The Math of SMT V: Vengeance #1: Damage; How Does It Work?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Did they fix damage yet?
Damage used to be FUBAR because of scaling, but now we know how it works! So what's better; Physical or Magical? Can we take a boss low level? Find out now!
Tried some new things in this video; let me know how you think of it!
Special Thanks to:
CTOBN for the formulas; this vid wouldn't exist without you: steamcommunity...
@jaffinator2166 for the video footage; you're why this was as easy to make as it was
Clockwork Prince for the "Lesbian Culture Mermaid:" clockworkprinc...
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"Outleveling an enemy will not make them deal less damage" honestly sounds more like a pro than a con to me. My complaint against level scaling was both ways, I didn't want to be dealing less damage when underleveled and didn't want the boss to be a complete pushover when I'm accidentally overleveled. I'm glad level scaling is essentially non-existent for scripted fights.
The only damage reduction is the vit stat and is pretty justify due bigger number = more defense
So *that’s* why it feels like they have HP thresholds.
16:30 hearing the obbious future robin sound increasingly annoyed the more times he's correcting his past self was surprisingly amusing
It was a pleasure to gather footage for this video Robin! Can't wait for you to get to the episode where you discuss Queen's Decree's crit rate and how nucking futs it is.
in general crit rate will be interesting. queens decree just benefits from its hitcount.
Alternate Title: “Robin Yaps about Damage Calculations to Unsuspecting SMT Fans”
that mermaid edit is beautiful i love women
lesbian culture mermaid
It's funny how Masakado has such a massive damage multiplier boost. It must be because he's a superboss who fights you solo unlike Demi-fiend and Satan.
Okay but when is SMT V gonna start turning the rng seed into a decimal and dividing it by 10 to decide how much money you lose
There's some crazy/beautiful person who has created an Excel spreadsheet with ALL of this information stored that will allow effective damage calculation for every scenario in the game. If there is and they see this; I hope all of your attacks become critical.
So Atlus went from "TRUNCATE UNTIL IT'S LOGICAL DO IT DO IT DO IT" And now uses "If" like healthy coders. Nice.
That's very cool! I had no idea Masakado was cheating so hard.
also with the balance of strength and magic, i can fully confirm that it is balanced.
heavenly ikuyumi hits just as hard as i see others hit murakumos. (assuming all debuffs are up) which made me really happy compared to original V where magic almighty was a joke and lucifer laughs at anyone who didnt know impalers was a thing. (my original smt V chaos route run was really just sad with how magic just wasnt doing shit when not focused, seemingly broke scripts when focused, and then got completely fucked when lucifer showed up)
Ikuyumi probably beats murakumo by a wide margin if you can get lucky with Lakshmi or lahmu crits
@@kingkobra4910 based on base power ikuyumi is stronger. but magic crit rate is kinda ass so murakumo gets better benefits from crits and crit zealot.
... you know i was always wondering why lvl based magatsuhi damage skills exist, since the power didnt look impressive on the fusion calc like ever
with the damage formula it finally makes sense.
This is an amazing resource just to see what all the different skills actually DO
I dunno, I kinda like that bosses don't have level scaling. It makes it feel like you beat bosses on your own merit, more than usual at least. Great for players on a first run, less great for people running NG+9 that are tiredly clicking the buttons while watching a boss that for all intents and purposes should've died three minutes ago.
I honestly like it a lot more, in base smtv if you accidentally over leveled it was no fun at all
@@patrickripleyiii134 and then in base smtv when you did true neutral the final boss was a fucking joke. because making a 96 superboss a true neutral requirement and then having the final boss be 90 was a bad idea
@@Flutterdark_ exactly, at least true Lucifer is lv 99 now
@@patrickripleyiii134 and also level scale isnt a thing now so honestly even the 90 version could kick ass if it still existed
Yeah the bosses not having any level scaling literally just sold vengeance to me.
i rarely click so fast
VENGENCE MATH HYPE
Amazing Vid! I'm thrilled to see the level scaling gutted, it was always so stupid that you'd basically never be able to fight the final boss at full strength because you had to kill Shiva first.
Ah smt math a hood classic
Finally math as Lucifer intended
Very much looking forward to more Vengeance math videos, the nocturne ones were videos I frequently went back to. For the eventual Luck video, is it safe to assume that we'll have the numbers for Accumulative Resistance, and how much luck/potential boost your ailment chances?
Yep!
I'm really excited for a Luck breakdown, I've been using a Luck-Strength Nahobino with a high Luck Pixie from like lvl 45 to endgame, with actually viable Venom Chaser + Pixie's reliable poison or just Wrath Tempest and other ailments from Pixie.
(I gave her every single incense and grimoire I had, and she ended up with super high Luck so ended up going all in).
Honestly the most fun build I've ever used in SMT.
...Until I figured out how to use an attack up to 20 times per turn, then it turned a bit too OP... (Omnipotent succession + omagatoki: charge, then sending demons to stock. Making a joke of bosses.)
I hate smt. I hate math. According to math, two negatives create a positive. Hence I love this video.
Your nocturne math videos were how I found you channel so this was a nice surprise.
Now you need to figure out what the highest possible damage output is in SMT V 😅Not counting Demi-fiend's ultimate move of course.
one more math problem rejected!
This is sure going to be helpful.
Personally really happy to hear the scripted fights part
I'm still playing and have been underleveled the whole time. On OG I had to go out of my way to grind so I could actually fight the bosses. Now, I don't have to do that so W in my book
Lets go! Do math.
19:04
save me sapphic Mermaid
sapphic Mermaid
sapphic Mermaid... save me..
Lesbian Culture Mermaid 🙏
woke up before work, and I never thought math would be the perfect compliment for my coffee!
Awesome video. Are you going to do the math for Ailment and Critical hits?
Call me Akihiko cause *I’ve been waiting for this.*
Never woulda thought kanbei viel would increase. Great job with the video.
Kannabi does not increase the damage; multiplying the damage by 0.7 decreases the result. If you use Kannabi, the damage goes down
@@RobinandZephyr oh my bad read that wrong guess it make sense to punish the player in a way.
I think you are misunderstanding; Kannabi lowers incoming damage. That 0.7 would be applied if someone was attacking into you after you used Kannabi.
@@RobinandZephyr thanks.
No wonder masado would 1 or 2 shot my whole team at level 99 while fully buffed and spamming kannabi veil
I adore this cause the math in game on my first playthrough felt like I didn’t do much even with my buffs up and me debuffing the enemies now it makes sense
This is fantastic, very fun video!
I do have a critique, though. Maybe I’m biased because I consume a lot of math content on RUclips, but I would recommend using smaller variable names for some of the more complicated formulas. I understand there’s a billion different variables so you’d run out of letters and it would all just confusing, but it can be hard to read the formulas. Another thing that might be helpful is writing some of the formulas with square roots in Desmos or LaTeX or something to see what the square root effects more easily, because it can be hard to read even with parentheses embedded. Just nitpicks from a math/physics major! :)
I have never heard of Desmos or LaTex; I will definitely look into these! And thankfully, I don’t think any formulas get as insanely bulky as the Damage formula. Lol
The stream ramblings. In easily digested format 😅
Uhm, excuse me? The 400 multiplyer of Masakado is freaking insane, thank you for this video!
I hate masakado so so much lol
This is actually really fun information, here's the thing, I recently uploaded my true masakado fight, but before doing that, I made some calcs and a few comparisons with other bosses, and I realize, wait a minute, is critical zealot that huge of a boost? with plethoras and everything, and factoring in his innate skill, then I when with a test crit build, I still wasn't doing enough compared to him, realize his innate was a thing, since it stacks not only crit but crit damage into the equation after every other calc is already is being put into the fray, I had to keep trying to see where the threshold would be, and I arrive at a maximum of 842 vitality on my demons to withstand 3 crits from freikugel at beyond max hp, with everyone fully buff and masakado fully debuff, which also meant he got 6 stacks on his part, which I know basically he got a damage increase, but I really needed to do more damage and I was too lazy to get defense down only on beelzebud, or get shiva which would have accomplish the same, I had run some calcs as well after using masakado, with around 600 str, he doubles, and triples the damage of the nahobido on crits, this accounting for critical zealot and plethoras as well as stacks, my mc has a bit more than 800 str because of the masakado fight since it was kinda needed for that specific fight, and yeah it was on normal and godborn, so adding all that, true masakado felt like he was doing a lot more damage than ally masakado, and by a huge margin, good to know he was indeed a fucking asshole and cheated with that insane 400% damage.
All in all, really good information, I being having a blast with smtv vengeance, I played and own the vanilla version, which was harder just because of bad system mechanics, my brain has turn to mush after beating smtvv 3 times in a single day, just trying to get all ending and go to hard mode godborn and do my final run for fun.
I did not expect Satan to not cheat. I was thinking he had some fucky wucky things going on with Megido Arc and his Damage Intake. Turns out only Masakado is a dirty cheater.
i couldn't find the opportunity to mention it but let me tell you I will FIND A WAY TO MENTION THAT
But let me tell you, yes
Yes it does fucking cheat
I wish I saw this before I 100% the game lol great video
I might be insane. But I'd love the DeSu numbers. Along with the Devil summoner math if that exists
I really enjoy hearing about these formulae, but sometimes its hard for me to visualize that just by some examples. I would enjoy some visulaization as graphs for some of these formulae. Desmos is a tool I really like to use to do that, because you can create variables in functions and set others to specific values. I think this could help to understand the key takeaways about some functions
actually i had a thought. do mitamas also have a bonus multiplier to their weakness? i remember hitting them with a pierce and it doing barely anything. it could have been just me thinking wrong cause of the multiplier of weakness but i feel mitamas also have weakness modifiers.
Actually, yes! Mitama will never be weak to Physical, take 50% to Almighty, and have 900% weakness to one random type!
@@RobinandZephyr figured it was this strong. cause when i tried to give a friend a setup with impalers to hit the mitama it did basically nothing. good to know the multiplier is this strong. (and yet still there are times i dont 1 shot)
We're so back
Your pfp RULES
I was hoping you were going to go into how luck affects your skills. Im curious if theres a soft cap or aomething
Luck does not affect damage; though it does affect some things! Stay tuned for more~
So, is this video finally explained why Satan Megido Ark only has 10pwr?
i wish you where man mathematics teacher
wait so in nocturne strength is HELPED by levels rather then HURT like magic is? bruh
Correct; Strength-based skills scale linearly with both level and Strength, whereas Magic does
What it does
Very nice explaination. The example really helped
I have one request, can i get a link to Chiro's theme, i cant find it for the life of me lol
It’s quest - LMs’ - from SMT V!
Damage stat + Demon Bias=99,999 damage everytime.
speaking of something special noone thought of before. a friend of mine wanted to build a demon with high ailment potential and asked me for pointers. so i just gave the demon a poison build so that it could actually contribute to damage. poison stacked with adapt and master hits surprisingly good, nothing world moving but its still nice.
on that note. with the formulas in your back pocket. do you have the math to diminishing returns?
hell burner using strength
Choose your own path in life.
Here we go again...
9:58 Hold up a second. I was watching a ideo of KaiserKruez fighting the level 999 Tiamat rematch, he used Freikugel EX with a Level 150 demon and it did like 6 damage. Although, this was coming from Masakado with a low magic stat, does Freikugel EX use the magic stat?
While I can't tell you what that thing's stats look like, I'll use Hydra at Lv 999 for an example. At 999, it has 733 VItality. Freikugel EX would be POW 2600 off of a casting stat of 160, which would do around 9 damage on Hard. Compare that to Murakumo (POW 270, 330 on crit) off of a casting stat of 999, and you're doing 370 on a non-crit at +9 Potential.
The issue is how Magatsuhi skills using Level as a casting stat works with Godborn's higher stat spreads. In a standard playthrough, a casting stat of 109 isn't that bad. You might have better casting stats by the end, but the high Power values make up for it. In Godborn, where you can buy balms to get casting stats to 999, 160 (Lv+10) as a casting stat starts looking kind of pathetic. Combine that with the fact that Magatsuhi skills can't benefit from potential, and you get Magatsuhi skills falling off HARD the deeper you get into the virtual trainer.
@@RobinandZephyr Wait so damaging Magatsuhi skills actually do use the Magic stat if theyre of a magic type? Kaiser and I had assumed they didnt use the Strength/Magic stats. This Masakado, Kaiser hadnt bothered Incensing its Magic, so no wonder it did sod all. But anyway, thanks for the video and the reply, super informative!
No no; I mention this in the video. All Magatsuhi skills (except Twilight Wave) use the “Root,” which equals Level+10 for all units below Lv. 150, as the casting stat
@@RobinandZephyr oh right, I misheard you, gotcha
Yep; that's the big problem. On Godborn, your casting stats can well and proper dwarf 160, so eventually, it's like fighting God with a squirt gun.
I am working on a Pokémon TTRPG because I don't fully like any of the ones currently out there. I went through how pokemon does its math in the games and had a small panic attack.
Math request Robin: I need you to do the maths between a critical aura'd aramasa vs the phys attacks that deal increased damage on critical
Easy one, here: Aramasa is POW 20 eight times, so it’s effectively POW 160. If they’re all critical, this puts it at POW 240. Meanwhile the earliest skill to get boosted on crit is Bestial Bite, which is POW 130, but 200 on crit. Thus, a POW 200 crit would be effectively POW 300
TL;DR: Aramasa is strong for the point in the game where you find it, but if your build is crit based, it’s better for fishing for non-guaranteed crits
@@RobinandZephyr Really helpful to know. Much thanks
I had a question on the beatdown/power punch one if someone had their hp up by the bowl skill it would deal more damage?
Great question! Sadly, there is a cap of 2.0x on the bonus provided by HP for Power Punch and Beatdown. Would've been funny though. LOL
@@RobinandZephyr oh thanks i cant wait for the next one but i curious someone had the old level scaling formula i think aside of the innates skills the damage formula would be the same
Inseet school-taught Maths joke here
-STOP. DOING. MATH.-
-NUMBERS WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GIVEN NAMES-
-YEARS OF COUNTING yet NO REAL-WORLD USE FOUND for going higher than your FINGERS.-
-Wanted to go higher anyway for a laugh? We had a tool for that: It was called "GUESSING"-
-"Yes please give me ZERO of something. Please give me INFINITY of it." -Statements dreamed up by-
-the utterly deranged.-
-LOOK at what Mathematicians have been demanding your Respect for all this time, with all the-
-calculators & abacus we built for them.-
-(This is REAL Math,done by REAL Mathematicians):-
-????? ??????? ????????????????-
-"Hello I would like =@-$'&#%' apples please"-
-They have played us for absolute fools-
In all seriousness, glad to see the math videos return!
This has utter psychotic madness vibes and I'm all here for it.
been wond'rin
Just wish the numbers would be increased for the charge up skills to be at least like 2.2 ish? On one hand it makes it so these are not totally must haves and increases build diversity. Smt 5 vengeance is already bucking fonkers as is.
On the other…if I’m consuming a turn to charge wouldn’t it be better to just. Attack twice. It’s the true strike in dnd 5e conundrum almost, but at least here it can be saved up for later and for arguably less resource cost.
You’re spot on: Charge/Concentrate are usually cheaper than the skills you’d be using, so you’re sacrificing 10% of your damage per round for MP conservation. However, since SMT has such a malleable skill system, you can tailor your team, as well as the MC, to the current situation, so often times, Restore or High Restore are better. At Max potential, Ruinous Thunder costs 12 MP; High Restore makes it cost -8. Lil
Even with Charge and Concentrate being less of a boost, they've still got clear use cases.
1: Use one the turn before you use an Omagatoki skill to stack multipliers.
2: Conserve MP when using certain very expensive unique skills.
3: Certain fights reward doing more damage in less attacks. The Thoth abscess, Onyankopon fight, and Mastema fight are examples of this, the first two due to enemy healing and the last due to his innate skill.
4: Omagatoki: Charge, Tripura Samhara, and Megalomania work better with Charge and Concentrate because they give a larger damage bonus than the Donum skills.
Charge and Concentrate are available earlier than usual, so I think Atlus is aware that this change made these skills niche tools instead of staples (Lv15 Bicorn and Lv19 Aitvaras are where they first become available in Vengeance, compare this to P5Royal, where Lv 27 Setanta and Lv 40 Thoth are the earliest ways to obtain them).
With all due respect, what the hell does any of this mean? How does any of this make any sense?
It means 470 different variables go into damage but vitality build is king
Based vit build
@@RobinandZephyr to loosely quote Zeph, "gotta get more VIT, Robin"
on a "im just playing the game" basis, alot of this can be ignored since its stuff in the background you dont need to worry about.
tho a few things, like how pleromas stack or how every damage modifier is multiplicative, helps in making informed builds.
I'm not good at math either just building needs to be hundreds to be crazy.
So Impalers Glory is stronger than Savage? Cuz 3.4X > 2.0X
If you’re at 1 HP, yes
wait masakados just gets a 4x damage mult FOR FREE why? no wonder he 1 shot my shit why the f did he get 4x?
gbless
oh hey, first.
wait.... so all scripted fights NEVER level scale? no wonder it was so easy to fight bosses higher level then me, or how matador could still rek my shit 20 levels over
personally i welcome scripted fights not scaling you. but when scripted fights dont, why do normal fights? why have level scaling at all when every single important fight doesnt use it?. it feels like a needless inclusion at this point. it probably exists so that random encounters at some point stop beign annoying but it still feels off.
tho i think if estoma was a level gap based skill like it was in say nocturne then the scaling wouldnt be needed since you could just negate low level fights.
that's just basically to retain to keep some of the challenge of random encounters, while also rewarding being a bit overlevel, just like how in the vanilla version, getting on a random encounter could result in a game over, without that level scaling, it would be almost too difficult to get one shooted unless severely under level, or with really shitty rng.
So Atlus went from "TRUNCATE UNTIL IT'S LOGICAL DO IT DO IT DO IT" And now uses "If" like healthy coders... For the most part.
Nice.