I think the wildest part about the lying debacle is that it started with one player making a callout post on twitter towards another player. It wasn't someone opening a discussion, it was someone posting a clip with someone elses name in an attempt to shame their actions and affect their tournaments in the future. I think that's insane behavior, and I don't see how any format that could have standings be affected by twitter drama is taken that seriously.
If it had happened during the tournament he would have been in trouble for poor sportsmanship. I would give serous though to not inviting him to the next one.
@@AngelusNielson But it's not bad sportsmanship. The guy who got upset essentially got upset because one player held hidden information from the rest, which was absolutely in that player's rights. The upset person's argument can't be "I would have played differently if I had known your hidden information" because he had no right to that information. You're under no obligation to telegraph what you're going to do on your turn. You're under no obligation to hold to what you said you were going to do during previous turns. If you're gonna politick be explicit about the deals you want to make. "I will take care of this if no one tries to win for a turn cycle". Don't just take "I can't win next turn" at face value.
Before talking about spoilers for a new set it might be a good idea to brush up on the already spoiled cards. T-45 isn't a banger but when your commander gives u energy for casting an artifact it can play a role, same with not knowing what the rad counters were even though they showed up in video in the edit
Lord of the rings = a lot of money, best selling set Dr who = one of the worst selling sets and a dividing point for most players Wizards please take a hint already! If you want universe beyond then use IPs that fit with your game for gods sake!
Kinda sad tbh, doctor who precons Was easily the best product of the year. Great designs, great reprints no need to gamble on packs since buying the precons gives you every card
Lying and bluffing and manipulating and doing fake-outs like LSV's legendary move, as long as it's within the rules is 100% fine for tournaments. But my god there's nothing worse than the people angle-shooting at casual FNM.
Agreed, that's why all LGS's I went to have flat price support for showing up. (I live in north europe). No extra prizes for doing well, as it should be in a casual setting.
@@TheOnionKnight1 I can see where you're coming from, but I view it in a similar lens as people bluffing in poker. If I start counting my chips to pretend I'm going all in, and then you suddenly fold - that's on you for reading into it, you can play to the table and not to my body language. I feel the same way about the reach for a token as if he had nothing - the other player could've played around Settle and 4 open mana - but they tried to play to the LSV's body language instead, and got wrecked for it.
If you find that someone has 59 cards in their deck, you should definitely call a judge and I'm telling you this as a former judge. There's always the possibility that the missing card is hidden somewhere, so that it can be slipped into hand at right moment, and only by calling a judge will patterns of this kind of behavior be discovered... not that WotC cares anymore, but the judges do.
I finally got the willpower to beat FO4 a while ago and I never spoke to him, only annoyance lies down that path. Is a bit of a wasted slow considering how many iconic characters didn't get a card IMO.
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A bluff is when you take a risk using in-game mechanics to try and convince your opponent to think the hidden information they don't have is something that it isn't. i.e, holding a card in hand and 2 blue mana up every round is a bluff (if you don't have the counterspell). Proclaiming you have the counterspell is not a bluff. A bluff relies on your opponent misinterpreting the facts. It's an ACTION that takes place solely with in-game mechanics. No communication whatsoever. If you need to say something to "bluff", you didn't bluff, you're just stupid and have no idea what you're doing. Here's a pointed example, because MtG players tend to be pretty low on brain cells. If I'm attacking you with a single 2/2 while you have a 4/5, you decide to block precisely by whether you think I'm bluffing the kill on your big creature. That's a bluff. Nobody said a damn thing. The game state made all of these details apparent.
@@MakeVarahHappen Can I interest you in a game of Poker? Or Bridge? Or Pokemon? Or YuGiOh? Or literally any card game with hidden information and therefore bluffing?
Well actually there is a lot of etiquette in poker tournaments or high end tables. The exact same thing happened to Phil Helmutt in a tournament when some guy said he didn't have the cards, after revealing he had them. Helmutt went storming and basically every comments was with him. It's not offiacially in the rules but it's a breach of etiquette and it's very very frowned upon and can get you kicked out of the table at any casino. So to me cEDH being a "new" game would really profit to get those kinds of etiquette rules. Tho as is stands rn, i would totaly lie to you to win since there's nothing stopping me
from my knowledge of cedh, unlike other competitive formats, the fact that there are multiple people means there IS going to be some amount of social strategy. Obviously you are always aiming for a personal win (ie. you're not on a team), but staying in your own lane is not necessarily the best strategy, and I think that social aspect of cedh makes the lying situation in some ways different than just lying/rules lawyering in a 1v1 format, as in those formats you can just ignore the opponent 99 times out of 100. That being said... I think lying in an attempt to get a win is perfectly legal and fine to do. The goal of cedh is to win, and if lying/misinforming an opponent helps you towards that goal, so be it. I see it as the same thing as passing priority on a spell that should be countered when you have a counterspell in hand, even saying "i don't have anything for that" even if you do, in order to hold onto that spell to protect your own win. Sure, you lied, but it was in order to get the win, which is the end goal. If people get upset that you lied, they are also fully free and valid to be so, thus is the power of free speech. Long story short i think lying in part of the game, and in a competitive tournament, you've gotta take what your opponents say with a grain of salt.
Preston Garvey is from Fallout 4. He's one of the first NPCs you encounter, and he's the quest-giver for the Minutemen faction - who are all about building and building up settlements. This showcases a gameplay feature - settlement construction, where the main PC organizes entire communities, setting up fields of crops, water purifiers, vendors, and designing their homes - a touch of The Sims in the post apocalypse I guess. (and doing this does get you raw resources that are useful; e.g. Purified Water is a basic health item, and worth money, so producing X every Y time period allows you to heal up between combats and get extra money just for visiting your settlements). So 100% flavour win for him to be all about building up settlements and then winning the game through the resources generated by these seemingly humble settlements of just a handful of random people - that's how Minutemen playthroughs end, with the common people united to take control of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts from initially more powerful factions. He's also memetically annoying, because the quests he gives are procedurally generated so it gets a little repetitive... oh look, a repetitive ability that makes settlements. :D
Here's what Radiation/Rad Counters do for anyone watching and curious. Source is from the MTG wiki Radiation means that at the beginning of the precombat main phase, a player must mill a card for each rad counter they have. For each nonland card milled this way they lose 1 life and remove a rad counter. A rad counter is a counter that, unlike most other counters, is placed on players rather than objects.
For the CEDH tournament, do we even know if he was lying? Like at the last Commander Night event at my LGS we all knew who was winning, next player had an infinite combo set up to win, I was just able to counter his commander the previous turn to stop it (I impulse drew the pyroblast with Prosper during the previous turn end step and he didn't have the colors to recast or the mana to pay tax) and I was able to impulse draw probably the one card in my deck that let me win on that turn. I'm not going to win can turn into I will win right now with the right top deck
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A lie is when you say something that's just not true. A bluff is where you make a correct play for a hand you don't have. If we're playing texas hold'em, lets say the flop is 9 10 Q, I've got 2 4 in the hole, and I give a big raise, at that point I'm bluffing the inside straight. My actions are scaring people into reacting to a hand of cards that I literally don't have. I'm not telling them anything. They're interpreting the information everyone has incorrectly. However, if I'm instead simply calling every round while loudly proclaiming to have the inside straight, that's not a bluff, it's just a lie. Well, it's also definitely a violation of the rules of the game at any respectable establishment, and most home games as well, but that's beside the point. Bluffs are risks taken for the chance at a better outcome than would otherwise occur, all done with in-game mechanics. Lies are attempts to use out-of-game functions to get an unfair advantage in-game at no risk. It's cheating. It's not that different from pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent to claim a "victory". You couldn't win at the game so you tried to feel like you're not a loser by getting outside help.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 unlike poker they allow politicking isn't it? so unless you are going to make specific rule that is going to punish "lies" then it is a fair game.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If an opponent tells you "I'm going to win Next turn" and you lose because you player according to a piece of information disclosed by a person whose only purpose is to see you lose, you have only yourself to blame 😂.
@@KPX01 "It's not explicitly stated that this isn't ok, therefore it's ok" has never at any point been a valid argument, for any game, ever. A rather heavy-handed example, there's no rule that says you're not allowed to physically harm opposing players to get your way, therefore by the exact logic you're using it's fair to do so.
On the lying: I agree with some of seths points, everything maybe within the rules but being scummy makes me view magic players/card game players as terrible people and i am glad i have a consistent friend group otherwise i would not play magic. Half the crew saying nothing was scummy at all with what happened is really disheartening. Card games just bring out the worst in people
I think Assassin's Creed will be the big wake up call for UB. Assassin's Creed is 10 years past its prime, isn't a pop-culture defining franchise like LotR and Marvel, and isn't a niche franchise with a passionate fanbase like Doctor Who and Warhammer. Add to the fact that it's being sold in the terrible epilogue boosters that we already know sell terribly, I think that AC may sell even worse than Aftermath. The only way it sells is if they purposefuly print some crazy busted modern staple on the level of The One Ring or Orcish Bowmasters.
43:26 I dunno. Good sportsmanship is pretty important in all other professional sports. Things that aren’t against the rules specifically are still looked down on or can even result in penalties and fines. Isn’t being to mean in football a thing? I’m not saying it has to go that far but just because you can’t doesn’t mean you should.
It really depends though. What is our isn't good sportsmanship depends a lot in the game. Games like Coup, BS, Among Us and Secret Hitler all have lying as core mechanics so it would be hard to argue that it universally must be bad sportsmanship. In addition, in the magic tournament rules, there is a section dedicated to the rules around player communication (4.1). In that section, there is a rule stating you may not misrepresent free, derived or status information (which make up all public information) incorrectly. There is also a rule saying that players must answer all questions that a judge asks them completely and honestly regardless of the type of information. There is no rule restricting communication about private information to your opponent. Given that, I find it hard to believe that the absence is an accident or unintentional loophole. If they wanted to make lying to your opponent in general against the rules they would have done so in that section.
@@seandun7083 those games are very different because lying is literally the core mechanic that makes those games work. Again, just because something isn’t against the rules doesn’t mean it isn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s a difference between being sneaky and tricky and lying. It’s easy to just say nothing 🤷♀️
Ikr what are they even talking about. 😂 It's a competition and there's money on the line. It's not kitchen EDH where "everybody needs to have fun". I don't know how you can enter a tournament and then expect your opponents to always be truthful. The only thing you need to expect is that they follow the rules of the tournament. "Is it worth it winning a tournament in exchange of having a bad boy reputation?" Are we in elementary school? What's happening, are edh players ok? 😂 Sounds like they've been coddled too long and forgot what the real world is like.
@hammernnaila7031 Depends what you lie about. You are obligated to maintain a clear board state and you can't lie about known information. I don't know what other card games you're talking about but I'd be suprised if you weren't allowed to bluff. That's a major part of even games like Uno, you constantly bluff about what you have and don't have in hand. It's about mind games.
@@vulcanh254 The specific statement of 'I cannot kill you' would be grounds for a game loss in almost every major TCG. Yu-Gi-Oh, F&B, any card game that has interaction on your opponents turn lying is exactly against the rules except in Magic for some reason. Rules Lawyering is also grounds for a warning.
@@hammernnaila7031 So to be clear I don't know the literal context of the lie in question. I'm just going off by what Seth, Richard and Crim are saying. They gave multiple examples from telling your opponent that "you're not going to wrath next turn", "don't worry I don't have a counterspell", to pretending you don't have Settle the Wreckage in hand. Those are obviously bluffs. So that makes the topic confusing because now we're saying simple bluffs like that are too mean and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, which obviously doesn't make any sense. So the full context would've been helpful to have. If you say "don't worry I can't combo next turn" and then you combo next turn, that's ok. BUT if you pretend that your enchantment in play isn't going to make you win on your next upkeep when it will, then that's misrepresenting the board state and lying about known information. I'm confused as to why people are mixing both of those things as if they're the same thing though.
My guess is that the rationale for Draft and Set Boosters going away was exaggerated and the bigger reason was simplifying the line up so they could introduce Beyond and Aftermath-style Boosters. Which kind of makes it funnier Aftermath flopped.
@JonReid01 I would tend to agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that if they didn't simplify it and they added more, it would be even more complicated.
What if it wasnt even a lie? What if the player couldnt win on their turn with what they had in hand, but then topdecked that one card they needed to go off on their next draw step? Does that change it at all?
Hey gang! to the topic question: no i dont think lying is against the rules nor is it even really in bad sportsmanship of the game. Crim made a good point that we often are doing everything in our power to fake out the opponent. We politic in EDH, which is what this sounds like they did, we leave mana open to bluff the counter or protection spell when really we have nothing. I even will, to Crims point, on Arena if i really want the oppenent to swing on my 'open board' so i can Settle the Wreckage their entire team and punish their greedy 26 point attack when they could've killed me me with one creature by sending them the "Good Game" to fake out that i'm defenseless. If players are not wary of subterfuge in a game that is resource intensive, complex in timing and prone to disruptive plays like counterpulls and hand attack, then they have their own player skill to complain about. its exactly why we teach newer players to cast their spells in the 2nd Mainphase, so we can bluff in the attack or have reacts up. thats basic playership. Also ESPECIALLY in Commander, game states change at every second. What may have been a board state I have no interest in interacting with mmay turn into a prime need for a board wipe in the single once around the table. Thye may had no intention of winning that turn but drew the nut card, or they foudn themselves in a board state that needed them to win now or they were going to throw the game. and in a CEDH tournament you cant expect someone to throw a match because of good manners or poltiics. PS Im the one that Settled Seth 3 times in a single match in Viewer battles a few years ago, and I let Seth walk into those each time because i NEEDED him to, I had a slow hand i needed time to get set up.
I think with the CEDH thing, the guy who "Lied" (It's a harsh term though, isn't it?) was asked if he was going to win on his turn and said no, which caused the other player to become an unwilling "kingmaker," which is a big stigma in the CEDH community because a lot of CEDH players left the Commander community because they didn't like the political aspects of the games. So instead of being accused of being a kingmaker, he accuses the other player of being a liar. That's what I'm reading from the situation, anyway. Preston Garvey is great and I think his card is great too. The fallout set seems to be crafted with lots of love so far.
Personally I don't think CEDH players should be politicking at all, considering how disadvantageous it is. The only communication I'd want in a CEDH game, especially if it's a paid event, is only when players announce their plays or have responses. If players wanna politic, they should just play normal Commander.
@@TastySnackies If politics are helping you to win the game, then you're being at your most competitive when you are the successful politician. You cannot purge the multiplayer effect from the multiplayer game.
Marvel’s Universes Beyond is going to be interesting to watch. The comics, movies, and shows are not anywhere near where they were for popularity even just 2-3 years ago. I worry that they may have waited too long to get the full impact.
Two of the biggest issues that Hasbro faced last year is their media division completely falling apart during the actor and screenwriter strikes (It plagued the whole industry) leading to them selling the studio arm of that division, and their inability to sell toys (Also plaguing the industry). This is also observed with Mattel if you remove the obvious bump they got from the Barbie Movie. Realistically, WotC and Digital is the only division they can lean into because of the changing dynamics. Now if Hasbro/WoTC lean too far into withdrawing from the present and future MTG community by making several more UB sets and dries the ichor wellspring of potential IP, they will fall into the same trap that Disney now sees itself in; lackluster product with no original material to draw from and forced into the downward spiral of finding the newest and greatest IP. They will just be doing this by "renting" IP instead of making mutli-billion dollar acquisitions; same trajectory and result. If Hasbro needs to do this to get them out of their financial rut, then I am ok with this. I rather see MTG sets getting produced then having the game die to an bankruptcy. That being said, I would love to see a Zelda UB set. Just make that work Nintendo and WotC.
It's a shame the reserve list is going to stop them from making the Infinity Stones altered art/named Moxes. Now THAT would make it competitive with the LOTR set.
If they really wanted to, they could. They don't even have to break the RL to do it. People put way too much faith in that RL. As soon as they can milk every last drop from Magic and just kill it off and sell it, they will reprint the RL. Until then, it's not really hard for them to make exact copies with different names.
In general, I feel like lying about the rules, about public information, or to a tournament official is bad, but for the most part lying to your opponent about private information is okay. That being said, you generally wait to tone it down in a more casual setting in the same way that I might let my opponent know about niche rules interactions (you might want to crack your fetch before pithing needle resolves, etc) before they happen in a casual setting or in the same way I might let them not miss triggers or take back lesser misplays. If you are a player in a tournament, just remember that your opponent isn't required to tell you the truth, so take what they say with a grain of salt. "I don't have an answer" might mean "I don't see that as a threat to me". Talk is cheap.
lying, which i consider falling under "mindgames" is not only absolutely fine in competitive games, it is to be expected. it's just another tool to enhance your chances of winning which is the singular goal in a competitive environment.
The reason that in sports you get consequences for challenging a call and being wrong is so that coaches do not use every challenge as alternate timeouts to rest their players and drag out a game (If you ever watched college basketball, the last few minutes of a game can take 30+ minutes due to timeouts) . In hockey, they made it a penalty to shoot the puck out of play excluding deflections because when the players were tired, they would just keep lobbing the puck out of play for a stoppage in play.
Seth: is this a step in that direction? Yes, it is definitely *a* step in that direction. It is not *all of* the steps in that direction. It's a sliding scale with all Magic IP on one end and all UB IP on the other. I don't think we'll ever be completely on one end of the scale again but I expect wizards to adjust that slider as they feel necessary. Lying in cedh is exactly the same as lying in commander. It's legal, you can do it, and nothing is stopping you from using it to win a game. The reason you don't do it is because doing it once means you now have an untrustworthy reputation that follows you into future games and makes deal making more difficult for you. Is one victory worth making all politics more difficult or down right impossible in your future games?
6:50 It’s an interesting point that they would need fans of the UB franchises working on them to make it work but it’s increasingly apparent with the worsening direction of the story and set concepts lately that there aren’t many fans of the Magic franchise working on their own products
For the universes beyond, I'm almost certain that we will have revisits to old universes beyond like richard mentioned, which will be interesting to see.
Gonna put this out there that Brandon Sanderson, a prolific author, is a HUGE MTG fan, and has a whole universe of potential characters. And his fans are zealots for nerd stuff. Theres even a world where a bunch of Gods exist that all are based on different colors. Would be so easy and cool.
I know Final Fantasy isn’t exactly Lotr but I feel like it’s a fairly deep well with pretty diehard fans but not an exact 1/1 ring type of thing that could be used given 16+ games don’t really intertwine but have plenty of continued references so there’s plenty you could serialize but nothing 2million dollars worthy. But I agree you can only force so much till you’re at the jiffy lube secret lairs. I have a buddy I play with whose reputation is the guy who goes back on a deal immediately so don’t bother making one. Either make them have it or get bluffed it’s gonna happen and scummy or not the win is the win when it matters.
As someone who has recently got more heavily into going to CEDH tournaments, one of the big draws of CEDH is not having to deal with the very nebulous "social contract" of casual edh. Getting upset about a player "lying" (i.e. feeding misinformation) is asinine and someone at a tourney should be more savvy about things like that.
54:34 the rad counter token was one of the first spoilers from PIP, we've known what it does all along (granted a lot of people didn't notice it, tokens don't get much attention)
Trigun or any classic 90s anime in mtg would actually make me wanna consider buying it. Otherwise im not buying secret lairs and still not buying any sealed besides an occasional precon.
Bluffing, and the like is fine to me. You have to be able to know when someone is bluffing or you lose. That said, any verbalization is a step too far. It's unsportsmanlike and scummy. People always like to go "MtG pLaYeRs LeArNiNg ThE gAmE hAs HiDdEn InFoRmAtIoN! QQ more nerds!" And then try to compare MTG to Poker or something, but the reality is no one would be happy at a poker table of someone openly stated "I can't win this hand" and then revealed a Royal Flush. It would be seen as giga scummy. The real point is bluffing and body language misleads are fine, but the rules should absolutely not allow blatant lying in any event where there's prizing on the line.
There's more games than poker that allow lying. BS, Coup, Among Us, Secret Hitler and plenty of others do. I would argue that whether or not it's okay entirely depends on both the playgroup and the game. It's fine for a game to make a decision either way, and for better or worse, magic has decided that lying to an opponent about private information is okay. (Misrepresenting public information and lying to tournament officials are still against the rules). In a competitive tournament you can't really have the expectations for the same social situation you would have at a table with friends for the same reason I wouldn't warn my opponent about trying to bolt my tarmogoyf in a tournament but I might at fnm.
@@seandun7083 Yeah, I get what you're saying. I just feel like MTG is a worse game if we are at the point where explicit verbal information is fine. To me there's a huge difference between LSV fiddling a token and verbally directing his opponent "I'm going to make a vampire when you attack". In your Goyf example, it would be tantamount to, instead of saying nothing, telling your opponent "Oh my Goyf will die to a bolt." Obviously you shouldn't assume an opponent is giving you direct verbal advice that damages them, but they also shouldn't do it. Fiddle with your cards, reach for tokens, pen trick it up. For me, and I do want to express this is solely my feeling and not some call to action, I don't like it and I don't think express verbal lies and misdirection are a good look.
As I understand it, forgoing the social game is a cornerstone of CEDH. For example, it's very common for the player who falls behind to be ganged up on and taken out of the game.
I was playing a game of five player commander with my friends, and one player was playing a deck where he steals everything from other players and uses them against us. I had just had my commander stolen and I couldn't resummon the commander. I couldn't kill it either. I decided to swing everything at my other friend who was wide open so i could get some lifegain and card draw with my other creatures. That friend then told me before I was finished declairing attackers that he had a board wipe in his hand and would use it next turn if i let him live. He was the very next person to go, so this sounded like a good deal to me. Everyones things, including his, that were stolen would be put back in the grave. I shook his hand on it and told him that it would be us in the end to battle it out, and we formed an alliance. I played my aura shards and passed turn. The next turn that ally of mine played a spell to steal my aura shards and then played a bunch of creatures to kill all my enchantments, then passed turn. That next players turn he stole the aura shards and that other guys commander and killed him. He then went on to play creatures and destroy all enchantments and artifacts on the board while keeping me alive with one health. Destroying or stealing every single thing i played. It was awful, and i felt so betrayed, but it was perfectly legal to screw me over, and he paid the consequences for that play.
And in doing so, he completely destroyed any future equity he had with you, assuring you'd never trust him in the game again. Short term gain, long term loss.
That's a cool story of friendship and betrayal but I'm trying to understand how it relates to a tournament setting. Why should I care if you never trust me again? I just crushed you in a tournament and got my prize. I don't care if you don't trust me anymore because you're not supposed to trust your opponent anyway. Again, in a tournament. That's not supposed to be a thing to begin with. Your story is about a casual game with friends so it's different. It seems obvious to me that you should forget everything you think you know about EDH the moment you enter a tournament. 😅
Had an idea for the perfect IP for universes beyond: Dark Tower. It's literally about crossing different planes of reality, enough story and characters to build a full set
I do not untap with my hand; he who untaps with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I untap with my eye. I do not draw for turn with my hand; he who draws for turn with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I draw for turn with my mind. I do not swing for lethal with my creature; he who swings for lethal with his creature has forgotten the face of his father. I swing for lethal with my heart.
In regards to the UB story at the beginning: Disney would have to axe Lorcana before they could license to WotC for a Disney UB. Ravensberger owns the card printing license for Disney and has been doing amazing for them. It is unlikely they would drop them for one small set over the steady hype-based income of Lorcana.
The problem is striking deals and politics are a huge part of commander formats, but you need to take the good with the bad of it. To me, the CEDH player was no more or less "scummy" than two people discussing "Oh hey, player 3 is in a real good position, if you can deal with X on their board I can deal with Y and it takes them down a peg." as that changes the 1v1v1v1 game and turns it into a 2v1v1 (at best), forcing player 3 to defend against two people for a period of time and having a gigantic target painted on their back due to politics, not organic play. As well as putting player 4 in a weird spot. Same with the counterspell example in the video and -oh hey a key piece to your strategy got lost because someone lied about hidden information. Say that player legit didn't see the line until mid play, well after the "I can't win next turn", they didn't lie in that situation, because they gave a truthful answer given the board state at the time and everyone is making a big deal of it due to half the story. Pretty much a lot of this comes down to perspective. In the team up example I gave people will say "Oh getting too far ahead paints a target on your back anyways so it doesn't matter!", but to the player being teamed up against, maybe this is just EVERYTHING they can do for the next five turns and being teamed up against puts them so far behind they can't come back or just locks them out of the game. Does that seem fun for them? No, it seems scummy because someone didn't like they played one or two specific cards or saw the threat where none existed and convinced another player (or more) to go after them for it. Honestly I find it more toxic that people are shaming the guy for it than anything he did, and the only way to solve this is by setting up a number of rules and guidelines that with either be way to restrictive to the social aspect of commander, or be just vague enough that they will likely never be applied fairly.
Aside from the fact that I just genuinely prefer a competitive 1v1 format like Modern, one of the biggest reasons that I stopped playing Commander was the overwhelming political aspect of the game. I remember being in a "casual" tournament one time, several years back where I was playing Golos. Now, my Golos deck didn't have the tricks that the best versions of the decks had. I just ran Golos because at the time, he was one of very few 5C Commanders, and I've long been a fan of 5C decks. My primary Modern deck is 5C for example. I've also got builds for Pioneer that are 5C. Unfortunately, none of that mattered to my three opponents. It was round three of the tourney, and I was in higher brackets. I was attacked by all three opponents relentlessly and didn't even get a chance to actually play the game. When I just conceded before my opponents had a chance to finish me off, one of them got visibly pissed off at me. Now keep in mind that I wasn't able to do anything for at least half a dozen turns, and I was NOT having fun. It was a miserable experience for me, but they made me the bad guy for not wanting to be their punching bag until they beat me. Me conceding, knowing that I was never going to win that game being the target, tool that away from them. Fuck that nonsense.
@@Xoulrath_ Yeah, so from their perspective it was "standard play" by dealing with the perceived threat but from yours three people beat you down and stopped you from playing the game. And I'll admit, I'm new to commander (about 6 months) and I'm perfectly fine with the Rule Zero nature in casual play, or even something on the LGS level. I would even say that in a casual pod the dude is a bit in the wrong for this, but the C in CEDH stands for COMPETITIVE. Take anything people say with a grain of salt and maybe don't let someone get a Silence off uncontested because apparently that's what enabled his win.
@@Zarren_Redacted oh I don't begrudge them for targeting me. It still made my game experience miserable. So I quit when it was very apparent that they were not going to stop targeting me until I was out of the game. So I just conceded. That's the part that pissed me off. Because they all got offended that I didn't just stay there and let them kill me because one of them could have gotten a point for beating me. So it affected their standings. But I wasn't there to help them win. Like I said, I don't do Commander anymore. I wasn't really a fan to begin with, but the political nature of it (regardless of casual or cEDH) just turned me off of it. I'm looking to improve my skill at the game. Playing politics doesn't do that. If I want politics in my game, then I'll set up some Catan.
I would say that no lying is very much not okey in a tournament, but people are either directly or indirectly able to benefit from both lying and cheating in MTG tournaments.
The magic tournament rules prohibit lying to opponents about public information. They also prohibit lying to a tournament official about any information. They do not prohibit lying to an opponent about private information. I would also argue against lying being bad sportsmanship in all games since plenty use it as a core mechanic (Coup, BS, Among Us).
When you were reading down the biggest franchises I had a theory come to mind. I bet MetaZoo wanted a Hail Mary so they googled “biggest franchises”, saw that the top two already had TCGs, then picked the next biggest one (Hello Kitty) and thought it would be as close to popularity as pokemon or Disney 😂
My opinion on basics, Ravnica for Forest (304) Swamp (298), Invasion for Island (236) Onslaught for Mountain (344) Odyssey for Plains (333) Those are the one's I run in all my decks, love them old lands.
My hot takes on UB: LotR and D&D did it right with adding regular draft with the sets vs just the collector boosters. The UB sets could replace the masters/ horizons/ legends sets and allow them into modern.
The only things you can't lie about are state based actions(draw, upkeep, cast, cards in hand), everything else is fair game("i'll counter if you play X", "i have 5 islands in my hand", "i haven't combo'd yet").
their response to the card "Almost Perfect" was just "it dies to doomblade" for 90 seconds ive been hearing that same criticism every time a timmy card gets previewed and im getting kind of tired of it Is Farewell the new doomblade? ...apparently
This wasn't lying. He was bluffing and that's 100% within the rules at a competitive setting. This isn't any different than saying I have a counterspell when you don't just to get in your opponents head
I think the lying debate is real easy. You are not allowed to lie about public information. If you are asked about something on the board like, "I don't recognize the art, what card is that next to your feast and famine?" You can't say stoneforge mystic if its actually bowmaster or whatever. You aren't obliged to explain that Nomads En-Kor will mill your deck and win. I really just dont get it, your playing for marbles, your opponents dont have your best intentions at heart.
Regarding UB Disney - there was a leak a while back that a Disney princess SL was in the works, and I THINK (but I'm not sure) that it was leaked by the same person that leaked some other things that have happened, like Quintorius becoming a PW and a cowboy/western set. So that could be in the pipeline, but it seems somewhat unlikely at this point given Lorcana (these leaks happened before Lorcana was announced IIRC).
I'm pretty amazed nobody is saying this: the question is "do you rely on alliances at a competitive level?". If you do, lying to your allies is going to be a hindrance. If you don't, it's not.
Seth's take on cheating is absolutely wild here. He essentially says, "If my opponent in a tournament was playing proxies, I wouldn't care. If I knew their deck was 59 cards and not 60, I wouldn't care. I would never call out blatant cheating, because it would somehow label me as a scumbag player for the next 20 years." Seth, if your opponent is cheating, how are you the scumbag for calling them out? They are the scumbag for going against the rules to create an unfair advantage.
I think maybe the scumbag part is immediately rushing to a judge to get someone disqualified rather than giving them a chance to fix the issue. Just a simple "hey, I only counted 59 cards in your deck. are you missing a card?" before running off to the judge would give them a chance to fix the issue before it became serious. Maybe they did try to cut a card illegally or maybe it was an honest mistake and one got stuck in the deck box - you have zero information on how it happened. Either way, you're not in the wrong for calling a judge because they're down a card, but how you handle the situation shows what kind of person you are.
@@enoesiw You said it yourself there, you have zero information. Maybe this player always deliberately keeps 1 card in their deck box to play it off as an honest mistake if they get called out on it. In your example, what are you supposed to do about proxies? Ask them if their card is fake, and if they say no, just trust them? Judges are at tournaments to make sure that the game is being played correctly, and if it is not, then it is up to the judge to decide how to fix it and what kind of penalty should be given. They also keep records of game/match losses due to judge calls, so they can see patterns in players. If a player gets a judge called on them once for 59 cards and it turns out the last card is in the box, worst thing that will happen is a game loss. If that same player has the same call multiple times with the same result, now we're talking deliberate cheating with potential bans from competitive play. And isn't that what we want? To make this community better by weeding out the people who would take advantage of others?
Honestly an Avatar Universes Beyond would do well. They already have color divisions and could flavor well in the MTG Universe. Another one that might be a stretch would be Fate series which would allow the entry of iconic heroes and their flavors into MTG. I would love a Gilgamesh or Arturia Pendragon card.
Early Final Fantasy adopters are probably in their late forties/early 50s and they are the ones with the most disposable income. In the end, which Final Fantasy games they lean on will determine how popular this is. There will obviously be Final Fantasy 7 but there are some very cool and iconic characters/items in FF4/FF6/FF9 and FFX.
No idea if T-45 Power Armor is necessarily good, but slap it on a Vigilance creature and that seems at least notable. Curve out with Speaker of the Heavens or Swooping Lookout (not saying they're amazing, just examples) and you have some good poke going around. Better options would be something like Syr Gwyn and general equipment shenanigans. Maybe even stick it in an Arcades-style deck. Options are unlimited when you don't care about power level lol Probably not a staple, but I think it'll be a budget option for specific decks.
Lying in a cEDH event is similar to an angle-shoot in poker. It's legal, but people will know you are willing to do something like that, so you hurt your odds of doing well in the long run.
Hmm...🤔 Could you cover the the split topic one day on the podcast? Wouldn't splitting into 2 separate, longer lasting standards be a good thing? You could have longer lasting card pools while still switching things around a few times a year
The thing with Lord of the Rings wasn't just that it was a recognizable IP, but it also had the One Ring, a highly valuable lottery card, as well as being a very polished and accessible version of a property that is not bled to death yet. Marvel is going to miss the mark harder than Hasbro is expecting. The fact of the matter is, they should capitalize on a hot IP like League of Legends. They could've done that with Baldur's Gate 3, but they missed the mark with that set. Lord of the Rings was lightning in a bottle with crossover appeal that likely pulled in older MtG players. Marvel will not do that. Hasbro fucked up hard picking up that IP over something that had a significant cross-over appeal without market oversaturation.
I thought of an IP that you guys missed, that could easily be featured in the near future. We've already had Godzilla, Dracula, Transformers, Jurassic Park and The Walking Dead... all Universal Studios.They could a Strixhaven style set with the Wizarding world of Harry Potter.
The only to be honest in EDH is being able to politic. It is incentivized through gameplay, not social contract. Once you lie, you lose a viable game action because the other players know you will lie. it's the same reasoning for honoring deals. It's not a matter of social contract, it's a matter of game strategy.
Calling a judge on a suspicious card, deck, or player isn’t wrong, it’s actually right. I understand that you don’t want to be “that guy”, but the rules exist for a reason. In an optimal world every deck and card and play would be run past a judge constantly for the health of the game and format. So yes. DQ the proxy. Every time. That said, if you called a judge on everything all the time in order to squeeze out undeserved game wins, that’s an issue. I like the challenge proposition by Richard. You can’t logistically allow someone to make a judge call every 30 seconds.
Yeah. Judges don't DQ a player for making a small rules mistake, but they do keep a record so if the same player keeps making "small mistakes" over and over, then they can start looking at them a lot closer.
MTG influencers discovering bluffing
Sneaky sir! Are Crim and Richard really that influential? They don't seem to have the pulse of competitive MtG.
The "Social Contract" goes out the window as soon as money is involved
It went out the window as soon as you played "CEDH".
It's called "COMPETITIVE" EDH.
It's basically like 1v1 magic.
I think the wildest part about the lying debacle is that it started with one player making a callout post on twitter towards another player. It wasn't someone opening a discussion, it was someone posting a clip with someone elses name in an attempt to shame their actions and affect their tournaments in the future. I think that's insane behavior, and I don't see how any format that could have standings be affected by twitter drama is taken that seriously.
If it had happened during the tournament he would have been in trouble for poor sportsmanship.
I would give serous though to not inviting him to the next one.
@@AngelusNielsona format that prides itself on politicking into wins constantly gets mad someone didn’t hand them perfect information
@@cdee34 Winning is not the best thing it's the only thing, eh? Bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship, period.
If you're using Twitter for anything other than food pictures, femboy pictures, or hentai pictures, you're doing it wrong
@@AngelusNielson But it's not bad sportsmanship. The guy who got upset essentially got upset because one player held hidden information from the rest, which was absolutely in that player's rights. The upset person's argument can't be "I would have played differently if I had known your hidden information" because he had no right to that information. You're under no obligation to telegraph what you're going to do on your turn. You're under no obligation to hold to what you said you were going to do during previous turns. If you're gonna politick be explicit about the deals you want to make. "I will take care of this if no one tries to win for a turn cycle". Don't just take "I can't win next turn" at face value.
Before talking about spoilers for a new set it might be a good idea to brush up on the already spoiled cards. T-45 isn't a banger but when your commander gives u energy for casting an artifact it can play a role, same with not knowing what the rad counters were even though they showed up in video in the edit
Also junk tokens, the best artifact tokens yet with treasures...
Yeah I agree I got really confused when they were talking about infect lol
Hasbro is chasing a high from lord of the rings that they'll likely never see again.
Lord of the rings = a lot of money, best selling set
Dr who = one of the worst selling sets and a dividing point for most players
Wizards please take a hint already! If you want universe beyond then use IPs that fit with your game for gods sake!
Kinda sad tbh, doctor who precons Was easily the best product of the year. Great designs, great reprints no need to gamble on packs since buying the precons gives you every card
@@ich3730 the worst part is, with both dr who and warhammer they cant reprint in universe cards due to copyright stuff (timelord, astartes, etc).
@@Shimatzu95loads of people have pointed out that they could just replace those with new creature types.
@@sosukelele that is IF they do this, so far all universe within versions had the same typeline as the original.
Lying and bluffing and manipulating and doing fake-outs like LSV's legendary move, as long as it's within the rules is 100% fine for tournaments.
But my god there's nothing worse than the people angle-shooting at casual FNM.
Agreed, that's why all LGS's I went to have flat price support for showing up. (I live in north europe). No extra prizes for doing well, as it should be in a casual setting.
People say legendary move, but I say scummy move. I always hated that play and would have been fucking SALTY if it were done to me.
@@TheOnionKnight1
I can see where you're coming from, but I view it in a similar lens as people bluffing in poker.
If I start counting my chips to pretend I'm going all in, and then you suddenly fold - that's on you for reading into it, you can play to the table and not to my body language.
I feel the same way about the reach for a token as if he had nothing - the other player could've played around Settle and 4 open mana - but they tried to play to the LSV's body language instead, and got wrecked for it.
@@maaikevreugdemaker9210 "flat price support" aka forced product purchasing.
@@TheOnionKnight1well it's good your a nobody in the community, and no one really cares about your feelings on the matter. :)
If you find that someone has 59 cards in their deck, you should definitely call a judge and I'm telling you this as a former judge. There's always the possibility that the missing card is hidden somewhere, so that it can be slipped into hand at right moment, and only by calling a judge will patterns of this kind of behavior be discovered... not that WotC cares anymore, but the judges do.
You guys did Preston dirty , Hes a pretty huge meme from fallout 4 for always asking you to aid another settlement .
I finally got the willpower to beat FO4 a while ago and I never spoke to him, only annoyance lies down that path. Is a bit of a wasted slow considering how many iconic characters didn't get a card IMO.
At least the flavor was on point. I guess he could have some legs if you are enchanting your own lands with like utopia sprawl effects.
I don't think any of us have played Fallout 4 :(
The Goldfish crew NEEDS to rank all basic full art land!
It's happening, don't worry.
"i don't think we know what rad counters are"
... we've known this since the first spoilers were released like, months ago
mtg players discover they are, in fact, playing a card game with hidden information and bluffing
I bet no one who was so salty ever bluffed before too right 🤭
Okay but other card games with don't players lie like mtg players do.
They also don't have 4 players in a "competitive" pod.@@MakeVarahHappen
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A bluff is when you take a risk using in-game mechanics to try and convince your opponent to think the hidden information they don't have is something that it isn't. i.e, holding a card in hand and 2 blue mana up every round is a bluff (if you don't have the counterspell). Proclaiming you have the counterspell is not a bluff.
A bluff relies on your opponent misinterpreting the facts. It's an ACTION that takes place solely with in-game mechanics. No communication whatsoever. If you need to say something to "bluff", you didn't bluff, you're just stupid and have no idea what you're doing.
Here's a pointed example, because MtG players tend to be pretty low on brain cells. If I'm attacking you with a single 2/2 while you have a 4/5, you decide to block precisely by whether you think I'm bluffing the kill on your big creature. That's a bluff. Nobody said a damn thing. The game state made all of these details apparent.
@@MakeVarahHappen Can I interest you in a game of Poker? Or Bridge? Or Pokemon? Or YuGiOh? Or literally any card game with hidden information and therefore bluffing?
Poker is a perfect example of "Lying" to win. Nothing wrong with being misleading in a card game lol.
Well actually there is a lot of etiquette in poker tournaments or high end tables. The exact same thing happened to Phil Helmutt in a tournament when some guy said he didn't have the cards, after revealing he had them. Helmutt went storming and basically every comments was with him. It's not offiacially in the rules but it's a breach of etiquette and it's very very frowned upon and can get you kicked out of the table at any casino. So to me cEDH being a "new" game would really profit to get those kinds of etiquette rules. Tho as is stands rn, i would totaly lie to you to win since there's nothing stopping me
from my knowledge of cedh, unlike other competitive formats, the fact that there are multiple people means there IS going to be some amount of social strategy. Obviously you are always aiming for a personal win (ie. you're not on a team), but staying in your own lane is not necessarily the best strategy, and I think that social aspect of cedh makes the lying situation in some ways different than just lying/rules lawyering in a 1v1 format, as in those formats you can just ignore the opponent 99 times out of 100. That being said... I think lying in an attempt to get a win is perfectly legal and fine to do. The goal of cedh is to win, and if lying/misinforming an opponent helps you towards that goal, so be it. I see it as the same thing as passing priority on a spell that should be countered when you have a counterspell in hand, even saying "i don't have anything for that" even if you do, in order to hold onto that spell to protect your own win. Sure, you lied, but it was in order to get the win, which is the end goal. If people get upset that you lied, they are also fully free and valid to be so, thus is the power of free speech. Long story short i think lying in part of the game, and in a competitive tournament, you've gotta take what your opponents say with a grain of salt.
Preston Garvey is from Fallout 4. He's one of the first NPCs you encounter, and he's the quest-giver for the Minutemen faction - who are all about building and building up settlements. This showcases a gameplay feature - settlement construction, where the main PC organizes entire communities, setting up fields of crops, water purifiers, vendors, and designing their homes - a touch of The Sims in the post apocalypse I guess. (and doing this does get you raw resources that are useful; e.g. Purified Water is a basic health item, and worth money, so producing X every Y time period allows you to heal up between combats and get extra money just for visiting your settlements). So 100% flavour win for him to be all about building up settlements and then winning the game through the resources generated by these seemingly humble settlements of just a handful of random people - that's how Minutemen playthroughs end, with the common people united to take control of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts from initially more powerful factions. He's also memetically annoying, because the quests he gives are procedurally generated so it gets a little repetitive... oh look, a repetitive ability that makes settlements. :D
I’m personally excited for this card cause it gives me a pretty nice land auras commander
Worth noting that the next set after Fallout, Thunder Junction will include a Naya lands deck as one of the 4 precons.
Here's what Radiation/Rad Counters do for anyone watching and curious. Source is from the MTG wiki
Radiation means that at the beginning of the precombat main phase, a player must mill a card for each rad counter they have. For each nonland card milled this way they lose 1 life and remove a rad counter. A rad counter is a counter that, unlike most other counters, is placed on players rather than objects.
"i HAVE played falled-out" he said, convincingly
lmaoo
Imagine Lego Duplo version of magic, for 3 year olds, as the Paw Patrol set/duel decks. Super simplified, with more symbols than words
For the CEDH tournament, do we even know if he was lying? Like at the last Commander Night event at my LGS we all knew who was winning, next player had an infinite combo set up to win, I was just able to counter his commander the previous turn to stop it (I impulse drew the pyroblast with Prosper during the previous turn end step and he didn't have the colors to recast or the mana to pay tax) and I was able to impulse draw probably the one card in my deck that let me win on that turn. I'm not going to win can turn into I will win right now with the right top deck
Based on what you described, that situation on cEDH tournament sounds more like bluffing and that is legit tactic if you are playing to win.
Nothing you say is ever a bluff. Your actions are a bluff. A lie is when you say something that's just not true. A bluff is where you make a correct play for a hand you don't have. If we're playing texas hold'em, lets say the flop is 9 10 Q, I've got 2 4 in the hole, and I give a big raise, at that point I'm bluffing the inside straight. My actions are scaring people into reacting to a hand of cards that I literally don't have. I'm not telling them anything. They're interpreting the information everyone has incorrectly. However, if I'm instead simply calling every round while loudly proclaiming to have the inside straight, that's not a bluff, it's just a lie. Well, it's also definitely a violation of the rules of the game at any respectable establishment, and most home games as well, but that's beside the point. Bluffs are risks taken for the chance at a better outcome than would otherwise occur, all done with in-game mechanics. Lies are attempts to use out-of-game functions to get an unfair advantage in-game at no risk. It's cheating. It's not that different from pulling out a gun and shooting your opponent to claim a "victory". You couldn't win at the game so you tried to feel like you're not a loser by getting outside help.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 unlike poker they allow politicking isn't it? so unless you are going to make specific rule that is going to punish "lies" then it is a fair game.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 If an opponent tells you "I'm going to win Next turn" and you lose because you player according to a piece of information disclosed by a person whose only purpose is to see you lose, you have only yourself to blame 😂.
@@KPX01 "It's not explicitly stated that this isn't ok, therefore it's ok" has never at any point been a valid argument, for any game, ever. A rather heavy-handed example, there's no rule that says you're not allowed to physically harm opposing players to get your way, therefore by the exact logic you're using it's fair to do so.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 There's a rule that says you cannot physically harm an opponent. It's called the law.
"DYNO-MITE!" reskin of Engineered Explosives for the classic sitcom Universes Beyond
Intellectually, I knew what you meant, but I emotionally read this as a Black Dynamite secret lair, which would obviously be better.
@@briankuczynski6884that would be the first ub crossover to ever pique my interest 😮😮
You mean boompile, just for Richard, right?
On the lying: I agree with some of seths points, everything maybe within the rules but being scummy makes me view magic players/card game players as terrible people and i am glad i have a consistent friend group otherwise i would not play magic. Half the crew saying nothing was scummy at all with what happened is really disheartening. Card games just bring out the worst in people
I think Assassin's Creed will be the big wake up call for UB. Assassin's Creed is 10 years past its prime, isn't a pop-culture defining franchise like LotR and Marvel, and isn't a niche franchise with a passionate fanbase like Doctor Who and Warhammer. Add to the fact that it's being sold in the terrible epilogue boosters that we already know sell terribly, I think that AC may sell even worse than Aftermath. The only way it sells is if they purposefuly print some crazy busted modern staple on the level of The One Ring or Orcish Bowmasters.
I am actually looking forward to Assassin's Creed! Lobes the first few games and also I need new Knights for Syr Gwyn!!!
crims laugh when richard called out his commander play had me rolling
43:26 I dunno. Good sportsmanship is pretty important in all other professional sports. Things that aren’t against the rules specifically are still looked down on or can even result in penalties and fines. Isn’t being to mean in football a thing? I’m not saying it has to go that far but just because you can’t doesn’t mean you should.
It really depends though. What is our isn't good sportsmanship depends a lot in the game. Games like Coup, BS, Among Us and Secret Hitler all have lying as core mechanics so it would be hard to argue that it universally must be bad sportsmanship.
In addition, in the magic tournament rules, there is a section dedicated to the rules around player communication (4.1). In that section, there is a rule stating you may not misrepresent free, derived or status information (which make up all public information) incorrectly. There is also a rule saying that players must answer all questions that a judge asks them completely and honestly regardless of the type of information. There is no rule restricting communication about private information to your opponent.
Given that, I find it hard to believe that the absence is an accident or unintentional loophole. If they wanted to make lying to your opponent in general against the rules they would have done so in that section.
@@seandun7083 those games are very different because lying is literally the core mechanic that makes those games work.
Again, just because something isn’t against the rules doesn’t mean it isn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s a difference between being sneaky and tricky and lying. It’s easy to just say nothing 🤷♀️
That’s so funny, I also spent the entire weekend browsing basic land art. Im hyped to bling out my deck😭
We have known what rad counters are since october. I wish you guys would do some prep work for these shows.
Lying and bluffing has to be fine. You can't have a game where it's impolite to win.
Ikr what are they even talking about. 😂 It's a competition and there's money on the line. It's not kitchen EDH where "everybody needs to have fun". I don't know how you can enter a tournament and then expect your opponents to always be truthful. The only thing you need to expect is that they follow the rules of the tournament.
"Is it worth it winning a tournament in exchange of having a bad boy reputation?" Are we in elementary school? What's happening, are edh players ok? 😂 Sounds like they've been coddled too long and forgot what the real world is like.
It's funny because lying in almost any other card game lying is a game loss.
@hammernnaila7031 Depends what you lie about. You are obligated to maintain a clear board state and you can't lie about known information. I don't know what other card games you're talking about but I'd be suprised if you weren't allowed to bluff. That's a major part of even games like Uno, you constantly bluff about what you have and don't have in hand. It's about mind games.
@@vulcanh254 The specific statement of 'I cannot kill you' would be grounds for a game loss in almost every major TCG. Yu-Gi-Oh, F&B, any card game that has interaction on your opponents turn lying is exactly against the rules except in Magic for some reason. Rules Lawyering is also grounds for a warning.
@@hammernnaila7031 So to be clear I don't know the literal context of the lie in question. I'm just going off by what Seth, Richard and Crim are saying. They gave multiple examples from telling your opponent that "you're not going to wrath next turn", "don't worry I don't have a counterspell", to pretending you don't have Settle the Wreckage in hand. Those are obviously bluffs. So that makes the topic confusing because now we're saying simple bluffs like that are too mean and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments, which obviously doesn't make any sense.
So the full context would've been helpful to have. If you say "don't worry I can't combo next turn" and then you combo next turn, that's ok. BUT if you pretend that your enchantment in play isn't going to make you win on your next upkeep when it will, then that's misrepresenting the board state and lying about known information.
I'm confused as to why people are mixing both of those things as if they're the same thing though.
My guess is that the rationale for Draft and Set Boosters going away was exaggerated and the bigger reason was simplifying the line up so they could introduce Beyond and Aftermath-style Boosters. Which kind of makes it funnier Aftermath flopped.
Simplifying the line up so they can add a new thing to the line up? Kind of defeats the purpose right 😂
@JonReid01 I would tend to agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that if they didn't simplify it and they added more, it would be even more complicated.
@@cablefeed3738 yeah I guess you're right because aftermath style boosters already existed
What if it wasnt even a lie? What if the player couldnt win on their turn with what they had in hand, but then topdecked that one card they needed to go off on their next draw step? Does that change it at all?
Hey gang! to the topic question: no i dont think lying is against the rules nor is it even really in bad sportsmanship of the game. Crim made a good point that we often are doing everything in our power to fake out the opponent. We politic in EDH, which is what this sounds like they did, we leave mana open to bluff the counter or protection spell when really we have nothing. I even will, to Crims point, on Arena if i really want the oppenent to swing on my 'open board' so i can Settle the Wreckage their entire team and punish their greedy 26 point attack when they could've killed me me with one creature by sending them the "Good Game" to fake out that i'm defenseless. If players are not wary of subterfuge in a game that is resource intensive, complex in timing and prone to disruptive plays like counterpulls and hand attack, then they have their own player skill to complain about. its exactly why we teach newer players to cast their spells in the 2nd Mainphase, so we can bluff in the attack or have reacts up. thats basic playership. Also ESPECIALLY in Commander, game states change at every second. What may have been a board state I have no interest in interacting with mmay turn into a prime need for a board wipe in the single once around the table. Thye may had no intention of winning that turn but drew the nut card, or they foudn themselves in a board state that needed them to win now or they were going to throw the game. and in a CEDH tournament you cant expect someone to throw a match because of good manners or poltiics. PS Im the one that Settled Seth 3 times in a single match in Viewer battles a few years ago, and I let Seth walk into those each time because i NEEDED him to, I had a slow hand i needed time to get set up.
I think with the CEDH thing, the guy who "Lied" (It's a harsh term though, isn't it?) was asked if he was going to win on his turn and said no, which caused the other player to become an unwilling "kingmaker," which is a big stigma in the CEDH community because a lot of CEDH players left the Commander community because they didn't like the political aspects of the games. So instead of being accused of being a kingmaker, he accuses the other player of being a liar. That's what I'm reading from the situation, anyway.
Preston Garvey is great and I think his card is great too. The fallout set seems to be crafted with lots of love so far.
Personally I don't think CEDH players should be politicking at all, considering how disadvantageous it is. The only communication I'd want in a CEDH game, especially if it's a paid event, is only when players announce their plays or have responses. If players wanna politic, they should just play normal Commander.
@@TastySnackies Why? How did you decide on this?
@@TastySnackies If politics are helping you to win the game, then you're being at your most competitive when you are the successful politician. You cannot purge the multiplayer effect from the multiplayer game.
CEDH players LOVE politicking. People constantly fawn over people like ComedIan for it
Marvel’s Universes Beyond is going to be interesting to watch. The comics, movies, and shows are not anywhere near where they were for popularity even just 2-3 years ago. I worry that they may have waited too long to get the full impact.
That frankly happens a lot. For adaptations or all the games copying the top video games or movies from the previous year.
Two of the biggest issues that Hasbro faced last year is their media division completely falling apart during the actor and screenwriter strikes (It plagued the whole industry) leading to them selling the studio arm of that division, and their inability to sell toys (Also plaguing the industry). This is also observed with Mattel if you remove the obvious bump they got from the Barbie Movie. Realistically, WotC and Digital is the only division they can lean into because of the changing dynamics. Now if Hasbro/WoTC lean too far into withdrawing from the present and future MTG community by making several more UB sets and dries the ichor wellspring of potential IP, they will fall into the same trap that Disney now sees itself in; lackluster product with no original material to draw from and forced into the downward spiral of finding the newest and greatest IP. They will just be doing this by "renting" IP instead of making mutli-billion dollar acquisitions; same trajectory and result. If Hasbro needs to do this to get them out of their financial rut, then I am ok with this. I rather see MTG sets getting produced then having the game die to an bankruptcy.
That being said, I would love to see a Zelda UB set. Just make that work Nintendo and WotC.
It's a shame the reserve list is going to stop them from making the Infinity Stones altered art/named Moxes. Now THAT would make it competitive with the LOTR set.
If they really wanted to, they could. They don't even have to break the RL to do it. People put way too much faith in that RL. As soon as they can milk every last drop from Magic and just kill it off and sell it, they will reprint the RL.
Until then, it's not really hard for them to make exact copies with different names.
In general, I feel like lying about the rules, about public information, or to a tournament official is bad, but for the most part lying to your opponent about private information is okay.
That being said, you generally wait to tone it down in a more casual setting in the same way that I might let my opponent know about niche rules interactions (you might want to crack your fetch before pithing needle resolves, etc) before they happen in a casual setting or in the same way I might let them not miss triggers or take back lesser misplays.
If you are a player in a tournament, just remember that your opponent isn't required to tell you the truth, so take what they say with a grain of salt. "I don't have an answer" might mean "I don't see that as a threat to me". Talk is cheap.
lying, which i consider falling under "mindgames" is not only absolutely fine in competitive games, it is to be expected. it's just another tool to enhance your chances of winning which is the singular goal in a competitive environment.
The reason that in sports you get consequences for challenging a call and being wrong is so that coaches do not use every challenge as alternate timeouts to rest their players and drag out a game (If you ever watched college basketball, the last few minutes of a game can take 30+ minutes due to timeouts) . In hockey, they made it a penalty to shoot the puck out of play excluding deflections because when the players were tired, they would just keep lobbing the puck out of play for a stoppage in play.
Lie? No. Mislead. Bluff. In game play. Part of the game
Seth: is this a step in that direction?
Yes, it is definitely *a* step in that direction. It is not *all of* the steps in that direction. It's a sliding scale with all Magic IP on one end and all UB IP on the other. I don't think we'll ever be completely on one end of the scale again but I expect wizards to adjust that slider as they feel necessary.
Lying in cedh is exactly the same as lying in commander. It's legal, you can do it, and nothing is stopping you from using it to win a game. The reason you don't do it is because doing it once means you now have an untrustworthy reputation that follows you into future games and makes deal making more difficult for you. Is one victory worth making all politics more difficult or down right impossible in your future games?
55:00 - Editor is just doing Seth dirty on repeat...
Seth did it to himself
To be completely fair to PIP, 40K had some really non-cards as well. A load of bombs as well, but let's hope they've yet to show the best
6:50 It’s an interesting point that they would need fans of the UB franchises working on them to make it work but it’s increasingly apparent with the worsening direction of the story and set concepts lately that there aren’t many fans of the Magic franchise working on their own products
For the universes beyond, I'm almost certain that we will have revisits to old universes beyond like richard mentioned, which will be interesting to see.
Gonna put this out there that Brandon Sanderson, a prolific author, is a HUGE MTG fan, and has a whole universe of potential characters. And his fans are zealots for nerd stuff. Theres even a world where a bunch of Gods exist that all are based on different colors. Would be so easy and cool.
Sanderson also already got burned once on a deal with wotc who knows if he'd want to try again
Look man, Berserk or Dark Souls and and I'm sold.
I know Final Fantasy isn’t exactly Lotr but I feel like it’s a fairly deep well with pretty diehard fans but not an exact 1/1 ring type of thing that could be used given 16+ games don’t really intertwine but have plenty of continued references so there’s plenty you could serialize but nothing 2million dollars worthy. But I agree you can only force so much till you’re at the jiffy lube secret lairs. I have a buddy I play with whose reputation is the guy who goes back on a deal immediately so don’t bother making one. Either make them have it or get bluffed it’s gonna happen and scummy or not the win is the win when it matters.
As someone who has recently got more heavily into going to CEDH tournaments, one of the big draws of CEDH is not having to deal with the very nebulous "social contract" of casual edh. Getting upset about a player "lying" (i.e. feeding misinformation) is asinine and someone at a tourney should be more savvy about things like that.
I agree with Richard there are some really good basic lands out there. I especially love all various Innistrad basic lands.
That gauntlet comment is so true. Coomers will spend thousands if not millions to "assemble the infinity stones" with paper and ink.
54:34 the rad counter token was one of the first spoilers from PIP, we've known what it does all along (granted a lot of people didn't notice it, tokens don't get much attention)
Trigun or any classic 90s anime in mtg would actually make me wanna consider buying it. Otherwise im not buying secret lairs and still not buying any sealed besides an occasional precon.
Seth: How does wizards get UB into Arena!?
Alchemy: Am I joke to you?
I mean, lotr is already on there. I don't see them having much of a problem with it.
Bluffing, and the like is fine to me. You have to be able to know when someone is bluffing or you lose.
That said, any verbalization is a step too far. It's unsportsmanlike and scummy. People always like to go "MtG pLaYeRs LeArNiNg ThE gAmE hAs HiDdEn InFoRmAtIoN! QQ more nerds!" And then try to compare MTG to Poker or something, but the reality is no one would be happy at a poker table of someone openly stated "I can't win this hand" and then revealed a Royal Flush. It would be seen as giga scummy.
The real point is bluffing and body language misleads are fine, but the rules should absolutely not allow blatant lying in any event where there's prizing on the line.
There's more games than poker that allow lying. BS, Coup, Among Us, Secret Hitler and plenty of others do. I would argue that whether or not it's okay entirely depends on both the playgroup and the game.
It's fine for a game to make a decision either way, and for better or worse, magic has decided that lying to an opponent about private information is okay. (Misrepresenting public information and lying to tournament officials are still against the rules).
In a competitive tournament you can't really have the expectations for the same social situation you would have at a table with friends for the same reason I wouldn't warn my opponent about trying to bolt my tarmogoyf in a tournament but I might at fnm.
@@seandun7083 Yeah, I get what you're saying. I just feel like MTG is a worse game if we are at the point where explicit verbal information is fine. To me there's a huge difference between LSV fiddling a token and verbally directing his opponent "I'm going to make a vampire when you attack".
In your Goyf example, it would be tantamount to, instead of saying nothing, telling your opponent "Oh my Goyf will die to a bolt."
Obviously you shouldn't assume an opponent is giving you direct verbal advice that damages them, but they also shouldn't do it. Fiddle with your cards, reach for tokens, pen trick it up. For me, and I do want to express this is solely my feeling and not some call to action, I don't like it and I don't think express verbal lies and misdirection are a good look.
Did Richard just say modern was a brewers paradise? Are you joking?
As I understand it, forgoing the social game is a cornerstone of CEDH. For example, it's very common for the player who falls behind to be ganged up on and taken out of the game.
I was playing a game of five player commander with my friends, and one player was playing a deck where he steals everything from other players and uses them against us. I had just had my commander stolen and I couldn't resummon the commander. I couldn't kill it either. I decided to swing everything at my other friend who was wide open so i could get some lifegain and card draw with my other creatures. That friend then told me before I was finished declairing attackers that he had a board wipe in his hand and would use it next turn if i let him live. He was the very next person to go, so this sounded like a good deal to me. Everyones things, including his, that were stolen would be put back in the grave. I shook his hand on it and told him that it would be us in the end to battle it out, and we formed an alliance. I played my aura shards and passed turn.
The next turn that ally of mine played a spell to steal my aura shards and then played a bunch of creatures to kill all my enchantments, then passed turn. That next players turn he stole the aura shards and that other guys commander and killed him. He then went on to play creatures and destroy all enchantments and artifacts on the board while keeping me alive with one health. Destroying or stealing every single thing i played. It was awful, and i felt so betrayed, but it was perfectly legal to screw me over, and he paid the consequences for that play.
And in doing so, he completely destroyed any future equity he had with you, assuring you'd never trust him in the game again. Short term gain, long term loss.
That's a cool story of friendship and betrayal but I'm trying to understand how it relates to a tournament setting. Why should I care if you never trust me again? I just crushed you in a tournament and got my prize. I don't care if you don't trust me anymore because you're not supposed to trust your opponent anyway. Again, in a tournament. That's not supposed to be a thing to begin with.
Your story is about a casual game with friends so it's different. It seems obvious to me that you should forget everything you think you know about EDH the moment you enter a tournament. 😅
Had an idea for the perfect IP for universes beyond: Dark Tower. It's literally about crossing different planes of reality, enough story and characters to build a full set
I do not untap with my hand; he who untaps with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I untap with my eye.
I do not draw for turn with my hand; he who draws for turn with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I draw for turn with my mind.
I do not swing for lethal with my creature; he who swings for lethal with his creature has forgotten the face of his father.
I swing for lethal with my heart.
In regards to the UB story at the beginning: Disney would have to axe Lorcana before they could license to WotC for a Disney UB. Ravensberger owns the card printing license for Disney and has been doing amazing for them. It is unlikely they would drop them for one small set over the steady hype-based income of Lorcana.
The problem is striking deals and politics are a huge part of commander formats, but you need to take the good with the bad of it. To me, the CEDH player was no more or less "scummy" than two people discussing "Oh hey, player 3 is in a real good position, if you can deal with X on their board I can deal with Y and it takes them down a peg." as that changes the 1v1v1v1 game and turns it into a 2v1v1 (at best), forcing player 3 to defend against two people for a period of time and having a gigantic target painted on their back due to politics, not organic play. As well as putting player 4 in a weird spot. Same with the counterspell example in the video and -oh hey a key piece to your strategy got lost because someone lied about hidden information.
Say that player legit didn't see the line until mid play, well after the "I can't win next turn", they didn't lie in that situation, because they gave a truthful answer given the board state at the time and everyone is making a big deal of it due to half the story. Pretty much a lot of this comes down to perspective. In the team up example I gave people will say "Oh getting too far ahead paints a target on your back anyways so it doesn't matter!", but to the player being teamed up against, maybe this is just EVERYTHING they can do for the next five turns and being teamed up against puts them so far behind they can't come back or just locks them out of the game. Does that seem fun for them? No, it seems scummy because someone didn't like they played one or two specific cards or saw the threat where none existed and convinced another player (or more) to go after them for it.
Honestly I find it more toxic that people are shaming the guy for it than anything he did, and the only way to solve this is by setting up a number of rules and guidelines that with either be way to restrictive to the social aspect of commander, or be just vague enough that they will likely never be applied fairly.
Aside from the fact that I just genuinely prefer a competitive 1v1 format like Modern, one of the biggest reasons that I stopped playing Commander was the overwhelming political aspect of the game.
I remember being in a "casual" tournament one time, several years back where I was playing Golos. Now, my Golos deck didn't have the tricks that the best versions of the decks had. I just ran Golos because at the time, he was one of very few 5C Commanders, and I've long been a fan of 5C decks. My primary Modern deck is 5C for example. I've also got builds for Pioneer that are 5C.
Unfortunately, none of that mattered to my three opponents. It was round three of the tourney, and I was in higher brackets. I was attacked by all three opponents relentlessly and didn't even get a chance to actually play the game. When I just conceded before my opponents had a chance to finish me off, one of them got visibly pissed off at me. Now keep in mind that I wasn't able to do anything for at least half a dozen turns, and I was NOT having fun. It was a miserable experience for me, but they made me the bad guy for not wanting to be their punching bag until they beat me. Me conceding, knowing that I was never going to win that game being the target, tool that away from them.
Fuck that nonsense.
@@Xoulrath_ Yeah, so from their perspective it was "standard play" by dealing with the perceived threat but from yours three people beat you down and stopped you from playing the game.
And I'll admit, I'm new to commander (about 6 months) and I'm perfectly fine with the Rule Zero nature in casual play, or even something on the LGS level. I would even say that in a casual pod the dude is a bit in the wrong for this, but the C in CEDH stands for COMPETITIVE. Take anything people say with a grain of salt and maybe don't let someone get a Silence off uncontested because apparently that's what enabled his win.
@@Zarren_Redacted oh I don't begrudge them for targeting me. It still made my game experience miserable. So I quit when it was very apparent that they were not going to stop targeting me until I was out of the game. So I just conceded. That's the part that pissed me off. Because they all got offended that I didn't just stay there and let them kill me because one of them could have gotten a point for beating me. So it affected their standings. But I wasn't there to help them win.
Like I said, I don't do Commander anymore. I wasn't really a fan to begin with, but the political nature of it (regardless of casual or cEDH) just turned me off of it. I'm looking to improve my skill at the game. Playing politics doesn't do that. If I want politics in my game, then I'll set up some Catan.
@@Xoulrath_ That's fair. I will say though that it is much more fun with friends than with strangers.
I would say that no lying is very much not okey in a tournament, but people are either directly or indirectly able to benefit from both lying and cheating in MTG tournaments.
Why is it not ok?
The magic tournament rules prohibit lying to opponents about public information. They also prohibit lying to a tournament official about any information. They do not prohibit lying to an opponent about private information.
I would also argue against lying being bad sportsmanship in all games since plenty use it as a core mechanic (Coup, BS, Among Us).
When you were reading down the biggest franchises I had a theory come to mind. I bet MetaZoo wanted a Hail Mary so they googled “biggest franchises”, saw that the top two already had TCGs, then picked the next biggest one (Hello Kitty) and thought it would be as close to popularity as pokemon or Disney 😂
My opinion on basics, Ravnica for Forest (304) Swamp (298), Invasion for Island (236) Onslaught for Mountain (344) Odyssey for Plains (333)
Those are the one's I run in all my decks, love them old lands.
My hot takes on UB:
LotR and D&D did it right with adding regular draft with the sets vs just the collector boosters.
The UB sets could replace the masters/ horizons/ legends sets and allow them into modern.
Hasbro going to milk magic then go bankrupt
great list, richard.
great, great times ahead.
The only things you can't lie about are state based actions(draw, upkeep, cast, cards in hand), everything else is fair game("i'll counter if you play X", "i have 5 islands in my hand", "i haven't combo'd yet").
Harry Potter would sell like crazy
their response to the card "Almost Perfect" was just "it dies to doomblade" for 90 seconds
ive been hearing that same criticism every time a timmy card gets previewed and im getting kind of tired of it
Is Farewell the new doomblade? ...apparently
Crim asking the real questions about mini boosters! Why WotC WHY? After deleting draft boosters they make no sense.
This wasn't lying. He was bluffing and that's 100% within the rules at a competitive setting. This isn't any different than saying I have a counterspell when you don't just to get in your opponents head
If there is a Star Wars UB, buy every copy of Lin-Sivvi you can get your hands on (not financial advice)
I think the lying debate is real easy. You are not allowed to lie about public information. If you are asked about something on the board like, "I don't recognize the art, what card is that next to your feast and famine?" You can't say stoneforge mystic if its actually bowmaster or whatever. You aren't obliged to explain that Nomads En-Kor will mill your deck and win. I really just dont get it, your playing for marbles, your opponents dont have your best intentions at heart.
I just hope the commander decks coming out (for this release) are worth it. It's been a minute since I bought one.
Regarding UB Disney - there was a leak a while back that a Disney princess SL was in the works, and I THINK (but I'm not sure) that it was leaked by the same person that leaked some other things that have happened, like Quintorius becoming a PW and a cowboy/western set. So that could be in the pipeline, but it seems somewhat unlikely at this point given Lorcana (these leaks happened before Lorcana was announced IIRC).
I'm pretty amazed nobody is saying this: the question is "do you rely on alliances at a competitive level?". If you do, lying to your allies is going to be a hindrance. If you don't, it's not.
I’ve been big on old frame foil lands, Urza block promo and Arena promo lands.
22:17 from is right. Have you seen the hype for the anime cards and the new anthropomorphic set?
WOTC: "It's Morbin' Time."
Direct to modern is the worst. All sets should go through standard. Anything else invalidates power level smoothing and hurts the game.
Hold up, Spongebob could be GOATED! Are you kidding me? With the same level of passion as lotr appllied?
Seth's take on cheating is absolutely wild here. He essentially says, "If my opponent in a tournament was playing proxies, I wouldn't care. If I knew their deck was 59 cards and not 60, I wouldn't care. I would never call out blatant cheating, because it would somehow label me as a scumbag player for the next 20 years." Seth, if your opponent is cheating, how are you the scumbag for calling them out? They are the scumbag for going against the rules to create an unfair advantage.
I think maybe the scumbag part is immediately rushing to a judge to get someone disqualified rather than giving them a chance to fix the issue. Just a simple "hey, I only counted 59 cards in your deck. are you missing a card?" before running off to the judge would give them a chance to fix the issue before it became serious. Maybe they did try to cut a card illegally or maybe it was an honest mistake and one got stuck in the deck box - you have zero information on how it happened. Either way, you're not in the wrong for calling a judge because they're down a card, but how you handle the situation shows what kind of person you are.
@@enoesiw You said it yourself there, you have zero information. Maybe this player always deliberately keeps 1 card in their deck box to play it off as an honest mistake if they get called out on it. In your example, what are you supposed to do about proxies? Ask them if their card is fake, and if they say no, just trust them? Judges are at tournaments to make sure that the game is being played correctly, and if it is not, then it is up to the judge to decide how to fix it and what kind of penalty should be given. They also keep records of game/match losses due to judge calls, so they can see patterns in players. If a player gets a judge called on them once for 59 cards and it turns out the last card is in the box, worst thing that will happen is a game loss. If that same player has the same call multiple times with the same result, now we're talking deliberate cheating with potential bans from competitive play. And isn't that what we want? To make this community better by weeding out the people who would take advantage of others?
Honestly an Avatar Universes Beyond would do well. They already have color divisions and could flavor well in the MTG Universe.
Another one that might be a stretch would be Fate series which would allow the entry of iconic heroes and their flavors into MTG. I would love a Gilgamesh or Arturia Pendragon card.
Early Final Fantasy adopters are probably in their late forties/early 50s and they are the ones with the most disposable income. In the end, which Final Fantasy games they lean on will determine how popular this is. There will obviously be Final Fantasy 7 but there are some very cool and iconic characters/items in FF4/FF6/FF9 and FFX.
Oh heck. When people "final fantasy in magic" I think ff7 and yawn. FF4, however... 👀
No idea if T-45 Power Armor is necessarily good, but slap it on a Vigilance creature and that seems at least notable. Curve out with Speaker of the Heavens or Swooping Lookout (not saying they're amazing, just examples) and you have some good poke going around. Better options would be something like Syr Gwyn and general equipment shenanigans. Maybe even stick it in an Arcades-style deck. Options are unlimited when you don't care about power level lol Probably not a staple, but I think it'll be a budget option for specific decks.
Do we have the context of whether or not is was true they could not win prior to drawing for turn and suddenly that card allowed them to win the game?
Lying in a cEDH event is similar to an angle-shoot in poker. It's legal, but people will know you are willing to do something like that, so you hurt your odds of doing well in the long run.
Hmm...🤔 Could you cover the the split topic one day on the podcast? Wouldn't splitting into 2 separate, longer lasting standards be a good thing? You could have longer lasting card pools while still switching things around a few times a year
Preston is just overcosted Naya Jorn. Instead of snow theme you run constellation, boom there’s the deck.
i think people confuse lying and bluffing way too much. it's not the same.
And none are against the rules in MTG.
The thing with Lord of the Rings wasn't just that it was a recognizable IP, but it also had the One Ring, a highly valuable lottery card, as well as being a very polished and accessible version of a property that is not bled to death yet. Marvel is going to miss the mark harder than Hasbro is expecting. The fact of the matter is, they should capitalize on a hot IP like League of Legends. They could've done that with Baldur's Gate 3, but they missed the mark with that set. Lord of the Rings was lightning in a bottle with crossover appeal that likely pulled in older MtG players. Marvel will not do that. Hasbro fucked up hard picking up that IP over something that had a significant cross-over appeal without market oversaturation.
We could not agree more with your UB debate! We have already mocked up Dragonball and Harry Potter sets on our channel. We think Anime is a quick win!
Fuck, the first edition idea by richard is excellent. They absolutely will do this for comic book things
I thought of an IP that you guys missed, that could easily be featured in the near future. We've already had Godzilla, Dracula, Transformers, Jurassic Park and The Walking Dead... all Universal Studios.They could a Strixhaven style set with the Wizarding world of Harry Potter.
It was in there, buried in the middle of that list of 20 IPs
The Universe Beyond set I’m waiting for is Elder Scrolls!
Im sorry actually im so hyped for Spongebob UB now. It could be so fucking good, imagine the jellyfish fields, omg
😂
The only to be honest in EDH is being able to politic. It is incentivized through gameplay, not social contract. Once you lie, you lose a viable game action because the other players know you will lie. it's the same reasoning for honoring deals. It's not a matter of social contract, it's a matter of game strategy.
In here commander tournaments we don't even do politics. We just play like normal tournaments.
Calling a judge on a suspicious card, deck, or player isn’t wrong, it’s actually right. I understand that you don’t want to be “that guy”, but the rules exist for a reason. In an optimal world every deck and card and play would be run past a judge constantly for the health of the game and format. So yes. DQ the proxy. Every time.
That said, if you called a judge on everything all the time in order to squeeze out undeserved game wins, that’s an issue. I like the challenge proposition by Richard. You can’t logistically allow someone to make a judge call every 30 seconds.
Yeah. Judges don't DQ a player for making a small rules mistake, but they do keep a record so if the same player keeps making "small mistakes" over and over, then they can start looking at them a lot closer.
Me: UB needs to be adjacent to MTG to see success
Also me: *At the craps table with dice in hand* C'MON STAR TREK TENT POLE SET.
Crim looks so zooted when he isn't talking, lol.