Was Anne Boleyn involved with any other men? - Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 10 апр 2019
- In today's instalment of her series "Questions about Anne Boleyn", Claire Ridgway, author of several books on Anne Boleyn and the Boleyns, considers the other men (apart from the obvious man, Henry VIII) that Anne Boleyn was involved with or linked to.
In Part 1, Claire looks at the negotiations to marry Anne Boleyn off to James Butler of Ireland, and then Anne's romance with courtier Henry Percy, son and heir of the Earl of Northumberland. What happened and why didn't Anne end up with either of these young men? Claire explains.
My previous video "Was Anne Boleyn sent abroad because of her scandalous behaviour?" can be found at • Was Anne Boleyn sent a... .
The article I mention, which goes into more detail on the Butlers, can be found at www.theanneboleynfiles.com/ne....
Henry was nothing short of a horrible person. Could anyone be more self centered and self serving? Truth is, Anne was too good for him.
ALL his wives were!
I wholeheartedly agree! King Henry was a tyrannical egomaniac. Anne Boleyn would have been better off with any of her other suitors. But she had the misfortune to catch the king's eye and this king definitely didn't take no for an answer.
You are judging Henry by 21st Century standards. In his time the concept of the Divine Right of Kings was an embedded in a 16th Century monarch. Henry merely ruled under Divine Rights. Henry was desperate for a son. He blurred morality but he knew his first two wife's were innocent. For putting the State before the heart is normative for a 16th century absolute monarch.
@@ingriddubbel8468 well said, Ingrid!
Yes, he was. But I'd probably behave in a similar fashion if I was a Tudor king. And you probably would have too.
I’ve always felt sorry for Henry Percy. It was obviously super stressful for him to have to be at Anne Boleyn’s trial. He was probably also worried that somehow they were going to try to implicate him again, even though he’d already twice denied any involvement. I believe that even Thomas Wyatt (the poet, Wyatt Sr.), got arrested I think, but they let him go.
Yeah Wyatt was arrested. So glad he was let go.
Thank you for talking about Henry Percy. I always thought his story was quite sad and tragic, and whether or not he was actually still in love with Anne up to the time of her death, it seems pretty likely to me that being forced to break his engagement with her against his will was something he never really got over. I don’t wonder too much about James Butler, my “what if” thoughts (when I have them) tend to center around Anne and Henry Percy.
The reality is that during the 16th century both Henry Percy and Anne Boleyn that they had to marry according to their parents' wishes. They also knew that Anne Boleyn had a much lower rank than Henry Percy. If she married Henry Percy, Anne would have made a tremendous leap up the social latter. Whether Anne was in love with Henry is moot. She would not have passed up an opportunity to "marry up". Anne undoubtedly set her cap for him. Henry was probably entranced by Anne but he would have been a surprisingly naive if he thought he could arrange his own marriage. I have the feeling that Henry Percy was somewhat unsophisticated. Anne and Henry might have thought that they could present their marriage as an accomplished fact. Personally, I believe some form of marriage with possible physical intimacy occurred because Henry Percy said he could not in honor repudiate Anne. Henry VIII also tried to use this marriage or quasi-marriage as a reason to annul his marriage to Anne before his execution. I do not think Henry interfered in the Anne and Henry Percy relationship because there were already enough reasons to discourage such an unequal marriage. It is possible that Henry Percy carried a torch for Anne throughout his life. He certainly did not love the Mary Talbot, high ranking wife that his parents picked out for him.
Once again, I am so appreciative of your tireless research and ability to simplify it so that others can easily understand the huge questions and implications you are presenting. I don't envy anyone in a power position in that time period. The politics and religion changed too often to ever feel completely safe. Any whispers could gain traction and someone could fall out of favor so easily. I am so thankful to be born here and now as a single woman. I would hate being treated as a possession to be manipulated for someone else's gain (or loss).
Beth Janelle Our society has its own worts, too. I just love her storytelling.
Much remains unknown. Unknowable, discreetly hidden or documentary which are lost or burned.
Anne would have made a magnificent Duchess of Northumberland.
Countess of Northumberland.
Then we would probably know next to nothing about her, and no Elizabeth
@anonymous 112 I believe their marriage ended up a sham, yes. But I think it started off real judging by the letters ( would incidentally love if yhe Vatican would release the letters between them that they have )
Hello from Florida! Really enjoy all of your content!!!!
I never knew that Percy was on the jury! Wouldn’t surprise me if that was Cromwell-especially if he was bringing up the contract again to convict Anne.
Cromwell Ultimatum: say she’s guilty or you are going down with her!? The fact that he collapsed, while dramatic, could’ve possibly been his way of showing Anne his distress. What a heart wrenching thing to have to publicly state to someone you’ve truly loved! Ouch! 💔
Hi Claire. I love these videos on viewer's questions. Your research is top notch, & I love the way you explain all the intricate details. Thank you so much. 💖👍✌🙋😊👸👑🏰🎪🎭
Thank you, Claire... Can't wait for part 2! :-)
What happened to Anne’s jewelry especially the pearl necklace with the letter B.
Almonte Paolilli I was taught that Henry melted the gold & silver& remodelled with the stones.
We don't know. It was probably taken apart and recycled, reused by Henry's subsequent wives.
Almonte Paolilli, I don’t know what happened to all her jewelry but the famous pearl necklace with the B was given to her daughter Elizabeth. There’s a painting of a young Elizabeth where she’s wearing the pearl necklace.
What a funny time that was.. if my partner gave me jewellery made from his ex’s necklace I’d be fuming 😂
Marilyn Thomas I think that was Photoshopped. The actual painting has a different necklace and not the B.
OMG I LOVE YOU'RE CHANEL. I'm so happy that i find it!!!! ❤️
Thanks Claire. Have a wonderful evening. ❤️
So many interesting bits I didn't know, thank you! Percy's life was very sad, wasn't it? I feel for him, and never knew he was on the jury. Wasn't he also the one who was sent to arrest Wolsey? Such a spider's web, the Tudor courts were!
Percy's life was very sad, yes. And, yes, he was sent to arrest Wolsey and he had served in Wolsey's household previously. Awful.
Small and deadly.
Another wonderful video
Thanks a lot. It is a treat.
I would enjoy a series based on surviving letters and documents. It would provide another perspective.
It's unfortunate that most of Anne's letters were lost or destroyed.
Gosh wouldn’t that be something x
Thanks for another great video, Claire. Where did you get that tee shirt, I love the color and it looks very comfortable.
Thank you Claire for this video.
Also, love the tee shirt.👕👸
Thank you Claire! Greetings from Illinios,USA...I Absolutely love your website and books. I've been obsessed with everything Anne since I saw the movie Anne of the Thousand Days at age 11... Almost 39 years ago! I've read/ watched everything I can get my hands on concerning Anne, her lifetime and contemporaries. My absolute dream is to visit the UK and actually walk where Anne had been, from Hever, to Hampton to the Tower.... (*Also, Where did you find that T Shirt you are wearing in this video ???) Thank you again for all that you do!
Leslie Finchen I think she sells the T-shirts on her website :)
It is wonderful to go and follow in Anne's footsteps. Hever is beautiful.
My t-shirt is from my own site! My shop can be found at www.theanneboleynfiles.com/products-page/
Leslie you will love Hever
So how u think Anne was innocent , I read every where that it was said she had some sort of affair with other
@@saunaknandi1814 Her charges were completely false, and her trial was an absolute disgrace to the trial-by-jury institution
I can only imagine the life she would have had, hD she not married Henry. But then again we’d not have Elizabeth and all that came with her rule🥰🇬🇧🥰🇬🇧🥰🇬🇧 also just ordered your this day in Tudor history book for myself, can wait to crack that baby open💓💓💓💓💓💓
Henry Percy....it sounds like this entire affair took its toll on him. Loved the long detailed video. Thank you so much!
This topic is so intriguing to me! The matter of “what if?” really highlights itself in this matter, as it sort of builds up Anne’s tragedy further, reinforcing her horrid fate. I always wonder what Anne’s reaction to her relationship being broke down with Percy was. Sure we can imply, but since Anne was generally headstrong yet dutiful in some aspects, it is interesting to know what her thoughts on the matter were.
Im from the States but British history has always been so fascinating to me. So much drama and scandal. I just read Katherine of Aragons biography. It was really well done.
Charlotte,do historical research n archaeology so if ever you want to discuss things,let me know.would enjoy chatting with you.
I always enjoy watching you talking about Anne Boleyn. Thank you for answering the question about her involvement with other men. I find myself sad for all the women involved with Henry The 8th. He once loved them then betrayed them only because he could and was all powerful. How sad to have someone you may not even been in love with want you and take you only because he was king and to deny the king was instant death. The only woman smart enough to give him what he wanted was Anne of Cleves 😢💞
You are a delight on this myth debunking. I have wondered if any of the “femme inconnue” portraits of the ladies of the court of Francis I snd Queen Claude could be Anne.
Thank you.
Thank you Claire 🙏
Fasinating!
Interesting for sure!
The marriage negotiations between Anne Boleyn and James Butler fell apart simply because Anne’s father and james father couldn’t agree on marriage terms, both wanted the earldom of ormond and Henry Percy was betrothed to someone else lady Mary talbot daughter of the earl of Shrewsbury and had been since he was a child, and as Henry Percy was important he couldn’t marry without the kings permission.
We don't really know why they fizzled out, as they just stopped being discussed in the surviving primary sources that we have.
I think Percy was a version of Prince Harry and Anne Boleyn was his version of Meghan Markle. Percy knew Anne was not appropriate as a wife, but he was obsessed. For Anne, Percy was quite step up. I do think Henry was sexually interested in Anne at this time. The relationship between Anne and Percy may have been consummated and met the criteria of a pre-contact. Was Percy asked if he ever had sex with Anne as opposed to whether there was a pre-contract? Percy did say he was honor-bound to marry Anne. I find it hard to believe that strong-minded Anne regarded weak Percy as the love of her life. I doubt that Anne loved Henry, but she would have been an idiot to pass up a crown. The English mistook "courtly love" affectations for adultery. Anne knew she had enemies and would not have risked her position for an affair.
I wonder how Percy truly felt about Henry in his private thoughts? I think Percy's dreams of the future were embodied in Anne, a woman he esteemed enough to want her to be the mother of his children. I don't think it was lost on him that had the fates aligned differently, Anne would have been safe on one of his estates and he would have had a happy marriage instead of having to condemn her to death. I feel sorry for his wife, but I can see how Percy would have been deeply frustrated with how things shook out. He was told he couldn't marry Anne because her status was too low, yet she was good enough for a king? Poor Lady Mary Talbot, whose only crime was that she was not Anne. She never stood a chance.
And what does the King do with this magnificent woman Percy had loved? He tossed her out like week old garbage when his whims changed. It was all so pointless in the end, as far as Percy was concerned.
All of that suffering and longing might have been tolerable to Percy if it had been worth it for Anne. He clearly continued to defend her honor and support her, even when it wasn't advantageous for him to do so. When it all ended in disaster, Percy must have felt so much repressed rage watching the King, a man he could never show anger towards, annihilate the woman and marriage that Percy had dreamed of. Percy was another casualty of the King's selfish tyranny.
it seems parents where very little conserned with their childrens happiness in marriage only with status and whealth. After all Anne was niece to the powerful duk e of Norfolk and her father was an important courtier and hardly poor.
For the upper classes and upwardly mobile middle classes, very few matches were for love....for most of history.
All noble children would have expected a marriage match to be arranged for them, that is what happened. However, it was unusual for a marriage match to be forced, the bride and groom would have met and if they really hated each other then it was rare for them to be forced to marry. Anne would have been very disappointed if her father hadn't tried to negotiate a marriage for her.
I think it was utterly callous of her father, Earl of Wiltshire, to continue serving King Henry VIII after the execution of his only son and heir and his daughter, Anne. Perhaps he had no choice; I only know the politics of that era were brutal.
@@kathleenmckenzie6261 it would be better if he somehow mange to kill Henry
Henry being the man that he is bullied Percy into an unhappy marriage, but isn’t funny that Henry Percy died a few days after Anne was beheaded
Why didnt you mention Sir Thomas Wyatt?
My heart breaks for Percy and Anne. I think they would have had a genuinely happy marriage, and yet because of the King - it was ruined.
Queen Anne's fate wad so sad. Ty, Claire.
I think Anne would have gone nuts stuck away in a moldy castle on the back end of Ireland.... ;)
Ironic that Anne did give Henry the heir who would go on to outshine him as a ruler. I hope she bitchslapped him in afterlife.
Not good enough for Percy, but fine enough to be Queen! Sigh, men.
Your detailed research is so good. I always wondered why more mariages were not negotiated for Anne, her mother being a Howard and her Butler grandmother being filthy rich, Anne's parents should have been working on finding her a good match way earlier. What were they waiting for? A King? lol Anne's mother is a grey zone for me, she doesn't seem involved in her daughter's life, and it looks like she had her last child at 25, all strange to me.
I am wondering if it could be that Anne wasn't in love with the king but he wanted her and how did you say no to him and he had even broken up her love for Percy. Could she have thought that if she told the king that she would only be with his if he married her because she wouldn't be his mistress, that by saying that he would give up on her because normally that was an impossibility and he would stop his unwanted attention, but she had no way of knowing he would move heaven and earth to get her, so she ended up being married to him. I think there are lots of women who has been in such a situation where a man won't take a no for an answer and think the girl can be bought or persuaded and you have to come up with a good idea to get rid of them. And maybe she thought she found the perfect idea. Well it's just a thought. I don't know what he looked like when she met him only that he didn't look like someone in many of his paintings that I would fall for even if I could become queen:) To me she seemed like a woman who could fall in love in a time when women had no choice in marriage and she was a fighter.
At this time, Henry was still fit and attractive. His power probably made him even more appealing. Justly, she reminded him that no other man would approach her after the king expressed his interest in her. As a result, Anne did have an opportunity to marry and have children. Growing older while she waited for Henry to obtain his freedom, Anne had many reasons to feel bitter.
How dangerous it was to be in the circle of view of Anne Boleyn....I feel sorry for the beheaded men , who probably lost their lives completely innocently...
I think the fact that neither Anne nor the men accused had their heads on spikes is very telling. While Catherine Howard didn't have her head put on her spike the men accused with her did.
What was the normal standard of behaviour in Tudor times? I.e. was it ok to be promiscuous for men and women? I ask because it would be good to know if people like Anne were virtuous by our standards or theirs.
A woman was meant to keep hold of her virginity until she was married, as was a man really but there were double standards as far as men were concerned. It was perfectly normal, however, for a king to take a mistress when his queen was pregnant.
@@anneboleynfiles I know in the French court, a mistress was actually an official title.
@@51Saffron It was in English court too.
Did Anne even meet James Bulter? Good video, of course.
She would have at least seen him as he was also at court.
@@anneboleynfiles There isn't much record of what James thought of Anne is there? It's a little surprising that he seems not to have been much of a factor in negotiations given that she was quite a catch. But he seems to have stood aside, like a kid letting his parents choose a prep school for him.
@@mariahunter9882 We don't know what either of them thought, but they would have expected their marriage to be arranged by their families anyway, it was just the way things were done.
Wow!
TY
What did you think of The Tudors series?
I enjoyed it as entertainment and because it brought the story and period to life, but I did get annoyed with its inaccuracies and its depictions of some personalities.
In the trial, it said things like "Anne was with Henry Norris on such and such date at such and such time," but it was later proven she wasn't even in the places at the dates or at the times they said? Also, when was she supposed to have slept with all these men with her maids and ladies of waiting sleeping in the same room and following her around all day? I call BS on all of it. She was innocent of all of those ridiculous charges! Henry wanted rid of her because she couldn't give him a son.
William butler Yeats was a decendant of those butlers
If the precontract existed, imagine the repercussions for Percy and Anne if Percy had admitted to it - If Percy was still in love with Anne, maybe he preferred to damn his soul to protect her.
I'm related to her
Henry had a Traumatic Brain Injury which
effected his personality.....also Henry had a Chronic Ulcer on his Leg causing Chronic Pain & a foul odour......best to search the truth......
What I would do to come to your house and see that room!! All the Tudor stuff you have!! I’d be in Tudor heaven!
Hello, I'm a new fan. I'm requesting that you go frame by frame of The Tudors to either agree or disagree each episode. I would find that so amazing! I know most movies are for entertainment purposes only, I would just love for you to verify, fact check, the movie. 👍💁 I have great respect for you 🌹
I believe she was in complete shock and when she was brought up on those bogus charges, and losing her baby, she might have went a little crazy. I’m sure she was overwhelmed with pain and humiliated beyond belief of the ridiculous accusations, she may have wanted or welcomed her death! It would take a Evil Bustard to put a women he So Called “LOVED” to the pain she endured! But then again KARMA is a bitch, and is not to be reckoned with, should have settled for his Mistress instead of being ambitious with Greed!
Claire, roughly how old was Anne during her time in French Court?
From the age of about 11-13 to 18-20.
I Think she maybe was involved with Smeaton!. To get a son.
No evidence.
I can understand your desire to be polite, but at least to this American, the question is not "dalliance" or "connection" or "pre-contract" or "linked" or "involved" etc. These terms could easily be understood to be simply an innocent flirtation or idealized romance.
The question is, Was she actually having sex with any of these various men? Was she ever at risk of getting pregnant from any of these other men? The question is linked to Hamlet's demand to Ophelia: "Get thee to a nunnery!" (Get an abortion!) When Ophelia can not stand the rejection and kills her mad self by drowning, the situation is indeed tragic. Was Anne involved in any such things? Was Henry VIII aware such things at the time he married her?
Its also linked to the syphilis epidemic which was running rampant in Europe at the time. Were such fears regarding such a liason vis-a-vis Anne Bolyen grounded in reality?
By dodging the direct question, you keep at arms length a clear understanding of exactly what was going on. If its impossible to know, that is fine. But ultimately this unchaste behavior is what she is charged with, tried for, convicted of, and ultimately duly executed regarding. Is there ANY unchastity here? Were the charges true, even in part? Or was it ALL a lie? It seems like you say yes, and then no, and then yes, and then no...
Basically, at the time she first had sex with Henry VIII, was she an actual virgin? My guess is that she was not. But you are vastly more aware of the sources than I am. What do you think, specifically?
No she wasn't. Alison Weir says in her book that she had been a tart while in France and was not a virgin when she came to marry Henry and he was angry and suspicious of her and thats why the marriage went sour so fast. But this is not true. She saw by the example of her sister Mary what not to do and by the performance of Henry Vllls sister in France when as a new widow she married Brandon. Weir also said that King Francis has commented that Anne had always been a strumpet, but thats not true either. He cultivated her friendship and supported her marriage to Henry and had nothing but good things to sat about her. The pious French queen Claude did not allow her ladies to attend court very often and when they did they were well supervised, so not free to run off and have affairs. Later Lord Percy swore on the sacrament that he and Anne were never betrothed - he was already formally betrothed to the other gal - and the marriage was an unhappy one and produced no children. When his wife tried to get an annulment based on Percy and Anne's supposed pre-contract, she was unable to because there was no proof they ever were pre-contracted. This so called relationship has been vastly overplayed, and I read that Anne had many admirers but kept them all at a distance, favoring neither one or another. And she ended up with the big prize......a booby prize as it turned out.
I wonder what he died from? Guilt and a broken heart?
I read it was tuberculosis - I think in a David Starkey but I've read so many books I don't remember for sure.
Another great video!
@@reinettestreasures6198 Henry VIII? They do not know but any think diabetes. Everyone has their theory though.
He was overweight so many bad things come from that.
Truly odd to me, Claire, that you are so regretful that Anne didn't marry Butler & sail off into Ireland & obscurity. If she had, we'd of course have records of her existence - - - birth or baptism, service at various courts, marriage - - - but we'd really know nothing of her & care even less. None of the thrilling historical drama would have occurred & England would have lost the greatest monarch it ever had, Henry & Anne's daughter, Elizabeth I. And YOU would have no Anne Boleyn merchandise to sell, tours to lead, or site to conduct! Of course you say, but I love Anne & sympathize with her & wish her well & safely out of it all. We all do! But just remember everybody, without the history we deplore, Anne would be just a footnote & none of us would care about her at all. As we care not at all about hundreds of others who come & go, leaving little footnotes as their only trace. No gain (for all of us, Anne included) comes without price. Anne played a very high stakes game, & for a time it looked like she had lost. Her daughter was a gambler, too, but she caught a few very lucky breaks - - - the biggest of which was a sister who loved her - - - & won the most glittering jackpot of them all. 👑
I admire Anne and, as you know, I'm rather addicted to her story with having researched it full-time since 2009, BUT for her personally she would have had a better chance of survival being in Ireland and running a household as a countess. I'm not sure how Anne would feel, whether she'd think it was all worth it, hard to know. She made a huge impact and she did so much good, but it cost her dearly.
@@anneboleynfiles
I guess we're all in the same boat, sailing the seas of what might have been! 👑
Anne Boleyn Was A Very Beautiful Lady! She Deserved Better Then That Piece Of Garbage Henry The VIII
Henry had a Traumatic Brain Injury while Jousting which effected his personality.....also Henry had a Chronic Ulcer on his Leg causing Chronic Pain & a foul odour......best to search the truth......the necessity of a Legitimate male heir drove him.
im so early lol 2nd comment
First! Xxx
my ambition too!! :)
Very long winded ,too much time spent on irrelevant 😴 facts.