The relevance of Mu Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee in Taekwondo history
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2018
- I made this "mini lecture" about Hwang Kee and Mu Duk Kwan (also spelled Moo Duk Kwan) after being dragged into a facebook discussion on wether Hwang Kee and the Mu Duk Kwan had any relevance at all for Taekwondo history. Hwang Kee never truly joined the Korean Taekwondo Association, prefferring instead to do his own thing (Hwa Soo Do, later Tang Su Do and later still Su Bahk Do), but he had a lot of influence in the formative years of Taekwondo, and his students had a lot of influence in Kukki-Taekwondo from the mid 1960s onwards.
In this mini lecture I talk about the early history of the Mu Duk Kwan, I talk about Hwang Kee, and I also go into some famous practisioners from Hwang Kee's lineage that has influenced Kukki-Taekwondo and still does. Richard Chun and Doug Cook are both mentioned toward the end of the clip as perfect examples of why Mu Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee is relevant for Taekwondo history.
The one caveat to this is that any further development, improvements, innovations of Hwang Kee done later than the late 1960s is pretty much irrellevant for modern Taekwondo, but that does not take anything away from his initial imporantce for being part of the foundation that modern taekwondo was built upon.
Link to the blog post that was discussed: cheongnyongyu.com/2018/06/17/t...
My own blog posts on the same book:
Post one a translation on the contents list: jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot....
Post two a commentary on the content: jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot....
Post three: A translation of some parts of the book from Korean to English: jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot.... 
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When I studied TSD decades ago, I happened to meet a fellow from TKD and we compared the differences and learned there were few, at least in the traditional teachings. He said, "It's all Moo Duk Kwan", something I have always remembered. And they all owed Won Kuk Lee, who coined the term Tang Soo Do. Most don't realize that the original Karate-do Shotokan kanji translated to Tang, or China hand, a holdover from its Okinawan roots. But it was changed since Japan was very nationalistic in the 1920s, and Chinese influence was not appreciated. I believe that Korea's own nationalistic movement led to renaming a great many things to remove the Japanese influence but the training was based on the Japanese arts as during the occupation most of the indigenous arts were erased.
In my opinion, Hwang Kee obscured a lot of the early history of not only the origins of Tang Soo but his own training for patriotic reasons. That is, how to take a purely Japanese art and make it Korean while keeping the basics that had roots in Okinawa. If you talk to Koreans they will assure you the art is based on older Korean styles but it is really based on Gichin Funakoshi's alterations to his Okinawan style to suit the Japanese, who wanted a kick-punch art and had little interest in the throws, take-downs and joint locks of the complete art. If TSD and TKD weren't based on Shotokan, they would have these. I think Moo Duk Kwan owes more to Shotokan than Soo Bak or Taekkyeon.
the TKD way of doing forms is more related to okinawan way of doing the shotokan movement than the overlow stances use in japanese karate
There are still Moo Duk Kwan style Tae Kwon Do schools that teach the older Kicho, Pyung Ahn, and Bassai (Balsek) patterns as well as the old 1 and 3 step sparring techniques.
Very true, and some teach the older Soo Bahk/ T'ang Soo and the Palgue forms from Kong Soo Do/ Ji Do Kwan as well as the newest Taegeuk/ Kukkiwon forms!
@@cactusextra6618 Are you going to say that Palgwae & Taegeuk are reform version of Pinan & Passai???
PS >> I also heard that Taebaek (3th Dan Poomsae) is just an annexed from Palgwae Poomsae.
Our small school here in N.C. does (or did before closing in 2020). We also practice Close-In 1 Step - Wide-Apart Pre-sparring (3). Hope everyone's able to get back on the Floor soon! Best...LD
This is US! Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan taught the old way out of Greenfield MA. Very focused on Forms/Hungs/Taeguk (Gitchu/Pyung ahn/Bassai etc), blocks/kicks/punches and sparring- 1/3 step and full contact. We do NOT go to competitions as we are not a sport.
@@PartTimeJedi OK. Relax.
I studied Tang Soo Do in Korea in the late 1980s. Grand Master Hwang Kee sat on the board for my black belt test. I received a silver Tang Soo Do ring from him after passing the test. The Koreans trained very hard back then. No nonsense. Interesting thing though, I was traveling around Korea during this time and I had a conversation with an older Korean gentleman on a train. We started to talk about martial arts and I said that I studied Tang Soo Do. The gentleman smiled and told me that Tang Soo Do was not a true Korean art. He said it was more of Japanese Karate, and that Tae Kwon Do and Hwarang Do were true Korean arts that I should study. I thought it was an interesting comment for him to make.
That comment has more to do with nationalism then anything else. Many of the founder of Taekwondo were Shotokan black belt. Won Kuk Lee was a 4th degree black belt in Shotokan when Shotokan only go to 5th.
I have read some time ago a similar thing: that TSD is a Shotokan Karate but with Korean names. And the explanation was that during occupation traditional Korean MA were forbidden, but Japanse allowed their MA (Judo, Kendo, Karate).
Great discussion and consistent with my research.
Orjan you are an absolute legend. As a history lover, Taekwondo-practitioner since 1996 student of a
A Korean Jidonwan Master for years, I am very interested in all of this re: the Toyama / Funakoshi lineage, Kwans and thekr history and the KTA. Thanks so much for all you have contributed! You, Al Gillis, George Vitale, Doug Cook are all legends and I appreciate all of you for the commitment to search for truth and research of Taekwondo! 👊🏼🙏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
The Funikoshi lineage and influence is correct but is only one lineage that affected the end product. One of Hwang Kee's first students was Sam Hyun Nam, one of Nam's favorite students was Myung Kyu Kang and as a student of and an instructor at Grandmaster Kang's school for many years I can attest to his references to Funikoshi Sensei and connective similarities in the styles.
Thank for this vid bro 🙏🏾
Thanks for this comment 🙏🙇♂️
Thank you. I always learn so much from your videos!
Alan Hayes thank you so much for your kind words:-)
Of course Moo Duk Kwan is relevant to Tae Kwon Do. To suggest otherwise is utterly ridiculous. It is the largest single style system in the world today. Approximately two thirds of Tae Kwon Do finds it's origin in Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan, Soo Bahk Do or whatever you want to call it. When TKD became an olympic sport Tang Soo Do stylists were dominating forms and fighting nationwide. This is why they disallowed the Tang Soo Do forms and required Tae Guk instead. I was there when it all happened. Authentic Tang Soo Do was and is the best and always will be. Hwang Kee was a visionary who created the first mixed or blended martial art by taking the best elements from Japanese, Chinese and Korean systems. Much of the essence of the original art has unfortunately been lost through commercialization and sport.
Anthony Pratt I agree wholeheartedly that Mu Duk Kwan is relevant for Taekwondo history. It’s why I made the movie ;-) That being said there’s a lot of people out there who think otherwise :-/ I was even ridiculed by a 7th dan master because I referenced the 1958 tang soo do textbook by Hwang Kee to make a point in a discussion. Since Hwang Kee never joined the taekwondo movement, using him was stupid and ignorant according to the master. I tried to say that it was a good example of what Mu Duk Kwan students would bring to taekwondo :-)
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings Thank you. I wasn't intending to imply you meant otherwise. I just wanted to add my voice in support. Great video.
Thanks Anthony :-) I understand. I just commented because many read a few comments and then move on, not even watching the video :-)
Excellent video, Sir!
I used to practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo.
When taekwondo was self defense based before becoming .ore focused on sport. Seeing the different kwans and what they brought to mix is incredibly interesting. Looking at tang so do has been something i did a lil recently just to see what the synthesis was and how they evolved differently
This is another really good video. I call it a gem.
Just to clarify, GM Hwang Ki was a really BIG deal. But simply put, he didn't have any direct involvement with creating or developing the main TKD styles or systems. This is not meant as any type of negative comment or attack. He was the most important & most influential Korean Martial Artist after Gen. Choi. His reach was global & he connected with so many followers! However, he, like the Chung Do Kwan founder, GM Lee Won-Kuk, had no direct involvement with the 2 major TKD movements.
But you are 100% correct, that their influence is there & it is real.
And we must remember that their influence is not direct, but that which was delivered through their many talented students! Their students became the 2nd generation leaders that gave us Kukki TAEKWONDO or Olympic Sport Taekwondo.
That is a real difference that needs to be clearly understood, so followers & students of our history, along with others, can understand better our history.
Thank you for a very interesting video.
Thanks :-) I’m planning a video series going more into the history of taekwondo after my Summer vacation is over :-)
I can't wait! This I'm really looking forward to.
Very helpful, thanks. I studied Tae Kwon Do in the 60's in the Jhoon Rhee tradition and went through the transition from the pyung Ann forms to the chon hon series.
I used to have the original Richard Chun text and the one on free show sparring, but in a "moment of unclearity" gave them both away.
What is the name of the modern text book you referred to available from amazon?
Thanks.
choi hong hi studied shotokan karate, in his books contained shotokan forms
advancing in tkd by richard chun
When a little tot; I took form 1 from a man who taught "Moo Duk Pi". I have been wanting to get back into MA, yet I find no knowledge on any of my practices, I was hoping synonym☺️☺️☺️
I found Moo Pi mentioned out of Virginia, but not much past that.
Any help or knowledge would be great!
You should do a video on Taekkyon, Kuk sul wan, Hwa Rang Do, Tukong Moosul, Tang So Do, Hapkido
Thanks for the suggestion, but I’ll try to stick with what I know :-) My knowledge is primary about tang Su do and Taekwondo (although I have limited exposure to Hapkido and taekkyon). I’ve been meaning to follow up with one video pr Kwan or something but at the time being I need to focus on self training and the training of students through live training :-) I love history so stay tuned I will make more :-)
In fact, none of the 5 original Korean Karate Kwan founders had any major, direct role in the development of Kukki Taekwondo or Olympic Sport Taekwondo.
The original Korean Karate Kwan founder that did have a somewhat minor, early role, was of course the Song Moo Kwan founder GM Ro Byung-Jik. After all, he stayed involved with the early Taekwon-Do movement after the Korean Civil War ceasefire, while 3 of his peers left Korea or disappeared during their Civil War.
We know the 5ht, GM Hwang Ki stayed loyal to his Su Bak Do movement & development. But GM Ro served as Gen. Choi's V.P. of the 1st (1959) KTA & his ITF (1966). In January of 1966, he succeded the General as 4th president of the (1961) KTA, after Gen. Choi forced them to adopt his Taekwon-Do name as their label (in 1965). While a single, 1-year term president of the KTA, he started the President's Cup. But after he left office, he returned to focusing on his own Kwan, eventually moving to the USA to join his son in the State of Minnesota.
However, 1 of his senior students, GM Kang, who rose to the presidency of the Kukkiwon in the post Dr. Kim Un-Yong era, played a significant role in Kukki or sport Taekwondo. So yes, his influence continued through his students as well. It really was the 2nd generation leaders & the 3rd generation professors that gave us today's Kukki (sport) Taekwondo.
Thank you!
I practice Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do) ✊🥋🇰🇷
When I was in ITF taekwondo it mentioned Moo du Kwan.General Choi Hong Hi.
I'm curious if you have been able to compare Hwang Kee's original 1950's book to his 1970's book? I'm wondering if all the basics and forms remained the same.
Very short answer: No 😂
Word!
Honestly been on a personal taekwondo synthesis journey to make my own taekwondo specifically still martial art and self defense based
Nice :-) Getting back to the root of Taekwondo is a great path 👍🏻
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings >>> There's a lot of hole about TKD history and other Martial Arts that involved with (Thai translation is not accurate like the other). As I knew, Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do & TKD was settled in Pattaya. Most of Kwan in Thailand came from Chong Do Kwan, so my TKD also.
PS >>> Are Tang Soo Do & Su Bak Do the same????
@@tm114paul yes and no (is tang Soo do and Su bahk do the same). It would depend on the Dojang and their lineage. Hwang Kee started using that name relatively early on, but in his 1958 textbook he seems to be using Hwa Soo do (flower hand), tang Soo do (China hand) and Su bahk do interchangeably. In my subjective experience ive noticed many Soo bahk do Dojang put more emphasis on Hwang Kees own forms rather than the karate forms, while a tang Soo do Dojang might do more or put more emphasis on karate forms. Again I’m sure there are exceptions to this too. Another thing to consider a tang Soo do school does not ensure a Mu Duk Kwan lineage as it was a general term (in most cases it is though), but a Su bahk do Dojang would have a Mu Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee lineage due to it being a term he favoured. Hope that helps :-)
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings According to Moo Duk Kwan that I knew, there're three Brotherhood kwan. First is TangSooDo / Second is TKD / Third is SuBak Do. Correct? (Or Renew the name from Moo Duk Kwan TangSooDo into Moo Duk Kwan SuBakDo?
@@tm114paul Mu Duk Kwan is the Kwan so a tang Su do, a Su bahk do and Taekwondo can all be Mu Duk Kwan. It tells you where the lineage comes from. The martial art can tell you a little of what to expect but it’s all just a mess. I could tell you that a Su bahk do Dojang will probably focus more on Hwang Kee forms, a tang Su do will focus more on the karate forms and a Taekwondo school will focus on the kukki tkd forms (Taegeuk and judanja Poomsae), but in reality a Taekwondo Mu Duk Kwan Dojang might put equal emphasis on the karate forms as well 🤷♂️😂 Therefore it is more helpful to think of it today as a way marker in terms of where the lineage of a Dojang comes from. That’s my personal view though :-)
There is Moo Duk Kwan school near where I live. I was thinking of joining a class for the first time but I want to know what is the main emphasis of the art. Does it focus more on the self-defense side or the forms?
I’d say forms, but I will also say that you should in no way take my word for it and go and check it out. There’s a lot of variation on a club to club basis (even instructor to instructor basis) so it might be that this particular dojang has a lot of self defense training. Good luck :-)
Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do is more self defense oriented than Taekwondo in my experience. In TKD is all about kicking and Olympic sparring. In TSD is very traditional. One step sparring, Self defense moves, patterns, proper technique and yes, Forms.
However, the forms, which you seem not to like, hide very valuable, destructive and even brutal applications. They're not just for show, but you need an instructor that knows how to apply them.
Lestat220289 I agree, but I still hold that it is on a dojang to dojang and instructor to instructor basis. I practise taekwondo but it is often more “traditional” than karate and Tang Su Do schools I see. I know that this is not the norm but that’s the reality for me :-)
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings That's great! I spent time training with a TKD school last year and the Master told me he and others wanted to re-insert tradition and realism into their training. The Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo organization is my country is also very traditional for the most part.
I train at Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do HQ in NJ, and it focuses on both heavily. You will learn forms (hyung), and ho sin sool (wrist grabs) and one step sparing someone throws a punch or two punches, and you counter them. I would recommend training in this art as long as you go to a credible school as they're lots of copycat knockoff schools.
Hwang Kee is very relevent to martial arts but not necessarily modern TKD. MDK did not agree with many of the issues surrounding the formation of the unbrella group established by other Kwans. He first joined but then opted out. Hwang Kee took a different direction as did those that studied under him. People such as Sam Hyun Nam who then taught other early students of Moo Duk Kwan broadened the base of knowledge to include more than what modern TKD is known for today. Then when brought to America the base of this was also broadened more, depending on the particular organization and teacher. One of Nam's premiere students was Myung Kyu Kang (10th Dan) who originally came to America in the early 1960's to establish a school in Sacramento,California. His instruction included the Moo Duk Kwan techniques as a pure core art that was surrounded by elements of Yudo, Hapkido, Judo and various Chinese influence. However, many of the core remained true to the original technique, form and power. The forms taught under his sphere of influence contain none of the modern TKD forms. In fact the forms of this branch of MDK teaches forms such as Hwarang, Chung Moo, Hobo and others not seen in modern TKD. Also , the influence of Hwang Kee's exposure to China cannot be underestimated and the same can be said of Grandmaster Kang who was born in Manchuria. So, I believe your original accessment is correct. Hwang Kee is both relevent to modern TKD yet irrelevent at the same time as Moo Duk Kwan's core techniques are similar to modern TKD yet very different in many ways. Moo Duk Kwan to a different, separate yet parallel path. Mr. Wolf is also correct in his accessment that Shotokan played a role. This is easily seen in some similarities in the styles and the fact that Funikoshi Sensei founded Shtokan two decades before Moo Duk Kwan was established.
I'm studed whit Grand Master Mike Edward Andrews at Brazilian !!!
Which came first? Tang Soo Do or Taekwondo?
MAPS MARTIAL ARTS PHILOSOPHY STATION I’d say tang Su do in all respects. Taekwondo did not get its name until 1955, while tang Su Do has been in use since 1944 in Korea and even earlier in japan and Okinawa (tang su Do is the korean way of reading the old term of karate.
Taekwondo was something developed over time, while tang Su Do was for all intents and purposes karate. Now tang su Do today might have more or less korean innovations like high kicks and Korean developed forms but original tang Su Do was pretty much karate.
Ørjan Nilsen that’s very true. Tang soo do is very kick heavy.
Neither. Taekkyeon precedes them both. ^_^
Tang Soo Do
You should do a video on differences and similarities in ITF WTF ATA
My knowledge of the modern ITF is very limited and my knowledge on ATA is almost non existent so sorry, I’m not planning on doing any on those :-) Thanks for commenting 👍🏻
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings ITF and WT have nothing in common except the name. Gen Choi change too much of what today is ITF with the including of a sine wave movement which totally mess up ITF. I have my black belt in both ITF and WT as well as traditional TSD.
Tip Top
I practice mu duk kwan
I study Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon do
My. Husband seems .black. Holder. In tang. Soo. Do in. India. Assam
Moo duk kwan...is not a style ....was the name of the school of master..kwan kee ..in that school he thaugth tang soo do
Dham Toi or rather Tan tui are not new forms from the 1930s and Yang Taijiquan was around 100 years old by then....where do you get your misinformation and sources from? If you cant answer that then I take it it you lied just for this video?
Tan Tui was founded during the Ming Dynasty as a component of The Hui Moslems Cha Quan martial art that is also considered a system and style on it own and is over 800 years old by the 1930 and spread all over China. Its one of the oldest northern Long Fist styles and is literally taught in nearly every northern style as a basic pattern. Tan Tui has 10-12 and 28 roads variations. lol
So if I come off as rude I just cant understand why people like you feel the need to talk about stuff without researching facts...
Raghu Seetharaman nuances often don’t come across in written form so I don’t take it rude.
If I say that tai chi is new from the 1930s that obviously a mistake. I am not really comfortable on camera, and I’m not a native English speaker. I’m currently working on that by making RUclips videos :-P
Damttui is something very peripheral to an already peripheral area of my history studies. I have read that they’re from the early 1900s in two articles on Hwang Kee and in one tang Su Do book. Since I have no ties to the Mu Duk Kwan I took that as fact. If this is some wrong notions being spread in KMA then you’re right to shut it down as you do. I’m not “lying” in the video, if it is a mistake it is simply me not being better than the sources I have available. Would you recommend any trustworthy online material on this issue? Or a book?
Good luck in the park today :-)
What an asshole. Classic Jujitsu. Sadly most Jujitsu people I see online are idiots.
@@Avenging_Archer I agree, most jiujitsu people are thugs who get into real street fights hence can actually fight unlike....
@@mongolchiuud8931 Unlike keyboard warriors like you, I guess. Like I said, idiots. You know what a Venezuelan BJJ black belt/MMA fighter told me when he was giving us a seminar?
NEVER GO TO THE GROUND IN THE STREET. He would know, he worked prison security. Now that's a warrior. You sound like a keyboard warrior only.
@@Avenging_Archer Why are you avoiding the subject? hehe Would you learn from a master who learned from books with 3 years of actual basic training who created his own system? And Jiujitsu is not only ground fighting my young grass hopper.
ruclips.net/video/Aeg926nPCGQ/видео.html
Also reminds of the time Chuck Norris admitted to being rag dolled and choked out by the Gracies and ended up learning BJJ to add to his system.
ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=Gracie+choked+out+Chuck+norris
Also why is only BJJ has street fight videos that prove there system against bigger people? hehe
ruclips.net/video/onzhbKACItw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Gwz5x7eaAl0/видео.html
ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=old+gracie+challeges
Dont be mad Daniel son...just facts.
1- 🇰🇷 MDK- 🇨🇳
I want to copy Hwang Kee's martial arts journey!
Today I with go out and spy on a martial arts class at a park and learn martial arts from there,
Then i'm a go learn kata and forms from books, then practice some random martial arts for 3 years then create my own martial arts with new made up forms! Just like Hwang Kee! Awesome!
Raghu Seetharaman Go for it ! 🤗🤗🤗 Sounds like a hoot 👍🏻
And yet he created one of the largest martial arts organizations in the world and influenced martial arts forever. Hwang Kee is the reason why everyone is doing High kicks today. Before TSD got famous, Japanese Karateka were not amazing kickers, just the basics. People think TKD revolutionized kicking, but Tang Soo Do came first. TSD kicks influenced even celebrities like Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Angela Mao.
Not to mention TSD produced one of the world's most recognized martial artists, Chuck Norris, as well as world champions in Kickboxing like Curtis Bush, Dennis Alexio, Hector Peña, etc.
@@Avenging_Archer The world championed you list use kickboxing in there fight, strange how they never use the TSD stances and the blocks of "tang soo do" but rather they bounce around throwing jabs and "Taekwondo" kicks.
Also the populatrity in the past makes it even more amusing, and everything you said still doesnt change the fact the man learned kata from books, and studied only 3 years of kung fu and claimed to have mastered taeekyon from spying on an older man from afar....all this according to his own organizations official history. lmao
@@mongolchiuud8931 Yes, it's called the difference between self defense and combat SPORTS, you dolt.
Lyoto Machida does Shotokan Karate and he fights in the UFC. Exactly WHEN did he use a Karate High block? Or a Yama tsuki punch? Or a Knifehand strike?
Guys like you are a dime a dozen.
@@Avenging_Archer You basically just admitted to your systems practicing worthless techniques that r only done in kata, hence why so called karate n tang soo do people end up reverting to "kickboxing" for real fighting. hehe thanks Lyoto Machida is also a black belt in BJJ. =P
You talk really slow!,.. Your hard to listen to,. Speed up man and make your point, WTF has little to No relivence to MOODUKKWAN as WTF is Sport and MDK is self defense.
I’m so sorry to inconvenience you with my slow speaking. I’m Norwegian so English is not my native language. I do my best though. Merry Christmas to you and your kin.
@David Lee Maybe show a little appreciation? You can use the playback speedup button if you're in a rush or find it challenging to follow.
@@traditionaltaekwondoramblings great video! Don't let guys like this get you down.
one day you will wake up
MDK has relevance to WT. Moo Duk Kwan, is after all, one of the 5 original Kwans that founded TKD, wang Khee deviated and formed MDK Soo Bahk Do because he wasn't chosen to head the KTA, and he wanted to have a more distinct style. His students, Kim Young-taek, Hong Chong-soo, and Lee Kang-ik, splintered from the main MDK to join the Kukkiwon full time, but they are still recognized by Master Wangkhee.