Should We Ban Kazuya and Steve? What's REALLY Killing SSBU?!
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- This discourse always seems to ignore how these guys do at the local and focus on the majors. I go over my personal experiences with Kazuya and Steve.
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#smashultimate #smashbros #smashbrosultimate #kazuya #kazuyamishima #games #SSBU #steve #rob #locals #tournament
man that skeleton guy seems carried
Could be
Sanz?
@rosé
Yup
Go outside
I remember going to melee locals and having 2 icey mains wobble all the way to grand finals, every time, without fail. I complained and ppl told me to keep quiet. I left their scene, and so did multiple others. It was absolute degenerate insanity
Steve and Kazuya each play their own game. People don’t want to play that, they want to play smash bros
Exactly
Trueeee
exactly it doesnt feel like smash bros when playing against them
@@mcrsmash8319 but it still is smash bros
but they already are
As someone who started in 2007 playing Melee tournaments, lived through the entirety of Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate thus far, I do not expect any characters to be banned. This conversation is always had, be it Metaknight, Bayonetta, and now Steve and KAZUYA MISHIMA, but no character has ever been banned and I don't expect that to change.
That doesn’t mean the character shouldn’t be banned. Metaknight and icies shoulda been banned same for bayonetta in 4. The games would’ve had a healthier meta.
The smash community doesn’t give a shit if the scene goes down the crapper due to an overpowered character. This has been displayed numerous times.
I'd rather have kazuya then Steve and min min. Character has to approach at least
@@XplosvChknBrstsFTW Ol noodle arms design is just as bad as Steve/Kazuya. To have that much space control and those hit boxes not be projectiles, eliminating a key way to punish a zoner character is just silly. I think the least egregious DLC characters are Banjo(who sucks) and then Sephiroth. The devs were trying to do way too much off the wall bs with these DLC characters, wish they spread that love to the rest of the cast.
Brawl competitive scene is not NEARLY what smash is today and meta knight quite obviously should’ve been banned so this is a shit argument
The real problem is the stoppage of balance patches. It at least kept the game fresh
This...
I agree we should've gotten 1 or 2 last balance patches or maybe like once every 6 months even after Sora's release. But for the general patches I think Ult is in an extremely precarious place. Generally I much prefer buffs to nerfs because I prefer seeing lower and bottom tiers getting a spotlight but at the same time I think there's just way too many things in top tier characters' kit that are overtuned.
agreed
Melee has existed fresh without patches for over 20 years.
Y'all just spoiled by things like LoL.
@@kimoota-kun This, people like to espouse the "nerfs not buffs" philosophy but it's horribly flawed. It's much more feasible to nerf a handful of characters that are centralizing the meta than to buff 60% of the characters who are underperforming in the competitive scene. To me it just sounds like people who abuse top tiers wanting the game to revolve around them.
Steve and Kazuya will never be banned no matter how much they kill the game
People don't really know what killing the game means anyway.
And do you think thats cool, just because it is like it is?
@@shaghilathar3588 i don't know how anyone could misconstrue what killing the game means. It means making the competitive scene much less active. Which results in less players, even from those who wouldn't play competitively. Because there's less representation of the game. I think Kazuya has a fair amount of counter play. He's still a stupid char, but at least somewhat doable. But Steve has so much counter-counter play. Ban em.
@@dennisd.4726 I know what killing the game means , just that to what degree is what's subjective. I think a decrease in players from one region doesn't mean you can extrapolate and say the game is dying
They wont kill the game because people havent figured out counterplay against Kazuya and Steve and both get away with things far too much
I've been a casual spectator of the DFW scene since Smash Ultimate's release. I actually planned on going to my first-ever local tournament, but the Pandemic crashed and killed those plans. However, even after locals opened back up again, I realized just how much lower the attendance rate was compared to previous years. It didn't help that the region was running rampant with Kazuya, Steve, and ROB players. With those two major factors in mind, I never did go to a local tournament. In fact, I even slowly stopped spectating the scene altogether.
I'm sad because I want to support my region by attending and participating. But not enough people are going and these matchups personally don't incentivize me to get out there, pay money, and play games that I wouldn't enjoy.
You could try melee ^^
@@lightbrand_ Melee isn't any better?? There are like, 6 viable characters. Rivals of Aether is better IMO. One of the best balanced fighting games I've ever played and each character is very unique.
I used to frequently go to locals getting top 8's and top 16's until ult came out where I started to have shifts in my life (relationships, work, school) and after covid lockdown I tried to get myself back into the game, but it felt impossible. My time is valuable now, and I would much rather not spend money and time to go to a local only to play annoying and degen matchups.
When ult first came out most people were still learning the game
Completely agree. I grinded Smash 4 for 3+ hours nearly every night back in high school. With Ultimate, I wanted to do the same thing. However, not only did I not have as much time as I used to, but I don't want to spend that time playing against these degenerate characters. It's not fun nor is it rewarding.
It’s definitely an interesting discussion to be had, and is one I think about a lot as a Steve main. I always dread when new players play their first set against me, as I wanna try my best but also want them to enjoy themselves…
Hard to say whether the game is dying or not. Viewership is dependent on which players people like, not the character. Riddles is getting pretty popular and is hyped a lot here in Canada, but is basically maining Kazuya now, a character with mixed opinions. So a Kazuya vs Steve set may be more popular depending on whether it’s Riddles vs Acola or random vs random. Too many variables to consider.
You can't speak for me and I hate watching a super good player lose to a cheesy op character. I honestly lost interest in SmashU tournaments, not really watching any anymore
@@SlakjeJasper OP? Interesting. I don’t consider any character significantly stronger than the rest of the cast, unless you think a lot of characters are overpowered. I definitely believe Kazuya isn’t, however he is very reliant on his strong (and let’s face it, easy) kill setups. He does have weaknesses but in order to exploit them you need to play very passive and campy. Rushing him down doesn’t work when his combo starter is so strong.
@@raymondfowler6380 Yeah you can have your own definition for what OP means, but Kazuya having 0 to deaths on command is silly to me. And Steve just does everything better than other characters and makes platforms on demand. Mostly they seem like gimmicks using boring tricks over and over
@@SlakjeJasper Eh, I completely disagree with you. The only real reason that these characters are hated is because they're stressful as shit to play against, so they're filtering out the whole community that got used to complaining about characters to get them nerfed instead of just playing the game. It's basically like the whole melee fox thing from back in the day all over again. Are these the best characters in the game? Yes. Do they have infinite potential? Also yes. Are they broken? Maybe? We haven't really fully found out the full spectrum of the situation yet.
@@Cronalixz nah bro you just think you're right. You're spewing bullshit trying to mask it as something rational
I'm for banning Steve and keeping an eye on Kazuya.
Steve has so many options that IMO it's unreasonable to play around EVERYTHING which is why there seems to be so many upsets both ways around the character. THAT and I think the lack of visual and audio queues for most of Steve's moves is just something that really shouldn't exist.
I agree that neither character is killing the game but if one rule change can make the game better, why not?
It’s not unreasonable to play around everything, it’s just difficult. That doesn’t make Steve an unfair character necessarily, it just makes him a difficult one and a matchup check.
Also, there is harm to unnecessarily banning a character. Not only do you screw over players that enjoy watching/playing/labbing Steve, you also set a precedent that characters can be banned even if they don’t really deserve it. People would go on to want to ban other characters, since there will always be top tiers and there will always be annoying characters. There’s no easy way to stop that ban train, especially with how much the smash community likes to complain
Steve has more options than any other character. Options that can consistently lead to death after one mistake. Personally I find that unreasonable but if you don't I doubt we are going to see eye to eye. Plus the "Steve being super hard to play against while easy to play as thing" is unreasonable as well IMO. Not to mention Steve not really playing neutral
I'm probably just old lol but OH NO A STEVE PLAYER WILL NOT HAVE FUN ANYMORE is such a non life issue to me. I'm going to value a healthy competitive meta game over a very small % of players switching hobbies. Plus if you care about people who like Steve then you need to care about the people who don't have fun with Steve around (the vast majority)
Oh no people will want characters banned? So literally what we have now? If people want Sonic, Aegis, or Kazuya banned let them talk. There's legit arguments behind all of them. Discussions are healthy. It's not worth losing sleep over some teenager on Twitter screaming about how Duck Hunt should be banned
With all this said, I'd be shocked if Steve ever gets banned. We love keeping the status quo in Smash so much we'll just let the game die before we make any big moves
Banning characters is for cowards
It would be nice to see someone make actual stats and analytics if the Steve / fp2 is actually causing a viewer and tournament entry drop
agreed cause the only way these characters getting shafted is if people lose interest overall in tournaments/ decreased viewership
I believe Barnards Loop is making an article on whether they should be banned and whether or not these characters are causing players to quit watching. He made a similar article about Bayo in Smash 4, and Bayo was hurting viewership and he believes that Bayo should've been banned for that reason.
You can see the number of views in the vods and compare them to others I think 🤷🏻♂️
The problem is you just cant attribute one factor to a drop in viewership. People can lost interest even if the game is balanced. All of us can see that happening to multiple games
It's not FP2, it's just Steve and Kazuya, how hard is this to understand? Nobody calls for bans for any of the other FP2 characters
Found your video in recommendation and I'm glad I clicked on it. Very good video about the situation. It's true that I'd never considered the effects of Steve, Kazuya and ROB at the local level before. For myself, I don't enjoy watching Steve when I watch major tournaments. But you've opened my eyes more to the problem at the local level: entrants have decreased, known players stopped attending, stream views are also lower. There has been a negative effect on the scene, and that doesn't bode well at any level of the competitive scene future for Ultimate. It's definitely a problem, and I must confess it's hard to root for new players with no established Smash history who just popped up from nowhere thanks to playing Steve since 2020.
Side note but I watched shockwave a lot back in the Smash 4 days. I remember when Cosmos using Corrin was in that region haha. Do you think that Bayonetta had a similar negative effect on the Smash 4 local scene in your region too? I actually remember when I could name about 3 top Bayo in your region in like 2018 lol
They aren't hemorrhaging growth at all. I know a lot of people who play Kazuya because they like Tekken
Peeps cry about having to learn to fight Steve Kazuya and dlc, like they realize you have to learn EVERY character in a game as balanced as Ultimate right?
Últimate and balanced. Dont go in the same sentence
@@jasonlobo2350 have you played brawl or smash 4? Or even Melee? Or any other fighting game almost? Ultimate has like 20/25 top tiers, and like 30/35 high tiers; over half the game is viable. Mkleo and Spargo be winning freaking majors with freaking Byleth/Corrin and Cloud, who arent even top 20 characters. All 6 characters from the dlc pack have won majors.
Character diversity is insane! What else do you want?
@@bigtoblerone8446 i mean on melee half the cast is viable. And almost on every FG half the cast is viable..... like whats the point? Having a half the cast viable thing is pretty normal on FGs. Smash is not making magic
@@jasonlobo2350 but none of those fighting games have 89 characters! The point is, that even with so many characters, a lot of the cast is relatively balanced.
@@jasonlobo2350 nope melee is balance Whithin it’s best characters but overall most characters are not viable. In ult a game with 89 characters , the bottom 3 have gotten results. Nairo using ganon, doc getting 3rd at a regional, or alternis and peanut getting to 16 at majors. Do you seriously think Kirby and mr game n watch could ever get results like that I’m melee? And the game has been out over 20 years ago
The problem is that these players arent an immobile wall. As you learn around the matchup, they learn about you learning faster
so true. Steve and Kazuya are both chars with a particulary high skillcap while carriend players on low level at the same time.
@@MrBobxxl No one really cares about "the low level". These discussions about banning certain characters only make sense at a higher skill level, where players dedicate entire days to train for tournaments, only to be beaten by dlc bs. In that regard, Kazuya is the least offensive of them both as his learning curve is probably the highest of any character in the game, which mitigates the amount of people picking him up to "get easy wins". If the Kazuya is skilled, he'll get the win, if he's not, he'll get combo'd to death. That does not apply to Steve, whose moveset is so basic anyone can pick him up, learn his tech in a few hours and then get extremely easy wins by camping until he gets diamond.
@@BakingSoda4U There are numerous characters that combo just as much as Steve and hit harder. Steve is not this unbeatable force lol. I don't understand why people just run away from him since there is very little he can do.
@@ASHtheSLUGCAT Yet none of those characters is considering to be the best in the game by a wide variety of top players. You haven't seen literal whos get carried by the characters you are talking about either.
As a side note, it is not about him being "unbeatable" as it is about him being extremely boring to deal with or even watch, considering this is a fighting game and therefore constant action is something a normal viewer would expect. Only underaged kids consider him "fun" to watch because of their early 2010's nostalgia.
@@BakingSoda4U A massive portion of the SSBU community is made up by children, or even teenagers/adults that play or played Minecraft. It’s arguably the most popular game of all time. I think a lot of people that haven’t played Minecraft are really closed minded about Steve, just because he’s a rep from a modern game that they don’t play.
my standpoint is that if YOU don't like playing against a character, YOU play a different game. Let the people who like playing as/against these characters do so, especially since ultimate isn't getting any more updates, so it's popularity would be dropping off anyway.
Oh no our game has top tiers that don’t have conventional playstyles D: better ban all of them so we can get back to fox vs (insert anime sword character here)
Accurate statement.
lol some people just dont want character diversity cuz they dont wanna adapt; some people want ultimate to be what it's not
I don't think they should be banned, what bothers me is people who like through their teeth saying these characters arent broken which is nonsense. I agree, they should stay and people should find a way, but Kaz/Steve apologists should stop pretending these characters aren't completely cracked to the core.
It's always interesting to me how the US smash scene seems to struggle hard with the influx of Steve and Kazuya but my region (Europe) and the UK (specifically London) doesn't seem to be as affected by this. Maybe it's because our scene is generally overlooked and or generally considered not a threat (though Peli and Bloom in VCA did at least put us on the map).
It could be the fact that NA and Japan are usually considered strong regions. The better the player base, the better certain characters will do. I would consider Steve and kazuya to have higher skill ceilings, in a weaker region, they may not do as well.
Doesn't the UK have a top Steve main tho, one who rose up the ranks recently? Maze Beans I think they're named. I remember players like Peli from back when, the Sonic main. But I'd never heard of that new Steve main until recently, so are they a newer player who rose thru the ranks because of Steve?
Japan also isn’t having as much of a problem. Obv they have the best Steve in the world but they are also miles ahead of NA when it comes to counterplay
@@silverpotato4272
Miles ahead is a bit of a stretch tbh. Acola has only lost like 3 tournaments in the past half a year. Of the most recent tournaments, he lost to Dabuz, Kola and Light most recently at summit. Aka 3 American players. Anathema and Tweek also took Acola to game 5. So clearly North American top players are learning Steve counterplay.
@@l.n.3372 yea I was more talking about the general community. NA top players are def doing their homework as well
as a oklahoma player/TO/general behind the scenes guy, the issue is the stagelist, most local regions will pick a stagelist from a major that happens at the start of the season and just, stick w it. usually these stage lists will favor characters who like flat, long stages and dislike tri-plats. IMO we should legalize 1 tri plat for every long flat stage in rotation, and should have 1 ban per flat long stage/tri plat
a ruleset w town, kalos, and FD for example should have battle field, yoshis, and dreamland legalized w 3 bans and dsr
Love the content, Hippo! Good stuff staying unbiased considering your main and region too! Keep up the great content
Same could be said for Bayo/Cloud in smash 4. Depends on your mindset, how you can improve and learn the matchup IMO.
I think it’s less “these characters are killing the game” and more so that the game is becoming more and more solved with the lack of updates, in combination with the game just getting old and less popular
Solved? The dlc characters, except Mythra and Sora, are overtweaked cancers.
@@justice8718 Mythra? Seriously? Shes arguably the most broken
@@justice8718 lmfao you didn't even bother to hide the bias how can you put mythra and not overtuned in the same sentence
I’ll tell you what’s killing it - same things thatve been killing it since day 1. Immense buffer windows (how many accidental tech misses turned air dodge off stage have you seen) combined with the worst input delay in the series, DI and SDI hardly mattering in 90% of all scenarios so most things are guaranteed if it works on a training dummy.
The games just too cut and dry
The P2W of Steve and Kazuya are just icing on the cake.
This. The horrible buffer system actively discourages me from taking the game seriously, buffered airdodges and aerial attacks especially suck. Besides that I think the game needs to put more emphasis on defense. Too many characters can TOD or deal ~70-90% off a single hit because of how abyssmal SDI and DI have become.
Also yeah I agree the DLCs are too strong. If the game at least got updated once in a while with balance updates, that'd help some characters become relevant, give the community something to be excited about. Game's balance updates are about as barren as TF2's at this point.
personally a huge fan of both matchups, they force me to play so much more precise to be able to win
^ smartest ssbu player
gas needs to go up so I can keep grinding kinda mindset
I’m personally a huge fan of rising gas prices because they require me to be so much more careful with my spending.
I love this mindset, it’s so much more positive and allows for a lot more growth as a player
Sigma male here
I agree with the overall statement and even the stat of people attending less tournaments is probably a bit skewed since that was bound to happen after a pandemic. On the other hand though personally I’ve almost stopped playing ssbu due to these characters. Yes you can learn the match up be even if you do it’s a game of cat and mouse playing against steve and you shouldn’t be in the Sam zip code of kazyua which is not how I and I’m sure many other enjoy the game.
We have no good steve's in my region (NWA, Danbi's old region), but we have multiple kazuyas with old players and new player alike improving out of no where. I can't speak on Steve for that reason, but Kazuya has for sure made my attendance drop. Yeah I can play the mu really well and win, but I'm just trying to go to locals to see all my homies and give maybe half the effort I have to against kazuya against other characters. Guess I'll pick up steve in the mean time to make it more even, but rn even with Aegis, it's just not fun. For reference I'm #8 on our most recent PR if that somehow validates my thoughts more
Been arguring with Smashers since week 2 of his release that Kazuya is S Tier. Its taken a long time but people are finally utilizing his kit
personally, as a zss main, I don't have the most trouble in the world with these matchups, but I think the underlying issue of why people hate kaz and steve is that it's just not what smash is to them. for example, melee. the game was fast, exiting, and everyone was just as mad about jiggs then as we are about kaz and steve now. I'm of the opinion that these playstyles will never be liked, but won't be banned either, as they simply advance the meta towards a more strategic, slower way of playing.
And that evolution will kill the game bc lets be honest. The first problem of brawl and smash 4 was speed
@@jasonlobo2350 those were naturally slow games anyway. Ultimate has a faster engine and game overall compared to brawl and smash 4.
@@jasonlobo2350 you must have not read the above comment at all. Bc the same point was made about Jigglypuff being slow and not what many players considered to be "good and decent", but Melee has not died because of Jigglypuff, in fact it is still thriving today!
i really dont like this way of reasoning. Firstly "They will never be banned anyway" is not argument at all in a dabate about rather or not their should be banned and secondly, just because you historically the game might "live on" with them in it, does not mean, that it is the best solution for the game and its community. Im sure there are also enough player and spectator in the melee community that still think the game would be more enjoyable without jiggs.
no dude its because theyre broken. Unbalanced. Overpowered.
I've been wanting to start going to locals here in DFW, but learning about the amount of Steve and Kazuya players here really makes me reconsider. I don't think they should get banned, I just don't have the time to put in hours just to learn those match ups.
Great content, well edited, good voice, good presentation, good information, entertaining.
I hope you make more.
Out of personal experienceabout half of the guys I used to go to tournies with quit competition cause they were so demoralized from having to slug through kazuyas, steves and randomly enough bowsers lol
These characters are just no fun to fight at all so I understand why no one wants to put themselves in a situation where you deliberately give yourself a bad and boring time on the weekend over and over again
There should be two tournaments. One for hype characters and one for lame characters. Make Steve and Kazuya fight Wii Fit and Duck Hunt, and the rest of us can have fun.
@@letsmakeit110
New tournaments:
Steve only, battlefield, no items.
Kazuya only, final destination, no items.
I think the main issue with Kazuya and Steve is that they require much more labbing/counterstratting than almost any other character in the game, and the smash community at lower to mid levels of competitive play typically aren't used to counterstratting to that degree. Characters like Kazuya and Steve are everywhere in games like Tekken (ironically), to the point where if you don't know how to block and punish one or two of a character's strings, you've basically lost the match (ex. King's death combo grabs, Drag's running 2 pressure, etc.).
The culture around counterstratting in Smash isn't as big as in games like Tekken, so "lab characters" like Kazuya and Steve blow up any average player who doesn't know the matchup. At a high level of play, should these characters be banned? Well, pro players are at the frontier of competitive play and should be counterstratting, and neither Kazuya nor Steve are overall degenerate to the life of the game, so I don't think there are any grounds to ban them.
As soon as players in the mid-low level of competitive play figure out the counterplay to these characters, they'll be just as meta as any other character.
You're right. I am a tekken player, and I totally agree. The thing is that most of the people playing smash have absolutely no determination. They criticize said character, for exemple kazuya, because he has a 0 to death(thats not a teue 0 to death btw, learn how to mix dis) while literally anyone can kill kazuya because of how bad of a disadvantage he has. He has no tools to escape juggle situations for exemple. But people complaining about kazuya don't know that, cuz they don't play the character. They don't know how much practice it needs to get 2 to 3 EWGFs . Because smash players are whiny. I mean, in Tekken 7, I don't remember many people quitting just because devil jin, akuma and geese howard were everywhere. The smash community is just too toxic, and I hate it cuz I lovedthe fact that I could finally play a tekken character in ultimate. The fcact that some people even think about banning him makes me think that sooner or later every TRUE 0 to death character , such aq peach or luigi, might get banned one day or another. If kazuya is banned, the future of smash ultimate will be sad, cuz banning one character lets some space to ban 2, 3 or heck, why not even 4 ! If kazuya or steve are banned,another top will take their place, ROB for exemple, then the people that were playing kazuya would probably begin labbing another high execution character, such as peach. Then when everyone will get peach 0 to deathed, everyone will ban them.
Finally someone speaking with some sense on the matter.
So there's never broken characters the require balance patches in Tekken? Because that's the biggest problem here is Smash isn't balanced with competitive play fully in mind so the last patches came out basically as the pandemic was just ending. I think what you said is mostly correct about Kazuya but Steve has advantages that no amount of counter play can overcome
@@christianbaker3564 I mean, it's true that in Tekken, the community knows that there will eventually be a balance patch, which could explain why we don't fret so much over every broken character...
@@pathtracker4944 That's the difference between a good and bad competitive fighting game. Smash Ultimate is and always has been a bad competitive game. However I do agree in most cases even in a bad game that getting good and counterplaying before screaming ban is the move. I don't think Kazuya is ban worthy, but Steve definitely is. Smash has a terrible history of broken competitive characters (since most of the games are bad competitive fighting games) and Steve fits that mold perfectly.
This is a good analysis video. I would add that there should be an expected drop-off in tournament attendance as the game gets later on into its life. With Kazuya and Steve being released so late into the game it does make sense to see tournament attendance dropping.
if steve lost his blocks and kazuya had a nerfed ewfg (something like no more free up smash), they would both be mid tier
Steve and kazuya won’t and should not be banned. If players don’t like the matchup than to bad. You ban characters because there’s no counter play not when the counter play is boring. If we banned a character every time too many people say their unfun to fight we wouldn’t have a roster.
Would Squad Strike as a main ruleset for SOME tournaments be a bad idea?
Feels like the main issue with any common threat lies with solo mains
Problem is that squad strike is less competitive, especially considering the format has been solo for so long. There would also be an unbalance with echo fighters, and even if you try to ban them it’s contentious where the line between clone/semi clone/new character is drawn. Players can also just pick up multiple hated fighters, such as Acola playing Kaz, Steve, and Luigi
Great video ! I definitely don't believe Kazuya is making specatators leave streams, that role definitely belongs to Steve. Kazuya is explosive and exciting while Steve is the complete opposite..
Kazuya is way more tame imo. He's honestly a fun matchup if you dont just wait to be grabbed or electric-ed, and for whatever reason (dunno don't play him) laser off stage is a universal habit that you can punish often with death.
@@quinnmitchell7819 I think it is because laser stalls offstage and has a decent range. Which can help in disadvantage.
Yeah but the same exact true 0 to death 3 times is not very fun to watch
At least i for my part can tell you, that i really dont like to watch kazuya. EWGF is just such a broken move with no flaws (except beeing hart to input i guess) and he way he kills out of EWGF-combos seems really cheap to me, since it kind of does not follow the rules of comboing in smash. I dont like steve ether but when people play against steve, i at least have the impression that you get rewarded for getting in, while with kazuya, going close to him basicly always favors him, which forces lame playstyles.
There's two types of lame characters. Characters that don't interact, like Steve, and characters that force you to not interact, like Kazuya.
"I'm not gonna sugar coat it" - Kazuya Mishima
I don't know how, but Nintendo manages to do this every smash bros. There is always 1-3 powerful characters that are in their own tier. Fox, Meta Knight, Bayonetta, and now Steve.
With regards to the last 2 characters:
ruclips.net/video/CSEw_AVfJBY/видео.html
melee isnt actually that bad. every character can be beaten, amsa fucking steamrolled with yoshi at tbh10
@@sg21yt I think that’s the case too for ultimate, Foxes can be beaten by a better player, and so is the same for Steve, Kazuya and Robs.
Melee Fox is not broken at all. Best in the game, but not broken.
@@sg21yt Amsa was playing like a god though. It's not about the characters being unbeatable, like Meta Knight, it's about them being able to steal games from people who are clearly FAAAAAAR better than them.
Thanks for this video, Hippo. It’s an even-handed analysis of some characters that have definitely diminished my enjoyment of Smash, and it helped me understand what I’ve been feeling. I just hate fighting Kazuya. I hate seeing him win. Ultimately, I think it’s time for me to walk away from this game I have loved my entire life. I love grilled cheese, but if there’s a severed thumb in it, I’m not gonna eat around it. I’m going to throw the whole thing away.
you can always curate how you play it instead of dropping it entirely. It's still a really fun party game with friends and there's a lot of modes you can make up in it like tag, raid bosses, just turning on certain items, limiting your character pools, etc. It worked for me once I started to lose interest in comp. Smash is a fantastic casual game still. It's the most fun when it's hilariously chaotic. I highly recommend using the stage builder to make stages for the things you want to try out, as the defaults don't always work well.
Why do you guys act like Kazuya is a no-skill baby character? He's only really good with EWGF, and it's so hard to do. I've been practicing it since the last splatfest, and can barely do it consistently.
Kaz and Steve are banworthy because they're both characters with insane punish games whose gameplans necessitate an insane amount of precision to navigate in the neutral game. Precision which is both not necessary for steve or kazuya in executing said gameplans and which the game engine of smash ultimate is *purposely* built to be incondusive to. Not only do you have to fight their insane move properties frame data, punish games, and fun $5.99 nonsense, but you also have to fight against the design philosophy of smash ultimate to try and execute the counterplay to all of that. Those who say steve/kaz are playing a different game honestly aren't far off. Of course, in the absence of any centralized body for smash, a ban on these characters remains pretty much impossible.
You've never played Kazuya have you? Basically everything you said aside from kazuyas punish game being good is wrong
If Steve and Kazuya get banned people will find new characters to complain about I do think Steve is the best character but he’s not 10x better than everyone else like smash 4 bayo
The gap isn’t even large at all you’re right. People in this community are just babies.
@@jamespa7193 facts
@@jamespa7193 straight facts
@@jamespa7193 facts
Ban them. The fact of the matter is that the burden of fighting against them is much much much higher than the burden of fighting as them. A lot more is required to beat them than to win as them as characters and the actual things that have to be done to do so are insanely boring and anti-fun. At the end of the day this game is two things primarily, a game that we want to enjoy and a sport that we want to spectate and it is detrimental to the fun produced by the game and engagement found in spectating the sport. There is no logical reason to keep it around to essentially not be mean to people who are hurting the game to play a competitive character, the nature of that type of person is to simply find the next best character anyways and that is totally fine. They just don't have to be doing it at the cost of everyone else.
Well said
I dont understand people who hate so much kazuya, yes pretty strong combos and heavy hiter but is one of the most punisheable characters, literally you can dismantle the pj if you know how he play, steve on the other hand is more difficult, making walls and camping is more frustrsting, hope in a patch they balance the durability of the cubes
You know what? I want to say yes.
Let’s not pretend like part of the reason smash 4 isn’t played anymore is because of clearly meta-defining characters like Bayo. It’s obvious that if characters like these weren’t there the meta and scene would be healthier.
But you know what, part of me is ok with saying no. Because it’s so obvious that Nintendo should just patch the game. But they won’t. So the easiest thing to do is just call Ultimate what it is: a top-heavy, unbalanced game not worth my time or the time of new players that will die out once the next installment comes around.
Chad response
Based.
Honestly a problem I could see surface if the community decides to ban Steve/Kazuya is the community... just being an absolute nightmare. I sincerely doubt that people would just sit pretty after the Steve/Kaz ban, and would probably want other characters targeted as well, because if banning characters is a genuine option, then where's the line? If we can ban those two, why not ROB too? Why not Aegis? Why not... etc. There isn't a clear line that separates characters like Kaz and Steve from the rest, they aren't outrageously broken like ST Akuma or something, and because of that banning them is suuuper risky imo
Bro just ban all the top tiers lmao perfectly said
There is a pretty clear line between Steve and the rest
Rob’s touch of deaths aren’t nearly as egregious as Steve and Kazuya. That’s the line. They’re basically overtuned Luigi’s
Steve I can make an argument for banning. Kazuya I don’t think is a ban worthy character at all
Smash ultimate is definitely not growing and viewership has dropped dramatically. This is normal after a game stops receiving support but not necessarily at this rate. I wouldn’t say this is slowing Ultimate’s grow but accelerating its demise because regardless of these characters the game is dying.
This community is so soft. There's no Stat you can point to that suggests these characters are op. Smash ult is no longer receiving updates and the people that like the game will stay and smash community is mostly casuals pretending they are hard-core comepototve players.
Kazuya went from being laughed at to now being complained about.
Steve isn't hard to fight but he does require you to pay attention and know how to deal with him and that includes which stage to ban.
They never played any actual fgs
Facts, I've been apart of the smash community since brawl the mentality of scene gets worse and worse, hot take: I think balance patches ruined the community...not gameplay wise cause it was needed back in smash 4 with Diddy/sheik/bayo and this game but it ruined our competitive spirit/drive to learn and get better that (imo) we had with brawl, with brawl what you saw is what you got, the broken characters we learned and got better at dealing with yeah there was discussion to ban MK but ultimately we didn't and dealt with him....love smash but all the whining about characters with barely any real results like the characters I mentioned is pushing me and maybe some others away
Steve and Kazuya will never be banned because it would be a completely different game without them. People who play other fighting games deal with characters who are *more* powerful than Steve or Kazuya on the regular without trying to ban them. Banning them in Smash would splinter the community between actual competitive Smash and Smash for people with bruised egos.
The actual real problem with ultimate is the lack of counterplay to camping and projectiles in general IMO. Parry is ass, what we needed was melee powershield. Really lame on the devs part to leave the game like this, I guess they thought giving some characters a reflect was good enough.
What makes it even worse was the nerf of defensive options from Smash 4 to Ultimate.
Smash 4 airdodges and rolls? Broken, but NOT because of how fast they were, but because of how much more committal attacks were.
Ultimate attacks are much faster, which already makes defensive options worse (comparitively), and nerfing them further by making them slower was just unnecessary imo.
There are too many scenarios where picking what should be the correct defensive option against projectiles just simply doesn't work.
You shield samus charge shot and parry it? Too bad, she can just grab immediately anyway if you're close, and you cant punish if you're far away.
Trying to get past shadow ball from mewtwo by rolling past it at ledge? Too bad, even if you dodge it he can just spam something else immediately after your roll ends.
In the majority of scenarios, there's practically 0-risk whatsoever for the person throwing the projectiles if the other player tries to use defensive options to dodge it, which pretty much forces players to just have better movement and never dodge instead.
this DEFINITELY was not knee jerk. They announced they've been debating it and having roundtables for the discussion since around the time the initial steve bans happened. Hell, even since before the testing bans during November and December. This has been a long time coming
To me, the biggest menace is definitely Kazuya; he not only is able to combo kill you at 0 percent, but he also hits extremely hard, fast, has many moves with superarmor, has a broken command grab that can suicide-kill very early, and not to mention rage drive, the best comeback mechanic in the game imo
Even at "losing" matches you can still gimmick your way to the W.
I forgot to mention he is the 8th heaviest character in the game.
He has the most disadvantages
@@shaghilathar3588 lol thats just so wrong. what are your arguements for that? Their are just so many characters, that have much worst disadvantages.
@@MrBobxxl Yes you're right, I did exaggerate. I should have said he has equal disadvantages to his advantages
@@shaghilathar3588 Bs, what are his disadvantages? Most of the cast cannot act out of their Up-B and most don't even have one that goes that high, he has a super long directional air dodge and is floaty so he can easily get back to stage from where most can only dream of. Half his moves (even his dash) have invincibility and the other half have super armour. Who can you compare him to? Who has all those perks? The ONLY thing is he struggles to land when getting juggled on occasion but that's literally a problem only 6-8 characters don't have to worry about so I ask you, tell me, what are his disadvantages, real ones, not "he struggles to recover" Wolf struggles to recover and he is a top tier.
I’m speaking on behalf of basic bitch Matchmaking here, It’s not an impossible matchup I don’t think anyone is really arguing that; I think most peoples problem with the characters is the Jank they have. Kazuya basically has touch of death combos and if read correctly and you get out of it successfully one interaction just put you at 60-80 percent which is kill percent for Kazuya but I also think that’s just a shoot probably in general but Kazuya takes it a step above. Steve has Minecart and and Blocks and can camp almost with impunity. At top level gameplay when people are playing objectively the best characters sure there are work arounds, but us, down here in the trenches. It is the most annoying god damn thing to fight and not be upset about. I don’t think most people think “Man that was a good game against the Steve player.” Most of the time they think “Why can’t I deal with Minecart, why are we 2 minutes into the game and the Steve player won’t interact.” When fighting Kazuya it’s more or less “oh cool I got hit which leads me into a 10 second combo and if don’t correctly guess the DI I need to do I’m dead” and if the top players are feeling it up there, then the bottom players are having it worse down here.
Dude mentioned it below, it's the lack of patches that are currently killing the game tbh.
I just have never understood why Nintendo stopped balance patches so soon after fighter pass 2. The vast majority of the roster had years of review and balance patches. How could you be surprised that there are balance issues when a decision was actively made to avoid balance patches without a long time to review the characters?
I can explain it for me (I live a bit north of Dallas for context). 1. The game isn't getting any more updates, and while I still enjoy playing it, it doesn't have the same feeling as before. 2. Yeah, knowing I'm going to match up against a Steve or Kazuya is a pain in the cheeks. 3. There isn't much of a scene here and this area is known for banning people over nothing. 4. Inflation, it's real bro and I can't waste extra cash to go 1-2 or 2-2 in tourney
Nah we need to ban Dedede so that no player has to suffer using dedede. It will be a gift to the community.
I'm from the iowa scene and I luckily don't have a problem of mains. There is 0 overlap in the entire pr including secondaries and honorable mentions
Kazuya and Steve are not issues. People just don’t want to learn matchups and alter their game plans like you have to to be consistent. The smash scene isn’t dying because Steve and kazuya exist it’s because smash isn’t a new game anymore and no longer is getting updates. As games get older they lose entrants. Just because the end of the support cycle coincides with FP2 doesn’t mean it’s the reason. Correlation not causation.
Correlation is not causation absolutely, but when the people are giving their reasons for no longer showing up or watching? Those reasons usually contain causation, and steve and kazuya have certainly made me much less interested in watching competitive
@@aelanarbrightfield6817 you can’t extrapolate a couple people getting mad at dlc characters (which happens all the time in every game) to the widespread disinterest in a competitive scene. It’s clear that Steve and kazuya are not the core cause of this disinterest. The game isn’t dying, at least not any quicker than should be expected
@@emmett_m Sure the game is by no real means dying, but watching mostly the same few characters fight again and again is certainly not helping the viewership
@@aelanarbrightfield6817 it’s definitely overblown tho. Smash has always had dominant characters and this doesn’t change a thing. People don’t think melee is any less fun to watch even though it only has a few strong characters
@@aelanarbrightfield6817 This argument makes no sense to me, since people LOVE to watch top players at every tournament play the same few characters fight over and over again. Also, the only character this even applies to is ROB, since he's super popular. People don't play Steve or Kazuya nearly as much as I see people play Lucina or Roy or Joker (at a local level). It's actually so funny, cause if you look at almost any other fighting game, you can see the same few characters appearing at tournaments, since the pool is much smaller.
I don't think that these are justifiable reason for banning Steve or any of them. I think that these characters have pushed the meta by a LOT, making mostly high and top players wanting to figure these matchups out and get better, I do see that lower level players would be upset at this by a lot. But I also think that there ARE other factors can be just things that are going on in their lives. Like maybe Toxic players, non supportive friends, etc. You know, many problems we go through today. These Top Tiers have become a very detrimental or amazing change to its meta, figuring out new strategies and implementing it into this game is incredible. I really do think that there is still a lot of growth that can be put into the game. Some players may just have to Open their Minds to this New Idea of the game.... and how it's played on a more competitive level now. Things definitely will change.
I feel like no DLC allowed tournaments could be cool, even as side events.
And while people can learn these matchups, wait until Steve’s and Kazuyas get more matchup exp. Riddles has been sweeping every pro player ever since he stopped using Terry and stopped whining about Kazuya not being “that good”
You didn’t answer what is killing the game though. You said that Steve and Kazuya are driving away lower level competitors which you admit is responsible for hurting tourney attendance and viewing numbers. That seems to me like it’s killing the game, even there are high level players figuring out the matchup. Our concern is the Large amount of the player base which are the low level players. The video was edited well but you didn’t answer the most important question are steve and Kazuya killing the game?
rob is not on the same level as steve and kazuya
Rob literally has twice the reps of both Steve and Kazuya and does considerably better at tournaments.
I feel like with all these broken characters now I just wanna acknowledge that ROB was a real demon online and offline so annoying and I always used to get cooked
Once you learn the intricacies and what he’s looking for it’s not that bad. You really have to play the MU a lot to get to that point though
@@eanderson9599 yea he does telegraph a lil more than a normal top teir
I'll be honest, as a spectator who watches majors rather than competes in them, I've never seen ROB as the problem. He's overrepresented in top 64 of majors sure, but you never seen top ROBs take home the tournament either. Players like Zomba, Anathema, etc haven't really won the tournaments that Steve, Pyra, Min Min, and Kazuya have. Only Zackray has won recently at a big major using primarily ROB/Joker. And ROB is also such combo food (Marss vs Zomba and Tilde vs Zomba have made ROB look much worse tbh).
But from the player competitive perspective, I can understand why ROB is such a menace because he's a good character with good perks and few downsides, easy to pick up and get good quickly.
@@l.n.3372 just because you beat rob in set play doesn’t mean he didn’t make u mad or annoyed by his moves or style
@@iiamkadel
That is true of probably half the cast of characters. Everyone has a matchup they hate.
You can't ban characters cuz they make you salty. You fully consider banning characters if:
A) they're overrepresented at top levels (plus local levels) in top 32 and so on
B) they win a significant amount of tournaments (say 30-50% of majors are won by this character)
C) easy to pick and use, thus no barrier for entry, new players can be carried etc
D) unfun to watch, kills the audience views in streams etc
would have loved to hear more details about *why* and *how* these matchups are degenerate. what makes them different from the top tiers in any fighting game? isn't a top tier, almost by definition, going to warp the meta around who can survive them? what makes these two so uniquely unfair, unfun, or bad for the competitive integrity of the game?
Kazuya can kill you off of 1 interaction. (consistently)
Has moves that are invincible, making it impossible to approach properly.
Has consistent kill confirms that no other character has.
However I'm not really sure if he really needs to be banned.
As far as Steve goes, he has no bad stages due to him making blocks anywhere. Has very little issue in disadvantage due to blocks.
Can combo and kill off 1 interaction due to blocks.
Has a projectile that is a 50/50 that can go through shield. And new shit keeps getting found all the time.
Not much, people just wanna whine. It's like Tekken 7 where people whine about Akuma a lot but, like Kazuya and Steve, are overtuned at best, and are relatively petty "problems" compared to actual problems the respective games have (Both games having a bloated roster, T7 having too much no skill characters like Katarina, Claudio, Noctis, Eliza, etc, T7's mechanics being severely watered down, Smash Ultimate's poor and archaic game design choices, such as the characters having Melee movesets in Ultimate's engine, weird hitbox issues, only DLCs getting the refinement the rest of the game desperately needs) imo
Kazuya is basically Luigi without a horrible disadvantage state. Luigi landing a grab is akin to kazuya landing literally any of his 40+ attacks.
I think the problem with Steve is that he can move while using tilts and jabs. Combined with his blocks he has limitless manuverability despite having one of the worst jumps in the game.
Getting insane kill confirms or chains of attacks has always been a product of hard reads and learning the matchup. These are bare minimum mechanics in every character except for Steve and kazuya cuz they can just kill with zero effort.
I don't think Rob is as much of a problem as the video says he is because his moves are extremely telegraphed which makes him less likely to be played by the average player. His skill ceiling is so much higher than any other character though so that's why he's at the top level of play so much.
The problem with "learning the matchup" is that the most egregious example being Kazuya boils down to a knowledge check. If you know how to fight them then it feels and looks like you're fighting against wake up DP on Ken. If you don't, well, then you're fighting wake up DP on Ken. It's like fighting a camper but little mac style.
I really wish they would just ban steve and kazuya. I personally think they are both OP and sooner or later they will be #1 and #2 (or at least both S-tier) on most of the tierlists, but that would be fine, if they were not so damn lame and really unfunny to play against. Pyra/Mythra are very broken too, but in their essence there are still a "normal" smash character, that you can outplay and play against in a "normal" way. I think the average spectator (with some smash knowledge) can probably watch a set with them much easier without cringing about how obnoxious it seems to fight against.
You can always bring the argument of "but you can just learn the matchup" but that really does not makes it better, if the correct way to play against them makes forces you to play in a really annoying or lame way while they can do whatever the f they want, because of their privileges. Also even if you play your best in the MU, most of the time, the odds are still against you and you have to guess right alot more often then the steve/kazuya player.
Basically i think you should ban them because it really is not fun in my eyes and hurts the hype around the game alot both for the player that dont want to pick them up themself and especially for the viewership. Same goes mostly for Sonix imo btw.
Well i guess i will have to turn out the stream everytime one of those characters show up, to somehow show the TOs that there is a difference in how much fun it makes to watch.
As a dfw player who is interested in coming to my first local, this is disheartening lol
Kazuya is fine with being legal, I mean yeah he’s strong but characters like falcon or ROB are able to close out stocks at the same percent or even earlier. As for Steve I think it really just has to do with how their meta develops in the future. In my eyes steve could be just as oppressive as sm4sh bayo. If results start to get way out of hand and there’s an over saturation of Steve players, we’ll need to ban him for the sake of longevity. However, I don’t really see kazuya having the potential to be that insanely broken, you play against him like you play against any “touch of death” character (kind of an over simplification but these characters incentivize defensive play). As a spectator I honestly love to watch that dynamic, it’s been a staple of the game from the literal beginning and it’s an archetype that I want to stick around.
When it comes to banning them, I really do think it's the better choice, at least for now as an experimental path. Back in 2007-2013 when competitive smash was just getting off the ground, people usually didn't make jobs out of this
But present day, you have commentators, TO's, and competitors making a living through smash. When these characters start slicing up tournament entrants and viewers, TO's, commentators, and players are risking their livelihood in some cases
I don't think that being "accepting" of new players to the game overrides the importance of everything else. At the end of the day, when it comes to pleasing the majority, I'd bet that when you divide it up, pleasing the Steve/Kazuya players ONLY is MUCH less important than pleasing...everyone else.
agreed.
Well put
I think an experimental ban would be fine if it were that easy to put into and out of affect.
You have to consider the massive repercussions it would have on the community as a whole though. Not only would it divide the community even more, and get a lot of people to quit outright, but it would also set a precedent for the community that characters can be banned. People would probably then go on to complain about every top tier that they don’t like facing trying (and potentially even succeeding) to ban them. If you tried to go back on a ban, that would also be extremely controversial, as the people who don’t like Steve would get even more mad than they are now. Then they would take it out on the Steve mains. Onin already got death threats for playing Lego man, if provoked, even worse things could happen.
Also, the only people (that make a living from SSBU) that are currently being affected by Steve are the pros, viewership has not been significantly affected. It’s also the pros job to do everything they can to win, which includes learning Steve counterplay. It’s very obvious atm whether a player has prepared for a match against Steve, and when utilizing proper counterplay, pros win a large portion of the time. Obviously they’re not going to win every match just because they know counterplay (no character is like that), but it does even out the matches a lot more than I think people realize
@@silverpotato4272 it is actually that easy for a ban to be implemented. There is no "TO council," every TO can decide to ban or change something any time, at a weekly or a monthly, a local or a regional, a 10 man or a 1000 man bracket. If you gave it a month, and banned FP2 for 4 weeklies, you can see what happens then and then unban them. It's that simple. It's a LOT less rash than you're thinking tbh.
Kazuya is hyper aggresive, which is a playstyle loved by viewers of any e-sport (or sport in general). Steve, however, stalls the game until he gets diamond, and even with that his movement is so clunky and repetitive he might bore newer viewers (and even experienced ones).
Kazuya is not hyper aggressive. Not at all. He is build to be a slow tank that crawls up and hopes that you just hop into his ewgf or make a mistake while trying to approach him or maneuver around him.
@@MrBobxxl "crawls up and hopes that you just hop into his ewgf"
So pretty much whiff punishing? And you are going to completly ignore that dealing good chunks of damage out of one neutral win isn't a Kazuya exclusive thing, as we've seen Fox perform 90% damage strings during the last TBH, not to mention characters like ROB or Wolf do the same thing with his tools. Yet you only complain about Kazuya, how curious.
Good video, imo only Kazuya is really problematic, the invincibility on a lot of his moves create a ton of inconsistency
@Joshua Suh Your talking about top level gameplay, this is from a balance perspective
@Joshua Suh balance and top level doesnt go well together. Kazuyas toolkit is not balanced at all
Partial intangibility. without it none of his moves would land
@Joshua Suh the others make no sense but for kazuya its true. He basically has s on every move lol shit gets wack when he interacts. And men smash is already wack now add kazuya to the mix xD
@Joshua Suh like 90% of his move have some sort of intangibility but yeah
Kazuya is weak in the air and strongest on the ground
Steve constantly puts down walls and keeps space
Idk if this can help anyone, but hey at least it’s good practice, sort of.
I stopped going to tournaments because of min min and aegis.
There’s not enough Steve’s to ban him. Kazuya is a touch to death character who is invincible majority of the time and there are twelve and a half thousand ROB players.
Edit: I think we should just remove all of DLC Pack 2
Remove Smash* because we never deserved this game in the first place
People quitting because they hate these characters
"This game is not dying"
Shot wont get banned tho, smash 4 is a great example of dlc basically ruining the watchability and playablility of top to mid level play.
It's sad but the truth is, the fact they arent healthy for the game is not a good enough reason for them to be banned.
If you ban characters, suddenly all that training goes out of the window. And chances are, there aren't any other characters that those people find fun to play as they're the more unique characters on the roster. You're going to lose players no matter the direction you go here, and then the debate becomes "Who do we, as a community, value less?"
I think there needs to be more grounds before we start banning characters. They need to be on the same levels as Brawl Meta Knight: having no losing matchups. Reminder that there was a time where Meta Knight was almost all of Top 8 and winning consistently. If we're getting Steve and Kazuya players constantly winning majors, then I believe there's room to discuss bans.
There has been 31 major tournaments so far this year. The results for Steve and Kazuya are as follows:
Steve:
Won: 6*
Runner-up: 1
Kazuya:
Won: 4*
Runner-up: 2
*in two occasions, acola won two tournaments while featuring both Steve and Kazuya (MaesumaTOP#7 and MaesumaTOP#9).
i live just outside of ft worth and having to drive 40+ min to freaks or shockwave is just not worth it anymore
Tell me your name is John without telling me your name is John.
a little late but imo they should just make certain tournaments for only non dlc characters and just keep some for all characters.
lol I don't watch Kazu gameplay myself because it's all the same every game. I don't want to watch a Steve player play with himself for 4 of the 7 minutes per game either.
I think the game needs to be patch at one more time
they need to tuned down kazuya s' insane touch of death '' Electric is probably the only move that needs to be nerfed ''
And obviously nerf steve .
Rob probably need a nerf or 2 as well .
I don’t mind fighting Rob and Kazuya personally but Steve is very unenjoyable
Just practice the matchup nobody said ban Joker whenever MKLeo was beating everybody
It's not really the same thing. MKLeo was already the best player and nobody could really just switch to joker and see an instant boost to their results the way you can with steve
I wish there was a DFW smash game hosted biweekly at FX that still receives patches! Oh wait
When variety starts going to the wayside for the most privileged characters to net easy Ws, those are early signs of the scene going down the tubes. Especially unfortunate for a game with almost 90 characters. I don’t this this series will ever get it right. Smh.
If a game has 90 characters with vastly unique movesets maybe imbalance was inevitable?
I think steve's crafting table needs a nerf.
Players need a reason to destroy it and steve needs a reason to protect it.
Take away minecart/anvil if crafting table is destroyed and make it take longer to respawn
Also, he needs to lose his collected resources after losing stock.
if steve gets a diamond and dies, he can upgrade to diamond weapons during invincibility. that's BS
if you really think about it the game would be a lot better without dlc characters. dlc characters are designed to be unbalanced and have a gimmick too them. outside of banjo the rest of them are pretty unfair
Plant?
@@Milesrgomez is he even really a dlc? Lol thought he was a free character?
I don’t think kazuya and Steve should ever be banned. Let’s be real, to be a good kazuya, you have to GRIND inputs and combos. Kazuya rewards good players for being… good!!!!!
Exactly! You shouldn't be punished for being a skilled player, just because it's an annoying matchup.
Wait, I can understand Steve, but how is Kazuya killing the game?? I thought he’s only like A tier. Wasn’t Riddles the 1st Kazuya ever to win a major?
He’s extremely ez at low and mid levels and his inputs with a couple of exceptions are relatively easy. And do extreme damage and kill extremely ez. He is top 20 character in the game.
It took smash 4 bayo a year and five months from release and a year and two months from the final nerf to win her first big tournament. It took Kazuya a year and two months from release to win his. If smash 4 is a road map, Riddles is the first of many
Dude, there is only 2 top Pikachus in the whole world and they don't have the best results even though that character is top 4 on a bad day. The results argument is not relevant since every top player agrees Shulk is top tier yet he has basically zero results and reps(Kome aside).
Ahh, I wasn't aware of these nuances to the situation - preciate you all informing me :)
As a Steve main, Im playing other characters as a contingency plan for when Steve gets banned
Just realized that affect prize pool,
Prize getting lower and lower these days
Personally I think the fact that people are still talking about how toxic to the game Steve is and the fact less and less people are defending the character should say more than any single opinion
They've definitely ruined the game's enjoyment for me. Won't watch sets with them and if I get matched online with them, I either SD or if I'm feeling really bitchy, I try to make it miserable for them to play and waste their time.
It’s crazy how y’all complain and cry to ban em cuz you’re losing to literal kids lmao just adapt
In any game. Bad players always find an excuse & try to find ways to make things easier for themselves
"X kills the game! Let's ban X!!"
Smash has had this problem for years with DLC. DLC characters are usually so overcooked that you'd rather pull your own teeth out instead of fighting them.
And the bad fanbase is the cause for all their porblems. Look at the people defending these awful characters. Or even saying nah don't ban their moves. Smash players are unfortunately really stupid.
ALGORITHM BROUGHT ME HERE
So now that Steve and Kazuya have been banned for Texas, are we to assume Rob is next? I got from this video that Rob gets some dang good results.