Tang Soo Do History - From Rising Sun To Morning Calm
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2018
- Tang Soo Do is said to have come from the ancient Korean arts of Taekyun and Soo Bahk, and be thousands of years old. In fact, it is much younger than that, having come from Okinawa, through Japan, to Korea and America, where it evolved into the art we know today.
While Grandmaster Hwang Kee is credited as the founder of Tang Soo Do, he is not. He is the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, or "School of Martial Virtue" and played a large part in what we know today as Tang Soo Do, but he is not the founder.
References:
Won Kuk Lee
sites.google.com/site/cdktkd/...
jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot....
bluewavestl.com/won-kuk-lee/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Won_Kuk...
www.washingtonpost.com/archiv...
Hwang Kee
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_K....
moodukkwanhistory.com/hwang-k...
moodukkwanhistory.com/series/...
martialarts.stackexchange.com...
moodukkwanhistory.com/kee-hwa...
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Not sure what happened to my original post, but this is a great historical summary. When Jhoon Rhee began teaching in the USA he referred to his style as Tang Soo Do. When I began studying in the Rhee system he used the term Tae Kwon Do but we studied the Ki Cho and Pyung Ahan forms. I remember the day Rhee shifted us to the ITF forms along with several technique changes. Personally, I still like the older Hyungs, especially now since so many ITF schools have introduced the ridiculous "sein wave" movement. Traditional Tae Kwon Do and Traditional Tang Soo Do seem very similar and this is where my heart is.
Hi Allen,
My training now has become a very traditional and personal journey for me, no longer adhering to any style, but training Karate as an art, and striving to make it MY expression of Karate. I love the traditional forms and training as well.
@@kputala True.. the more you train, observe and understand.... the more one realizes that it is all converges to the same lessons - just taking different routes.
Tang Soo Do is essentially a Korean version of Shotokan karate.
Exactly. The history normally given though is that it is from the ancient arts of Subak and Taekyon, and goes back to ancient Korea. Not true.
@@kputala Truth be told, it is very difficult to tie modern Korean martial arts to ancient systems like subak and taekyon because so little is known about them. Many of the records of these early systems were lost. The Japanese occupation (1909-1945) further complicated the issue.
@@garycleveland6410 I agree. The occupation was so brutal that Korea almost lost its identity, and after the war struggled to rebuild their culture. Any martial arts that came from Japan would NEVER be acknowledged as such. The history had to be Korean and changed needed to be made to make it different.
@@kputala I feel that politics in the martial arts, make truthful exchanges like ours quite difficult in Korea. I have no illusions that arts like Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do clearly have Japanese roots.
Hwang Kee is the founder of Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do is a more advanced form of "traditional Tang Soo Do" as it was taught in the earlier years and taught now by organizations like the World Tang Soo Do Association. Hwang Kee had a brilliant mind.
I started studying Tang Soo Do in 1969 at 10 years old. We had the patterns of the 5 Pinan forms of Shotokan on the wall showing us how to do the next 5 forms after the first three basic forms.
Even to a very young man it was obvious that we were doing a Korean version of Japanese Karate. The forms were executed in a very much a “Hard” style of execution. We just practiced front, back, side, round, and spinning back kicks.
After a couple of years all the various spinning a hook kicks were brought in. We were told stories of ancient Korean arts, mixed with Northern and Southern Chinese styles. What I was told on the side was that their was a lot of hatred between the Koreans and Japanese because of Japans occupation of Korea. So they wanted to give no credit to the Japanese.
Huang Lee’s son had taken control of the organization around 4 years later. I tested for my Dan rank under him. Korean politics being what they were they wanted everyone under the Tae Keon Do banner.
They went through several different alterations of the forms to make them supposedly more Korean. We stayed with Tang Soo Do Moo Do Kwan for a long time. We still practiced the Japanese/ Okinawa forms but they had become more circular and more of a soft style in execution. Eventually my instructor got sick of the politics and left. For awhile it was called the Moo Doo Kwan Tang Soo Do Soo Bak Do Association!
In 1991 I was promoted to Master rank in the old Tang Soo Do style we practiced. In the years to follow I trained in Okinawan Karate, White Crane Kung Fu, and Seven Star Praying Mantis styles.
Plus throw in some modern combative, Judo. And reality based Martial Arts. Tang Soo Do is still my core art. But as the gentleman says seek out your own path. Learn all you can. Take what works for you.
The shame is their are some excellent practitioners of Korean Arts. It is just a shame some still tell fairy tales regarding the origins of what they practice, I believe the authors analysis is spot on.
Hello Dave, thanks for the comment and I agree totally, because when I was training in Korea in 1985 the story was almost identical. It was very traditional training, focused on mastering the basics, with the only spinning kicks being a spinning back kick, heel kick, and crescent kick. The only jumping kick was the jump front and side kick. My instructor, Master Yun, seemed to not agree with the politics and all by that time as well, and never spoke of Hwang Kee much at all. The hatred between Korea and Japan was still prevalent even when speaking with girls in the clubs who were part Japanese, as they were treated as lower class. I eventually stopped calling what I do Tang Soo Do and began my own journey searching for the real roots of Karate, not the TSD history that was being pushed of it coming from an art called Subahk and all. I believe we honor our teachers more by continuing to seek what they sought rather than imitate them and keep passing on the same storied past. My training now is a very personal journey, researching the different Okinawan styles, the Bubishi, and making connections to the other arts I have studied. With age comes wisdom I guess! Thanks again for sharing your experience.
Excellent video. Thanks for clearing up so many misconceptions about Tang Soo Do origins. Hwang Kee was an innovator who improved on many aspects of existing martial arts i.e. he made Japanese blocks more practical and effective. Bravo!
Thank you so much, Hwang Kee definitely made his mark on Tang Soo Do. I wish there was footage if him training.
I have a couple of students who used to practice Kyokushin and they told me that the forms are similar as well. There is a HUGE overlap in many styles of Karate as well.
I have Mas Oyama's book "Essential Karate". I bought it and studied it when I was fourteen. After going to Korea and beginning my Tang Soo Do journey I was surprised to see that the forms in the book were almost identical to what I learned in Korea! After going to Germany and training in Shotokan and seeing the styles were practically the same, I started digging for answers. No internet back then so didn't get many answers until Google came along! Hahaha.
Kevin W. Putala That’s great. It has been nearly 20 years now and I have been hitting the Makiwara boards with my hands and feet. They really do make your punches and kicks stronger.
Yes sir a lot of them overlap. Do you also hit the makiwara boards?
@@tellitlikeitis5045 Yes, I strike the makiwara (mounted to my garage wall) and the 3 section hanging bag filled with sand. I believe if you are training for self defense you must prepare your hands through conditioning or you will get injured and have less effect in the street.
Kevin W. Putala exactly.
its interesting. the popular japanese story of it all is that when japan annexed korea in the late 30's, many of the wealthier class of koreans were allowed to send their kids to college in japan. it is said that both "hwang ki" and "choi hong hee" both attended takushoku university in japan where funakoshi and his son were teaching shotokan karate. "chi do kwan" tkd came from another korean who learned "chito ryu karate" at yet another university karate club and took it back to korea. also it is interesting that the forms practiced by the early moo duk kwan styles that closely resembled the "pinans" of itosu's shorin ryu were identified by the koreans as the forms of a japanese master they called "ito". so, "ito"......"itosu" ...... very similar names right? i just retired from 40 yrs. of training after having both hips and a knee replaced. i earned a black belt in moo duk kwan tkd and then moved to shotokan where i ended at yondon level (4th dan).
Hi Russel! That's the first time I have heard of Hwang Kee attending college in Japan, very interesting and would explain alot. There is no way after the occupation ended that Korea would ever give credit to Japan for anything. Like myself, it sounds like you rode martial arts until the wheels fell off. I still do what i can in my private training, but it has evolved alot.
A very honest and straightforward history of Tang Soo Do. Very well presented!
Thank you very much sir, I appreciate it!
Great video. This is very important. They are many of us with a complex lineage when it comes to Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do.
Thank you Sensei! When I trained in Shotokan in 88-91 there was no internet and I couldn't figure out how the Tang Soo Do I learned in Korea which was supposedly from ancient Korean arts was almost identical to Shotokan, an art from Japan and Okinawa. Years later I began digging and putting together the pieces. I'm still digging, reading the Bubishi and going further back. Thanks for your support! Tang Soo!👊
I have a book, Tang Soo Tao. It also explains a lot of what you talked about. Great stuff. Tang Soo!
Thank you! Never heard of that book, I'll have to look it up! There's more videos to come, as soon as we get into our new home. Everything's in boxes! Tang Soo!
I love the history and your explanations and the why's
Thank you Juan, I'm glad you enjoyed it. 🙏
Great overview! Some thoughts from me:
- "Tangsoodo" was just the Korean reading of "karatedo" (until Funakoshi Gichin made popular the new Chinese characters of it - which would sometimes be read as "gongsoodo" in Korea later, too). Nobody in Korea "invented" the word per se.
- Partially due to the name "tangsoodo," Koreans seemed to assume that the arts taught were actually Chinese - so the forms, etc. were thought to be old, traditional Chinese forms. Later they learned that actually most were developed in Okinawa (and thus in one sense Japan).
- They did generally seem to know that karate was from Okinawa, and thus not Japanese exactly (phew!). However, ironically, tangsoodo and taekwondo are based on Japanese karate, not Okinawan karate (i.e. the karate that changed to suit Japanese preferences after importing to the mainland); Okinawan karate still has comparatively more "Chinese-like" aspects than mainland Japan.)
- Hwang Kee's martial history is certainly murky; although we know his claims ("Yang Kuk-jin"), based on the material taught in tangsoodo, we can see no real traces of Chinese influence at all - not even one form, for example. Tangsoodo's material is almost all Shuri-te karate (pinan forms, bassai, rohai, kusanku, etc.); even the weapon skills (when there) are Okinawan kobudo (e.g. staff use is quite different in China).
- Almost all the early kwans were murky if they mentioned learning taekkyon as a child - since taekkyon did actually survive, and looks quite different from taekwondo, tangsoodo, etc. Probably it was just the idea of taekkyon as having many high kicks that influenced karate in Korea to change in that direction.
- But yes, tangsoodo (and taekwondo) are basically localized kungfu.
Chinese kungfu (vague Shaolin-type) -> Okinawan todi (shuri-te) -> Japanese karate (Shotokan-ryu) -> Korean tangsoodo -> Korean taekwondo (changed via gov't pressure)
Thank you. The longer I trained and the more exposure I had training in other arts and styles, the more I find more similarities than differences. I now just look at all of the styles as the art of Karate and take from all of the ones I learned making it my own personal expression of the art. I no longer adhere to any style, which is how it was in the beginning.
@@kputala That's ideal for sure! Once we are no longer bound by a "style" or "school," we gain a new freedom to look at every art with new eyes - that's when it becomes very interesting!
Great historical recap. The only thing, I would add is the emphasis of early American soldiers and American Black belts in the 60's added a rough and tumble-styled emphasis to Tang Soo Do; Namely all of the original Chuck Norris Blackbelts with their emphasis on fighting. Great recap, I appreciate the well-presented information.
Thank you! The early American karate competitions of the 60's were rough for sure and Tang Soo Do was well represented, as were other styles. I think the mindset, being military, many combat vets played a huge part in that. 👍
A good book describing some historical aspects of tang soo do , taekwondo (most forms) via the politics of Korea- a good read...
"A Killing Art: the untold history of taekwondo"
Describes what u say in this video... and a whole lot more.
Makes u realize that karate is karate no matter what is called. My first style was the chang hon forms style of taekwondo.
I've heard of that book, I'll have to check it out. Thanks! 👍
I started in the 80s and we did all the traditional forms. We started doing Chil Sung 1-3 also but a few years later our school broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan and ditched the 3 Chil Sungs. Oh Sip Sa Bo was our highest hyung. When I started practicing a few years ago there were now 7 Chil Sungs and 6 Yuk Ros that were on the curriculum. Supposedly these were developed in '52 and '57 respectively but never heard of Yuk Ros till a few years back and in the 80s had no idea anything beyond Chil Sung Sam Dan existed. When were these forms actually introduced into most schools? I personally still only practice 21 traditional forms.
I never heard of the chil sung forms until the 90's. Oh Sip Sa Bo is also the highest form my instructor taught. The deeper I dig, the more I believe the TSD history was created to instill national pride after the Japanese occupation. There's no way they are going to credit Tang Soo Do to Japan. It's a big reason why I focus on Karate as a whole and not just Tang Soo Do.
@@kputala I totally agree that Tang Soo Do is Korean Shotokan but the nature of Korean/Japanese relations at the time would never allow this to be admitted. Another thing that gets me is the il soo sik and ho sin sul is all over the place. I know Soo Bahk Do has 18 il soo siks and the club I was a member of had like 15 hands, 15 feet, 15 defenses then crossgrips, kneeling 1 steps. Other people from different schools had their own sets. So now older and practicing on my own I just have scrapped all 1 steps and focus on the 21 traditional hyungs and do heavy bag/ makiwara training. I don"t even tell people I do Tang Soo Do specifically. I just say I do Karate.
@John We're on exactly the same page, brother. Soo Bahk Do is NOT TSD and they say it themselves. I checked out a SBD school once but didn't care for it. To me, more is not better, better is better.
Basically it looks very similar to Japanese Shotokan Karate-Do. I'm a Shotokan Karate practitioner. I think I could learn this art easily because of my experience and back ground
Hi Gary! You're right on the money. I studied Shotokan after leaving Korea and getting my black belt and was shocked that it was practically identical. Tang Soo Do evolved further with Hwang Kee until he renamed it Soo Bahk Do, but the traditional version I learned in Korea is identical except for the Korean kicks. You could learn it extremely easy. Now in my personal training I don't look at what I do as Tang Soo Do, but just the art of Karate, and actually adapt the Shotokan and Okinawan way of performing techniques due to my knees. The lower kicks allow me to keep going.
TANG SOO!!!👊🏽
Tang Soo! Thanks for watching! 👊
I am a student of MOO DUK KWAN since 1974. .... I agree with your opinion 100%.. BTW, my lineage makes Kwanjangnim Hwang Kee my great grandfather!... I call what I practice 1st, TANGSOODO, 2nd TAEKWONDO..... I earned a Yu Dan 5 th degree before I went on to earn "Dans" in other systems... I am currently a Gu Dan 9th degree overal, and I am still a student and actively learning 58 years as of this writing!
Hello David! My instructor, the late Master Yun Tak Bong in South Korea, was a student of KJN Hwang Kee, but did not stay with the Moo Duk Kwan as he evolved into Soo Bahk Do. We are very similar as we both went on to train in different styles/arts, but my training now has become a very personal journey, combining all I've learned into my personal expression of the art. Age is just a number! 👊
This is mostly accurate. Duk Sung Son also studied with Won Kuk Lee. Grandmaster Son brought chung do kwan Tae Kwon Do to the USA.
Hello Peter, you're right, but my focus was not on Chung Do Kwan, but Tang Soo Do, and the fact that it is not a 2000 year old Korean art as is commonly taught. I learned of Duk Sung Son during my time studying Chung Do Kwan. Thanks for the info! 👍
This is Sabumnim Shawn Sharma of Seaside CA. I have been studying Tang Soo Do for 23 years now and have been teaching for the past 8 years. I really enjoyed your presentation. I wish you blessings and well wishes.
A pleasure to meet you Shawn! Thank you for your kind words, and I will continue to post more on Tang Soo Do, especially training at over 50. I have never made it to California yet, but one day I will! Blessings to you and your students!
Kevin W. Putala you are welcome to stay at my house. You can sleep in the guest bedroom and I will honor you in my dojang as a guest instructor. My Sabumnim taught me to always lookout for and respect other martial artists. It is a brotherhood in Tang Soo Do.
I just turned 37 years old. I have been doing Tang Soo Do ever since I was 14. I just received my second degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have decided to implement some ground work as well. What other styles have you studied?
Kevin W. Putala Age is just a number always remember that. My girlfriend is a 24 year old fitness model and aerobics instructor.
One thing you have to realize is that nearly 70% of all fights end up on the ground. Therefore, ground work is crucial. When I was winning local tournaments I felt great for a while until...until I sparred with Muay Thai Kickboxers. One shin kick to the thigh and I was DONE. Therefore I decided to study MUAY Thai. My sparring skill skyrocketed to new heights. I’m now comfortable with going both full contact and light contact. You cannot limit yourself to just Tang Soo Do because Tang Soo Do has a lot of limits. Out of 36 MUAY Thai Kickboxers I fought, I only won 12 of them. That’s not very good. The reason why I lost is because my shins were not conditioned, I didn’t know much about clenching, and I was not used to full contact sparring. The ones that I won were because my hands were very well conditioned and my kicks were a lot better. I just have to be honest.
Where are you training Tang Soo Do? I do it as well in Germany I'm 14 but 1st Gup and have learned a lot from the 8 years I've been there.
Hello! I live and train in Tampa, Florida USA. I lived in Grafenwoehr for 3 1/2 years 1988 - 1991. I taught Tang Soo Do there and also studied Shotokan Karate while I was there.
Hi just wondering if you have a list of references for the info in the vid?
Hi! Good question, I should have put them in the notes. I'll get one together and post it in the video description. Most of it came from Google searches of Hwang Kee's history from the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, run by his son, Articles on Chung Do Kwan founder Won Kuk Lee and his martial history, and more. I'll get on it and post it in the coming week. 👍
@@kputala Thank you very much. I've started teaching and looking into the history a lot more and trying to make sense of it all, your version seems much more likely than the "Tang Soo Do is thousands of years old" which just struck me as odd, I will still read further so your sources will be much appreciated, also we acknowlede the Chinese influence a lot but barely the Japanese which there is clearly a ton of, I've recently started Kyokushin and as other posts have said its forms are quite similar.
@@MegaAngryspoon I first realized something was up after receiving my black belt in Tang Soo Do while in Korea, and when I trained with a Shotokan guy in Germany saw that everything was practically identical! I had many questions for many years due to the internet not being around, and all TSD instructors and organizations stuck to it being a 1000 year old Korean style. I've found through studying several arts that there are way more similarities than differences, and that regardless of the art or style you learn, you must make it YOURS. Wishing you continued success in your training!
@@MegaAngryspoon The references are now in the video description. There are more articles and forums as well if you search. I found that to me, Hwang Kee's martial background just didn't quite make sense and could not be documented well. Yang Kuk Jin is a complete mystery with no one truly knowing who he was for a fact. Won Kuk Lee, while also not having many photos or video documentation, is documented as being a student of Gichin Funakoshi, who is a legendary martial artist with a well-documented lineage. I'm not disputing that Hwang Kee was a good martial artist or his contribution to martial arts, just that Tang Soo Do is not a solely Korean traditional art 1000+ years old. It is Shotokan Karate, brought to Korea in 1945 and when blended with Korean culture and arts (especially kicking) became what it is today, and further evolved through Hwang Kee and his son into Soo Bahk Do.
Sir Kevin A'm Training Tang Soo Do At Brazilian with Master Mike Edward Andrews, Tang Soo Do Moo Dukwan
That's great! I will still be creating training videos, but I will also be talking about applying it all in daily life to be a warrior for Christ. 👍Tang Soo! Stay healthy and stay safe!🙏
I study under grandmaster Mike Marsh.
We do moo duk Kwan tang soo do, but I think he broke away from them or something. He founded his own organization.
Hi Ben! GM Hwang Kee trademarked the name moo duk kwan as well as the emblem that we all know for Tang Soo Do. They even went after schools in court if they used either. So many people stopped associating with them and started their own organizations and changed the logo they use. I personally don't care for the Soo Bank Do and the moo duk kwan of today.
@@kputala I remember him telling us students that at one time he did get a cease letter in the mail from a lawyer to stop using the moo duk kwan patches and name. He said something about having to pay dues to the moo duk kwan or something like that as one of the reasons he broke away..
Grandmaster Marsh in his younger years would be with a tournament group called the Detroit all stars. I have a picture of them from the early 70s with chuck Norris and his crew. BoB wall is in the group.
When I seen that I knew I was in good hands. I thought that was pretty cool..
I'm just a white belt at 45 years old so I'm hoping I can at least reach black belt level someday..
Do you think it is important to study the history and roots of the art/style you study? Why or why not?
I believe it is important to study the origin and the mind of those who pioneered the art and style. Doing this, I believe will enhance expression, attention and intention to detail of what you are practicing . Based on your presentation and what I have studied about TSD, I see more Shotokan in this art than any other. And when the split occurred with the Shotokan instructor to TKD, do you believe (anyone) that the intention, attention and effectiveness to details from the original movements has been watered down?
Kevin W. Putala it is very important because it shows appreciation and gratitude.
@@tellitlikeitis5045 I agree totally!
Totally agree!
Jhoon Rhee not Ghee!
Haha, I caught it, and knew what you meant. It's weird, I saw your initial comment in my phone notification but can't see it anywhere on my channel or this video. Not sure if I got it all. I follow Jesse Enkamp's channel, The Karate Nerd, and he has said that in America he was told karate came from Japan, in Japan he was told it came from Okinawa, and in Okinawa he was told it came from China. I believe it's the same with TSD, as it came from Shotokan, and can be traced back to Okinawa and China. I am currently reading the Bubishi by Patrick McCarthy and wanting to grasp where Tang Soo Do's movements and forms originated and their original intent. Things such as this make the martial arts a lifelong study. Thanks for your comment and for watching! I appreciate it.
Nobody wants to admit that all martial arts come from Tai CHI IN CHINA ALL OF IT
I think many of the arts we know today have their roots there, but martial arts (methods of fighting) developed in their respective areas of the world as well. Without a doubt, I think China had the greatest effect in all martial arts as practitioners left China or travelled, and shared their skills with the world. 👍
Exactly, China, not the specific art of Tai Chi! You're right on the money Dan!
Very basic Style, with no nonsense techniques, that work, been studying The Self Defense moves of Tang Soo Do, very straight foward n Basic, works for me, along with various other Martial Arts. The Style doesn't make the man, the man makes the Style. Stick to the Basics n you will win evertime. I have a secret weapon, that is the back kick, which nobody has been able to Stop! Also, Hook. 66 now can't throw my leg around like I used to, but everything else works. Have Disabilities, but am still confident. I have developed my own System n people are quite impressed. So, I teach Self-defense.
😉🇺🇸🪖🥋🥷
@pcp.9834 I agree 100% and followed a similar path, studying various other styles and taking those techniques that work for, and suit me. The basics are the core of any system. They may not look flashy or exciting, but they work, and that's what matters.
👍 🥋 👊