs (that's not meant to reflect on the guys running this particular event).
I had the opportunity to see the Texas Raider when it came through Pueblo, Colorado a few years ago. My dad and I have been B-17 enthusiasts for a long time, him longer than me, obviously. It was during the pandemic and he is in his 70s and not getting around like he used to, but we drove out to the airport to see the plane. It was a great experience. We the plane take off and land, taxi around, fly around town all week, etc. We got to meet some of the crew that was lost in the accident later on; they were all gentleman. My biggest regret was not pulling my daughter out of school to see the plane. I thought, "oh, there will be other times." I guess you gotta do things when you can because you never know what will happen later. It sounds trite, but this incident really hammered it home. I was gutted when this accident occurred for so many reasons. I don't usually share stuff like this in this kind of forum, but after reading so many other remembrances in the comments, it felt appropriate this time.
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings" My deepest respects to the fallen from an Air Force vet. High Flight gentlemen.
Although there are many others, some far worse, this crash was one of the most horrific close up graphics scenes in aviation disasters and truly triggered my empathy for those aviators. No re-dos for ignorant and totally avoidable fatalities.
The problem is more systemic to the historical/reenactor community than just this one air boss. There's a strong and ingrained almost institutional-level of self-assuredness and confidence bordering on arrogance. These are groups of guys who are for the most part quite old and rooted in their ways. They see themselves as special, they're custodians of history and they're doing the Lord's work and those who call them out are attacking history. With few exceptions if you went to a group of these guys you could hear them speaking with an air of "my word is final because I am knowledgeable". These are the kinds of guys that will always, if the conversation involves airplane history, say at some point "well actually..." and go on a lecture about whatever they feel they are subject matter experts on and will dismiss other views other than their own. Oftentimes, they are indeed very knowledgeable on the history of air power and aircraft, sometimes impressively so. But, they extend that confidence of knowledge to all relevant matters even if they are stunningly ill-informed, and often that extends to actually safely operating their aircraft. This wouldn't be an issue within other groups or activities but where it becomes an issue is that groups like these commemorative air forces have had and continue to have little to no oversight that calls them out on their bulls**t and so they continue along, getting worse and worse as their established rank and file often drive away new blood who are in fact properly qualified on how to safely operate aircraft and so you get into a repeating cycle of nepotism within their ranks as bad habits become practically policy. I have spoken to several aviation industry professionals who I game with, and they universally stated that this sort of disaster was inevitable, and it is surprising that it has not happened before, based on their interactions with this group of pilots and others like them.
sadly there have been many crashes at these airshows, quite a few of them involved CAF B17s back when they were still known as the Confederate Air Force. Problem is it seems that the CAF loves putting elderly former pilots behind the stick because they flew said planes when they were new and that is just something you really dont do not when those said pilots are well past retirement age.
They’re a bunch of cowboys, and anyone who is critical of their decisions is shouted down. “How many B-17s have you flown? What warbirds do you own? Be quiet!” It’s toxic and pathetic. I tell you what: I don’t own a B-17, but I’m smart enough to know that that they shouldn’t be swooping around at low altitude in tight corridors with fighters that can go twice as fast. It’s not rocket science. Stop being stupid and we will stop being critical. If you really want to rile up these clowns, bring up the Kee Bird and what happened to it. It’s the definition of extreme negligence, and the Colling’s B-17 crash wasn’t any better.
I was involved for a very short amount of time about 20 years ago with a "commemorative" group. I am a mechanic and they needed mechanics for their aircraft. In fact, they only had like 3 and that included me. Many of their aircraft needed work so I figured I could volunteer a bit and help out. I started out doing little things and it worked out great until they asked me to sign something off that wasn't good. They told me what to do, I pulled out the manual, did my check and determined that it was out of limits. By a lot. I went back and told the lead guy what they asked me to do was bad and I couldn't sign it off. And he got mad at me. Said it was good and I should sign it off. Now this wasn't just a small dent in the wing or something minor. It was a free play check on a geared component that was critical to the safety of flight for this aircraft. I'm leaving this as vague as I can so as to not identify a specific group. I said, if it's good, go sign it off then and he said he couldn't because he wasn't licensed. And I responded, and yet you want to put my license in jeopardy because it's cheaper for you guys. Indeed, this would have been VERY expensive to replace and likely this group wouldn't have been able to so the aircraft would then become junk and used for spare parts. I saw that this was not a good place for me to be and left. never went back and I never heard another word about this place. Look, I know they want to fly these old aircraft, but once they reach their service life limit you can't just squeeze out a few more flights. I later ended up working with a guy who was a pilot for this group for quite a while and he said they couldn't keep mechanics because they did this to everyone that volunteered and ended up driving them out. I should have reported them to the FAA but I was only about 3 years into being a mechanic and didn't;'t really know any better. If that happened now, I for sure would have reported them.
I remember standing there and seeing it happen. It was surreal. There was this calm music playing as I looked at the flames in the distance and the PA made announcements to not panic. Eventually they told us all to leave. It was an interesting drive home.
Summary: Putting a lot of airplanes flying over an airstrip is dangerous. Why not have them take off from another airfield, make a formation and fly over, even more than once. Why maneuver over the airport separately.
I saw both Aircraft at a Hondo Tx fly in.I did the tour of the inside of The B17 and the King Cobra was the highlight of the show.Heart breaking to say the least.
Trajedy for sure. Several factors. I think with this particular air boss, pilots had to rely on dead reckoning more then instructions. Also the P-63 in the left bank had the B-17 mostly in it's blind spot. Then with low elevations the camo colored B-17 was blending too much with the trees. Which made the job of the air boss an even bigger priority. Granted, a lot of these old planes relied upon dead-reckoning when in service. They tend to lack the modern glass-cockpit of modern aircraft, unless added as a refit. But as I recall, they try to keep these aircraft in a mint condition. I heard that the planning meeting before the show didn't really take place. Might have been several shows in the past that went like this, and it was only luck this hadn't happened before.
We actually knew all of this within about a week of the crash. I don’t know why NTSB had to take two years to release a report. Their recommendations? Don’t direct airplanes to cross traffic and crash into one another.
The NTSB and other bodies released all info possible right away, so the public was informed early on, and everyone was scrutinizing airshows automatically afterward. *It takes two years for the **_official_** report because the NTSB has a backlog of 1,200 active investigations, done with only about 450 staff because they weed out the dummies, and because they don't cut corners like other countries' safety boards. It's a miracle that they can get investigations out within two years at all.* If you're going to blame any party for being slow, blame the FAA
They have to be 100% sure. Interview everyone. Go through all the transcripts. Check all the debris. There can be no questions left about the cause. As observers. We can get a pretty decent idea of a cause via speculation. But the NTSB cannot be speculative. They have to be 100% accurate. 2 years is enough time to get to that
One of the most idiotic crashes ever. I just don’t understand how stupid people can be. Why would all these pilots trust some dude yapping directions to avoid death? There’s so much that can go wrong. There should have been way more safeguards in place.
@@streettrialsandstuff So stay away from airshows. And please, don't go outside to drive a car or a bike, because most of the traffic accidents are stupid too.
@@fate3071 - No difference. People undergo training to drive both in class and behind the wheel. People need to plan - How long will my drive take? Which route is best? How much time will I need? Do I have enough fuel? What are the weather conditions? Instead you have people just getting into their cars, driving fast because they're running late, into traffic and bad weather, then driving recklessly because they missed their turn. Driving is piloting a car. If you want to turn your brain off and just ride, get an Uber. There's more people dying in car crashes than airplane crashes. Very few airplane collide into each other, but car crashes happen all the time. Maybe, if people trained and planned more, the number could be reduced.
I remember this. Yes it was just a couple years ago but the memories faded a bit. Don't get old it sucks. When I heard about it my first thought was not TR. Please don't let it be them. That plane is my profile pic for my MS account. One of my favorite pieces of aviation history. I cried that day. And watching the video makes me choke up even now. 😢
The P-63 has limited visibility on the right side when the plane is turning left. Yes. I knew one of the guys who died on the B-17. This airboss was not up to par to run the show. I pray this never happens again.
Back in the early 90s, around 93 or so, they held the annual Air Show, where I lived at the time, in Topeka, Kansas at Forbes Field. One of the static displays was this B-17, Texas Raiders. For $10, you could do a walk through, which I did. I was shocked at how small the aircraft was on the inside. I also remember all the cables running everywhere. That was also shocking. I'm not talking a few, but rather, a lot of cables. I even bought a Texas Raiders keychain for a few dollars and signed the guest book. It's very sad that these men lost their lives firstly, and of course, the loss of the B-17. RIP.
My family was there, it was the 1st airshow I'd been to in years, & we had our 5 yr old grandson with us, fortunately he really didn't understand the scope of this tragedy! The chilling part was the crew loaded up right in front of where we sat! A sad day!
Experienced, confident airmen. None of them were nervous, excited beginners. And none of them stopped a babbling rookie airboss? Some things are impossible to understand from the outside when the most important witnesses are dead. A preventable tragedy! R.I.P.!
ATC requires retirement at age 56, IIRC. The military at age 64. Commercial aviation at age 65. If air boss or any of the involved pilots exceeded these ages, then why would we be surprised. I am so disapointed that we sacrificed two irreplaceable historical artifacts to vanity and pride.
This wasn't an age related accident. This was an overly arrogant, micro-managing, under competent airboss who shortchanhed pilot briefs and demanded that pilots follow his directions unquestioningly as he changed things on the fly. If he was half as good as he THINKS he is, he'd be twice as good as is ACTUALLY is. And his attitude towards people questioning things during briefings was to get angry. Note that I've had disagreements with airbosses at shows where I didn't think he properly understood my safety limits (I'm with a parachute demonstration team), and I've flat out told aircrew *in flight* that unbriefed changes that occurred in flight were a NO GO and we'd scrub if things didn't get fixed right *now* (got it mitigated, and talked to the airboss on the ground, and got him to understand that I don't care *who* it is - if they're flying in the airspace I'm exiting jumpers into, they need to be in the sidebar the jump team has with the jump pilots, so they understand *my* No Fly Zone on jump run... the next went flawlessly.) *If you can't have those kind of discussions with the airboss and other performers you'll be sharing airspace with, you need to scrub, and be clear you are scrubbing for inadequate safety.* And it isn't about egos at that point - it's about maintaining minimal safety. (But, unfortunately, *everyone* in this community is, by definition, a Type A "Can Do" personality. Nor do I exempt myself from that label - it is *very* difficult to be the first one to say, "We shouldn't do this, because it isn't safe to do it this way.") He also (as the audio snips reveal) talks too damned much on the mike. If you ever have to take a breath mid-transmission, you've already spoken twice as long as you should. Nor did he provide any altitude deconfliction, either in the preflight pilot's brief nor when he was "shooting from the hip" trying to direct the aerial ballet on the fly. 500 foot altitude separation would have looked just as cool, and yet would have entirely prevented the mishap. And what the video didn't go over was the airboss (not just the pilots) was task saturated. He had a "warbird ridealong" flight he was trying to mocromanage at the same time as the aerial display was going through its most dangerous manuever. *Absolute NO GO* - the paid ridealong flights need to be launched and recovered when you aren't paying having to direct the aerial performers.
Thank-you for a very good presentation of the facts of the incident. Curt Rowe was a very good friend and his loss was a senseless tradgedy. I hope the CAF will make the necessary changes to prevent another disaster as this. As a pilot and CFI I would have been at a loss to understand what the airbos was directing.
June 18, 2022 at the Midsouth Airshow, I got to touch history. I have so many pictures of this plane both outside and under the bomb bay. It’s hard to believe that just in a hand full of months the Texas Raiders crew would meet that terrible fate. Blue skies and tailwinds.
Makes one wonder how the young men of the 8th Air Force marshalled up hundreds of B-17s and 24s over the skies of England for any given mission, without air to air collisions.
Only the barest on the "pilot debrief" channel. He also shouldnt have allowed, or commanded, the pilots to move onto their show lines without receiving confirmation to his question that they had a visual or separation on one another, he never received it & still said to move onto their show lines.
I worked for the company that was in the hangar where the video was taken from. I had quit a week before the airshow, had I not I would have had a front row seat for this. Glad i missed it.
I really can't believe that he thought making it up on the go was legitimate for something this dangerous. I am not in this business nor do I have any experience with this, but I would 100% expect the show to be pre-planned and practiced with clarity before even getting into the sky as to what each party is doing.
Curious, during WWII. How did they do this day-in day-out without incident. Or at least there's not a lot of documentary during WWII of mid air collision.
I was taxing out at my home airport at KOLV back in June 2022. The Texas Raiders B17 landed to refuel. I got a lot of pictures of it. So tragic for everyone involved.
That was a terrible loss of lives. I met these guys and toured the Texas Raiders in Cullman Alabama a few days before this had happened so it was a shock. 😢
Hi. For your information this particular B17 aircraft as been delivered on 16 July 1945. So, didn't flew bombing missions. T'was used by US Navy for maritime patrols and then AWACS and electronical Airborne.
I had no clue this had happened when I rode on a B-17 last year. As it wasn't an airshow, I wasn't concerned. I only learned about this after looking up airworthy B-17's post-landing.
@zchris87v80 the C-47 flew so smooth that after we were above the treeline, I stopped worrying. I also had a film crew on the plane with me, so I had loads of things to distract me. The other person with me was an old C-47 pilot from I think the Korean war. Awesome guy.
@@SimonTekConley every time I fly out of charlotte, I always spot that C-47 carcass below. It's not on my short list (B29 fifi next, then B24 because my great-uncle was a pilot, and B25 because I grew up in columbia SC and on lake murray where the doolittle raiders practiced bombing), but any of these old warbirds are amazing to fly on. Even got to meet several of the surviving raiders at their reunion right by my house in the early 2000's, and got to peer inside "Skunkie", a restored B25 when she was stored at the curtiss-wright hangar. My flight was at a county airport south of charlotte, so hardly any treeline to worry about. I was hardly concerned and even joked with people that my flight was delayed 5 hours because it was a Boeing. I wasn't as remotely concerned as I would be about a modern 737 having engine issues 30,000 feet off the ground.
@zchris87v80 i was at muskegon, MI, the Michigan warbirds group has a bunch of planes they bring out that people can buy tickets to ride on. At the moment, I work at WPAFB, you must go to that museum, it's free and amazing
When the P-63 was told to make that right turn, his plane was at a medium left bank, where the pilot can't see anything to his right due to the angle of attack the plane was in on that turn . The pilot couldn't see the B-17 ahead of him . This is why the blame on this went to the airboss for making that change . Yet, agree, the pilot of the P-63 should have known that left hand turns will blind his right side vision and questioned the airboss - like a major blind spot occurring .
If Craig Hutain had been looking in his fighter plain he would have seen the B17. No way is this entirely the fault of the air boss. Hutain is as much responsible.
Doing a simulated bomber/fighter battle using priceless vintage aircraft is daft beyond belief. Absolutely insane. Never EVER should have happened. Stupidity can kill.
Once I learned flying my airforce instructor yelled: Look around! above, behind , left, right, below, everywhere! The enemy can come from all directions! You are nosing too much in the cockpit! He was right. His lessons granted me 55 years accidentless flying as PIC.
To explain this tragedy to the masses . Airboss was texting while driving & that happens often to you , doesn't it . ? Glad to help with a logical explanation .
With the advancement of simulation software, I wonder if they can actually plan out a show with a computer and let pilots see from their pov in screen before they actually get in the air. Making up a show last minute as it goes is a recipe for disaster.
It was something that should have NEVER happened. Fly the planes single file, those aren't war ace pilots. All that flying is tight formations is what got them killed and also 2 vintage war planes.
Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen with the air boss incharge but yet why didn't any of the pilots bring up concerns and to the very poor directions from the air boss.
The sad thing is that when I heard the news, I was not at all surprised. I had only been telling my son about the competence of the CAF the previous day.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Based on accounts from folks in the historic aircraft community, the airboss was a "nepobaby" that had no business running an airshow. He became the airboss because his father had been an airboss for many years. From my understanding, he was a poor planner that preferred to make things up as the show progressed. His father has a similar style and a copy of a copy is not as sharp as the original. As called out, the guy was a poor communicator. His instructions were long winded and often unclear. Preshow briefings were equally confusing with folks unclear on who does what and when. Finally, the airboss was, to put it kindly, a winking brown hole. The guy was said to have a big head and thought himself as the "smartest guy in the room."
That's all true from what I've read but it's important to note that it takes two to tango. Despite the pilots and participants later saying that throughout all the preflight briefings and practices, there were a litany of red flags that gave them major pause including clearly unsafe procedures, confusing language and communication issues, last minute changes, etc. not one spoke up about any of it, nor did anyone suggest, ask for or insist on any changes or modifications. All pilots should understand how critical CRM is and the fact that nobody said a word - not to the air boss, not to the FAA rep, not to the show management, or even to each other - means the blame doesn't all fall on the air boss.
Accidents are always a chain of events and there is never a singular person responsible. This should be a good reminder that everyone is responsible for safety and it is everyone's responsibility to speak up when they see a safety issue. There will always be cowboys and aholes, but if everyone is doing their part properly, they will either be corrected or filtered out before something tragic happens
@@GlutenEruption My thoughts exactly. If there is a problem involving operations and safety you cannot just let it slide.
@@CaffeineGeek I understand that the qualifications for being an air boss are pretty thin. Maybe air bosses should have to be air traffic controllers?
@@guategringo I think the issue is that while there is certainly overlap, they are two very different and distinct skill sets. ATC is directing orderly, widely spaced traffic in established airspace's with extensive electronic safety aids, purely to ensure separation and to get them to their destination, whereas air bosses are directing extremely high density fast paced traffic through planned complex choreography, intentionally keeping them as CLOSE as possible to each other and to the crowd while still maintaining proper specified and safe separation, all by eye with no screen or electronic aids, managing not only spacing but timing and deconfliction of different show lines, different aircraft performance profiles, etc to make sure they're in proper position and formation for the choreography when they reach the show line. It's like nascar vs F1 drivers. They're both ultimately doing the same sort of think at a high level but they are also very different environments, they each require a different type of training, skill and style, and being great at one does not necessarily mean you'll be good at the other. If that makes sense
this is a cop channel--wtf are you people talking about??
I really appreciate that this young creator read the names of the lost airmen at the end of the video.
Why?
@@TheLukaszpg to show you the dam weight of lossing such good bad ass, lukapig
@@TheLukaszpg A Memoriam for Honor and Respect!
I appreciate him.
I'm so sick of AI trash video content creator with pointless video rolls that have nothing to do with the actual event.
Sure hope that "air boss" is no longer involved in air shows. I've heard he is known to fly by the seat of his. Absolutely no pun intended. Apparently his father was the same when he was an air boss.
Both should be nowhere near airshows, both incompetent.
So how can the shadow of a known bad actor be allowed to repeat reckless behavior …. something’s really wrong here with “ their community.”
@@MrHowlor5 Could caving to political correctness, woke ideology and DEI initiatives have anything to do with it? Under massive political pressure from the left, the old CAF was forced to change it's name so as not to 'offend' the easily offended ... and here we are.
I always wanted to fly on the Texas Raiders. My wife had been researching getting me a ticket when she suddenly and unexpectedly died in her sleep at the young age of 29.
The day of her funeral, as I was standing over her casket being lowered into the ground, I looked up and saw the TR flying in the distance, out of their usual spot at Red Bird Airport (now known as Dallas Executive).
Sounds nerdy, but I always kinda considered it to be a sign from her or something.
Anyways, when this crashed happened, that moment at the graveside was all I could think about for days.
My condolences.
It was no accident. Your wife showed her love for you.
Wow that's a tuff one. I think it was a sign. Carry on . She's watching over you.
Not nerdy at all. A beautiful story.
Truly a sign. My wife was dying and she said not to look for anyone, I will send you someone. She did and I found her in December 2015. She even reads books just like my wife did. Beginning, end, and back where she left off.
If you want to stop having mid-air collisions at air shows, stop running planes in the air with intersection flight paths at the same time. Regardless of the shitty air boss, there’s absolutely no need for taking these chances just for the excitement of a few spectators.
Why don't you go on and step off that high horse of yours Mr. Keyboard Expert.
The whole point of airshows like that is to simulate history. That'd be like telling WW2 re-enactors to stop using guns for their scenarios because blank rounds might be able to kill.
While it is never the cause of one sole factor for such incidents, having an incompetent "airboss" who is not even a qualified air controller muddy communication like that is a huge risk. If you have a trained controller calling the shots to professional pilots you'd likely avoid such a problem.
I agree, and especially with WWII era aircraft!
accidents will still happen no matter how careful everyone is. the 1 true way to avoid this happening again, is to just stop playing with relics. put them in a museum in pristine condition. where they're flight ready, but take out their fuel. take out their oil. take out their hydraulic fluid. take out their batteries. and disconnect the power line to each starter motor for each engine. then never touch it again other than to keep it clean. it's sad. but everyone will regret it when there's no more left to look at. like that crew that went into the tundra to recover a crash landed b29 from the snow. and then it burned down on takeoff. the idiots. "we gotta fly it home on its own power!" no. should've taken it apart and shipped it to a musuem to be put back to pristine condition there and never touched again. i'm telling you guys. stop playing with relics. every one of them lost is a whopping 10 to 25% lost in the remaining existing number of them in the world. if this keeps up, there will be 1 left of all of them in the world, and some dumbass will still keep flying all of them until one by one they all go extinct. stop. playing. with. relics.
@@Subreon thats the stupidest take so far there are already these same models in museums that arent airworthy but look just fine to be kept in a museum
@@simply_eli01you call out one person for being on their keyboard yet you yourself sound much more like a keyboard warrior. The OP sited a concern that has been prevalent in airshow mishaps that have not only cost pilots their lives but people on the ground.
Get back to mom’s basement pal.
I'm a commercial Instrument Pilot and a previous Air Traffic Controller. I have the sad experience of witnessing 2 mid-air collisions, one as a controller (pilot error) and the other at a small uncontrolled airport air show. I can still see clearly both events in my mind. Very sad to see this one, especially with the loss of life and two historic aircraft. RIP.
The biggest failure is to have fast fighters crossing in front/behind slower moving bombers without adequate vertical separations. Have a clear plan, stick to it , safety must be the primary concern.
True enough, but the single-most worst thing that he did was approve the movement when he HAD NOT confirmed that both pilots had a visual on each other & he went right ahead & told them to move to their lines. It was an appalling idea from the outset that he had no consistent deconfliction throughout, as he had room to utilize height as well as he shouldn't have had the bombers on the outside track in the first place resulting in a cross-over. But even with that, they had a rule that no change of line would occur without pilot confirmation, he never received it & still gave the command to move to their next line, a line that had them crossing over the others path with no real height separation. It really is shocking & 100% preventable with common-sense, let alone care. R.I.P to the pilots & crew.
@@evryhndlestakn Put that down to Air Boss hubris, acting way outside his competence and capacity.
@johnstirling6597 100% agree. Pilot debrief did a fair analysis of it also. Other than the reason that you gave , its inconceivable why he would set up a circuit that has the aircraft crossing the same point in space & then he ignores the slightest of safety backstops that he, himself, put in place.
He couldn't have lined up the swiss cheese better if he had tried. Appalling. I believe that they don't require any sort of license to be an air boss, though I may be wrong about that.
Thank you for detailing this horrible event in an easy to understand way. I also appreciate your honoring of the pilots at the end.
A bunch of "Good 'ol boys" at the to let one their own appoint his nitwit son as airboss. They also as a group completely failed to plan correct separation and movement patterns, then brief them thoroughly. I consider that unforgivable.
I agree. I don't mean to pick on them, but I remember them back when they weree still called the Confederate Air Force!! I saw them perform back in the nineties, but they used less planes.
This made me think about how often this must have happened during combat where planes crashed into friendlys because of the chaos of battle etc.
The air boss was Russell Royce. No anonymity for criminals.
Thanks! The families of the victims are suing him and the Commemorative Air Force.
He is not any criminal. He did not fly his aircraft into someone else's. Or do you blame whiskey brewers for crimes committed by someone else after drinking whiskey?
@@MrChopsticktechThose families should point the blame to the pilot who rammed his aircraft to the other! But then, Americans love to blame coffee brewers for burns after they spill coffee themselves on their own skin. No own responsibility for one's own actions.
@@odiloglobochnik2259 this happened due to his planning, (lack of) prep, and (abysmal) command of the aircraft for the show.
@@odiloglobochnik2259 He is absolutely a criminal. He created a situation where a fatal accident was inevitable. Involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, reckless endangerment. Take your pick.
The airboss has primary fault but... all the pilots should have known that his planning was ludicrously unsafe and none of them spoke up. That's a wild level of complacency.
I was thinking the same thing. Like, looking at that plan in the briefing no one thought that the formations crossing each other's lines was a bad plan? Air boss may have been primary cause, but there were a lot of people who could have pumped the brakes. Either way, huge shame, hope it leads to lessons learned.
The airboss established a culture of kicking out pilots who raised concerns
.. truly .. and HOPEFULLY any pilots flying future airshows will DEMAND a meticulously high level of clarity and flight safety in briefings .. no RUSHING
So their own weakness and greed to fly killed themselves and others. Everyone in the briefing was guilty including the dead pilots. @ShaunHensley
@ It’s a shame how ignorant people are now given a voice in society
This is so sad and such a waste of life for these people who just wanted to entertain the crowd doing something that they all loved, flying and preserving the memories of the many who flew before them. I must admit I shed a tear or two watching this terrible incident unfold, so sad...
Take care and stay safe everyone,
Joe
Very well done. This took some effort. I’ve been following this since it happened. The extended audio told the story. It was a huge loss of people and planes.
I once read that as many as HALF of all aircrew deaths in WWII were accidents. Either on take offs or landings and many mid air collisions and other mishaps. You can't have so many planes in a small airspace and not have accidents.
I'd love to see a source for that.
@@prinzalbatross9526 . Way back in the 90's. No idea where they got the info.
@@donprice9050 To check for myself i looked at the final report of battle and non-battle deaths for WW2. 60% of officers and 55% of enlisted in the Air Corps are reported as dying in battle. 35% of officers and 23% enlisted in the Air Corps are listed as dying in accidents involving aircraft.
@@prinzalbatross9526 That's still a lot! My mothers partner was in the RCAF late in the war. He crashed taking off on his first mission. He was drunk! That was the end of his war.
@@prinzalbatross9526 It's in the National Archives. We actually lost more 'aircraft' to accidents than combat.
Just listening to that snippet you can tell that airboss was in way over his head. He should have been held criminally and financially accountable.
I was in a T-28 at an airshow in San Marcos, TX, with the same Airboss. His in-flight instructions at times were extremely confusing, and the pattern we had to fly was unnecessarily complicated, leading us to lose visual identification of the other aircraft at times. I complained to him politely afterwards, but was blown off, because I didn’t have the “experience” that he had. I would ascribe 0% of the blame to the P-63 pilot in this tragic accident.
The Air Boss should've been brought up on charges of negligent homicide x 6. Whoever approved him as Air Boss should be charged as an accessory.
Not gonna happen chum . The airboss was sloppy and the P63 pilot was worse . See and be seen is priority in a circuit .
P63 killed all of them
@@duncandmcgrath6290As directed by the Airboss, fly up to the B-17? With no difference in height, total incompetence by both.
@@duncandmcgrath6290 Weird that you blame the P-63 pilot when there are several videos out already explaining how it would be difficult if not impossible for him to have spotted the B-17. He was the third in a formation of three fighters, his focus would have been on his leading aircraft and hist instruments, not looking all around for other aircraft, that just wouldn't have been his job and would have been the least of his concerns. Wild that you blame him for not further dividing his attention to do the job of the airboss, which was airspace deconfliction.
@@duncandmcgrath6290You’re an idiot. The P63 was given instructions that put the bomber under his belly
@@duncandmcgrath6290 Are you the airboss and are you related to Alex Baldwin?
Nice to see you back
Normally a disaster like these reflects the swiss cheese model, meaning a lot of things had to go wrong. But not in this case, this was sorely on the airboss. Terrible. May they rest in peace.
Old guys who think they're Blue Angels. An air boss who isn't a boss. What could go wrong? Damn lucky the crowd didn't have a hands-on experience.
Agreed. I went to a few air shows over the years, but will never go again. The last one closeset to where I live had a fatal crash during practice flights.
I would recognize that voice anywhere!
Great investigation and great to have you back!
(Marry Christmas and soon Happy New Year!)
Marry Christmas
I was there that day. Luckily I did not witness the crash. My wife had surprised me with tickets to take a ride in FiFi the B-29. We got there super early as we were to be the first ride of the day. Unfortunately there were delays in maintenance as one of the engines needed to have a part replaced. It took a few hours and we were on stand by in a hanger. This delay caused me to miss demonstrations of fighters and TORA TORA TORA. However it was cool because we got to take off in the middle of the Pearl Harbor demonstration. But since I had missed all the good stuff, I planned on leaving the show early and return the next day.
As we were pulling out of the air port premises we saw quite a few firetrucks and ambulances turning in and going to the airport. I then noticed the plumes of smoke. It was not much smoke at first. It was a very very windy day so I figured that some of the fire from the pyrotechnics may have got out of hand and needed some extra help. It wasn't until about 30 minutes later where I learned the news and saw the footage.
I was sick to my stomach. There was just a void feeling for the next few days that is hard to describe.
Needless to say this was a tragic event that could have easily been avoided. The memories and love for those wonderful men will live on. And the legacy of those warbirds will forever fly in our hearts.
There was no good reason to have all those aircraft in the air at the same time. Such a senseless loss of life and the destruction of rare, and historically important aircraft !
many airshows do this just fine without incident, difference is the airboss had no business being said airboss. You can tell by his overly complicated radio call for what to do that is just way too long and complicated for something as fast paced as an airshow.
The photo you included on the cover, as shown in a lot of places is one of the most eerie aviation photos I have ever seen. Shown you have the co-pilot still holding on the the fuselage as his aircraft plummets to the ground. I have closely looked at this photo and I could only imagine what the crew was thinking at those last few seconds. May they ever rest in peace.
A couple of months before the event my wife and I toured the Museum and met some of the folks they we very friendly and down to Earth. God bless everyone that was affected by this tragedy.
how can there be no standard phraseology for something as carefully orchestrated as an air-show??
That still chills my blood, how quickly it can all come apart, my prayers and thoughts are with the families involved, I hope this brings some closure for them. I also hope anyone running similar shows from now on has proper briefing and control over what they are doing in the future, not a place for amateurs (that's not meant to reflect on the guys running this particular event).
As a Texas boy, this crash hurts my soul
As an English boy I join you in your sadness.
I had the opportunity to see the Texas Raider when it came through Pueblo, Colorado a few years ago. My dad and I have been B-17 enthusiasts for a long time, him longer than me, obviously. It was during the pandemic and he is in his 70s and not getting around like he used to, but we drove out to the airport to see the plane. It was a great experience. We the plane take off and land, taxi around, fly around town all week, etc. We got to meet some of the crew that was lost in the accident later on; they were all gentleman. My biggest regret was not pulling my daughter out of school to see the plane. I thought, "oh, there will be other times." I guess you gotta do things when you can because you never know what will happen later. It sounds trite, but this incident really hammered it home. I was gutted when this accident occurred for so many reasons. I don't usually share stuff like this in this kind of forum, but after reading so many other remembrances in the comments, it felt appropriate this time.
When one human is the only barrier against disaster, then that disaster is only a matter of time.
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings"
My deepest respects to the fallen from an Air Force vet. High Flight gentlemen.
Although there are many others, some far worse, this crash was one of the most horrific close up graphics scenes in aviation disasters and truly triggered my empathy for those aviators. No re-dos for ignorant and totally avoidable fatalities.
A well presented video with excellent static graphics. Very good. Thanks.
The problem is more systemic to the historical/reenactor community than just this one air boss. There's a strong and ingrained almost institutional-level of self-assuredness and confidence bordering on arrogance. These are groups of guys who are for the most part quite old and rooted in their ways. They see themselves as special, they're custodians of history and they're doing the Lord's work and those who call them out are attacking history. With few exceptions if you went to a group of these guys you could hear them speaking with an air of "my word is final because I am knowledgeable". These are the kinds of guys that will always, if the conversation involves airplane history, say at some point "well actually..." and go on a lecture about whatever they feel they are subject matter experts on and will dismiss other views other than their own. Oftentimes, they are indeed very knowledgeable on the history of air power and aircraft, sometimes impressively so. But, they extend that confidence of knowledge to all relevant matters even if they are stunningly ill-informed, and often that extends to actually safely operating their aircraft.
This wouldn't be an issue within other groups or activities but where it becomes an issue is that groups like these commemorative air forces have had and continue to have little to no oversight that calls them out on their bulls**t and so they continue along, getting worse and worse as their established rank and file often drive away new blood who are in fact properly qualified on how to safely operate aircraft and so you get into a repeating cycle of nepotism within their ranks as bad habits become practically policy.
I have spoken to several aviation industry professionals who I game with, and they universally stated that this sort of disaster was inevitable, and it is surprising that it has not happened before, based on their interactions with this group of pilots and others like them.
sadly there have been many crashes at these airshows, quite a few of them involved CAF B17s back when they were still known as the Confederate Air Force. Problem is it seems that the CAF loves putting elderly former pilots behind the stick because they flew said planes when they were new and that is just something you really dont do not when those said pilots are well past retirement age.
They’re a bunch of cowboys, and anyone who is critical of their decisions is shouted down. “How many B-17s have you flown? What warbirds do you own? Be quiet!” It’s toxic and pathetic.
I tell you what: I don’t own a B-17, but I’m smart enough to know that that they shouldn’t be swooping around at low altitude in tight corridors with fighters that can go twice as fast. It’s not rocket science. Stop being stupid and we will stop being critical.
If you really want to rile up these clowns, bring up the Kee Bird and what happened to it. It’s the definition of extreme negligence, and the Colling’s B-17 crash wasn’t any better.
I was involved for a very short amount of time about 20 years ago with a "commemorative" group. I am a mechanic and they needed mechanics for their aircraft. In fact, they only had like 3 and that included me. Many of their aircraft needed work so I figured I could volunteer a bit and help out. I started out doing little things and it worked out great until they asked me to sign something off that wasn't good. They told me what to do, I pulled out the manual, did my check and determined that it was out of limits. By a lot. I went back and told the lead guy what they asked me to do was bad and I couldn't sign it off. And he got mad at me. Said it was good and I should sign it off. Now this wasn't just a small dent in the wing or something minor. It was a free play check on a geared component that was critical to the safety of flight for this aircraft. I'm leaving this as vague as I can so as to not identify a specific group. I said, if it's good, go sign it off then and he said he couldn't because he wasn't licensed. And I responded, and yet you want to put my license in jeopardy because it's cheaper for you guys. Indeed, this would have been VERY expensive to replace and likely this group wouldn't have been able to so the aircraft would then become junk and used for spare parts. I saw that this was not a good place for me to be and left. never went back and I never heard another word about this place. Look, I know they want to fly these old aircraft, but once they reach their service life limit you can't just squeeze out a few more flights. I later ended up working with a guy who was a pilot for this group for quite a while and he said they couldn't keep mechanics because they did this to everyone that volunteered and ended up driving them out. I should have reported them to the FAA but I was only about 3 years into being a mechanic and didn't;'t really know any better. If that happened now, I for sure would have reported them.
I remember standing there and seeing it happen. It was surreal. There was this calm music playing as I looked at the flames in the distance and the PA made announcements to not panic. Eventually they told us all to leave. It was an interesting drive home.
Godspeed gentlemen, may you have smooth skies for your final flight home.
Sad day. Not only for loss of life but loss of a vintage war bird.😢
This airboss sucked at his job, and frankly has blood on his hands.
Summary: Putting a lot of airplanes flying over an airstrip is dangerous. Why not have them take off from another airfield, make a formation and fly over, even more than once. Why maneuver over the airport separately.
I saw both Aircraft at a Hondo Tx fly in.I did the tour of the inside of The B17 and the King Cobra was the highlight of the show.Heart breaking to say the least.
Trajedy for sure. Several factors. I think with this particular air boss, pilots had to rely on dead reckoning more then instructions. Also the P-63 in the left bank had the B-17 mostly in it's blind spot. Then with low elevations the camo colored B-17 was blending too much with the trees. Which made the job of the air boss an even bigger priority. Granted, a lot of these old planes relied upon dead-reckoning when in service. They tend to lack the modern glass-cockpit of modern aircraft, unless added as a refit. But as I recall, they try to keep these aircraft in a mint condition. I heard that the planning meeting before the show didn't really take place. Might have been several shows in the past that went like this, and it was only luck this hadn't happened before.
Can yoou do a video like this on the Ramstien Flugtagg 88 Airshow disaster please?
Ramstein
@Randomly_Browsing yes..a typo on my part.oops
Yep, Ramstein 88 is a classic.
And I was there. It was every year the highlight of german airshows. Until 88...
@MisterIvyMike yes....i heard Flugtagg was always a great show until 88.
@@Damien-q8t Flugtag.
I feel bad for the families of the B-17 crew members. The P-63 pilot was a 83' Continental SCAB
This was gut wrenching when I saw that clip of the collision on the news. 💔😭🙏🇺🇸
One person should never be responsible for so many events/actions at the same time! Shocking no one at the event thought of that...
We actually knew all of this within about a week of the crash. I don’t know why NTSB had to take two years to release a report. Their recommendations? Don’t direct airplanes to cross traffic and crash into one another.
You thought you knew. Now they really know.
Exactly.
The NTSB and other bodies released all info possible right away, so the public was informed early on, and everyone was scrutinizing airshows automatically afterward. *It takes two years for the **_official_** report because the NTSB has a backlog of 1,200 active investigations, done with only about 450 staff because they weed out the dummies, and because they don't cut corners like other countries' safety boards. It's a miracle that they can get investigations out within two years at all.* If you're going to blame any party for being slow, blame the FAA
@ well - after 2 years NTSB repeated verbatim exactly what we knew 2 years ago. Zero new information
They have to be 100% sure. Interview everyone. Go through all the transcripts. Check all the debris. There can be no questions left about the cause.
As observers. We can get a pretty decent idea of a cause via speculation. But the NTSB cannot be speculative. They have to be 100% accurate. 2 years is enough time to get to that
One of the most idiotic crashes ever. I just don’t understand how stupid people can be. Why would all these pilots trust some dude yapping directions to avoid death? There’s so much that can go wrong. There should have been way more safeguards in place.
Airshow accidents are always stupid. They never learn.
@@streettrialsandstuff
So stay away from airshows.
And please, don't go outside to drive a car or a bike, because most of the traffic accidents are stupid too.
@@MisterIvyMikeyour comment is beyond stupid. 🙄
@MisterIvyMike the difference between airshow and general traffic is the airshow are supposed to undergo training and planning
@@fate3071 - No difference. People undergo training to drive both in class and behind the wheel. People need to plan - How long will my drive take? Which route is best? How much time will I need? Do I have enough fuel? What are the weather conditions? Instead you have people just getting into their cars, driving fast because they're running late, into traffic and bad weather, then driving recklessly because they missed their turn. Driving is piloting a car. If you want to turn your brain off and just ride, get an Uber. There's more people dying in car crashes than airplane crashes. Very few airplane collide into each other, but car crashes happen all the time. Maybe, if people trained and planned more, the number could be reduced.
Once again a reminder of the dangers of aviation. We are all vulnerable.
I remember this. Yes it was just a couple years ago but the memories faded a bit. Don't get old it sucks.
When I heard about it my first thought was not TR. Please don't let it be them. That plane is my profile pic for my MS account. One of my favorite pieces of aviation history. I cried that day. And watching the video makes me choke up even now. 😢
I CAN'T watch the video. I've flown combat, lost friends, and most things don't bother me in this way. But this one is too horrific to watch.
The P-63 has limited visibility on the right side when the plane is turning left. Yes. I knew one of the guys who died on the B-17. This airboss was not up to par to run the show. I pray this never happens again.
The air boss was playing the show like it was a video game.
Back in the early 90s, around 93 or so, they held the annual Air Show, where I lived at the time, in Topeka, Kansas at Forbes Field. One of the static displays was this B-17, Texas Raiders. For $10, you could do a walk through, which I did. I was shocked at how small the aircraft was on the inside. I also remember all the cables running everywhere. That was also shocking. I'm not talking a few, but rather, a lot of cables. I even bought a Texas Raiders keychain for a few dollars and signed the guest book. It's very sad that these men lost their lives firstly, and of course, the loss of the B-17. RIP.
My family was there, it was the 1st airshow I'd been to in years, & we had our 5 yr old grandson with us, fortunately he really didn't understand the scope of this tragedy! The chilling part was the crew loaded up right in front of where we sat! A sad day!
The pain in my heart still hasn't gone away....
Thank you. As an ex-professional flight engineer I appreciate the effort involved in this explanation.
Experienced, confident airmen. None of them were nervous, excited beginners. And none of them stopped a babbling rookie airboss? Some things are impossible to understand from the outside when the most important witnesses are dead. A preventable tragedy! R.I.P.!
Always amazes me in the expanse of the sky these things happen.
ATC requires retirement at age 56, IIRC. The military at age 64. Commercial aviation at age 65. If air boss or any of the involved pilots exceeded these ages, then why would we be surprised. I am so disapointed that we sacrificed two irreplaceable historical artifacts to vanity and pride.
we had like a bajillion of them and they were sacrificed to make toaster, get a grip
@@a-nus How many do we have today?
iirc?
This wasn't an age related accident. This was an overly arrogant, micro-managing, under competent airboss who shortchanhed pilot briefs and demanded that pilots follow his directions unquestioningly as he changed things on the fly. If he was half as good as he THINKS he is, he'd be twice as good as is ACTUALLY is.
And his attitude towards people questioning things during briefings was to get angry.
Note that I've had disagreements with airbosses at shows where I didn't think he properly understood my safety limits (I'm with a parachute demonstration team), and I've flat out told aircrew *in flight* that unbriefed changes that occurred in flight were a NO GO and we'd scrub if things didn't get fixed right *now* (got it mitigated, and talked to the airboss on the ground, and got him to understand that I don't care *who* it is - if they're flying in the airspace I'm exiting jumpers into, they need to be in the sidebar the jump team has with the jump pilots, so they understand *my* No Fly Zone on jump run... the next went flawlessly.) *If you can't have those kind of discussions with the airboss and other performers you'll be sharing airspace with, you need to scrub, and be clear you are scrubbing for inadequate safety.* And it isn't about egos at that point - it's about maintaining minimal safety. (But, unfortunately, *everyone* in this community is, by definition, a Type A "Can Do" personality. Nor do I exempt myself from that label - it is *very* difficult to be the first one to say, "We shouldn't do this, because it isn't safe to do it this way.")
He also (as the audio snips reveal) talks too damned much on the mike. If you ever have to take a breath mid-transmission, you've already spoken twice as long as you should.
Nor did he provide any altitude deconfliction, either in the preflight pilot's brief nor when he was "shooting from the hip" trying to direct the aerial ballet on the fly. 500 foot altitude separation would have looked just as cool, and yet would have entirely prevented the mishap.
And what the video didn't go over was the airboss (not just the pilots) was task saturated. He had a "warbird ridealong" flight he was trying to mocromanage at the same time as the aerial display was going through its most dangerous manuever. *Absolute NO GO* - the paid ridealong flights need to be launched and recovered when you aren't paying having to direct the aerial performers.
@@Capecodham If I Recall Correctly
Thank-you for a very good presentation of the facts of the incident. Curt Rowe was a very good friend and his loss was a senseless tradgedy. I hope the CAF will make the necessary changes to prevent another disaster as this. As a pilot and CFI I would have been at a loss to understand what the airbos was directing.
June 18, 2022 at the Midsouth Airshow, I got to touch history. I have so many pictures of this plane both outside and under the bomb bay. It’s hard to believe that just in a hand full of months the Texas Raiders crew would meet that terrible fate. Blue skies and tailwinds.
Makes one wonder how the young men of the 8th Air Force marshalled up hundreds of B-17s and 24s over the skies of England for any given mission, without air to air collisions.
Is there any statement from, or interview with the Airboss available anywhere?
Only the barest on the "pilot debrief" channel.
He also shouldnt have allowed, or commanded, the pilots to move onto their show lines without receiving confirmation to his question that they had a visual or separation on one another, he never received it & still said to move onto their show lines.
I worked for the company that was in the hangar where the video was taken from. I had quit a week before the airshow, had I not I would have had a front row seat for this. Glad i missed it.
Juan Brown explained what happened in this crash the day it occurred.
No he did a preliminary speculation
@@duncandmcgrath6290 Which turned out to be near 100% right.
I really can't believe that he thought making it up on the go was legitimate for something this dangerous. I am not in this business nor do I have any experience with this, but I would 100% expect the show to be pre-planned and practiced with clarity before even getting into the sky as to what each party is doing.
In the full audio you can hear some concerns with the other pilots who had the mental picture of the chaos that was happening with the pattern.
I hope the air boss never works in aviation again in any capacity.
Curious, during WWII. How did they do this day-in day-out without incident. Or at least there's not a lot of documentary during WWII of mid air collision.
Put the Air Boss in one of the planes, and see how fast safety becomes an important issue...
2:00 That's far too convoluted a set of flight plans for something not to go wrong eventually. This was a When Not If situation.
I was taxing out at my home airport at KOLV back in June 2022. The Texas Raiders B17 landed to refuel. I got a lot of pictures of it. So tragic for everyone involved.
That was a terrible loss of lives. I met these guys and toured the Texas Raiders in Cullman Alabama a few days before this had happened so it was a shock. 😢
This is just so sad. People can be replaced, but those priceless machines are gone forever.
WTF man ? I didn't know any of these people, but I would trade the entire stash of world's remaining "museum" planes for them to be alive..
Way to much going on, air boss at fault. RIP victims.
Pretty sure you can see the P63 pilot spinning through the air before hitting the tarmac. RIP. So avoidable.
Shame that an airframe could survive so many combat missions and then just blow up in such an avoidable yet spectacular way
Hi.
For your information this particular B17 aircraft as been delivered on 16 July 1945.
So, didn't flew bombing missions.
T'was used by US Navy for maritime patrols and then AWACS and electronical Airborne.
Took a ride on a c-47 in 2023, this did cross my mind when we first took off.
I had no clue this had happened when I rode on a B-17 last year. As it wasn't an airshow, I wasn't concerned. I only learned about this after looking up airworthy B-17's post-landing.
@zchris87v80 the C-47 flew so smooth that after we were above the treeline, I stopped worrying. I also had a film crew on the plane with me, so I had loads of things to distract me. The other person with me was an old C-47 pilot from I think the Korean war. Awesome guy.
@@SimonTekConley every time I fly out of charlotte, I always spot that C-47 carcass below. It's not on my short list (B29 fifi next, then B24 because my great-uncle was a pilot, and B25 because I grew up in columbia SC and on lake murray where the doolittle raiders practiced bombing), but any of these old warbirds are amazing to fly on. Even got to meet several of the surviving raiders at their reunion right by my house in the early 2000's, and got to peer inside "Skunkie", a restored B25 when she was stored at the curtiss-wright hangar.
My flight was at a county airport south of charlotte, so hardly any treeline to worry about. I was hardly concerned and even joked with people that my flight was delayed 5 hours because it was a Boeing. I wasn't as remotely concerned as I would be about a modern 737 having engine issues 30,000 feet off the ground.
@zchris87v80 i was at muskegon, MI, the Michigan warbirds group has a bunch of planes they bring out that people can buy tickets to ride on. At the moment, I work at WPAFB, you must go to that museum, it's free and amazing
When the P-63 was told to make that right turn, his plane was at a medium left bank, where the pilot can't see anything to his right due to the angle of attack the plane was in on that turn . The pilot couldn't see the B-17 ahead of him . This is why the blame on this went to the airboss for making that change . Yet, agree, the pilot of the P-63 should have known that left hand turns will blind his right side vision and questioned the airboss - like a major blind spot occurring .
If Craig Hutain had been looking in his fighter plain he would have seen the B17. No way is this entirely the fault of the air boss. Hutain is as much responsible.
I still remember the shock and disbelief when it happened
Doing a simulated bomber/fighter battle using priceless vintage aircraft is daft beyond belief. Absolutely insane. Never EVER should have happened. Stupidity can kill.
Once I learned flying my airforce instructor yelled: Look around! above, behind , left, right, below, everywhere! The enemy can come from all directions! You are nosing too much in the cockpit!
He was right. His lessons granted me 55 years accidentless flying as PIC.
Criminal airboss
It's a shame such a beautiful aircraft is gone forever :(
So sorry for the families. Such amateur way to lead an airshow. Incredible...
Fighting in a war is deadly business, pretending your fighting in a war for our enjoyment is insane, that’s way we have museums keep them there.
The number of men and planes lost during training for the war was staggering. Very many collisions.
To stop it happening again I would suggest having crew on look out from the gunnery positions.
To explain this tragedy to the masses . Airboss was texting while driving & that happens often to you , doesn't it . ? Glad to help with a logical explanation .
heard a drone hit a prop of the fighter causing the engine to lose power in the turn
As sad as it is too see history get destroyed. Its impressive to see.
With the advancement of simulation software, I wonder if they can actually plan out a show with a computer and let pilots see from their pov in screen before they actually get in the air. Making up a show last minute as it goes is a recipe for disaster.
Sadly, a classic case of: "Failing to plan is planning to fail." God bless & have mercy upon the deceased & their families.
The airboss shouldn't be a job. There needs to be proper ATC for anything airplane related, hope airboss was stripped of duties
It was something that should have NEVER happened.
Fly the planes single file, those aren't war ace pilots. All that flying is tight formations is what got them killed and also 2 vintage war planes.
Sounds like it was an accident waiting to happen with the air boss incharge but yet why didn't any of the pilots bring up concerns and to the very poor directions from the air boss.
The sad thing is that when I heard the news, I was not at all surprised. I had only been telling my son about the competence of the CAF the previous day.
^
Does the "CAF" stand for "Clown Air Force" then ?
The guy in the P.63 looks like the buffoon who caused it
It just blows my mind that there was no vertical separation between concurrent flight lines.
Sounds like the Air Boss has no business being a Air Boss