So how did those voltage bursts damage the old install? And what makes the new install more robust against it? And why use a third party EV charger and use Node-Red and Loxone to talk to them, when Victron sells their own EV chargers? After watching, I have more questions then before.
It has to do with the range of the acceptable input as well as the protection features. for example the typical grid voltage range for Victrons inverters is between 187-265 VAC for non US inverters and equipment. That gives a 10% variance for over voltage and 28% variance for low voltage. That is a very large band. for the rest of the integration.... not sure but probably has to do with node-red networking or something like that, victron communicates better locally but not really out to long distances that would apply to an RV park/camp grounds. For the EV charging, probably not using victron since their chargers I do not believe have a pay capability, only load sharing/shedding
Yeh I can’t see anyway in which high voltage could damage the panels theirselves there is too much electronics in the way of the DC - AC side plus the MOV’s would of blown first. Or should of.
@@kevxsi16v they should but it depends on how fast the surge hits. most is advertising, and also what is to say the old equipment failed from end of life causing the damage and they blame the grid.
@@MrBugsier5 there are a few cases where there are farmland that is deemed an archaeological place or something where you can’t dig a table in where they had to keep overhead line. I think it’s only 1 mile but they even have very recently or are working a long route around it, but it is technically not the permanent solution so it isn’t deemed as being on pes technically.
At around 2:00, you show above ground transformers and cables... we don't have such thing in the Netherlands. Everything is below ground, unlike in the US.
There are actually some cases where it is overhead, but they are very very specialist cases where there are things underground that cannot be disturbed
@UKsystems No, there not, We do not have low voltage power cables above ground anymore, There are a few farms in the middle of the coutry that stil have above ground low voltage feed of 3x 230 vac. But all of our h voltage distributu=ion below 50000 volts are underground, That makes a verry rugged system, Only the very high transport lines are above ground in huge masts, All other power feeds are below ground, We dont have pole transformers any more.
@@astrogerard there are some but it’s very minimal and they are being replaced actively but in some rural areas it is very very hard to dig under the river in a remote place
Running off-grid since january 2017, I upgraded my installation to Victron products, and never had any issue. Reliable, adaptive to any situation, and monitoring the production remotely, being able to act on any of the components while being far away is a must.
@@typxxilps that is not like Victron they fix issues if needed they will send someone out to help you. I love how you have so many issues but can’t provide details.
EE here: Most 230 or 240 volt equipment will function OK up to 300 volts. A grid by itself would not produce that unless like one incident I saw in which a 33KV line fell onto a 13KV line.
The grid over here can rise to 252v, which is the limit at which most PV inverters shut off. However, if your neighbors are particularly selfish, they may have fooled around with the limit settings and set it to 253v for instance, to avoid their PV installation shutting off. The next, again, may go for 254v. And there are even autotransformers on the market that present the inverter with 230v when the grid is already at 253v. If the inverter starts backfeeding, it can try and send well over 253v towards the grid. It depends on the local transformer how much it will rise in practice, but reaching the auto shutdown voltage is fairly common. Devices with switchmode power, or resistive things, are often completely fine at higher voltages. However, devices from the 220v era absolutely have problems with voltages over 240v. Small transformers can saturate, motors can run hotter. Not all transformer-fed equipment has a 240v tap that you can select and much fewer have a user selectable voltage. You might be an engineer, but i think you have to dig into actual devices. A fair amount of them have 400v smoothing caps. At 300v input they'll see 420v and fail within a year. Even if they have 450v caps, they'll fail much faster if there's 420v on them instead of the normal 320v. Please be aware that we *already* have major issues with brand new consumer electronics failing within only a few years because of parts that are running right on their limits even on 230v. I am not an engineer, but i do know the factors that decide on how long equipment lasts, and i have repaired hundreds of devices in my life, seeing each time how much or how little margin devices have for an increase in mains voltage.
@@mfbfreak How then would you explain the 60 PV panels failing from the grid voltage being too high, as mentioned in the video? I can understand the inverters failing but not how the supposedly electrically isolated PV panels would.
@@Berkeloid0agree 100% most equipment is equipt with a varistor which will blow first. I work the NG in the U.K. a lot of what I have to do is go and repair equipment after loss of neutral. I have replaced a good few inverters that have suffered 400V on the AC side and never ever has it damaged the panels. Impossible.
@@mfbfreak The issue can be also with the power line. If lets say in the middle of the line there is 252 Volts, it is possible, that at the end (in the camp) is over 252 V with no load, due to capacitance of the line.
Great video! Cool to show but the transformers are not really from the Netherlands unless its a very VERY remote area, and also the multiplus 15kva are NOT installed correctly because the distance that is mandatory from the victron installation manual is not kept! The rest is beautiful!
In Norway the utility owner are govern by a rigid set of rules and if they were to supply voltages over the regulated value (230+-10% 207-253V) they would have to cover all damaged equipment.
@@Berkeloid0 They are Multiplus-II inverter-chargers which do indeed ventilate vertically (I have 3 myself)... although the manual says "Place the MultiPlus-II units close to each other, but allow at least 10cm for ventilation purposes under, above and beside the units."
I had several types of UPS's, as power outage in my part of the Netherlands was about once or twice a year. Then I started to test a victron MP2 with a seplos box and cells from nkon for my future house. And now I really hate all the UPS's. UPS self test was a constant failure. UPS's have broken more than they were supposed to fix. I am really thinking about switching professions so I can install LiFePo4 with victron instead of a "professional" UPS for about the same price. With the difference you have full control with what you do with it.
Were they APC brand UPSes? I've had similar problems with them cooking the batteries after only 2-3 years, and then they drop power to the load during the self test. Plus they have a huge startup current from the batteries (the capacitors in them, while large, aren't large enough) so the batteries need to be in excellent condition for the inverter to even switch on. I have thought about switching to PV/battery equipment instead of a UPS as well, so interesting to hear that it is indeed a better solution.
It can't. The entire video contradicts itself constantly. He claims the grid wiped out 60 panels. Unless they were directly on the grid and it backcharged them somehow, which would have fried EVERYTHING on site, they wouldn't be touched. The inverters and breakers would have tripped long before that and even cheap chinese inverters and breakers prevent it. I suspect he's making a claim that's false because he's on a government grant/program and for some reason thinks it'll help his case to make the video. Same as why I don't see how 3 x 15KW inverters would provide power to an entire camp site of some 150 pitches that are all limited to 300w each unless they want to rotate the usage. Plus the EV chargers ontop of that. I suspect many things in this video are lies to facilitate an insurance claim or similar. Ofc maybe most of his stuff is on the grid that is apparently unstable but it doesn't make sense. The Netherlands has very stable voltage and it makes no sense that it'd blow up his equipment.
@@billienomates7100I don't fully understand why the solar panels would get damaged but I understand High Voltage (252v is the export cut off on most inverters) and can definitely destroy inverters at times they're just stating that because the voltages are high that it's an unstable grid when really it's the power company should be replacing the local transformer to get the voltage closer to 235-240v when load is light
I'm really unsure how high grid voltages will not continue to kill Inverters. Or are they just turning off AC supply in Muiltiplus above 255V to protect everything?
as an amateur i tried myself to turn my warehouse off grid. 8 months now system works quite well even without key parts like GX its amazing how safe it feels and how IN your system victron puts you ,,, IF you want to be into !!!
That would be a lack of grid planning and engineering as the root cause= too much random solar and wind that is not able to be controled on the grid Vicrton offers good solutions
Is the grid stability problem due to increasing use of renewable energy like wind and solar that can dump unexpected energy into the grid? The grid should be maintained within a certain tolerance of voltage and frequency, and any equipment connected to it should withstand those variations as well as surge voltages caused by lightning strikes.
Basically the Dutch electricity grid is constructed for one way use only, to supply energy to the customer. Secondary the grid has not been properly maintained for the rise of high demand industries, like datacenters. The rise of both high demand customers and the emergence of renewable energy systems that are able to deliver energy to the grid, made it very clear that significant changes are needed to improve, modernize and expand the Dutch electricity grid. Slowly the plans to do so are emerging, but the companies maintaining the grid are overwhelmed with the investments they have to make and the pace in which this investments have to be made. At this moment all big building projects, either big new factories or big housing projects are plagued by a lack of place on the grid.
With the problems of the unstable grid here (when there is a lot of sun) in the Netherlands I do not understand why they still building big solar fields everywhere over here. Nice solution for this campsite. Fully off grid on only electricity is a challenge in winter time in the Netherlands. There is simply not enough sun in December and January. I know I have 10KW solar power.
Okay a few notes on repairing boards: - the troubleshooting is the difficult part, with proper repair manuals this could be made much more accessible - the tools required to do most board-level repairs can be had for like $200, not thousands - you do not "repair chips", if an integrated circuit breaks, the only viable option is replacing it. Most small ICs are actually very cheap but what you said about software applies, you cannot repair a device if you can't access the replacement software to put on the chip.
Hello, We do not advise/proomote anyone try repairing board as this involves to much risk. Both on safety and reliability. The boards contain often software/calibration and such. So please dont try repairing on component level and contact a dealer/service centre for this. They know best what compatible and how to swap/repair boards
Those inverters will not last long, they are placed WAY to close to one another..... Air flow for cooling is going to be a very big problem. I do not get why people do not get this right......
Only 20w. I'm in the UK I have a small heat pump unit on and the TV aswell as all the other crap that you have on and I'm consuming under 100w from the grid so probably around 400w coming in.
I had a second look at the Video. I really have a few questions. The Alfen EV Chargers have Modbus TCp so they can be integrated into Nodered without the loxone server. Also there should be no broken devices because of 252 V Mains Voltage. If they are up to Regulations Standards, the PV Inverters should only be disconnected because of such high Mains Voltage but no Device manufactured after 2005 should be damaged because of this. And in the End, the installations is really not up to the Victron Manual and Wiring Guide, there is no Room between the Multiplus Inverters for Ventilation and the Batterycables are connected what looks like a random system or none at all, this should really be thought through more!
Solar PV Inverters are one the root problems of the Overvoltage at peak solar production. Also old grid transformers contribute to the dilemma. Both systems need to work together. Victron has exccelent solutions. However their systems are quite the challenge to setup! There is much to improve on the setup side! (Why do you need an MK3 to programm Multiplusses ? Why can't the Cerbo GX do the programming? etc....)
I bought a Multiplus GX thinking I could configure it using VE Connect over the WiFi/Ethernet. VE Connect sees it, but only gives me the Cerbo type setup, not the Multiplus. I must still use the USB adapter to configure the Multiplus locally :(
@@JohnWatkinsUK Thats Victron for you😉 I had to install an 94 kWh ESS with 3 phase Multis but the VICTRON !!Seller forgot to include the MK3🙄 Took me 2 weeks to get the parts together and install but now it runs fine. At least now I now more...😉 Cheers!
Interesting. Just strange that the 3x MP2 are stuck to each other without ventilation between them. Especially for 15kA. And one external fuse for 4 batteries, personnaly I would had used one fuse for 2 batteries max, just to be more secure.
@ why are you installing them without completing the proper training or even reading the instructions? Are some cases where you could where you would consult your sales person in your country? They can approve certain installations where it may be okay? Well a lot more has been done.
Here (in the Netherlands) there was never a power outage in the past 10 years+, but in the last 6 months twice, once in the summer and once very recently, when the first snow fell, I'm pretty sure it's caused by the little transformers inside the inverters of solar panels.
@@C4rb0neum You can check the "reference" circuit on inverters by Texas Instruments. Math becomes really complicated as Ohm's law is usually based on a single power source. now you have Goliath (the area transformer) vs the inverter (the ant or mite) with the resistance of the wire between them. Texas Instruments: Power inverter is a device that converts electrical power from DC form to AC form using electronic circuits. It is typical application is to convert battery voltage into conventional household AC voltage allowing you to use electronic devices when an AC power is NOT available.
Love the Victron Multiplus. You might consider teaching the correct installation methods and modifying an installation before showing it as an example. In this case, yes the inverters should be spaced apart according to the manufacturer’s manual. They get hot.
Ciao salvo, non mi è chiaro il tuo dubbio, non puoi semplicemente innalzare (magari tramite node-red) una volta ogni tot giorni la tensione di carica in DVCC? o forse non ho capito cosa chiedevi... però una risposta ufficiale Victron può essere utile
1:44 252V, this is way over the safety disconnect voltage. Your local transformer seams to be stuck or can't turn further down voltage, which should trigger a safety disconnect. I mean yeah, .6% and +10% are in range but normally if you hit +6% and your transformer is at its lowest position and can't turn further down, this triggers a warning to the grid operator who needs to reduce power generation or throw off some generators from the grid to prevent such things.
Very nice! Victron is good stuff. Anyone being honest can't deny that fact. But at least here in the states it's also unfortunately very expensive. Wish it weren't the case, my solar shed would be blue inside otherwise hands down.
Using a very strange split face system doesn’t help the case as specialist products have to be made just for a market that is not predominantly Victron
@UKsystems you only need 2 multyplus inverers to do that, They are made for 120 volts and 230 volts a line. Its just the way how you connect them and program them, as a split fase or as 1 or 3 fase. The cabinets and the hardware are the same. so no special production apart from the inverter voltage.
@ the model made for the rest of the world is simply not the US model for the reasons of the split system and the stupid approval process so it is just more expensive
I just did a cost analysis between Victron, Sol-Ark and Midnight Solar, and Victron was by far better cost per capacity for a US 120/240V 20kVA system. And that included all the Cerbo/Venus and Lynx extras the other brands dont have. I would not agree that Victron is expensive, unless you are comparing to chinese junk that steals your data and has no problem bricking your hardware remotely, and giving you a data security problem you cant even imagine.
What about using a heat pump for hot water, heating and cooling? A Panasonic Aquarea J is around 3.000 EUR, so it is not much more than the resistive heaters, but saves more than 50% of electricity.
They need to dump the excess amount of PV into something. If they 'export' the energy back to the grid, they get fined. Resistive heaters indeed use a lot of power, but that's exactly the point.
if you start and stop a heat pump it does not create heat, you need to keep it on for longer time so it would end up using more power in this case you dont allways produce the power needed for a heat pump, but a heating element can also work with small amounts of power. so you can also get a bit of heat on the days with less sun, with a heating element and it would also destroy the heat pump fast if it starts and stops all the time
It's not about saving electricity. The resistive heaters function as a dump-load when too much solar is being produced.They can be turned on in an instant, unlike a heatpump which takes time to startup.
They need to set the power tap on the transformer to a lower voltage tap or replace it so it's around 240v ac when demand is low (252v is typically the max a inverter will output) I have seen 252v on my ups at 3am in the morning but not middle of the day But them saying the power is unstable is silly when it's just the power company just needs to replace the transformer to get the correct voltage of around 235-240v (or ajust the internal tap on the transformer to lower it to 235-240v when load is light) The inverters was probably blowing up the mosfets due to switching off grid export when it went past 252v ac witch shouldn't happen in the middle of the day
Based on what they show in the video, the batts dont talk to the inverters, which is just fine. Closed loop comms is overrated. The Victron smart shunt is all you need for that.
Why are they not allowed to feed excess solar energy back to the grid? Camp site guy said they are not allowed to. IDK why. I'm not sure how long lithium batteries last for but my vape batteries are able to be rechargeable like 300 times.
I cannot understand why a system like this can't export energy to the grid! Surely, privately owned microgeneration/battery energy storage systems (BESS) systems such as this one could go a long way to help *stabilise* the grid - as is at least one part of the theory behind the UK's (sadly very badly overseen by the government) implementation of 'smart meters' (as I understand it).
I don't see how the system protects against the initial primary cause stated for them adding it which was that the high voltage spikes of the grid was damaging equipment. This is still a grid tide system is it not? Large spikes in the voltage will still damage the equipment?
@@lecramred4453 i still dont get why surge protecting would not solve the problem 500€ vs 180.000€ is a surge protector not a law when you build a new house in eu ? it is where i live in dk it make no sense to be living with your devices getting destroyed by the grid
@@Hansen710 the problem in big parts of the dutch low voltage distribution net is the use of private solar systems feeding that net. This net is way to smal for that, and feeding solar energy in to it on only one fase (Like the most small houshold systems here) making the net un reliable, at high solar moments the voltage wil rise far above 250 volts per fase (Witch is normaly not happening iff you dont connect pv on the low voltage distribution net). The problem is that the dutch government made it cheep to instal solar first, , feeding it only to the low voltage net what causes the problem, "Green"Politicians here would not listen to the grid providers that that would be a problem on this highly congested and not updatet grid net . Making the solar systems on homes an factory,s not grid feeding but storing it inprivate battery systems diverts that power, Bij not feeding the grid whit power we dont get almost any mony for it anyway anymore. Cost of 1 kwh in the netherlands is aroud 30 eurocents, Feeding into the grid is about 6 to 7 centc we earn... Thats useless anyway. Yust buuld ofgrid systems that provide just enough for a ousehold is a way better idea anyway.
There is no law about electric installations. There are guidelines though (NEN1010 etc.) but despite most people think this is not the law. Also devices getting destroyed by the grid is not true. It sounds spectacular by the camp owner but it is not true.
@@astrogerard I as well call BS. Most modern equipment will actually benefit from a higher voltage and run cooler because when voltage goes up the amps go down.
This should be a warning video for US grid tied solar producers too. The Netherlands aren't the only ones experiencing a dated and over demanded power grid.
Its great . ❤not cut the gasline to produce warm water,to reduce gas . Take an other gas than liquid cooled gaz from amerika wit mineral oil shipping ! Gas by small biogas , water also heatet by solar thermie, no large Networks over the Planet ! Direkt and regional , natural wood . A phantastic way ❤
Nobody realizes how much of that absolutely critical control software and control equipment for the power grid is manufactured by your adversaries in any war maybe that's not such a good idea
Perhaps you should understand that China is not going to put random malware on a Victorian inverter. They were randomly sample them and check somewhere is written correctly. May need to check for software issues but it would flag up things like this. Also you often upload the programming yourself in a very secure manner.
There is a difference between manufactured and designed. Yes, a lot of things are manufactured in a questionable country but the firmware that operates it all is encrypted and the chips that contain it are also protected (device protection has been a long long battle of attrition for anyone that wants to look into it). You can be fairly confident that the firmware on a non-rubbish product is what the manufacturer intends.
Your producing a enormous amount of energy in the middle of nowhere while not using it. Thats why the voltage spikes and then it damages the electric appliances. Silly to blame the grid operator.
Local transformer should have been replaced (or change the internal winding tap) to get it to 230-240v, 252v I will cause invert to stop exporting and can damage the inverter ( I don't get how it was damaging the solar panels though)
Break even point of 7 more years but soon after the batteries will need replacing and so the debt cycle continues. Think very hard before you invest in such a system, so many people would be better to just continue to pay a monthly bill if the grid is stable.
These batteries have around 6000 cycles. As described in the video during the year the solar supplies a lot of the power hardly needing to use the batteries. Even if the cycle was one a day (which it certainly isn’t) that’s still 16.8 years. Not 7 ;-) Plus they don’t want to rely on the grid as the grid is unstable in that area.
@@VictronEnergyBVThere is even not a cycle each day. Especially in winter times, we have to charge the batteries to 100% each week as there is too less sun
After installing such a system, the price to replace the battery's becomes almost laughable. Also, prices of battery's still continue to drop, while the storage capacity keeps increasing.
You never install this because the grid is amazing if the grid was amazing and cheap and perfect you wouldn’t do this. It’s worth knowing that if you design a system properly you could have double the batteries needed so when they degrade it still works fine.
So how did those voltage bursts damage the old install? And what makes the new install more robust against it? And why use a third party EV charger and use Node-Red and Loxone to talk to them, when Victron sells their own EV chargers? After watching, I have more questions then before.
It has to do with the range of the acceptable input as well as the protection features. for example the typical grid voltage range for Victrons inverters is between 187-265 VAC for non US inverters and equipment. That gives a 10% variance for over voltage and 28% variance for low voltage. That is a very large band. for the rest of the integration.... not sure but probably has to do with node-red networking or something like that, victron communicates better locally but not really out to long distances that would apply to an RV park/camp grounds. For the EV charging, probably not using victron since their chargers I do not believe have a pay capability, only load sharing/shedding
Yeh I can’t see anyway in which high voltage could damage the panels theirselves there is too much electronics in the way of the DC - AC side plus the MOV’s would of blown first. Or should of.
@@kevxsi16v they should but it depends on how fast the surge hits. most is advertising, and also what is to say the old equipment failed from end of life causing the damage and they blame the grid.
Henk talks about too much 'power' but means to high voltage...
Just install a voltage protector
Showing overhead lines and pole pig transformers is not the Dutch power grid.
Everything at and below 50kV here in the Netherlands is underground.
That is not always the case there are some cases where it has to be overhead
@UKsystems No not anymore here..
@@MrBugsier5 there are a few cases where there are farmland that is deemed an archaeological place or something where you can’t dig a table in where they had to keep overhead line. I think it’s only 1 mile but they even have very recently or are working a long route around it, but it is technically not the permanent solution so it isn’t deemed as being on pes technically.
@UKsystems Very interesting, where in the Netherlands is this?
@@martijnp804 the images are from a power company but it dose not say where maby for security to stop vandalism.
At around 2:00, you show above ground transformers and cables... we don't have such thing in the Netherlands. Everything is below ground, unlike in the US.
There are actually some cases where it is overhead, but they are very very specialist cases where there are things underground that cannot be disturbed
@UKsystems No, there not, We do not have low voltage power cables above ground anymore, There are a few farms in the middle of the coutry that stil have above ground low voltage feed of 3x 230 vac. But all of our h voltage distributu=ion below 50000 volts are underground, That makes a verry rugged system, Only the very high transport lines are above ground in huge masts, All other power feeds are below ground, We dont have pole transformers any more.
@ old 5000 V is underground apart from this that’s a very strong argument there
@UKsystems No, there are not. At least not in the NL where this is filmed.
@@astrogerard there are some but it’s very minimal and they are being replaced actively but in some rural areas it is very very hard to dig under the river in a remote place
Running off-grid since january 2017, I upgraded my installation to Victron products, and never had any issue. Reliable, adaptive to any situation, and monitoring the production remotely, being able to act on any of the components while being far away is a must.
but there are also reports about issues with victron systems at least here, complaints known for years and still not fixed.
@@typxxilps that is not like Victron they fix issues if needed they will send someone out to help you. I love how you have so many issues but can’t provide details.
EE here: Most 230 or 240 volt equipment will function OK up to 300 volts. A grid by itself would not produce that unless like one incident I saw in which a 33KV line fell onto a 13KV line.
The grid over here can rise to 252v, which is the limit at which most PV inverters shut off. However, if your neighbors are particularly selfish, they may have fooled around with the limit settings and set it to 253v for instance, to avoid their PV installation shutting off. The next, again, may go for 254v. And there are even autotransformers on the market that present the inverter with 230v when the grid is already at 253v. If the inverter starts backfeeding, it can try and send well over 253v towards the grid. It depends on the local transformer how much it will rise in practice, but reaching the auto shutdown voltage is fairly common.
Devices with switchmode power, or resistive things, are often completely fine at higher voltages. However, devices from the 220v era absolutely have problems with voltages over 240v. Small transformers can saturate, motors can run hotter. Not all transformer-fed equipment has a 240v tap that you can select and much fewer have a user selectable voltage. You might be an engineer, but i think you have to dig into actual devices. A fair amount of them have 400v smoothing caps. At 300v input they'll see 420v and fail within a year. Even if they have 450v caps, they'll fail much faster if there's 420v on them instead of the normal 320v. Please be aware that we *already* have major issues with brand new consumer electronics failing within only a few years because of parts that are running right on their limits even on 230v. I am not an engineer, but i do know the factors that decide on how long equipment lasts, and i have repaired hundreds of devices in my life, seeing each time how much or how little margin devices have for an increase in mains voltage.
@@mfbfreak How then would you explain the 60 PV panels failing from the grid voltage being too high, as mentioned in the video? I can understand the inverters failing but not how the supposedly electrically isolated PV panels would.
@@Berkeloid0agree 100% most equipment is equipt with a varistor which will blow first.
I work the NG in the U.K. a lot of what I have to do is go and repair equipment after loss of neutral. I have replaced a good few inverters that have suffered 400V on the AC side and never ever has it damaged the panels. Impossible.
@@mfbfreak The issue can be also with the power line. If lets say in the middle of the line there is 252 Volts, it is possible, that at the end (in the camp) is over 252 V with no load, due to capacitance of the line.
Zó gaaf om dit te zien. Love Victron! Thnx 4 sharing.
Great video! Cool to show but the transformers are not really from the Netherlands unless its a very VERY remote area, and also the multiplus 15kva are NOT installed correctly because the distance that is mandatory from the victron installation manual is not kept!
The rest is beautiful!
In Norway the utility owner are govern by a rigid set of rules and if they were to supply voltages over the regulated value (230+-10% 207-253V) they would have to cover all damaged equipment.
Why the victron inverters are not installed with proper gap?😢
@@edc1569 this video is punished by victron itself. So i don't think they are not noticed this mistake?
Not needed ….
They look like models that cool from bottom to top, so you only need gaps at the top and bottom which they have
@@Berkeloid0 They are Multiplus-II inverter-chargers which do indeed ventilate vertically (I have 3 myself)... although the manual says "Place the MultiPlus-II units close to each other, but allow at least 10cm for ventilation purposes under, above and beside the units."
I had several types of UPS's, as power outage in my part of the Netherlands was about once or twice a year.
Then I started to test a victron MP2 with a seplos box and cells from nkon for my future house.
And now I really hate all the UPS's. UPS self test was a constant failure. UPS's have broken more than they were supposed to fix.
I am really thinking about switching professions so I can install LiFePo4 with victron instead of a "professional" UPS for about the same price. With the difference you have full control with what you do with it.
Were they APC brand UPSes? I've had similar problems with them cooking the batteries after only 2-3 years, and then they drop power to the load during the self test. Plus they have a huge startup current from the batteries (the capacitors in them, while large, aren't large enough) so the batteries need to be in excellent condition for the inverter to even switch on. I have thought about switching to PV/battery equipment instead of a UPS as well, so interesting to hear that it is indeed a better solution.
Can someone explain how hig voltage on the gride destroyed solar panels? Which are separated from the grid by at least two layers of isolation?
It doesent destroy the panels, it destroys the inverters
@@anzzgar Now see, that makes sense. But they clealy said 60 panels were destroyed, which doesn't make sense to me.
It can't. The entire video contradicts itself constantly.
He claims the grid wiped out 60 panels. Unless they were directly on the grid and it backcharged them somehow, which would have fried EVERYTHING on site, they wouldn't be touched.
The inverters and breakers would have tripped long before that and even cheap chinese inverters and breakers prevent it.
I suspect he's making a claim that's false because he's on a government grant/program and for some reason thinks it'll help his case to make the video. Same as why I don't see how 3 x 15KW inverters would provide power to an entire camp site of some 150 pitches that are all limited to 300w each unless they want to rotate the usage. Plus the EV chargers ontop of that.
I suspect many things in this video are lies to facilitate an insurance claim or similar.
Ofc maybe most of his stuff is on the grid that is apparently unstable but it doesn't make sense. The Netherlands has very stable voltage and it makes no sense that it'd blow up his equipment.
@@billienomates7100grid tied inverters could easily fail in a way that puts grid voltage directly on the panels.
@@billienomates7100I don't fully understand why the solar panels would get damaged but I understand High Voltage (252v is the export cut off on most inverters) and can definitely destroy inverters at times
they're just stating that because the voltages are high that it's an unstable grid when really it's the power company should be replacing the local transformer to get the voltage closer to 235-240v when load is light
I'm really unsure how high grid voltages will not continue to kill Inverters.
Or are they just turning off AC supply in Muiltiplus above 255V to protect everything?
as an amateur i tried myself to turn my warehouse off grid. 8 months now system works quite well even without key parts like GX its amazing how safe it feels and how IN your system victron puts you ,,, IF you want to be into !!!
Fantastic. Well done. I only reccomend Victron.
For water heating, heat pump (air to water).(And why no gap where 3 victron inverters installed?).
That would be a lack of grid planning and engineering as the root cause= too much random solar and wind that is not able to be controled on the grid
Vicrton offers good solutions
Is the grid stability problem due to increasing use of renewable energy like wind and solar that can dump unexpected energy into the grid? The grid should be maintained within a certain tolerance of voltage and frequency, and any equipment connected to it should withstand those variations as well as surge voltages caused by lightning strikes.
Basically the Dutch electricity grid is constructed for one way use only, to supply energy to the customer. Secondary the grid has not been properly maintained for the rise of high demand industries, like datacenters. The rise of both high demand customers and the emergence of renewable energy systems that are able to deliver energy to the grid, made it very clear that significant changes are needed to improve, modernize and expand the Dutch electricity grid. Slowly the plans to do so are emerging, but the companies maintaining the grid are overwhelmed with the investments they have to make and the pace in which this investments have to be made. At this moment all big building projects, either big new factories or big housing projects are plagued by a lack of place on the grid.
Love Victron! Starting another van project and want to go with 48 volts this time.
With the problems of the unstable grid here (when there is a lot of sun) in the Netherlands I do not understand why they still building big solar fields everywhere over here. Nice solution for this campsite. Fully off grid on only electricity is a challenge in winter time in the Netherlands. There is simply not enough sun in December and January. I know I have 10KW solar power.
Okay a few notes on repairing boards:
- the troubleshooting is the difficult part, with proper repair manuals this could be made much more accessible
- the tools required to do most board-level repairs can be had for like $200, not thousands
- you do not "repair chips", if an integrated circuit breaks, the only viable option is replacing it. Most small ICs are actually very cheap but what you said about software applies, you cannot repair a device if you can't access the replacement software to put on the chip.
Hello, We do not advise/proomote anyone try repairing board as this involves to much risk. Both on safety and reliability. The boards contain often software/calibration and such. So please dont try repairing on component level and contact a dealer/service centre for this. They know best what compatible and how to swap/repair boards
Those inverters will not last long, they are placed WAY to close to one another..... Air flow for cooling is going to be a very big problem. I do not get why people do not get this right......
im curios if there is enought to power the hot water in the winter. i have a 2kw system and it made like 20w the last week...
Only 20w. I'm in the UK I have a small heat pump unit on and the TV aswell as all the other crap that you have on and I'm consuming under 100w from the grid so probably around 400w coming in.
I had a second look at the Video.
I really have a few questions.
The Alfen EV Chargers have Modbus TCp so they can be integrated into Nodered without the loxone server.
Also there should be no broken devices because of 252 V Mains Voltage. If they are up to Regulations Standards, the PV Inverters should only be disconnected because of such high Mains Voltage but no Device manufactured after 2005 should be damaged because of this.
And in the End, the installations is really not up to the Victron Manual and Wiring Guide, there is no Room between the Multiplus Inverters for Ventilation and the Batterycables are connected what looks like a random system or none at all, this should really be thought through more!
Solar PV Inverters are one the root problems of the Overvoltage at peak solar production.
Also old grid transformers contribute to the dilemma. Both systems need to work together.
Victron has exccelent solutions. However their systems are quite the challenge to setup!
There is much to improve on the setup side!
(Why do you need an MK3 to programm Multiplusses ? Why can't the Cerbo GX do the programming? etc....)
I bought a Multiplus GX thinking I could configure it using VE Connect over the WiFi/Ethernet. VE Connect sees it, but only gives me the Cerbo type setup, not the Multiplus. I must still use the USB adapter to configure the Multiplus locally :(
@@JohnWatkinsUK Thats Victron for you😉
I had to install an 94 kWh ESS with 3 phase Multis but the VICTRON !!Seller forgot to include the MK3🙄
Took me 2 weeks to get the parts together and install but now it runs fine.
At least now I now more...😉
Cheers!
Nice Job!
Interesting. Just strange that the 3x MP2 are stuck to each other without ventilation between them. Especially for 15kA. And one external fuse for 4 batteries, personnaly I would had used one fuse for 2 batteries max, just to be more secure.
Every single battery has its own fuse.
And there is no problem with the temperature. The inverter compartiment is actively ventilated.
@@lecramred4453 please tell me how this provides cooling and how it follows the instructions
@UKsystems The instructions are based on the previous models. Why should Victron make a vid with wrongly installed inverters?
@ why are you installing them without completing the proper training or even reading the instructions? Are some cases where you could where you would consult your sales person in your country? They can approve certain installations where it may be okay? Well a lot more has been done.
Victron Inverters are good at handling over and under Voltages.
Here (in the Netherlands) there was never a power outage in the past 10 years+, but in the last 6 months twice, once in the summer and once very recently, when the first snow fell, I'm pretty sure it's caused by the little transformers inside the inverters of solar panels.
Do you have evidence for your claim as well?
@@C4rb0neum You can check the "reference" circuit on inverters by Texas Instruments.
Math becomes really complicated as Ohm's law is usually based on a single power source. now you have Goliath (the area transformer) vs the inverter (the ant or mite) with the resistance of the wire between them.
Texas Instruments: Power inverter is a device that converts electrical power from DC form to AC form using electronic circuits.
It is typical application is to convert battery voltage into conventional household AC voltage allowing you to
use electronic devices when an AC power is NOT available.
yes there was, locally usually but there have been power outages due to things like worn out MV transfomers
@@kiddy1992 But not here, otherwise i wouldn't have mentioned it.
ever tried to connect it to home assistend?
Love the Victron Multiplus. You might consider teaching the correct installation methods and modifying an installation before showing it as an example. In this case, yes the inverters should be spaced apart according to the manufacturer’s manual. They get hot.
Una curiosità non da poco, come bilanciate in alto tutte queste batterie se vivete in modalità off GRID senza rete elettrica.
Ciao salvo, non mi è chiaro il tuo dubbio, non puoi semplicemente innalzare (magari tramite node-red) una volta ogni tot giorni la tensione di carica in DVCC? o forse non ho capito cosa chiedevi... però una risposta ufficiale Victron può essere utile
1:44 252V, this is way over the safety disconnect voltage. Your local transformer seams to be stuck or can't turn further down voltage, which should trigger a safety disconnect. I mean yeah, .6% and +10% are in range but normally if you hit +6% and your transformer is at its lowest position and can't turn further down, this triggers a warning to the grid operator who needs to reduce power generation or throw off some generators from the grid to prevent such things.
Very nice! Victron is good stuff. Anyone being honest can't deny that fact. But at least here in the states it's also unfortunately very expensive. Wish it weren't the case, my solar shed would be blue inside otherwise hands down.
Using a very strange split face system doesn’t help the case as specialist products have to be made just for a market that is not predominantly Victron
@UKsystems you only need 2 multyplus inverers to do that, They are made for 120 volts and 230 volts a line. Its just the way how you connect them and program them, as a split fase or as 1 or 3 fase. The cabinets and the hardware are the same. so no special production apart from the inverter voltage.
@ the model made for the rest of the world is simply not the US model for the reasons of the split system and the stupid approval process so it is just more expensive
I just did a cost analysis between Victron, Sol-Ark and Midnight Solar, and Victron was by far better cost per capacity for a US 120/240V 20kVA system. And that included all the Cerbo/Venus and Lynx extras the other brands dont have. I would not agree that Victron is expensive, unless you are comparing to chinese junk that steals your data and has no problem bricking your hardware remotely, and giving you a data security problem you cant even imagine.
2:07 This is not taken in the Netherlands.
We have our powerlines underground...
What about using a heat pump for hot water, heating and cooling? A Panasonic Aquarea J is around 3.000 EUR, so it is not much more than the resistive heaters, but saves more than 50% of electricity.
A heat pump does not work with excessive solar power as it is not done to start and stop the hp often
They need to dump the excess amount of PV into something. If they 'export' the energy back to the grid, they get fined. Resistive heaters indeed use a lot of power, but that's exactly the point.
if you start and stop a heat pump it does not create heat, you need to keep it on for longer time
so it would end up using more power in this case
you dont allways produce the power needed for a heat pump, but a heating element can also work with small amounts of power.
so you can also get a bit of heat on the days with less sun, with a heating element
and it would also destroy the heat pump fast if it starts and stops all the time
It's not about saving electricity. The resistive heaters function as a dump-load when too much solar is being produced.They can be turned on in an instant, unlike a heatpump which takes time to startup.
Inverters to close together and also the MPPT as well, not good for cooling and access.
The lack of proper bus bars on that battery array are making me cringe...
There is a busbar system present. Don't worry
How is he protecting his new system from grid voltage spikes?
They need to set the power tap on the transformer to a lower voltage tap or replace it so it's around 240v ac when demand is low (252v is typically the max a inverter will output) I have seen 252v on my ups at 3am in the morning but not middle of the day
But them saying the power is unstable is silly when it's just the power company just needs to replace the transformer to get the correct voltage of around 235-240v (or ajust the internal tap on the transformer to lower it to 235-240v when load is light)
The inverters was probably blowing up the mosfets due to switching off grid export when it went past 252v ac witch shouldn't happen in the middle of the day
There must be a distance of 10 cm between MultiPlus inverters
How do the inverters communicate with the batteries?
Based on what they show in the video, the batts dont talk to the inverters, which is just fine. Closed loop comms is overrated. The Victron smart shunt is all you need for that.
With a Victron Lynx Shunt
@@lecramred4453 can they communicate with the BMS?
@@tarant315 No, but that is not needed
Why are they not allowed to feed excess solar energy back to the grid? Camp site guy said they are not allowed to. IDK why. I'm not sure how long lithium batteries last for but my vape batteries are able to be rechargeable like 300 times.
Doesn't Ferry Baumann live there ?
🤣🤣🤣
I cannot understand why a system like this can't export energy to the grid! Surely, privately owned microgeneration/battery energy storage systems (BESS) systems such as this one could go a long way to help *stabilise* the grid - as is at least one part of the theory behind the UK's (sadly very badly overseen by the government) implementation of 'smart meters' (as I understand it).
nice.
I don't see how the system protects against the initial primary cause stated for them adding it which was that the high voltage spikes of the grid was damaging equipment. This is still a grid tide system is it not? Large spikes in the voltage will still damage the equipment?
When you charge the batteries at high voltage moments, the voltage will decrease. In addition, the Smartsolar is not grid tied.
@@lecramred4453 i still dont get why surge protecting would not solve the problem
500€ vs 180.000€
is a surge protector not a law when you build a new house in eu ?
it is where i live in dk
it make no sense to be living with your devices getting destroyed by the grid
@@Hansen710 the problem in big parts of the dutch low voltage distribution net is the use of private solar systems feeding that net. This net is way to smal for that, and feeding solar energy in to it on only one fase (Like the most small houshold systems here) making the net un reliable, at high solar moments the voltage wil rise far above 250 volts per fase (Witch is normaly not happening iff you dont connect pv on the low voltage distribution net). The problem is that the dutch government made it cheep to instal solar first, , feeding it only to the low voltage net what causes the problem, "Green"Politicians here would not listen to the grid providers that that would be a problem on this highly congested and not updatet grid net . Making the solar systems on homes an factory,s not grid feeding but storing it inprivate battery systems diverts that power, Bij not feeding the grid whit power we dont get almost any mony for it anyway anymore. Cost of 1 kwh in the netherlands is aroud 30 eurocents, Feeding into the grid is about 6 to 7 centc we earn... Thats useless anyway. Yust buuld ofgrid systems that provide just enough for a ousehold is a way better idea anyway.
There is no law about electric installations. There are guidelines though (NEN1010 etc.) but despite most people think this is not the law.
Also devices getting destroyed by the grid is not true. It sounds spectacular by the camp owner but it is not true.
@@astrogerard I as well call BS. Most modern equipment will actually benefit from a higher voltage and run cooler because when voltage goes up the amps go down.
This should be a warning video for US grid tied solar producers too. The Netherlands aren't the only ones experiencing a dated and over demanded power grid.
I am seeing a couple of things in this setup witch are officially not allowed 😱
Its great . ❤not cut the gasline to produce warm water,to reduce gas . Take an other gas than liquid cooled gaz from amerika wit mineral oil shipping ! Gas by small biogas , water also heatet by solar thermie, no large Networks over the Planet ! Direkt and regional , natural wood .
A phantastic way ❤
Nobody realizes how much of that absolutely critical control software and control equipment for the power grid is manufactured by your adversaries in any war maybe that's not such a good idea
Perhaps you should understand that China is not going to put random malware on a Victorian inverter. They were randomly sample them and check somewhere is written correctly. May need to check for software issues but it would flag up things like this. Also you often upload the programming yourself in a very secure manner.
There is a difference between manufactured and designed. Yes, a lot of things are manufactured in a questionable country but the firmware that operates it all is encrypted and the chips that contain it are also protected (device protection has been a long long battle of attrition for anyone that wants to look into it). You can be fairly confident that the firmware on a non-rubbish product is what the manufacturer intends.
The spacing around the Multiplus II's is incorrect, why promote this in a video?
@@flybywire5866 the case is metal and acts as a heatsink, the gap is needed for airflow.
The Manual states a 10cm gap all round.
That was needed for the old Multiplus I. This equipment has worked all summer without any issue.
@@lecramred4453 it may work but when you make a warranty claim and they find this out, you were getting a big bill for them helping you
👍 👍
Your producing a enormous amount of energy in the middle of nowhere while not using it. Thats why the voltage spikes and then it damages the electric appliances. Silly to blame the grid operator.
Local transformer should have been replaced (or change the internal winding tap) to get it to 230-240v, 252v I will cause invert to stop exporting and can damage the inverter ( I don't get how it was damaging the solar panels though)
180 mil USD? 3x 15kv = 10 mil. 2 xMPPT RS + Fronius < 10 mil. Batteries = 20-30 more. Panels. lets say 20. Where 100 mil went?
It was actually 135k
Ola
Tot properly heat water, one needs natural gas, a heat pump or Bitcoin miners.
go offgrid😂 you can do it.❤
Hmmmm...
nothing incredible new. Just the standart how a PV system should be built today.
too much solar too little use. also old ass inverters with 0 overvoltage protection.
Ach was
Break even point of 7 more years but soon after the batteries will need replacing and so the debt cycle continues. Think very hard before you invest in such a system, so many people would be better to just continue to pay a monthly bill if the grid is stable.
These batteries have around 6000 cycles. As described in the video during the year the solar supplies a lot of the power hardly needing to use the batteries. Even if the cycle was one a day (which it certainly isn’t) that’s still 16.8 years. Not 7 ;-)
Plus they don’t want to rely on the grid as the grid is unstable in that area.
@@VictronEnergyBVThere is even not a cycle each day. Especially in winter times, we have to charge the batteries to 100% each week as there is too less sun
After installing such a system, the price to replace the battery's becomes almost laughable.
Also, prices of battery's still continue to drop, while the storage capacity keeps increasing.
You never install this because the grid is amazing if the grid was amazing and cheap and perfect you wouldn’t do this. It’s worth knowing that if you design a system properly you could have double the batteries needed so when they degrade it still works fine.
@@VictronEnergyBV These batteries will most likely outlive the camp owner. 🙂