@@Hydrogenblonde Believe it or not, not everyone runs a modern engine. Also, on those modern cars with interference engines, most of them are going to get totaled from a few dinged body panels or failed electronics gubbins. And I bet the factory timing chain will be in perfect shape when this happens.
I changed oil in my Fiesta as recommended: every 20000 kilometers. And guess what? Nothing bad happened. Replaced timing belt at 150000km. Trust car manufacturer because it's lie that he doesn't care what happens after warranty period ends.
That was back in 1980s when engines used 20w50 mineral oil. It's now as out of date as Mr Kilmer's other advice. I owned a 2003 VW TDI for 18 years and a 2007 petrol Mazda with a timing chain for 12 years. They've had oil changes changes every 10,000 miles or 2 years which ever came first. Did most of oil changes myself using a suction pump through the dipstick tube. Both have given no engine problems. The TDI is on 160,000 miles still with the original turbo. Unless there's a very, very, very, very good reason to change the oil like you track race the car just stick with the recommended milage or time interval. Unless of course you work in a garage and make good money from people changing their oil every few months and want to keep that cash cow going.
I just sold my old Hyundai diesel, no issues with timing chain, no rattle or slap. 290,000 miles. Recommended oil change is at 20,000 miles, but I change at 10,000 mile interval. Use only top brand, fully synthetic oil.
I had an i30 diesel; oil changes every 20,000 miles, sold the car with 140,000 miles on the clock. My current car is an i30 1.4l petrol that's covered 136,000 miles with no issues.
I have a fleet of Hyundai Ponys. they all have chains (the ones I haven't swapped to 4G63 engines anyhow, so most of them) and I've had ~14 of them and serviced many dozens over the decades. Not a single one had any problems related to the timing chain, one even had a link stamp removed due to a link ripping out.
@@1man1guitarletsgo Still standard to replace whenever though as still underperforms both on power and eco stats as wear takes place as timing goes out a little more every journey tots up the old mileage so pocket on fuel effected, and as he eluded too you can't always detect the wear from sound alone as this is often masked by other sounds coming from a running engine.
@@1man1guitarletsgo Yes it depends on the driving style so congrats on you soft application of the accelerator then as too much stabbing or hard application of the accelerator causes timing chain snatch to some degree, and well good oiled chains with good frequent servicing with the oil changes paramount as obviously oil degrades with mileage and time as well as the good manufacture of the chain.
I've seen timing chains last over 500 000 km. Most important is regular oil changes. No more than 10k kilometres with good quality oil. Unless the chain is noisy, it's probably still better than an aftermarket chain. A well cared for engine with a silent timing chain isn't going to suddenly snap a chain.
I have still original chain, 585tkm. I use the cheapest 5w-40 oil and change every 15-20tkm. Then again, usually i drive highways 55km to work, so the engine gets hot every time. Driving short distanses on the city would need shorter oil changes.
I drive Octavia Combi 1.6 FSI, now at 460 thousand km with original chain. No rattling whatsoever. I change oil at 20 thousand km with 10W40 because I drive mostly extra urban, no highway. I almost never have redlined it. It is 5-gear manual transmission with most of the driving at 3000 rpm. I think driving style does matter a lot.
RUclips channel "I do cars" has dismantled several engines and plastic chain guides are never been any problem. Which was very surprising to me also. 90% of all his cases it's crankshaft bearings and reason is some kind of lubrication issue.
I have seen issues with those guides. 3 times so far. In one case the guide was broken in 4 or 5 parts and basically blocked the engine. Surprisingly, in 2 out of 3 cases, no serious damage was caused. But that's a lottery anyway.
@@KasperiVonSchroweI think there may be some selection bias here. He gets engines which have been abused and often failed early because of this but may still have useable parts; older engines probably have little to no useable parts so you never get to see the guide wear. I do agree though that those guides seem remarkably wear resistant.
@@KasperiVonSchroweThere have been many broken guides on his videos, one recently where the broken guide went into the pickup and starved the engine of oil.
I had a 2010 Suzuki SX4 1.6 which I bought with 50k kms and had it for 10 years. I sold it earlier this year with 400,000kms, still driving perfectly and totally quiet, no noises, original chain. I am very particular about servicing and maintenance. The car used 10W40 semi synthetic, I changed oil and filter myself always at 10,000kms. Regular oil and filter change is the life blood of an engine.
Yes, it's important for owners to realize that the "manufacture's recommendation" in the manual isn't the same thing as the engineer's recommendation to reach the maximum capability of the engine. The manufacturer wants to advertise "low maintenance." The recommendation in the manual has been massaged by the marketing department to reach the optimum profit balance of warranty length and best appearance of "low maintenance." As you said, the manufacturer cares about the car reaching the end of the warranty _and_ with as little maintenance as it takes to get there.
I notice now that they stopped caring if a car needs a lot of repair during warranty. Cars keep hanging on lifts for months being 1-2 years old. Also, 10 years ago I never heard about engine or transmission replacement during warranty. Now it's a common thing.
Manufacturers intervals should be treated as the absolute maximum interval between changes, much shorter intervals are recommended for prolonged engine life. No one ever killed a car by over servicing it !
@@DmitrySapko I suspect the manufacturers have calculated what percentage of within-warranty failures they can accept to meet an optimum profit balance. And the dealers are the main losers in that calculation.
Toyota mechanics reuse the timing chain if the engine needs to be opened. They only check the color of the markings: yellow is OK, non-yellow means the engine has overheated, and the timing chain needs to be replaced.
At 270K MILES my old Jeep inline 6 is still running. I've had multiple old cars with high mileage pushrod type engines (where the chains are short) and never replaced a timing chain. In the old days, engineers had less data on component life under different conditions, so they apparently often played it on the 'safe' side to avoild warranty costs. Now that they can predict lifespans more accurately, they have more opportunity for 'fine tuning' everything to fail at once, outside the warranty period. The early belt timing engines had the belt OUTSIDE the engine where it could easily be inspected and replaced. Now complex expensive disassembly is required. It seems like we're going backwards.
@@goforitrazz It's a very short chain, and no elaborate tensioners needed. Stretch is proportional to length, and there is much less likelihood of destructive harmonic vibrations as it wears.
@@H33t3Speaks very true. That's one reason why wide safety margins were built into the old engines, and it's easy to keep them alive. With 14:1 compression, the ONLY thing protecting the engine are the computer sensors. One malfunction and it's toast.
Mechanical engineer here. I had a similar concern. I searched for, and found, venerable old Kawasaki 454 LTD motorcycle: the reason for this specific model is because they scrapped drive chain, it has belt final drive (like Harley). Zero driveline service! The bike is 1986 vintage, nearing 40 years old, and belt with 40,000 km still seems in excellent shape. Yet, the motorcycle engine has a cam chain. It also has top-end rattle. The cam tensioner is "old style," it is a ratcheting type with spring. I corrected the rattle by loosening off the tensioner (externally-mounted), until the ratchet "clicked" once, then tightened back up. Top-end rattle is resolved. Next time I inspect valve clearance I will inspect cam chain tension. I have 2008 Chev Malibu, it has 3 timing chains. One master, and two slaves that each drive half of the V-6. This all has to come apart to replace water pump and oil pump, so as usual: if any pump develops a problem, here is the opportunity to replace the timing chain system. Each of the 3 timing chains has its own tensioner. The tensioners are NOT the old ratcheting type, they are "hydraulic lifter" type: same as you show at 2:55. Engine oil pressure is applied to the back which pushes the plunger and keeps the chain tight, even as the chain "lengthens" due to wear between pins and side plates. The pressure is maintained by an integrated check valve (not shown at 2:55), just like hydraulic lifters. This system works EXCELLENT - so long as the engine oil is good quality, and maintained appropriately. When the engine oil becomes contaminated, it tends to leave varnish deposits, or to carry grit, or to become acidified, which can cause damage to any of the lifters or any of the cam chain tensioners. If a valve lifter bleeds down you will hear as prominent ticking noise, as the cam has excessive clearance and "slaps" the valve lifter for every engine rotation. If a cam chain tensioner bleeds down, you will hear cam chain rattle, and eventually the cam chain will skip a tooth (or jam between sprocket teeth, and become broken as shown at 3:24). Valve clearance builds due to wear of the valve seat inside the cylinder head: similar to how cam chain "stretches". It is normal, it is expected, and is compensated by hydraulic lifters. CONCLUSION: buy "good" oil, "good" oil filter, and have this changed regularly. Oil testing is becoming something the owner can do, one is inexpensive "transmittance" tester where you immerse a probe into the oil and it shines a light through, to detect particulate contamination. Testing for moisture can be done simply via hot plate "crackle" test, with 160°C hot plate. Compare a couple drops of new oil to a couple drops of old oil, see how much each sputters (moisture causes acidification of oil, causes oil additives to deplete, etc).
Wow, that's great info, thanks a lot. Yes, people seem to not understand that oil doesn't only lubricate pistons but does a lot of other super-important job.
Subaru tech here, but we use hydraulic chain tensioners with a pawl & rack cut into one side. This is supposed to keep tension when the pressure bleeds down, and does a solid job, from what I've seen.
I suspect I may have a "valve lifter bleeds down" - fast ticking (like a sewing machine?) coming from ONE side of a V6. 3.6L GM Alloytech engine, 224k km's. History of neglect (one oil change was between 40 & 50 thousand), and had once run WAY LOW on oil (to the point it was making horrible noises on the "up ramp" in a car park - I suspect the sump pick-up was dry on that momentary angle). Still, I've reduced oil consumption from 1.5 ltrs per 1000 km to 1 ltr per 3,000km (which I can live with) by doing a series of kerosene flushes to de-sludge it. It was worth a try ahead of a replacement engine! (ps, if I DO have a valve lifter issue, is that something which will become terminal, or can I expect continued life out of it?)
It's more accurate to think of it as chain wear rather than stretch. The material worn off the contact areas of the chain results in the chain getting longer but none of the material in the chain has actually stretched
@@DmitrySapko Just like we say the sun is going down, and not that the earth has rotated in a relative angle in which the light doesn't shine over the curved surface, so that you can't see it on sea level from your position at a certain length degree :)
Yeah I dunno what brain scientist came up with "stretch" when it comes to timing chains but everyone uses that term and the majority of them don't understand the material is not actually *stretching* . You can't really blame them because of the stupid term being used by everyone.
@@rolandm9750 I believe that the chain don't stretch, but the tensioners can wear allowing the chain to be sloppy. when there is enough slack the chain can jump a few cogs allowing piston valve contact, good by engine.
@@tgvoaden The chain *elongates* --that it definitely does but the idea of the metal "stretching" is where it goes wrong. That it does not, which is why it's a stupid *term* to use. The tensioner is indeed there to take up the slack as the chain wears and gets longer (not "stretches") but eventually the chain will get worn enough the tensioner cannot compensate just as you say. The way the chain gets elongated is because the pins in the chain wear against the holes they are in, which causes the chain to get longer overall, not because the metal does any stretching, which is what the term "stretch" makes people (erroneously) believe.
Timing chains don't stretch. the pivot links wear and the holes gets larger, this makes the roller on the chain pins sloppy. This effects the sprocket and they also wear just like a well used bicycle chain. So its "Pivot and Roller link wear" not chain streach.
Lots of rollers in a chain, (like Motorcycle chain) This can wear the oil quicker. So my camchain engines always have fully synthetic oil with 5-6K mile changes.
You're only playing with semantics here. Hold a new chain next to a well-worn chain and the difference in overall length is obvious. You can see the very same thing with chainsaw chains, which is why we must occasionally re-tighten them.
So true. All manufacturers replacement intervals for all parts/fluids are far too extended and will lead to premature failure. Cut mfg interval in half to be safe. It is not in the manufacturer’s interest to keep your car on the road forever. Replace oil/filter every 5k miles, gas or diesel, fuel filter 40k gas/20k diesel, coolant 30k, brake fluid 30k, transmission 40k, etc etc. Excellent points on timing belts and chains!
I agree. People don't see this oil change as such a means of saving a lot of money. To replace a timing chain is expensive. Oil isn't. I had an Audi A6 3.2 with 280,000 miles before I donated it. Ran great. I just sold my Audi A6 TDI with 170,000 miles also ran great. I use MOA too for extra lubricity. Of course, we all complained about the timing belts. Now I wish we could use them again as they were a lot easier to replace.
I used to work for Morse Chain (division of Borg Warner). We made timing chains for Ford and others. Both roller chain and inverted tooth chain (on the 6 and 8 cylinder engines). We never had any failures or even negative feedback over many years. We also made timing belts for OHC engines. They stretched over time and needed replacement, but again not one complaint. If you are rebuilding an engine, it’s no additional trouble to replace the timing chain or belt.
As someone whos spent the last 40+ years repairing them I can tell you that the problems with chains are by and large limited to certain manufacturers. The main culprits being Nissan,Mercedes,BMW/Mini,a variety of VAG engines,citroen/peugeot,to a slightly lesser extent Vauxhall.
You speak the truth, my faithful non Indian companion !!! People just do not want to believe, carmakers don't care about their engines or vehicles after the warranty expires... Those ridiculously long oil change intervals of 7,500 or 10,000 miles, are sacrificing the long term health of the engine, for the sake of very slightly improved mileage, and cheaper claimed cost of regular maintenance costs. Preventative maintenance, like paying up, to replace timing belts, chains, guides, tensioners and water pumps,(internal) types are the best way to extend the life of these vehicles.. Though saving up, and spending some money 💰 to do these tasks, is just not sexy in today's society and culture... Sad, very freaking 😢 sad....
Car makers do care about the life of their engines. That is why Toyota has a reputation for reliability long after the warranty period is over. Honda engines can last hundreds of thousands of kilometres also.
@@sidecarmisanthrope5927Exactly. People talk conspiratorial crap on here. Manufacturers want their vehicles to last a long time so yhey get repeat buyers. Who would buy another Mazda for example if they all failed around 130,000 miles? 😂 Stick with their maintenance schedules you won't go wrong.
Some excellent points. My Honda 350 scooter has a recommended 8000 miles oil change interval, oil filter at 16000 miles. I ignore Honda and change the oil and filter at 4000 miles. Oil is cheaper than engines 😊 Thanks for the video 👍
Regarding the longevity of a timing chain, Oil changes at max 10.000Km are very important regardless of what manufacturers recommend (15K-40K Km). I had a car that was "known" for timing chain stretch at around 100.000Km, manufacturer oil change recommendation is 20.000Km/1 yrs. Mine had 197.000Km when i sold it, no rattles and no issues but it was serviced from new every 10.000Km.
excellent feeback ....i'll stick to changing oil + oil filter every 7000-8000Km and transmission oil + filter (expecially CVT) every 15000-20,000 Km. More than twice faster / lower than the recommended interval...and as I do those maintenance myself the cost is minimal
@@732daven Most people do not get the fact that the manufacturer give maintenance schedules that serve them only until the warranty expires, not for the car to last 20 yrs. Besides a long maintenance schedule has become a marketing asset (German cars and their crazy long schedules)...
The longer the timing chain, the more likely it will stretch just because there are more links. More chain loading from more valves and direct injection fuel pump also tends to chain stretch over time. OEMs want you to think timing chain is forever, don't worry to check chain stretch. In reality, the planned timing belt maintainence interval is a better longevity policy. Timing belts are most often designed to be replaced, located at front of engine for easy access. Isn't it fun to have remove entire engine to replace a rear located "lifetime timing chain" ?
On some cars, you can touch the chain through the oil cap opening, and push down on it. If it feels like there's more slack than usual.. replace XD At my car dealership they just say a chain can fail anytime. You can put in a brand new one, and it can fail within 10k km as well. The main thing indeed is prevent slack and too much "stretching". They look at timing data from the engine management and suggest occasionally checking the slack by just pressing down on it through the oil fill opening to catch a failing tensioner or if it's become too long to keep tension on the chain.. if you can press it down without too much force, come in to have it checked immediately is their advice. On my 2nd chain so far, 900k km in...
On some cars, like for exemple BMW 525TDS diesel, the "stretching" of the chain impacts the timing of injection. Therefore, at some point, you have to choose to setup the timing of your pump for the engine to start easily with cold weather or warm weather but not both. And changing the chain is not an option as it means opening the upper engine and more...
One of the reasons why premium manufacturers opt for double roller chains. On the W123 MB the single chain was known to stretch, the same motor in the W124 had a double chain.
No "premium" manufacturer uses double roller chains anymore or has for a very long time. Even in your example, it was a quick fix than actually engineer the chain to last.
@@khalidacosta7133 well, my W124 230E (double chain) has over 200k km on the odometer, without any timing chain issues. My W123 230E (single chain) with just over 200k km had a stretched chain. I have not come across any W124 230E's where it was necessary to replace the chain. MB stopped building long-lasting engines in the mid-90s.
@@khalidacosta7133 I own a 2010 Porsche Cayman S with a 3.4 L 9a1 flat 6 with 2 duplex roller timing chains and the current models do also. The oil pump is driven by a single row roller chain. I owned a Datsun 1972 240Z & 1975 280Z, both had duplex roller chains and were both fine @ close to 200,000 miles. I also owned a 1979 Mercedes 300 CD with the duplex roller chain and was fine @ close to 500,000 miles I also still own a 1989 Mustang 5 L HO with a duplex roller chain (factory build). The 2013 Tacoma 4 cylinder has a simplex roller chain and now has 70,000 miles and we shat see how long it will last. I used to do oil changes @ 3,000 miles before synthetic oil was available and with synthetic oil I do them @ 5,000 miles, as any longer interval I believe will lead to a short engine life.
I guess this is the problem with the internet. No one knows if people making comments truly have any knowledge or experience or have even researched the topic. There is a lot of 'hot air' in every comments section. That said, the BMW S65 uses a double chain and this is said to place more leverage tension on the crank leading to 1st main bearing premature failure, in a suspicious number of cases...
Excellent video on timing chains. I only use extended service fully synthetic oil and change every 15 or 20 thousand kms. Because most engines are dohc these days the timing chain is critical.
I did get the timing chain checked when my 1972 Hillman Avenger engine got rebuilt 20 years ago. Perhaps I should get it checked again, but anyway it's designed to not smash up the engine if it fails.
Many modern engines are “interference” types, meaning that the valves hit the pistons of the valve timing mechanism fails. Many older engines are not designed that way. For example, the belt on my mid-80s Vauxhall Cavalier snapped and the engine suffered no damage, it just needed a new belt and was fine. That’s progress…
Older engines were made to last. Engineers just didn't have the task to "program" the engine to fail asap after it leaves the dealership. Unfortunately, this is not how it works right now. Maybe, they just want us all to buy EVs eventually.
@@DmitrySapkoNot just evs, to not drive at all will be the thing. That's the plan. I have an ev by choice, going back to 2020, when my horrible, nightmare pos. Peugeot 207sw scrapped itself due to chain guide failure, and I realised then they were built to fail. Only done 23000 miles from new. They've got you with evs too. In 2 years time, a service bill of £1000 will be heading my way for the battery coolant replacement, currently priced at £23 a litre. Might have it gone by then, if I can sell it. Surely I'll get at least £500 for it, that should get me a battered 1990s volvo or rover. That's my plan if the need arises. They have got you all ways unfortunately.
Nice video. My 2011 Mitsubishi 2 liter gave me a chain wear warning at 125 k miles. It was a little noisy on startup for a minute. At 129 k miles I changed the chain ,guides and tensioner with an aftermarket EBay kit. The new chain was about 25 pct heavier. I hope it lasts.
It is a good idea to change out a timing chain at at 85,000 miles on your vehicle. I had one snap on a 1986 Oldsmobile Toronado which caused it to completely break the engine internally so, I had to get a new engine block for this vehicle. With that being said I just recently changed out a timing chain on my 2004 Isuzu Ascender at a little over 85,000 miles so, I would not risk internal engine damage on this vehicle. I am glad I did this for piece of mind.
Remember folks, Oil is cheap, an engine or rebuild is not. Change your oil and filter at least once or twice a year or every 10k or less whichever comes first. On another note, some cars are stupidly reliable, like honda's and toyotas. My uncle's 1995 accord burns oil and we drove 200 miles with the oil light on, when we got home, we checked the dipstick and it was bone dry lol. Topped it off with new oil and she still runs great to this day!
The chain itself ive never worried about. Heck i recently did my Nissan Versa’s chain. The reason to change them is the plastic guides and tensioners DO wear out. It’s minimal, probably could be ok not doing it, but id rather not change it. Though i will say double the manufactures recommendations.
A timing chain doesn’t stretch everyday or every time you use the car. It wouldn’t last 40.000 miles if it did. If you change your oil at half the mileage of the service interval. It will last way over 200.000 miles.
People do not want to change their oil but want to complain about the damage done by their dirty and old oil. My timing chain, timing chain guides, and tensioner are now almost 350,000 miles as it was installed from factory 31 years ago. I change my oil every 2,000 miles and it has been amazing watching how fresh oil extends the life of every component of my engine.
@@RJAH355 this is what it takes to have an engine that has never ever had work done to it in 31 years. It still uses the original headgasket. It has only had two valve cover gaskets, front oil seal (once), rear oil seal (twice) replaced in 31 years. It will be 32 years in January and i still drive my car hard. This excessive oil change as you put it, has allowed to have a problem free car which has been paid off since 1998. As a result, it allowed me to save a lot cash i used to buy a Mercedes in cash. So, if you think frequent oil changes is excessive, think again. Oil is cheaper than an engine.
I had a 2005 Honda Accord I bought 2nd hand with 90,000 miles I then continued to drive the car a further 180,000miles over 9 years at which point I gave it to a friend who is still driving it with a further 40000 miles, the car is still on the original Timing chain and is very reliable. Even if the timing chain did let go it owes nobody anything because its nearly 20 years old and has never broken down. Not endorsing anyone but I always changed the oil every 6 months with Castrol Magnatec oil.
I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Nobody cares. An engine old enough to be non-interference will offer pathetic performance by modern standards, a car old enough to have such an engine is a death box that handles like a bathtub on roller bearings, has wood brakes and crumples like an accordion if you crash it. If you value the fact that the car will last a million miles with minimal maintenance over performance, fuel efficiency, handling and safety, well best of luck to ya. 99% of people disagree.
I took my van in to my mates garage and I thought it was a belt, but my mate told me don’t bother that chain will last long than the whole van will, just service with good oil, and he was right it’s still going strong ,,he’s a good lad and a good mate
I brought a 2005 Nissan wingroad 5 years ago mileage at 79,000km. it's a 1.8 primera engine factory. Today's mileage i have done has reached 137,000 km. My trick was to change oil in the moter every 12 weeks before the oil changes color,the filter every 24 weeks, the engine has a lot of pep with the 6 speed steering padel gear change,for 5 years straight the car is used daily around town and out of town trips 😀. Its chain drive also runs smoothly and sounds new... Regular oil changes are far better than late oil changes... We will continue regular oil changes in the next 3 to 5 years for any sort of engine wear, including ⛓️ chain... If I am right, then that's the trick for longer life on your engine... 1.8 cc experience...
I have owned multiple Chevrolet 2.2 ecotec engines and change the oil excessively at 3000 miles (or less) using full synthetics. These were mostly driven on the highway. Two of them had 300k, one other 170k, and current one 100k. Chain life depends on your driving and maintenance habits. Oil is cheap compared to parts......
Stellantis mucked up with weak timing gchains in their 1500 diesels but rectified the issue in the year 2000. Usually it is not the chain but the tensioner that wear out especially if you do regular oil changes ie every 5k, always half the manufacturers recommend service interval if your doing high milage.
That's odd. I've managed to get 300,000 km out of two Honda V-Tec engines and I have a D-Tec coming up to that mileage too. The rest of the car falls apart first. 🙂
I had to replace a chain in the CR-V 2014 2.4L engine at 120k km due to noise. It had been maintained perfectly and still failed. So, it's about luck I suppose when it comes to modern-day technologies.
In a 4G32/4G33, these last forever. I have one in a 40 year old Hyundai Pony, and have had 14 of those cars over 3 decades. I've NEVER had a failure, and some of the engines got up to 400k. The only time I've seen one damaged was a friend's '85 - one link broke off and was loose, making noise against the tensioner, so he took off the rocker cover and moved the chain until he could see the broken link and... popped it off with pliers. The chain design is double thickness to the ones shown here, and I bet it'll last 40 more years :P
Here in the USA we normally change our cars engine oil at 5000 miles and filter . There are countless vehicles that have reached 200000-300000 without ever changing the timing chain . I expect it is because of the schedule of oil changes . Maybe in your country to shorten your oil changes .
Europe is more inclined to following the recommended maintenance routine. But I've seen a lot of cars from the US that hadn't seen oil change for ages.
260,000 miles or 420,000 km on my Honda fit which is a jazz chain still fine runs fine. I changed oil by the maintenance minder put in 5W-30 full synthetic with about a half a cup of Lucas every oil change
My 2004 Pontiac Vibe has a 1.8L Toyota engine (corolla/Matrix) with a timing chain and currently has 280,000 miles, operated on Amsoil full synthetic for the last 230K mi. The engine is quiet, runs smooth and when I replaced the valve cover gasket not long ago, the inside was free of any build up and had a nice golden color to it. Not sure how long it will last, but I will keep driving it. 10,000 mi oil changes by the way.
I had an O-ring *drive chain* , fully exposed to the elements , lubricated with an oiler of my own design , on a 1250cc motorcycle , last 93,000 km . It was replaced after it developed a clicking sound which turned out to be a cracked pin bush. The actual wear was only 30% of the recommended elongation. (chains do not stretch , the wear at the link pins increases the clearance in the side plate holes allowing the chain to elongate). If that bush remained intact the chain could have lasted 300,000km
188.000 km on my Alfa 159 2.2 JTS. I am the second owner. The timing chain is still the factory one and good. The previous owner had the oil changes done every 20.000 km. I do them every 5-6.000 km. It had 173.000 km when I bought it.
Mercedes chain kits we fitted on single chains , duplex chains didn’t stretch , some tensioners on 110 engines seized and required renewing , 117 engines chains were all good !
Toyota timing chains last over 600000 kms, I work for a taxi company which 80 percent of the fleet are Toyota. 40 percent of them have over 500000kms and have never been opened up, engine will dye before the chain needs replacement
Changed timing chains on a 17 years old AUDI at 210'000 kilometres, and it is V6 engine, thus the process was not cheap. 😆 MAYBE it could last longer, but it also became quite obvious, that car was neglected before sale - all spark plugs had to be swapped too, plus some work done of crank case ventilation, and fluid in gearbox was basically black, even wheels were out of alignment and headlights needed polishing. After all that got fixed, car is really nice, fingers crossed, might have even fixed oil consumption it seems (will know for sure after next 800-1500km), it was within acceptable limits, yet still annoying, as my older car needed no oil added in between oil changes.
The strain put on timing chains when starting the engine is a major source of stretching. So avoid too many short journeys and turn off the auto-stop that's designed to save fuel when stopped at traffic lights etc. This feature can also lead to premature failure of starter motor. Regular oil changes will keep timing chains running smoothly
Timing chains used to be replaced at 100,000 miles especially if you had a GM with the nylon gears but at most you could go over that milage now the chains are way narrower and as weak as the belts so rule of thumb if your car is approaching the 100,000 marks look at the chain for signs of wear, rule of thumb oil changes every 3,000 for conventional , 5,000 for synthetic or blend don't believe 10,000 or above nonsense that number just give you a little lead way if you miss the 5,000 mark
Thank you thank you thank you for being you great information especially if you are a person who loves to keep maintenance right up the top end so the vehicle can operate properly. We know about temperature underneath the bonnet. When the stretches timing goes out it can be corrected through the computer system, however That slap and early morning start with a loose train is what they call a death battle. I have a very rare B.M.W that it seems B.M.W want back as they only made 50 of them to race the 1998 anniversary of B.M.W. Great engineering past they are a fabulous motor vehicle , however it’s best that you read the manual and understand what you’re doing as an automotive electrical and mechanical engineer. I am still learning and I passed every exam that I have in control of the military. They really train you well thank you for being you.
I can't agree with this totally. I've never had to replace a timing chain EVER! Have taken multiple vehicles over 200K with absolutely no hint of a timing chain problem. However, they can stretch but at 150K I don't think it could stretch enough to ever have issues.
@@dalephillips8250 the 2.7 was completely worthless. so bad that I would never have another chrysler anything. before this engine which I bought new and took the best care of, I was very loyal to the brand.
I have two Toyotas with D4D engine, one with 350k km and other with 560km , never changed the timing chain and it doesn't rattle. Oil changes every 8k km. Depends on the quality of the engine also
The timing chain in my friends car was still fine when he sold it with over 600k miles on it but of course that was a Mercedes W123 diesel. On the other end there was the BMW M47 where it failed all the time presumably due to a design fault. And there is the Ford 2.2L diesel also used by Jaguar which must be changed at 120k miles but that had a strange combination of chain and belts which took over from the chain to drive the twin overhead cams. The replacement kit cost north of £600 plus labour!
I'm up to 373,000km on original chain with a 2002 e39 525d. I change the oil and filter annually around 8-10k miles, about twice as frequently as manufacturer recommends. Body rust and injector issues but chain is fine.
A big problem is car owners who need a oil change only & not a full service being unable to find a mechanic shop that will just change the oil as needed and not push the full service at $250. This is way car owners don't change the oil when needed.
2002 subaru outback.h6 404034 kms, original chain. Engine fully resealed at 278k kms. Only a tensioner blade was replaced at full engine reseal due to a small part missing.
Dmitry, the problem is that the great majority of people who need to appreciate the simple facts aren't the people watching this video. I think you are hinting spot on though... my deduction is that there's a common European auto industry, unspoken, life expectancy of 10 years, and/or 200K Km (125K miles) of reliable life by design... so perhaps - account for such major jobs discussed by those points, costing such against the relative depreciation of a replacement vehicle, and maybe you've got basis of economic everyday motoring.
Agree with that. In 1980s and 1990s we had 500,000 km cars, then in 2000s it all dropped to 300,000 km, in 2010s things came to 200,000 km. Now ICE engines are claimed by manufacturers to last 150,000 km (Renault 1.0 TCE, Citrone 1.2L, etc.)
@@DmitrySapko There are technical reasons for this, not least lightening engines and having them conform to ever more stringent emission regulations, but some of the design decisions are ridiculous... for the person who intends to retain a vehicle over a long life that is. There are nunerous people I know who take absolutely NO interest in the term durability of a car and expect to complain about prices of service or such, when in fact they got drawn into the world of PCP marketing of their car. They do not look at the cost of their motoring over time and accommodate a budget, and subsequent 'value' for their resources invested in it. The best we can do is distribute proven knowledge of how best to cope... and I note some useful comments below. Being aware of your model(s) in great detail, and acting upon true service requirements, rather than reacting too late, or sleep walking into an known issue, thinking it won't happen to mine!
My mother has a '99 BMW E46 323i. Oil change intervals have been 25,000 - 30,000 km, according to manufacturer's recommendations. With 312,000 km the engine ist still running fine. 20 years ago an automotive engineer predicted the engine would outlast the body.
did 565000km in my 540i, plenty of Autobahn thrashing, masses of it. No noise. ALWAYS started even at -10c. Chains parts all in tact. Oil changed every 20.000km, 0w-40 fully synth. Always.
I believe a duplex timing chain and 5,000 mile oil changes with synthetic oil will provide a very reliable package. I don't care for the link plate (silent) chains as I consider them weak due to the pin size connecting the links together. A simplex roller chain may be adequate for engines that have less power and lower RPM limits if serviced with synthetic oil and 5,000 mile change intervals. I know high RPM motorcycle engines built to high HP levels will destroy a link plate timing chain and the engine they reside in, as they can't handle it and must be refitted with a roller chain.
My chain started rattling wayy before my Hundai i30 mk1 reached 100k km. I took it as a warning and got the chain replaced. And i gotta say, i was lucky - many other owners of the same car with the same engine had to replace whole engines. As the chain stretches, the engine will also become much noisier. I remember after the chain was replaced, it was almost as if i got completely different car! It´s the same with "lifetime" oil in transmission - it´s meant as lifetime of the oil, not the transmission itself. Even the interval of "100k km" can be too long - i´ve already replaced mine, as i had some trouble switching gears - since then, gearbox acts as brand new. I´m also replacing the engine oil each year. Ain´t no way for me to reach scheduled range, so time limit it is.
Change you oil more often ( oil is cheap engine is not) max every 10k. I personally change every 5k KM. Use a good quality full synthetic oil that suits your engine. I use API SP oil ( gasoline car) because it is the newest specification and has chain protection criteria checked. Always change the oil filter with every oil change.
It depends on the manufacturer. Let's say a Lexus timing chain will last about 500,000 miles. Some other manufacturers as little as 150,000 miles. Often it is the plastic tensioners or timing belt guides that fail, not the actual chain. Sure helps if the owner is attentive to oil changes.
That was true for Lexus and Toyota 10 years ago. Now it's very unlikely it may last that long. But sure, the lifespan still depends on the manufacturer.
Just change your oil people... 5k miles or every 6 months for low mileage drivers.. it's not expensive and takes 5 mins. Manufacturers want your engine to explode as soon as possible after 36 months. Your objectives are the complete opposite to their objectives.
And, contrary to some people's opinions, both dealership mechanics and independent mechanics want the same thing most owners want: For the car to last as long as possible after the warranty expires (used car buyers also want that). Yes, that means dealerships are in conflict with their own manufacturers in this regard, because dealerships make more money on post-warranty repairs than on new car sales or warranty repairs. Where owners come into conflict with mechanics is whether a particular repair needs to be done _right as the time_ the mechanic recommends it. That takes the owner's own effort learn enough about the car to understand.
When I rebuild engines I always use a new timing chain, sprockets and tensioner. After 200k they usually have wear on the sprockets and have stretched a bit. They prob would work but for the cost it’s best to replace.
The chain in my 1.2 twinport opel Corsa started making noise during startup. Replaced everything at 200.000km's and compared to the new chain the old one was a bit stretched. Parts from febi were pretty cheap, and it's runs good and silent now.
Another issues with timing chains is that manufacturers are continually trying to reduce the width etc. Less drag, better emissions etc. (The same applies to things like big end and main bearings) Combined with longer oil change intervals bad things will happen. See the GM 3.2/3.6L V6 for details... Of course, narrow chains mean narrow tensioners as well so they now fail more often too.
In the old GM big V-8 timing chains would be stretched enough to throw your timing off at about 50,000 miles. In smaller ones I change it every 100,000 miles. My 1987 Suburban was still " on time" when I sold it at 287,000 miles because of that. With belts, every 75,000 miles is a good rule of thumb.
Back in the early 60s, some US V8s had metal timing sprockets, and, oil changed at 2k miles, would last the normal life of the car. So,,after a while, manufacturers began using a nylon upper sprocket. Pontiacs regularly broke these as early as 45k miles, Chevys a little later, Buicks maybe 70k-80k miles, and Olds a similar time. As in certain Ford V8s, an Olds chain failure was likely to bend some valves. HOWEVER, a simple approach avoided these problems: In those days, the water pump would last maybe 30k miles. So when you did the water pump the first time, you just continued farther back and replaced the timing set with all-metal, maybe HD. Today's pushrod V8s will go probably 200k miles, maybe more, without busting a chain. But if I needed a water pump, I'd still do the chain at the same time; you're almost there anyway. Fancier setups, I'd do on factory schedule if there is one; else whenever adjacent to the chain or belt. For those on the back of the engine, I'd consider whether a top overhaul was in the offing, or whether the whole engine was coming due. Change oil early and regularly, and some of these engines will go a LONG way, so maybe you just bank overhaul money against the day. Do keep in mind that crate engine prices vary WIDELY; some later engines are REAL pricey.
Timing chains used to be great, but cost cutting and reduction in chain width has made them inferior to a belt. With a belt you expect to change it and it is generally made relatively early to do. Chains wear out and are a nightmare to change in comparison.
The SAAB 900 had early mileage failure on the timing chain, SAAB them modified the engine. My SAAB 900, had a duplex timing chain that would out last the car, I did 298K miles during 14 years in my ownership, when I sold the car the timing chain was still very serviceable so was the car. My next car had the rubber band good for 100K miles, yeah right, change them at 60K. I'm now back with timing chain in a M-B, a car built with a lot of common sense and solid engineering. I am a retired Plant Engineer, did that for 50 years so I know C***p when I see it or hear it. Just a note I also service my cars on time not mileage every six month usually 5 to 7 thousand miles cannot beat clean oil.
307 000km on my 2012 ford focus timing chain, and no weird noises. I change the oil every 8500km with full synthetic. The timing chains on my lowish hour can am quad were damn close to failing. All depends on manufacturer and maintenance.
I strongly believe the quality plus the size of chains has reduced overtime.. coupled with the longer service intervals are contributing to the lower timing chain life
I suspect worn or "stretched" chains, or excessive guide wear are caused primarily by design flaws on particular engines. Inadequate lubrication. They seem to last forever on some models and are a huge problem on others.
I thought about getting a car with a timing chain because of the longevity but then realised when you change a belt you also change the water pump, and overall it’s not that expensive and I’ve done it myself sometimes. So I’m sticking with the belt as I know when to change it and the water pump.. instead of leaving it up to random noises …
I have owned so many cars with timing chains with very high mileages over 200000 miles. Never ever had a problem! Stay on top of oil changes at 10-12 kmiles, use a quality oil and replace the tensioner if you hear any chain noise. Stay on top of your maintenance. Most issues are caused by user error!
My old 2.2 iCTDi Civic was sold with 227k miles on it last year, original timing chain no rattle. Oil changes every 12.5k miles. It's still going now as I see it every day. Never been touched.
for most vehicles with a timing chain if it was designed decently from the beginning using full synthetic oil and changing it every 5000 miles or 6 months will make the chain last quite a long time. the chain is lubricated with engine oil and the better oil you use and the more frequently you chain it makes sure the chain it lubricated properly and reduces wear.
I can tell you that I have a Mazda 3 with 415,000 miles on it. The clutch is original, no engine work has been done. I change the oil every 5k miles, the transmission fluid every 75k or so, spark plugs have been done 3 times. I have only replaced the serpentine belt. Am I wrong for letting it go for so long? I'm just assuming it's expensive enough to not be worthwhile and just get a used engine if it goes.
Why should you be wrong using it if it's still up and running? Driving it till it drops and swapping the engine is also an acceptable strategy. But finding a good engine will be really hard.
I noticed a rattle in my subaru with 153,000 miles or 246,000 km. I didn't know what it was but something else broke so I had to pull the engine to fix. I am thinking of changing the chains but don't know if I have the skill.
It's not that hard to change the chains. It's hard to take the engine out. So since it's out already, it's worth replacing those chains. Boxer engines will die if the chain jumps.
I've got an 2004 olds Alero with the 2.5 inline 4 with a little over 340000km I just took it apart to check the timing chain it still looked exactly like the new parts I had encase it was getting bad. At this point I'm sure the rust will kill it before the engine dies. I change the oil every 5000km or 6 months whichever comes first.
I guess that timing chains don't have as much stress put on them but as a reference, a motorcycle chain can easily stretch by 1-2 cm (unevenly) in 20 000 km then it usually needs to be replaced.
We have never changed a cam chain and none of them show signs of significant wear. All of our cars do a lot of km before we sell them. BTW: If the cam chain isn't wearing neither are the guides. We bond a lubricant to insides of the engine: This extends the lifespan of the engine by 2~10x. 🙂 #XcelPlus
People seriously under estimate the importance of engine oil changes. I'm an old diesel mechanic and I've seen them all. My old father was a 3000 mile man for cars of that period. I myself am a 5000 mile oil change man. 6000 miles or 10,000 km is enough for modern motors with modern oils. Tractors and trucks are changed at every 100 hours of higher RPM operations. Filters are changed at every oil change. Oil and filters are very cheap compared to an engine overhaul.
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It is true, the timing chain lasts the life of the engine. Because when the chain fails that is the end of the engines life.
😂😂😂😂
10.22.24. ☝🏼Just like when they say, transmission fluid for life … yeah the life of the vehicle when the transmission goes out before 100,000 miles!
At least, for interference engines.
@@rockets4kids name a modern engine that is not a interference engine.
@@Hydrogenblonde Believe it or not, not everyone runs a modern engine. Also, on those modern cars with interference engines, most of them are going to get totaled from a few dinged body panels or failed electronics gubbins. And I bet the factory timing chain will be in perfect shape when this happens.
5,OOO miles or 6 months. "Oil is cheap, engines are expensive!"--Scotty Kilmer
Scotty is a good guy. But very angry :)
Longer than a belt
I changed oil in my Fiesta as recommended: every 20000 kilometers. And guess what? Nothing bad happened. Replaced timing belt at 150000km. Trust car manufacturer because it's lie that he doesn't care what happens after warranty period ends.
That was back in 1980s when engines used 20w50 mineral oil. It's now as out of date as Mr Kilmer's other advice. I owned a 2003 VW TDI for 18 years and a 2007 petrol Mazda with a timing chain for 12 years. They've had oil changes changes every 10,000 miles or 2 years which ever came first. Did most of oil changes myself using a suction pump through the dipstick tube. Both have given no engine problems. The TDI is on 160,000 miles still with the original turbo. Unless there's a very, very, very, very good reason to change the oil like you track race the car just stick with the recommended milage or time interval. Unless of course you work in a garage and make good money from people changing their oil every few months and want to keep that cash cow going.
@@DmitrySapkoAngry? Nah...more like animated, very animated.
I just sold my old Hyundai diesel, no issues with timing chain, no rattle or slap. 290,000 miles. Recommended oil change is at 20,000 miles, but I change at 10,000 mile interval. Use only top brand, fully synthetic oil.
I had an i30 diesel; oil changes every 20,000 miles, sold the car with 140,000 miles on the clock. My current car is an i30 1.4l petrol that's covered 136,000 miles with no issues.
I have a fleet of Hyundai Ponys. they all have chains (the ones I haven't swapped to 4G63 engines anyhow, so most of them) and I've had ~14 of them and serviced many dozens over the decades. Not a single one had any problems related to the timing chain, one even had a link stamp removed due to a link ripping out.
@@1man1guitarletsgo Still standard to replace whenever though as still underperforms both on power and eco stats as wear takes place as timing goes out a little more every journey tots up the old mileage so pocket on fuel effected, and as he eluded too you can't always detect the wear from sound alone as this is often masked by other sounds coming from a running engine.
@@rustydusty2992 The fuel consumption of both my original diesel i30, and my current petrol one, has not increased from when either car was new.
@@1man1guitarletsgo Yes it depends on the driving style so congrats on you soft application of the accelerator then as too much stabbing or hard application of the accelerator causes timing chain snatch to some degree, and well good oiled chains with good frequent servicing with the oil changes paramount as obviously oil degrades with mileage and time as well as the good manufacture of the chain.
I've seen timing chains last over 500 000 km. Most important is regular oil changes. No more than 10k kilometres with good quality oil. Unless the chain is noisy, it's probably still better than an aftermarket chain. A well cared for engine with a silent timing chain isn't going to suddenly snap a chain.
I have still original chain, 585tkm. I use the cheapest 5w-40 oil and change every 15-20tkm. Then again, usually i drive highways 55km to work, so the engine gets hot every time. Driving short distanses on the city would need shorter oil changes.
@@mika69ize Car?
@@BubblesTheCat1
Bmw 530D -03
I drive Octavia Combi 1.6 FSI, now at 460 thousand km with original chain. No rattling whatsoever. I change oil at 20 thousand km with 10W40 because I drive mostly extra urban, no highway. I almost never have redlined it. It is 5-gear manual transmission with most of the driving at 3000 rpm. I think driving style does matter a lot.
500000km mercedes sprinter, original chain until the crank let go.
People should worry about the plastic timing chain guides and tensioners, engineered obsolescence
RUclips channel "I do cars" has dismantled several engines and plastic chain guides are never been any problem. Which was very surprising to me also. 90% of all his cases it's crankshaft bearings and reason is some kind of lubrication issue.
I have seen issues with those guides. 3 times so far. In one case the guide was broken in 4 or 5 parts and basically blocked the engine. Surprisingly, in 2 out of 3 cases, no serious damage was caused. But that's a lottery anyway.
@@KasperiVonSchroweI think there may be some selection bias here. He gets engines which have been abused and often failed early because of this but may still have useable parts; older engines probably have little to no useable parts so you never get to see the guide wear.
I do agree though that those guides seem remarkably wear resistant.
you can not sell new cars if the old one stays in really good shape.
@@KasperiVonSchroweThere have been many broken guides on his videos, one recently where the broken guide went into the pickup and starved the engine of oil.
I had a 2010 Suzuki SX4 1.6 which I bought with 50k kms and had it for 10 years. I sold it earlier this year with 400,000kms, still driving perfectly and totally quiet, no noises, original chain. I am very particular about servicing and maintenance. The car used 10W40 semi synthetic, I changed oil and filter myself always at 10,000kms. Regular oil and filter change is the life blood of an engine.
Yes, it's important for owners to realize that the "manufacture's recommendation" in the manual isn't the same thing as the engineer's recommendation to reach the maximum capability of the engine. The manufacturer wants to advertise "low maintenance." The recommendation in the manual has been massaged by the marketing department to reach the optimum profit balance of warranty length and best appearance of "low maintenance." As you said, the manufacturer cares about the car reaching the end of the warranty _and_ with as little maintenance as it takes to get there.
I notice now that they stopped caring if a car needs a lot of repair during warranty. Cars keep hanging on lifts for months being 1-2 years old. Also, 10 years ago I never heard about engine or transmission replacement during warranty. Now it's a common thing.
Manufacturers intervals should be treated as the absolute maximum interval between changes, much shorter intervals are recommended for prolonged engine life. No one ever killed a car by over servicing it !
@@DmitrySapko I suspect the manufacturers have calculated what percentage of within-warranty failures they can accept to meet an optimum profit balance. And the dealers are the main losers in that calculation.
Toyota mechanics reuse the timing chain if the engine needs to be opened. They only check the color of the markings: yellow is OK, non-yellow means the engine has overheated, and the timing chain needs to be replaced.
At 270K MILES my old Jeep inline 6 is still running. I've had multiple old cars with high mileage pushrod type engines (where the chains are short) and never replaced a timing chain.
In the old days, engineers had less data on component life under different conditions, so they apparently often played it on the 'safe' side to avoild warranty costs. Now that they can predict lifespans more accurately, they have more opportunity for 'fine tuning' everything to fail at once, outside the warranty period.
The early belt timing engines had the belt OUTSIDE the engine where it could easily be inspected and replaced. Now complex expensive disassembly is required.
It seems like we're going backwards.
The inline 6 has no chain ?The cam is gear driven? At least all the chevs and fords were,not over head cam
@@goforitrazz It's a very short chain, and no elaborate tensioners needed. Stretch is proportional to length, and there is much less likelihood of destructive harmonic vibrations as it wears.
Yes grampa, and that motor had a compression ratio of 5: or 8:1. Modern engines run in the 14:1 range. More power, more problems.
@@H33t3Speaks very true. That's one reason why wide safety margins were built into the old engines, and it's easy to keep them alive.
With 14:1 compression, the ONLY thing protecting the engine are the computer sensors. One malfunction and it's toast.
@@theronwolf3296 News to me that gas engines run a comp ratio that high,i would have🤔 assumed from the old days maybe 9.1 or 9.5 ,1,im old school.
Mechanical engineer here. I had a similar concern. I searched for, and found, venerable old Kawasaki 454 LTD motorcycle: the reason for this specific model is because they scrapped drive chain, it has belt final drive (like Harley). Zero driveline service! The bike is 1986 vintage, nearing 40 years old, and belt with 40,000 km still seems in excellent shape. Yet, the motorcycle engine has a cam chain. It also has top-end rattle. The cam tensioner is "old style," it is a ratcheting type with spring. I corrected the rattle by loosening off the tensioner (externally-mounted), until the ratchet "clicked" once, then tightened back up. Top-end rattle is resolved. Next time I inspect valve clearance I will inspect cam chain tension.
I have 2008 Chev Malibu, it has 3 timing chains. One master, and two slaves that each drive half of the V-6. This all has to come apart to replace water pump and oil pump, so as usual: if any pump develops a problem, here is the opportunity to replace the timing chain system. Each of the 3 timing chains has its own tensioner.
The tensioners are NOT the old ratcheting type, they are "hydraulic lifter" type: same as you show at 2:55. Engine oil pressure is applied to the back which pushes the plunger and keeps the chain tight, even as the chain "lengthens" due to wear between pins and side plates. The pressure is maintained by an integrated check valve (not shown at 2:55), just like hydraulic lifters. This system works EXCELLENT - so long as the engine oil is good quality, and maintained appropriately. When the engine oil becomes contaminated, it tends to leave varnish deposits, or to carry grit, or to become acidified, which can cause damage to any of the lifters or any of the cam chain tensioners. If a valve lifter bleeds down you will hear as prominent ticking noise, as the cam has excessive clearance and "slaps" the valve lifter for every engine rotation. If a cam chain tensioner bleeds down, you will hear cam chain rattle, and eventually the cam chain will skip a tooth (or jam between sprocket teeth, and become broken as shown at 3:24).
Valve clearance builds due to wear of the valve seat inside the cylinder head: similar to how cam chain "stretches". It is normal, it is expected, and is compensated by hydraulic lifters.
CONCLUSION: buy "good" oil, "good" oil filter, and have this changed regularly. Oil testing is becoming something the owner can do, one is inexpensive "transmittance" tester where you immerse a probe into the oil and it shines a light through, to detect particulate contamination. Testing for moisture can be done simply via hot plate "crackle" test, with 160°C hot plate. Compare a couple drops of new oil to a couple drops of old oil, see how much each sputters (moisture causes acidification of oil, causes oil additives to deplete, etc).
Wow, that's great info, thanks a lot. Yes, people seem to not understand that oil doesn't only lubricate pistons but does a lot of other super-important job.
Subaru tech here, but we use hydraulic chain tensioners with a pawl & rack cut into one side. This is supposed to keep tension when the pressure bleeds down, and does a solid job, from what I've seen.
I suspect I may have a "valve lifter bleeds down" - fast ticking (like a sewing machine?) coming from ONE side of a V6. 3.6L GM Alloytech engine, 224k km's. History of neglect (one oil change was between 40 & 50 thousand), and had once run WAY LOW on oil (to the point it was making horrible noises on the "up ramp" in a car park - I suspect the sump pick-up was dry on that momentary angle). Still, I've reduced oil consumption from 1.5 ltrs per 1000 km to 1 ltr per 3,000km (which I can live with) by doing a series of kerosene flushes to de-sludge it. It was worth a try ahead of a replacement engine! (ps, if I DO have a valve lifter issue, is that something which will become terminal, or can I expect continued life out of it?)
It's more accurate to think of it as chain wear rather than stretch. The material worn off the contact areas of the chain results in the chain getting longer but none of the material in the chain has actually stretched
Yes, it's just commonly called "stretching"
@@DmitrySapko Just like we say the sun is going down, and not that the earth has rotated in a relative angle in which the light doesn't shine over the curved surface, so that you can't see it on sea level from your position at a certain length degree :)
Yeah I dunno what brain scientist came up with "stretch" when it comes to timing chains but everyone uses that term and the majority of them don't understand the material is not actually *stretching* . You can't really blame them because of the stupid term being used by everyone.
@@rolandm9750 I believe that the chain don't stretch, but the tensioners can wear allowing the chain to be sloppy. when there is enough slack the chain can jump a few cogs allowing piston valve contact, good by engine.
@@tgvoaden The chain *elongates* --that it definitely does but the idea of the metal "stretching" is where it goes wrong. That it does not, which is why it's a stupid *term* to use. The tensioner is indeed there to take up the slack as the chain wears and gets longer (not "stretches") but eventually the chain will get worn enough the tensioner cannot compensate just as you say.
The way the chain gets elongated is because the pins in the chain wear against the holes they are in, which causes the chain to get longer overall, not because the metal does any stretching, which is what the term "stretch" makes people (erroneously) believe.
Timing chains don't stretch. the pivot links wear and the holes gets larger, this makes the roller on the chain pins sloppy. This effects the sprocket and they also wear just like a well used bicycle chain. So its "Pivot and Roller link wear" not chain streach.
Best comment here
Lots of rollers in a chain, (like Motorcycle chain) This can wear the oil quicker. So my camchain engines always have fully synthetic oil with 5-6K mile changes.
You're only playing with semantics here. Hold a new chain next to a well-worn chain and the difference in overall length is obvious. You can see the very same thing with chainsaw chains, which is why we must occasionally re-tighten them.
Ok the chain gets longer. Same thing.
So true. All manufacturers replacement intervals for all parts/fluids are far too extended and will lead to premature failure. Cut mfg interval in half to be safe. It is not in the manufacturer’s interest to keep your car on the road forever. Replace oil/filter every 5k miles, gas or diesel, fuel filter 40k gas/20k diesel, coolant 30k, brake fluid 30k, transmission 40k, etc etc. Excellent points on timing belts and chains!
I agree. People don't see this oil change as such a means of saving a lot of money. To replace a timing chain is expensive. Oil isn't. I had an Audi A6 3.2 with 280,000 miles before I donated it. Ran great. I just sold my Audi A6 TDI with 170,000 miles also ran great. I use MOA too for extra lubricity. Of course, we all complained about the timing belts. Now I wish we could use them again as they were a lot easier to replace.
I used to work for Morse Chain (division of Borg Warner). We made timing chains for Ford and others. Both roller chain and inverted tooth chain (on the 6 and 8 cylinder engines). We never had any failures or even negative feedback over many years. We also made timing belts for OHC engines. They stretched over time and needed replacement, but again not one complaint.
If you are rebuilding an engine, it’s no additional trouble to replace the timing chain or belt.
As someone whos spent the last 40+ years repairing them I can tell you that the problems with chains are by and large limited to certain manufacturers. The main culprits being Nissan,Mercedes,BMW/Mini,a variety of VAG engines,citroen/peugeot,to a slightly lesser extent Vauxhall.
Don't forget the 3.6 v6 in various gm vehicles, they are notorious for failure
So most European cars 😂
In the case of my 07 Impala 3.9L, original timing chain, body rotted out before the drivetrain died. 524,000km.
You speak the truth, my faithful non Indian companion !!! People just do not want to believe, carmakers don't care about their engines or vehicles after the warranty expires... Those ridiculously long oil change intervals of 7,500 or 10,000 miles, are sacrificing the long term health of the engine, for the sake of very slightly improved mileage, and cheaper claimed cost of regular maintenance costs. Preventative maintenance, like paying up, to replace timing belts, chains, guides, tensioners and water pumps,(internal) types are the best way to extend the life of these vehicles..
Though saving up, and spending some money 💰 to do these tasks, is just not sexy in today's society and culture... Sad, very freaking 😢 sad....
Car makers do care about the life of their engines. That is why Toyota has a reputation for reliability long after the warranty period is over. Honda engines can last hundreds of thousands of kilometres also.
10,000 miles synthetic
@@sidecarmisanthrope5927Exactly. People talk conspiratorial crap on here. Manufacturers want their vehicles to last a long time so yhey get repeat buyers. Who would buy another Mazda for example if they all failed around 130,000 miles? 😂 Stick with their maintenance schedules you won't go wrong.
Some excellent points. My Honda 350 scooter has a recommended 8000 miles oil change interval, oil filter at 16000 miles. I ignore Honda and change the oil and filter at 4000 miles.
Oil is cheaper than engines 😊
Thanks for the video 👍
Regarding the longevity of a timing chain, Oil changes at max 10.000Km are very important regardless of what manufacturers recommend (15K-40K Km). I had a car that was "known" for timing chain stretch at around 100.000Km, manufacturer oil change recommendation is 20.000Km/1 yrs. Mine had 197.000Km when i sold it, no rattles and no issues but it was serviced from new every 10.000Km.
excellent feeback ....i'll stick to changing oil + oil filter every 7000-8000Km and transmission oil + filter (expecially CVT) every 15000-20,000 Km. More than twice faster / lower than the recommended interval...and as I do those maintenance myself the cost is minimal
@@732daven Most people do not get the fact that the manufacturer give maintenance schedules that serve them only until the warranty expires, not for the car to last 20 yrs. Besides a long maintenance schedule has become a marketing asset (German cars and their crazy long schedules)...
The longer the timing chain, the more likely it will stretch just because there are more links. More chain loading from more valves and direct injection fuel pump also tends to chain stretch over time. OEMs want you to think timing chain is forever, don't worry to check chain stretch.
In reality, the planned timing belt maintainence interval is a better longevity policy. Timing belts are most often designed to be replaced, located at front of engine for easy access. Isn't it fun to have remove entire engine to replace a rear located "lifetime timing chain" ?
Right, in the majority of old chain engines replacing the chain was easy. Now, it's a real pain, in most cases.
That is untrue.
I am not engine expert, I wanted to double check with you if the direct injection fuel pump is cam driven on all cars. Thanks!
I am not engine expert, I wanted to double check with you if the direct injection fuel pump is cam driven on all cars. Thanks!
On some cars, you can touch the chain through the oil cap opening, and push down on it. If it feels like there's more slack than usual.. replace XD
At my car dealership they just say a chain can fail anytime. You can put in a brand new one, and it can fail within 10k km as well. The main thing indeed is prevent slack and too much "stretching". They look at timing data from the engine management and suggest occasionally checking the slack by just pressing down on it through the oil fill opening to catch a failing tensioner or if it's become too long to keep tension on the chain.. if you can press it down without too much force, come in to have it checked immediately is their advice. On my 2nd chain so far, 900k km in...
The chains will last forever. Sadly, not true of the chain tensioners
Changed the chain on m Opel after 350.000m because had to remove the head..but was unnecessary... it had no wear
what Opel do you have, and what engine?
On some cars, like for exemple BMW 525TDS diesel, the "stretching" of the chain impacts the timing of injection. Therefore, at some point, you have to choose to setup the timing of your pump for the engine to start easily with cold weather or warm weather but not both.
And changing the chain is not an option as it means opening the upper engine and more...
One of the reasons why premium manufacturers opt for double roller chains. On the W123 MB the single chain was known to stretch, the same motor in the W124 had a double chain.
No "premium" manufacturer uses double roller chains anymore or has for a very long time. Even in your example, it was a quick fix than actually engineer the chain to last.
@@khalidacosta7133 well, my W124 230E (double chain) has over 200k km on the odometer, without any timing chain issues. My W123 230E (single chain) with just over 200k km had a stretched chain. I have not come across any W124 230E's where it was necessary to replace the chain. MB stopped building long-lasting engines in the mid-90s.
@@khalidacosta7133 I own a 2010 Porsche Cayman S with a 3.4 L 9a1 flat 6 with 2 duplex roller timing chains and the current models do also. The oil pump is driven by a single row roller chain. I owned a Datsun 1972 240Z & 1975 280Z, both had duplex roller chains and were both fine @ close to 200,000 miles. I also owned a 1979 Mercedes 300 CD with the duplex roller chain and was fine @ close to 500,000 miles I also still own a 1989 Mustang 5 L HO with a duplex roller chain (factory build). The 2013 Tacoma 4 cylinder has a simplex roller chain and now has 70,000 miles and we shat see how long it will last. I used to do oil changes @ 3,000 miles before synthetic oil was available and with synthetic oil I do them @ 5,000 miles, as any longer interval I believe will lead to a short engine life.
I guess this is the problem with the internet. No one knows if people making comments truly have any knowledge or experience or have even researched the topic. There is a lot of 'hot air' in every comments section. That said, the BMW S65 uses a double chain and this is said to place more leverage tension on the crank leading to 1st main bearing premature failure, in a suspicious number of cases...
In Nissans, oil gallery gasket failure is an engine killer.
Excellent video on timing chains. I only use extended service fully synthetic oil and change every 15 or 20 thousand kms. Because most engines are dohc these days the timing chain is critical.
Shell Helix Ultra/Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is a timing chain's best friend.
I swear by Shell Helix Ultra too.
Shell ultra plus 5/30 ECT F/S for BMW B47 Engines
I did get the timing chain checked when my 1972 Hillman Avenger engine got rebuilt 20 years ago. Perhaps I should get it checked again, but anyway it's designed to not smash up the engine if it fails.
Great technologies we used to have :)
Many modern engines are “interference” types, meaning that the valves hit the pistons of the valve timing mechanism fails. Many older engines are not designed that way. For example, the belt on my mid-80s Vauxhall Cavalier snapped and the engine suffered no damage, it just needed a new belt and was fine. That’s progress…
Older engines were made to last. Engineers just didn't have the task to "program" the engine to fail asap after it leaves the dealership. Unfortunately, this is not how it works right now. Maybe, they just want us all to buy EVs eventually.
@@DmitrySapkoNot just evs, to not drive at all will be the thing.
That's the plan.
I have an ev by choice, going back to 2020, when my horrible, nightmare pos. Peugeot 207sw scrapped itself due to chain guide failure, and I realised then they were built to fail. Only done 23000 miles from new.
They've got you with evs too.
In 2 years time, a service bill of
£1000 will be heading my way for the battery coolant replacement, currently priced at £23 a litre.
Might have it gone by then, if I can sell it.
Surely I'll get at least £500 for it, that should get me a battered 1990s volvo or rover.
That's my plan if the need arises. They have got you all ways unfortunately.
Nice video. My 2011 Mitsubishi 2 liter gave me a chain wear warning at 125 k miles. It was a little noisy on startup for a minute. At 129 k miles I changed the chain ,guides and tensioner with an aftermarket EBay kit. The new chain was about 25 pct heavier. I hope it lasts.
It is a good idea to change out a timing chain at at 85,000 miles on your vehicle. I had one snap on a 1986 Oldsmobile Toronado which caused it to completely break the engine internally so, I had to get a new engine block for this vehicle. With that being said I just recently changed out a timing chain on my 2004 Isuzu Ascender at a little over 85,000 miles so, I would not risk internal engine damage on this vehicle. I am glad I did this for piece of mind.
Remember folks, Oil is cheap, an engine or rebuild is not.
Change your oil and filter at least once or twice a year or every 10k or less whichever comes first.
On another note, some cars are stupidly reliable, like honda's and toyotas.
My uncle's 1995 accord burns oil and we drove 200 miles with the oil light on, when we got home, we checked the dipstick and it was bone dry lol.
Topped it off with new oil and she still runs great to this day!
The chain itself ive never worried about. Heck i recently did my Nissan Versa’s chain.
The reason to change them is the plastic guides and tensioners DO wear out. It’s minimal, probably could be ok not doing it, but id rather not change it. Though i will say double the manufactures recommendations.
A timing chain doesn’t stretch everyday or every time you use the car. It wouldn’t last 40.000 miles if it did. If you change your oil at half the mileage of the service interval. It will last way over 200.000 miles.
People do not want to change their oil but want to complain about the damage done by their dirty and old oil. My timing chain, timing chain guides, and tensioner are now almost 350,000 miles as it was installed from factory 31 years ago. I change my oil every 2,000 miles and it has been amazing watching how fresh oil extends the life of every component of my engine.
@ very true but 2000 miles is slightly excessive. But if it works why change it.
@@RJAH355 this is what it takes to have an engine that has never ever had work done to it in 31 years. It still uses the original headgasket. It has only had two valve cover gaskets, front oil seal (once), rear oil seal (twice) replaced in 31 years. It will be 32 years in January and i still drive my car hard. This excessive oil change as you put it, has allowed to have a problem free car which has been paid off since 1998. As a result, it allowed me to save a lot cash i used to buy a Mercedes in cash. So, if you think frequent oil changes is excessive, think again. Oil is cheaper than an engine.
@ my car is 20 years old never anything done to it either 225.000 no rocker gasket no oils seals nothing and I change my oil every 5000 miles.
@RJAH355 225K miles is NOT 350K miles.
I had a 2005 Honda Accord I bought 2nd hand with 90,000 miles I then continued to drive the car a further 180,000miles over 9 years at which point I gave it to a friend who is still driving it with a further 40000 miles, the car is still on the original Timing chain and is very reliable. Even if the timing chain did let go it owes nobody anything because its nearly 20 years old and has never broken down. Not endorsing anyone but I always changed the oil every 6 months with Castrol Magnatec oil.
Older engines were non-interference engines and did not have a problem with the valves hitting the piston.
Not all were like that. Most Ford and Mopar were indeed interference engines. There were quite a few GM that weren't, though.
I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Nobody cares. An engine old enough to be non-interference will offer pathetic performance by modern standards, a car old enough to have such an engine is a death box that handles like a bathtub on roller bearings, has wood brakes and crumples like an accordion if you crash it.
If you value the fact that the car will last a million miles with minimal maintenance over performance, fuel efficiency, handling and safety, well best of luck to ya. 99% of people disagree.
Depends from car to car, and how often the oil was changed. I had a crown Victoria with 320k miles that had the original timing chain
Of course, the video is about modern-day cars. Those old Toyotas were unkillable.
The nylon chain guide dies from heat/wear.falls to bits.chains still good.
I took my van in to my mates garage and I thought it was a belt, but my mate told me don’t bother that chain will last long than the whole van will, just service with good oil, and he was right it’s still going strong ,,he’s a good lad and a good mate
I brought a 2005 Nissan wingroad 5 years ago mileage at 79,000km. it's a 1.8 primera engine factory. Today's mileage i have done has reached 137,000 km. My trick was to change oil in the moter every 12 weeks before the oil changes color,the filter every 24 weeks, the engine has a lot of pep with the 6 speed steering padel gear change,for 5 years straight the car is used daily around town and out of town trips 😀.
Its chain drive also runs smoothly and sounds new...
Regular oil changes are far better than late oil changes...
We will continue regular oil changes in the next 3 to 5 years for any sort of engine wear, including ⛓️ chain...
If I am right, then that's the trick for longer life on your engine...
1.8 cc experience...
I have owned multiple Chevrolet 2.2 ecotec engines and change the oil excessively at 3000 miles (or less) using full synthetics. These were mostly driven on the highway. Two of them had 300k, one other 170k, and current one 100k. Chain life depends on your driving and maintenance habits. Oil is cheap compared to parts......
True. Especially if you can change oil on your own.
I agree with this content. Same is true for life time transmission oil or other fluids
Stellantis mucked up with weak timing gchains in their 1500 diesels but rectified the issue in the year 2000. Usually it is not the chain but the tensioner that wear out especially if you do regular oil changes ie every 5k, always half the manufacturers recommend service interval if your doing high milage.
That's odd. I've managed to get 300,000 km out of two Honda V-Tec engines and I have a D-Tec coming up to that mileage too. The rest of the car falls apart first. 🙂
I had to replace a chain in the CR-V 2014 2.4L engine at 120k km due to noise. It had been maintained perfectly and still failed. So, it's about luck I suppose when it comes to modern-day technologies.
In a 4G32/4G33, these last forever. I have one in a 40 year old Hyundai Pony, and have had 14 of those cars over 3 decades. I've NEVER had a failure, and some of the engines got up to 400k. The only time I've seen one damaged was a friend's '85 - one link broke off and was loose, making noise against the tensioner, so he took off the rocker cover and moved the chain until he could see the broken link and... popped it off with pliers. The chain design is double thickness to the ones shown here, and I bet it'll last 40 more years :P
Chain will last for life time
Slides and tensioner will NOT.
Here in the USA we normally change our cars engine oil at 5000 miles and filter . There are countless vehicles that have reached 200000-300000 without ever changing the timing chain . I expect it is because of the schedule of oil changes . Maybe in your country to shorten your oil changes .
Europe is more inclined to following the recommended maintenance routine. But I've seen a lot of cars from the US that hadn't seen oil change for ages.
@@DmitrySapko Why do cars there then need a chain replacement and here , never heard of anyone , instill it breaks .
A friend’s Honda Jazz chain just failed at 150,000 miles, jumping the teeth and wrecking the engine. They certainly don’t last forever.
Yep, and that's Honda. One of the most reliable manufacturers.
That was not the chain failing. It was a chain tensioner failing !
@@thefreedomguyuk Good point, you could be right.
Well owner got their monies worth 150k miles.
260,000 miles or 420,000 km on my Honda fit which is a jazz chain still fine runs fine. I changed oil by the maintenance minder put in 5W-30 full synthetic with about a half a cup of Lucas every oil change
My 2004 Pontiac Vibe has a 1.8L Toyota engine (corolla/Matrix) with a timing chain and currently has 280,000 miles, operated on Amsoil full synthetic for the last 230K mi. The engine is quiet, runs smooth and when I replaced the valve cover gasket not long ago, the inside was free of any build up and had a nice golden color to it. Not sure how long it will last, but I will keep driving it. 10,000 mi oil changes by the way.
That's a legendary engine. Very simple and reliable
I had an O-ring *drive chain* , fully exposed to the elements , lubricated with an oiler of my own design , on a 1250cc motorcycle , last 93,000 km .
It was replaced after it developed a clicking sound which turned out to be a cracked pin bush.
The actual wear was only 30% of the recommended elongation. (chains do not stretch , the wear at the link pins increases the clearance in the side plate holes allowing the chain to elongate).
If that bush remained intact the chain could have lasted 300,000km
188.000 km on my Alfa 159 2.2 JTS. I am the second owner. The timing chain is still the factory one and good. The previous owner had the oil changes done every 20.000 km. I do them every 5-6.000 km. It had 173.000 km when I bought it.
Mercedes chain kits we fitted on single chains , duplex chains didn’t stretch , some tensioners on 110 engines seized and required renewing , 117 engines chains were all good !
Still have the original timing chains in my 04 explorer, 186k miles, no rattle. I change oil every 5000 (or 8000 km)
Toyota timing chains last over 600000 kms, I work for a taxi company which 80 percent of the fleet are Toyota. 40 percent of them have over 500000kms and have never been opened up, engine will dye before the chain needs replacement
Changed timing chains on a 17 years old AUDI at 210'000 kilometres, and it is V6 engine, thus the process was not cheap. 😆 MAYBE it could last longer, but it also became quite obvious, that car was neglected before sale - all spark plugs had to be swapped too, plus some work done of crank case ventilation, and fluid in gearbox was basically black, even wheels were out of alignment and headlights needed polishing. After all that got fixed, car is really nice, fingers crossed, might have even fixed oil consumption it seems (will know for sure after next 800-1500km), it was within acceptable limits, yet still annoying, as my older car needed no oil added in between oil changes.
The strain put on timing chains when starting the engine is a major source of stretching. So avoid too many short journeys and turn off the auto-stop that's designed to save fuel when stopped at traffic lights etc. This feature can also lead to premature failure of starter motor. Regular oil changes will keep timing chains running smoothly
Toyota has timing chain that'll last 300,000. Just change the oil and filter every 3000 miles with full synthetic.
Not every Toyota. The older ones - yes, I agree. Almost any new engine won't last 300k. They are not designed for that.
Timing chains used to be replaced at 100,000 miles especially if you had a GM with the nylon gears but at most you could go over that milage now the chains are way narrower and as weak as the belts so rule of thumb if your car is approaching the 100,000 marks look at the chain for signs of wear, rule of thumb oil changes every 3,000 for conventional , 5,000 for synthetic or blend don't believe 10,000 or above nonsense that number just give you a little lead way if you miss the 5,000 mark
That is the reason I still like the timing belt cars such as Honda V6. I can replace timing belt myself. It is relatively easy.
Thank you thank you thank you for being you great information especially if you are a person who loves to keep maintenance right up the top end so the vehicle can operate properly. We know about temperature underneath the bonnet. When the stretches timing goes out it can be corrected through the computer system, however That slap and early morning start with a loose train is what they call a death battle. I have a very rare B.M.W that it seems B.M.W want back as they only made 50 of them to race the 1998 anniversary of B.M.W. Great engineering past they are a fabulous motor vehicle , however it’s best that you read the manual and understand what you’re doing as an automotive electrical and mechanical engineer. I am still learning and I passed every exam that I have in control of the military. They really train you well thank you for being you.
I can't agree with this totally. I've never had to replace a timing chain EVER! Have taken multiple vehicles over 200K with absolutely no hint of a timing chain problem. However, they can stretch but at 150K I don't think it could stretch enough to ever have issues.
I guess you never had a Chrysler 2.7 v six
@chrisjeppesen2993 no I haven't....we're they that bad?
@@dalephillips8250 the 2.7 was completely worthless. so bad that I would never have another chrysler anything. before this engine which I bought new and took the best care of, I was very loyal to the brand.
I have two Toyotas with D4D engine, one with 350k km and other with 560km , never changed the timing chain and it doesn't rattle. Oil changes every 8k km. Depends on the quality of the engine also
The timing chain in my friends car was still fine when he sold it with over 600k miles on it but of course that was a Mercedes W123 diesel.
On the other end there was the BMW M47 where it failed all the time presumably due to a design fault.
And there is the Ford 2.2L diesel also used by Jaguar which must be changed at 120k miles but that had a strange combination of chain and belts which took over from the chain to drive the twin overhead cams. The replacement kit cost north of £600 plus labour!
I'm up to 373,000km on original chain with a 2002 e39 525d. I change the oil and filter annually around 8-10k miles, about twice as frequently as manufacturer recommends.
Body rust and injector issues but chain is fine.
A big problem is car owners who need a oil change only & not a full service being unable to find a mechanic shop that will just change the oil as needed and not push the full service at $250. This is way car owners don't change the oil when needed.
2002 subaru outback.h6
404034 kms, original chain.
Engine fully resealed at 278k kms.
Only a tensioner blade was replaced at full engine reseal due to a small part missing.
Dmitry, the problem is that the great majority of people who need to appreciate the simple facts aren't the people watching this video. I think you are hinting spot on though... my deduction is that there's a common European auto industry, unspoken, life expectancy of 10 years, and/or 200K Km (125K miles) of reliable life by design... so perhaps - account for such major jobs discussed by those points, costing such against the relative depreciation of a replacement vehicle, and maybe you've got basis of economic everyday motoring.
Agree with that. In 1980s and 1990s we had 500,000 km cars, then in 2000s it all dropped to 300,000 km, in 2010s things came to 200,000 km. Now ICE engines are claimed by manufacturers to last 150,000 km (Renault 1.0 TCE, Citrone 1.2L, etc.)
@@DmitrySapko There are technical reasons for this, not least lightening engines and having them conform to ever more stringent emission regulations, but some of the design decisions are ridiculous... for the person who intends to retain a vehicle over a long life that is. There are nunerous people I know who take absolutely NO interest in the term durability of a car and expect to complain about prices of service or such, when in fact they got drawn into the world of PCP marketing of their car. They do not look at the cost of their motoring over time and accommodate a budget, and subsequent 'value' for their resources invested in it. The best we can do is distribute proven knowledge of how best to cope... and I note some useful comments below. Being aware of your model(s) in great detail, and acting upon true service requirements, rather than reacting too late, or sleep walking into an known issue, thinking it won't happen to mine!
My mother has a '99 BMW E46 323i. Oil change intervals have been 25,000 - 30,000 km, according to manufacturer's recommendations. With 312,000 km the engine ist still running fine. 20 years ago an automotive engineer predicted the engine would outlast the body.
BMW used to make great things. It's not like that anymore.
did 565000km in my 540i, plenty of Autobahn thrashing, masses of it. No noise. ALWAYS started even at -10c. Chains parts all in tact. Oil changed every 20.000km, 0w-40 fully synth. Always.
I believe a duplex timing chain and 5,000 mile oil changes with synthetic oil will provide a very reliable package. I don't care for the link plate (silent) chains as I consider them weak due to the pin size connecting the links together. A simplex roller chain may be adequate for engines that have less power and lower RPM limits if serviced with synthetic oil and 5,000 mile change intervals. I know high RPM motorcycle engines built to high HP levels will destroy a link plate timing chain and the engine they reside in, as they can't handle it and must be refitted with a roller chain.
My chain started rattling wayy before my Hundai i30 mk1 reached 100k km. I took it as a warning and got the chain replaced. And i gotta say, i was lucky - many other owners of the same car with the same engine had to replace whole engines.
As the chain stretches, the engine will also become much noisier. I remember after the chain was replaced, it was almost as if i got completely different car!
It´s the same with "lifetime" oil in transmission - it´s meant as lifetime of the oil, not the transmission itself. Even the interval of "100k km" can be too long - i´ve already replaced mine, as i had some trouble switching gears - since then, gearbox acts as brand new.
I´m also replacing the engine oil each year. Ain´t no way for me to reach scheduled range, so time limit it is.
My Audi TTRS needed new chains & tensioners at 56,000 miles, quite an expensive job!
To gaze upon any Audi Cam deive/Timing system is to witness Engineering Madness.
Change you oil more often ( oil is cheap engine is not) max every 10k. I personally change every 5k KM.
Use a good quality full synthetic oil that suits your engine. I use API SP oil ( gasoline car) because it is the newest specification and has chain protection criteria checked.
Always change the oil filter with every oil change.
It depends on the manufacturer. Let's say a Lexus timing chain will last about 500,000 miles. Some other manufacturers as little as 150,000 miles. Often it is the plastic tensioners or timing belt guides that fail, not the actual chain. Sure helps if the owner is attentive to oil changes.
That was true for Lexus and Toyota 10 years ago. Now it's very unlikely it may last that long. But sure, the lifespan still depends on the manufacturer.
Just change your oil people... 5k miles or every 6 months for low mileage drivers.. it's not expensive and takes 5 mins.
Manufacturers want your engine to explode as soon as possible after 36 months. Your objectives are the complete opposite to their objectives.
And, contrary to some people's opinions, both dealership mechanics and independent mechanics want the same thing most owners want: For the car to last as long as possible after the warranty expires (used car buyers also want that). Yes, that means dealerships are in conflict with their own manufacturers in this regard, because dealerships make more money on post-warranty repairs than on new car sales or warranty repairs. Where owners come into conflict with mechanics is whether a particular repair needs to be done _right as the time_ the mechanic recommends it. That takes the owner's own effort learn enough about the car to understand.
When I rebuild engines I always use a new timing chain, sprockets and tensioner. After 200k they usually have wear on the sprockets and have stretched a bit. They prob would work but for the cost it’s best to replace.
Puting a new chain on old sprockets,is frowned upon in the motorcycle world,but done often when replacing timing chains on cars.
Cars have ten times the engine oil capacity of a bike and sprockets don't wear so much, car engines also don't see the revs that bikes do.
The chain in my 1.2 twinport opel Corsa started making noise during startup. Replaced everything at 200.000km's and compared to the new chain the old one was a bit stretched. Parts from febi were pretty cheap, and it's runs good and silent now.
Another issues with timing chains is that manufacturers are continually trying to reduce the width etc. Less drag, better emissions etc. (The same applies to things like big end and main bearings)
Combined with longer oil change intervals bad things will happen. See the GM 3.2/3.6L V6 for details... Of course, narrow chains mean narrow tensioners as well so they now fail more often too.
In the old GM big V-8 timing chains would be stretched enough to throw your timing off at about 50,000 miles. In smaller ones I change it every 100,000 miles. My 1987 Suburban was still " on time" when I sold it at 287,000 miles because of that. With belts, every 75,000 miles is a good rule of thumb.
Back in the early 60s, some US V8s had metal timing sprockets, and, oil changed at 2k miles, would last the normal life of the car. So,,after a while, manufacturers began using a nylon upper sprocket. Pontiacs regularly broke these as early as 45k miles, Chevys a little later, Buicks maybe 70k-80k miles, and Olds a similar time. As in certain Ford V8s, an Olds chain failure was likely to bend some valves. HOWEVER, a simple approach avoided these problems: In those days, the water pump would last maybe 30k miles. So when you did the water pump the first time, you just continued farther back and replaced the timing set with all-metal, maybe HD.
Today's pushrod V8s will go probably 200k miles, maybe more, without busting a chain. But if I needed a water pump, I'd still do the chain at the same time; you're almost there anyway. Fancier setups, I'd do on factory schedule if there is one; else whenever adjacent to the chain or belt. For those on the back of the engine, I'd consider whether a top overhaul was in the offing, or whether the whole engine was coming due. Change oil early and regularly, and some of these engines will go a LONG way, so maybe you just bank overhaul money against the day. Do keep in mind that crate engine prices vary WIDELY; some later engines are REAL pricey.
Timing chains used to be great, but cost cutting and reduction in chain width has made them inferior to a belt. With a belt you expect to change it and it is generally made relatively early to do. Chains wear out and are a nightmare to change in comparison.
The SAAB 900 had early mileage failure on the timing chain, SAAB them modified the engine. My SAAB 900, had a duplex timing chain that would out last the car, I did 298K miles during 14 years in my ownership, when I sold the car the timing chain was still very serviceable so was the car.
My next car had the rubber band good for 100K miles, yeah right, change them at 60K. I'm now back with timing chain in a M-B, a car built with a lot of common sense and solid engineering. I am a retired Plant Engineer, did that for 50 years so I know C***p when I see it or hear it. Just a note I also service my cars on time not mileage every six month usually 5 to 7 thousand miles cannot beat clean oil.
307 000km on my 2012 ford focus timing chain, and no weird noises. I change the oil every 8500km with full synthetic. The timing chains on my lowish hour can am quad were damn close to failing. All depends on manufacturer and maintenance.
I strongly believe the quality plus the size of chains has reduced overtime.. coupled with the longer service intervals are contributing to the lower timing chain life
I suspect worn or "stretched" chains, or excessive guide wear are caused primarily by design flaws on particular engines. Inadequate lubrication. They seem to last forever on some models and are a huge problem on others.
I thought about getting a car with a timing chain because of the longevity but then realised when you change a belt you also change the water pump, and overall it’s not that expensive and I’ve done it myself sometimes. So I’m sticking with the belt as I know when to change it and the water pump.. instead of leaving it up to random noises …
I have owned so many cars with timing chains with very high mileages over 200000 miles. Never ever had a problem! Stay on top of oil changes at 10-12 kmiles, use a quality oil and replace the tensioner if you hear any chain noise. Stay on top of your maintenance. Most issues are caused by user error!
My old 2.2 iCTDi Civic was sold with 227k miles on it last year, original timing chain no rattle. Oil changes every 12.5k miles. It's still going now as I see it every day. Never been touched.
for most vehicles with a timing chain if it was designed decently from the beginning using full synthetic oil and changing it every 5000 miles or 6 months will make the chain last quite a long time. the chain is lubricated with engine oil and the better oil you use and the more frequently you chain it makes sure the chain it lubricated properly and reduces wear.
I can tell you that I have a Mazda 3 with 415,000 miles on it.
The clutch is original, no engine work has been done. I change the oil every 5k miles, the transmission fluid every 75k or so, spark plugs have been done 3 times. I have only replaced the serpentine belt. Am I wrong for letting it go for so long? I'm just assuming it's expensive enough to not be worthwhile and just get a used engine if it goes.
Why should you be wrong using it if it's still up and running? Driving it till it drops and swapping the engine is also an acceptable strategy. But finding a good engine will be really hard.
I noticed a rattle in my subaru with 153,000 miles or 246,000 km. I didn't know what it was but something else broke so I had to pull the engine to fix. I am thinking of changing the chains but don't know if I have the skill.
It's not that hard to change the chains. It's hard to take the engine out. So since it's out already, it's worth replacing those chains. Boxer engines will die if the chain jumps.
As an aside, sometimes cam or crank timing sensors kick up a fault code with a stretched chain, this is a warning of whats to come.
Timing chain do not stretched. The links wear and the length of the chain increases.
My engines get new Mobil1 every 5000 miles. I don't expect any timing chain issues.
With the overhead cams, the cam chains require guides; the guides themselves often fail, being plastic/phenolic.
I've got an 2004 olds Alero with the 2.5 inline 4 with a little over 340000km I just took it apart to check the timing chain it still looked exactly like the new parts I had encase it was getting bad. At this point I'm sure the rust will kill it before the engine dies. I change the oil every 5000km or 6 months whichever comes first.
I guess that timing chains don't have as much stress put on them but as a reference, a motorcycle chain can easily stretch by 1-2 cm (unevenly) in 20 000 km then it usually needs to be replaced.
We have never changed a cam chain and none of them show signs of significant wear.
All of our cars do a lot of km before we sell them.
BTW: If the cam chain isn't wearing neither are the guides.
We bond a lubricant to insides of the engine:
This extends the lifespan of the engine by 2~10x.
🙂 #XcelPlus
People seriously under estimate the importance of engine oil changes. I'm an old diesel mechanic and I've seen them all. My old father was a 3000 mile man for cars of that period. I myself am a 5000 mile oil change man. 6000 miles or 10,000 km is enough for modern motors with modern oils. Tractors and trucks are changed at every 100 hours of higher RPM operations. Filters are changed at every oil change. Oil and filters are very cheap compared to an engine overhaul.