Ukraine - a tragedy of conflicting narratives |
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- Adrian Verbrugge in conversation with Nicolai Petro on the war in Ukraine. This conversation was recorded at the University of Rhode Island.
Links and show notes:
- Order the book 'The tragedy of Ukraine, What Classical Greek Tragedy Can Teach Us About Conflict Resolution' hier: www.degruyter.com/document/do...
- Also watch Adrian's conversations with Jeffrey Sachs: • #1523: "Western values... , with Glenn Diesen: • #1577: The Double Stan... and with Douglas Macgregor: • The war in Ukraine and...
--
Steun De Nieuwe Wereld. Word patroon op petjeaf.com/denieuwewereld of doneer op NL61 RABO 0357 5828 61 t.n.v. Stichting De Nieuwe Wereld.
Alvast bedankt.
--
De Nieuwe Wereld TV is een platform dat mensen uit verschillende disciplines bij elkaar brengt om na te denken over grote veranderingen die op komst zijn door een combinatie van snelle technologische ontwikkelingen en globalisering. Het is een initiatief van filosoof Ad Verbrugge in samenwerking met anchors Jelle van Baardewijk en Marlies Dekkers.
De Nieuwe Wereld TV wordt gemaakt in samenwerking met de Filosofische School Nederland.
Onze website: denieuwewereld.tv/
DNW heeft ook een Substack. Meld je hier aan: denieuwewereld.substack.com/
--
#ukrainewar #russiaukrainewar #nicolaipetro #geopolitics #history
Ukraine was OK before the western organized coup in 2014 regardless of all historical differences. It was enough to have a moderate government able to cooperate with all countries if it was profitable for Ukraine. But the West decided to take control over Ukraine.
No, Ukraine was a fragmented thing already, that is why it was easy to for foreign interest to interfere.
Ukraine was ok vs. it is now - but in fact, it never was ok, even before 2014. It could have been a great example for being a bridge for Russia and Europe, thriving, growing. But it failed miserably from Day 1 on. I guess the oligarchs are to blame. And unlike Russia, they didn't have anyone to subdue them.
@K2teknik. Yes, cultural and linguistic tensions have always existed between the Western and Eastern parts of Ukraine.
Wtf... shall we talk about facts? Russian troll.
@@K2teknik. Ukraine was divided, but it had a moderate government. All differences were decided by voting like it had to be in a democracy. It was enough for the West to stay away from these differences and not finance the radical groups. I live in Crimea. I saw how Americans were involved in Ukrainian politics. First Orange revolution in 2004-2005 when they installed a president Yuschenko married to an American wife. They organized a reform in Ukrainian education and raised a generation of haters for Maidan 2014.
The current war is a direct result of the American politic, both arrogant and ignorant. Or this war is exactly what they wanted to raise their weapons sales and weaken Russia.
Dutchman here. A great conversation, particularly because an Ukrainian picture was presented of different narratives and how these narratives were geographically distributed by historic processes. I appreciate, as a positive part of the conversation, that the geopolitical contribution to the crisis was not explicitly part of the conversation. It does not mean, however, that this geopolitical component is not there and I think it is essential to include how foreign powers are trying, present tense as we are still in the middle of it, to use Ukrainian "diversity", i.e. the existence of pluriculturalism and narratives, against Russia with the ultimate goal of those foreign powers to overthrow the presidency of mr. Putin (Medvedev, Peskov, Lavrov + the ruling class in Russia) and the balkanization of Russia. This, of course, with the purpose to have more resources controlled by western ruling elite and industrial tycoons, which are interwoven with the western political elite. I think it would be great to learn more about that too, also because it is interwoven with some of the Ukrainian narratives and not, or less, with others.
Good comment , i agree with you about the western imperialistic interests
We have heard from the collective West's leaders that their goal is to break into parts. The Ukrainian population has been completely brainwashed and is being used to fight against Russia.
Look up how central african countries are kicking out the french and americans, and bring in the russians, the west’s options for resources are shrinking by the day, making it lose its competitiveness against China
Very surprising to hear comment like that from a Dutchman, I live in the Netherlands and have been absolutely shocked that 100% of the Dutch I am surrounded by falls for the narrative of the mainstream media without giving any thought about obvious questions, for them Russia is bad, Ukraine is good and there is nothing more to add to that, anyone who even tries to think with their own head is immediately labeled and discarded. Sad situation, really.
@@zharkoo Ignorance, in the Netherlands, is almost general.
The fact is Ukraine was a artificial country created by Lenin and the Bolsheviks historically it never existed the only part of Ukraine that was never a part of Russia was the west Ukraine because for centuries it was a part of the Hapsburg empire until after the First World War. Ukrainian language before the USSR was only spoken in the western Ukraine.
Bullshit, check how long Lwów. was in H "empire,' , look on historic map
@@krzysztoftomczak4433lvov is western ukraine, so he’s correct.. look up your geography before commenting
@@filmdude5058 hm . . probably u r from ??? ;-) Easy irritated when it comes to the fact that 'Ukraine' is just a border . . isnt it?
@@user-hn9tq5yf2n Even Poland was a part of the Russian Empire before 1917 not to mention western Ukraine.
@@willemdederde6669yes, ukraine translation is borderland.😅
Nice research, gives lots of information, but has bias opinion of someone who suffered greatly from Russian. You didn't mention Petliura, you haven't explained how Chmielnitsky, apparently Kossak, got his Polish surname. Western Ukraine never existed, it was part of Republic of Poland till 1939, after the WWII incorporated to Soviet Union/USRR. Krym or Crymea, NATO was planning it's military base in Sevastopol. How have you suffered greatly, because of Russians, I as Pole could say it the same, but we suffered greatly because of Ukrainian nationalists, 75% of my family were murdered by you greatest patriot Bandera.
I agree it was mostly a fair view of history but he does try to paper over the attrocities of the banderites both during WWII and after the Maidan revolution.
I only read from wikileaks that the US wanted to establish diplomatic presence or something along those lines on Crimea. Which ofc is already sus to me and I could absolutely see them aiming for a NATO base. Anyways, if you have anything more specific on the topic than what we know from the wikileaks, could you point me to it?
@@nikola4362 - "Anyways" is not a word. Do you write "ain't?"
@@johnsmith1474 Why do you think I care if its a word. Now its a word, get over it.
American citizen here. I apologize for my government, which went crazy after 9/11. Noam Chomsky's propaganda model for media is evident in America, as discussed by the professor in the video. A super majority of Americans live in what I call the American Media Bubble. That is how they are persuaded year after year to vote against their economic and foreign policy interests. I believe there are similar kinds of manufactured consent issues in Europe, but at a lower level.
U guys better make sure Trump takes office so this chapter can be closed asap
They were crazy before 9/11, it was them together with mossad who planned and executed it.
@@filmdude5058 Why don't we take care of our part of the mess we're in ?
@@hansjohan3150 because europe is a bunch of vassal states of the US, our masters are in washington
@@filmdude5058 No Robert Kennedy!
Hello from Ukraine! In reality situation is even more complicated, Ukraine is poorly studied and poorly undestood.
Unfortunately, the fact that US always use the diversity in countries all over the world to start wars or/and create coups. Divide and conquer. However, we all know such diversities can also be united by respect, education (understanding) and good will.
@@ellengran6814isn't that like "wahabisme"? Is as old as Warfare. As using prisoners in war. But totally true the West is Master in it.
What is your opinion on forbidding the Ruusian language in public areas ? Speaking by a majority in (east) Ukraine.
Ty and hoping for peace as soon as possible.
@@Bigliever
Most of Eastern Ukraine is now under Russian occupation and Ukrainian laws are irrelevant here. Instead of this there are laws and cultural norms against Ukrainian language, Ukrainian media and Ukrainian culture.
Most of Eastern Ukraine is free from western occupation . Ukrainian language is one of state languages in Crimea, for example. It's not true that Ukrainian language and culture are forbidden by Russia. You can find them even in Moscow. Don't listen to propaganda.
People are able to choose which language they use and study in the school..
Couldn't agree more but the role of CIA and Soros absolutely ignored.
That's because they didn't have much impact. The whole idea of the two conflicting narratives is that they came from people with agency. The ukrainians who went out into the streets to oppose what they saw as a Russian political coup truly believed in what they were doing. - It is also true that Russia did try to engineer separatism throughout Ukraine that simply failed in a lot of places.
@@markheithaus - What? No Ukrainians "went out into the streets to oppose what they saw as a Russian political coup ..." where did you get that junk idea?
Ukraine had a democratically elected president with elections coming up within the year, and he swung Ukraine a deal with Russia that was far more lucrative than the Western offer. Maidan protesters were a small minority of people in the country when the US paid Azov militants to start breaking heads, lighting cops on fire and shooting people, before they broke into the Parliament building. The coup government was a US funded nazi ridden joke, and when it was replaced by Poroshenko he started killing Russian speaking Ukrainians as a sop to the Azov cadre he needed to stay in power. Wake up.
@@markheithausVictoria Nuland was heavily involved so was CIA
@@Lunde859 sure, and so was the Russian FSB. - The point is that it was a popular uprising that the CIA couldn't have generated or controlled if they wanted to.
The FSB tried to foment various coups throughout Ukraine, prompting complaints about the lack of support from Russian speakers. In Odessa Russian speaking Ukrainians shut down the Russian coup.
You can't use a simplified narrative of CIA or FSB "mind control" to strip people of agency and responsibility.
Important interview! ❤ I wish the interviewer would keep quiet. His interruptions are very distracting
So from his Odessa observation post, did the professor see the Kiev coup government as fascist? What did Russian speakers there think about it? Note that the Odessa Massacre started as a 'Anti-Maidan' protest against the coup (information tables in front of the Ministry of Labour building).
Slight correction: the Odessa massacre took place in a Trade Unions building. Agree on all points.
@@alexanderkolesnik6942 both correct: left activists set their stall outside and retreated later under attack into the Trade Union building.
Greetings from your Eastern neighbour. After Douglas MacGregor, talking to Prof. Petro is another outstanding interview partner.
Great work, keep it up
The only part of Ukraine that was not part of Russia was the western part of Ukraine.
Kinda in the middle, a Cossack Hetmanate of one Bohdan Khmelnytsky, pledged allegiance to and joined the Russian Tsardom in 1654.
Kiev itself fell to the Golden Horde in 1240, was then taken by the Lithuanians in the Battle of Blue Waters in 1363, to finally be bought back, together with territories east of the Dnieper River, from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Tsarist Russia in 1686 [Purchase Deed technically still valid today].
From the 14th to the 16th century Ukraine was part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
@@MrRight1000 Stop misinforming lazy people about Ukraine, and read the history very well before committing, portions of Ukraine were ruled by Lithuania, Poland and Russia. In addition, Cossacks controlled a largely self-governing territory known as the Hetmanate. Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century.
@@user-id8cu4pc5z "Stop misinforming lazy people about Ukraine, ..."
-- Haha... Rather authoritarian, soviet style statement, wouldn't you say? 😅
@@MrRight1000 I'm referring to the habit of lazy individuals being constantly misinformed about what is going on. The only authoritarian nation attempting to rewrite history is the United States of America. In twenty years, the US will undoubtedly assert-with complete certainty-that the Soviet Union dropped a nuclear weapon on Japan during WW2 and i am sure that majority of western lazy uninform population will believe.
The interviewer talks to much and should listen more, no additional value in his remarks.
Good observation. Thje interviewer has been told so many times :)
Yes this is his modus operandi.
Look in the description below the video. It states: "Adrian Verbrugge in conversation with Nicolai Petro on the war in Ukraine". So it's deliberate to be a conversation and not an interview. I kinda like it that way. We have to be careful not to look at it with a certain frame we all grew up in.
He always does that , seen for a few years.
This is exactly what I wanted to say. The Interviewer interrupts a lot thus making it impossible for the interviewee to complete several meaningful thoughts and topics.
Would be so great if you didn't keep interrupting the guest
Absolutely correct.
Thats Adrian, he likes to hear himself talk 🤣🤣
There are so many layers to this story. Nicolai is teaching important, very complex history here... I must however hasten to say that my in-laws (family) who lived in Rostovski Oblast and the Kuban went through "Raskulachivanie"/ "Раскулачивание"---they ended up on collective farms & in the mines. Most survived until the Nazis came, They think of themselves absolutely as Russians ... with wild Cossack blood mixed in ....
There are two different sorts of "COSSACKS". The Ukrainian cAssacks are not the the same as Kuban's or Don's cOssacs...even spelling is different, with an A, not an O, in the Russian language. They have nothing to do with Russian cossacks, who were indeed of a similar historically sociological origin; they did run away from impinging serfdom laws and were exempt from such in exchange for being warier peasant frontier settlers on the borders of the Russian Empire; they were obligated to join the armed forces at call. Kuban cossacks were an essential part of the growing Russian settlement in what now is Eastern Ukraine and the Rostov region of Russia, which was only commenced by Catherine the Second in the 18th century as a ball work against Turks. All those territories belonged to Ottomas until 18th century. By this time cAssacks were out of existence they were incorporated into the Russian empire. "Taras Bulba" is about cAssacks, and "The Done Run Quiet" is about cOssacks. The easy way to remember.
Do they have Polish names, as Chmielnitsky did?
Nicolau totally ignored Taras Bulba, didn't suit his narrative, he was trying to convince us that Bohdan Chmielnitsky was a Kossak with the Polish name.
The difference between Cassacks and Cossacks is the same as between Kiev and Kyiv. They are spelled differently.
Actually most Ukrainian Cossacks were moved closer to Caucasus by Catherine the Great. During last 30years (and especially during last 10 years) Ukrainian history is rewritten, people are brainwashed, that's why we see some special Ukrainian Cossacks. They even translated Taras Bulba to Ukrainian language and replaced Russia with Ukraine. That's how special Ukrainian Cossacks are created.
Cossacks spelled with an "o" in Ukrainian, but with an "a" in Russian. And that's the only difference - it's the same word/term.
Cossacks are the people, outlaws most of the time, who run away (be it from Russia at the time, or Poland, or Crimea...) and settled at the border (of Russia, Poland, etc). And though they settled, they kept their "military" origins. Think of Stepan Razin for example. A legendary leader of a gang (from the state point of view), who robbed the whole of the Caspian region (incl. a famous Persian hike).
Ethnically Cossacks were predominantly Slavic (Russian, Polish), but with lots of "additions" - from the western and central Europe, Turkey/ottoman, the Balkans...
Throughout the history of Ukraine was always part of the Russia empire.
From the 14th to the 16th century, Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
A part of Ukraine
Do you have a point?
...it was? WOW! Who would ever have guessed! Who did you hear that from? Or, since you sound like a very bright guy, What book did you read that stated this?
@@user-id8cu4pc5z
Not an argument for Russia or an argument against Ukraine. Because something existed in the past it doesn't mean that this must be preserved now. Reminder that slavery was considered to be a cultural norm throughout history.
How about allowing the guy to speak without repeatedly interrupting him.That way you learn more.
Just as the author is about to say something interesting, he gets interrupted.
Het resoneerde enorm bij mij dat het volk opstond bij het verloren vertrouwen in de politiek. Ik heb namelijk het donkerbruine vermoeden dat onze westerse/europese politici hetzelfde bezig zijn, en ze hun standpunten met agressie en macht zullen willen verdedigen.
I agree. I feel that the natural EU pluriculturalism is homogenized by a top-down imposed control system through the use of invented and propagandized crisis and fears around the themes Energy, Health, Food, Climate, i.e. from the top straight down into the microlevel of society, which is the powerless individual.
Dit is een fantastische uitzending het geeft een duidelijk inzicht van een geschiedenis waar we veel te weinig vanaf weten , ik hoop dat ook social media hier naar kijkt
Ik hoop met name dat onze "main stream media", de staats gesubsidieerde, er naar luisteren!
Ad, hou toch eens een keer je mond!!! Laat iemand eens uitspreken, ik wil horen wat je gast te zeggen heeft. Iedereen weet dat jij veel weet, maar hou eens op dat in de etalage te zetten!!!
Ik proef hier een onderhuids ongenoegen. In mijn ogen ten dele terecht. Zeker, in een gesprek zit Ad op het puntje van zijn stoel en er zijn interviews dat de balans zoek is, maar ik voel ook heel duidelijk daarin de passie voor het uitdiepen van het onderwerp. Zonder deze passie zou de nieuwe wereld denk ik niet kunnen bestaan. Het verwijt dat iedereen het wel weet zegt mijns inziens meer over uw ongenoegen. Het gesprek moet ook binnen een tijdsbestek. Ik heb met heel erg veel genoegen naar beide heren zitten luisteren, 2 mannen die ons veel van hun boeiende kennis meegeven. Dank hiervoor!
Ik wil De Nieuwe Wereld en Ad Verbrugge bedanken voor dit ontzettend interessante, intellectuele en bewustmakende gesprek. Dit vraagt om meer, en ik hoop dat meer mensen de tijd gaan nemen om zichzelf te verdiepen in de materie van het Oekraïne-Rusland conflict. Dit is een essentiële opgave voor wereldvrede, en De Nieuwe Wereld heeft daar aan bijgedragen. Bedankt en ga zo door met het goede werk.
Excellent! Shared it. I find Professor Petro the consistently sane, objective, and fair voice on this subject.
He's also blind to military reality.
They omitted one very important aspect of the Bolshevik period - so called “ukrainization” of the predominantly Russian speaking population in Eastern and Central Ukraine.
They omitted many aspects. Professor Petro looks good only against the background of outright liars masquerading as historians working day and night to construct and maintain the false western narrative.
Historic view based on Idealistic philosophical thinking...
With some good point's,.
No one will fight for capitalism
Ukraine is a weak state, a corrupt state, ruled by oligarchs.
It's also a central area of security concern for Russia (and its oligarchs).
Identity weaponized by foreign interests.
The US saw the opportunity to bleed Russia through Ukraine?
In the 2000's Russia and Ukraine was the most integrated countries in Europe.
Has the ordinary Ukrainian benefited by the break up of the USSR, the civil war or the invasion?
Look at the Ukrainian GDP from 1991 to 2024!
The selling out of Ukraine by the current political elite (to the US) will cost the Ukraine dearly (economic and human).
If you can predict anything from history.
I think Ukraine will be thrown under the buss - once the current inter-imperialust war end/is lost.
What does that tell us about the Western elites?
Finally an adult in the room, thanks. Sad thing is this falls on the mostly deaf ears, heavily manipulated by misinformation, people here in the west. Greets from Australia
Thanks for your wise words!
"You're beginning to talk like Poetin. That's dangerous!" . To show how smart those guys are, NOT.
Pfff wat een vreselijk irritant gesprek, Ad die er als gewoonlijk weer doorheen zit te blaten zodat die Nicolai met zijn verhaal van de hak op de tak springt. Ad is veel te onrustig, kan niet luisteren omdat hij al weer aan het bedenken is wat hij wil zeggen. Ad is gewoon niet geschikt als interviewer. Niemand hoeft te reageren met, "o het is geen interview maar een gesprek". Dat argument heb ik al 100x gehoord en moet ik inmiddels van op de pot.
Ben het volledig met je eens, ik had het niet beter kunnen verwoorden. Door het voortdurend interrumperen van Ad wordt het een chaotisch en soms zelfs onsamenhangend gesprek. Het gebrek aan "fluency" van het Engels van Ad maakt het er niet beter op.
volledig mee eens, net als je mee bent in het verhaal is Ad er weer om het verhaal te onderbreken met zijn "wijsneus"- opmerkingen (om toch maar te tonen dat hij er eigenlijk niets van weet) en kan je "fluiten" naar het vervolg van het verhaal. Dat heb je als de interviewer zijn gesprek niet degelijk heeft voorbereid, geen verhaallijn heeft en zichzelf zo graag hoort praten. Mijn deelneming aan de studenten die examen bij hem moeten afleggen...
agree, it was dificult to listen; if you want to ask question, wait before guest finishes and then ask the question - just not smooth conversation as it should be
Idd Ad blijft blunderen hij moet zich telkens laten gelden; katholieken en protestanten in Nederland; over de vezuiling in Nederland. Snapt hij nu nog niet dat het compleet de verhaallijn van de gast torpedeert en door die zijstapjes de luisteraar ook belemmert het verhaal van de gast te blijven volgen? Hij moet vragen stellen die een verduidelijking en toevoeging zijn op de kennis die de gast probeert over te brengen op zijn publiek. Ad zijn rol moet ondergeschikt blijven. Hij volhardt in het niet begrijpen. Ook het interview met Colonel Mcgreggor verknalde hij op precies dezelfde wijze. Een geweldige gast trouwens. En dat maakt het nog erger. Doe er wat aan Ad!!!!
Cannot agree more. The potential of this conversion was dramatically diminished by constant interruption and talking over Mr Petro. The questions were good, I wish, however, that we were allowed to listen to the answer in full.
Crimea has always been ethnic Russia, by the so called annexation there whas not even one shot lost.
Was Crimea Russian in 1100?
@@xxvxxv5588 yes. Chroetsjov who was an Oekrainer gave it to Oekraine round 1950 in the USSR time. It was in the thougt that the USSR always would exist.
Less than 6 per cent of Crimea’s written history (from the 9th century BC to date) belongs to the Russian chapter. Before 2014, Crimea was under Russian control for a total of only 168 years.157 In fact, Russia is just one of several powers that have aimed to dominate the peninsula. At the dawn of its history, Crimea was a Greek land. It later developed at the intersection of different civilizations and empires. Until the mid-15th century, the peninsula was a space of unique cohabitation between the Khanate of Crimea, Genoese colonies on the coast and the Principality of Theodor (Byzantium) in the southwest. Thereafter, the khanate expanded and became, for over 300 years, a dominant power as a protectorate under the Ottoman Empire. Crimea was an Orient in miniature, with a Turkic-Muslim culture.
Russia invaded Crimea in 1783, as part of a westward expansion seeking control of the Mediterranean and the Middle East. The ambition of Catherine the Great was to establish a new Byzantium in Constantinople, with her grandson Constantine as its emperor. Defeat in the Crimean War of 1853-56 temporarily halted Russia’s continuing territorial aspirations in the region by leading to a ban on military arsenals in the Black Sea, although within 14 years Russia unilaterally abrogated this obligation and continued its military build-up.
Imperial Russia and later the Soviet Union were mistrustful of the indigenous population of Crimean Tatars. The Russian policy was one of forced displacements, colonization and Russification to enshrine dominance. The peninsula’s demographics underwent change following the forced outward migration of Crimean Tatars after the annexation of 1783 and the Crimean War. A further major deportation in 1944 marked a continuation of the long-standing imperial practice of expelling native populations and taking over their lands. According to the last official Ukrainian census of 2001, 60 per cent of the population of Crimea consisted of ethnic Russians, while 24 per cent were Ukrainians and 10 per cent Crimean Tatars, the three most numerous groups.
@@janjorgendevries2927 there have been referenda and over 80% choose to belong to the Russian Federation. The same happined in the Donbass with the same result. They have proposesed to held new referenda under UN controll but that was rejected, for the outcome would gave the same result. The genocide against the donbass, 14.000 victims, through the Kiev regime is even not mentioned.
@@janjorgendevries2927 your opinion is clear to me, why not talk about the coups that the USA arranged since ww2, 70 to be extact, not to mention all the wars they started and the colour revolutions with the help of Soros.
Dear Adrian, thank you for this very interesting conversation (not an interview). Please consider holding back your urge to interupt the chain of thoughts of your guests for the sake of exposing your own knowledge. It looks like a sign of insecurity, as if you are fishing for compliments from the 'master'. You don't need it, dear Ad. You are an intellectual too, we know it. There's no need for rushing.
Very diplomatic comment 👏
You’re mistaken Dutch communication style for blunt insecurities. But it’s ok because you intended well.
I'm halfway now, very interesting, and till now I don't recognize "the exposing your own [Adrian's] knowledge" since he (Ad/Adrian) is mainly citing from Petro's own book, isn't he? He is even surprised at 42:51 about some new [thinks Adrian] very interesting information that is only mentioned in a footnote and says "I learned something new you didn't write about it [in] your book" and Petro answers "well you didn't check [...] the footnotes, that's good I have so many". And indeed they have 2 hours, so Adrian wants to really get deep into everything...
Schitterende uitzending Ad. Ik zie in de commentaren nogal eens voorbij komen dat Ad NIcolai te weinig laat uitpraten, er teveel zelf doorheen praat . . . . ik vind dat juist prettig en getuigen van gelijkwaardige inbreng in een gesprek. Er is een heel groot verschil tussen elkaar onderbreken en de ander het woord ontnemen.
Helemaal eens!
We talk about the lack of Palestinian representation in Western Media, but we also have a lack of diverse opinions regarding the Ukrainian perspective. Thank you both for helping to educate us about the Ukrainian people whose voice we want to hear.
Почему такой большой историк Николай Петров не сказал, что 120 лет назад не было такой национальности - украинец. Даже на западной Украине, во Львове выходила газета «Русская Правда». Они тогда считали себя русскими. Украинство - это политический проект Австро-Венгерской империи. Там тех, кто называл себя русскими, помещали в контрационные лагеря. Не ленитесь, поинтересуйтесь историей того времени.
Because great historians generally stay away from kremlin political propaganda. Nikolai makes reference to the "Russian Imperialist narrative", the above would be part of that.
Kind of similar thing in former Yugoslavia starting all the way back in Roman empire times. Religion and different occupires of that teritory divided more or less the same people that went through three wars in 20th century. More or less the same language is now also 'divided' and got political names. That did not happen with English which is still English in England, USA, Canada, Australia. Ukranian language looks similar to Russian (to me) but I cannot judge how much is different. Very similar recepies used to divide people and turn them against each other in former Yugoslavia.
Can you recommend an English resource for learning more about this history? Or an easily accessible Russian resource? I can probably use a translator app.
@@WhateverrocksyourboatSearch for The Internment of Russophiles in Austria-Hungary
@@maxinfly thank you!!!
And what about Bandera???
Precies, nationale held in west Oekraine en wij steunen het regelrechte fascistische regime in Kiev. Hoop dat mijn reactie blijft staan.
What about Victoria Newland, the CIA and the Bandera militant fighters that backed them.
ruclips.net/video/uVVRccerdW0/видео.html&rco=1 nothing this bullshiters claim that UA nazi are "heros" and want with this "heros" enter to EU
@@dineke346Voorlopig staat uw reactie er nog.
Je hebt gelijk.
Als er in Vlaanderen op een betoging een Vlaamse Leeuw te zien is wordt er al van extreem rechts gesproken.
Of "bloed en bodem" rood en zwart.
Net zoals de vlag gebruikt in Oekraïne...
@@Bigliever heb ook al 2 x een uitgebreidere reactie getypt, mbt Bandera maar die stond er nog geen minuut.
Too much unnecessary interruption by one of the participants. Can't watch. sad😢
Prof. Nicolai Petro is zeker de moeite waard om naar te luisteren. Echt top van DNW dat jullie dit soort gasten steeds uitnodigen. Wij wachten op het interview met V. Poetin.
Wat zou je hem vragen als je de kans kreeg?
Tucker Carlson , last february , interviewde V. Poetin . Aanrader
Wat is de waarheid
@@reinduhr Geen idee. En als ik eentje had zou het ieder geval niet over politiek gaan.
@@edmundfrancispietrodleon9825 informeer , inlezen en oordelen , geduld uitoefenen en ZELF bepalen , niet laten misleiden door onze media. Veel geluk.
Je kunt ook het buitengewoon informatieve en gedetaillerde boek van Kees van der Pijl lezen, met 1000 voetnoten. Uitgegeven door Tom Zwitser van Uitgeverij de Blauwe Tijger. Dat boek heet overigens ook De tragedie van Oekraine en is in meerder talen vertaald.Kees wordt hier ondergewaardeerd, geeft lezingen in het buitenland.
Hij gaat tegen de gevestigde ideologie in en dan wordt je genegeerd. Het gaat niet om waarheid, maar om ideologie, helaas. Daarom laten veel mensen zich niet overtuigen.
@@TinusTegenlicht precies, in deze verwarrende uitzending worden belangrijke feitelijkheden simpelweg niet benoemd. DNW is wat Jensen msm alternatieve media normt
@@dineke346 Wat een onzin, je kunt toch niet alles benoemen en bespreken in een uur tijd. En in andere gesprekken kwamen bepaalde zaken wel naar voren, zoals bij McGregor en Kees van der Pijl op DNW. Wat wordt dan niet benoemd volgens u?
@@TinusTegenlicht dat de CIA Maidan coup zorgvuldig is voorbereid en uitgevoerd met behulp van bewapende fascisten die op de aanwezige politie en op de demonstrerende burgers schoten. De mensen als McCain , Verhofstadt, Nuland en Biden due de demonstraten maandenlang een glorieuze toekomst in Europa voorspiegelden, plus miljarden steun toezegden. De bevolking kende niet anders dan corruptie en werd een democratisch, vredig welvarende toekomst voorgespiegeld. Er was niet sprake van een neurale tendens vanuit de bevolking om zivh tegen Rusland te vertzetten.
@@TinusTegenlicht Van der Pijl noemt uitsluitend feitelijkheden en noemt man en paard en niet de aanname dat er vanuit de bevolking een tendens was om zich meer naar Europa te wenden. Hij beschrijft van uur tot uur de toedracht van de Maidan coup. Ik noem slechs Mc Cain, Nuland, Verhofstadt, van Baalen, Biden en de gewapende Bandera milities. Dit is maar 1 voorbeeld.
Ну, Вообще-то, была Донецко-Криворожская республика.
This host is too much, time and time again the guest wanted to move to his book .Several times this host drags his conversation to himself. Yap yap yap. Why bother having guests when you take over. So bloody annoying. Rude and aggressive.
😂😂 right.
Actually he's quite good and conversational, all useful stuff.
Tragedie van Oekraïne
Kees van der Pijl toch....??
Een zeer leerzama discussie, zelfs voor iemand als ikzelf met al een grote kennis van zaken. Maar voor mensen die onbekend zijn met de historie van dit grensgebied Ukraïne moeilijk te ontwarren. Toch zal dit moeten mensen om tot een duurzamen vrede te komen.
Try not to interrupt so much, makes it difficult to listen to. The interviewer seems to have forgotten that we are supposed to be given some perhaps new, interesting knowledge. You make it hard…
He will never learn. So many people told him dont interrupt so much. Its good to summarize the chain of thought now and then during the conversation.. But Ad interviews are more of a demonstration of his own chain of thought and give his version before the guest could make his point. Thats why this conversation is very hard to follow.
Heel hartelijk dank DNW en speciaal Ad voor dit leerzame, verhelderende gesprek. Wat fijn dat jullie er zijn.
Very difficult interview to follow because the host keeps interrupting. Oh lord ! Have to watch this with head phones
This man knows quite a lot. Maybe the questions were a bit too general for the time available. An unprepared college for 45min about half a millenium of difficult history is not going to be that succesfull for most people. Nevertheless, this men kept his story organized, he really knows his stuff.
During the liberal democratic state period (1945-1995), the difference from today was that there were thousands of news companies and many networks - including new cable players - and to maintain a fairly free flow of information, only one had to buck a trend - plus they all had a huge financial impetus to be that 'loose cannon' to the establishment every now and then. The movie 'Network' posited that the change was from a news editor with final edit, to the finance department - of course this is in a climate of shrinking corporate incomes and a flurry of huge corporate takeovers -> ie. monopolization. (Lenin perhaps :)
watch also nima on dialogue works, he is the most amazing journalist with the most interesting guests on this. Also on China, Gaza etc And don't forget to cancel your TV subscription guys, just a waste of time.
agree, much better host, Nima
Going deeper into the interview, I wish there was a way to zip up the mouth of the constantly interrupting "interviewer", so that the interviewee can talk. When we are in the presence of an expert, we want to hear him talk !
The interview provided profound insights into the ongoing conflict, underscoring the complexities and deep-seated issues that perpetuate the strife. It’s clear that the path to resolution is fraught with challenges, especially considering the current stance of Western leaders. Their reluctance or inability to intervene decisively prolongs a war that has already claimed countless lives on both Ukrainian and Russian soil.
Dit was het meest interessante gesprek van dit jaar tot nu toe. Proficiat.
Bedankt
Pretty difficult listening to an interview when the journalist isn’t able to let the guest finish his sentences / thoughts 🙄 especially with a guest like Nikolai Petro who is a gem of knowledge on this issue.
its not a journalist, you follow a conversation between two people and there is a camera
@@dnaindex 🤷♀️ didn‘t you get it? Call it „the host of the channel“ then 🙄 It’s just rude to behave like this host did I’ve never experienced on other channels I watch. Btw the channel info says the channel would be a „initiative between a journalist and“ two other people. 😉
Heel lastig te volgen.
Really a great dialog!
Thank you both!!!
The best discussion on Ukr. Wish his book was available on Audible.
Heel interessant. Dankjewel Ad
I found this discussion very interesting and enlightening. I also think it avoided discussing the strategic implications that are involved between NATO and Russia. Ukraine may be able to enjoy freedom, but I believe Russia will never tolerate NATO membership.
Nicolai Petro does not know the history of Russia, everything this guy is talking about is false, even my 7 years old boy know the Russia history very well.
He thinks, he knows Ukrainian history.
I just stumbled on this excellent post. I just wished the interviewer would stop interrupting the guest, and allow him to express his thoughts.
The day the coup happened, many top western leaders were in Sochi with Putin glad-handing at the ceremonies of the XXII Olympic Winter Games.
great conversation, very informative, and provides a "way out option"! This conversation aligns with Donald Trump's plan to end the war and get around the table.
Great conversation. Keep on, keeping on.
Very useful for perspective, thank you. Appreciate this format.
So nice to listen to well read gentlemen.
Clashing narratives is de titel van mijn masterscriptie filosofie
Vrienden graag jullie hulp! Kunnen jullie een logische gespreksindeling / inhoudsopgave maken en hieronder posten - dan kunnen we die gebruiken? Gewoon minuut aangeven en titel hoofdstuk suggereren ❤
Misschien even aan Ad vragen? Wie zijn "logische gespreksindeling" kan volgen moet nog geboren worden... Hij hoort zichzelf zo graag en kan niet luisteren naar een ander. Sorry.
Verbrugge’s zelf gecreëerde gespreks chaos opruimen?
@@danyholtappels8355 Een eigenschap van bevlogen mensen is, dat ze heel gepassioneerd kunnen zijn in hun gesprekken. Ik kon het gesprek prima volgen en ik houd daarbij in gedachten, dat zonder deze bevlogenheid DNW er niet zou zijn. Ik ben Ad daar zeer dankbaar voor.
@@annekedercksen7071 dan ben jij de geknipte persoon om Jelle te hulp te schieten want ook "arme Jelle" is in dit gesprek helemaal "het noorden" kwijt.
Hartelijk dank!
As a Swedish child my perception of the people east of Germany and West of Russia were that they are all kin and the only thing that made them different from Russians was that Russia was the biggest entity therefor maybe a bit of a bully. This view included the Balkans.
Being an opponent of the USA is dangerous, being it's friend is deadly.
What are you trying to say with 'this view included the Balkans'. What Russia has to do with Balkans? Balkan is occupied by nato today. There are no Russians there. Nato bombed former Yugoslavia, not Russia. It was part of nato expansion. Some balkan countries joined nato against people's will, Montenegro, Macedonia.
@@drnda2007 As a child I didnt know this I just perceived the people as being the same.
Russians are less spoiled by the western woke ideology. In Russia men are men, women are women. They are not bully, they are normal. The West is bully when they are trying to spread their rules all over the world including Russia. They managed to do it with Ukraine and now you see the result. Because the West is not only arrogant, they are ignorant without understanding of history and culture. Ukraine was a peaceful and happy country before the western organized coup in 2014.
@@sliptrikk3018 You need to learn World history.
Joseph Roth is geboren in Polen, maar dat gebied is nu Oekraïne. Er zijn mensen die zeggen dat dit gebied weer terug moet naar Polen en ik heb begrepen dat Polen dit ook graag terug wil.
Hongarije claimt ook een deel, oekraine wordt opgedeeld
@@filmdude5058Is it right to see Ukraine as an artificial state made out of various bits from former empires? In short, a typical buffer-state that had to remain neutral at any cost. Alas, the nationalist clique in Kiev already started cheating about that in the 1990s. Extremely pushy, corrupted, and dangerously revengeful guys... Definitely unreliable partners.
@@fabiengerard8142 yes
Thanks. Good interview. Enjoyed it.
From this interview I get the impression that the Ukrainians are difficult people, hardheaded and impossible to negotiate with.
Many thanks for this conversation!
actually not bad and sort of unbiased analysis but there's that frequent manipulation or misunderstanding that results in confusing Russians with Soviets - even Stalin is somehow Russian
Finally someone stating historical facts while explaining this conflict
Interesting conversation.
Nice discussion about the history.
Both seem a bit naive in their belief that parties only have conflict because they fail to see the other side's point of view.
Most politicians are psychopaths...
Zeer verhelderend gesprek 👌👍👍
Bedankt! Heel interessant !
Thank you very much for the very clear explanation of ukranianinism in historical perspective.
Also big dawg great conversation but stop interrupting so much dude is the expert let his train of thought go
Sorry Ad, ik waardeer je enorm, maar ik denk dat jouw Engels gewoon niet goed genoeg is om op de jouw eigen manier een gesprek te voeren. Het is moeilijk dit gesprek te volgen, het voelt niet alsof je onder woorden kunt brengen wat je bedacht, zoals je dat in het Nederlands wel vaak zo mooi doet.
Verder denk ik dat je wellicht aan het begin van dit soort gesprekken beter kunt aankondigen wat de bedoeling is: geen interview, maar een gesprek waar jezelf ook aan deelneemt. Dat brengt de, wellicht buitenlandse, luisteraar, en je gesprekspartner in het goede verwachtingspatroon.
They're just regurgitating all the popular platitudes, memes and slogans we've heard a billion times about the war. Apparently, these two fellas just love to hear the sound of their own voices.
jammer dat de invloed van de US er niet in voor komt. Verder een interessant debat
'radical extremists from the west and amoungst some intellectuals in Kiev as the centre of political and intellectual life in the nation' - so in fact this half of the political divide choose to throw out the 1991 constitution; now all the legal arguments you hear on the neocon / fight-Russia-to-the-last-Ukrainian side, falls very flat. Why I call it the Kiev regime today.
Spot on.
Keep the Americans and the British out of their oligarchy? :)
(and the Russians - who were in no position to do that at that time - they were up to their eyebrows with Americans and the British)
Interesting interview, despite the most annoying interviewer, who kept constantly interrupting in barely understandable English.
It' very important people get knowledge of both sides. This war must not have begun. Usa, EU, have to understand what is happening and when began It. Russia could have been in Europe, but nobody wanted It. If not destroy what survive from that Big country. And now, this country dont trust in nobody. But we need to say countries how they must live, breath, eat, think......
"Een verdiepend gesprek" kan in het Engels worden vertaald als "an in-depth conversation." Hier zijn enkele alternatieve vertalingen voor "een verdiepend gesprek":
"A profound conversation"
"A deep conversation"
"A meaningful conversation"
"An insightful conversation"
Afhankelijk van de context kunnen deze vertalingen passend zijn.
Ad onderbreekt teveel..🙈
Weer een top gespek
Too many interruptions by the host. The professor has a great deal of knowledge and I wanted to hear where he was going with his stream
Chapeau Ad
Let the Professor speak!
These are all historical , political debates which make no sense now. The truth of the matter is that the overall Ukrainian people decided to join the EU for the only reason that they have seen Poland, Romania, Hungaria etc benefit from being a member of the EU and returning to Russian influence and domination such as Belarussia with a puppet dictator at the lease of Putin will bring no economic nor any freedom at all. There are several movements all over the world of regions who want to be independant such as Catalonia, Flanders Scotland and most of all many etnic regions inside of Russia who want to separate from the Moscow dominance, but no independant country is likely to split up parts of his sovereigny. What would happen if suddenly California or Texas would vote for separation from the USA,, I bet the army would also be sent in. Many ppl speak Russia too in UA but fight as well to get Putin out and if Putin gets his way first thing he will do is ban the whole UA culture and language by force. There is no justification for the brutal invasion and attrition caused by Putin who is a criminal and thug after what we have seen in Tjechia, Georgia and the carpet bombings in Syria to support Assad , another war criminal+dictator. When Putin is done, Lukashenko may also pack his bags, and many regions in Russia will appeal for independance. These war criminals and brutal dictators who live in multi billion dollar palaces, billion dollar yachts + lavish life style while the population is nearly starving, we really have had enough of such bandits.
Any chance of getting an interviewer that will listen? Very unprofessional
The FSB is still a thing.
I am just wondering if it is so that we can/should use history to determinate how the future must be ? I do not think so. Just because somebody claim that "This piece of land belongs to us/me because our/my ancestor (well a selection of them and only from a selected time-span) was living here sometime in the past", man it is a dangerous approach, but I do understand the value of the argument from the person that makes it, but at what time-span is it right to use this kind of argument, one generation, two, three, ? Because if we think about it then we all are coming from east Africa some 60-80000 years ago, so we are all invaders of the place we are living at in some sort or the other, we can't really claim"this in my land because my family have always been living here". Don't get me wrong, history is interesting but I think it can only be used to explain how we ended up where we are, not to explain why things must be in a specific way or what direction to go.
Prachtig complex en compleet
We all know why it is untold. Some guy made it up! Any guesses.
Dear Adrian, please hold off your urge to interrupt your guest every minute. Your position should not be to argue with them. This is NOT a debate. As the host you should just ask probing questions let them make their points. I got very annoyed watching this video. But I commend you for your effort to bring alternative narratives. Cheers,
No mention of Kim Philby / naive
Your Apple Podcasts are not available in Russia for some reason.
❤❤❤